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#27 Apr 16 2013 at 6:40 AM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Ok.. so let's try this then..

What would your vision of a Final Fantasy-themed MMO be? What style of combat? How would you like to handle questing? Story?

Remember that your golden rule here was "not WoW." So, ok, do those things well without making it at all like World of Warcraft.

What would your vision of a Final Fantasy-themed MMO be?
An mmo that takes elements from every Final Fantasy before it, streamlines those elements, allows solo progress for leveling and the daily redundant task, but pushes us into a strong multiplayer direction.

What style of combat?
The exact UI they have now for the controller. But incorporate a modifier feature via UI or button manipulations such as holding it down, etc. This modifier would let you control parameters like potency, range, etc.

How would you like to handle questing?
More varied questing with unique ideas and interfaces for interesting quests. Play around with changing npcs views or minds through my actions and conversation choices. Explore different quests job descriptions besides the common kill, fetch, escort stuff.

Story?
I'm no writer for games or books. The writers seem to be doing a good job in ARR. I wish for some emergent lore but the story should be done by SE.

Remember that your golden rule here was "not WoW." So, ok, do those things well without making it at all like World of Warcraft.

As long as the game puts Final Fantasy before mmo or any other game. I care not if they take mindsets or ideas from other mmos. But whether or not they borrow. It has to be good, really good. Half *** execution in being unique or common makes people want to butcher babies rather than play your game.
#28 Apr 16 2013 at 7:28 AM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
I'm not arguing in favor of 1.0. I just don't know if World of Warcraft, but with Final Fantasy fanservice was a great direction to go in.


Killua125 wrote:
Get over what exactly? "Innovation" is the last think the current ARR team is thinking about. It isn't even on their radar. It's all about using World of Warcraft and applying Final Fantasy to it.


Killua125 wrote:
We've been over it - FFXIV doesn't do anything new. It's all this formula, this "global standard" with Final Fantasy icons applied. It's exactly what SWTOR did with much more popular icons.


Killua125 wrote:
Both are theme park, "playing it safe", formulaic MMORPGs. SWTOR took the formula and added jedi, lightsabers, sith, etc. while ARR took the formula and added chocobos, jobs, moogles, etc.


You say all this as if you've already played the game and have any idea what it is like. This is your opinion, from the incredibly limited information that is out there right now. You could absolutely be right, and if so, kudos to you. However, you have no idea if this game is a direct WoW clone, as you haven't played it (beyond possibly a beta with only 20% of the content released).

From what I've seen, it looks more like a game that is pulling the best parts of other mmo's and putting them into 1 game. Duty Finder is a godsend imo, and that's one of the many things I enjoyed in WoW and am glad to see in FFXIV. Same for the FATE system, it was one of my favorite parts of GW2, so I'm excited to see it in this game. You make it out like borrowing good design and gameplay ideas from other games is a bad thing. It's not. It's the way they execute the overall game, the way they build their endgame content, and how smoothly and bug-free their game and servers run.

That is another big reason swtor is failing, the game is so freakin buggy. I still play occasionally, but when my companion is broken, or raids are bugged, or pvp is bugged, or whatever else, it gets old fast. It isn't failing because it's "too much like WoW", the story alone makes it different and worth playing. If there weren't so many bugs and better endgame, I'd still be playing daily probably.

Please don't talk like what you say is fact. It isn't. It can't be until the game is released. And as I said, if it proves to be "just a WoW clone", then congrats on your premonition.

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 9:43am by BartelX
#29 Apr 16 2013 at 7:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
I think that's a decent list, but the server stability and connection issues is a bit more important than you've emphasized. A bad launch isn't a death sentence for an MMO or for any game, but it can cripple it heavily and tarnishes the reputation of the publisher. Look how much sh*t EA has taken over the botched launch of SimCity. Even though those who were able to play it said it's a fun game, the fact that the majority of people who bought it could not even play it that first week really soured the game on a lot of people.

Part of the reason 1.0 originally failed was, in fact, because of the server issues which were never quite resolved. I managed to cling inside the game until the end last November, but many other people were kicked out. 1.0 ended like it began - beautiful graphics, game engine and servers whimpering in pain.


You are very true, but i want to believe that game that hopes to achieve something will resolve the stability and lag fast enough. I believe almost every MMO game has server problems in their launch but its up to them to fix it fast enough. From what you say SE failed to do that with 1.0 something i trust your word since i didn't get to play it.
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#30 Apr 16 2013 at 7:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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I feel like ****ing Bill Murray here, trapped AGAIN on the same day, replaying the same events.

How, oh how will I try to alter them this time? Shall I just point out that this topic is available in 12 other flavors below? Should I call the OP a mean name? What if I attempted to engage in a logical debate with facts to substantiate the huge mother ****ing differences between the two and how the OPs blanket statement shows no forethought and an oversimplification of the issue?

**** it, I'm just going to drive the Groundhog off the cliff.

This topic is now about the new Cool Ranch Doritos Tacos at Taco Bell. Man, they are delish, but I went to get 3 yesterday and they gave me Nacho Cheese flavored! BLEH!!!! Who wants that garbage! AMIRIGHT?!

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 9:49am by Louiscool
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#31 Apr 16 2013 at 7:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
I feel like ****ing Bill Murray here,
I'm not ***, but I'd totally tap Bill Murray.
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#32 Apr 16 2013 at 8:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
This topic is now about the new Cool Ranch Doritos Tacos at Taco Bell. Man, they are delish, but I went to get 3 yesterday and they gave me Nacho Cheese flavored! BLEH!!!! Who wants that garbage! AMIRIGHT?!

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 9:49am by Louiscool


Tried one of those, scarred for life. So nasty. Smiley: glare
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#33 Apr 16 2013 at 9:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Ok.. so let's try this then..

What would your vision of a Final Fantasy-themed MMO be? What style of combat? How would you like to handle questing? Story?

Remember that your golden rule here was "not WoW." So, ok, do those things well without making it at all like World of Warcraft.


The golden rule isn't really "not WoW", I just don't have zero interest in clone games. WoW is a pretty good game and I don't think it's so wrong to take inspiration from it, but I don't want to play a game I've already played in a new skin.

For me, it would be a sandbox MMORPG, first of all. It wouldn't be a themepark World of Warcraft game where you're on rails all the time moving from quest set to quest set where you have to play almost exactly like the developer intended.

I would probably put a big focus on exploration and rewarding player curiosity, with lots of easter eggs for the players to find (little hidden camps, secret quests, secret monsters, etc.) and trophies for finding that stuff. There would be easy to use grouping tools.

There would be quests to encourage exploration to new areas to keep the player moving through the game without totally handholding them, most other quests would contribute facts and tidbits of information relating to the overarching story. I wouldn't add any mindless kill/fetch quests, or go talk to this person for a chunk of EXP. This stuff is just tedious.

I would have a seamless open world, no zones (which break immersion).

For story... I'm no writer. I think it would be cool if you got to make some choices throughout the story which made you feel like you had some impact, even if it didn't necessarily change the outcome (I'm thinking of The Walking Dead). Also, I would probably try to make the nations much more distinct from each other than they are currently. I mean, if one nation was supposed to be a bunch of savage pirates, one more spiritual (I think that's what Gridania is supposed to be?), one more rich, there would need to be a lot of elements in the environment to drive those ideas home.

For combat, I would go with building up TP to unleash devastating attacks. It just feels good. FFXI did it, and TERA did it (with much different targetting, etc). I don't think FFXI's combat was bad on a technical level, it just needed to be more fast paced and have cooler graphics.

I really don't know if people would want a game like that, and I'm clearly not a game designer. I just tried to answer because you asked. I don't think you need to know exactly what the "perfect Final Fantasy MMORPG" would be like to say that people don't want another themepark World of Warcraft game. At this point, there are literally hundreds with the same features and gameplay as FFXIV.
#34 Apr 16 2013 at 9:34 AM Rating: Good
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Why would it be a bad thing if it borrows from the same formulas as WoW?

Warcraft reached unprecedented numbers of players for a MMO, if FFXIV borrowed some familiar elements it might attract some of those WoW players who want to try something new. I am one of those. I'm excited to try something new and if there's elements that look or feel familiar to me then it would be much easier for me to get involved, enjoy it, and maintain a subscription.

The one thing that FFXIV has going for it, over SW:TOR, is that it has a dedicated player base that will likely come back, plus have a few others who might have canceled their subscriptions, who might also come back to check it out, AND then they'll also have new players who are interested in trying it out. They're guaranteed to have a player base when ARR goes live.

Lastly, more often than not games borrow elements from each other! So if ARR is borrowing elements from SW, WoW, Rift, or any other franchise it wouldn't be too surprising nor would it be a bad thing. Furthermore, when borrowing formulas, you can always change them and drop elements that don't work.
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#35 Apr 16 2013 at 9:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yea i never understood why its bad to borrow elements from wow. I enjoyed some of the elements wow had so if i can have them in the next game it wouldn't be too bad.
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#36 Apr 16 2013 at 9:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Alright, I'm a game designer. Let's break this down.

Killua125 wrote:


The golden rule isn't really "not WoW", I just don't have zero interest in clone games. WoW is a pretty good game and I don't think it's so wrong to take inspiration from it, but I don't want to play a game I've already played in a new skin.



You're assuming ARR is WoW in a new skin, again. Too early to judge.

Quote:

For me, it would be a sandbox MMORPG, first of all. It wouldn't be a themepark World of Warcraft game where you're on rails all the time moving from quest set to quest set where you have to play almost exactly like the developer intended.

I would probably put a big focus on exploration and rewarding player curiosity, with lots of easter eggs for the players to find (little hidden camps, secret quests, secret monsters, etc.) and trophies for finding that stuff. There would be easy to use grouping tools.


Rewarding people for exploration and giving achievements for stuff? Wait... that sounds like a game I've played before... Xenoblade Chronicles! But you don't want to play a game you've played in a new skin, right!?

Quote:

There would be quests to encourage exploration to new areas to keep the player moving through the game without totally handholding them, most other quests would contribute facts and tidbits of information relating to the overarching story. I wouldn't add any mindless kill/fetch quests, or go talk to this person for a chunk of EXP. This stuff is just tedious.


You mean... like Final Fantasy XI?

Quote:

I would have a seamless open world, no zones (which break immersion).


PS3 limitations prevent doing this. 1.0 did this and in order to try and compensate for the PS3, we had repeated textures all over the place due to PS3's limited processing power. They compensated the variety of areas by bringing loading screens back in order to load and unload unused textures. Maybe if development of this game was held off until the PS4 we could have gotten something better, but we're stuck with what we have. Sorry.

Quote:

For story... I'm no writer. I think it would be cool if you got to make some choices throughout the story which made you feel like you had some impact, even if it didn't necessarily change the outcome (I'm thinking of The Walking Dead). Also, I would probably try to make the nations much more distinct from each other than they are currently. I mean, if one nation was supposed to be a bunch of savage pirates, one more spiritual (I think that's what Gridania is supposed to be?), one more rich, there would need to be a lot of elements in the environment to drive those ideas home.


I imagine it would be. Again, calling doom-and-gloom before we can talk about the actual diversity. Play Phase 4 of the Beta and complain then if it doesn't fit your specifications.

Quote:

For combat, I would go with building up TP to unleash devastating attacks. It just feels good. FFXI did it, and TERA did it (with much different targetting, etc). I don't think FFXI's combat was bad on a technical level, it just needed to be more fast paced and have cooler graphics.


You want to build up TP which is normally a very slow process, but make combat more fast paced. Which one do you want?

Quote:

I really don't know if people would want a game like that, and I'm clearly not a game designer.


I can tell.
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#37 Apr 16 2013 at 9:50 AM Rating: Decent
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
Alright, I'm a game designer. Let's break this down.
Quote:

I really don't know if people would want a game like that, and I'm clearly not a game designer.


I can tell.


He just asked what my ideal Final Fantasy MMORPG might sound like. Also "you can tell"? You stated that you were a game designer and proceeded to put me down for not being one, but you didn't really call out any of my ideas as being bad for game design reasons... it just seemed like an unnecessary jab at the end.

UltKnightGrover wrote:
You're assuming ARR is WoW in a new skin, again. Too early to judge.


The information is all public at this point.

UltKnightGrover wrote:
Quote:

For me, it would be a sandbox MMORPG, first of all. It wouldn't be a themepark World of Warcraft game where you're on rails all the time moving from quest set to quest set where you have to play almost exactly like the developer intended.

I would probably put a big focus on exploration and rewarding player curiosity, with lots of easter eggs for the players to find (little hidden camps, secret quests, secret monsters, etc.) and trophies for finding that stuff. There would be easy to use grouping tools.


Rewarding people for exploration and giving achievements for stuff? Wait... that sounds like a game I've played before... Xenoblade Chronicles! But you don't want to play a game you've played in a new skin, right!?


That idea isn't necessarily from Xenoblade (it goes back way further), but the concept of taking things from other games isn't a bad one. It only becomes obnoxious when you take so much that your game doesn't really have its own identity.

UltKnightGrover wrote:
Quote:

For combat, I would go with building up TP to unleash devastating attacks. It just feels good. FFXI did it, and TERA did it (with much different targetting, etc). I don't think FFXI's combat was bad on a technical level, it just needed to be more fast paced and have cooler graphics.


You want to build up TP which is normally a very slow process, but make combat more fast paced. Which one do you want?


I don't see why building up TP points through regular attacks has to be a slow process.

UltKnightGrover wrote:
Quote:

There would be quests to encourage exploration to new areas to keep the player moving through the game without totally handholding them, most other quests would contribute facts and tidbits of information relating to the overarching story. I wouldn't add any mindless kill/fetch quests, or go talk to this person for a chunk of EXP. This stuff is just tedious.


You mean... like Final Fantasy XI?


A little bit, in the sense that they're not handholding you from quest to quest. They were more fragmented. The quest system in FFXI was too confusing and unclear for people though. How to start quests, how to complete them, whether you had started a quest... it was all a bit unclear. But yeah, kind of.

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 11:58am by Killua125
#38 Apr 16 2013 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:

The information is all public at this point.


Yes. That's why I'm bound by an NDA to not talk about the game. Because it's all public.

Quote:

That idea isn't necessarily from Xenoblade (it goes back way further), but the concept of taking things from other games isn't a bad one. It only becomes obnoxious when you take so much that your game doesn't really have its own identity.


Again, you're so stuck in this idea that you know everything about the game.

Quote:

I don't see why building up TP points through regular attacks has to be a slow process.


I see. So you don't want combat to be like WoW, but you want combat to be like every generic F2P Korean MMO out there.

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#39 Apr 16 2013 at 9:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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I want to put my fist through my monitor when people use the phrase "break my immersion". It's such a ******** excuse to ***** about things done in the game.
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#40 Apr 16 2013 at 9:58 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
This topic is now about the new Cool Ranch Doritos Tacos at Taco Bell. Man, they are delish, but I went to get 3 yesterday and they gave me Nacho Cheese flavored! BLEH!!!! Who wants that garbage! AMIRIGHT?!

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 9:49am by Louiscool


Tried one of those, scarred for life. So nasty. Smiley: glare

I am a big fan of Cool Ranch Doritos, or at least was in my younger years.

I was also a big fan of the Nacho Cheese Doritos Tacos (they really are very good, albeit a tad messy).

Figuring Cool Ranch Doritos were a natural progression that just made sense, I was excited to try them when they came out. Huge mistake... those things are F'Kin naaaasty. They were like tacos that had been rolled around in an odd mix of viniger and baby powder... it just didnt' go well with the flavors of the food inside the taco itself. They need to Nix that menu item and only sell the Nacho Cheese flavor Doritos Locos tacos IMHO.

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 11:58am by FUJILIVES
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#41 Apr 16 2013 at 10:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Sorry to cause another hole in your monitor, Wint, but I do have some things that do break immersion in a game.

Inconsistent music. A forest playing hard rock music or something where it clearly doesn't make sense.
Inconsistent style. 1.0 bugged the **** out of me when we went from walking through the Shroud to Thanalan desert with no sense of gradual transition.

There's other things, but loading screens isn't one of them. It can get a bit annoying, but until processing power catches up with graphics on home consoles it's something that'll need to be dealt with.

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 9:01am by UltKnightGrover
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#42Killua125, Posted: Apr 16 2013 at 10:02 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) No, every generic F2P Korean MMO is like WoW.
#43 Apr 16 2013 at 10:03 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
I feel like ****ing Bill Murray here,
I'm not ***, but I'd totally tap Bill Murray.


In hindsight, maybe it should have been Bill ***** Murray, but I stand by my original statement.
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#44 Apr 16 2013 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
Wint wrote:
I want to put my fist through my monitor when people use the phrase "break my immersion". It's such a bullsh*t excuse to ***** about things done in the game.


People talk about anything breaking their immersion, and it does get annoying at times, but I think I'm legitimate in saying that a crapload of zone loading times does break immersion. It feels much less like you're in a real, living world. It's a constant reminder every few seconds that this is just a cluster of lobbies and going to the zone takes you to a new lobby.

UltKnightGrover wrote:
I see. So you don't want combat to be like WoW, but you want combat to be like every generic F2P Korean MMO out there.


No, every generic F2P Korean MMO is like WoW.

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 12:04pm by Killua125


You know what breaks immersion even more!?

When developers have to create artificial zones because a seemless, zoneless world is too taxing on the system, so you step 20 feet away from your party and the entire parties HP bars become ?????? and you didn't even know you were gong too far away, or when they have to take content that was planned to be open-world awesome-sauce (Hamlet) and make it another instance that's boring.

Yeah. Give me zones. Give me rich area changes instead of copy/pasted landscapes because seamless worlds limit design creativity.
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#45 Apr 16 2013 at 10:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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I recognize that my involuntary urges around "immersion" are unusual and most likely idiotic, but I can't help it (it's like when people say gils when referring to multiple gil HULKSMASH Smiley: banghead)

Regarding zone loading times, I don't think they should be long either, but from my experience with my hands on, the zones load fast and are really not a big issue.

Fun fact for you XI players (noticed from my hands on in San Francisco), you can keep typing your message to your friends (Tell, LS, Party, etc) while zoning, the UI doesn't blank out while you're changing areas. It's freaking awesome Smiley: thumbsup
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#46Killua125, Posted: Apr 16 2013 at 10:20 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I don't really see how seamless worlds limit creativity... you would think there's a lot more creativity in seamless worlds and realistic transitions than stuff like.
#47 Apr 16 2013 at 10:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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You keep saying every few seconds. I highly doubt that's accurate.


edit: If the zones are as big as they were in FFXI, I really don't think it'll be an issue. I think XI was very immersive.

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 12:27pm by JonnyWolf
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#48 Apr 16 2013 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:

I'm pretty sure that "????" thing isn't inherent to a seamless world either.



For 1.0, it was. To make it seamless and to not lag the game down, the zone had to unload the assets of monsters and player characters if you were x/y distance away. That caused party members to change in and out of ??? and it was one of the most annoying aspects of 1.0.
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#49 Apr 16 2013 at 10:48 AM Rating: Good
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I love zones, and loading screens accompanying them.

In your example of a snowy area that gets gradually snowier, how is your immersion not "broken"?

You have 2 ways to do that:

- The snow gradually builds after walking MANY MILES, like real life.
- The devs realize no one wants to walk miles and condense it to feet.

In the first case you have a boring game, and in the second its the same thing as a zone, only you need 2 braincells to notice it, instead of just one with a loading screen.

Same with any other drastic environment change.


In terms of limiting creativity, see example above. Other examples include expansion packs with new areas. "Well we really wanted to add that tropical rainforest area but there just was no place to start the transition and we didn't want to spend all our resources making it."

Creativity is limited by hardware and software capability, and by making zones, the designers can create more elaborate structures, more caves, more giant lighthouse windmill thingies with moving parts.

So yes, seemless world comes at a sacrifice to playability (not just PS#4 limitations, but people with lower-end computers)
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#50 Apr 16 2013 at 11:00 AM Rating: Default
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I really can't see how you would "love" zones, and loading screens. I really don't see how.

Yes, obviously it's a game and not real life. They're going to make you walk for days to reach a snowy/ice area. That doesn't mean a loading screen is preferable over a natural, flowing transition. I've never heard anyone say "I love loading screens"... I think you're just giving me a hard time. I think anyone would prefer them to not be there.

Louiscool wrote:
In terms of limiting creativity, see example above. Other examples include expansion packs with new areas. "Well we really wanted to add that tropical rainforest area but there just was no place to start the transition and we didn't want to spend all our resources making it.


I don't think it would limit creativity it all. I think it promotes more creativity to make a fleshed out seamless world. If they want to make an expansion with a tropical area and it doesn't fit in Eorzea, they can have players fly an airship to a different continent.

I know that there are issues with the PS3 in regards to zones, but I was asked to describe my ideal Final Fantasy MMORPG (which wouldn't be restricted by an old console, honestly). It's just hypothetical.


Edited, Apr 16th 2013 1:06pm by Killua125
#51 Apr 16 2013 at 11:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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The thing is, even zones within the same region should have subtle variations in color and landscape. Although the regional climate will be the same, the micro climates due to elevation and proximity to rivers and streams will all be different.

One of the things that was depressing about The Black Shroud in 1.0 was that it was the same uniform green throughout every zone, then suddenly switched to the jagged mountains of Mor Dorhna without warning. With the individual zoning in 2.0, they can probably have a much more gradual change over to the mountainous area.

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 1:31pm by Catwho
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