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#1 Mar 11 2013 at 5:01 AM Rating: Decent
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was the paladin in 1.0 useless? i never played it and herd people sooking about it, did it not have super high def at 50? compared to the WAR?

Edited, Mar 18th 2013 6:56am by Wint Lock Thread:
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#2 Mar 11 2013 at 7:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Not useless, but not the best tank. They had super high defense, but no hate management tools.

They were great on single target if you let them build some hate, but for all-purpose, War had enough def (not many enemies did super high dmg requiring a plds def) and was amazing at holding hate due to aoe, dmg, and abilities.

Plus, a War tanking was doing nearly as much dmg as any other DD. They were broken...
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#3 Mar 11 2013 at 7:33 AM Rating: Good
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Actually, they were the best single target tank.

People just had no idea how to play it.

I'll get downvoted, but it's the simple truth.

People just wanted the spoonfed "provoke, flash, shield bash" combo.

It was harder than that.
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#4 Mar 11 2013 at 8:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Ehhhh... Maybe but it had nothing to do with best tank versus lesser tank...

PLD wasn't needed. War could do the same job but also deal dmg, speeding up fights. PLD didn't offer much that WAR couldn't do except on extremely hard fights, like Rivenroad Hard.
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#5 Mar 11 2013 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
Ehhhh... Maybe but it had nothing to do with best tank versus lesser tank...

PLD wasn't needed. War could do the same job but also deal dmg, speeding up fights. PLD didn't offer much that WAR couldn't do except on extremely hard fights, like Rivenroad Hard.

Which is exactly what I'm hoping not to see in ARR. If some jobs/classes are useless right out of the gate, the game will have difficulty finding and keeping subs.
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#6 Mar 11 2013 at 9:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Paladin was an okay tank, just not an optimal one, unfortunately.

In fights like Garuda for example, a well-geared Darklight Warrior was used over a Paladin if your LS had one because of the extra damage they could do to the adds in Phase 1.

For Coincounter (one of the raid mid-bosses), Warrior had superior HP and dodge moves from Pugilist to be able to avoid some of the tougher hits every 45 seconds, where as the Paladin had Invincible every 15 minutes.

So yeah, it's not a bad tank, but in 1.0 terms, Warrior was better. I hope they fix this with some of the new abilities each job gets in ARR.


Also, for a time, Gladiator had more HP than Paladin, so more people used Gladiator because you lost HP by changing to Paladin. When S-E saw that no one was playing PLD, they fixed the issue half a patch later, I was never sure why they picked that design decision originally.

Edited, Mar 11th 2013 8:07am by UltKnightGrover

Edited, Mar 11th 2013 12:36pm by UltKnightGrover
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#7 Mar 11 2013 at 9:50 AM Rating: Good
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PLD was a good tank, even superior for difficult fights. The problem was WAR usually meant a faster battle and except for Ifrit extreme and Rivenroad Hard the use of a PLD wasn't really warranted because fights weren't difficult enough.

Hopefully they will have a better balance in ARR so both are equally viable regardless of content difficulty.

Edited, Mar 11th 2013 11:52am by Belcrono
#8 Mar 11 2013 at 10:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Belcrono wrote:
PLD was a good tank, even superior for difficult fights. The problem was WAR usually meant a faster battle and except for Ifrit extreme and Rivenroad Hard the use of a PLD wasn't really warranted because fights weren't difficult enough.

Hopefully they will have a better balance in ARR so both are equally viable regardless of content difficulty.

Edited, Mar 11th 2013 11:52am by Belcrono


I wouldn't say they weren't difficult enough, as many fights required diverse strategies, many of which shyed away from 'tank and spank'.

This was a strength in my eyes, but I do wish Pld was more diverse to fit these types of situations, instead of changing fight strategies to fit with pld. All they have ot do is give PLD a few stances or means of dealing dmg, and this would change.
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#9 Mar 11 2013 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
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Hopefully they make it sort of like WoW (OMG Nuuuuuu!) was back in the Burning Crusade days With Warriors and Bear Druids. Have Paladin be a super main tank for bosses while Warrior and Monk(?) are more off tanks for adds. Maybe give paladins superior armor and threat tools for single target, while Warriors have superior AOE threat skills for adds. Warriors would get munched on by bigger bosses unless they were way overgeared but Paladins wouldn't be able to hold threat very well against 3+ mobs. This could give them each a defining role without stepping on any toes. I plan on maining paladin so hopefully they make it a more worthwhile job to play...
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#10 Mar 11 2013 at 2:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure how I should feel about this.

In FFXI it seemed like the big complaint was that not enough jobs could tank. You had to have one to form an xp party and there were never enough to go around.

Now that three or so jobs can reasonably tank, the complaint is that the job that seems like should be the most qualified to tank isn't the hands down winner every time.

I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.
#11 Mar 11 2013 at 3:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Xoie wrote:
I'm not sure how I should feel about this.

In FFXI it seemed like the big complaint was that not enough jobs could tank. You had to have one to form an xp party and there were never enough to go around.

Now that three or so jobs can reasonably tank, the complaint is that the job that seems like should be the most qualified to tank isn't the hands down winner every time.

I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.


It's not that really. The problem is 1 jobs ONLY use is tanking.

The other 2 jobs are great in other roles, and both are top notch DD's. If you ever had a party with 3 warriors, you just tell which one to tank, which to DD. IF you had a party with 3 Paladin's, you just fake d/c...
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#12 Mar 11 2013 at 5:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
Xoie wrote:
I'm not sure how I should feel about this.

In FFXI it seemed like the big complaint was that not enough jobs could tank. You had to have one to form an xp party and there were never enough to go around.

Now that three or so jobs can reasonably tank, the complaint is that the job that seems like should be the most qualified to tank isn't the hands down winner every time.

I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.


It's not that really. The problem is 1 jobs ONLY use is tanking.

The other 2 jobs are great in other roles, and both are top notch DD's. If you ever had a party with 3 warriors, you just tell which one to tank, which to DD. IF you had a party with 3 Paladin's, you just fake d/c...

Same if it's a party of 3 white mages, but that doesn't mean white mages are useless.
#13 Mar 11 2013 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
Belcrono wrote:
PLD was a good tank, even superior for difficult fights. The problem was WAR usually meant a faster battle and except for Ifrit extreme and Rivenroad Hard the use of a PLD wasn't really warranted because fights weren't difficult enough.

Hopefully they will have a better balance in ARR so both are equally viable regardless of content difficulty.

Edited, Mar 11th 2013 11:52am by Belcrono


I wouldn't say they weren't difficult enough, as many fights required diverse strategies, many of which shyed away from 'tank and spank'.

This was a strength in my eyes, but I do wish Pld was more diverse to fit these types of situations, instead of changing fight strategies to fit with pld. All they have ot do is give PLD a few stances or means of dealing dmg, and this would change.


What I meant was more that if you can do something at a quicker pace most people will do it which is what happened with WAR vs PLD in 1.0. The only place where that wasn't really an issue was when content was difficult enough to the point of risking a loss if you brought a WAR instead of PLD or at least lowered your chances by more than it was worth to have a slightly faster battle.
#14 Mar 11 2013 at 5:31 PM Rating: Good
Louiscool wrote:
Xoie wrote:
I'm not sure how I should feel about this.

In FFXI it seemed like the big complaint was that not enough jobs could tank. You had to have one to form an xp party and there were never enough to go around.

Now that three or so jobs can reasonably tank, the complaint is that the job that seems like should be the most qualified to tank isn't the hands down winner every time.

I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.


It's not that really. The problem is 1 jobs ONLY use is tanking.

The other 2 jobs are great in other roles, and both are top notch DD's. If you ever had a party with 3 warriors, you just tell which one to tank, which to DD. IF you had a party with 3 Paladin's, you just fake d/c...


One thing I actually liked about DC Universe Online was the role system they had for each character. Every type or character had a DD "stance" and a Role "Stance" which were Tank, Controller (buff/debuff), and healer. I think it'd be kind of interesting to see this in the FF setting. Iceand Fire characters, for example, were Tank/DD. In Tank stance / gear your DD was not negligible, but you weren't even close to the top on the DPS parse. However, all your moves garnered huge amounts of Enmity. You had to be at least one tier under-geared or slacking to lose hate to a DD, even with 3 of them. Then if you switched to DD stance and gear, you could easily top the chart if you were good at your job.

Take this into FFXIV: ARR and you get a whole new dynamic to it. You're not just a Paladin or DD, your EVERYTHING. You can choose to be a Tank Paladin, DD Archer, Tank GLD, Full-Mystic BLM and some sort of Forbidden SMN Brawler if you so choose. Obviously, we'd want some restriction (probably via combat skills or something) to keep it within the spirit of FF, but it would create more specialized options. Nobody likes when the game gets to: Fight X requires 3 of job A, 3 of job B, one of job C and one of job D, using strategy 34. Cookie-cutter builds, cookie-cutter party, and cookie-cutter stratgey.

Switch that to the above system. Could use a PLD single target, magic enmity building tank on the boss and a GLD AOE damage enmity building tank on the adds. Or 2 GLD damage enmity building tanks overlapping. Or the PLD and an AOE DD. Or an all-out zerg.

We don't need the trinity back, but we don't need a bunch of DD jobs who all have the Medic ability either.
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#15 Mar 11 2013 at 5:38 PM Rating: Good
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Tanking with PLD IMO was kind of like tanking with NIN in XI. It took the whole party AND a good player to manage hate properly... which in certain fights was not optimal. WAR is/was easy mode tank on some fights, but did actually take a lot of skill in the multi-mob fights. Neither one was pick up and play on the more random encounters, they took equal but opposite skill. I would like to see a few more options for PLD in 2.0, IMO it should be the main tank. WAR should be doing DD and tanking the adds, not fully replacing PLD in PUG fights.

Then again, I'd also like to see a third tank... hopefully a debuff AOE type that could sideline WAR and let it play full DD. Before that though I'd like a THF and two more caster options... Wishful thinking on all parts of course.
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#16 Mar 11 2013 at 6:21 PM Rating: Default
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Im heaps keen to play a paladin, black sheep syndrome
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#17 Mar 12 2013 at 4:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Perrin wrote:
Tanking with PLD IMO was kind of like tanking with NIN in XI. It took the whole party AND a good player to manage hate properly... which in certain fights was not optimal. WAR is/was easy mode tank on some fights, but did actually take a lot of skill in the multi-mob fights. Neither one was pick up and play on the more random encounters, they took equal but opposite skill. I would like to see a few more options for PLD in 2.0, IMO it should be the main tank. WAR should be doing DD and tanking the adds, not fully replacing PLD in PUG fights.

Then again, I'd also like to see a third tank... hopefully a debuff AOE type that could sideline WAR and let it play full DD. Before that though I'd like a THF and two more caster options... Wishful thinking on all parts of course.


War and Pld weren't anywhere near equal in skill that they took to play. Surely you jest. I might be assuming, because I don't know if your sig is current. Having only gotten Gld/Pld to 43, you would have missed out on valuable experience to back your opinion up. War is easy mode on single target and easier mode on multiple mobs thanks to the free weapon skill heal it had. When you can charge into a room hit Sentinel and get 1k tp (used to be 1500 before Steel Cyclone nerf) do a 3 hit combo that near kills or kills every mob while taking your HP from near death to Full. (Oh, don't forget about the added stun) That's as face roll as you get. Couple that with the parry ability and a low cost frontal swing that does a little over melee damage,(I've been able to get up to 4 Overpowers in a row) and you are GOD. In a pinch you don't even need to combo, just Mighty Strikes and Raw Cyclone. FULL hp and most likely kill whatever (and stun if not dead!).

Everything I just listed, PLD could never dream of doing that. Had they not gave PLD such a high delay on Spirits Within, PLD might not have been so overlooked. (Probably shouldn't have removed Circle Blade either and made it restore MP on hit) It was actually like 2 mins+ (can't recall exactly) before they they lowered it to 1 min. And to combo it, you had to block. (While Cyclone is a nice 30 secs) In a quite odd move, PLD actually had to run behind a mob to combo, while War just gets to face roll from the front, or side. In a pinch, just Hallowed Ground and Run Away!

You just sacrifice everything for minimal gains while Warrior has more options. With quadruple melds I've seen Paladins with 5000+ HP. They sacrifice all other stats just for that. Yet war can sit at 4500 with added STR or ATT/ACC.

I wouldn't mind if PLD is the main tank, but I wouldn't mind if they did have 3 tanks and made them very situational, but doable if you didn't have the preferred tank. Paladin is a very fun class. I hope it's brought up to par.
#18 Mar 12 2013 at 6:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Xoie wrote:
I'm not sure how I should feel about this.

In FFXI it seemed like the big complaint was that not enough jobs could tank. You had to have one to form an xp party and there were never enough to go around.

Now that three or so jobs can reasonably tank, the complaint is that the job that seems like should be the most qualified to tank isn't the hands down winner every time.

I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.


It's not that really. The problem is 1 jobs ONLY use is tanking.

The other 2 jobs are great in other roles, and both are top notch DD's. If you ever had a party with 3 warriors, you just tell which one to tank, which to DD. IF you had a party with 3 Paladin's, you just fake d/c...

Same if it's a party of 3 white mages, but that doesn't mean white mages are useless.


1) I never said paladin was useless
2) WHM could absolutely DD in 1.0 and was a top notch aoe mage, preferred in some cases to blm because their aoe spells were on a short cooldown, so for chocobo escort they are amazing. You would regularly have 2 whms in any party, and they had a damage dealing stance. I would not quit 3 whm party, I would disband a 2 pld party.

Paladin was the only job in 1.0 where more than 1 was useless. I would stack any other job but Paladin. Don't pretend pld was some god to tanking because it will never be fixed that way. It wasn't. It was directionless and lacking.
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#19 Mar 12 2013 at 3:24 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
Paladin was the only job in 1.0 where more than 1 was useless. I would stack any other job but Paladin. Don't pretend pld was some god to tanking because it will never be fixed that way. It wasn't. It was directionless and lacking.


If I'm not mistaken the game that they were making and then used as 1.0 didn't intend to have primary tanks. I remember hearing about multiple threat mechanic changes. I think they were just trying to build upon that flawed system where a job like paladin wasn't needed. Hopefully in 2.0 they revamped the whole system and give them the tools they require to actually be paladins. Without the use of a 2handed weapon or dual wielding i don't ever foresee paladin in this game doing much damage. So I guess I wouldn't really expect to see more than one in a group unless you have to fight two big bosses at once or trade off tanking like in WoW.



Edited, Mar 12th 2013 5:27pm by DamienSScott
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#20 Mar 12 2013 at 9:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, giving them better aoe hate grabbing tools would help alot.
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#21 Mar 12 2013 at 9:37 PM Rating: Good
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They also need to make the shield more useful. Even though 1.0 was flawed, Deflection was very godly. You could actively cycle all the shield abilities with the timers while using stoneskin to make the other shield skills deflection-like in nature. With hate and damage mitigation, the lack of PLD dmg might be "OK." War could still tank if you wanted to just go balls deep. Still not sure what their purpose of Paladin was/is atm. I hope we get some information on that soon.
#22 Mar 13 2013 at 2:32 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't really understand how people are coming up with info saying paladin is worthless. I've not heard of anyone using warrior as a tank and be serious about it in any of the end game dungeons. It would be silly to use a war as tank in the AV, CC, or rivenroad or if fit extreme. Yes warrior could manage hate better for multiple targets, but if they didn't have a whm there with cure ready, they'd end up face down in the dirt. Anytime you'd be fighting multiple targets they wouldn't be "boss" like mobs. They'd be fodder mobs. Warrior was basically the goto tank when you needed lots of damage all at once for fights that last a minute or two max. Anything longer than that it just wouldn't be feasible to keep a warrior over the paladin.
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#23 Mar 13 2013 at 4:20 AM Rating: Decent
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How many times do people have to say that, "no one said Paladin is worthless," before they stop? Then you go on to say that using a war is "silly." Pure sophistry.

I remember tanking CC with War for the mid boss and Paladin for the last fight. (17 min runs) It worked out better that way because we were all relic monks wailing away at Chimera. Paladin held hate better (as long as we didn't open with Shoulder Tackle). AV is so easy you can just faceroll with War all the way and kill Miser in 3 mins. (War would lose hate if he didn't collusion. And there were some 2k+ Howling Fists being thrown around). Parry on Coin Counter negates dmg to 0. Shield block didn't do that, only a %.Smiley: tongue

There are specific fights where I wouldn't suggest War. (Monk relic leve) Though, I wouldn't want to do Ifrit X with a war tank either. I'm afraid 2-3 fights where Paladin is the optimal choice was kinda clear. The game didn't make room for Paladin.

(For high lvl NMs Def didn't do much) It pretty much made who had the highest HP the winner! As far as tanking goes, a War with 6000+ HP is really good.

All the Paladin love doesn't change how 1.0 went down. Just accept it, and hope there is better balance in ability/weapon skill efficacy between the tanks.

The most important thing of all though, is that content makes use of the jobs. (Great duh). Paladin's failure was obviously due to the game itself. Yoshi pulled jobs out of his ***. 2.0 is his baby, so it's looking very probable that content might be designed more evenly. Meh, who knows.

#24 Mar 13 2013 at 4:35 AM Rating: Good
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Here's to hoping GDLYL. I really don't want to main another job that ends up being useless x.x
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#25 Mar 13 2013 at 6:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
There are specific fights where I wouldn't suggest War. (Monk relic leve) Though, I wouldn't want to do Ifrit X with a war tank either. I'm afraid 2-3 fights where Paladin is the optimal choice was kinda clear. The game didn't make room for Paladin.


Exactly. For the general population, War did fine. I never completed any of the upper tier content, I.E. Rivenroad Hard, Ifrit Extreme.

I did do EVERY OTHER THING. There was alot of it. There were many difficult missions, hamlets, and many of us considered Garuda to be really tough content. Don't point to 2 events and tell me that justifies Paladin as the best tank. I tanked on warrior in everything else and did great, because of damage mitigation and superior HP.

If you were happy with Paladin, I'm happy for you. I and most others were not. I don't see how your rosey garland goggles are helping anything, but PLD needs an overhaul the same way Monk is getting one. (Pre-emptive defense: I'm not saying Monk was useless. I'm just pointing to the already-talked-about job overhaul)

Edited, Mar 13th 2013 8:29am by Louiscool

Edited, Mar 13th 2013 8:30am by Louiscool
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#26 Mar 13 2013 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
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Ya, I know what you mean. Monk was far from useless lol. OMG the dmg Smiley: eek I believe, if I remember correctly, that the Monk change was due to the fact that it didn't stand out. It's abilities didn't give off a certain "Monk-ness" It was just a job with hand-to-hand that just happened to be called monk but didn't have the skill set to set it apart.

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