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#1 Mar 25 2013 at 6:53 AM Rating: Good
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One thing about FFXIV that really grilled my tenderloins was the progression of Archer to Bard. Was this done under Yoshi-P's direction?

I used a Bard for many years on Final Fantasy XI and its implementation in Final Fantasy XIV was frankly an insult.

It was not really a Bard. It was an Archer with a very small handful of AoE skills which were randomly given music-related names.

I'm not sure why they chose to make Archer become Bard. I guess they just wanted to rattle off the name "Bard" on their job list, without actually making a Bard. As far as I know, no other iterations of the Bard Final Fantasy job has used a bow & arrow.

In my opinion, they should revamp this job entirely. Archer should progress into Ranger, which would further utilize its bow for ranged DPS.

If they want to add a Bard, they should fully realize it with instruments and musical skills, and it shouldn't be primarily an Archer.
#2 Mar 25 2013 at 6:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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What would progress to Bard? You're not suggesting it be a starter class are you?
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#3 Mar 25 2013 at 6:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Perhaps a new class, Chemist?

Screenshot
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#4 Mar 25 2013 at 6:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Perhaps. All the jobs are pretty much the exact same as their starter class anyway. They just have a few extra skills.

For example, "Summoner" will be a progression of a starter class which also summons.

Yeah, I guess Bard would need to be a starter class musician of some kind. Just like how they're doing Summoner. It doesn't look like having a starter class branch into random stuff really works very well.
#5 Mar 25 2013 at 7:28 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Perhaps a new class, Chemist?

Screenshot


Noooooooooo Wint don't give SE ideas like that!!!1!111! Chemist has so much potential to be something different and fun (should be a healer if you ask me) and relegating into the class version of a Bard (or class at all for that matter) would be such a waste if you ask me. Generally looking at most other games' iterations of Bard it would be a part of the stealth class branch so if anything should change (which I doubt it will) I think it should come from that.

Looking at the other class/job combos it doesn't really make much sense to have Bard come from Archer though, nor does it from the perspective of what we've learned of class vs job so far. The job is supposed to be the more specialized version of the class which is the case for more or less all other combos, but for Archer/Bard that isn't the case. You have a pure ranged DD all of a sudden turn into this pseudo ranged DD with a few buffs on the side which then define the job. Honestly comparing it to the other classes/jobs it would make more sense to have the class Bard turn into the job Archer imo.

Generally I think the idea of Bard coming from Archer is okay though, but a big issue I have with it atm is that there is only one ranged class/job. There should be an option for those who like to be ranged DD which there isn't really atm.

Edited, Mar 25th 2013 9:30am by Belcrono

Edited, Mar 25th 2013 9:31am by Belcrono
#6 Mar 25 2013 at 8:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wait... a Bard is ****** that Archer became Bard?

How do you think us Archers felt!!!?!

We were previously the black mages of XIV, able to solo nm's much higher than us due to our burst. Then we are handed a Harp and told to sing!

Seriousness though: it's not that bad. They explain it well in the storyline and it fits. It does a nice job of revamping the idea of bard, and doesn't make them useless in the damage department.

They are not traditional, sure. But this just sounds like your favorite band came out with a new album and you hate it because it doesn't sound identical to the last album. Nostalgia is dangerous and prevents innovation. Don't let nostalgia prevent you from enjoying Bard. (Also they added instruments cosmetically, so now you play a harp.)
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#7 Mar 25 2013 at 8:40 AM Rating: Decent
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I agree, Rangers should be ****** too. The difference is that I don't think (if things stay as they are) Bard will ever have a unique identity as a musician class. It will just be an Archer with a few skills named after music.

There's still a chance for a Ranger job which is Archer with more DD focused abilities.

As for your analogy with the band and the new album, it's not like that. Even if Bard wasn't my favorite FFXI job, I don't like it's implementation in FFXIV.

Again, it just seems like they wanted to namedrop "Bard" for Final Fantasy credibility. It's really not a Bard whatsoever.

I hadn't heard anything about Bards using instruments in ARR (source?) but even so, I wouldn't like it if it stays as is on the non-cosmetic level.

Edited, Mar 25th 2013 10:44am by Killua125
#8 Mar 25 2013 at 9:05 AM Rating: Good
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If you keep thinking of XIV within the context of XI, prepare to be continually disappointed.

In XI, Bard was not, by no stretch of the imagination, a solo-friendly class. Because of the game that they're currently trying to build, making leveling paths much more difficult for certain classes in comparison to others would throw off game balance, and steer people away from playing certain classes.

You're most likely not going to see a pure "Support" class like you had in XI.
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#9 Mar 25 2013 at 9:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think another shift people are going to have to consider is the Class > Job transition. I've had a hard time trying to define to friends who ask what a Job is versus a Class in the game.
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#10 Mar 25 2013 at 9:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wint wrote:
I think another shift people are going to have to consider is the Class > Job transition. I've had a hard time trying to define to friends who ask what a Job is versus a Class in the game.


Agreed. The system is sort of convoluted, but at the some time necessary, given what the team had to work with. It sort of makes me wonder how an in-game tutorial would explain the system.
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#11 Mar 25 2013 at 9:14 AM Rating: Good
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Final Fantasy XI Bards were helpless. Completely helpless. If you didn't have a party, you couldn't do anything.

FFXIV is a casual-friendly game. Casual-friendly game means that you need to be able to solo stuff. Times have changed, OP.

Also: We have enough "pure" damage dealers as it is between Monk, Dragoon, and Warrior. Archer/Bard can dish out decent damage, has a lot of hate reduction abilities, and use support spells.
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#12 Mar 25 2013 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
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That is a good point.

The entire point of Jobs is to give every job a specific role in a party, while class is for soloing.

And Bard is bard in every sense of the word, except a bit less spoony. As the level gap is increased, job abilities will grow (or they might even grow before then, who knows with the revamp.

I forget where I read it, but bard now pulls out a harp to play their songs. I too wish this was an equipable item. Bards implementation is more akin to Dancer in FFXI. They needed a way to justify bards in battle, and plucking a harp is similar to plucking a bow.

It was a surprise, but I don't think it was just some name drop. I mean honestly, the number of lifetime bards is very low compared to people who like the 1337 dmg numbers of Ranger, which will quite obviously come from Musketeer > Ranger.

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#13 Mar 25 2013 at 9:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, the fact of the matter is that nobody quite knows how jobs will work yet. So it's far too early to make assumptions about anything.
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#14 Mar 25 2013 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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I'm not fully understanding why you guys think I'm suggesting a total-support, helpless class like the Bard of FFXI.

I'm just suggesting that Bard be a class based entirely around music, instead of this lazy Archer to Bard progression which really isn't even a Bard.

That doesn't mean that the Bard needs to be totally helpless like it was in the FFXI iteration. Why am I getting downvoted?

Edit: I also wonder how they're going to explain the job system to newcomers. I actually thought they would get rid of it. It's kind of redundant

Edited, Mar 25th 2013 11:52am by Killua125
#15 Mar 25 2013 at 10:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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I rated you back up, only one person rated you down but since you're still at default Karma it took the thread a way I don't want it to go. This is a good discussion, we could branch out into talking about other class/job combos. People have said they want to see THF come back, what would be a job to spawn from THF, NIN? Assassin? What would be a good class to have NIN evolve from?
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#16 Mar 25 2013 at 10:21 AM Rating: Decent
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All the Final Fantasy jobs are pretty unique. I guess that's why people like Final Fantasy jobs so much.

This is also why I don't understand the Armory & Job system currently in place. Each job is too unique to have it branch off as an original "Armory" class with some bonus skills.

So, they'll need to add a new "Armory" class for every new "Job"... so why not just combine them?

I mean, as for your question; I just don't see Ninja and Thief for example being able to branch off from the same "Armory" class.

I guess they'll need to add a "Rogue" so that can become a Thief, which is redundant like I said

Edited, Mar 25th 2013 12:24pm by Killua125
#17 Mar 25 2013 at 10:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
I'm not fully understanding why you guys think I'm suggesting a total-support, helpless class like the Bard of FFXI.


Quote:

I used a Bard for many years on Final Fantasy XI and its implementation in Final Fantasy XIV was frankly an insult.


I'm not seeing how it's an insult though. Archer/Bard is more of a Corsair if you were to compare it to FFXI. Corsair used Cards and mixed it with guns and it became a hybrid DD/support. Bards in FFXIV use a Bowharp consider it a different-flavored Corsair. I'm just confused on why you're insulted.

Bards going off of Archer seems kind of natural, even reinforced by the Bard storyline.

Another poster has stated that Musketeer will probably be more of a ranged DD. It seems as such, given how Merlwyb is a total badass with her Death Penalty.
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#18 Mar 25 2013 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Eh, I'm just going to go back to the official forum. I don't like how people angrily pound the downvote button on here. I didn't post anything stupid or rude. I prefer the official forum where people can just vote up but not down.

Yeah, I did play FFXI as a Bard but I didn't suggest that FFXIV's Bard be exactly the same. I just think it should be a Bard, which it isn't.
#19 Mar 25 2013 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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Classes are more solo friendly. They can cross-class more things.

Jobs are defined roles. Best for raids or primal battles where you have a defined role you must stick to. Instead of being able to cross class, you're only defined to the cross class abilities from only two other classes.

In terms of FFXI, roughly translating, classes allow you to subjob anything you want, but losing important job abilities in the process. Jobs only allow you the two best subjobs that fit your role.
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#20 Mar 25 2013 at 10:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
Eh, I'm just going to go back to the official forum. I don't like how people angrily pound the downvote button on here. I didn't post anything stupid or rude. I prefer the official forum where people can just vote up but not down.

Yeah, I did play FFXI as a Bard but I didn't suggest that FFXIV's Bard be exactly the same. I just think it should be a Bard, which it isn't.


Well whining about Karma won't get you far here, that's for sure. One rate down making you this upset makes me think you might not have the hide for these forums, but feel free to stick around and see if you want Smiley: thumbsup
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#21 Mar 25 2013 at 10:36 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't mind very much, but all 15 of my posts got downvoted and I'm not sure why.
#22 Mar 25 2013 at 10:36 AM Rating: Decent
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TurboTom wrote:
If you keep thinking of XIV within the context of XI, prepare to be continually disappointed.

In XI, Bard was not, by no stretch of the imagination, a solo-friendly class. Because of the game that they're currently trying to build, making leveling paths much more difficult for certain classes in comparison to others would throw off game balance, and steer people away from playing certain classes.

You're most likely not going to see a pure "Support" class like you had in XI.


So..despite the fact:

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Bard

Every single Bard has been a support role throughout all of FF, somehow it's just "XI's bard"? Bard in XI was designed as a FF Bard, Bard in XIV is designed as the generic ranger crap you find in other MMORPGs because they actually have no sense of true "Support" classes, just attackers who can throw out buffs. Only Ragnarok Online had actually "Support" classes.

Bard wasn't "helpless", it just couldn't solo tough NMs cuz you know, you're not supposed to be soloing things that generally required a party to begin with.

Killua, you simply posted you enjoyed FFXI and the FFXIV players hate XI and anyone who played XI, you learn this very quickly when you browse any XIV related board.
#23 Mar 25 2013 at 10:39 AM Rating: Decent
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
Classes are more solo friendly. They can cross-class more things.

Jobs are defined roles. Best for raids or primal battles where you have a defined role you must stick to. Instead of being able to cross class, you're only defined to the cross class abilities from only two other classes.

In terms of FFXI, roughly translating, classes allow you to subjob anything you want, but losing important job abilities in the process. Jobs only allow you the two best subjobs that fit your role.


This is all very confusing to me. I think it will be confusing for newcomers, as well.

I really do hope they just combine the classes and jobs as one thing.

Theonehio wrote:
TurboTom wrote:
If you keep thinking of XIV within the context of XI, prepare to be continually disappointed.

In XI, Bard was not, by no stretch of the imagination, a solo-friendly class. Because of the game that they're currently trying to build, making leveling paths much more difficult for certain classes in comparison to others would throw off game balance, and steer people away from playing certain classes.

You're most likely not going to see a pure "Support" class like you had in XI.


So..despite the fact:

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Bard

Every single Bard has been a support role throughout all of FF, somehow it's just "XI's bard"?


This is true. Every Final Fantasy Bard has been a type of support. However, if we're using the argument that every FFXIV class should be solo friendly (which I don't like, by the way) then I would even settle for a music-type class which had some offensive abilities. I just don't like the current setup of the generic archer class with a couple music-related skill names.

Edited, Mar 25th 2013 12:41pm by Killua125
#24 Mar 25 2013 at 10:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Killua125 wrote:
Eh, I'm just going to go back to the official forum. I don't like how people angrily pound the downvote button on here. I didn't post anything stupid or rude. I prefer the official forum where people can just vote up but not down.

Yeah, I did play FFXI as a Bard but I didn't suggest that FFXIV's Bard be exactly the same. I just think it should be a Bard, which it isn't.


You aren't getting downvoted, you are Default by default (read what Wint wrote.) Your default post rating is based on your average post rating, thus, you post and it starts at default. Note that Wint starts at Excellent, and some saintly people who aren't admins start at Good

Regardless, Archer, Glad, Thm, Con, Pug, and Lancer are not traditional classes in FF lore (I'm sure you can fnd 1 or 2 instances but I wouldn't call them keystones)

Pug and Lnc have bits of Thf in both of them, Thm and Con both have mage bits, etc. None are specialized. I have to ask, did you play 1.2 with the jobs? It's definitely a GOOD thing, the bard we have now. I guess it might look like some generic lazy (or whatever other negative connotations you'd like to add) addition from looking at screenshots but it isn't.

I'm assuming the job came about from some concept artist drawing that super awesome Relic Bow/Harp. Because of Bowharp, I never want these two to be separated.



ADD:

Lastly, Edward, the epitome of spoony bard, was Archer/Bard.

BOOM. Lore'd.

Edited, Mar 25th 2013 12:43pm by Louiscool
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#25 Mar 25 2013 at 10:42 AM Rating: Good
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Well, two things need to be taken into account.

1/ This isn't Final Fantasy XI.
2/ This isn't a single-player Final Fantasy game.

Quote:
Bard wasn't "helpless", it just couldn't solo tough NMs cuz you know, you're not supposed to be soloing things that generally required a party to begin with.


This reinforces my point. Archer was likely made into a hybrid DD/support class because FFXIV was originally falling into the same problem that plagued FFXI throughout its lifetime. The overabundance of damage dealers with a lack of support. When they reimagined the jobs, they probably considered the classes they had and Archer fit the bill more than anything else to be a hybrid.

In terms of Bard, it can still do very great damage. It was needed especially in important pulls for adds in Aurum Vale and Garuda where it needed to AoE down adds quickly and efficiently. It also has the necessary buffs to keep the other party members going and provides the necessary hate-reducing abilities that Black Mage and Monk can use.

It seems the people who complain about its role haven't seen it in practical use. It might be tweaked come ARR and the introduction of Arcanist, but I can only talk about its use in 1.0 due to NDAs in place.
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#26 Mar 25 2013 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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I'm not doubting the role/efficiency of Bard in FFXIV, I'm saying I don't like the way they created the job.

I don't doubt that it was useful, but it's still not really a Bard, and it doesn't please this Final Fantasy fan.

I don't mind them "re-imagining" the Bard, but they shouldn't have abandoned its entire concept, where music is central. I'll stick to the notion that Archer and Bard should be entirely separate entities.

Edited, Mar 25th 2013 12:48pm by Killua125
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