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Thought about SWTOR vs ARRFollow

#52 Apr 16 2013 at 11:10 AM Rating: Default
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Catwho wrote:
The thing is, even zones within the same region should have subtle variations in color and landscape. Although the regional climate will be the same, the micro climates due to elevation and proximity to revivers and streams will all be different.

One of the things that was depressing about The Black Shroud in 1.0 was that it was the same uniform green throughout every zone, then suddenly switched to the jagged mountains of Mor Dorhna without warning. With the individual zoning in 2.0, they can probably have a much more gradual change over to the mountainous area.


Yeah, but that's an issue with 1.0 just being overall badly made - not the concept of a seamless, open world.

It's not like a loading screen is really going to change anything. Will it be more believable to jump instantly from green plains to mountains instantly, if there's a loading screen in between?

It's either natural or it isn't.

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 1:12pm by Killua125
#53 Apr 16 2013 at 11:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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The golden rule isn't really "not WoW", I just don't have zero interest in clone games. WoW is a pretty good game and I don't think it's so wrong to take inspiration from it, but I don't want to play a game I've already played in a new skin.


I'm confused. Your biggest complaint with SWTOR and (sight-unseen) with ARR is that it's too much like WoW, but now you're saying that it's ok to use WoW's elements.

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It wouldn't be a themepark World of Warcraft game where you're on rails all the time moving from quest set to quest set where you have to play almost exactly like the developer intended.


Ok first off, every theme park-style MMO isn't World of Warcraft. Those two terms are not equivalent. Second, are you aware this is Final Fantasy? One of the most on-rails RPG series in the history of gaming?

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I would probably put a big focus on exploration and rewarding player curiosity, with lots of easter eggs for the players to find (little hidden camps, secret quests, secret monsters, etc.) and trophies for finding that stuff. There would be easy to use grouping tools.


Like Rift? And SWTOR? Both of those games had exploration elements and rewarded you for doing them. Rift had its artifact system as well as achievements for doing goofy things like jumping off waterfalls and not dying. SWTOR had its datacrons which usually involved elaborate jumping puzzles and careful maneuvering across environments. Guild Wars 2 had vistas which usually required climbing up a wall or completing a jumping puzzle. And WoW has the easiest-to-use grouping tool I've ever seen.

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I would have a seamless open world, no zones (which break immersion).


Not really possible with the PS3, but on the subject of zone boundaries breaking immersion... FFXI had them, I never felt like my immersion was broken in that game. And that was with some pretty stark zone contrasts. This seems like a red herring to me.

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I think it would be cool if you got to make some choices throughout the story which made you feel like you had some impact, even if it didn't necessarily change the outcome (I'm thinking of The Walking Dead).


That's SWTOR.

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Also, I would probably try to make the nations much more distinct from each other than they are currently. I mean, if one nation was supposed to be a bunch of savage pirates, one more spiritual (I think that's what Gridania is supposed to be?), one more rich, there would need to be a lot of elements in the environment to drive those ideas home.


That's every faction-based game ever made.

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For combat, I would go with building up TP to unleash devastating attacks.


Warriors in WoW and every combo-point based class ever.

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I don't think FFXI's combat was bad on a technical level, it just needed to be more fast paced and have cooler graphics.


I'm sorry, did ARR not have ENOUGH particle effects for you?

While it's certainly possible to do fast-pased combat with resource building and burning, it's hardly original, and it's not everyone's cup of tea either.

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it just seemed like an unnecessary jab at the end.


It was. But you were so dead set against ARR having anything to do with WoW, that I thought I'd mention it to remind you of that rule in your response. You did not succeed.

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The information is all public at this point.


Smiley: dubious

Let me just say that I don't think you're necessarily wrong in that people are probably not going to take a strict WoW-clone very seriously. But I'd also like to say that you have no basis for stating that that's what ARR is. So maybe don't rush to judgement quite so quickly and declare that the sky is falling.

Furthermore, just because an MMO uses modern game design concepts, does not make it a clone of every game that came before it that pioneered those concepts. If they can be used in interesting ways and make a fun game, I'm interested, and I'm probably not the only one. I'd also like to remind you what happened the last time SE set out to make changes for the sake of making changes. It did not go well.
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#54Killua125, Posted: Apr 16 2013 at 11:31 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It's just realistic. These countries are supposed to have different cultures but they hardly have anything to set themselves apart from each other. There's nothing "magical" about Gridania. It's just a place with a lot of trees.
#55 Apr 16 2013 at 11:33 AM Rating: Decent
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GDLYL wrote:
preludes wrote:
SWTOR failed for the exact same reason FFXIV ARR will fail, they spent too much money on a game that will never attract millions of players.

SWTOR would of been quite successful if it would of had a normal budget of around 50m, it just can't make the money back because it spent way too much on development. FFXIV ARR spent about the same if not more, so yeah it's not going to go well.


Hindsight is supposed to be 20/20, because after you've gathered all the facts, you can see the big picture. This is what you come up with? I really wish you would have posted something more intelligent. Strange as it may be, I do love hearing a really good differing opinion. I know you post those things with the intent of getting some White Knight to run to the game's defense. It detracts from it. That aside, I have some thoughts.

Hindsight being a wonderful thing, I've learned from FFXI, that an MMO doesn't need millions of subscribers to be profitable. What do you think they spent the money on exactly? You seem to have a wonderful imagination, you should make some more assumptions. I don't care for Star Wars, but I did hear they had quality voice acting/story. Maybe some of the money went there. I've also heard that they lacked things to do at the end game stage. That leaves me wondering what else could have taken up all those development resources. You seem to know though.

There has never been a company that took a failed MMO and rebuilt it from the ground up. Even you can see that as a huge financial risk. We all love to talk ourselves up and profess/imply that we know what's best, or what would, and wouldn't work. Running with that train of thought, would you take that risk? If yes, how would you feel about failing? Have you ever failed at something? If yes, when you try again, do you try twice as hard? Three times? How hard? The most beautiful thing about ARR, is its "people" inspired development. There is no "stick up the ***" person doing whatever he wants. I'm more worried about Final Fantasy XV, than I am ARR. At least Yoshi knows what not to do, and shows interest in what the majority wants.

If ARR fails, it wont be for the reason you stated. It seems like everyone is aware how badly ARR's failure is going affect SE, but never factor how that impacts the way they handle it. For some reason, people like you think that the company's just going to sit on their ***, and just go down without a fight. You over simplify everything. I can see it now, "ARR fails because fans found out that it spent too much money in development." Genius right?

If this were a new dev team trying to making it, I'd be less optimistic. Luckily, some people can afford mistakes, while other's can't. It's also fortunate enough to carry the "Final Fantasy" name, mostly likely the only reason they might pull this off. The only thing ARR needs to be successful, is to be a fun game that people actually want to play. No one is going to ignore it just because it had a bad launch, while every review site is saying how great it is. Obviously, if the reviews are bad, they wont come back. That pretty much makes their path forward very clear. If they put more than 50 million or more into the right areas of development, that just might be what they need to attract people. Seeing as we have no idea what they're developing in great detail, I'm going to assume your negativity is a personal issue, not a logical one.

Try and recall how the name "Final Fantasy" came to be. If failure means the end of the company (Which I hope it does Smiley: smile), that might give them good incentive to stop all the bad ideas they've been spending money on for the past decade. Perhaps snap them out of this complacency "we" enabled. I do hope they pull out all the stops, so they don't fail again. That's what I would do. They even asked fans for input, which never would have happened without the failure. (I hope interacting with fans continues) If it fails again, maybe it's time to move on.

P.S.

I miss early 1.0 days when the negativity had real merit. It was an anti SE field day! White Knights were slaughtered daily!


FFXI cost 16-24 million to create and launched at a time when expectations for updates were low, customer service expectations were low and when they could grab a large number of MMO virgins, same thing wow did. It's a lot easier to hold onto those kind of MMO players as opposed to MMO players today that have higher standards and a lot of MMO experience.

FFXI cost 16-24 million to create and took a few years to make that back.
SWTOR cost 250 million + and last I read still hasn't made that money back yet.
FFXIV cost probably around 150 million at the very least, given a double development cycle and a huge amount of well paid people working on it.

Here comes the intelligent part. If a game cost 16 million you can easily have less players and make a lot of money from it, but the more the development costs the more players you need which explains why you need millions of players to recoupe 150-200 million. Main reason for this shockingly because 150million is more than 16 million.

When all these games have the same box and sub price it's a heck of a lot easier to make back 16 million (which took a few years according to a SE article) as opposed to hundreds of millions. The huge cost of FFXIV and the fact that it will never attract millions of players means they will have to add a cash shop to even recover the development costs.



Edited, Apr 16th 2013 1:39pm by preludes
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#56 Apr 16 2013 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
UltKnightGrover wrote:
You're assuming ARR is WoW in a new skin, again. Too early to judge.


The information is all public at this point.


Please link to all this crazy amount of information proving that ARR is WoW in a new skin. Please also link to the 80% of content that has yet to even be released, and how all of that content is also a replica of WoW. When you can do that, then you can consider the information "public at this point". Until then, you are making some pretty incredible assumptions. I actually have to wonder if this is all just a big troll attempt, and you're sitting there laughing at all of us for taking the bait...

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 1:33pm by BartelX
#57 Apr 16 2013 at 11:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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I often wonder why you guys reply to these guys, they're obviously baiting you Smiley: smile
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#58 Apr 16 2013 at 11:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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#59 Apr 16 2013 at 11:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
We're bored at work.


Fair enough Smiley: laugh
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#60 Apr 16 2013 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
I often wonder why you guys reply to these guys, they're obviously baiting you Smiley: smile


Catwho wrote:
We're bored at work.


Actually...yeah...

What else am I supposed to do while I'm waiting for half a dozen computers to finish doing whatever it is they're doing?
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#61Killua125, Posted: Apr 16 2013 at 11:45 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm not baiting anyone. I can only discuss the huge amount of information provided by Yoshi-P.
#62 Apr 16 2013 at 11:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wint wrote:
I often wonder why you guys reply to these guys, they're obviously baiting you Smiley: smile
How else am I gonna catch up to Joph?

And don't act innocent, you're the one letting the sock to continue posting. Smiley: tongue

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 1:47pm by lolgaxe
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#63 Apr 16 2013 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
I'm not baiting anyone. I can only discuss the huge amount of information provided by Yoshi-P.

Regardless of how much content is released, it's fair to say that the basic architecture of the game isn't going to change, right?

Combat doesn't change when you get to a new area, and neither will the themepark game design of shuffling between quest marker to quest marker.

Do you really find it that hard to believe that I wouldn't like that, when over a dozen new MMORPGs using that design come out and flop each year?


Um, if only 20% of the content has been released, how can you make any kind of assumption as to what the other 80% will be with any kind of certainty? The answer is, you cannot. Until you play it, you have no idea other than the 1-2 paragraph blurbs that have been released about it.

And actually, the basic architecture of combat could change pretty significantly between now and launch, and it has been stated that it WILL change considerably. Not to mention, combat and questing are not the only aspects of the game. They are parts of the game, and if they share similarities to WoW, so be it. They also share similarities to a bunch of other MMO's NOT named WoW. I'm still waiting to be overwhelmed by all this information confirming that ARR is a WoW clone. Care to provide some links?
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#64 Apr 16 2013 at 11:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Wint wrote:
I often wonder why you guys reply to these guys, they're obviously baiting you Smiley: smile
How else am I gonna catch up to Joph?

And don't act innocent, you're the one letting the sock to continue posting. Smiley: tongue

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 1:47pm by lolgaxe


If he's a sock, he's being extremely careful with his IP addresses.
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#65 Apr 16 2013 at 11:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:

Wint wrote:
I often wonder why you guys reply to these guys, they're obviously baiting you Smiley: smile


I'm not baiting anyone. I can only discuss the huge amount of information provided by Yoshi-P.

Regardless of how much content is released, it's fair to say that the basic architecture of the game isn't going to change, right?

Combat doesn't change when you get to a new area, and neither will the themepark game design of shuffling between quest marker to quest marker.

Do you really find it that hard to believe that I wouldn't like that, when over a dozen new MMORPGs using that design come out and flop each year?


Edited, Apr 16th 2013 1:46pm by Killua125


Since you don't have access to the beta you don't know that. And if you do have access and are making these comments, I guess you're divulging NDA'd info and I'm going to have to ban you. Which is it?
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#66 Apr 16 2013 at 11:58 AM Rating: Default
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BartelX wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
I'm not baiting anyone. I can only discuss the huge amount of information provided by Yoshi-P.

Regardless of how much content is released, it's fair to say that the basic architecture of the game isn't going to change, right?

Combat doesn't change when you get to a new area, and neither will the themepark game design of shuffling between quest marker to quest marker.

Do you really find it that hard to believe that I wouldn't like that, when over a dozen new MMORPGs using that design come out and flop each year?


Um, if only 20% of the content has been released, how can you make any kind of assumption as to what the other 80% will be with any kind of certainty? The answer is, you cannot. Until you play it, you have no idea other than the 1-2 paragraph blurbs that have been released about it.

And actually, the basic architecture of combat could change pretty significantly between now and launch, and it has been stated that it WILL change considerably. Not to mention, combat and questing are not the only aspects of the game. They are parts of the game, and if they share similarities to WoW, so be it. They also share similarities to a bunch of other MMO's NOT named WoW. I'm still waiting to be overwhelmed by all this information confirming that ARR is a WoW clone. Care to provide some links?


I'm not talking about updates. I used the combat example like this: if you go from one area to the next, a game's combat isn't going to change entirely. The game isn't going to change from a themepark to a sandbox MMO by going to an unreleased area.

It's just a quest marker tedious fetch quest-fest. Deliver an item to some random lady. Go kill 10 critters. Go back to the lady. Give her the critter furs. Go back to the guy who sent you to her. Over and over. That's how these themepark quest games work. This is Yoshi-P's "vision".

If you want information on how the game works, go over the Q&As, producer letters, screenshots, Live Letters, interviews, etc...

Wint wrote:
Since you don't have access to the beta you don't know that. And if you do have access and are making these comments, I guess you're divulging NDA'd info and I'm going to have to ban you. Which is it?


To clarify, I don't know if the game's whole architecture is going to change if you move to a new area. I base that assumption on every other game I've ever played. You can ban me if you need to, but I would rather you just delete any posts where I've broken the NDA, because I don't think I did. Everything I'm talking about has been outlined by Yoshi-P in detail over his various letters, interviews, videos and translated Q&A's.

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 2:05pm by Killua125
#67 Apr 16 2013 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
I'm not baiting anyone. I can only discuss the huge amount of information provided by Yoshi-P.

Regardless of how much content is released, it's fair to say that the basic architecture of the game isn't going to change, right?

Combat doesn't change when you get to a new area, and neither will the themepark game design of shuffling between quest marker to quest marker.

Do you really find it that hard to believe that I wouldn't like that, when over a dozen new MMORPGs using that design come out and flop each year?


Um, if only 20% of the content has been released, how can you make any kind of assumption as to what the other 80% will be with any kind of certainty? The answer is, you cannot. Until you play it, you have no idea other than the 1-2 paragraph blurbs that have been released about it.

And actually, the basic architecture of combat could change pretty significantly between now and launch, and it has been stated that it WILL change considerably. Not to mention, combat and questing are not the only aspects of the game. They are parts of the game, and if they share similarities to WoW, so be it. They also share similarities to a bunch of other MMO's NOT named WoW. I'm still waiting to be overwhelmed by all this information confirming that ARR is a WoW clone. Care to provide some links?


Have you played many betas?

Imagine you are in charge of this game and there are deadlines (no matter what they say there are always deadlines) and you implement a new battle system now, imagine its worse or causes huge bugs or other massive delays for the programmers in other areas. They never change core features of an MMO from beta to release, they will probably tweak it but they won't make huge changes now. Only way huge changes would happen is if they stopped betas and went back to full development. Betas are all about tweaking and cutting off rough edges, they aren't going to do anything major now.
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#68 Apr 16 2013 at 12:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
I'm not baiting anyone. I can only discuss the huge amount of information provided by Yoshi-P.

Regardless of how much content is released, it's fair to say that the basic architecture of the game isn't going to change, right?

Combat doesn't change when you get to a new area, and neither will the themepark game design of shuffling between quest marker to quest marker.

Do you really find it that hard to believe that I wouldn't like that, when over a dozen new MMORPGs using that design come out and flop each year?


Um, if only 20% of the content has been released, how can you make any kind of assumption as to what the other 80% will be with any kind of certainty? The answer is, you cannot. Until you play it, you have no idea other than the 1-2 paragraph blurbs that have been released about it.

And actually, the basic architecture of combat could change pretty significantly between now and launch, and it has been stated that it WILL change considerably. Not to mention, combat and questing are not the only aspects of the game. They are parts of the game, and if they share similarities to WoW, so be it. They also share similarities to a bunch of other MMO's NOT named WoW. I'm still waiting to be overwhelmed by all this information confirming that ARR is a WoW clone. Care to provide some links?


I'm not talking about updates. I used the combat example like this: if you go from one area to the next, a game's combat isn't going to change entirely. The game isn't going to change from a themepark to a sandbox MMO by going to an unreleased area.

It's just a quest marker tedious fetch quest-fest. Deliver an item to some random lady. Go kill 10 critters. Go back to the lady. Give her the critter furs. Go back to the guy who sent you to her. Over and over. That's how these themepark quest games work. This is Yoshi-P's "vision".

If you want information on how the game works, go over the Q&As, producer letters, screenshots, Live Letters, interviews, etc...

Wint wrote:
Since you don't have access to the beta you don't know that. And if you do have access and are making these comments, I guess you're divulging NDA'd info and I'm going to have to ban you. Which is it?


To clarify, I don't know if the game's whole architecture is going to change if you move to a new area. I base that assumption on every other game I've ever played. You can ban me if you need to, but I would rather you just delete any posts where I've broken the NDA, because I don't think I did. Everything I'm talking about has been outlined by Yoshi-P in detail over his various letters, interviews, videos and translated Q&A's.

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 2:05pm by Killua125


I never said you did break the NDA, you can either admit that you don't know what the game looks like right now (Yoshi hasn't released a ton of info regarding where things are with phase 2 and every time someone asks you for a link you don't deliver), or you are in the beta and are disclosing information that isn't released yet.
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#69 Apr 16 2013 at 12:25 PM Rating: Default
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I don't know what the game looks like right now, nor do I really care - people can volunteer and squash bugs. I think I'll have a more enjoyable time with the full product. I'm sure the game is in a very incomplete state during testing, but from everything we've been told and shown, "complete" will be an on rails quest marker to quest marker system.

I made this thread because people are tired of that system. Star Wars couldn't even make people want it. People argue that it wasn't the World of Warcraft stuff that made SWTOR bad. Then what about all the other hundreds of themepark quest MMORPGs which have flopped?

I just think people are sick of it. That's all I'm saying. You don't need to be testing to know about how questing will work in this game.

It's all been outlined. I'm not linking that information because it would take me forever to sort through all the tons of letters and videos and interviews by Yoshi-P.

The topic shifted to zones... again, public information. The constant zones and black loading screens are all over their multiple official YouTube page videos.

Talking about the quest system Yoshi-P is using in his game is much different than talking about testing stuff like lag or glitches. It's just public information stuff about ARR.

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 2:28pm by Killua125
#70 Apr 16 2013 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
I often wonder why you guys reply to these guys, they're obviously baiting you Smiley: smile


I won't get to 10k posts by NOT replying, will I? WILL I???
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#71 Apr 16 2013 at 12:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Killua125 wrote:

I made this thread because people are tired of that system. Star Wars couldn't even make people want it. People argue that it wasn't the World of Warcraft stuff that made SWTOR bad. Then what about all the other hundreds of themepark quest MMORPGs which have flopped?


People? Which people? I never played any other WoW clones for long, so I'm excited for it. I loved SWTOR (until there was nothing left to do but re-roll). It didn't fail because of it's wow-ness, it failed for MANY, MANY other reasons.

So you're tired of it. Thank god you don't have to play it. There's 10+ other mmos coming out, plus the ones already in existence. That really shoudl be the end of the discussion, no? "I don't like wow, will I like this?" No. No you won't. Goodnight.

ADD:

And I do love zones. Loading screens for zones tell you where you are, tell other people where you are, and break up the scenes and areas. They are less overwhelming in the scope of an MMO, and allow for every specific themes in a smaller space. I love Skyrim, but can you honestly tell me you love walking to every quest marker, through the mountains, and over that river to the forest? No, you're gonna fast travel like everyone else, because you want it now, not later. BOOM. Immersion BROKEN!

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 2:35pm by Louiscool
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#72Killua125, Posted: Apr 16 2013 at 12:33 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) That should tell you something. Smiley: nod
#73 Apr 16 2013 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
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I think I see the problem. And this happens on the Internet all the time.

Killua is speaking on behalf of a silent majority of people who agree with him.

Here's the problem with this, and it's always the problem with this. You can't speak you authority on behalf of other people when you haven't been empowered by those people to do that. You aren't a spokesman for the gamer population of Earth. You never will be. So don't pretend you represent the position of "the people."

You may speak with authority on your own opinions. You can say things like "I don't want another theme park MMO" and be perfectly fine, because you're only talking about yourself and your own opinions and your own desires. Assuming you don't suffer from some kind of multiple personality disorder, we can reasonably assume that you know yourself pretty well. But when you invoke "people" in your argument, you fall right off that wagon. Now you're trying to speak as the representative of a huge group that probably doesn't agree with each other, let alone you.

Don't try to speak for people unless you've been asked to do that. You will always be wrong.
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#74 Apr 16 2013 at 12:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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He's being contrarian. "If I say the opposite, people will argue with me!"
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#75 Apr 16 2013 at 12:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Killua125 wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
People? Which people? I never played any other WoW clones for long, so I'm excited for it.


That should tell you something. Smiley: nod


Yes, it tell me that Rift was bland and uninteresting. It tells me that SWTOR got repetitive even though I wanted to experience all the storylines, I couldn't bear to do that same series of normal filler quests again, and it tells me that neither had a good endgame, and that the random loot was a bit bland versus FFXI (and 14)s unique loot. Lastly, it also tells me I prefer the FF universe, because I always went back to XI, but wish it had the mechanics and casualness of WoW.
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#76Killua125, Posted: Apr 16 2013 at 12:45 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm not trying to be a representative of the people - I'm talking about sales numbers. We're talking about hundreds of World of Warcraft clone flops.
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