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#1 Mar 11 2013 at 5:01 AM Rating: Decent
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was the paladin in 1.0 useless? i never played it and herd people sooking about it, did it not have super high def at 50? compared to the WAR?

Edited, Mar 18th 2013 6:56am by Wint Lock Thread:
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#2 Mar 11 2013 at 7:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Not useless, but not the best tank. They had super high defense, but no hate management tools.

They were great on single target if you let them build some hate, but for all-purpose, War had enough def (not many enemies did super high dmg requiring a plds def) and was amazing at holding hate due to aoe, dmg, and abilities.

Plus, a War tanking was doing nearly as much dmg as any other DD. They were broken...
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#3 Mar 11 2013 at 7:33 AM Rating: Good
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Actually, they were the best single target tank.

People just had no idea how to play it.

I'll get downvoted, but it's the simple truth.

People just wanted the spoonfed "provoke, flash, shield bash" combo.

It was harder than that.
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#4 Mar 11 2013 at 8:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Ehhhh... Maybe but it had nothing to do with best tank versus lesser tank...

PLD wasn't needed. War could do the same job but also deal dmg, speeding up fights. PLD didn't offer much that WAR couldn't do except on extremely hard fights, like Rivenroad Hard.
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#5 Mar 11 2013 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
Ehhhh... Maybe but it had nothing to do with best tank versus lesser tank...

PLD wasn't needed. War could do the same job but also deal dmg, speeding up fights. PLD didn't offer much that WAR couldn't do except on extremely hard fights, like Rivenroad Hard.

Which is exactly what I'm hoping not to see in ARR. If some jobs/classes are useless right out of the gate, the game will have difficulty finding and keeping subs.
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#6 Mar 11 2013 at 9:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Paladin was an okay tank, just not an optimal one, unfortunately.

In fights like Garuda for example, a well-geared Darklight Warrior was used over a Paladin if your LS had one because of the extra damage they could do to the adds in Phase 1.

For Coincounter (one of the raid mid-bosses), Warrior had superior HP and dodge moves from Pugilist to be able to avoid some of the tougher hits every 45 seconds, where as the Paladin had Invincible every 15 minutes.

So yeah, it's not a bad tank, but in 1.0 terms, Warrior was better. I hope they fix this with some of the new abilities each job gets in ARR.


Also, for a time, Gladiator had more HP than Paladin, so more people used Gladiator because you lost HP by changing to Paladin. When S-E saw that no one was playing PLD, they fixed the issue half a patch later, I was never sure why they picked that design decision originally.

Edited, Mar 11th 2013 8:07am by UltKnightGrover

Edited, Mar 11th 2013 12:36pm by UltKnightGrover
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#7 Mar 11 2013 at 9:50 AM Rating: Good
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PLD was a good tank, even superior for difficult fights. The problem was WAR usually meant a faster battle and except for Ifrit extreme and Rivenroad Hard the use of a PLD wasn't really warranted because fights weren't difficult enough.

Hopefully they will have a better balance in ARR so both are equally viable regardless of content difficulty.

Edited, Mar 11th 2013 11:52am by Belcrono
#8 Mar 11 2013 at 10:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Belcrono wrote:
PLD was a good tank, even superior for difficult fights. The problem was WAR usually meant a faster battle and except for Ifrit extreme and Rivenroad Hard the use of a PLD wasn't really warranted because fights weren't difficult enough.

Hopefully they will have a better balance in ARR so both are equally viable regardless of content difficulty.

Edited, Mar 11th 2013 11:52am by Belcrono


I wouldn't say they weren't difficult enough, as many fights required diverse strategies, many of which shyed away from 'tank and spank'.

This was a strength in my eyes, but I do wish Pld was more diverse to fit these types of situations, instead of changing fight strategies to fit with pld. All they have ot do is give PLD a few stances or means of dealing dmg, and this would change.
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#9 Mar 11 2013 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
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Hopefully they make it sort of like WoW (OMG Nuuuuuu!) was back in the Burning Crusade days With Warriors and Bear Druids. Have Paladin be a super main tank for bosses while Warrior and Monk(?) are more off tanks for adds. Maybe give paladins superior armor and threat tools for single target, while Warriors have superior AOE threat skills for adds. Warriors would get munched on by bigger bosses unless they were way overgeared but Paladins wouldn't be able to hold threat very well against 3+ mobs. This could give them each a defining role without stepping on any toes. I plan on maining paladin so hopefully they make it a more worthwhile job to play...
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#10 Mar 11 2013 at 2:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure how I should feel about this.

In FFXI it seemed like the big complaint was that not enough jobs could tank. You had to have one to form an xp party and there were never enough to go around.

Now that three or so jobs can reasonably tank, the complaint is that the job that seems like should be the most qualified to tank isn't the hands down winner every time.

I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.
#11 Mar 11 2013 at 3:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Xoie wrote:
I'm not sure how I should feel about this.

In FFXI it seemed like the big complaint was that not enough jobs could tank. You had to have one to form an xp party and there were never enough to go around.

Now that three or so jobs can reasonably tank, the complaint is that the job that seems like should be the most qualified to tank isn't the hands down winner every time.

I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.


It's not that really. The problem is 1 jobs ONLY use is tanking.

The other 2 jobs are great in other roles, and both are top notch DD's. If you ever had a party with 3 warriors, you just tell which one to tank, which to DD. IF you had a party with 3 Paladin's, you just fake d/c...
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#12 Mar 11 2013 at 5:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
Xoie wrote:
I'm not sure how I should feel about this.

In FFXI it seemed like the big complaint was that not enough jobs could tank. You had to have one to form an xp party and there were never enough to go around.

Now that three or so jobs can reasonably tank, the complaint is that the job that seems like should be the most qualified to tank isn't the hands down winner every time.

I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.


It's not that really. The problem is 1 jobs ONLY use is tanking.

The other 2 jobs are great in other roles, and both are top notch DD's. If you ever had a party with 3 warriors, you just tell which one to tank, which to DD. IF you had a party with 3 Paladin's, you just fake d/c...

Same if it's a party of 3 white mages, but that doesn't mean white mages are useless.
#13 Mar 11 2013 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
Belcrono wrote:
PLD was a good tank, even superior for difficult fights. The problem was WAR usually meant a faster battle and except for Ifrit extreme and Rivenroad Hard the use of a PLD wasn't really warranted because fights weren't difficult enough.

Hopefully they will have a better balance in ARR so both are equally viable regardless of content difficulty.

Edited, Mar 11th 2013 11:52am by Belcrono


I wouldn't say they weren't difficult enough, as many fights required diverse strategies, many of which shyed away from 'tank and spank'.

This was a strength in my eyes, but I do wish Pld was more diverse to fit these types of situations, instead of changing fight strategies to fit with pld. All they have ot do is give PLD a few stances or means of dealing dmg, and this would change.


What I meant was more that if you can do something at a quicker pace most people will do it which is what happened with WAR vs PLD in 1.0. The only place where that wasn't really an issue was when content was difficult enough to the point of risking a loss if you brought a WAR instead of PLD or at least lowered your chances by more than it was worth to have a slightly faster battle.
#14 Mar 11 2013 at 5:31 PM Rating: Good
Louiscool wrote:
Xoie wrote:
I'm not sure how I should feel about this.

In FFXI it seemed like the big complaint was that not enough jobs could tank. You had to have one to form an xp party and there were never enough to go around.

Now that three or so jobs can reasonably tank, the complaint is that the job that seems like should be the most qualified to tank isn't the hands down winner every time.

I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.


It's not that really. The problem is 1 jobs ONLY use is tanking.

The other 2 jobs are great in other roles, and both are top notch DD's. If you ever had a party with 3 warriors, you just tell which one to tank, which to DD. IF you had a party with 3 Paladin's, you just fake d/c...


One thing I actually liked about DC Universe Online was the role system they had for each character. Every type or character had a DD "stance" and a Role "Stance" which were Tank, Controller (buff/debuff), and healer. I think it'd be kind of interesting to see this in the FF setting. Iceand Fire characters, for example, were Tank/DD. In Tank stance / gear your DD was not negligible, but you weren't even close to the top on the DPS parse. However, all your moves garnered huge amounts of Enmity. You had to be at least one tier under-geared or slacking to lose hate to a DD, even with 3 of them. Then if you switched to DD stance and gear, you could easily top the chart if you were good at your job.

Take this into FFXIV: ARR and you get a whole new dynamic to it. You're not just a Paladin or DD, your EVERYTHING. You can choose to be a Tank Paladin, DD Archer, Tank GLD, Full-Mystic BLM and some sort of Forbidden SMN Brawler if you so choose. Obviously, we'd want some restriction (probably via combat skills or something) to keep it within the spirit of FF, but it would create more specialized options. Nobody likes when the game gets to: Fight X requires 3 of job A, 3 of job B, one of job C and one of job D, using strategy 34. Cookie-cutter builds, cookie-cutter party, and cookie-cutter stratgey.

Switch that to the above system. Could use a PLD single target, magic enmity building tank on the boss and a GLD AOE damage enmity building tank on the adds. Or 2 GLD damage enmity building tanks overlapping. Or the PLD and an AOE DD. Or an all-out zerg.

We don't need the trinity back, but we don't need a bunch of DD jobs who all have the Medic ability either.
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#15 Mar 11 2013 at 5:38 PM Rating: Good
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Tanking with PLD IMO was kind of like tanking with NIN in XI. It took the whole party AND a good player to manage hate properly... which in certain fights was not optimal. WAR is/was easy mode tank on some fights, but did actually take a lot of skill in the multi-mob fights. Neither one was pick up and play on the more random encounters, they took equal but opposite skill. I would like to see a few more options for PLD in 2.0, IMO it should be the main tank. WAR should be doing DD and tanking the adds, not fully replacing PLD in PUG fights.

Then again, I'd also like to see a third tank... hopefully a debuff AOE type that could sideline WAR and let it play full DD. Before that though I'd like a THF and two more caster options... Wishful thinking on all parts of course.
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#16 Mar 11 2013 at 6:21 PM Rating: Default
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Im heaps keen to play a paladin, black sheep syndrome
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#17 Mar 12 2013 at 4:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Perrin wrote:
Tanking with PLD IMO was kind of like tanking with NIN in XI. It took the whole party AND a good player to manage hate properly... which in certain fights was not optimal. WAR is/was easy mode tank on some fights, but did actually take a lot of skill in the multi-mob fights. Neither one was pick up and play on the more random encounters, they took equal but opposite skill. I would like to see a few more options for PLD in 2.0, IMO it should be the main tank. WAR should be doing DD and tanking the adds, not fully replacing PLD in PUG fights.

Then again, I'd also like to see a third tank... hopefully a debuff AOE type that could sideline WAR and let it play full DD. Before that though I'd like a THF and two more caster options... Wishful thinking on all parts of course.


War and Pld weren't anywhere near equal in skill that they took to play. Surely you jest. I might be assuming, because I don't know if your sig is current. Having only gotten Gld/Pld to 43, you would have missed out on valuable experience to back your opinion up. War is easy mode on single target and easier mode on multiple mobs thanks to the free weapon skill heal it had. When you can charge into a room hit Sentinel and get 1k tp (used to be 1500 before Steel Cyclone nerf) do a 3 hit combo that near kills or kills every mob while taking your HP from near death to Full. (Oh, don't forget about the added stun) That's as face roll as you get. Couple that with the parry ability and a low cost frontal swing that does a little over melee damage,(I've been able to get up to 4 Overpowers in a row) and you are GOD. In a pinch you don't even need to combo, just Mighty Strikes and Raw Cyclone. FULL hp and most likely kill whatever (and stun if not dead!).

Everything I just listed, PLD could never dream of doing that. Had they not gave PLD such a high delay on Spirits Within, PLD might not have been so overlooked. (Probably shouldn't have removed Circle Blade either and made it restore MP on hit) It was actually like 2 mins+ (can't recall exactly) before they they lowered it to 1 min. And to combo it, you had to block. (While Cyclone is a nice 30 secs) In a quite odd move, PLD actually had to run behind a mob to combo, while War just gets to face roll from the front, or side. In a pinch, just Hallowed Ground and Run Away!

You just sacrifice everything for minimal gains while Warrior has more options. With quadruple melds I've seen Paladins with 5000+ HP. They sacrifice all other stats just for that. Yet war can sit at 4500 with added STR or ATT/ACC.

I wouldn't mind if PLD is the main tank, but I wouldn't mind if they did have 3 tanks and made them very situational, but doable if you didn't have the preferred tank. Paladin is a very fun class. I hope it's brought up to par.
#18 Mar 12 2013 at 6:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Xoie wrote:
I'm not sure how I should feel about this.

In FFXI it seemed like the big complaint was that not enough jobs could tank. You had to have one to form an xp party and there were never enough to go around.

Now that three or so jobs can reasonably tank, the complaint is that the job that seems like should be the most qualified to tank isn't the hands down winner every time.

I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.


It's not that really. The problem is 1 jobs ONLY use is tanking.

The other 2 jobs are great in other roles, and both are top notch DD's. If you ever had a party with 3 warriors, you just tell which one to tank, which to DD. IF you had a party with 3 Paladin's, you just fake d/c...

Same if it's a party of 3 white mages, but that doesn't mean white mages are useless.


1) I never said paladin was useless
2) WHM could absolutely DD in 1.0 and was a top notch aoe mage, preferred in some cases to blm because their aoe spells were on a short cooldown, so for chocobo escort they are amazing. You would regularly have 2 whms in any party, and they had a damage dealing stance. I would not quit 3 whm party, I would disband a 2 pld party.

Paladin was the only job in 1.0 where more than 1 was useless. I would stack any other job but Paladin. Don't pretend pld was some god to tanking because it will never be fixed that way. It wasn't. It was directionless and lacking.
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#19 Mar 12 2013 at 3:24 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
Paladin was the only job in 1.0 where more than 1 was useless. I would stack any other job but Paladin. Don't pretend pld was some god to tanking because it will never be fixed that way. It wasn't. It was directionless and lacking.


If I'm not mistaken the game that they were making and then used as 1.0 didn't intend to have primary tanks. I remember hearing about multiple threat mechanic changes. I think they were just trying to build upon that flawed system where a job like paladin wasn't needed. Hopefully in 2.0 they revamped the whole system and give them the tools they require to actually be paladins. Without the use of a 2handed weapon or dual wielding i don't ever foresee paladin in this game doing much damage. So I guess I wouldn't really expect to see more than one in a group unless you have to fight two big bosses at once or trade off tanking like in WoW.



Edited, Mar 12th 2013 5:27pm by DamienSScott
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#20 Mar 12 2013 at 9:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, giving them better aoe hate grabbing tools would help alot.
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#21 Mar 12 2013 at 9:37 PM Rating: Good
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They also need to make the shield more useful. Even though 1.0 was flawed, Deflection was very godly. You could actively cycle all the shield abilities with the timers while using stoneskin to make the other shield skills deflection-like in nature. With hate and damage mitigation, the lack of PLD dmg might be "OK." War could still tank if you wanted to just go balls deep. Still not sure what their purpose of Paladin was/is atm. I hope we get some information on that soon.
#22 Mar 13 2013 at 2:32 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't really understand how people are coming up with info saying paladin is worthless. I've not heard of anyone using warrior as a tank and be serious about it in any of the end game dungeons. It would be silly to use a war as tank in the AV, CC, or rivenroad or if fit extreme. Yes warrior could manage hate better for multiple targets, but if they didn't have a whm there with cure ready, they'd end up face down in the dirt. Anytime you'd be fighting multiple targets they wouldn't be "boss" like mobs. They'd be fodder mobs. Warrior was basically the goto tank when you needed lots of damage all at once for fights that last a minute or two max. Anything longer than that it just wouldn't be feasible to keep a warrior over the paladin.
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#23 Mar 13 2013 at 4:20 AM Rating: Decent
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How many times do people have to say that, "no one said Paladin is worthless," before they stop? Then you go on to say that using a war is "silly." Pure sophistry.

I remember tanking CC with War for the mid boss and Paladin for the last fight. (17 min runs) It worked out better that way because we were all relic monks wailing away at Chimera. Paladin held hate better (as long as we didn't open with Shoulder Tackle). AV is so easy you can just faceroll with War all the way and kill Miser in 3 mins. (War would lose hate if he didn't collusion. And there were some 2k+ Howling Fists being thrown around). Parry on Coin Counter negates dmg to 0. Shield block didn't do that, only a %.Smiley: tongue

There are specific fights where I wouldn't suggest War. (Monk relic leve) Though, I wouldn't want to do Ifrit X with a war tank either. I'm afraid 2-3 fights where Paladin is the optimal choice was kinda clear. The game didn't make room for Paladin.

(For high lvl NMs Def didn't do much) It pretty much made who had the highest HP the winner! As far as tanking goes, a War with 6000+ HP is really good.

All the Paladin love doesn't change how 1.0 went down. Just accept it, and hope there is better balance in ability/weapon skill efficacy between the tanks.

The most important thing of all though, is that content makes use of the jobs. (Great duh). Paladin's failure was obviously due to the game itself. Yoshi pulled jobs out of his ***. 2.0 is his baby, so it's looking very probable that content might be designed more evenly. Meh, who knows.

#24 Mar 13 2013 at 4:35 AM Rating: Good
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Here's to hoping GDLYL. I really don't want to main another job that ends up being useless x.x
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#25 Mar 13 2013 at 6:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
There are specific fights where I wouldn't suggest War. (Monk relic leve) Though, I wouldn't want to do Ifrit X with a war tank either. I'm afraid 2-3 fights where Paladin is the optimal choice was kinda clear. The game didn't make room for Paladin.


Exactly. For the general population, War did fine. I never completed any of the upper tier content, I.E. Rivenroad Hard, Ifrit Extreme.

I did do EVERY OTHER THING. There was alot of it. There were many difficult missions, hamlets, and many of us considered Garuda to be really tough content. Don't point to 2 events and tell me that justifies Paladin as the best tank. I tanked on warrior in everything else and did great, because of damage mitigation and superior HP.

If you were happy with Paladin, I'm happy for you. I and most others were not. I don't see how your rosey garland goggles are helping anything, but PLD needs an overhaul the same way Monk is getting one. (Pre-emptive defense: I'm not saying Monk was useless. I'm just pointing to the already-talked-about job overhaul)

Edited, Mar 13th 2013 8:29am by Louiscool

Edited, Mar 13th 2013 8:30am by Louiscool
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#26 Mar 13 2013 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
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Ya, I know what you mean. Monk was far from useless lol. OMG the dmg Smiley: eek I believe, if I remember correctly, that the Monk change was due to the fact that it didn't stand out. It's abilities didn't give off a certain "Monk-ness" It was just a job with hand-to-hand that just happened to be called monk but didn't have the skill set to set it apart.

#27 Mar 13 2013 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Monks where lame, they never yelled "Wataahhhh" After some kick or something <.< COME ON SE!!!
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#28 Mar 13 2013 at 2:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
Monks where lame, they never yelled "Wataahhhh" After some kick or something <.< COME ON SE!!!


This is true, and throughout the Job storyline, they never fought against any groups of ninjas that formed a circle around you and then jumped in 1 at a time. Bullsh*t.
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#29 Mar 13 2013 at 6:29 PM Rating: Default
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is it just me or was everything kinda crappy compared to black mage and warrior in FFXIV? I didn't play that much, but people didn't really want me on Dragoon.
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#30 Mar 14 2013 at 7:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Poubelle wrote:
is it just me or was everything kinda crappy compared to black mage and warrior in FFXIV? I didn't play that much, but people didn't really want me on Dragoon.


nah just PUG perceptions. A lot of the casual players thought every job sucked but those 2. ****, I've lead parties where members sent me tells complaining that I invited a monk. People are stupid. This is why I loved parsing things. It was always fun to point out that the monk did more dmg than that sh*ttily geared blm complainer.

Edited, Mar 14th 2013 9:31am by Louiscool
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#31 Mar 14 2013 at 7:02 PM Rating: Good
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GDLYL wrote:
War and Pld weren't anywhere near equal in skill that they took to play. Surely you jest. I might be assuming, because I don't know if your sig is current.


I thought I worded things well enough to suggest that a well played PLD still required skill from teammates, and that a skilled WAR tanking certain AOE fights required a similar level of skill. I also mentioned that WAR is easy mode tanking and because of that more people play it or demand it in PUGs which IMO leads to even less skilled PLD tanks to choose from (due to lack of experience).

My sig is/was current, or fairly close. I do not have end game experience with PLD, however I do have experience with it up to the same point I did with WAR. I've always been the type of player that doesn't get the best gear first, so I have to make up for that with skill.... from what I played, I did not have the skill to be a good PLD without support of my party... something that was hard to guarantee in PUGs. I do however have good experience with WAR and PLD tanks in almost every boss fight/primal/dungeon while playing as everything in my sig that's at 50, so I'm VERY familiar with how the hate bar progressed or became static and at which points during various fights AND the amount of holding back required and the duration for both tanks to be successful.
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#32 Mar 15 2013 at 1:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Poubelle wrote:
is it just me or was everything kinda crappy compared to black mage and warrior in FFXIV? I didn't play that much, but people didn't really want me on Dragoon.


The #1 damage output on the most difficult fight 1.0 had to offer came from Dragoons. Perhaps you had experiences with people who were as open minded as you.
#33 Mar 15 2013 at 2:11 AM Rating: Default
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Perrin wrote:
GDLYL wrote:
War and Pld weren't anywhere near equal in skill that they took to play. Surely you jest. I might be assuming, because I don't know if your sig is current.


I thought I worded things well enough to suggest that a well played PLD still required skill from teammates, and that a skilled WAR tanking certain AOE fights required a similar level of skill. I also mentioned that WAR is easy mode tanking and because of that more people play it or demand it in PUGs which IMO leads to even less skilled PLD tanks to choose from (due to lack of experience).

My sig is/was current, or fairly close. I do not have end game experience with PLD, however I do have experience with it up to the same point I did with WAR. I've always been the type of player that doesn't get the best gear first, so I have to make up for that with skill.... from what I played, I did not have the skill to be a good PLD without support of my party... something that was hard to guarantee in PUGs. I do however have good experience with WAR and PLD tanks in almost every boss fight/primal/dungeon while playing as everything in my sig that's at 50, so I'm VERY familiar with how the hate bar progressed or became static and at which points during various fights AND the amount of holding back required and the duration for both tanks to be successful.


You're somewhat vague, but that's ok. I'm curious, can you tell me which content with multiple monsters required skillful play from Warrior? Unless, exp parties is defined as content. Even then, I'd still be interested to learn. Is it wrong of me to have the opinion that, if you haven't used Paladin end game, then you wouldn't be able to make an informed assessment comparing the two? While I can respect your opinion, I don't agree on the grounds that simply being in a party with a Paladin doesn't give you that jobs experience. While we may have the presence of mind, I found that my job was more effective if I knew the tank personally. Only because you get used to their play style. They usually informed us when certain things were applicable/NA. I say that only because you said you had no Paladin end game experience, then proceeded to say you had good experience with WAR and PLD....Smiley: dubious If that's what you mean when you said you worded things well... Smiley: oyvey

Edited, Mar 15th 2013 9:07am by GDLYL
#34 Mar 15 2013 at 4:55 PM Rating: Good
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If Yoshi is following the fight mechanic design of WoW and other MMOs, I think you'll find that any tank class will be sought after and completely viable.
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#35 Mar 15 2013 at 5:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Transmigration wrote:
If Yoshi is following the fight mechanic design of WoW and other MMOs, I think you'll find that any tank class will be sought after and completely viable.




I'm hoping that's true...I play Paladins in most games, but even then, staying Warrior for tanking doesn't seem too bad

Edited, Mar 15th 2013 5:19pm by Gelthidor
#36 Mar 15 2013 at 5:44 PM Rating: Good
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GDLYL wrote:
I say that only because you said you had no Paladin end game experience, then proceeded to say you had good experience with WAR and PLD....Smiley: dubious If that's what you mean when you said you worded things well... Smiley: oyvey


Is it not obvious that most of my experience with those jobs is supporting them via another job by either placing myself properly, giving them the appropriate song and not the rest of the PT, knowing how they need to tank certain mobs, going nuts or holding back, etc....

For WAR AOE tanking I'm referring to non-world mob situations. Primals, dungeons, and a few of the job/story related boss fights with minions. You could get by with a half-**** WAR in a lot of situations, but a GOOD WAR made a lot of the fights successful.

It is wrong of you to have the opinion that fighting alongside a handful of good tanks and a buttload of mediocre ones via PUGs from shouts is not enough information for me to see how the jobs perform differently AND effectively/non-effectively in given situations with players of a certain skill. Yes from personal experience for PLD I'm lacking a few skills (one of which is a game changer) to compare it to WAR at 50, but I can compare how tanking with WAR was up to the point I am with PLD to make an accurate statement on the personal skills it takes to operate either one as well. Both sets of information combined give me a personal view of both tanks and I stand by my wording. Please feel free to rip this apart to try and say something similar to what I'm saying...
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#37 Mar 15 2013 at 6:57 PM Rating: Default
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Perrin wrote:
GDLYL wrote:
I say that only because you said you had no Paladin end game experience, then proceeded to say you had good experience with WAR and PLD....Smiley: dubious If that's what you mean when you said you worded things well... Smiley: oyvey


Is it not obvious that most of my experience with those jobs is supporting them via another job by either placing myself properly, giving them the appropriate song and not the rest of the PT, knowing how they need to tank certain mobs, going nuts or holding back, etc....

For WAR AOE tanking I'm referring to non-world mob situations. Primals, dungeons, and a few of the job/story related boss fights with minions. You could get by with a half-**** WAR in a lot of situations, but a GOOD WAR made a lot of the fights successful.

It is wrong of you to have the opinion that fighting alongside a handful of good tanks and a buttload of mediocre ones via PUGs from shouts is not enough information for me to see how the jobs perform differently AND effectively/non-effectively in given situations with players of a certain skill. Yes from personal experience for PLD I'm lacking a few skills (one of which is a game changer) to compare it to WAR at 50, but I can compare how tanking with WAR was up to the point I am with PLD to make an accurate statement on the personal skills it takes to operate either one as well. Both sets of information combined give me a personal view of both tanks and I stand by my wording. Please feel free to rip this apart to try and say something similar to what I'm saying...


I have no idea what you're trying to say by your last sentence. However, you're starting to sound insecure in your position. I don't know you sir. Nothing you did in 1.0 is obvious. You also talk in circles. If you believe your position can be ripped apart, then you should evaluate and adjust accordingly. Being stubborn is your right. You can delude yourself into thinking that observing is on par with personal experience. You seem to have a problem expressing your views effectively as well as objectively (the latter because you lack the personal experience but insist that you are 'informed'). Admitting that you have no experience, followed by stating that it's sufficient enough to make and educated assessment, is what I'm addressing.

Ok, you brought up supportive rolls. So, in the easy Ifrit fight, it is the job of the DPS to not be a burden on the party. Don't take needless damage and save the self healing monk skill for Vulcan Burst. White Mage should be focused on the tank. Taking the time to heal a DPS would increase the of Eruption risk on the White Mage. That is your supportive role. Now, your contention is, and I'm following your logic, is that you have 'good' experience of the White Mage job because you understand that ONE aspect in that particular fight.

In Cutter's Cry, we used 1 Black Mage 1 White Mage 1 Paladin and 5 Monks. Now opening with shoulder tackle is bad for initial hate, plus it will stun him, preventing a shield blocking chance for Phalanx,that could be used in securing a better threat foundation. To break the tail, it's better to Invigorate before the fight and toss a chakram and raw Dragon kick. Doing the combo will also stun Chimera causing the issue earlier mentioned. Too many stuns throughout the fight builds hate quickly so you should only stun the devastating Voice of the Dragon/Ram. If you get red hate, turn off Fist of Fire etc. How is me knowing my role in that dynamic giving me Paladin experience? And our Paladin is a very good one. All I'm doing is my job as a monk. What the Paladin is doing is unknown to me. I'm not the one experiencing it. By your logic, you can then just pick up Paladin and tank it no problem because you understand how to not pull hate. This is not me telling you, "STFU you don't know what you're talking about." This is me addressing your choice of words and your obstinate defense of it.

If you fought Ifrit Extreme, you'd understand even more how DIFFERENT the roles are for jobs are in that fight. If you follow the path of another job, you will get the party defeated. My role on Ifrit Exreme was Warrior, meaning my job was to stand in front when ever it was safe for the tank, and use Vengeance to deal extra damage while taking out my horn. It was also to to deal with the middle nails. What the other jobs were doing in that fight was not my interest, unless they placed me in that role. If I were to switch to Whm, Pld, Mnk, or Brd, I'd have to learn the fight from that perspective, ergo adding more knowledge of the fight. Me being on only one job, limits my information on it. While I understand what other jobs are doing theoretically, I admit my personal ignorance.

The biggest flaw in your reasoning is that even though you can watch someone fight Ifrit Extreme on a Youtube video, the actual experience through your own person, is not "similar" or "good."

I have no idea what your 'real' contention is. Mine however, is telling you that if you haven't experienced Paladin end game, you can't formulate an accurate comparison between the two stating that they take equal or similar skill. Feel free to share your experiences on Warrior and how you do various things. There is no need to argue about that. Remember, I only responded to you when you stated that they were equal in skill. Don't twist it into anything else.






Edited, Mar 15th 2013 9:12pm by GDLYL
#38 Mar 16 2013 at 2:14 PM Rating: Decent
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I honestly have faith in SE's devs, so I'm sure that we'll see PLD getting more balanced for tanking. Maybe they'll add some fights that really needs the better armor or something...I can see Warrior and Dragoon being better tanks in the beginning, and then near the end game, I can see them adding some use for Paladins.

#39 Mar 16 2013 at 6:53 PM Rating: Good
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#40 Mar 16 2013 at 9:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Xoie wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Xoie wrote:
...I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.

It's not that really. The problem is 1 jobs ONLY use is tanking.
The other 2 jobs are great in other roles, and both are top notch DD's. If you ever had a party with 3 warriors, you just tell which one to tank, which to DD. IF you had a party with 3 Paladin's, you just fake d/c...

Same if it's a party of 3 white mages, but that doesn't mean white mages are useless.


They would be if Black Mage managed to be a superior healer while also dealing lots of damage, though.
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#41 Mar 17 2013 at 7:13 AM Rating: Default
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Perrin wrote:
If you're only doing your job and don't know how the other jobs fit into the picture, you're playing wrong


"While I understand what other jobs are doing theoretically, I admit my personal ignorance."

That's a very clever strawman. I remember asking you not to twist what I said.

Perrin wrote:
I do however have good experience with WAR and PLD tanks in almost every boss fight/primal/dungeon while playing as everything in my sig that's at 50, so I'm VERY familiar with how the hate bar progressed or became static and at which points during various fights AND the amount of holding back required and the duration for both tanks to be successful.


Several posts ago, I pointed out the fact that you were being vague. I was very curious why you had an issue giving specificity in certain situations supporting your position. A quick glance at your dungeon/Notorious Monster history made it very clear. Fighting Ifrit, Moogle, and Thousand Maws of To To Rak doesn't give you "good" experience in "almost every" boss fight/primal/dungeon. You can twist that anyway you see fit. You did ZERO level 50 dungeons. No Batraal, Miser, Coin Counter, Myrmidon Princess, and Chimera. I gave you specific information on those fights, not knowing you hadn't the faintest idea what I was talking about. This is not an ad hominem, you were purposefully being disingenuous. While this was initially about you having personal experience, it has now digressed into you having experience, period. Smiley: disappointed If you're going to be dishonest about play experience, you probably shouldn't make your history public, sir.

Edited, Mar 17th 2013 9:30am by GDLYL
#42 Mar 17 2013 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
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It is totally not that serious man... No need to sound elitist, it's his experience and opinion.. He never even said that WAR took as much skill was PLD Just that WAR did take some skill to master. Whether or not that is globally true is for whomever played the class to decide. Just because he didn't complete all of the content that came out with both classes doesn't mean his experiences are completely wrong and he should be shamed for them. His OPINION was over what content he had completed and I for one think that's plenty for the point he was making.

I assume WAR did take some skill, as in you couldn't just go in and beat your face against the keyboard or sit on your controller and **** out a good tank rotation. You both pretty much had the same point, but apparently it wasn't the same enough to not warrant walls of bitter angst. Chill out and play FFIV, the Pally **** of FFs and call it a day XD.

Edited, Mar 17th 2013 4:07pm by DamienSScott
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#43 Mar 17 2013 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
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GDLYL wrote:
While this was initially about you having personal experience, it has now digressed into you having experience, period. Smiley: disappointed If you're going to be dishonest about play experience, you probably shouldn't make your history public, sir.


This isn't about watching a video about content, it's about experiencing it... and I have. I think you need to get laid or something man. You have a serious problem... maybe one of the forum trolls or resident pessimists is contagious... I dunno, but it's quite obvious no one can have a conversation with you unless they drink your Kool-Aid and play by your rules and your rules alone.
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#44 Mar 17 2013 at 4:59 PM Rating: Default
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DamienSScott wrote:
It is totally not that serious man... No need to sound elitist, it's his experience and opinion.. He never even said that WAR took as much skill was PLD Just that WAR did take some skill to master. Whether or not that is globally true is for whomever played the class to decide. Just because he didn't complete all of the content that came out with both classes doesn't mean his experiences are completely wrong and he should be shamed for them. His OPINION was over what content he had completed and I for one think that's plenty for the point he was making.

I assume WAR did take some skill, as in you couldn't just go in and beat your face against the keyboard or sit on your controller and **** out a good tank rotation. You both pretty much had the same point, but apparently it wasn't the same enough to not warrant walls of bitter angst. Chill out and play FFIV, the Pally **** of FFs and call it a day XD.

Edited, Mar 17th 2013 4:07pm by DamienSScott



I was very specific on the abilities of both War and Pld, and how they differ in MANY situations. He brought up his opinion on "almost every" situation vaguely. Which is why I pointed it out. The usefulness depended on the content. If you didn't do the content, how can you determine the usefulness? (My main argument) How is saying you did dungeons to gain 'good' experience, but actually not doing them sit with you? Pretend all you want that I'm being "elite." I've been very clear, and polite on where I stood. If opinions were important, then that's all it would take to win a debate right? Knowledge gained through experience would hold to value because we can all hide behind, "It's MY opinion." That line of thinking is why everyone thinks they're an expert, while watching from the outside. "He should have done this/that!" It's interesting you ran to his defense against my opinion though. My opinion isn't valid right? Even if you assumed I found it serious, why is my opinion that it's serious less valid? If i'm elite, then what is he? Where is your objectivity, sir? You addressed my so called elitist words. Why didn't you address his dishonesty?

You suggested I chill out? I assure you I'm quite calm. Why wouldn't I be? There was an slight air of smugness in my post rather than anger if anything. Not because I think I'm better, but to finally understand why he was wording his opinion in circles. His lack of experience, which was the foundation, put an end to it. Even if he had responded, there would be no need for me to reply.

Did I say you could ****/sit on the control device or choice and win the fight? Or did I list specific tools in the Warrior skill-set that made it overpowered/very easy to do anything? If you're going to argue against me, please do so intelligently. If in the end my position is wrong, I would have gained something. That's my purpose for a healthy argument. Your sanctimony *in my opinion,* has no power here. Address my argument (words) directly, and not your feelings.

Are you that person who feels so uncomfortable by two people arguing, that you make it all about yourself and your feelings? Rather than let the two adults hash it out themselves, you feel the need to play peace keeper, or pick a side to gang up on the other. You then interject sanctimonious superiority, (which isn't elitist at all right?) in an effort to stop it. I will enjoy 2.0 good sir. I hope you do as well.

Edited, Mar 17th 2013 7:06pm by GDLYL
#45 Mar 17 2013 at 5:05 PM Rating: Default
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Perrin wrote:
GDLYL wrote:
While this was initially about you having personal experience, it has now digressed into you having experience, period. Smiley: disappointed If you're going to be dishonest about play experience, you probably shouldn't make your history public, sir.


This isn't about watching a video about content, it's about experiencing it... and I have. I think you need to get laid or something man. You have a serious problem... maybe one of the forum trolls or resident pessimists is contagious... I dunno, but it's quite obvious no one can have a conversation with you unless they drink your Kool-Aid and play by your rules and your rules alone.


Your character says otherwise. You can insult me anyway you see fit. I will more than gladly listen to your arguments, when you decide to do so. So far you've only made claims. Claims, which I believe wouldn't have existed had you retained the experience. That is all. It's also hard to share ideas with a liar, sir. I shared my Kool-Aid with the class. I thought you'd have said, "no, I did that fight with a Warrior, but It took skill because *Insert valid story derived from experience here.* Like I stated before, there would be no further need to argue with you, because your experience, and your interpretation of it is valid. If what I said is rude to you in any way, then I assure you, I'm not the one with the serious problem.

Edited, Mar 17th 2013 7:08pm by GDLYL
#46Poubelle, Posted: Mar 17 2013 at 5:40 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) when it comes to this, the argument is pretty much exhausted. stop spamming both of you, or I'll report.
#47 Mar 17 2013 at 7:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sheesh, you missed the point entirely. Also, no one here is really arguing other than yourself. I never said you didn't have a completely valid point, which I'm inclined to believe you do. You have actually played the game and experienced the I was just trying to point out that you were making way too big of deal out of his opinion and experiences with the game. You may have had more insight due to content completion but due to his experience playing the game he came to his own conclusion. There is nothing wrong about either of your opinions' but you just really seemed to want to argue a very moot point considering you both pretty much agreed that paladin was flawed in 1.0. I personally wasn't able to play 1.0, not for lack of desire but I apologize for all of us that weren't able to exhaust all content with every job.

I was simply trying to point out the futility of arguing about this subject. My referencing to improper controller use was simply a joke, not a flagrant attack aimed at you. And.. if he didn't bring up exact counterpoints as to where warrior took skill or whatever the issue was, could it not be because the content in question was so utterly underwhelming that it didn't warrant the capacity to be memorable? I enjoyed your insight on the tank jobs in 1.0 but your delivery didn't need to be so aggressive.
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#48 Mar 17 2013 at 7:29 PM Rating: Good
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GDLYL wrote:
You can insult me anyway you see fit.


There was no insult, implied or otherwise... It just appears from my brief experience "chatting" with you that you could use a stress relieving activity in your life. Unless you are a monk or a priest abstaining from the act, it is a medical fact that getting some is one of the most stress relieving activities a human can do.

I'm done talking with you about tanks. Damien seems to get what I was saying, I don't know what is prohibiting you from comprehending and honestly I no longer care....
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#49 Mar 17 2013 at 9:21 PM Rating: Decent
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DamienSScott wrote:
Sheesh, you missed the point entirely. Also, no one here is really arguing other than yourself. I never said you didn't have a completely valid point, which I'm inclined to believe you do. You have actually played the game and experienced the I was just trying to point out that you were making way too big of deal out of his opinion and experiences with the game. You may have had more insight due to content completion but due to his experience playing the game he came to his own conclusion. There is nothing wrong about either of your opinions' but you just really seemed to want to argue a very moot point considering you both pretty much agreed that paladin was flawed in 1.0. I personally wasn't able to play 1.0, not for lack of desire but I apologize for all of us that weren't able to exhaust all content with every job.

I was simply trying to point out the futility of arguing about this subject. My referencing to improper controller use was simply a joke, not a flagrant attack aimed at you. And.. if he didn't bring up exact counterpoints as to where warrior took skill or whatever the issue was, could it not be because the content in question was so utterly underwhelming that it didn't warrant the capacity to be memorable? I enjoyed your insight on the tank jobs in 1.0 but your delivery didn't need to be so aggressive.


I know what it is you're saying, and I completely respect it. Especially in the manner you just presented it. I have exchanged ideas on other's opinions before. This isn't always true, but two reasonable people debating usually comes to a faster conclusion when the facts are presented summarily. They either agree to disagree, or one person admits their ideological position needs reworking. Dancing around the bush using logical fallacies usually results in a longer wait for the conclusion. It usually devolves into, (who has less of a life, who's more over weight, who who has a less *** etc). In the end, who resorted to using the assumed state of the other person's real life? He still refuses to address my exact words. I have done nothing but only address his opinions. It's why I asked him if his sig was updated. I didn't go investigating to insult him or to be more elite than him, like you suggested. Even if I'm wrong, I stated my wrong position clearly. I think you have me mistaken for someone else. I debate in hopes that I may be found wrong and could add to my information. It's hard for humans to admit defeat. It's a lot easier when you place your cards on the table so the world can than impart their own views on you. There was nothing emotional about my position. Arguing isn't the end of the world. It's not that serious. (That's a helpful mindset for an intimate relationship FYI) It's wrong however, to argue dishonestly, as it corrupts everything.

Not doing content = good experience and bring my lack of a *** life isn't an insult. It's clear how he perceives things. I will do everyone a favor and also drop it. My apologies.



Edited, Mar 17th 2013 11:28pm by GDLYL
#50 Mar 18 2013 at 5:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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