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#77 Mar 27 2013 at 4:43 AM Rating: Decent
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After all, Square Enix is likely going to introduce microtransactions even if the game stays P2P. I know that FFXI has had microtransactions in certain forms, and I expect FFXIV to go 10 steps further with pets, mounts, and more for real money. While I'm not poor or unable to afford it, that would get to be a bit much on top of a subscription fee.

And what makes you assume SE is not aware that many people would feel the same and leave the game, resulting in less overall profit?
#78 Mar 27 2013 at 4:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
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Turning away customers who aren't paying you money anyway doesn't cost you a dime.


Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

I'm a good example. I bought GW2, and haven't bought a single thing from the gem store. In fact, nobody I know has bought anything from the gem store.

Meanwhile, I'll be giving SE my legacy monthly fee when playing FFXIV... actually, two monthly fees, because my wife is playing too. And I'll be buying a PS3 version. It doesn't take a lot of people like me to make F2P very worthwhile over the long run.

Over the same period of time, GW2 (f2p) will never profit from me beyond what I spent on the initial game.

Edited, Mar 26th 2013 7:01pm by Thayos


Actually you're wrong but then I thought the same when I was a XI player.

Free to play is amazingly successfull and it works so well because it lets people that never give you money still be customers.

There are 3 kinds of free to play people a)whale buyers that buy items to resell ingame via gold, b)casual buyers that spend roughly what a P2P player would put into a game and c)completely free to play people that buy cash shop items with ingame gold from the broker. They are all important customers because (a) can't function without (c). You also need to keep in mind that most AAA F2P mmos offer sub options with additional benefits if people want to do that.

You have a cash shop with items people can buy, you allow those items to be sold ingame via the broker. Now you have people that can buy those items outright from the cash shop and you also have people that will never give you money but will buy those items from the auction house that others have bought to gain gold ingame. It's very easy to turn completely free to play people into customers in this way.

Also Yoshi as I stated before has said in interviews that he is perfectly fine with changing the payment system later on but wanted to launch as p2p, this is what every major mmo has done for the last few years and they all went f2p. You start as p2p to get box sales mainly, then 6-12 months later you swap to f2p as Yoshi hinted at.
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#79 Mar 27 2013 at 5:27 AM Rating: Good
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@preludes
Basically, what you advocate there is the stratification of the player population into "AAA customers" (group A) who buy their way to the top, "poor sobs" (group B) who also pay the equivalent of a subscription fee but will never be able to catch up to the triple As, and "ultracasuals" (group C) whose main reason for existence is to have some fun until they hop on to the next game - and to serve as redshirts in PvP and feed the AAAs.

Is that really what people want? A caste system based on real life money?
Shouldn't success and progress in video games depend primarily on your abilities?
Is that notion that old-fashioned?
#80 Mar 27 2013 at 7:10 AM Rating: Decent
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It's easy to make the system I mentioned work well, so that any negatives are kept to a minimum.

(A) Buy items to change into gold because they have a large amount of money they can waste on the game, they can only do this because (c) buys the stuff they put on the broker. Swimsuits etc
You can say these people are bad but these exist in every pay to play mmo anyway, they were everywhere in FFXI and they will be in XIV no matter what system they use. Infact most RMT prefer P2P games because they can make far more profit in them.
(B) You can make a subscriber system in a f2p game where you pay $12 a month and get benefits to boost them up, more raid access or gold benefits etc.
(C) Get to play the game completely for free, if they are good players they can be among the top in the game though, because they can do the content and sell the drops for gold. These people stick with games just as long as p2p players do, if not longer because they never get locked out of the game and can come back for new content or whenever they want.

The different kinds of players rarely make any difference to how well you can do in the game in the long run because if you can do the endgame content and sell the drops you can be as rich as (a) even if you pay nothing.

The whole point was that people that pay nothing can be just as valuable or more valuable than someone that pays $12 a month. A free to play player that gives you no money can still be far more valuable than a p2p subscriber to Square enix. $12 a month is nothing considering how much these games cost to create and continually update, FFXIV especially considering how much it's costing. A free to play player can buy 2-3 costumes in a month from the broker with ingame gold and already be worth 3x as much as a subber.


Edited, Mar 27th 2013 9:14am by preludes
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#81 Mar 27 2013 at 7:13 AM Rating: Excellent
In fact, I am 100 percent correct in what I said about myself.

People can talk all they would like about the benefits of f2p. At the end of the day though, it is a difference of paying to play the game vs. paying to buy imaginary items or access dungeons/areas that you should already have access to.

Good game content isn't completed through a cash shop.
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#82 Mar 27 2013 at 7:18 AM Rating: Decent
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You haven't played a game with a good f2p system.

Free to play is better for the company and better for the players, if done correctly. It all boils down to this, do you trust SE to make a fair F2P system? There are plenty of games out there with great f2p systems.

Also it's not a case of if the game was p2p you would get all these items for free because the items would not be made if not for being sold in the cash shop. It's like saying you should not have to pay for DLC for xbox games, the DLC would not be made if not for that.
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#83 Mar 27 2013 at 7:42 AM Rating: Good
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You haven't played a game with a good f2p system.

Well. That alone is pretty tell-tale I think.

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Free to play is better for the company and better for the players, if done correctly. It all boils down to this, do you trust SE to make a fair F2P system? There are plenty of games out there with great f2p systems.

Right. Yet I still have to see a single case where the IF left the realm of the purely speculative. Do I trust SE to make a fair FtP system? No, because I doubt that a FtP system that would meet my definition of "fair game" exists. One that limits paid content to cosmetics? - Such a game does not exist, since it would never make enough money to survive. Is it one that limits paid content to EXP boosts and consumables like potions? - I don't consider that fair, because in the end those who pay more get more. Is it a game like SWtoR, which sells UI elements piecemeal, because you are, theoretically completely fine with just a limited number of action slots? Sorry, but I've yet to see a FtP system I would buy into. Name one.

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Also it's not a case of if the game was p2p you would get all these items for free because the items would not be made if not for being sold in the cash shop. It's like saying you should not have to pay for DLC for xbox games, the DLC would not be made if not for that.

Harr harr harr!!! When I was young, games were sold almost bug-free with all the content included from the get-go. Your argumentation is circular; DLCs exist right because people pay for them; in a subscription based game, the subscriber can expect a constantly updated assortment of good new items for free, because the respective development costs are covered by the subscription fee. The difference is just that in a subscription based game, the chances to obtain such items rise in relation to your efforts, while in FtP games the chances rise in relation to your wallet.
#84 Mar 27 2013 at 8:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Lol did someone actually mentioned DLCs? Dlcs were made in an effort to leech money from the players. The fact that there are people buying them doesn't mean its "better" for the players. What was the game that had the dlc pre installed in the game but was locked till the company "release" it and you buy it? I can't remember.

Anyway enough with the off topic from my behalf.

My opinion is that F2P games are not better for the players as someone mentioned. Well...i am not 100% right there. What i should say is that F2P is not better for players like me or from what i read Thayos or catwho etc for reasons listed in previous posts. On the other hand F2P is also good for players probably like you for the "benefits" that can provide like playing for free.

It all comes down in what you really like for me its always P2P.
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#85 Mar 27 2013 at 8:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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A lot of this is wholly dependent on how well the game does, which nobody can predict yet. Personally I'm optimistic Smiley: thumbsup
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#86 Mar 27 2013 at 9:18 AM Rating: Good
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I think DLC is acceptable in wholly offline games, or primarily offline games with minimal social networking. For example, in The Sims. You could buy "stuff packs" even for the original Sims I, before the phrase "DLC" was a thing. (DLC as we know it came into existence with broadband Internet.) You paid $10 for a stuff pack, which included new clothes, new furnitures, new wallpaper, etc. It did not change the core functionality of the game - your Sim is pretty much happy in whatever outfit you dress them in - but it expanded the options for decoration and increased the possible fun levels.

For online games, however, DLC content, cash shops, etc immediately turn the entire social strata into the Haves and Have Nots. In FFXI, the Haves are usually people who had time to invest in endgame and successfully networked endgame. The Have Nots for the most part know that if they too invest a similar amount of time and effort, they'll get there. In F2P games with cash shops, the Haves are people who've spent hundreds of dollars in real life on virtual crap, and the Have Nots are everyone else.

I don't have several hundred dollars to blow on virtual games, but I do have time. P2P games reward people who invest time, instead of real life money. Since we're talking out entertainment, I have no problem investing time provided that time is enjoyable.
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#87 Mar 27 2013 at 9:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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The difference is just that in a subscription based game, the chances to obtain such items rise in relation to your efforts, while in FtP games the chances rise in relation to your wallet.


Exactly, which is why people like me will always see F2P games as inferior, both in terms of gameplay and community.

There is simply no "good way" that F2P can be implemented so that it's truly better than P2P. The only real benefit of some F2P games is that people like me can play through all of the important content without having to pay for anything beyond the core game.

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P2P games reward people who invest time, instead of real life money. Since we're talking out entertainment, I have no problem investing time provided that time is enjoyable.


Bingo!

I want to just buy a game and pay a small fee to keep playing it, and I want access to everything. I don't mind paying more for the occasional expansion, as long as I don't have to buy that content in arbitrary bits and pieces. I also don't want my game's development team obsessed with how they can monetize a cash shop, rather than how they could be improving the meaningful content of the game. I'd rather immerse myself in a game filled with cool features and content, and work to achieve/earn those contents through my own efforts.

Remember how cool mannequins were in FFXI? Imagine how lame those would have been if they'd been bought from a cash shop. The only reason mannequins were so special is that gathering all the pieces required hours of adventuring.

Edited, Mar 27th 2013 8:54am by Thayos
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#88 Mar 27 2013 at 10:18 AM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
I want to just buy a game and pay a small fee to keep playing it.


That's fine, but you are a minority, and Square Enix can't afford to market towards the minority. Gamers in general have been spoiled by much more convenient models.

I respect your opinion, and I don't entirely disagree with it, but this thread was about Square Enix's finance troubles. That's why free-to-play was originally brought up.

In this day and age, I think buy-to-play with a monthly subscription after buying it... is an extremely tough sell.

For a game which originally received widespread hatred, even from die-hard fans... it might even be an impossible sell.

Edited, Mar 27th 2013 12:32pm by Killua125
#89 Mar 27 2013 at 10:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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preludes wrote:
You haven't played a game with a good f2p system.

Free to play is better for the company and better for the players, if done correctly. It all boils down to this, do you trust SE to make a fair F2P system? There are plenty of games out there with great f2p systems.

Also it's not a case of if the game was p2p you would get all these items for free because the items would not be made if not for being sold in the cash shop. It's like saying you should not have to pay for DLC for xbox games, the DLC would not be made if not for that.


The only game I've played with a good F2P system is League of Legends, simply because it allows you access to purely cosmetic changes, or champions that you would otherwise have to play for long periods of time to obtain. It has absolutely zero influence on ability, competitiveness, or skill. That's not a MMO, though, and even where Riot is wildly successful, even they have admitted that their model wouldn't work in a MMO. What has become apparent mostly because of the initial success and quickness SW:TOR went F2P is they exascerbated their loss of cash flow and alienated the core MMO audience with the change. The core MMO audience prefers the P2P model that allows them to pay for full access monthly rather than visit a store for unlocks of any fashion. That core is what makes a MMO profitable, the same core that keeps XI and WoW profitable that only develops from a game with compelling content(story) and ease of accessing that content (UI, playability, stability, etc.), but that's another issue altogether. The lesson that should have been learned, and I really hope SE has learned, is that all games have an initial surge and then recession of players as players try out the game, "beat" the game in whatever context they decide the end of the game is, and then move on. Being unprepared to handle the initial recession, such as combining servers that rapidly die out, and using that initial recession to gauge what payment model you should use was a huge mistake on the part of TOR, and I hope SE doesn't do the same.

Edited, Mar 27th 2013 12:32pm by Medieve
#90 Mar 27 2013 at 10:53 AM Rating: Good
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lol they want free to play because either A.) they want to leech on games B.) They lack the skill to start off on equal footing as everyone else to succeed, they need to pay their way to fame and glory! True MMO players <3 Sub fee mode. Plain and simple.

I doubt I could stomach another FtP MMO.. In fact, I despise it so much if ARR were FtP I wouldnt even play it.. DLC.. FtP.. Im tired of all the garbO.. Where are the true games? The one you buy and everything is given to you without having to pay to unlock it later?

Gaming along with many other things in the world is trying to move all extra fast and make a quick buck.. Its sad man.. Gaming is suppose to be a fun pass time but instead its begining to leave a bad taste in my mouth ALLTOGETHER.. Large corps looking at sales figures lower end game makers having to scrape for money through DLC and ftp just to stay afloat because of investors that they cant even make a true game the way it use to be made. Everything has to have an immediate payback..

Thats why SE is truely my only hope for gaming left. Like it has been said in posts before, they have no one they have to answer to. They invest time and money where they please how they please.. But it seems even them in several cases are going the way of the world and everything else..

Anyways. Thats my little rant :)
#91 Mar 27 2013 at 11:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
The average gamer is above thirty years old and has kids and a career these days. They can afford to pay $15 a month for quality.


This x500, you absolutely nailed it. We're not 17 anymore and saving our penies for a PS2 HDD so we can play XI. We don't need to beg mommy or daddy for a credit card to play an online MMO. Given the intelligent nerd bracket that a good chunk of us probably fall into, $15 is really, really nothing.

I remember back when they introduced subs to XIV I was arguing with a LS mate... he kept saying that XIV in its state then didn't justify a sub fee. I agreed, but I just said it was a measly $10 a month. For me I'd rather pay the money for a product I wasn't happy with but had the potential to do great. I wanted to show my support by putting my money where my mouth was.

Without going off too far on a tangent... I guess that's part of being an adult... understanding that at the end of the day some things are more important than money (however minimal). I'm sure any dedicated hobbyist would agree.


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#92 Mar 27 2013 at 11:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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That's fine, but you are a minority, and Square Enix can't afford to market towards the minority.


SE can most certainly afford to market toward a minority that is willing to pay monthly fees for several years. It's better that way for everyone, rather than a quick influx of cash-shop purchases, followed by a rapidly dwindling number of active gamers per server.
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#93 Mar 27 2013 at 11:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
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That's fine, but you are a minority, and Square Enix can't afford to market towards the minority.


SE can most certainly afford to market toward a minority that is willing to pay monthly fees for several years. It's better that way for everyone, rather than a quick influx of cash-shop purchases, followed by a rapidly dwindling number of active gamers per server.


Not to mention it would feel like an absolute rape of the Final Fantasy brand. They want 10 years out of this MMO (if not longer).
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#94 Mar 27 2013 at 11:51 AM Rating: Default
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My experience with f2p has been with Tera online, this is not some cheap f2p game. It's a 50 million dollar high quality AAA mmo like FFXIV, and you can play it for nothing and be on an equal footing with everyone else. You can also pay a sub if you wish and get game benefits.

They don't hold content back if you don't pay anything. I think playing a good MMO with a good f2p system changes your outlook on it honestly, as I mentioned before I felt the same as you and as most xi players do but experiencing it changed my view.

Free to play would be what's best for XIV, it's not a failing as it used to be it's how the market is now. There is almost zero negatives to XIV being free to play, but many positives and this is why I'm positive it will happen and when it does those in this thread saying how bad it is will be supporting it and saying how good it is for the game.
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#95 Mar 27 2013 at 11:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Tera was planned and released as P2P which is why it's AAA quality.

It went F2P because the people who pay for P2P games (i.e. the 30+ gamers) generally thought it was awful and not worth the fee. As someone on Reddit put it, it was "a great fighting game built around an MMO I don't want to play." I think it was a market disconnect more than anything. The 15 year old male demographic probably ate it up, but they're not the market that pays monthly fees. I'm a gal - I found the jiggle physics offensive and wanted to take the poor naked females shopping at Target for real clothes.

Penny Arcade also explains why many games go FTP...
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#96 Mar 27 2013 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Not to mention it would feel like an absolute rape of the Final Fantasy brand.
I heard that as an argument for FFXI. And the battle system in FFXIII. And the board for FFXII. FFVII being on Sony instead of Nintendo ...
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#97 Mar 27 2013 at 12:08 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Thayos wrote:
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That's fine, but you are a minority, and Square Enix can't afford to market towards the minority.


SE can most certainly afford to market toward a minority that is willing to pay monthly fees for several years. It's better that way for everyone, rather than a quick influx of cash-shop purchases, followed by a rapidly dwindling number of active gamers per server.


Not to mention it would feel like an absolute rape of the Final Fantasy brand. They want 10 years out of this MMO (if not longer).


I have absolutely no idea how making FFXIV free-to-play for everyone would be raping the Final Fantasy brand... again, I really think you guys are exaggerating more than a little.

Rape of the Final Fantasy brand is milking the name dry with dozens of mobile re-releases and shoddy sequels, which, to stay on topic, Wada takes responsibility for.

Edited, Mar 27th 2013 2:14pm by Killua125
#98 Mar 27 2013 at 12:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
Wint wrote:
Thayos wrote:
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That's fine, but you are a minority, and Square Enix can't afford to market towards the minority.


SE can most certainly afford to market toward a minority that is willing to pay monthly fees for several years. It's better that way for everyone, rather than a quick influx of cash-shop purchases, followed by a rapidly dwindling number of active gamers per server.


Not to mention it would feel like an absolute rape of the Final Fantasy brand. They want 10 years out of this MMO (if not longer).


I have absolutely no idea how making FFXIV free-to-play for everyone would be raping the Final Fantasy brand... again, I really think you guys are exaggerating more than a little.

Rape of the Final Fantasy brand is milking the name dry with dozens of mobile re-releases, ports, and shoddy sequels, which, to stay on topic, Wada takes responsibility for.


I've already stated it before, going F2P is, in my own opinion (which you disagree with), a cheap cash grab that signals the death knell of any P2P game, not a sign of commitment.
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#99 Mar 27 2013 at 12:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Raping the FF brand is also everything you mentioned as well, no disagreements from me there.
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#100 Mar 27 2013 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good
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"Here at SE we care about the Final Fantasy Brand! We Respect It!"

Releases XIII..... "Well see that sold, lets shove this female cloud down their throats all while we laugh on our way down the bank"

"We know our games have not been quality the last few years but we are gonna fix that BELIEVE IT!"

Hey you toriyama, make XIII-2, just rehash the areas, use the same monsters, and just make a stupid story, WHO CARES IF IT MAKES NO SENSE DUDE TIME PARADOX BRAH!

"We at SE want you all to know we take the Final Fantasy legacy very serious.... How many times do we have to say it guys ? for reals is SERIOUS!"

Hey you monkey go make me a final fantasy for phones.... WHO CARES IF IS WORST THAN ANYTHING WE HAVE EVER RELESED!! Just name it Final Fantasy something man, and it will sell, **** with the name alone we can just charge $20 and call it a day.... Jesus just call it Final Fantasy Dimension and GET ON IT!!!! Oh and also make me a game where there is no strategy, no deepth no story, just random battles and the kicker will be that we will charge them money to unlock FF Main characters, yeah yeah another great idea, if you pay us money, it will be totally random Muahahaha You might spend 50 dollars and never see Cloud! Muahaha THIS SUCKERS!

..... SE..... Is beyond raping Final Fantasy.....
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#101 Mar 27 2013 at 12:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
"Here at SE we care about the Final Fantasy Brand! We Respect It!"

Releases XIII..... "Well see that sold, lets shove this female cloud down their throats all while we laugh on our way down the bank"

"We know our games have not been quality the last few years but we are gonna fix that BELIEVE IT!"

Hey you toriyama, make XIII-2, just rehash the areas, use the same monsters, and just make a stupid story, WHO CARES IF IT MAKES NO SENSE DUDE TIME PARADOX BRAH!

"We at SE want you all to know we take the Final Fantasy legacy very serious.... How many times do we have to say it guys ? for reals is SERIOUS!"

Hey you monkey go make me a final fantasy for phones.... WHO CARES IF IS WORST THAN ANYTHING WE HAVE EVER RELESED!! Just name it Final Fantasy something man, and it will sell, sh*t with the name alone we can just charge $20 and call it a day.... Jesus just call it Final Fantasy Dimension and GET ON IT!!!! Oh and also make me a game where there is no strategy, no deepth no story, just random battles and the kicker will be that we will charge them money to unlock FF Main characters, yeah yeah another great idea, if you pay us money, it will be totally random Muahahaha You might spend 50 dollars and never see Cloud! Muahaha THIS SUCKERS!

..... SE..... Is beyond raping Final Fantasy.....


You need to switch to decaf (or lay off the Red Bull) Smiley: laugh
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