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#52 Mar 26 2013 at 3:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Relevant:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/61413-Don-t-panic%21-Yoshida-said-everything-ll-be-all-right-after-Wada-s-resignation?p=983588#post983588

Quote:
Producer and Director Yoshida here.

I thought I should give some answers ahead of the Producer Letter Live.

LitryQuis wrote:

I would also like to know whether Wada-san stepping down will have an impact on the development of FFXIV:ARR and future developments.

The plans, stance and structure of the development team will not be affected at all so rest assured. Some have been saying to me "You haven't posted on the forums that much recently, has this news affected you?" but it is simply a matter of me feeling like I'm going to die from the Beta operations being in full swing (heh…)

LitryQuis wrote:

Wada said that FFXIV: ARR will bring back the FF brand, and by just developing without a thought about the profits, I am now worried that what has just happened will have a huge impact. You can say that they have raised their level of perfection and aren’t slacking to avoid the game failing for a second time. But there might be split of the development budget and the billing structure may be affected after the game has been released… These are just some of the things I had been thinking about.

There will be absolutely no changes to our policy. We will continue to support the whole company and we are working at full speed for the launch of ARR.

You could actually say that the we feel the responsibilities we have with FFXIV:ARR even more, but as the Producer and Director I am well prepared to face this and anything that comes our way, and we will put all our effort into delivering the greatest game to you all.

Please rest assured
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#53 Mar 26 2013 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Listen i like the guy, i think that he is awesome as a human being, but as a game producer, he is untested, as a game designer, as showned in DQX, he flat out sucks, as a PR person he is amazing, and that is his forte, but to make him an excecutive ?


I agree that he is an amazing PR person, and he might have a good mind for management as well, for all we know. At least, he has his finger on the pulse of the industry better than many--even if he's a glorified consultant with a corporate business card, that could be a title well-earned.

But I will say in defense of his game design credentials, working on failed games does not make someone a bad game designer. Game designers have different duties within the creation of the game system. The things he designed might have been awesome--maybe they were the only things that made players enjoy the game at all. I've played many games where I could specifically say that one particular game designer dropped the ball. For example, in GW2, whoever designed the equipment system completely dropped the ball. They even admitted their mistake later with the first content update.

Of course, that doesn't mean he's a good designer either, and while his tenure seems to be putting XIV in a more positive direction, it could very easily be insufficient. And there are enough apologetics for why he NEEDS to produce a standard MMO clone that I'm really not optimistic about the game's success overall. The truth is, there's not a game that they can clone or even heavily borrow from that will work well for FFXIV's system and goals. The best they can probably do is a GW2 clone, which would still probably be found lacking in many ways.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#54Ishihara, Posted: Mar 26 2013 at 3:32 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'd rather them do a revamp, then do a release that follows the paths of other mmos. My opinion.
#55 Mar 26 2013 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
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Listen i like the guy, i think that he is awesome as a human being, but as a game producer, he is untested, as a game designer, as showned in DQX, he flat out sucks, as a PR person he is amazing, and that is his forte, but to make him an excecutive ?


I agree that he is an amazing PR person, and he might have a good mind for management as well, for all we know. At least, he has his finger on the pulse of the industry better than many--even if he's a glorified consultant with a corporate business card, that could be a title well-earned.

But I will say in defense of his game design credentials, working on failed games does not make someone a bad game designer. Game designers have different duties within the creation of the game system. The things he designed might have been awesome--maybe they were the only things that made players enjoy the game at all. I've played many games where I could specifically say that one particular game designer dropped the ball. For example, in GW2, whoever designed the equipment system completely dropped the ball. They even admitted their mistake later with the first content update.

Of course, that doesn't mean he's a good designer either, and while his tenure seems to be putting XIV in a more positive direction, it could very easily be insufficient. And there are enough apologetics for why he NEEDS to produce a standard MMO clone that I'm really not optimistic about the game's success overall. The truth is, there's not a game that they can clone or even heavily borrow from that will work well for FFXIV's system and goals. The best they can probably do is a GW2 clone, which would still probably be found lacking in many ways.


He has a better pulse in the industry than many ? Who ? Name me one release from yoshi that was ground braking and acclaimed by millions and millions, and even emulated by other companies.... You cannot name me one, because such thing does not exist, does he has a better aproach as far as reaching out to the community ? Yes he does, is that new and shinny ? No is not, it might be for SE fan base, but for MMO fans it is not. I have no problem with the guy, other than people giving him credit for things he has yet to acomplish because they like him personally, all he has done up to today, is what anybody would have expected from a random producer, to update a game, that is all he has done up to now, when ARR releases and breaks record sales then we can call him the second comming of jesus etc etc.

Also wint, he is a corporate guy, that statement is a corporate statement, what is to be expected of him to say, is not like if they told him: "Hey we release in 3 days" he is gonna go out and be like "OMG THIS NEW GUY IS CRAZY, HE WANTS US TO RELEASE IN 3 DAYS WTF MAN".
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#56 Mar 26 2013 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
preludes wrote:
Simply put a new MMO customer has to ask themselves.

Why should I pay monthly, every...single month for a game when I can play another one that is very similar for nothing at all. Can anyone list a reason they should? Just being a FF title isn't enough anymore.


Because it keeps the 13 year old script kiddies OUT OF THE GAME.


You talk like ARR is in a position to turn away customers, beggars can't be choosers. They just came from a failure so embarassing they had to rebuild the game due to it possibly destroying the entire brand of FF.

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#57 Mar 26 2013 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
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He has a better pulse in the industry than many ? Who ?


Other corporate executives at SE, which is what the comment was in reference to. I was merely pointing out that it's a good idea to have someone who knows something about the MMO industry in the corporate meetings if that's a major part of their portfolio moving forward.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#58 Mar 26 2013 at 5:11 PM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:


I can agree with that much.


As well anyone with a true desire to see the company thrive should.

SE's fans are a diverse bunch and they can make quite a bit by appealing to them both on the broad and the niche scale. But beyond even that, the fans of the game are a thirsty bunch. They'll eat up any info given to them, but starve them and they'll seek satiation elsewhere - which is bad. One of the greatest things about Final Fantasy and Square Enix in general was the ability to enthrall its audience. Even if you disagreed with certain decisions or game aspects, the story, the passion, and the general sense of true adventure instilled within their games is what keeps players coming for more.

But these 5+ year development cycles with little to no word as to the worlds and experiences that are coming leaves us with little to enjoy or be excited about. Worse, with no open communication there can be no feedback that can change something that could be disastrous to the success of a game.

Yoshida has the temperament to know what 'feedback' to ignore over his work and what feedback to incorporate. But his policies need to be spread to every project active in SE's development cycle if it wants to re-attain the rockstar status it once had. To do that, they're going to have to be more open-faced (let us see our developers! Let us see their work and passions! Show us the voice actors we love! ,etc) to satiate the ravishing hunger for media that's become the trend of this generation. If you're not at the forefront of our thoughts, you're yesterday's news - aka ancient history.
#59 Mar 26 2013 at 5:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Square's problem was always becoming too big for their britches.

They were best at creating the Final Fantasy and other niche games...and should have stayed that way. Now they their hands in too many pots, and their resources are spread too thin.

Wada, after the Spirits Within disaster, took over (with Sony's money), merged and bought up a whole slew of companies, all the while, their stock has been declining to half of what it was in 2005.

So I'd say it's less to do about the last financial quarter, than the past 8 years of declining stocks.

Ironically, now seems a great time to buy. @$11 a share, with FFXIV actually looking pretty good, games like TR (which was awesome BTW), and some other restructuring (hopefully their moblie dept), I can see this stock gaining some ground in the next year for sure.

#60 Mar 26 2013 at 6:01 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Oh! Thank which ever god got him to Resign!! The Squaresoft killer has finally given Up!

Now whoever becomes CEO, needs to release FF Type 0, tell toriyama to pack his backs and GTFO! Oh and gives us a damm update on Versis jesus is been like a decade <.<


I know it's just a rumor, but I'm betting its true that versus was rebranded as FFXV. It would make sense that around the same time that development stopped 2 years ago is the same time that FFXIV's launch failed to bring in the numbers they were wanting. It would only make sense to put off other projects to make sure your current ones are able to float by themselves.
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#61 Mar 26 2013 at 6:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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If XIV was free to play, I wouldn't play. Too much douche bags and weirdos in F2P games.
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#62 Mar 26 2013 at 6:55 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
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He has a better pulse in the industry than many ? Who ?


Other corporate executives at SE, which is what the comment was in reference to. I was merely pointing out that it's a good idea to have someone who knows something about the MMO industry in the corporate meetings if that's a major part of their portfolio moving forward.


Well you did say better than many in the Industry Smiley: rolleyes But oh Well! As far as better than anybody in SE ? Who knows i am not interested in a blogger producer, i am interested in a producer that can deliver quality games(Yazmat, Ito, Sakaguchi) tho yoshi does brings a fresh newer look into MMO to SE, i just dont think emulating the norm is gonna be enough, he needs to give the game some FF feeling and by that i do not mean to literally bring parts of the series into this game.
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#63 Mar 26 2013 at 7:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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I often debate my decision to post in arguments like this because there is little to say one answer is right and the other wrong. I stand fully behind SE in their decision to make the game P2P.

I avoid F2P MMOs. Ridiculous though it may sound, I develop a 'buyer beware' attitude around games which proclaim themselves 'free'. I believe very few things in life can truly be labeled as free. There are consequences, trade-offs, risks and rewards with every choice in life as with game design. Put simply I view F2P as the bottom of the barrel. I recognize my dislike to be irrational and to have little basis but I get frustrated with the perpetual lowering of standards for service or what I see as a constant 'lowering of the bar'. Although not a prime example the airline industry stands out as an example of the declines in customer service and methods to bill for every thing previously included in the price. I rather dislike this trend. I get it, I really do, but I don't have to like it. In my rather vivid imagination, P2P games have an intangible standard of service which is lacking in F2P games. I get access to everything for one low price.

I also agree that the day it goes F2P is the day SE will lose me as a paying customer (pun intended). I say this not in a vain attempt to further expand the argument merely to state the way I 'feel' about things.

Edited, Mar 26th 2013 9:13pm by kainsilv
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#64 Mar 26 2013 at 7:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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preludes wrote:
catwho wrote:
preludes wrote:
Simply put a new MMO customer has to ask themselves.

Why should I pay monthly, every...single month for a game when I can play another one that is very similar for nothing at all. Can anyone list a reason they should? Just being a FF title isn't enough anymore.


Because it keeps the 13 year old script kiddies OUT OF THE GAME.


You talk like ARR is in a position to turn away customers, beggars can't be choosers. They just came from a failure so embarassing they had to rebuild the game due to it possibly destroying the entire brand of FF.



Turning away customers who aren't paying you money anyway doesn't cost you a dime.

Beggars gain nothing from begging from other beggars.

WoW was only the most successful MMO of all time because it had thirteen million people paying them money. If a sub base has thirteen million people, but only a hundred thousand of them actually ever spend any money, the company is wasting resources. The other 12.9 million people are providing them no value other than a big number to brag about.
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#65 Mar 26 2013 at 8:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Turning away customers who aren't paying you money anyway doesn't cost you a dime.


Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

I'm a good example. I bought GW2, and haven't bought a single thing from the gem store. In fact, nobody I know has bought anything from the gem store.

Meanwhile, I'll be giving SE my legacy monthly fee when playing FFXIV... actually, two monthly fees, because my wife is playing too. And I'll be buying a PS3 version. It doesn't take a lot of people like me to make F2P very worthwhile over the long run.

Over the same period of time, GW2 (f2p) will never profit from me beyond what I spent on the initial game.

Edited, Mar 26th 2013 7:01pm by Thayos
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#66 Mar 26 2013 at 8:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
preludes wrote:
catwho wrote:
preludes wrote:
Simply put a new MMO customer has to ask themselves.

Why should I pay monthly, every...single month for a game when I can play another one that is very similar for nothing at all. Can anyone list a reason they should? Just being a FF title isn't enough anymore.


Because it keeps the 13 year old script kiddies OUT OF THE GAME.


You talk like ARR is in a position to turn away customers, beggars can't be choosers. They just came from a failure so embarassing they had to rebuild the game due to it possibly destroying the entire brand of FF.



Turning away customers who aren't paying you money anyway doesn't cost you a dime.

Beggars gain nothing from begging from other beggars.

WoW was only the most successful MMO of all time because it had thirteen million people paying them money. If a sub base has thirteen million people, but only a hundred thousand of them actually ever spend any money, the company is wasting resources. The other 12.9 million people are providing them no value other than a big number to brag about.


Glad we're both already romantically involved because I am Smiley: inlove with this post Smiley: laugh
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#67 Mar 26 2013 at 9:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
Turning away customers who aren't paying you money anyway doesn't cost you a dime.


Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

I'm a good example. I bought GW2, and haven't bought a single thing from the gem store. In fact, nobody I know has bought anything from the gem store.

Meanwhile, I'll be giving SE my legacy monthly fee when playing FFXIV... actually, two monthly fees, because my wife is playing too. And I'll be buying a PS3 version. It doesn't take a lot of people like me to make F2P very worthwhile over the long run.

Over the same period of time, GW2 (f2p) will never profit from me beyond what I spent on the initial game.

Edited, Mar 26th 2013 7:01pm by Thayos


I think it's fair to say that you're a unique case. Square Enix does not have to create a payment model which will please you, because it sounds like you are going to play regardless.

Square Enix does need to create a payment model which will bring in fresh blood. Bring in the average gamer. I don't know if this means free-to-play, free trials up to a certain level, buy-to-play, or what.

Edited, Mar 26th 2013 11:24pm by Killua125
#68 Mar 26 2013 at 9:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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The average gamer is above thirty years old and has kids and a career these days. They can afford to pay $15 a month for quality.
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#69 Mar 26 2013 at 9:45 PM Rating: Default
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It's about bringing them in. The average gamer can and will pay for a game they like, but bringing people in with a subscription model is a whole different story these days.
#70 Mar 26 2013 at 9:58 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
[quote]Turning away customers who aren't paying you money anyway doesn't cost you a dime.


Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

I'm a good example. I bought GW2, and haven't bought a single thing from the gem store. In fact, nobody I know has bought anything from the gem store.

Meanwhile, I'll be giving SE my legacy monthly fee when playing FFXIV... actually, two monthly fees, because my wife is playing too. And I'll be buying a PS3 version. It doesn't take a lot of people like me to make F2P very worthwhile over the long run.

Over the same period of time, GW2 (f2p) will never profit from me beyond what I spent on the initial game.


Same story here :) Tho i will not garantee i will P2P FFXIV if end game is lacking, but i will give it an honest try.
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#71 Mar 26 2013 at 10:12 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
The average gamer is above thirty years old and has kids and a career these days. They can afford to pay $15 a month for quality.


Indeed. The average had been 37 up till a couple of years ago when people realized smart phones and tablets should be included in the calculation, and then the age suddenly dropped to 30.
http://kotaku.com/5931077/the-average-age-of-a-gamer-just-dropped-by-seven-years-um-what

Edited, Mar 27th 2013 12:14am by Xoie
#72 Mar 26 2013 at 10:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
It's about bringing them in. The average gamer can and will pay for a game they like, but bringing people in with a subscription model is a whole different story these days.


$180 a year is less than 3 regular games. I buy very few, so it's not a stretch at all. That being said, I'm currently in love with Gamefly. At the rate I fly through them any more, it's just not worth sticker price.

Regarding the F2P vs P2P conversation; **** near EVERY game used to be F2P. Now you can't even finish some games without visiting their DLC shop. And don't even get me started on all those "Free" games for mobile devices. This trend is what's really under my skin about the industry lately. So, I've given up "completing" games and just keep them the 3 or 4 days it takes me to finish the story, then send them back. If I play anything that's over 10 hours any more, it's a big surprise.

I really don't see the sub fee payment method being a barrier to entry any longer either. With the advent of loadable debit cards and such, there's no reason a kid can't spend his allowance on a sub fee. On the other hand, an adult budgeting for video games can just take 3 mediocre titles off the "maybe" list and steer those funds towards the sub fee. And like Cat said, the average gaming population is in their 30's. If they're anything like me, they just want to set up that auto payment for the sub fee on their debit/credit card and forget about it. The convenience is worth it. I also prefer the sub fee model because it does somewhat limit spammers and RMT. I know it doesn't get rid of them completely, but it is a barrier to them. And I'm certainly all for that.

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#73 Mar 26 2013 at 10:39 PM Rating: Good
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This thread has made me want to play everquest 2... Haven't thought about my favourite "free to play" game in awhile.

I generally agree in terms of FtP vs PtP, but I think people are forgetting that it is not really black and white, lots of games have subscriber options which give you the whole kitten caboodle in terms of access to content with a sub (and with EQ2 a recurring monthy sub includes some currency for costume items/mounts etc) while making extra from costume items etc

I can say everquest 2 made way more money off me than they would have without their cashshop... Only paid for 3 months subscription but I bought a unicorn mount, a rhino mount... A house... Etc

Free to play is often badly done but I think people are overswinging a bit. I never noticed any worse community than say, wow, in EQ2... And never got a RMT tell (vs FFXI, which I have)

Anyway, I just don't think even if XIV did have free to play options it would necessarily be the end of the world. I might even still like the game as long as it isn't pay to win.

As for free to play mobile games, well those, yes, pretty much universally suck.


Edited, Mar 26th 2013 9:41pm by Olorinus
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#74 Mar 26 2013 at 10:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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The average gamer is above thirty years old and has kids and a career these days. They can afford to pay $15 a month for quality.


I very much agree with this. And I'm willing to pay more money over time if that means playing a game with a more invested community.

As a previous poster said, I am different than other gamers because 1) I plan on playing FFXIV, and 2) I'm a lifelong fan of the Final Fantasy franchise (I started playing at the launch of the first title, and not FFVII). This game doesn't have to be the best MMO ever in order to win several years of my business. It just needs to be good.

If it's not good, then I'll give it the same treatment I'm giving GW2... beat the central storyline as soon as possible so I can move onto something else. There's a reason I enjoy Final Fantasy games so deeply though, and I really enjoyed the storyline Yoshi-P introduced to v1.x. Based on that, I'm confident that I won't be disappointed by 2.0.
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#75 Mar 27 2013 at 12:07 AM Rating: Excellent
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
Turning away customers who aren't paying you money anyway doesn't cost you a dime.


Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

I'm a good example. I bought GW2, and haven't bought a single thing from the gem store. In fact, nobody I know has bought anything from the gem store.

Meanwhile, I'll be giving SE my legacy monthly fee when playing FFXIV... actually, two monthly fees, because my wife is playing too. And I'll be buying a PS3 version. It doesn't take a lot of people like me to make F2P very worthwhile over the long run.

Over the same period of time, GW2 (f2p) will never profit from me beyond what I spent on the initial game.

Edited, Mar 26th 2013 7:01pm by Thayos


Wint wrote:
catwho wrote:
preludes wrote:
catwho wrote:
preludes wrote:
Simply put a new MMO customer has to ask themselves.

Why should I pay monthly, every...single month for a game when I can play another one that is very similar for nothing at all. Can anyone list a reason they should? Just being a FF title isn't enough anymore.


Because it keeps the 13 year old script kiddies OUT OF THE GAME.


You talk like ARR is in a position to turn away customers, beggars can't be choosers. They just came from a failure so embarassing they had to rebuild the game due to it possibly destroying the entire brand of FF.



Turning away customers who aren't paying you money anyway doesn't cost you a dime.

Beggars gain nothing from begging from other beggars.

WoW was only the most successful MMO of all time because it had thirteen million people paying them money. If a sub base has thirteen million people, but only a hundred thousand of them actually ever spend any money, the company is wasting resources. The other 12.9 million people are providing them no value other than a big number to brag about.


Glad we're both already romantically involved because I am Smiley: inlove with this post Smiley: laugh


I'm going to need all of you to stop spouting good old fashioned common sense. It hurts my brain.
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#76 Mar 27 2013 at 4:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
This thread has made me want to play everquest 2... Haven't thought about my favourite "free to play" game in awhile.

I generally agree in terms of FtP vs PtP, but I think people are forgetting that it is not really black and white, lots of games have subscriber options which give you the whole kitten caboodle in terms of access to content with a sub (and with EQ2 a recurring monthy sub includes some currency for costume items/mounts etc) while making extra from costume items etc

I can say everquest 2 made way more money off me than they would have without their cashshop... Only paid for 3 months subscription but I bought a unicorn mount, a rhino mount... A house... Etc

Free to play is often badly done but I think people are overswinging a bit. I never noticed any worse community than say, wow, in EQ2... And never got a RMT tell (vs FFXI, which I have)

Anyway, I just don't think even if XIV did have free to play options it would necessarily be the end of the world. I might even still like the game as long as it isn't pay to win.

As for free to play mobile games, well those, yes, pretty much universally suck.


Edited, Mar 26th 2013 9:41pm by Olorinus


I agree. There is definitely an exaggeration going on here about the effects of free-to-play versus pay-to-play, but Final Fantasy fans have always been like this.

People used to suggest that it was a good time for Final Fantasy XI to go free, and that was always met with widespread negativity. Users who were normally calm/civil would verbally berate whoever suggested it. It was quite strange.

I don't really care that much. After all, Square Enix is likely going to introduce microtransactions even if the game stays P2P. I know that FFXI has had microtransactions in certain forms, and I expect FFXIV to go 10 steps further with pets, mounts, and more for real money. While I'm not poor or unable to afford it, that would get to be a bit much on top of a subscription fee.
#77 Mar 27 2013 at 4:43 AM Rating: Decent
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After all, Square Enix is likely going to introduce microtransactions even if the game stays P2P. I know that FFXI has had microtransactions in certain forms, and I expect FFXIV to go 10 steps further with pets, mounts, and more for real money. While I'm not poor or unable to afford it, that would get to be a bit much on top of a subscription fee.

And what makes you assume SE is not aware that many people would feel the same and leave the game, resulting in less overall profit?
#78 Mar 27 2013 at 4:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
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Turning away customers who aren't paying you money anyway doesn't cost you a dime.


Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

I'm a good example. I bought GW2, and haven't bought a single thing from the gem store. In fact, nobody I know has bought anything from the gem store.

Meanwhile, I'll be giving SE my legacy monthly fee when playing FFXIV... actually, two monthly fees, because my wife is playing too. And I'll be buying a PS3 version. It doesn't take a lot of people like me to make F2P very worthwhile over the long run.

Over the same period of time, GW2 (f2p) will never profit from me beyond what I spent on the initial game.

Edited, Mar 26th 2013 7:01pm by Thayos


Actually you're wrong but then I thought the same when I was a XI player.

Free to play is amazingly successfull and it works so well because it lets people that never give you money still be customers.

There are 3 kinds of free to play people a)whale buyers that buy items to resell ingame via gold, b)casual buyers that spend roughly what a P2P player would put into a game and c)completely free to play people that buy cash shop items with ingame gold from the broker. They are all important customers because (a) can't function without (c). You also need to keep in mind that most AAA F2P mmos offer sub options with additional benefits if people want to do that.

You have a cash shop with items people can buy, you allow those items to be sold ingame via the broker. Now you have people that can buy those items outright from the cash shop and you also have people that will never give you money but will buy those items from the auction house that others have bought to gain gold ingame. It's very easy to turn completely free to play people into customers in this way.

Also Yoshi as I stated before has said in interviews that he is perfectly fine with changing the payment system later on but wanted to launch as p2p, this is what every major mmo has done for the last few years and they all went f2p. You start as p2p to get box sales mainly, then 6-12 months later you swap to f2p as Yoshi hinted at.
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#79 Mar 27 2013 at 5:27 AM Rating: Good
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@preludes
Basically, what you advocate there is the stratification of the player population into "AAA customers" (group A) who buy their way to the top, "poor sobs" (group B) who also pay the equivalent of a subscription fee but will never be able to catch up to the triple As, and "ultracasuals" (group C) whose main reason for existence is to have some fun until they hop on to the next game - and to serve as redshirts in PvP and feed the AAAs.

Is that really what people want? A caste system based on real life money?
Shouldn't success and progress in video games depend primarily on your abilities?
Is that notion that old-fashioned?
#80 Mar 27 2013 at 7:10 AM Rating: Decent
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It's easy to make the system I mentioned work well, so that any negatives are kept to a minimum.

(A) Buy items to change into gold because they have a large amount of money they can waste on the game, they can only do this because (c) buys the stuff they put on the broker. Swimsuits etc
You can say these people are bad but these exist in every pay to play mmo anyway, they were everywhere in FFXI and they will be in XIV no matter what system they use. Infact most RMT prefer P2P games because they can make far more profit in them.
(B) You can make a subscriber system in a f2p game where you pay $12 a month and get benefits to boost them up, more raid access or gold benefits etc.
(C) Get to play the game completely for free, if they are good players they can be among the top in the game though, because they can do the content and sell the drops for gold. These people stick with games just as long as p2p players do, if not longer because they never get locked out of the game and can come back for new content or whenever they want.

The different kinds of players rarely make any difference to how well you can do in the game in the long run because if you can do the endgame content and sell the drops you can be as rich as (a) even if you pay nothing.

The whole point was that people that pay nothing can be just as valuable or more valuable than someone that pays $12 a month. A free to play player that gives you no money can still be far more valuable than a p2p subscriber to Square enix. $12 a month is nothing considering how much these games cost to create and continually update, FFXIV especially considering how much it's costing. A free to play player can buy 2-3 costumes in a month from the broker with ingame gold and already be worth 3x as much as a subber.


Edited, Mar 27th 2013 9:14am by preludes
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#81 Mar 27 2013 at 7:13 AM Rating: Excellent
In fact, I am 100 percent correct in what I said about myself.

People can talk all they would like about the benefits of f2p. At the end of the day though, it is a difference of paying to play the game vs. paying to buy imaginary items or access dungeons/areas that you should already have access to.

Good game content isn't completed through a cash shop.
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#82 Mar 27 2013 at 7:18 AM Rating: Decent
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You haven't played a game with a good f2p system.

Free to play is better for the company and better for the players, if done correctly. It all boils down to this, do you trust SE to make a fair F2P system? There are plenty of games out there with great f2p systems.

Also it's not a case of if the game was p2p you would get all these items for free because the items would not be made if not for being sold in the cash shop. It's like saying you should not have to pay for DLC for xbox games, the DLC would not be made if not for that.
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#83 Mar 27 2013 at 7:42 AM Rating: Good
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You haven't played a game with a good f2p system.

Well. That alone is pretty tell-tale I think.

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Free to play is better for the company and better for the players, if done correctly. It all boils down to this, do you trust SE to make a fair F2P system? There are plenty of games out there with great f2p systems.

Right. Yet I still have to see a single case where the IF left the realm of the purely speculative. Do I trust SE to make a fair FtP system? No, because I doubt that a FtP system that would meet my definition of "fair game" exists. One that limits paid content to cosmetics? - Such a game does not exist, since it would never make enough money to survive. Is it one that limits paid content to EXP boosts and consumables like potions? - I don't consider that fair, because in the end those who pay more get more. Is it a game like SWtoR, which sells UI elements piecemeal, because you are, theoretically completely fine with just a limited number of action slots? Sorry, but I've yet to see a FtP system I would buy into. Name one.

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Also it's not a case of if the game was p2p you would get all these items for free because the items would not be made if not for being sold in the cash shop. It's like saying you should not have to pay for DLC for xbox games, the DLC would not be made if not for that.

Harr harr harr!!! When I was young, games were sold almost bug-free with all the content included from the get-go. Your argumentation is circular; DLCs exist right because people pay for them; in a subscription based game, the subscriber can expect a constantly updated assortment of good new items for free, because the respective development costs are covered by the subscription fee. The difference is just that in a subscription based game, the chances to obtain such items rise in relation to your efforts, while in FtP games the chances rise in relation to your wallet.
#84 Mar 27 2013 at 8:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Lol did someone actually mentioned DLCs? Dlcs were made in an effort to leech money from the players. The fact that there are people buying them doesn't mean its "better" for the players. What was the game that had the dlc pre installed in the game but was locked till the company "release" it and you buy it? I can't remember.

Anyway enough with the off topic from my behalf.

My opinion is that F2P games are not better for the players as someone mentioned. Well...i am not 100% right there. What i should say is that F2P is not better for players like me or from what i read Thayos or catwho etc for reasons listed in previous posts. On the other hand F2P is also good for players probably like you for the "benefits" that can provide like playing for free.

It all comes down in what you really like for me its always P2P.
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#85 Mar 27 2013 at 8:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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A lot of this is wholly dependent on how well the game does, which nobody can predict yet. Personally I'm optimistic Smiley: thumbsup
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#86 Mar 27 2013 at 9:18 AM Rating: Good
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I think DLC is acceptable in wholly offline games, or primarily offline games with minimal social networking. For example, in The Sims. You could buy "stuff packs" even for the original Sims I, before the phrase "DLC" was a thing. (DLC as we know it came into existence with broadband Internet.) You paid $10 for a stuff pack, which included new clothes, new furnitures, new wallpaper, etc. It did not change the core functionality of the game - your Sim is pretty much happy in whatever outfit you dress them in - but it expanded the options for decoration and increased the possible fun levels.

For online games, however, DLC content, cash shops, etc immediately turn the entire social strata into the Haves and Have Nots. In FFXI, the Haves are usually people who had time to invest in endgame and successfully networked endgame. The Have Nots for the most part know that if they too invest a similar amount of time and effort, they'll get there. In F2P games with cash shops, the Haves are people who've spent hundreds of dollars in real life on virtual crap, and the Have Nots are everyone else.

I don't have several hundred dollars to blow on virtual games, but I do have time. P2P games reward people who invest time, instead of real life money. Since we're talking out entertainment, I have no problem investing time provided that time is enjoyable.
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#87 Mar 27 2013 at 9:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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The difference is just that in a subscription based game, the chances to obtain such items rise in relation to your efforts, while in FtP games the chances rise in relation to your wallet.


Exactly, which is why people like me will always see F2P games as inferior, both in terms of gameplay and community.

There is simply no "good way" that F2P can be implemented so that it's truly better than P2P. The only real benefit of some F2P games is that people like me can play through all of the important content without having to pay for anything beyond the core game.

Quote:
P2P games reward people who invest time, instead of real life money. Since we're talking out entertainment, I have no problem investing time provided that time is enjoyable.


Bingo!

I want to just buy a game and pay a small fee to keep playing it, and I want access to everything. I don't mind paying more for the occasional expansion, as long as I don't have to buy that content in arbitrary bits and pieces. I also don't want my game's development team obsessed with how they can monetize a cash shop, rather than how they could be improving the meaningful content of the game. I'd rather immerse myself in a game filled with cool features and content, and work to achieve/earn those contents through my own efforts.

Remember how cool mannequins were in FFXI? Imagine how lame those would have been if they'd been bought from a cash shop. The only reason mannequins were so special is that gathering all the pieces required hours of adventuring.

Edited, Mar 27th 2013 8:54am by Thayos
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#88 Mar 27 2013 at 10:18 AM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
I want to just buy a game and pay a small fee to keep playing it.


That's fine, but you are a minority, and Square Enix can't afford to market towards the minority. Gamers in general have been spoiled by much more convenient models.

I respect your opinion, and I don't entirely disagree with it, but this thread was about Square Enix's finance troubles. That's why free-to-play was originally brought up.

In this day and age, I think buy-to-play with a monthly subscription after buying it... is an extremely tough sell.

For a game which originally received widespread hatred, even from die-hard fans... it might even be an impossible sell.

Edited, Mar 27th 2013 12:32pm by Killua125
#89 Mar 27 2013 at 10:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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preludes wrote:
You haven't played a game with a good f2p system.

Free to play is better for the company and better for the players, if done correctly. It all boils down to this, do you trust SE to make a fair F2P system? There are plenty of games out there with great f2p systems.

Also it's not a case of if the game was p2p you would get all these items for free because the items would not be made if not for being sold in the cash shop. It's like saying you should not have to pay for DLC for xbox games, the DLC would not be made if not for that.


The only game I've played with a good F2P system is League of Legends, simply because it allows you access to purely cosmetic changes, or champions that you would otherwise have to play for long periods of time to obtain. It has absolutely zero influence on ability, competitiveness, or skill. That's not a MMO, though, and even where Riot is wildly successful, even they have admitted that their model wouldn't work in a MMO. What has become apparent mostly because of the initial success and quickness SW:TOR went F2P is they exascerbated their loss of cash flow and alienated the core MMO audience with the change. The core MMO audience prefers the P2P model that allows them to pay for full access monthly rather than visit a store for unlocks of any fashion. That core is what makes a MMO profitable, the same core that keeps XI and WoW profitable that only develops from a game with compelling content(story) and ease of accessing that content (UI, playability, stability, etc.), but that's another issue altogether. The lesson that should have been learned, and I really hope SE has learned, is that all games have an initial surge and then recession of players as players try out the game, "beat" the game in whatever context they decide the end of the game is, and then move on. Being unprepared to handle the initial recession, such as combining servers that rapidly die out, and using that initial recession to gauge what payment model you should use was a huge mistake on the part of TOR, and I hope SE doesn't do the same.

Edited, Mar 27th 2013 12:32pm by Medieve
#90 Mar 27 2013 at 10:53 AM Rating: Good
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lol they want free to play because either A.) they want to leech on games B.) They lack the skill to start off on equal footing as everyone else to succeed, they need to pay their way to fame and glory! True MMO players <3 Sub fee mode. Plain and simple.

I doubt I could stomach another FtP MMO.. In fact, I despise it so much if ARR were FtP I wouldnt even play it.. DLC.. FtP.. Im tired of all the garbO.. Where are the true games? The one you buy and everything is given to you without having to pay to unlock it later?

Gaming along with many other things in the world is trying to move all extra fast and make a quick buck.. Its sad man.. Gaming is suppose to be a fun pass time but instead its begining to leave a bad taste in my mouth ALLTOGETHER.. Large corps looking at sales figures lower end game makers having to scrape for money through DLC and ftp just to stay afloat because of investors that they cant even make a true game the way it use to be made. Everything has to have an immediate payback..

Thats why SE is truely my only hope for gaming left. Like it has been said in posts before, they have no one they have to answer to. They invest time and money where they please how they please.. But it seems even them in several cases are going the way of the world and everything else..

Anyways. Thats my little rant :)
#91 Mar 27 2013 at 11:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
The average gamer is above thirty years old and has kids and a career these days. They can afford to pay $15 a month for quality.


This x500, you absolutely nailed it. We're not 17 anymore and saving our penies for a PS2 HDD so we can play XI. We don't need to beg mommy or daddy for a credit card to play an online MMO. Given the intelligent nerd bracket that a good chunk of us probably fall into, $15 is really, really nothing.

I remember back when they introduced subs to XIV I was arguing with a LS mate... he kept saying that XIV in its state then didn't justify a sub fee. I agreed, but I just said it was a measly $10 a month. For me I'd rather pay the money for a product I wasn't happy with but had the potential to do great. I wanted to show my support by putting my money where my mouth was.

Without going off too far on a tangent... I guess that's part of being an adult... understanding that at the end of the day some things are more important than money (however minimal). I'm sure any dedicated hobbyist would agree.


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#92 Mar 27 2013 at 11:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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That's fine, but you are a minority, and Square Enix can't afford to market towards the minority.


SE can most certainly afford to market toward a minority that is willing to pay monthly fees for several years. It's better that way for everyone, rather than a quick influx of cash-shop purchases, followed by a rapidly dwindling number of active gamers per server.
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#93 Mar 27 2013 at 11:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
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That's fine, but you are a minority, and Square Enix can't afford to market towards the minority.


SE can most certainly afford to market toward a minority that is willing to pay monthly fees for several years. It's better that way for everyone, rather than a quick influx of cash-shop purchases, followed by a rapidly dwindling number of active gamers per server.


Not to mention it would feel like an absolute rape of the Final Fantasy brand. They want 10 years out of this MMO (if not longer).
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#94 Mar 27 2013 at 11:51 AM Rating: Default
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My experience with f2p has been with Tera online, this is not some cheap f2p game. It's a 50 million dollar high quality AAA mmo like FFXIV, and you can play it for nothing and be on an equal footing with everyone else. You can also pay a sub if you wish and get game benefits.

They don't hold content back if you don't pay anything. I think playing a good MMO with a good f2p system changes your outlook on it honestly, as I mentioned before I felt the same as you and as most xi players do but experiencing it changed my view.

Free to play would be what's best for XIV, it's not a failing as it used to be it's how the market is now. There is almost zero negatives to XIV being free to play, but many positives and this is why I'm positive it will happen and when it does those in this thread saying how bad it is will be supporting it and saying how good it is for the game.
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#95 Mar 27 2013 at 11:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Tera was planned and released as P2P which is why it's AAA quality.

It went F2P because the people who pay for P2P games (i.e. the 30+ gamers) generally thought it was awful and not worth the fee. As someone on Reddit put it, it was "a great fighting game built around an MMO I don't want to play." I think it was a market disconnect more than anything. The 15 year old male demographic probably ate it up, but they're not the market that pays monthly fees. I'm a gal - I found the jiggle physics offensive and wanted to take the poor naked females shopping at Target for real clothes.

Penny Arcade also explains why many games go FTP...
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#96 Mar 27 2013 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Not to mention it would feel like an absolute rape of the Final Fantasy brand.
I heard that as an argument for FFXI. And the battle system in FFXIII. And the board for FFXII. FFVII being on Sony instead of Nintendo ...
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#97 Mar 27 2013 at 12:08 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
That's fine, but you are a minority, and Square Enix can't afford to market towards the minority.


SE can most certainly afford to market toward a minority that is willing to pay monthly fees for several years. It's better that way for everyone, rather than a quick influx of cash-shop purchases, followed by a rapidly dwindling number of active gamers per server.


Not to mention it would feel like an absolute rape of the Final Fantasy brand. They want 10 years out of this MMO (if not longer).


I have absolutely no idea how making FFXIV free-to-play for everyone would be raping the Final Fantasy brand... again, I really think you guys are exaggerating more than a little.

Rape of the Final Fantasy brand is milking the name dry with dozens of mobile re-releases and shoddy sequels, which, to stay on topic, Wada takes responsibility for.

Edited, Mar 27th 2013 2:14pm by Killua125
#98 Mar 27 2013 at 12:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
Wint wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
That's fine, but you are a minority, and Square Enix can't afford to market towards the minority.


SE can most certainly afford to market toward a minority that is willing to pay monthly fees for several years. It's better that way for everyone, rather than a quick influx of cash-shop purchases, followed by a rapidly dwindling number of active gamers per server.


Not to mention it would feel like an absolute rape of the Final Fantasy brand. They want 10 years out of this MMO (if not longer).


I have absolutely no idea how making FFXIV free-to-play for everyone would be raping the Final Fantasy brand... again, I really think you guys are exaggerating more than a little.

Rape of the Final Fantasy brand is milking the name dry with dozens of mobile re-releases, ports, and shoddy sequels, which, to stay on topic, Wada takes responsibility for.


I've already stated it before, going F2P is, in my own opinion (which you disagree with), a cheap cash grab that signals the death knell of any P2P game, not a sign of commitment.
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#99 Mar 27 2013 at 12:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Raping the FF brand is also everything you mentioned as well, no disagreements from me there.
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#100 Mar 27 2013 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good
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"Here at SE we care about the Final Fantasy Brand! We Respect It!"

Releases XIII..... "Well see that sold, lets shove this female cloud down their throats all while we laugh on our way down the bank"

"We know our games have not been quality the last few years but we are gonna fix that BELIEVE IT!"

Hey you toriyama, make XIII-2, just rehash the areas, use the same monsters, and just make a stupid story, WHO CARES IF IT MAKES NO SENSE DUDE TIME PARADOX BRAH!

"We at SE want you all to know we take the Final Fantasy legacy very serious.... How many times do we have to say it guys ? for reals is SERIOUS!"

Hey you monkey go make me a final fantasy for phones.... WHO CARES IF IS WORST THAN ANYTHING WE HAVE EVER RELESED!! Just name it Final Fantasy something man, and it will sell, **** with the name alone we can just charge $20 and call it a day.... Jesus just call it Final Fantasy Dimension and GET ON IT!!!! Oh and also make me a game where there is no strategy, no deepth no story, just random battles and the kicker will be that we will charge them money to unlock FF Main characters, yeah yeah another great idea, if you pay us money, it will be totally random Muahahaha You might spend 50 dollars and never see Cloud! Muahaha THIS SUCKERS!

..... SE..... Is beyond raping Final Fantasy.....
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Ostia wrote:
"Here at SE we care about the Final Fantasy Brand! We Respect It!"

Releases XIII..... "Well see that sold, lets shove this female cloud down their throats all while we laugh on our way down the bank"

"We know our games have not been quality the last few years but we are gonna fix that BELIEVE IT!"

Hey you toriyama, make XIII-2, just rehash the areas, use the same monsters, and just make a stupid story, WHO CARES IF IT MAKES NO SENSE DUDE TIME PARADOX BRAH!

"We at SE want you all to know we take the Final Fantasy legacy very serious.... How many times do we have to say it guys ? for reals is SERIOUS!"

Hey you monkey go make me a final fantasy for phones.... WHO CARES IF IS WORST THAN ANYTHING WE HAVE EVER RELESED!! Just name it Final Fantasy something man, and it will sell, sh*t with the name alone we can just charge $20 and call it a day.... Jesus just call it Final Fantasy Dimension and GET ON IT!!!! Oh and also make me a game where there is no strategy, no deepth no story, just random battles and the kicker will be that we will charge them money to unlock FF Main characters, yeah yeah another great idea, if you pay us money, it will be totally random Muahahaha You might spend 50 dollars and never see Cloud! Muahaha THIS SUCKERS!

..... SE..... Is beyond raping Final Fantasy.....


You need to switch to decaf (or lay off the Red Bull) Smiley: laugh
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