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2013: ESO Vs FFXIV?Follow

#27 Mar 05 2013 at 2:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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That's just it though. If they can't make an offline game capable of sustaining my interest for only a hundred hours, how can they hope to make an MMORPG that holds my interest for a thousand days like FFXI has?
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#28 Mar 05 2013 at 2:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Bearing in mind that this was true of every Final Fantasy game -before- FFXI?
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#29 Mar 05 2013 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
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Creating a single player game that's worth playing for thousands of hours is not a thing that has ever happened.

That's what MMOs are for. A game that can evolve and grow over time will tend to retain your interest for much longer than a game that doesn't do that.

Expecting ESO to not hold your interest for a long time just because the single player Elder Scrolls games didn't isn't fair or reasonable. It will hold your interest if you enjoy the game, and won't if you don't.
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#30 Mar 05 2013 at 2:42 PM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
That's just it though. If they can't make an offline game capable of sustaining my interest for only a hundred hours, how can they hope to make an MMORPG that holds my interest for a thousand days like FFXI has?


To be fair though, how much of that was the content itself and how much of that was the community? I have a lot of time clocked in XI as well, but if I had to count how many hours were spent doing actual content (like quest stuff, even repeating to help others etc.) -- the time spent grinding or camping or just standing around watching my moogle spin vastly outweighs it. That's because Vana'diel was just a cool place to hang out with my friends. Then, when my friends largely all went away, the game did, too.

So yea, maybe they won't nail the formula, but if they fail it probably won't be because they didn't do the "offline" type stuff well.
#31 Mar 05 2013 at 3:24 PM Rating: Good
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I get lots of mileage out of TES & Fallout games. That saying "enjoy the journey, not the destination" rings true for me when it comes to those. I played Oblivion for years before ever completing the main quest line. Steam says I've played Skyrim for 1150 hours so far. Though I'm one of those people who leaves games on pause for extended periods so I suppose that's included. Still I've played it a lot.Smiley: lol
#32 Mar 05 2013 at 3:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
Honestly, it frustrates me when people will play a game like Skyrim for 50, 60, 80 hours and then have the audacity to call it boring. Even at around 40 hours, it's a sizable RPG, and longer than the vast majority of equally priced games! I mean, Diablo III took around 13 hours to beat if you were taking your time, and that new 3DS Castlevania game is barely 12. Smiley: bah


A game can be both boring and valuable in regards to return on investment. Skyrim absolutely was worth the price of admission and I enjoyed every minute I played it, that doesn't mean it isn't allowed to be called 'boring' after a certain point - It really depends on what you enjoy in a game. For me, it's all about character progression, min/maxing my stats (traditionally: leveling up), finding better items and becoming powerful in the RPG realm.

After 60-80 hours in Skyrim, only level 40 and no where near even 50% of the content complete, I was as powerful as I was going to get despite the low level and only having explored roughly 1/10 the entire map. I had the most powerful weapons, the most powerful armor and there was no challenge in terms of clearing out quest areas -- all of this came completely without cheats or shortcuts, just playing the game as it was presented to me.

There was nothing left for me to do except progress the story and explore the world, and without a carrot-on-a-stick motivation for better rewards I find such things boring, especially considering how predictable the story was.


Edited, Mar 5th 2013 5:01pm by Whales
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#33 Mar 05 2013 at 4:18 PM Rating: Good
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I didn't even know what an MMO was when I was playing the Ultima games. I remember I thought it was cool that I could transfer character between Bards Tale and Ultimas. I liked how deep Ultima 7 was especially. Ultima online came out and it was pretty fun. I mean there was nothing else like it.

I didn't see how they could turn a single player game into an mmo. I mean FFVII, FFVIII and FFX were all great games but it didn't seem possible to translate that single player experiences into an MMO, but FFXI was decent and different.

I didn't see how they could turn a RTS game into an mmo. I played WarCraft 1, 2 and 3 and thought they kept getting better. WoW seemed like it did alright.

I can completely see how they could turn the single player elder scrolls games into an MMO. Skyrim already feels like the single player quests in an MMO. So who knows if they will execute it correctly and make a great game? I do like the idea that they're not going to have a UI. I don't like the idea of the factions.

It all doesn't matter. It will come down to game play. If the game play of ARR is as tedious as FFXIV, ARR will fail. If ESO has horrible game play, it will fail too. This is why CoD rules the world, not because it's the best game but because it has the best game play and ends up being the most fun. There are just too many game options from all different genres to have to settle on poor game play and tedious experiences.
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#34 Mar 05 2013 at 5:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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It will come down to game play.


Disagree a bit here.

Guild Wars 2 is an example of a game with fantastic gameplay, but just very little reason to actually log in and play.

When push came to shove, I stopped playing GW2 in favor of playing FFXIV 1.0. I know that I'm just one person, and that others may have done the opposite, but what I'm saying is that you can't focus on gameplay and neglect other facets of the game, as well.

In fact, I'd argue that giving people a reason to log in is more important than the mindless "fun" factor of having polished game mechanics.
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#35 Mar 05 2013 at 7:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
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It will come down to game play.


Disagree a bit here.

Guild Wars 2 is an example of a game with fantastic gameplay, but just very little reason to actually log in and play.

When push came to shove, I stopped playing GW2 in favor of playing FFXIV 1.0. I know that I'm just one person, and that others may have done the opposite, but what I'm saying is that you can't focus on gameplay and neglect other facets of the game, as well.

In fact, I'd argue that giving people a reason to log in is more important than the mindless "fun" factor of having polished game mechanics.


I wouldn't even say the gameplay was fantastic--it was good for an MMO, which doesn't say a lot. GW2 had poor balance overall and there was no constructive effort made to correct its issues. In particular, there were lots of useless abilities and traits that were never brought up to a viable standard of play. They also severely limited the novelty of the gameplay with how strictly they limited the amount of abilities you could use. There was really no good basis for this decision; they would have benefited tremendously from a global cooldown or queuing system. It was a lazy way to ensure that they wouldn't have to even try to balance the classes holistically.

Having said that, where GW2 failed was the incentive system, as you indicated... no reason to log in and play, because you quickly reach a point where there's nothing meaningful to earn, if anything at all. In the early and mid game, it's not a problem, but it quickly becomes apparent by the midgame. I really don't even know if another game has botched this aspect worse than GW2.

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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#36 Mar 05 2013 at 8:07 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
Do I get killed for stating I played Skyrim until it suddenly, despite it's apparent strengths, suddenly, somehow, sarted to feel utterly boring? Maybe it was that I became far too strong for any enemy in the game, maybe it was that every Dwemer ruin looked the same...

... The first 10 hours or so were great indeed... But after the 15th dragon, I simply put down the controller and uninstalled.


Okay: either you put the game on baby mode and somehow plowed through several dungeons and a dragon every 35 minutes; or you played the game for long enough to become bored with it, in which case there's really no reason to complain.

Honestly, it frustrates me when people will play a game like Skyrim for 50, 60, 80 hours and then have the audacity to call it boring. Even at around 40 hours, it's a sizable RPG, and longer than the vast majority of equally priced games! I mean, Diablo III took around 13 hours to beat if you were taking your time, and that new 3DS Castlevania game is barely 12. Smiley: bah

I think when people refer to a single player game being boring. Is that the replay value is lacking. SKyrim was good for me the first playthrough(Idc for the combat system). Replayability for me is what most Final Fantasy or top quality japenese rpgs bring to the table. While there is alot of combat in both styles of rpgs. The former tend to show more variety in events and quests.

I had the same problem with skyrim and dragon age. Incredibly immersive the first run through. The second time just had a feeling of run, kill, run, kill, run, kill(Excluding the dialogue wheel in dragon age). I could deal with that if say the combat was as well done as it was in the demon/dark souls series.
#37Poubelle, Posted: Mar 05 2013 at 10:49 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I wouldn't say ESO vs FFXIV are going "head to head". lol
#38 Mar 05 2013 at 11:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh, it's on their radar, although not necessarily for competition reasons.

Everyone in the industry is watching ARR. If it fails a second time, they will know to not try a relaunch and just send any "failed" MMO off to free to play land.

If ARR succeeds, it will give the other game studios pause. No other MMO has ever really tried what they're doing. If SE can pull it off, then perhaps other studios will be able to buy out other's failed MMO properties, relaunch, and succeed as well.

Time will tell.
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I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#39 Mar 06 2013 at 5:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Honestly, it frustrates me when people will play a game like Skyrim for 50, 60, 80 hours and then have the audacity to call it boring.

Well, guess what: I played FFXIV 1.0 for several months until I realized that the white knight in shining armor that would deliver me from my feeling of emptiness simply didn't exist. And when a game gets as many raving reviews as Skyrim, you'd imagine it really deserve the praise. And now, to completely confuse you, I believe it really does.

I think Whales and sandpark are on the right track concerning one of my main issues. I simply became too strong (hard mode, if that's what the second-to-highest option was called, btw), all dragons started to look alike, and yes, in the end I killed two of them within 10 minutes. Arrow, arrow, arrow, run in with raised shield, circle to the flank, attack, block tail swipe, attack, block tail swipe, attack, block tail swipe, dragon dead, oh crap, those bones are too heavy for my weight cap.

I fully give Skyrim credits for the first 20 hours (10 was definitely an understatement, you're spot on). And 20 hours of fun was definitely worth the investment. But it simply failed to provide me with the twists, the awe, and the hilarious humor the Witcher did, because the whole story was presented in a way that made me care a lot more about the beauty of the landscape than its (soulless, stereotypical, unidimensional) inhabitants.

And that's where we should stop arguing. The Skyrim lore simply failed to catch my heart (and I read every single book I found! EVERY SINGLE ONE, because I wanted to be drawn in), and it succeeded with yours. Dragon Age also failed to do that, btw. It must be a matter of taste then.




Edited, Mar 6th 2013 6:52am by Rinsui
#40 Mar 06 2013 at 5:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Once I finished the Nightingale quest line for Thief my interest kind of petered out as well. I thought that was a great quest line but the main story progression really didn't hold my attention.
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#41 Mar 06 2013 at 10:48 AM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
It will come down to game play.


Disagree a bit here.

Guild Wars 2 is an example of a game with fantastic gameplay, but just very little reason to actually log in and play.

When push came to shove, I stopped playing GW2 in favor of playing FFXIV 1.0. I know that I'm just one person, and that others may have done the opposite, but what I'm saying is that you can't focus on gameplay and neglect other facets of the game, as well.

In fact, I'd argue that giving people a reason to log in is more important than the mindless "fun" factor of having polished game mechanics.


Thayos wrote:
Quote:
It will come down to game play.


Disagree a bit here.

Guild Wars 2 is an example of a game with fantastic gameplay, but just very little reason to actually log in and play.

When push came to shove, I stopped playing GW2 in favor of playing FFXIV 1.0. I know that I'm just one person, and that others may have done the opposite, but what I'm saying is that you can't focus on gameplay and neglect other facets of the game, as well.

In fact, I'd argue that giving people a reason to log in is more important than the mindless "fun" factor of having polished game mechanics.


That is because you are a FFXIV fan first and foremost, as there is really nothing in 1.0 that overshadows GW2.

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#42 Mar 06 2013 at 10:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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I dunno, I found GW2 boring as **** as well. I'm not a huge fan of 1.0 though.
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#43 Mar 06 2013 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
Do I get killed for stating I played Skyrim until it suddenly, despite it's apparent strengths,
suddenly, somehow, started to feel utterly boring?


I kind of felt the same way about Skyrim as well. It was awesome for the first couple weeks of playing, but quickly lost it's shine. I guess it might have been that I played Morrowind and Oblivion (which lost it's shine even sooner than Skyrim for me) as well so I had been there before. Compared to Morrowind the other two games didn't feel nearly as epic. Sure the graphics were better, as was the fighting, but exploration took a big hit in the newer titles. Being able to make any spell you could think of in Morrowind was also pretty awesome. Having levitate, night eye, and the boots of blinding speed made for some fun "skywalking".

Putting all of that into an MMO sounds like it will just have even more restrictions. That's just something that doesn't sit well with me. Somehow don't think they are going to let you permanently kill npcs and that's a travesty.

Also.. GW2 was the first game I bought for my new gaming PC a couple months ago. I played it for a couple weeks, got a guardian to 40 and promptly got bored of it. It might have been better if I had someone to play with however. The knowledge that leveling was essentially useless due to the welfare PvP system and no endgame made it feel pointless.
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#44 Mar 06 2013 at 4:02 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:

If ARR succeeds, it will give the other game studios pause. No other MMO has ever really tried what they're doing. If SE can pull it off, then perhaps other studios will be able to buy out other's failed MMO properties, relaunch, and succeed as well.

Time will tell.


The situation is completely different with other studios for the simple reason that SE is self-funding the game and thus can make all the decisions. Only Blizzard and SE have that kind of power in the MMO industry.

Poorer studios should know better.
#45 Mar 06 2013 at 6:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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That is because you are a FFXIV fan first and foremost, as there is really nothing in 1.0 that overshadows GW2.


No, I think it's because GW2 is incredibly boring.

It's a very pretty, polished game... but I'm now level 75, and there haven't been many fights I can't win by just buffing with a signet and riding out auto attack.

I'm also getting bored to tears by the leveling process of running to a heart, grinding out the quest, going to the nearby points of interests, telepoints and vistas, and then rinsing and repeating.

I'm only still playing so that I can finish my personal storyline. Doing so will allow me to free up space on my SSD drive with a clear conscious.
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#46 Mar 06 2013 at 10:44 PM Rating: Default
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As opposed to 1.0 where we just had leve grind and well leve grind and the ocaccional guild leve..... Yeah much less boring than GW2....

Not saying GW2 is made out of fun, but there are far more fun things to do, than in 1.0, PVP and WvsW alone makes 1.0 look like a game from the 1960.
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#47 Mar 06 2013 at 10:53 PM Rating: Excellent
I think we're talking about "boring" on different terms.

I've already said GW2 was the superior game in terms of mechanics and playability. However, the storyline of GW2 was incredibly boring. So, for me, playing the game felt pointless, because, why was I even playing?

FFXIV v1.x was much less polished, even in its final state. However, the storyline was far superior to that of GW2, which gave even the most mundane levequests a lot more purpose. For me, purpose & meaning > polished mechanics.

EDIT: I often cringe when I see people throw around the word "fun" in such an end-all way. Sure, "fun" is good, but "mindless fun" is lame.

Edited, Mar 6th 2013 8:54pm by Thayos
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#48 Mar 06 2013 at 11:14 PM Rating: Good
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I have no interest in ESO, and I've been a fan since Arena.

I liked Skyrim, but it was a bit overhyped, and ended up being, like other ES titles: find dungeon/cave, clear it, repeat. Don't get me wrong it was a very good game, but after a few memorable experiences the game just becomes routine.

GW2 was good/fun. It was just too short. The endgame just didn't do it for me and there was no reason to explore the area other than to get the exp.

I liked how the grind was 'hidden' and I loved the group dynamics. The world seemed alive, but it was more on the "arcade" side of MMO and ultimately didn't have the depth or immersion I'm looking for in a game.

Right now (even though it's pretty early on) ESO doesn't appear to do anything vastly different than other MMOs. What makes the ES series stick out to me are the unique encounters and quests that you stumble upon; like getting sucked into a painting or going to another demon world. I just don't think that single player experience is going to translate well to an MMO.

So, given the facts that I'll only play one MMO at a time and that I like the FF series a bit more, I'll stick with ARR for now.
#49 Mar 07 2013 at 12:06 AM Rating: Decent
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KaneKitty wrote:
I think both games tap into a sizable fanbase but will fail to recruit as many longtime core players as they hope due to cautious adherence to some (now) very well-worn MMORPG traditions.

Certainly, I don't envy either company, as the market for large franchise, WoW-inspired, broadly appealing, fantasy-themed MMORPGs is an astonishingly crowded one, indeed.



This. Though, I think ES fans are setting themselves up with extraordinarily high hopes. If it doesn't live up to what they expect it to be, the game will flop badly.

Edited, Mar 7th 2013 1:06am by Caia
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#50 Mar 07 2013 at 1:53 AM Rating: Default
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Well on that i guess different strokes for different folks, even tho i did not found GW2 story to be mind boggling or anything alike, i did not found XIV story any more compelling to me, i guess i am biased because i expect a lot more from a Final Fantasy. (Not bashing XIV, just saying i expected a lot more than what i saw)
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#51 Mar 07 2013 at 2:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well on that i guess different strokes for different folks, even tho i did not found GW2 story to be mind boggling or anything alike, i did not found XIV story any more compelling to me, i guess i am biased because i expect a lot more from a Final Fantasy. (Not bashing XIV, just saying i expected a lot more than what i saw)


That's a totally fair critique. In fact, when I talk about how great FFXIV's story was, I'm really referring to the "End of an Era" storyline that wasn't implemented until Yoshi-P took over.
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