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#27 Mar 25 2013 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
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I understand what you're saying. You appreciate the thematic elements of the jobs, and the more "blended" they make jobs, the less opportunity they have to really explore the diversity available to them. e.g., a pseudo-bow/bard turns two potentially great and unique jobs into one. That's fine in theory, but sometimes the two jobs they mix aren't the ones you wanted. For example, I wanted a Mime in FFXI. Some people told me that BLU or PUP was the Mime--I already had my Mime. But it didn't have the thematic elements of a the Mime that I was looking for.

Some jobs can be, or need to be defined by this fusion of thematic elements. For example, a Black Mage, or Elementalist, in some games, would be broken down into mages of each element... water, fire, earth, etc. Some people love that--they want to specialize in a specific type of magic. But, when you combine all of these together with the character of the Black Mage, the result is something entirely different. Some people prefer this creation, while others wish they could part it out into something more suitable to their taste. The more you blend, the worse this phenomenon becomes. Class purity and definition are appreciated.

I think this way myself, actually, but I can tell you from experience that parting out these themes isn't always so easy when you're trying to obtain an optimal balance of coverage. It's not difficult to come up with 40 distinct classes, not even counting these thematic "special blends" like Dragoon, Red Mage, etc. that aren't as recognizable outside of the franchise. So if you know that you can't have that many, you have to resign yourself to some blending.

Personal anecdote: Edward is the only memorable Bard to me, and I always stuck him in the back row with a bow.
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#28 Mar 25 2013 at 11:21 AM Rating: Decent
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It's not really even that it uses a bow. It's that the entire class is still ranged-attack central.

To illustrate my point, here's the video of the Bard abilities. This is pretty much the extent of the "Bard" job when I played as one.

You're basically just a Ranger, with a couple of AoE spells. It's not even music... it looks like... FFXI Ninjutsu? Whose decision was it to call this a Bard? I mean come on now.

http://youtu.be/_OA6i0RuBAY?t=1m19s

This is NOT a Bard. Like I said, I'm okay with some re-imagining, but I'm not OK with them scrapping the Bard concept entirely.
I really do think they just called it Bard because they wanted to namedrop it and bring in people such as myself who like that job.

I still can't find the source, but if one of the above posters is correct and they're changing the animation to use an instrument... that's a start, but it's still going to be pretty much a Ranger with a few musical skills.

#29 Mar 25 2013 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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get where he is coming from.. It would be cool though to have a bard that somehow attacked with music and could buff with music etc.. Brings to mind Nikki from Chrono Cross! But honestly I like what they have done with bard already.. FFXI and FFXIV are obviously going to be different.. While I love party center FFXI, FFXIV has to give each character some type of soloing ability because of its reach for casual players. I LOVED FFXI bards though! They use to make my SAM do crazy DoT and ws damage. Good times good times ;)
#30 Mar 25 2013 at 11:28 AM Rating: Good
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I rated you back up, only one person rated you down but since you're still at default Karma it took the thread a way I don't want it to go. This is a good discussion, we could branch out into talking about other class/job combos. People have said they want to see THF come back, what would be a job to spawn from THF, NIN? Assassin? What would be a good class to have NIN evolve from?


I vote

Thf >> Bandit
Nin >> Shadow Blade

THF / BDT: This is viewing THF in the more brutal, thieving, burgling way. Skullduggery and deception are his MO. Perhaps the THF could steal armor off of opponents, or steal pieces of it (like bolts or buckles) thus reducing their stats or resistances. Backstabs, crit-spikes, and evasion. Then there is Bandit, which would allow the player to get really nasty. Shed his/her hate onto other allies, Use the Mug ability, could have a coin toss ability to generate a distraction / escape.

NIN / SBD: NIN gets dual - wield and throwing weapons, but it's "magical" abilities are performed via inventory items. Prism Powder creates illusion or "shadows" of the player. Most items are used for attacking, not so much for elemental or utility purposes. More of a pure hack n' slash DD. Shadow Blade gets the good stuff. Ninjutsu to render it invisible, resulting in an automatic crit. WS's with debuff qualities. Intimidation abilities. Maybe even minor spirit conjouring for one-off attacks. Nothing sustained like SMN.

EDIT: Descriptions added.

Edited, Mar 26th 2013 12:40am by IKickYoDog
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#31 Mar 25 2013 at 11:36 AM Rating: Good
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I perhaps drew too much attention to the bow, but that was not really the point. You want a Bard that specializes primarily in music, because that's what defines a Bard, no? If you don't give it things that define a Bard, and instead give it things like ranged attacks which do not define a Bard, then it is less like a Bard. Seems simple to me.

IKickYoDog wrote:
Wint wrote:
I rated you back up, only one person rated you down but since you're still at default Karma it took the thread a way I don't want it to go. This is a good discussion, we could branch out into talking about other class/job combos. People have said they want to see THF come back, what would be a job to spawn from THF, NIN? Assassin? What would be a good class to have NIN evolve from?


I vote

Thf >> Mercenary
Nin >> Shadow Blade

I'll add descriptions later, too busy at work to really sit down and really hammer it out.


Considering the origin of the classes was rooted in really generic use of terms, I'd probably start with Rogue -> Thief (or if you prefer, treasure hunter. *nyuk nyuk*). Then maybe Assassin-> Ninja.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#32 Mar 25 2013 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
Well, two things need to be taken into account.

1/ This isn't Final Fantasy XI.
2/ This isn't a single-player Final Fantasy game.


I notice some hypocrisy when certain aspects of Final Fantasy XIV are discussed on XIV boards.

So far, FFXIV (especially ARR) has been marketed as an MMORPG for fans of the series. It has to live up to the Final Fantasy name. It has to please the fans. It has to feel like a Final Fantasy game.

I mean, look at the Magitek designs. People went crazy over that on the official forums because it reminds them of past Final Fantasy.

So how come if I mention, for example, that FFXIV Bard is totally different from the Bard of every other Final Fantasy game, FFXIV fans will totally flipflop?

Suddenly it's... This isn't a single-player Final Fantasy! It doesn't have to be like Final Fantasy! This isn't XI, this game isn't for you.

Well, it is. At least according to the developers. I think it's perfectly reasonable for me to say that Bard should be a music class, and not using Shadowbind, Barrage, Hawk's Eye, Piercing Arrow, etc. etc. That's not Bard!

Edited, Mar 25th 2013 2:25pm by Killua125
#33 Mar 25 2013 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
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As a career bard in FFXI, I can tell you that a puller bard had far more in common with Archer than you'd think

I equipped a Chakram (throwing tool) instead of an instrument, because it was quicker than singing a song to pull a monster and had no recast time, unlike a song. This was more or less required on pink birds, because of their Reflect ability. (Elegy suuuuuucks when it lands on you.) Once I had the monster in place, I'd sleep it, then go about singing buffs to the party. Rinse, repeat, until chain 300.

Today, bard is very much a "ranged buffer" - the ability Pianissimo allows you to toss a single target buff at long range, making it much safer to buff a party in a nasty battle. Bard has also always had positional requirements in XI, second perhaps only to THF in the amount of running around we have to do to get the right songs on each person. That translates well to a ranged attacker, who is constantly shuffling around to find the "sweet spot" for the highest damage.
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#34 Mar 25 2013 at 12:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Killua125 wrote:
It's not really even that it uses a bow. It's that the entire class is still ranged-attack central.



Whereas previous entries in the bard universe did what? Sat there and sang?

Barding history is all over the place in it's roots, from combat mage to singing thieves. Why does Barcher seem so out of place to you?

Quote:

To illustrate my point, here's the video of the Bard abilities. This is pretty much the extent of the "Bard" job when I played as one.

You're basically just a Ranger, with a couple of AoE spells. It's not even music... it looks like... FFXI Ninjutsu? Whose decision was it to call this a Bard? I mean come on now.

http://youtu.be/_OA6i0RuBAY?t=1m19s


That video with that one ability shown that's actually an Archer ability, quickstride? It's the only ability with that short casting time, and that lackluster effect. Additionally, all spell effects are being redone, so expect a much more over-the-top song animation (now with harp.)

Quote:

This is NOT a Bard. Like I said, I'm okay with some re-imagining, but I'm not OK with them scrapping the Bard concept entirely.
I really do think they just called it Bard because they wanted to namedrop it and bring in people such as myself who like that job.


Whose concept of bard? Yours? Dungeons and Dragons? FFXI? The Final Fantasy Series? Each of these are vastly different. You're going to have to suck it up, cupcake.

Quote:

So how come if I mention, for example, that FFXIV Bard is totally different from the Bard of every other Final Fantasy game, FFXIV fans will totally flipflop?


What are you talking about, I just told you that Edward, from FF6, was a bard. He used a bow. How does 14's bard not make you think fondly of FF6?

Quote:

I still can't find the source, but if one of the above posters is correct and they're changing the animation to use an instrument... that's a start, but it's still going to be pretty much a Ranger with a few musical skills.


That was me, and it was here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/58022-A-challenge.-Make-Bard-more-Bard.?p=899866#post899866

Rukkirii wrote:


Greetings my musical friends!

I'd like to take a moment and give you some news about bard in ARR.

Drum roll please!
.
.
.
.
.
When performing songs, bards will take out an instrument and play!

This is the only detail we can give to you for now, but we hope you like it.


Edited, Mar 25th 2013 2:50pm by Louiscool
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#35 Mar 25 2013 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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I know a lot of people would likely frown on this idea, but here it goes anyway:

What if instead of having one progression path, it became a split path (one way or the other, not both). So, for example, you are playing Archer and hit level 25. You notice two unique quests offered at the guild. One offers a quest that will lead you to Bard and the other leads you towards Ranger. One lets you focus on party buffs/support, while the other lets you go all out DD.

This would allow people the ability to pick a path that best suits their playstyle and offer a little more diversity and specialization. Some other possible paths:

Marauder: warrior/dark knight
Cleric: White Mage/Geomancer
Thaumaturge: Black Mage/Time Mage
Gladiator: Paladin/Fencer

I am sure people can think up better combos, but I am sure you get the point. I think this would give each player a little more personality and get rid of everyone having the same jobs available all the time.
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#36 Mar 25 2013 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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Grandlethal wrote:
I know a lot of people would likely frown on this idea, but here it goes anyway:

What if instead of having one progression path, it became a split path (one way or the other, not both). So, for example, you are playing Archer and hit level 25. You notice two unique quests offered at the guild. One offers a quest that will lead you to Bard and the other leads you towards Ranger. One lets you focus on party buffs/support, while the other lets you go all out DD.

This would allow people the ability to pick a path that best suits their playstyle and offer a little more diversity and specialization. Some other possible paths:

Marauder: warrior/dark knight
Cleric: White Mage/Geomancer
Thaumaturge: Black Mage/Time Mage
Gladiator: Paladin/Fencer

I am sure people can think up better combos, but I am sure you get the point. I think this would give each player a little more personality and get rid of everyone having the same jobs available all the time.


People wouldn't frown on that idea. I think that was what the developers must have had in mind when they created the job system; multiple paths, multiple jobs to unlock and equip.

The issue is that when the job system was realized, the jobs ended up being basically the same as their corresponding classes, with a few extra skills.

The jobs aren't really separate entities. I don't think people would want to see Dark Knight & Warrior reduced to, "Marauder with a few Dark Knight skills, Marauder with a few Warrior skills", but that's what the dev team went with, I guess. I question whether the Armory classes (Marauder, Conjurer, etc.) will be able to take multiple paths with the current system.

Louiscool wrote:
Quote:

This is NOT a Bard. Like I said, I'm okay with some re-imagining, but I'm not OK with them scrapping the Bard concept entirely.
I really do think they just called it Bard because they wanted to namedrop it and bring in people such as myself who like that job.


Whose concept of bard? Yours? Dungeons and Dragons? FFXI? The Final Fantasy Series? Each of these are vastly different. You're going to have to suck it up, cupcake.


I meant the Bard concept of the Final Fantasy series. As for sucking it up cupcake, I don't know what that comment was for, but I guess I will just play a different class if Bard isn't changed to be music-based.

Anyway, thanks for the link about the instrument animation. I don't think it will really change my opinion about how the job and the progression from Archer to Bard, though


Edited, Mar 25th 2013 2:57pm by Killua125
#37 Mar 25 2013 at 12:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
Eh, I'm just going to go back to the official forum. I don't like how people angrily pound the downvote button on here. I didn't post anything stupid or rude. I prefer the official forum where people can just vote up but not down.


And to think I voted your first post up after reading it...Is this buyer's remorse I'm feeling currently?

They did a lot of these changes in the desperate throws of attempting to keep interest in their sorry excuse for a video game (at the time). I'm sure they wracked their brains attempting to find a way to turn Archer into and advanced ranged DD but they NEEDED a support role to make it feel anything remotely close to FFXI (desperate fan pandering that honestly wasn't that needed. IMO I liked the idea of new, unheard of class/job names). Thus, Archer > Bard was born. I don't like it, you don't like it, but that's what it is. The only thing we can do is hope that SE does something awesome with the combination that makes us get over this logical derp.

Killua125 wrote:
I mean, look at the Magitek designs. People went crazy over that on the official forums because it reminds them of past Final Fantasy.


I personally don't like the addition of Magiteck armor. It could be implemented in a classy way, only being used for certain events (with powers) and by enemies. However the most likely result will be everyone and their mother eventually riding around on Magiteck-obos. I know this will be the end result because I know SE will go mount and pet crazy to catch that group of people that obsess over that stuff in WoW>

Edited, Mar 25th 2013 3:06pm by DamienSScott
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#38 Mar 25 2013 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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Grandlethal wrote:
I know a lot of people would likely frown on this idea, but here it goes anyway:

What if instead of having one progression path, it became a split path (one way or the other, not both). So, for example, you are playing Archer and hit level 25. You notice two unique quests offered at the guild. One offers a quest that will lead you to Bard and the other leads you towards Ranger. One lets you focus on party buffs/support, while the other lets you go all out DD.

This would allow people the ability to pick a path that best suits their playstyle and offer a little more diversity and specialization. Some other possible paths:

Marauder: warrior/dark knight
Cleric: White Mage/Geomancer
Thaumaturge: Black Mage/Time Mage
Gladiator: Paladin/Fencer

I am sure people can think up better combos, but I am sure you get the point. I think this would give each player a little more personality and get rid of everyone having the same jobs available all the time.


SWTOR does the same thing e.g jedi knight: jedi guardian/jedi sentinel
Guardian was a tank class and Sentinel was DPS
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#39 Mar 25 2013 at 1:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Grandlethal wrote:
I know a lot of people would likely frown on this idea, but here it goes anyway:

What if instead of having one progression path, it became a split path (one way or the other, not both). So, for example, you are playing Archer and hit level 25. You notice two unique quests offered at the guild. One offers a quest that will lead you to Bard and the other leads you towards Ranger. One lets you focus on party buffs/support, while the other lets you go all out DD.

This would allow people the ability to pick a path that best suits their playstyle and offer a little more diversity and specialization. Some other possible paths:

Marauder: warrior/dark knight
Cleric: White Mage/Geomancer
Thaumaturge: Black Mage/Time Mage
Gladiator: Paladin/Fencer

I am sure people can think up better combos, but I am sure you get the point. I think this would give each player a little more personality and get rid of everyone having the same jobs available all the time.


While it is a good idea, I just have to avidly disagree. One of the biggest draws I had to FFXI and now FFXIV is the ability to have one character that can do everything. It is a rare occurrence in MMOs and I personally hate having to create new characters I might not like as much just to be another job I want to play.

Also, I feel like players feel quite a bit more attached to the game because of this. I don't think any amount of either/or job choice uniqueness would outweigh this powerful mechanic.

But again, I like the idea... just not for this particular game.
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#40 Mar 25 2013 at 1:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh, did he mean taking a path and not being able to change? As in choose Dark Knight or Warrior? No, I don't like that idea, if that's what he meant.

I think Marauder branching off into those two is possible and even likely if jobs are given more unique abilities & specialization. I think you can be sure that everyone will be able to switch between all their unlocked jobs freely, though.
#41 Mar 25 2013 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
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Also I've been thinking if they implemented an enemy skill/blue mage job then the starter class for it could be game hunter (like a better version of Luso the protagonist from ff-tactics grimoire of the rift.)
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#42 Mar 25 2013 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
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I dislike the idea of branching jobs from one class, because it gives you less leveling to do, and I like leveling.

Quote:

As for sucking it up cupcake, I don't know what that comment was for, but I guess I will just play a different class if Bard isn't changed to be music-based.


It's just an expression, though I've only heard my flamboyantly *** manager say it. Maybe that's why, when I say it, people don't get the whimsy intended in it. No ill will.

I think you should youtube the Bard storyline in FFXIV. It did much to quell my outrage. When it was announced, I was so mad that I quit Archer and leveled Dragoon and Black Mage before giving it a chance.

Edited, Mar 25th 2013 3:15pm by Louiscool
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#43 Mar 25 2013 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
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If you mean the Bard quests every 5 levels, I did them. I still wish the job was based around music instead of archery.

Edited, Mar 25th 2013 3:17pm by Killua125
#44 Mar 25 2013 at 1:49 PM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
If you mean the Bard quests every 5 levels, I did them. I still wish the job was based around music instead of archery.

Edited, Mar 25th 2013 3:17pm by Killua125


hmm. Well, different strokes I guess. I liked the refreshing change, as I always found FF's version of Bard far too spoony for my liking, and prefer the DnD interpretation of a battle-bard with a silver tongue.
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#45 Mar 25 2013 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
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Been a while since I played Dragon Age: Origins, but, if I am not mistaken, Leliana was a bard and she used a bow. Maybe SE is trying to go that route.

My personal opinion upon hearing about archers being made bards, I didn't like it. I personally haven't had a chance to play a bard, so I'll reserve my judgement until I try it. I will say this, not a fan of the AF shoes and pants that bards get.
#46 Mar 25 2013 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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Geffe wrote:
Been a while since I played Dragon Age: Origins, but, if I am not mistaken, Leliana was a bard and she used a bow. Maybe SE is trying to go that route.


Also, I'm pretty sure Bards are proficient with bows in D&D, which is pretty much where all of these games come from anyway.
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#47 Mar 25 2013 at 3:08 PM Rating: Good
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ArcBard had to grow on me. I originally thought that they were totally going to make Archer useless in the damage department and have it like an FFXI Bard. Once I played around with it post patch 1.21 I was pretty satisfied with the direction they're taking it in.
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#48 Mar 25 2013 at 3:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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To my knowledge, and it's not exhaustive by any means, but outside of XI, Bards generally have had either throwing weapons or some kind of long range weapon to supplement their singing abilities/spells. Only in XI was such emphasis put in support and not necessarily being able to hold their own when it comes to the actual shooting. It looks to me like XIV is actually making sense with this change, not making irrational design choices. After all, what tavern musician is going to leave their life of tavern luxury living on tips and cheap ale to go scream at some squirrels hoping to take on the greatest threats facing society? That honestly makes less sense than a man who's pretty good with a harp knowing which end of an arrow faces out.
#49 Mar 25 2013 at 6:20 PM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
Every single Bard has been a support role throughout all of FF, somehow it's just "XI's bard"? Bard in XI was designed as a FF Bard, Bard in XIV is designed as the generic ranger crap you find in other MMORPGs because they actually have no sense of true "Support" classes, just attackers who can throw out buffs. Only Ragnarok Online had actual "Support" classes.
XI's bard was designed around the bards of past FFs, which were helpless (nice way to put it, by the way). The difference is that you could forego putting a bard in your party in the console FFs, whereas XI's bard was a must because it had the best buffs in the game. Bards were rare for most of the game's life, and the birth of the term "princess bard" should give you a hint as to why making the job more attack-oriented to attract more people to it is not a bad thing.

Rolling ternary functions like buffs into existing roles of the trinity is not a bad thing, as the trinity classes benefit from the additional depth while ensuring groups have necessary buffs/debuffs/CC without adding yet another hurdle to forming a party in by way of "unpopular support jobs".

I wouldn't call it "generic", but instead "a step in the right direction".

PS: XIV's bard is taking more from the classic bard rather than the Edwardian bard. Not a bad thing.

Edited, Mar 25th 2013 8:23pm by Ruisu
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#50 Mar 25 2013 at 6:34 PM Rating: Good
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A lot of folks have said their piece... but I really disliked the idea of ARC>BRD as well, but the more I played it, the more it made sense. BRD needs a ranged melee attack, ARC or some sort of Gun class makes the most sense. While the storyline was hodge podge, it did work to make things fit. I mean, where else would it go?
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#51 Mar 25 2013 at 6:57 PM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
Eh, I'm just going to go back to the official forum. I don't like how people angrily pound the downvote button on here. I didn't post anything stupid or rude. I prefer the official forum where people can just vote up but not down.


What are these official forums you speak of whilst you write of FFXIV ARR concerns?
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