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#202 Mar 28 2013 at 10:29 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Were Xenogears and Xenosaga supposed to be related at all? If they were I definitely don't see how Smiley: laugh I hadn't played Xenogears before Xenosaga, so I really enjoyed myself.


The plan was for the creators of Xenogears to produce episode 1-7( or was it 6 ? ) under the name Xenogears. But square i guess ignored them or shelved the IP for years and they got tired of their BS and left :/ something along those lines, they wanted to stick with the original plan but SE did not sell the rights to Xenogears, so they had to make Xenosaga, which means they could no longer follow the plan they had in Perfect Work etc etc. So they still used the same Mythos and ideas but with totally different characters and story. Also what happened with Xenogears as far as the second disc was, that Square was behind in FFVII so they shifted resources and personel from Xenogeares to finish VII, and that is why the second disc of Xenogears is as it was ( Which i did not found that horrible, i was already tired of grinding by that time XD!)

As far as Xenosaga, EP 1 was solid, 2 was very Meh! and 3 was awesome <3 I really which SE would get the xeno team back and do a remake of Xenogears as it was intended and release EP 5 (Lacans Story)
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#203 Mar 29 2013 at 4:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
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Tons of people will not give a subscription game a chance.


A lot of these people would hardly pay anything through a cash shop, either.

Not saying F2P isn't profitable -- it seems to be much more profitable in the short term -- but SE is clearly planning FFXIV for the long haul. They need to make money for their shareholders, but shareholders aren't business partners. Shareholders are in this for the long haul too, and they'll be better off with profits over time. Meanwhile, SE doesn't need to repay investors (business partners) for development costs, because ARR was handled in house... so there's no external pressure to go F2P, which is a big problem with other games... hence the cash grab.

Given how quickly F2P games tend to fade away, it just seems that a P2P game with a significantly smaller population would be far more profitable after several years because EVERYONE is paying into it.


I wouldn't exactly call F2P a cash grab. That term implies that you're trying to generate a quick profit and sacrificing the longevity of the product to do so. Many F2P models do generate profit quickly yes, but that also sets them up in a better position to funnel some of that profit back into the game and I would argue that this would bolster the sustained profit through having more funds to develop and implement more content. Seems more like a matter of player preference to me.

Some players thought the 3 year storyline development of earlier FFXI expansions was fine, but there are probably as many players who would have preferred more content upfront with more frequent expansions. The ironic thing about it is that F2P expansion timelines tend to support the hardcore players habits more than the casual player in the sense that people who play for long periods or more frequently tend to burn through content faster. I say ironic because it's usually the players who support the hardcore aspect of gaming who tend to be strongly against F2P models.

Making a statement like 'F2P games fade quickly' should probably be qualified with the specific names of the games. There are quite a few F2P games that are still popular after having been released quite a while ago and do just as well if not better than their subscription based counterparts. I play many games that I probably wouldn't bother to play if they were subscription based instead of F2P or B2P. That doesn't condemn those games to being poorly designed, but the trend is the trend for a reason...



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#204 Mar 29 2013 at 9:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Pretty much every Zynga game has a shelf life of 2-3 years max. Farmville came out in 2009; they released Farmville II in 2012 after Farmville went from the #1 game on Facebook to #7 about this time last year.

People got bored with it. Then again, that's a social game and not an MMO, but I think it's relevant all the same. F2P games appeal to folks without the budget for a monthly game, and people with enough money that they don't mind throwing it at hobbies that produce satisfaction in the short term but no tangible goods. Both of those types are the kind who go "oooh shiny" and flit over to the next shiny thing in three months.

About the only F2P game that has more years on it than WoW is MapleStory, and that's a sprite based side scroller.
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#205 Mar 29 2013 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
About the only F2P game that has more years on it than WoW is MapleStory, and that's a sprite based side scroller.


And also more of a marketing tool targeted at children. >_>
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#206 Mar 29 2013 at 9:51 AM Rating: Decent
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You can't realistically expect to save the world without a 64oz. Double Gulp.

And nachos.

Edited, Mar 29th 2013 11:53am by lolgaxe
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#207 Mar 29 2013 at 9:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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When i talk for an F2P game i keep thinking of this http://en.flyff.gpotato.com/ flyff or "fly for fun" . One of my girlfriends used to play it quite a lot. Had spend some cash on it as well. They games graphic was meh but not terrible. I see now that they made drastic changes. Anyway i saw that this game is in the game industry for quite some time now and saw a number of 30mil people that played it. The number is huge but then again numbers don't really count in an F2P. But think of this, even if only 1 tenth of that number used the cash shop or w/e its called there, how much money have they made?

Anyway i don't like F2P as i said before but if that game is around for that long i wander how much money they made so far.

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#208 Mar 29 2013 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
Eh, games like LotRO ended up doing better with F2P. I admit I love the sub based model, but if game after game keeps coming out and flops...something has to change.
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#209 Mar 29 2013 at 10:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Last night in my E-Commerce class, we had a discussion on casinos, and how Harrah's has become the most profitable casino corporation in the last decade by ignoring the "whales" and focusing on their actual core customers, which turned out to be little old ladies who come for the social aspects and drop $20 on the penny slots reliably every week. The casino devised rewards programs to encourage them to come more often, such as Red Hat Club socials, loyalty rewards programs (come 10 visits and dinner's on us!), and made sure that their casinos were friendly environments to elderly citizens - handicapped ramps, disability specialists, etc.

I think that MMO game companies have a market disconnect (as I mentioned up thread or in another thread) and they still haven't figured out the sweet spot for subscription games (should be geared at 25-45 year olds) versus free to play games (should be geared at a much broader age range.)

I suppose I have no qualms with F2P games that are developed and released as such, but AAA title MMORPGs that were intended to be subscription based and had to go F2P don't fall into that category.

Edited, Mar 29th 2013 1:10pm by catwho
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I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#210 Mar 29 2013 at 10:31 AM Rating: Excellent
Yeah, it seems that a lot of my friends are ditching PC gaming completely in favor of more challenging board games like Descent. This core demographic of gamers wants to be challenged, and they are willing to spend long hours with a hobby that is intellectually stimulating. Developers need to be catering more to this audience. After all, we are the ones with the open wallets, not 15-year-old boys.
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#211 Mar 29 2013 at 10:48 AM Rating: Good
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F2P is synonymous with quick gratification.. For developers investors and players.. Everything about the games are fast paced feel good and on to the next.. F2p, similarly to what catwho said, are for players that jump from one game to another.. As opposed to players like Wint who commented that he is looking for a MMO home where he can invest years of playing in. Some F2P games are fun heck even most of them are.. For like 2 months.. ive never played a F2P game longer than 2 months.. As opposed to sub fee games that atrract long-time invested players.. not so quickly gratifying.. you have to work for what you get and when you finaly get it you appreciate it all the more! Getting level 75 was a BIG deal to me lol. Not some "took me a month to reach max." Sub-fee is where it is at for true MMO players.. Thats the way it is.. F2P is a trend because corps thought too highly of themselves and released junk.. F2P is also a trend because people are making as much money as they were.. F2P is just a biproduct of economic woes and companies like SE who thought they could just push whatever out and sub-fee it lol.. Dont get me wrong I love SE and I enjoyed FFXIV 1.x even with its downfalls.. That is why I am confident ARR is just what the MMO industry needs. Sub-fee roots with all the best gaming content and graphics.. I expect a pretty good launch but I believe it will be ever better with age as it continues to grow. (excuse typos at work and uses quota time no time to check my spelling! lol)
#212 Mar 29 2013 at 11:12 AM Rating: Default
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The ignorance of free to play is quite astounding.

There are many high quality games that are free to play, many that cost as much to create as XIV did and many that have lasted for 3-5 years. It's not a short term system, the games are still designed to be long standing money makers and are continually updated. The most current free to play game transition MMO has graphics that are very comparable if not better than FFXIV ARR and are just as complex and have just as much if not more content.

The only difference between a free to play game and a pay to play game is the payment system, they can be identical in every other way.

It's very difficult to argue with the fact that almost every single MMO that launched as pay to play is no longer pay to play, because they lost far too many players after the first 1-2 months to sustain the games endgame content and profits. FFXIV is actually in a far worse position than most games due to it being old and relaunched from a title that was very unpopular.

Quote:
About the only F2P game that has more years on it than WoW is MapleStory, and that's a sprite based side scroller.


FFXI was based on Everquest, which still runs and is free to play. 13 years later.

https://www.everquest.com/

https://www.everquest2.com/



Edited, Mar 29th 2013 1:18pm by preludes
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#213 Mar 29 2013 at 11:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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On that note, Lahurah's parents (who are in their 50s to 60s) actually played 1.0 with her for a while. They'd shown 0 interest in FFXI in the years she played it, but they thought 1.0 was pretty and played it for quite some time.

Despite all its flaws, 1.0 had an appeal to them. XIV 2.0 may or may not have that appeal, but if it does, they may have hit their "sweet spot for the little old ladies dropping $20 on penny slots every week" demographic. And if Yoshi P really is playing the long game, that's going to be a demographic he targets. (Especially in Japan. I remember the first Nintendo Wii commercials, back when it was still code named Revolution, where Nintendo wanted to make it a "family computer" again so they had the elderly couple playing a music conducting game with the Wiimotes.)
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#214 Mar 29 2013 at 11:20 AM Rating: Default
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catwho wrote:
On that note, Lahurah's parents (who are in their 50s to 60s) actually played 1.0 with her for a while. They'd shown 0 interest in FFXI in the years she played it, but they thought 1.0 was pretty and played it for quite some time.

Despite all its flaws, 1.0 had an appeal to them. XIV 2.0 may or may not have that appeal, but if it does, they may have hit their "sweet spot for the little old ladies dropping $20 on penny slots every week" demographic. And if Yoshi P really is playing the long game, that's going to be a demographic he targets. (Especially in Japan. I remember the first Nintendo Wii commercials, back when it was still code named Revolution, where Nintendo wanted to make it a "family computer" again so they had the elderly couple playing a music conducting game with the Wiimotes.)


Doesn't really mean anything, you can find little old ladies (or whatever other kind of player you want) on any MMO you care to mention. There is one on my Tera guild (she likes her male castanic characters >.>) and I knew one from my WoW times, they aren't just found on FFXIV lol

Edited, Mar 29th 2013 1:22pm by preludes
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#215 Mar 29 2013 at 11:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not saying that other MMOs don't have them. There are lots in FFXI too, for example.

I'm saying those MMOs weren't marketed to them.

Any MMORPG that wants to play a long game, with long term subscribers, needs to consider the demographic that's actually willing to pay money.
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#216 Mar 29 2013 at 1:01 PM Rating: Excellent
Catwho is teh smarts.
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#217 Mar 29 2013 at 1:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
I wouldn't exactly call F2P a cash grab. That term implies that you're trying to generate a quick profit and sacrificing the longevity of the product to do so. Many F2P models do generate profit quickly yes, but that also sets them up in a better position to funnel some of that profit back into the game and I would argue that this would bolster the sustained profit through having more funds to develop and implement more content. Seems more like a matter of player preference to me.


The problem is.. other than League of Legends no F2P game pumps out content anywhere near as fast as WoW. Pretty much every small F2P game is a cash grab with little content and a pay to win attitude. With as little as these companies comparatively spent on game development they probably make great profit. However you never see any content updates, or if you do it's after 3-5 years. I played a blatant WoW-clone called Fiesta off and on for 3+ years and they never released anything new other than cash shop garbage. Guild Wars 2 has been out for 6+ months and still hasn't released any new content either. This is a game where you could get to max level in a week or less with no end game content. F2P looks nice on paper but it just doesn't work that way.

catwho wrote:
I think that MMO game companies have a market disconnect (as I mentioned up thread or in another thread) and they still haven't figured out the sweet spot for subscription games (should be geared at 25-45 year olds) versus free to play games (should be geared at a much broader age range.)


I would love to see a "Mature" rated MMO for once and not just because of gore or boobies. Many teen games can get out an involved and mature story, but it's still there to be digested by a younger audience as well. It would be nice to see what a developer could come up with for serious gaming adults if they weren't so worried about milking the teenage market teet...And have it not devolve into some pervy *** game. ; ;

Edited, Mar 29th 2013 3:12pm by DamienSScott
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#218 Mar 29 2013 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Eh, what passes for a Teen rating in the US is really about as Mature as you can ask for, except of course for ***. Violence and language wise, we press the boundaries of good taste with a Teen rating at times.

SWTOR seemed to have a good mature story to me. I guess it didn't have some of the racier elements of games like Mass Effect/Dragon Age insomuch as Bioware games go, but I'm not bothered by the inability to fornicate with NPCs.
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#219 Mar 29 2013 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
But I'm not bothered by the inability to fornicate with NPCs.


Bu..But.. Fornicating with NPCs is basically all that I do!

/endfrychannel

Edited, Mar 29th 2013 3:40pm by DamienSScott
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#220 Mar 29 2013 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
I would LOVE to see a genuine, modern Dresden MMO.
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#221Killua125, Posted: Mar 29 2013 at 2:06 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Because he agrees with you? Smiley: tongue
#222 Mar 29 2013 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
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There are girls on the Internet, you know. Smiley: motz
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#223 Mar 29 2013 at 2:21 PM Rating: Good
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Only when their men let them out of the kitchen after their sammich making duties.

Sorry... I just couldn't resist...

<3 catwho :D
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#224 Mar 29 2013 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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DamienSScott wrote:
Only when their men let them out of the kitchen after their sammich making duties.

Sorry... I just couldn't resist...

<3 catwho :D


Husband is in DC til tomorrow night, which means I have a date with the PS3 tonight. THE TV IS MINE ALL MINE
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#225 Mar 29 2013 at 2:31 PM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
Husband is in DC til tomorrow night, which means I have a date with the PS3 tonight. THE TV IS MINE ALL MINE


heehee, makes me wanna play Castlevania: Harmony of Despair.. pretty much the only game I have for mine other than Rocksmith atm..
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#226 Mar 29 2013 at 2:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Because he agrees with you?


That is usually a sign of intelligence.
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#227 Mar 29 2013 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
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Because he agrees with you?


That is usually a sign of intelligence.


Or the sign of an alien controlled hive mind. I'd most likely go with that one...

In an unrelated note, would anyone like to join me on a trip to the Brain Slug planet?
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#228 Mar 29 2013 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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DamienSScott wrote:
The problem is.. other than League of Legends no F2P game pumps out content anywhere near as fast as WoW.


What exactly does League of Legends content look like?* Because if it's just regularly added maps, character skins, and a some new equipment, it's not really very difficult to produce that sort of stuff for games of the real-time strategy genre...

*Not being ****; making legitimate inquiry. :P
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#229 Mar 29 2013 at 6:21 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
DamienSScott wrote:
The problem is.. other than League of Legends no F2P game pumps out content anywhere near as fast as WoW.


What exactly does League of Legends content look like?* Because if it's just regularly added maps, character skins, and a some new equipment, it's not really very difficult to produce that sort of stuff for games of the real-time strategy genre...

*Not being ****; making legitimate inquiry. :P


To compare Legue of Legends content releases with WOW is just damm stupid, All legue of legend does is release one new champion every 2 weeks to grab some money and some skins, i would hardly call that "Content Release" Atleast not quality, and not equally to WOW'S Content releases, maps are added once every blue moon, and their tactic is to release a new OP champ, then after the first week is off, nerf him. That is all Legue of Legends is.
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#230 Mar 30 2013 at 1:33 AM Rating: Default
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I know people have mentioned that Wada's resignment is not going to affect FFXIX ARR's development, but Im very spectical that they wouldnt cut some jobs related to ARR.
Here is something that I found from http://e.nikkei.com/e/fr/tnks/Nni20130326D2603N02.htm

"Wada will be replaced by Representative Director Yosuke Matsuda. He has dealt with the company's finances since joining the former Square in 2001. A business rehabilitation plan is expected to be compiled before the fiscal 2012 earnings announcement."

Notice the "A business rehabilitation plan", I find it hard to believe that ARR is not included in that rehabilitation plan. Another question is what do we really know about Yosuke Matsuda, the guy who will replace Wada?
#231 Mar 30 2013 at 4:35 AM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:
I know people have mentioned that Wada's resignment is not going to affect FFXIX ARR's development, but Im very spectical that they wouldnt cut some jobs related to ARR.
Here is something that I found from http://e.nikkei.com/e/fr/tnks/Nni20130326D2603N02.htm

"Wada will be replaced by Representative Director Yosuke Matsuda. He has dealt with the company's finances since joining the former Square in 2001. A business rehabilitation plan is expected to be compiled before the fiscal 2012 earnings announcement."

Notice the "A business rehabilitation plan", I find it hard to believe that ARR is not included in that rehabilitation plan. Another question is what do we really know about Yosuke Matsuda, the guy who will replace Wada?


Of course it is included in that rehabilitation program. Nothing would rehabilitate SE faster than a successful launch of FFXIV: ARR and a steady stream of cash.

This article does not convince me they need to go F2P if that is what you are trying to suggest.
#232 Mar 30 2013 at 5:52 AM Rating: Default
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KaneKitty wrote:
DamienSScott wrote:
The problem is.. other than League of Legends no F2P game pumps out content anywhere near as fast as WoW.


What exactly does League of Legends content look like?* Because if it's just regularly added maps, character skins, and a some new equipment, it's not really very difficult to produce that sort of stuff for games of the real-time strategy genre...

*Not being ****; making legitimate inquiry. :P


League of Legends releases new character classes with new movesets, graphics, animations, sounds, etc. every couple of weeks.
These are free (buyable with in-game money).

The only thing cash users get is unique costume skins for their characters (which ALSO get released every couple of weeks, alongside the new characters).

People usually bring it up to counter the "F2P is the end of the world" argument.

Also, if you think it's "not easy" to add new characters... League of Legends is basically an e-sport at this point. People take it VERY seriously. Aside from making a character that has cool concepts (design, graphics, sound, skills, lore), they also need to balance this new character with over 110 other characters for competitive play...

Edited, Mar 30th 2013 7:53am by Killua125
#233 Mar 30 2013 at 8:31 AM Rating: Good
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But are they writing a deep and satisfying storyline with long cinematic cutscenes?

Because that's really all I care about as far as the RPG part of an MMORPG goes.
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I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#234 Mar 30 2013 at 9:20 AM Rating: Default
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SWTOR is for you then, it has the best story in any MMO.
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#235 Mar 30 2013 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
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I'm a Star Wars hipster. I don't like anything that came out after the Zahn trilogy.
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
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#236 Mar 30 2013 at 9:27 AM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
But are they writing a deep and satisfying storyline with long cinematic cutscenes?

Because that's really all I care about as far as the RPG part of an MMORPG goes.


I'm talking about payment models, not game content... I thought I made that clear.
#237 Mar 30 2013 at 9:29 AM Rating: Good
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The two are intertwined in good game design. The reason I'm willing to pay money (payment model) is for the game content. If the game content is not what I want, I won't even play the game, let alone pay money for it.
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I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#238 Mar 30 2013 at 9:33 AM Rating: Default
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I don't see how. I don't understand why a story-centric game couldn't use a free-to-play payment model like League of Legends.

I see nothing about that content which somehow requires a subscription model...
#239 Mar 30 2013 at 9:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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All the updates you talked about - new classes, new gear, new shinies - those things are fairly easy to make. You can throw a team of graphic designers at it and pay their salaries pretty easily based on how many shinies they designed sell. If the code is done properly, which from the way you've described it sounds like the underlying game engine is fairly robust, then creating a new class and balancing it is easier than you'd believe. It's just numbers and graphics and then running simulations and then tweaking those numbers and graphics until the stuff you're putting in is optimized.

A deep and compelling storyline with cinematic cutscenes requires all of the above (graphic designers, game engineers) as well as a team of writers and a CG artists, doubling the number of people involved. In IT projects, when you toss more bodies into any given project, the amount of time required to complete the project escalates on a logarithmic scale. Putting out new armor every two weeks is doable, putting out a new chunk of storyline every two weeks is considerably more difficult and more expensive.

Could a game designed from the ground up as F2P have a deep and compelling storyline? It's entirely possible. Have I seen it happen yet? No. (SWTOR was not designed as F2P.)
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FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#240 Mar 30 2013 at 9:51 AM Rating: Excellent
I am guessing that it costs more time and money to create all the resources needed for a truly engaging story. More cutscenes, new areas, new enemies, new gear or item rewards, etc. it is cheaper for devs to just make cosmetic items that don't require balancing and sell them from a cash shop.
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#241 Mar 30 2013 at 10:34 AM Rating: Default
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Look, I don't think either of us is really in a position to say how "easy" or hard it is for develop for League of Legends.

That game has to come up in the free-to-play discussion because it's one of the most popular and profitable games in the world right now, and it's running on a free-to-play model.

The free-to-play model is not inherently bad. I don't know why this needs to be said over and over again when there is multiple examples available.

The only question here is whether Square Enix is competent enough to make a good free-to-play model... and that is a question I can not answer.

Edit: The issue of whether they can make a deep, engaging story with beautiful cutscenes comes down to the money they're making.

The whole point of free-to-play would be to make more money, not less. If they're successful in doing that, it would only result in more content development for the game.

Edited, Mar 30th 2013 12:39pm by Killua125
#242 Mar 30 2013 at 10:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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People disagree with you in the F2P model because even if as you said there are multiple examples that its good we have even more examples that it isn't.

The question here isn't if SE is gonna make a competent F2P but " IF SE is gonna go in F2P model at later date" If that is confirmed then we can question if they will make a competent model. With the current info we got nothing shows that it will go F2P after a month in its launch. So for the sake of the company and the players i hope it takes a couple of years or more for SE to think in going F2P.
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#243 Mar 30 2013 at 10:43 AM Rating: Default
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... as I said.

The point I'm trying to prove is that free-to-play is not inherently bad. In other words, it can be done well.

I even said in my post, the only question is whether Square Enix is competent enough to do it... I'm aware that there are many horrible "free-to-play" models (heavy emphasis on the quotations) as well as good ones.

Edited, Mar 30th 2013 12:45pm by Killua125
#244 Mar 30 2013 at 10:53 AM Rating: Decent
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I also have another question.

... nobody else thinks the whole 'vanity pet' thing is being made with microtransactions in mind?

I could be wrong, but I don't see how they could offer "floating, miniature airships, floating gloves" etc. without breaking the fourth wall and offering it through some kind of microtransaction system.

I would assume there will be vanity pets available in game but does it not seem like a system which was made with microtransactions in mind?
#245 Mar 30 2013 at 10:53 AM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
All the updates you talked about - new classes, new gear, new shinies - those things are fairly easy to make. You can throw a team of graphic designers at it and pay their salaries pretty easily based on how many shinies they designed sell. If the code is done properly, which from the way you've described it sounds like the underlying game engine is fairly robust, then creating a new class and balancing it is easier than you'd believe. It's just numbers and graphics and then running simulations and then tweaking those numbers and graphics until the stuff you're putting in is optimized.

A deep and compelling storyline with cinematic cutscenes requires all of the above (graphic designers, game engineers) as well as a team of writers and a CG artists, doubling the number of people involved. In IT projects, when you toss more bodies into any given project, the amount of time required to complete the project escalates on a logarithmic scale. Putting out new armor every two weeks is doable, putting out a new chunk of storyline every two weeks is considerably more difficult and more expensive.

Could a game designed from the ground up as F2P have a deep and compelling storyline? It's entirely possible. Have I seen it happen yet? No. (SWTOR was not designed as F2P.)


This is a miscomception that i have heard around here a few times, balancing is easy is just numbers etc etc, yet two of the most successful companys have had always problems as far as balancing classes, one is blizzard with it's PVP, and the other one is Legue of Legends, entierly different companys in different genres, with the same problem, i would think if it was as easy as tweaking a number here and there, they would have ridden themselfs of such problems a long time ago, yet every new update from both companys brings fixes and buffs or nerfs to their content in order to balance classes. They are professional programers with what i would think is an infinite more experience than some random posters in some board, and they have not been able to fix this "Easy" balancing problem.... Hmm! Maybe it is not as easy as adding one number here and subtracting another there ?

As far as a deep and compelling storyline, that is entierly subjective, some people claim FFVII has the deepest most compelling storyline, to me is utter garbage, as far as storyline is concerned i can name from the top of my head 5 games with better storylines: Xenogears, Suikoden II, Final Fantasy Tactics, Final Fantasy VI, Chrono Cross/Trigger, Arc the lad Series. Also take into account that the golden age of RPG'S was the PSX era, where we had very few CG and cutscenes out of anime/movies, if a game had some they where few and spread around the game, unlike today where 50% of the games are CG and the other 50 is actually playing the game (Xenosaga series is blatant offender of this) this notion that game in order to deliver a compelling storyline needs CG and "AWESOME GRAPHIPCS" is silly and stupid, FFXIV is the MMO with the most pretty graphics, its storyline compared to it's pretty graphics is utter garbage as of today, swotors cartoony engine delivers more storyline per mission that FFXIV would ever hope to acomplish today (Hoping it would change in ARR) ever since the PS2 era, RPGS have seen a drastic drop in quality, because companys figure out, that if you put some shiny graphics and some CG people will buy a title ( XIII is proof of this )

Really name me one PS2 Game or PS3 or Xbox/360 RPG that was better than a top 5-10 RPG from the PSX Era :) and i will name you 3 games from the psp or nds that are better than it, because really good RPGS are no longer in consoles, they are in handhelds, all you get in consoles are games worth a trailer and once you pop the cd on the system and play for 3 hours, you are bored to death with them, or already know whats gonna happen.
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#246 Mar 30 2013 at 11:03 AM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
I also have another question.

... nobody else thinks the whole 'vanity pet' thing is being made with microtransactions in mind?

I could be wrong, but I don't see how they could offer "floating, miniature airships, floating gloves" etc. without breaking the fourth wall and offering it through some kind of microtransaction system.

I would assume there will be vanity pets available in game but does it not seem like a system which was made with microtransactions in mind?


Well it might end up the same way blizzard does it. To be honest if they have microtransaction system to just buy a pet that is absolutely useless its fine by me. Someone wants to pay an extra 15 dollars/euros besides their monthly subscription to get something that just looks "nice"? By all means go for it. If it doesn't give him an advantage to the others i don't care. Also i don't want the game to be flood with those microtransactions. I don't mind a couple of things to go out but they should keep it controlled as Blizzard did (at least until i was still playing, don't know for now).
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#247 Mar 30 2013 at 11:11 AM Rating: Default
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Teravibe wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
I also have another question.

... nobody else thinks the whole 'vanity pet' thing is being made with microtransactions in mind?

I could be wrong, but I don't see how they could offer "floating, miniature airships, floating gloves" etc. without breaking the fourth wall and offering it through some kind of microtransaction system.

I would assume there will be vanity pets available in game but does it not seem like a system which was made with microtransactions in mind?


Well it might end up the same way blizzard does it. To be honest if they have microtransaction system to just buy a pet that is absolutely useless its fine by me. Someone wants to pay an extra 15 dollars/euros besides their monthly subscription to get something that just looks "nice"? By all means go for it. If it doesn't give him an advantage to the others i don't care. Also i don't want the game to be flood with those microtransactions. I don't mind a couple of things to go out but they should keep it controlled as Blizzard did (at least until i was still playing, don't know for now).


So a subscription WITH microtransaction model is fine, but a free-to-play with microtransaction model will ruin the game?

Nice logic...

Edited, Mar 30th 2013 1:11pm by Killua125
#248 Mar 30 2013 at 11:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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It is logical because if its F2P with microtransactions it means all of the games profit will come from microtransactions which means that they will FLOOD the game with them. And as i stated i do not want the game to be flooded with them.

So i believe my logic is quite valid.

Edited, Mar 30th 2013 1:14pm by Teravibe
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#249 Mar 30 2013 at 11:19 AM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
There are girls on the Internet, you know. Smiley: motz


Women. There are women on the internet. (Not to be mistaken with camwhores and pornstars)

All 'girls' on the internet are secretly FBI agents looking for @#%^philes and it should never be any other way.



Edited, Mar 30th 2013 1:20pm by Hyrist
#250 Mar 30 2013 at 11:25 AM Rating: Default
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Teravibe wrote:
People disagree with you in the F2P model because even if as you said there are multiple examples that its good we have even more examples that it isn't.

The question here isn't if SE is gonna make a competent F2P but " IF SE is gonna go in F2P model at later date" If that is confirmed then we can question if they will make a competent model. With the current info we got nothing shows that it will go F2P after a month in its launch. So for the sake of the company and the players i hope it takes a couple of years or more for SE to think in going F2P.


Most people disagree with him, because they have this notion that P2P equals Great community while F2P equals bottom of the barrel community, which we all know is an utter garbage of an argument, FFXI had a tight knit community, but they where not above any other community as far as douch bags, cry babys, teens, backstabers, ninja looters, drama, LS drama and Botting, neither was the community in WOW, or in any MMORPG. Just because there is a subscription, does not garantee that there will not be a perfect community, and also from personal experience 90% of the time, those people that complain and whine about bad communities, usually are carebear players that cannot take criticism and take the internet way to seriously, or are MMO police, you know like the official forum dwellers, that are there as some sort of SE police branch, cracking down on complainers and reporting everything they do not agree with :/ A community is what you make out of It.

Also please come to your senses people, XIV: Arr will have microtransactions :) To think otherwise is to kid one self, i have been more right about XIV than 90% of you have, and the momment they sold us that gabbou mount, i knew we where gonna have microtransactions in the long run.
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#251 Mar 30 2013 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Teravibe wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
I also have another question.

... nobody else thinks the whole 'vanity pet' thing is being made with microtransactions in mind?

I could be wrong, but I don't see how they could offer "floating, miniature airships, floating gloves" etc. without breaking the fourth wall and offering it through some kind of microtransaction system.

I would assume there will be vanity pets available in game but does it not seem like a system which was made with microtransactions in mind?


Well it might end up the same way blizzard does it. To be honest if they have microtransaction system to just buy a pet that is absolutely useless its fine by me. Someone wants to pay an extra 15 dollars/euros besides their monthly subscription to get something that just looks "nice"? By all means go for it. If it doesn't give him an advantage to the others i don't care. Also i don't want the game to be flood with those microtransactions. I don't mind a couple of things to go out but they should keep it controlled as Blizzard did (at least until i was still playing, don't know for now).


This is what i refeer to as far as there will be microtransactions in ARR! Exactly how they have been handled by Blizzard, and i have no problem with it, as long as is a pet or a mount that gives no buff or any sort of advantage to a player, i have no problem, it worked for blizzard i am sure it will work for SE(As long as their payment method is not some spawn from **** like they always do.)

And that model is far different from a strictly F2P Model.
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