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Thought about SWTOR vs ARRFollow

#52 Apr 16 2013 at 11:10 AM Rating: Default
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Catwho wrote:
The thing is, even zones within the same region should have subtle variations in color and landscape. Although the regional climate will be the same, the micro climates due to elevation and proximity to revivers and streams will all be different.

One of the things that was depressing about The Black Shroud in 1.0 was that it was the same uniform green throughout every zone, then suddenly switched to the jagged mountains of Mor Dorhna without warning. With the individual zoning in 2.0, they can probably have a much more gradual change over to the mountainous area.


Yeah, but that's an issue with 1.0 just being overall badly made - not the concept of a seamless, open world.

It's not like a loading screen is really going to change anything. Will it be more believable to jump instantly from green plains to mountains instantly, if there's a loading screen in between?

It's either natural or it isn't.

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 1:12pm by Killua125
#53 Apr 16 2013 at 11:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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The golden rule isn't really "not WoW", I just don't have zero interest in clone games. WoW is a pretty good game and I don't think it's so wrong to take inspiration from it, but I don't want to play a game I've already played in a new skin.


I'm confused. Your biggest complaint with SWTOR and (sight-unseen) with ARR is that it's too much like WoW, but now you're saying that it's ok to use WoW's elements.

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It wouldn't be a themepark World of Warcraft game where you're on rails all the time moving from quest set to quest set where you have to play almost exactly like the developer intended.


Ok first off, every theme park-style MMO isn't World of Warcraft. Those two terms are not equivalent. Second, are you aware this is Final Fantasy? One of the most on-rails RPG series in the history of gaming?

Quote:
I would probably put a big focus on exploration and rewarding player curiosity, with lots of easter eggs for the players to find (little hidden camps, secret quests, secret monsters, etc.) and trophies for finding that stuff. There would be easy to use grouping tools.


Like Rift? And SWTOR? Both of those games had exploration elements and rewarded you for doing them. Rift had its artifact system as well as achievements for doing goofy things like jumping off waterfalls and not dying. SWTOR had its datacrons which usually involved elaborate jumping puzzles and careful maneuvering across environments. Guild Wars 2 had vistas which usually required climbing up a wall or completing a jumping puzzle. And WoW has the easiest-to-use grouping tool I've ever seen.

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I would have a seamless open world, no zones (which break immersion).


Not really possible with the PS3, but on the subject of zone boundaries breaking immersion... FFXI had them, I never felt like my immersion was broken in that game. And that was with some pretty stark zone contrasts. This seems like a red herring to me.

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I think it would be cool if you got to make some choices throughout the story which made you feel like you had some impact, even if it didn't necessarily change the outcome (I'm thinking of The Walking Dead).


That's SWTOR.

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Also, I would probably try to make the nations much more distinct from each other than they are currently. I mean, if one nation was supposed to be a bunch of savage pirates, one more spiritual (I think that's what Gridania is supposed to be?), one more rich, there would need to be a lot of elements in the environment to drive those ideas home.


That's every faction-based game ever made.

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For combat, I would go with building up TP to unleash devastating attacks.


Warriors in WoW and every combo-point based class ever.

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I don't think FFXI's combat was bad on a technical level, it just needed to be more fast paced and have cooler graphics.


I'm sorry, did ARR not have ENOUGH particle effects for you?

While it's certainly possible to do fast-pased combat with resource building and burning, it's hardly original, and it's not everyone's cup of tea either.

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it just seemed like an unnecessary jab at the end.


It was. But you were so dead set against ARR having anything to do with WoW, that I thought I'd mention it to remind you of that rule in your response. You did not succeed.

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The information is all public at this point.


Smiley: dubious

Let me just say that I don't think you're necessarily wrong in that people are probably not going to take a strict WoW-clone very seriously. But I'd also like to say that you have no basis for stating that that's what ARR is. So maybe don't rush to judgement quite so quickly and declare that the sky is falling.

Furthermore, just because an MMO uses modern game design concepts, does not make it a clone of every game that came before it that pioneered those concepts. If they can be used in interesting ways and make a fun game, I'm interested, and I'm probably not the only one. I'd also like to remind you what happened the last time SE set out to make changes for the sake of making changes. It did not go well.
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#54Killua125, Posted: Apr 16 2013 at 11:31 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It's just realistic. These countries are supposed to have different cultures but they hardly have anything to set themselves apart from each other. There's nothing "magical" about Gridania. It's just a place with a lot of trees.
#55 Apr 16 2013 at 11:33 AM Rating: Decent
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GDLYL wrote:
preludes wrote:
SWTOR failed for the exact same reason FFXIV ARR will fail, they spent too much money on a game that will never attract millions of players.

SWTOR would of been quite successful if it would of had a normal budget of around 50m, it just can't make the money back because it spent way too much on development. FFXIV ARR spent about the same if not more, so yeah it's not going to go well.


Hindsight is supposed to be 20/20, because after you've gathered all the facts, you can see the big picture. This is what you come up with? I really wish you would have posted something more intelligent. Strange as it may be, I do love hearing a really good differing opinion. I know you post those things with the intent of getting some White Knight to run to the game's defense. It detracts from it. That aside, I have some thoughts.

Hindsight being a wonderful thing, I've learned from FFXI, that an MMO doesn't need millions of subscribers to be profitable. What do you think they spent the money on exactly? You seem to have a wonderful imagination, you should make some more assumptions. I don't care for Star Wars, but I did hear they had quality voice acting/story. Maybe some of the money went there. I've also heard that they lacked things to do at the end game stage. That leaves me wondering what else could have taken up all those development resources. You seem to know though.

There has never been a company that took a failed MMO and rebuilt it from the ground up. Even you can see that as a huge financial risk. We all love to talk ourselves up and profess/imply that we know what's best, or what would, and wouldn't work. Running with that train of thought, would you take that risk? If yes, how would you feel about failing? Have you ever failed at something? If yes, when you try again, do you try twice as hard? Three times? How hard? The most beautiful thing about ARR, is its "people" inspired development. There is no "stick up the ***" person doing whatever he wants. I'm more worried about Final Fantasy XV, than I am ARR. At least Yoshi knows what not to do, and shows interest in what the majority wants.

If ARR fails, it wont be for the reason you stated. It seems like everyone is aware how badly ARR's failure is going affect SE, but never factor how that impacts the way they handle it. For some reason, people like you think that the company's just going to sit on their ***, and just go down without a fight. You over simplify everything. I can see it now, "ARR fails because fans found out that it spent too much money in development." Genius right?

If this were a new dev team trying to making it, I'd be less optimistic. Luckily, some people can afford mistakes, while other's can't. It's also fortunate enough to carry the "Final Fantasy" name, mostly likely the only reason they might pull this off. The only thing ARR needs to be successful, is to be a fun game that people actually want to play. No one is going to ignore it just because it had a bad launch, while every review site is saying how great it is. Obviously, if the reviews are bad, they wont come back. That pretty much makes their path forward very clear. If they put more than 50 million or more into the right areas of development, that just might be what they need to attract people. Seeing as we have no idea what they're developing in great detail, I'm going to assume your negativity is a personal issue, not a logical one.

Try and recall how the name "Final Fantasy" came to be. If failure means the end of the company (Which I hope it does Smiley: smile), that might give them good incentive to stop all the bad ideas they've been spending money on for the past decade. Perhaps snap them out of this complacency "we" enabled. I do hope they pull out all the stops, so they don't fail again. That's what I would do. They even asked fans for input, which never would have happened without the failure. (I hope interacting with fans continues) If it fails again, maybe it's time to move on.

P.S.

I miss early 1.0 days when the negativity had real merit. It was an anti SE field day! White Knights were slaughtered daily!


FFXI cost 16-24 million to create and launched at a time when expectations for updates were low, customer service expectations were low and when they could grab a large number of MMO virgins, same thing wow did. It's a lot easier to hold onto those kind of MMO players as opposed to MMO players today that have higher standards and a lot of MMO experience.

FFXI cost 16-24 million to create and took a few years to make that back.
SWTOR cost 250 million + and last I read still hasn't made that money back yet.
FFXIV cost probably around 150 million at the very least, given a double development cycle and a huge amount of well paid people working on it.

Here comes the intelligent part. If a game cost 16 million you can easily have less players and make a lot of money from it, but the more the development costs the more players you need which explains why you need millions of players to recoupe 150-200 million. Main reason for this shockingly because 150million is more than 16 million.

When all these games have the same box and sub price it's a heck of a lot easier to make back 16 million (which took a few years according to a SE article) as opposed to hundreds of millions. The huge cost of FFXIV and the fact that it will never attract millions of players means they will have to add a cash shop to even recover the development costs.



Edited, Apr 16th 2013 1:39pm by preludes
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#56 Apr 16 2013 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
UltKnightGrover wrote:
You're assuming ARR is WoW in a new skin, again. Too early to judge.


The information is all public at this point.


Please link to all this crazy amount of information proving that ARR is WoW in a new skin. Please also link to the 80% of content that has yet to even be released, and how all of that content is also a replica of WoW. When you can do that, then you can consider the information "public at this point". Until then, you are making some pretty incredible assumptions. I actually have to wonder if this is all just a big troll attempt, and you're sitting there laughing at all of us for taking the bait...

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 1:33pm by BartelX
#57 Apr 16 2013 at 11:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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I often wonder why you guys reply to these guys, they're obviously baiting you Smiley: smile
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#58 Apr 16 2013 at 11:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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#59 Apr 16 2013 at 11:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
We're bored at work.


Fair enough Smiley: laugh
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#60 Apr 16 2013 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
I often wonder why you guys reply to these guys, they're obviously baiting you Smiley: smile


Catwho wrote:
We're bored at work.


Actually...yeah...

What else am I supposed to do while I'm waiting for half a dozen computers to finish doing whatever it is they're doing?
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#61Killua125, Posted: Apr 16 2013 at 11:45 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm not baiting anyone. I can only discuss the huge amount of information provided by Yoshi-P.
#62 Apr 16 2013 at 11:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wint wrote:
I often wonder why you guys reply to these guys, they're obviously baiting you Smiley: smile
How else am I gonna catch up to Joph?

And don't act innocent, you're the one letting the sock to continue posting. Smiley: tongue

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 1:47pm by lolgaxe
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#63 Apr 16 2013 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
I'm not baiting anyone. I can only discuss the huge amount of information provided by Yoshi-P.

Regardless of how much content is released, it's fair to say that the basic architecture of the game isn't going to change, right?

Combat doesn't change when you get to a new area, and neither will the themepark game design of shuffling between quest marker to quest marker.

Do you really find it that hard to believe that I wouldn't like that, when over a dozen new MMORPGs using that design come out and flop each year?


Um, if only 20% of the content has been released, how can you make any kind of assumption as to what the other 80% will be with any kind of certainty? The answer is, you cannot. Until you play it, you have no idea other than the 1-2 paragraph blurbs that have been released about it.

And actually, the basic architecture of combat could change pretty significantly between now and launch, and it has been stated that it WILL change considerably. Not to mention, combat and questing are not the only aspects of the game. They are parts of the game, and if they share similarities to WoW, so be it. They also share similarities to a bunch of other MMO's NOT named WoW. I'm still waiting to be overwhelmed by all this information confirming that ARR is a WoW clone. Care to provide some links?
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#64 Apr 16 2013 at 11:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Wint wrote:
I often wonder why you guys reply to these guys, they're obviously baiting you Smiley: smile
How else am I gonna catch up to Joph?

And don't act innocent, you're the one letting the sock to continue posting. Smiley: tongue

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 1:47pm by lolgaxe


If he's a sock, he's being extremely careful with his IP addresses.
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#65 Apr 16 2013 at 11:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:

Wint wrote:
I often wonder why you guys reply to these guys, they're obviously baiting you Smiley: smile


I'm not baiting anyone. I can only discuss the huge amount of information provided by Yoshi-P.

Regardless of how much content is released, it's fair to say that the basic architecture of the game isn't going to change, right?

Combat doesn't change when you get to a new area, and neither will the themepark game design of shuffling between quest marker to quest marker.

Do you really find it that hard to believe that I wouldn't like that, when over a dozen new MMORPGs using that design come out and flop each year?


Edited, Apr 16th 2013 1:46pm by Killua125


Since you don't have access to the beta you don't know that. And if you do have access and are making these comments, I guess you're divulging NDA'd info and I'm going to have to ban you. Which is it?
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#66 Apr 16 2013 at 11:58 AM Rating: Default
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BartelX wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
I'm not baiting anyone. I can only discuss the huge amount of information provided by Yoshi-P.

Regardless of how much content is released, it's fair to say that the basic architecture of the game isn't going to change, right?

Combat doesn't change when you get to a new area, and neither will the themepark game design of shuffling between quest marker to quest marker.

Do you really find it that hard to believe that I wouldn't like that, when over a dozen new MMORPGs using that design come out and flop each year?


Um, if only 20% of the content has been released, how can you make any kind of assumption as to what the other 80% will be with any kind of certainty? The answer is, you cannot. Until you play it, you have no idea other than the 1-2 paragraph blurbs that have been released about it.

And actually, the basic architecture of combat could change pretty significantly between now and launch, and it has been stated that it WILL change considerably. Not to mention, combat and questing are not the only aspects of the game. They are parts of the game, and if they share similarities to WoW, so be it. They also share similarities to a bunch of other MMO's NOT named WoW. I'm still waiting to be overwhelmed by all this information confirming that ARR is a WoW clone. Care to provide some links?


I'm not talking about updates. I used the combat example like this: if you go from one area to the next, a game's combat isn't going to change entirely. The game isn't going to change from a themepark to a sandbox MMO by going to an unreleased area.

It's just a quest marker tedious fetch quest-fest. Deliver an item to some random lady. Go kill 10 critters. Go back to the lady. Give her the critter furs. Go back to the guy who sent you to her. Over and over. That's how these themepark quest games work. This is Yoshi-P's "vision".

If you want information on how the game works, go over the Q&As, producer letters, screenshots, Live Letters, interviews, etc...

Wint wrote:
Since you don't have access to the beta you don't know that. And if you do have access and are making these comments, I guess you're divulging NDA'd info and I'm going to have to ban you. Which is it?


To clarify, I don't know if the game's whole architecture is going to change if you move to a new area. I base that assumption on every other game I've ever played. You can ban me if you need to, but I would rather you just delete any posts where I've broken the NDA, because I don't think I did. Everything I'm talking about has been outlined by Yoshi-P in detail over his various letters, interviews, videos and translated Q&A's.

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 2:05pm by Killua125
#67 Apr 16 2013 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
I'm not baiting anyone. I can only discuss the huge amount of information provided by Yoshi-P.

Regardless of how much content is released, it's fair to say that the basic architecture of the game isn't going to change, right?

Combat doesn't change when you get to a new area, and neither will the themepark game design of shuffling between quest marker to quest marker.

Do you really find it that hard to believe that I wouldn't like that, when over a dozen new MMORPGs using that design come out and flop each year?


Um, if only 20% of the content has been released, how can you make any kind of assumption as to what the other 80% will be with any kind of certainty? The answer is, you cannot. Until you play it, you have no idea other than the 1-2 paragraph blurbs that have been released about it.

And actually, the basic architecture of combat could change pretty significantly between now and launch, and it has been stated that it WILL change considerably. Not to mention, combat and questing are not the only aspects of the game. They are parts of the game, and if they share similarities to WoW, so be it. They also share similarities to a bunch of other MMO's NOT named WoW. I'm still waiting to be overwhelmed by all this information confirming that ARR is a WoW clone. Care to provide some links?


Have you played many betas?

Imagine you are in charge of this game and there are deadlines (no matter what they say there are always deadlines) and you implement a new battle system now, imagine its worse or causes huge bugs or other massive delays for the programmers in other areas. They never change core features of an MMO from beta to release, they will probably tweak it but they won't make huge changes now. Only way huge changes would happen is if they stopped betas and went back to full development. Betas are all about tweaking and cutting off rough edges, they aren't going to do anything major now.
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#68 Apr 16 2013 at 12:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
I'm not baiting anyone. I can only discuss the huge amount of information provided by Yoshi-P.

Regardless of how much content is released, it's fair to say that the basic architecture of the game isn't going to change, right?

Combat doesn't change when you get to a new area, and neither will the themepark game design of shuffling between quest marker to quest marker.

Do you really find it that hard to believe that I wouldn't like that, when over a dozen new MMORPGs using that design come out and flop each year?


Um, if only 20% of the content has been released, how can you make any kind of assumption as to what the other 80% will be with any kind of certainty? The answer is, you cannot. Until you play it, you have no idea other than the 1-2 paragraph blurbs that have been released about it.

And actually, the basic architecture of combat could change pretty significantly between now and launch, and it has been stated that it WILL change considerably. Not to mention, combat and questing are not the only aspects of the game. They are parts of the game, and if they share similarities to WoW, so be it. They also share similarities to a bunch of other MMO's NOT named WoW. I'm still waiting to be overwhelmed by all this information confirming that ARR is a WoW clone. Care to provide some links?


I'm not talking about updates. I used the combat example like this: if you go from one area to the next, a game's combat isn't going to change entirely. The game isn't going to change from a themepark to a sandbox MMO by going to an unreleased area.

It's just a quest marker tedious fetch quest-fest. Deliver an item to some random lady. Go kill 10 critters. Go back to the lady. Give her the critter furs. Go back to the guy who sent you to her. Over and over. That's how these themepark quest games work. This is Yoshi-P's "vision".

If you want information on how the game works, go over the Q&As, producer letters, screenshots, Live Letters, interviews, etc...

Wint wrote:
Since you don't have access to the beta you don't know that. And if you do have access and are making these comments, I guess you're divulging NDA'd info and I'm going to have to ban you. Which is it?


To clarify, I don't know if the game's whole architecture is going to change if you move to a new area. I base that assumption on every other game I've ever played. You can ban me if you need to, but I would rather you just delete any posts where I've broken the NDA, because I don't think I did. Everything I'm talking about has been outlined by Yoshi-P in detail over his various letters, interviews, videos and translated Q&A's.

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 2:05pm by Killua125


I never said you did break the NDA, you can either admit that you don't know what the game looks like right now (Yoshi hasn't released a ton of info regarding where things are with phase 2 and every time someone asks you for a link you don't deliver), or you are in the beta and are disclosing information that isn't released yet.
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#69 Apr 16 2013 at 12:25 PM Rating: Default
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I don't know what the game looks like right now, nor do I really care - people can volunteer and squash bugs. I think I'll have a more enjoyable time with the full product. I'm sure the game is in a very incomplete state during testing, but from everything we've been told and shown, "complete" will be an on rails quest marker to quest marker system.

I made this thread because people are tired of that system. Star Wars couldn't even make people want it. People argue that it wasn't the World of Warcraft stuff that made SWTOR bad. Then what about all the other hundreds of themepark quest MMORPGs which have flopped?

I just think people are sick of it. That's all I'm saying. You don't need to be testing to know about how questing will work in this game.

It's all been outlined. I'm not linking that information because it would take me forever to sort through all the tons of letters and videos and interviews by Yoshi-P.

The topic shifted to zones... again, public information. The constant zones and black loading screens are all over their multiple official YouTube page videos.

Talking about the quest system Yoshi-P is using in his game is much different than talking about testing stuff like lag or glitches. It's just public information stuff about ARR.

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 2:28pm by Killua125
#70 Apr 16 2013 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
I often wonder why you guys reply to these guys, they're obviously baiting you Smiley: smile


I won't get to 10k posts by NOT replying, will I? WILL I???
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#71 Apr 16 2013 at 12:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Killua125 wrote:

I made this thread because people are tired of that system. Star Wars couldn't even make people want it. People argue that it wasn't the World of Warcraft stuff that made SWTOR bad. Then what about all the other hundreds of themepark quest MMORPGs which have flopped?


People? Which people? I never played any other WoW clones for long, so I'm excited for it. I loved SWTOR (until there was nothing left to do but re-roll). It didn't fail because of it's wow-ness, it failed for MANY, MANY other reasons.

So you're tired of it. Thank god you don't have to play it. There's 10+ other mmos coming out, plus the ones already in existence. That really shoudl be the end of the discussion, no? "I don't like wow, will I like this?" No. No you won't. Goodnight.

ADD:

And I do love zones. Loading screens for zones tell you where you are, tell other people where you are, and break up the scenes and areas. They are less overwhelming in the scope of an MMO, and allow for every specific themes in a smaller space. I love Skyrim, but can you honestly tell me you love walking to every quest marker, through the mountains, and over that river to the forest? No, you're gonna fast travel like everyone else, because you want it now, not later. BOOM. Immersion BROKEN!

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 2:35pm by Louiscool
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#72Killua125, Posted: Apr 16 2013 at 12:33 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) That should tell you something. Smiley: nod
#73 Apr 16 2013 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
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I think I see the problem. And this happens on the Internet all the time.

Killua is speaking on behalf of a silent majority of people who agree with him.

Here's the problem with this, and it's always the problem with this. You can't speak you authority on behalf of other people when you haven't been empowered by those people to do that. You aren't a spokesman for the gamer population of Earth. You never will be. So don't pretend you represent the position of "the people."

You may speak with authority on your own opinions. You can say things like "I don't want another theme park MMO" and be perfectly fine, because you're only talking about yourself and your own opinions and your own desires. Assuming you don't suffer from some kind of multiple personality disorder, we can reasonably assume that you know yourself pretty well. But when you invoke "people" in your argument, you fall right off that wagon. Now you're trying to speak as the representative of a huge group that probably doesn't agree with each other, let alone you.

Don't try to speak for people unless you've been asked to do that. You will always be wrong.
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#74 Apr 16 2013 at 12:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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He's being contrarian. "If I say the opposite, people will argue with me!"
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#75 Apr 16 2013 at 12:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Killua125 wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
People? Which people? I never played any other WoW clones for long, so I'm excited for it.


That should tell you something. Smiley: nod


Yes, it tell me that Rift was bland and uninteresting. It tells me that SWTOR got repetitive even though I wanted to experience all the storylines, I couldn't bear to do that same series of normal filler quests again, and it tells me that neither had a good endgame, and that the random loot was a bit bland versus FFXI (and 14)s unique loot. Lastly, it also tells me I prefer the FF universe, because I always went back to XI, but wish it had the mechanics and casualness of WoW.
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#76Killua125, Posted: Apr 16 2013 at 12:45 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm not trying to be a representative of the people - I'm talking about sales numbers. We're talking about hundreds of World of Warcraft clone flops.
#77 Apr 16 2013 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:


Honest question, would you prefer quest themeparks over a game with more freedom? If you don't at least give your opinion, it's kinda pointless. I've certainly given mine.


Maybe I missed this whole themepark analogy but are you trying to suggest that quest chaining limits your freedom in an mmo, and that you would much prefer endless grinding?

Wow, that's novel, I would just love to play this Dynasty Warriors MMO you're dreaming of. Just hit things until your max level, then hit things somewhere else for loot. Sounds amazing.
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#78 Apr 16 2013 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
I'm not talking about updates. I used the combat example like this: if you go from one area to the next, a game's combat isn't going to change entirely. The game isn't going to change from a themepark to a sandbox MMO by going to an unreleased area.

It's just a quest marker tedious fetch quest-fest. Deliver an item to some random lady. Go kill 10 critters. Go back to the lady. Give her the critter furs. Go back to the guy who sent you to her. Over and over. That's how these themepark quest games work. This is Yoshi-P's "vision".

If you want information on how the game works, go over the Q&As, producer letters, screenshots, Live Letters, interviews, etc...


I've read all the same information as you, and I certainly didn't see anything saying that this game would be a WoW clone. I read Yoshi say that WoW is a very successful game, and he'd like to incorporate parts of what make WoW successful because they were done properly. Not because it's WoW. So unless you are going to show me something I haven't seen, where Yoshi says something like "we're modelling FFXIV to be a copy of WoW with Final Fantasy flavorings", you are just making assumptions.

Since you haven't played a single quest in ARR, you have no idea what it will be like. Just because a few things are emulating WoW, doesn't mean everything is. That's my point.

preludes wrote:
Have you played many betas?

Imagine you are in charge of this game and there are deadlines (no matter what they say there are always deadlines) and you implement a new battle system now, imagine its worse or causes huge bugs or other massive delays for the programmers in other areas. They never change core features of an MMO from beta to release, they will probably tweak it but they won't make huge changes now. Only way huge changes would happen is if they stopped betas and went back to full development. Betas are all about tweaking and cutting off rough edges, they aren't going to do anything major now.


I understand how betas work, I have participated in several myself, including the original FFXIV beta and the swtor beta most recently. I never said they were implementing a new battle system, I said there are still plenty of changes that can be made to combat. I believe it was actually talked about in Live Letter 6, that phase 3 of the beta would see considerable updates to the combat system. I know I read it somewhere. When you get to Open Beta, or the last phase of closed beta I agree it's only for tweaking. Before that, plenty can still be modified without starting from the ground up.
#79 Apr 16 2013 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
I don't think I'm speaking for a silent majority, these people aren't silent, they're just not on ZAM.


I get it now. It's us, we're all the problem here. Clearly, ZAM, one of the larger forum groups around, must all be wrong because you and "your people" know better. Smiley: lol

It's funny though, because the people I'VE talked to about ARR, all agree that it looks great and not once has "WoW clone" come up in conversations. And shocking as it may seem, none of these friends even post on ZAM!

Killua125 wrote:
Honest question, would you prefer quest themeparks over a game with more freedom?


I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'll answer. If quests are well done and diverse, then I have absolutely no problem with them guiding me along to the next "hub". In fact, I prefer it because it keeps me focused on where I'm going and it just makes sense. As long as it's immersive content, that works for me. I'd rather have that then running around for hours at random questing or grinding because I have the "freedom" to do so.

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 3:10pm by BartelX
#80 Apr 16 2013 at 1:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Honest question, would you prefer quest themeparks over a game with more freedom? If you don't at least give your opinion, it's kinda pointless. I've certainly given mine.


Ignoring the false choice you've provided here, here's my opinion..

Yes.

Yes, I want those things. I don't always want one or the other. I'm a person, not a brick.

Sometimes I want some mindless questing where I can just run around accomplishing quest objectives and gain some levels and some loot. Sometimes I want to craft for a while and make cool stuff, or skill up my tradeskills, or gear up an alt. Sometimes I want to farm mobs or herbs or ore. Sometimes I want to shoot things in the face for 3 hours. Sometimes I want to be swept away in a narrative where I really identify with my character because the story has developed around me and through my actions and choices.

I'm also capable of playing more than one game by the way.

I'm looking for FFXIV to give me a Final Fantasy-quality story as well as the MMO aspects I've come to enjoy. I'm hoping for combat that ranges from mindless directed grinding, all the way up to complex bosses that require solid strategy and execution to defeat. I'm hoping for meaningful crafting, but I'm also hoping it won't cause me physical pain to progress through.

And sometimes I want to shoot things in the face. Borderlands 2 is pretty good for that. Also Warframe.

I will be 100% honest with you right here, right now. When FFXIV was first announced back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, I was honestly hoping for FFXI with WoW-style gameplay. Yes, that's right, my original hope for XIV was that it would be WoW but with Final Fantasy.

So much for nobody wanting that, huh?

I'm glad that SE is embracing modern MMO standards. I'm seriously hoping they can do that and keep it a Final Fantasy game. It's tough, but I think they can do it.
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#81Killua125, Posted: Apr 16 2013 at 1:08 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I didn't mean it like that. Fansites are naturally less critical.
#82 Apr 16 2013 at 1:11 PM Rating: Good
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I've never heard of someone asking for LESS things to do in a game. "Oh man all these quests are getting in my way of walking around the world!"

What other forums are you frequenting where you encounter all this dissent? Because I know that hardly anyone here has the uniform opinion that ARR will succeed. That's because no one knows, and hardly pretend to.

The 14 subreddit is pretty much in line with this form of thinking as well, so.. care to share who your people are?
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#83Killua125, Posted: Apr 16 2013 at 1:15 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You seem to think I'm in favor of abolishing quests altogether. It's the handholding quest system which leads you from marker to marker in a predetermined fashion by the developer that I'm not in favor of.
#84 Apr 16 2013 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
I don't think I'm speaking for a silent majority, these people aren't silent, they're just not on ZAM.


I get it now. It's us, we're all the problem here. Clearly, ZAM, one of the larger forum groups around, must all be wrong because you and "your people" know better. Smiley: lol

It's funny though, because the people I'VE talked to about ARR, all agree that it looks great and not once has "WoW clone" come up in conversations. And shocking as it may seem, none of these friends even post on ZAM!


I didn't mean it like that. Fansites are naturally less critical.


You haven't been around for that long, so I can understand how you'd think that. If you had been around longer, you'd realize that ZAM is not just a bunch of white knights for the game. Sure it has it's fair share, but it also has a HUGE group of people who call stuff like they see it, and a fair number of doom and gloom posters like yourself. Heck, during 1.0 the forums were FULL of people posting about the shortcomings of the game, unlike the SE forums which were still vastly positive and of the do-no-wrong mentality.

Regardless, I tend to believe that making assumptions before even having a chance to see what things look like is a pretty silly way to think.
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#85 Apr 16 2013 at 1:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
Killua125 wrote:


Honest question, would you prefer quest themeparks over a game with more freedom? If you don't at least give your opinion, it's kinda pointless. I've certainly given mine.


Maybe I missed this whole themepark analogy but are you trying to suggest that quest chaining limits your freedom in an mmo, and that you would much prefer endless grinding?

Wow, that's novel, I would just love to play this Dynasty Warriors MMO you're dreaming of. Just hit things until your max level, then hit things somewhere else for loot. Sounds amazing.


A lot of MMO armchair designers these days talk about theme parks vs. sand boxes (not sure where the terminology originated). Basically, there's an increasing number of players who want more sandbox games--games where rather than be assigned objectives by the developers, they give you more tools to play with and the players create their own games. Think "The Sims" meets traditional MMOs like FFXI/WoW/etc. More emphasis on player created content, including players as the enemies, etc.

Neither approach is inherently good or bad, though modern MMOs could definitely benefit from borrowing more features that enable emergent game play. I haven't touched WoW in so long, but GW2 is a pretty good example of a themepark MMO. You can't really interact with the world or its players in an especially meaningful way, but there are lots of tasks to complete.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#86 Apr 16 2013 at 1:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Killua125 wrote:


Honest question, would you prefer quest themeparks over a game with more freedom? If you don't at least give your opinion, it's kinda pointless. I've certainly given mine.


Maybe I missed this whole themepark analogy but are you trying to suggest that quest chaining limits your freedom in an mmo, and that you would much prefer endless grinding?

Wow, that's novel, I would just love to play this Dynasty Warriors MMO you're dreaming of. Just hit things until your max level, then hit things somewhere else for loot. Sounds amazing.


A lot of MMO armchair designers these days talk about theme parks vs. sand boxes (not sure where the terminology originated). Basically, there's an increasing number of players who want more sandbox games--games where rather than be assigned objectives by the developers, they give you more tools to play with and the players create their own games. Think "The Sims" meets traditional MMOs like FFXI/WoW/etc. More emphasis on player created content, including players as the enemies, etc.

Neither approach is inherently good or bad, though modern MMOs could definitely benefit from borrowing more features that enable emergent game play. I haven't touched WoW in so long, but GW2 is a pretty good example of a themepark MMO. You can't really interact with the world or its players in an especially meaningful way, but there are lots of tasks to complete.


Ah, thanks for the clarification. And Eve is a good example of player-created systems then?

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#87 Apr 16 2013 at 1:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh, durr. Of course. Eve is one of the more commonly talked-about sandbox MMOs.

(durr on me, not you)

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 12:40pm by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#88 Apr 16 2013 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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So that's interesting. I was playing the Neverwinter beta a few weeks ago, and one of their big things is the ability for players to create quest chains for other players. They place all the mobs, write the text boxes, it's pretty cool and definitely emphasizes the D&D aspect of that game.

It also has an on-rails questing system.
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#89 Apr 16 2013 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Killua125 wrote:
Running back and forth and back and forth fetching things and kill/come back quests is not enjoyable for me.

You've honestly never heard of any negativity towards those systems?

Quote:
"Oh man all these quests are getting in my way of walking around the world!"


Well, actually... that is kinda the issue. The predetermined quest chain/themepark is set up for you in such a way that you're penalized if you stray from it.

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 3:17pm by Killua125


Well it's a good thing that quest-chaining isn't the only thing planned for ARR, right :D

Seriously, everything I've read talks about varied leveling activities. FATE, Dungeons, Levequests, Quest Chains, Main Quests, Free Companies, Grand Companies, etc.

Obviously not a sandbox but.. I mean was that ever an option? You sound let down by this, when we knew it all along.
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#90 Apr 16 2013 at 1:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Guildhests too.

If you don't want to do the quest chain, don't. After your first job does them I doubt they become available again for other jobs anyway so you can't rely on the quest chain for other jobs. I still think that is a unique feature of FFXI and XIV, being able to level every single job on the same char.
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#91 Apr 16 2013 at 1:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
So that's interesting. I was playing the Neverwinter beta a few weeks ago, and one of their big things is the ability for players to create quest chains for other players. They place all the mobs, write the text boxes, it's pretty cool and definitely emphasizes the D&D aspect of that game.

It also has an on-rails questing system.


When I suggest a sandbox versus ARR's theme park quest system, I'm not using Kachi's definition (a game with a lot of creation tools).

I'm talking about a game which gives the players freedom to do what they want to do. It's that simple.

I haven't tried Neverwinter yet (nor do I know anything about it), so can't comment on that.

The problem with "just don't do it" is that these systems typically punish you for not following the set paths. That's their whole thing. They make you feel like you're being rewarded and progressing briskly by doing these fetch quests; in reality they're just penalizing you for doing anything else.

This is what happens in a themepark, where you're following the path that's lined out for you:

Person 1: I want to go explore 'x'!
Person 2: There's no point. We don't have any quests for that.

You're just on a ride and you have to let the current of the quest flow take you through areas and content as it pleases.

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 3:56pm by Killua125
#92 Apr 16 2013 at 1:57 PM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
So that's interesting. I was playing the Neverwinter beta a few weeks ago, and one of their big things is the ability for players to create quest chains for other players. They place all the mobs, write the text boxes, it's pretty cool and definitely emphasizes the D&D aspect of that game.

It also has an on-rails questing system.


When I suggest a sandbox versus ARR's theme park quest system, I'm not using Kachi's definition (a game with a lot of creation tools).

I'm talking about a game which gives the players freedom to do what they want to do. It's that simple.


Then by your own definition, FFXIV is exactly what you are looking for.

Louiscool wrote:
Well it's a good thing that quest-chaining isn't the only thing planned for ARR, right :D

Seriously, everything I've read talks about varied leveling activities. FATE, Dungeons, Levequests, Quest Chains, Main Quests, Free Companies, Grand Companies, etc.


Add to that guildhests, solo grinding, and party XP and that seems like a great amount of freedom to do what you want to do.

Congratulations, you just became a fan of the game. It's that simple.

#93 Apr 16 2013 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
When I suggest a sandbox versus ARR's theme park quest system, I'm not using Kachi's definition (a game with a lot of creation tools).

I'm talking about a game which gives the players freedom to do what they want to do. It's that simple.


But you're still operating within the confines of the game's space. You're still limited to things the designers and programmers gave you the ability to do.

You've said before that your objection isn't with the idea of quest chaining, but it really sounds like it is.

Wint has already mentioned that the quest chain won't be there for your second, third, fourth, nth class or however many it takes to use up all the lowbie quests. So clearly ARR has to account for that already.

You can't possibly know whether NOT following the quest chain is super punishing or not. Even if you're in the beta you're limited to Gridania and limited on side quests and class quests. So you'd be getting an incomplete picture there. (that's all in the roadmap btw).
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#94 Apr 16 2013 at 2:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Killua125 wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
So that's interesting. I was playing the Neverwinter beta a few weeks ago, and one of their big things is the ability for players to create quest chains for other players. They place all the mobs, write the text boxes, it's pretty cool and definitely emphasizes the D&D aspect of that game.

It also has an on-rails questing system.


When I suggest a sandbox versus ARR's theme park quest system, I'm not using Kachi's definition (a game with a lot of creation tools).

I'm talking about a game which gives the players freedom to do what they want to do. It's that simple.



You do have that. Pretty sure your just trolling now, because you're ignoring the fact that you can do whatever you want. You can only craft if you like, or level solely on dungeons, or whatever you like.

Quote:


The problem with "just don't do it" is that these systems typically punish you for not following the set paths. That's their whole thing. They make you feel like you're being rewarded and progressing briskly by doing these fetch quests; in reality they're just penalizing you for doing anything else.

This is what happens in a themepark, where you're following the path that's lined out for you:

Person 1: I want to go explore 'x'!
Person 2: There's no point. We don't have any quests for that.

You're just on a ride and you have to let the current of the quest flow take you through areas and content as it pleases.

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 3:56pm by Killua125


So you want freedom to explore? I've never heard anything blocking you from exploring, or anyone getting to max level in any game by making maps.

In fact, there is the fundamental flaw in your argument. The world won't be changing THAT much, and as such, there isn't some long tunnel world to move through. 1.0 had 3 majors cities, no central hub (well Ul'Dah was because where everyone went but I hated it.) There wasn't some final destination, and very few areas were "only for high level" content.

Yoshi-P even said somewhere he doesn't want those kinda of barriers, and basically there won't be any aggressive monsters on roads, so as long as you stick to paths you could explore as a level 1.



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#95 Apr 16 2013 at 2:05 PM Rating: Default
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I'm not a fan, but I'm not... not a fan. I'm just waiting on my full product and commenting on things as the game inches towards completion.

If you can just explore with your friends and kill stuff and can go where you want and progress just as efficiently as people doing the quest chains, I'd be all in favor of it. I just doubt that will be the case.
#96 Apr 16 2013 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
I'm not a fan, but I'm not... not a fan. I'm just waiting on my full product and commenting on things as the game inches towards completion.

If you can just explore with your friends and kill stuff and can go where you want and progress just as efficiently as people doing the quest chains, I'd be all in favor of it. I just doubt that will be the case.


Why wouldn't it be the case? As has been stated a bunch now, there are tons of ways to level. As has also been stated, those quests are only available once, so clearly the other avenues of leveling will be just as efficient. I'm not sure why you would think that quest chains will be the only efficient way to level other than your obsession that the game must be an exact replica of WoW, something that has never been stated anywhere.

Literally all of your gripes are with these assumptions that you are making. Just open up your mind a bit, and realize that you really have no clue what the game will be like until you play it, so talking about how it's going to be is pointless. You don't know. You think you do, but you don't.
#97 Apr 16 2013 at 2:27 PM Rating: Default
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BartelX wrote:
Literally all of your gripes are with these assumptions that you are making. Just open up your mind a bit, and realize that you really have no clue what the game will be like until you play it, so talking about how it's going to be is pointless. You don't know. You think you do, but you don't.


Not all of my gripes. If the fetch quests are totally optional and I absolutely can do what I want and ignore them, I'll give you that one (I'm still not convinced).
#98 Apr 16 2013 at 2:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Killua125 wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
So that's interesting. I was playing the Neverwinter beta a few weeks ago, and one of their big things is the ability for players to create quest chains for other players. They place all the mobs, write the text boxes, it's pretty cool and definitely emphasizes the D&D aspect of that game.

It also has an on-rails questing system.


When I suggest a sandbox versus ARR's theme park quest system, I'm not using Kachi's definition (a game with a lot of creation tools).

I'm talking about a game which gives the players freedom to do what they want to do. It's that simple.

I haven't tried Neverwinter yet (nor do I know anything about it), so can't comment on that.

The problem with "just don't do it" is that these systems typically punish you for not following the set paths. That's their whole thing. They make you feel like you're being rewarded and progressing briskly by doing these fetch quests; in reality they're just penalizing you for doing anything else.

This is what happens in a themepark, where you're following the path that's lined out for you:

Person 1: I want to go explore 'x'!
Person 2: There's no point. We don't have any quests for that.

You're just on a ride and you have to let the current of the quest flow take you through areas and content as it pleases.

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 3:56pm by Killua125


Even most themepark MMOs have some level of freedom to do as you please. I think what you're struggling to articulate is the importance of an incentive structure that actually encourages you to do the things you want to do. For example, you could solo in FFXI at launch, but it would take an eternity compared to people who partied. Allowing players to do something in theory and actually making it a viable way of experiencing the game are different matters. And there are lots of lazy designers out there who will justify a lack of design by saying, "Well, they can do that if they really want to," which is tantamount to saying, "No, we didn't try to design an experience for players who wanted to do that." If that's what you're trying to get at, it's a legitimate concern.

Having said that, FFXIV probably won't do that part very well, but MOST MMOs don't do that part well. So FFXIV might not be especially good in this regard, but nor is it likely to be especially bad.

Are there any MMOs that you actually do enjoy? Seems likely that you're in the rather large boat of people who love MMOs in theory but can't find one they actually like.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#99 Apr 16 2013 at 2:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Killua125 wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Literally all of your gripes are with these assumptions that you are making. Just open up your mind a bit, and realize that you really have no clue what the game will be like until you play it, so talking about how it's going to be is pointless. You don't know. You think you do, but you don't.


Not all of my gripes. If the fetch quests are totally optional and I absolutely can do what I want and ignore them, I'll give you that one (I'm still not convinced).


I don't think I've ever even played a game where the quests were required. Most quests are totally optional. There might not be a lot to do otherwise, but you won't be forced to do the ones you don't want to.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#100 Apr 16 2013 at 2:32 PM Rating: Excellent
Killua125 wrote:
When I suggest a sandbox versus ARR's theme park quest system, I'm not using Kachi's definition (a game with a lot of creation tools).

I'm talking about a game which gives the players freedom to do what they want to do. It's that simple.


So, Skyrim Online?
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#101 Apr 16 2013 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Killua125 wrote:
Even most themepark MMOs have some level of freedom to do as you please. I think what you're struggling to articulate is the importance of an incentive structure that actually encourages you to do the things you want to do. For example, you could solo in FFXI at launch, but it would take an eternity compared to people who partied. Allowing players to do something in theory and actually making it a viable way of experiencing the game are different matters.


Yes, that is exactly what I was trying to say.

I'm not disputing the fact that you'll be able to just run outside and kill monsters in ARR, the question is whether or not alternative options will really be viable compared to the fetch quest chains which the new build of the game appears to revolve around.

Kachi wrote:
Are there any MMOs that you actually do enjoy? Seems likely that you're in the rather large boat of people who love MMOs in theory but can't find one they actually like.


Tough question... Right now? Not really. I'm downloading Darkfall Unholy Wars right now, but I have somewhat low expectations. The ones I really enjoyed in the past?

Ragnarok Online
Final Fantasy XI
Mabinogi
TERA, sort of (one of the reasons I'm worried about FFXIV: ARR. Great gameplay ruined by the WoW fetch quest+instance system)

I've also enjoyed a few games that were objectively bad just because they had a player-killing system, lol (such as Wakfu. Fun player-killing, but I also love the Disgaea and FFT combat, as well as the original cartoon it's based on).

So that's a small handful of games I do like, and I've tried way too many. Smiley: tongue

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 4:52pm by Killua125
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