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Thought about SWTOR vs ARRFollow

#102 Apr 16 2013 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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Hate to say it, but welcome to the club of people who only like MMOs in theory. My advice: there isn't an MMO worth your time and there won't be one for quite a while. They're still a young form of media and they have a lot of growing up to do. Rather than clinging to hope that you'll find one that finally did it right, might I suggest some fresh air, and living a real life?

Not even saying that to be snarky. I just think you're going to be disappointed in MMOs for a long time coming, and you might find more fulfillment in other types of games. Maybe D&D, or Munchkin or something. If there's a good LARP group in the area, you could check them out (though most of them are about thirty years behind the times and make MMO gameplay look like cream cheese frosting). There's some wildly popular strategy board game right now that I forget the name of... was thinking of looking into that myself. Or look more at standard video games with co op modes. Point being, if you want to play games with other people, MMORPGs are going to be providing a pretty stale experience for the foreseeable future. Maybe in a few years one will break the mould.
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#103Killua125, Posted: Apr 16 2013 at 3:17 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Pretty much what I do for now. Not a whole lot of interest in traditional/board games and LARP.
#104 Apr 16 2013 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
You seem to think I'm in favor of abolishing quests altogether. It's the handholding quest system which leads you from marker to marker in a predetermined fashion by the developer that I'm not in favor of.

I absolutely love side quests, especially if they're cool and interesting. Running back and forth and back and forth fetching things and kill/come back quests is not enjoyable for me.

You've honestly never heard of any negativity towards those systems?

Quote:
"Oh man all these quests are getting in my way of walking around the world!"


Well, actually... that is kinda the issue. The predetermined quest chain/themepark is set up for you in such a way that you're penalized if you stray from it.

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 3:17pm by Killua125


While I understand what you are saying, Yoshi-P has also stated several times that this game is geared towards casual players, more specificaly the level progression part. So while I understand its not what you want. It is made for the casual player and those who are new to an MMO. t holds your hand through level progression and to dungeons (like the manor) where you learn party mechanics.It is not geared towards skilled already seasoned players (level progression wise.) Atleast this is what I take away from the interviews.. My two cents

Edit: Would also like to add that this form of questing is a way to introduce the cities and outer regions to players. Also we have t keep in mind that we dont know if the initial quests will be repeatable or if their is only one round of quests to get your first class or two to max then after, maybe questing changes.. Less hand holding.. Who knows.. we have incomplete informaion.

Edited, Apr 16th 2013 5:34pm by SaitoMishima
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#105 Apr 16 2013 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
I'm not disputing the fact that you'll be able to just run outside and kill monsters in ARR, the question is whether or not alternative options will really be viable compared to the fetch quest chains which the new build of the game appears to revolve around.


No it doesn't. I have not seen one thing to support your idea that the game revolves around fetch quest chains. Show me where that specifically was said, or admit that it's once again just an assumption you've made for whatever reason.
#106 Apr 16 2013 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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You should keep an open mind about other types of games. They can be a lot of fun--often much more so than video games. An initial lack of interest is one of the most common reasons that people fail to discover something they would otherwise really love, if only they tried it. I didn't try brussel sprouts until I was 30 because I didn't think I'd like them. What a mistake that turned out to be.

That aside, I feel your pain.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#107 Apr 16 2013 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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preludes wrote:
GDLYL wrote:
preludes wrote:
SWTOR failed for the exact same reason FFXIV ARR will fail, they spent too much money on a game that will never attract millions of players.

SWTOR would of been quite successful if it would of had a normal budget of around 50m, it just can't make the money back because it spent way too much on development. FFXIV ARR spent about the same if not more, so yeah it's not going to go well.


Hindsight is supposed to be 20/20, because after you've gathered all the facts, you can see the big picture. This is what you come up with? I really wish you would have posted something more intelligent. Strange as it may be, I do love hearing a really good differing opinion. I know you post those things with the intent of getting some White Knight to run to the game's defense. It detracts from it. That aside, I have some thoughts.

Hindsight being a wonderful thing, I've learned from FFXI, that an MMO doesn't need millions of subscribers to be profitable. What do you think they spent the money on exactly? You seem to have a wonderful imagination, you should make some more assumptions. I don't care for Star Wars, but I did hear they had quality voice acting/story. Maybe some of the money went there. I've also heard that they lacked things to do at the end game stage. That leaves me wondering what else could have taken up all those development resources. You seem to know though.

There has never been a company that took a failed MMO and rebuilt it from the ground up. Even you can see that as a huge financial risk. We all love to talk ourselves up and profess/imply that we know what's best, or what would, and wouldn't work. Running with that train of thought, would you take that risk? If yes, how would you feel about failing? Have you ever failed at something? If yes, when you try again, do you try twice as hard? Three times? How hard? The most beautiful thing about ARR, is its "people" inspired development. There is no "stick up the ***" person doing whatever he wants. I'm more worried about Final Fantasy XV, than I am ARR. At least Yoshi knows what not to do, and shows interest in what the majority wants.

If ARR fails, it wont be for the reason you stated. It seems like everyone is aware how badly ARR's failure is going affect SE, but never factor how that impacts the way they handle it. For some reason, people like you think that the company's just going to sit on their ***, and just go down without a fight. You over simplify everything. I can see it now, "ARR fails because fans found out that it spent too much money in development." Genius right?

If this were a new dev team trying to making it, I'd be less optimistic. Luckily, some people can afford mistakes, while other's can't. It's also fortunate enough to carry the "Final Fantasy" name, mostly likely the only reason they might pull this off. The only thing ARR needs to be successful, is to be a fun game that people actually want to play. No one is going to ignore it just because it had a bad launch, while every review site is saying how great it is. Obviously, if the reviews are bad, they wont come back. That pretty much makes their path forward very clear. If they put more than 50 million or more into the right areas of development, that just might be what they need to attract people. Seeing as we have no idea what they're developing in great detail, I'm going to assume your negativity is a personal issue, not a logical one.

Try and recall how the name "Final Fantasy" came to be. If failure means the end of the company (Which I hope it does Smiley: smile), that might give them good incentive to stop all the bad ideas they've been spending money on for the past decade. Perhaps snap them out of this complacency "we" enabled. I do hope they pull out all the stops, so they don't fail again. That's what I would do. They even asked fans for input, which never would have happened without the failure. (I hope interacting with fans continues) If it fails again, maybe it's time to move on.

P.S.

I miss early 1.0 days when the negativity had real merit. It was an anti SE field day! White Knights were slaughtered daily!


FFXI cost 16-24 million to create and launched at a time when expectations for updates were low, customer service expectations were low and when they could grab a large number of MMO virgins, same thing wow did. It's a lot easier to hold onto those kind of MMO players as opposed to MMO players today that have higher standards and a lot of MMO experience.

FFXI cost 16-24 million to create and took a few years to make that back.
SWTOR cost 250 million + and last I read still hasn't made that money back yet.
FFXIV cost probably around 150 million at the very least, given a double development cycle and a huge amount of well paid people working on it.

Here comes the intelligent part. If a game cost 16 million you can easily have less players and make a lot of money from it, but the more the development costs the more players you need which explains why you need millions of players to recoupe 150-200 million. Main reason for this shockingly because 150million is more than 16 million.

When all these games have the same box and sub price it's a heck of a lot easier to make back 16 million (which took a few years according to a SE article) as opposed to hundreds of millions. The huge cost of FFXIV and the fact that it will never attract millions of players means they will have to add a cash shop to even recover the development costs.



Edited, Apr 16th 2013 1:39pm by preludes



I actually tried searching for the initial development costs for FFXI and FFXIV before I typed that, and couldn't find it. Do me a favor, and link me your sources. I actually don't doubt your Star wars cost. However, your "probably" 150 million....I'd be interested to see that as well. What you responded with "sounded" great and all, but all you did was throw numbers around. I see your point, and you'd think that with 250 million, you would actually have enough content for people to enjoy. For a game to spend 250 million, and not have anything to do end game, is truly a poor allocation of money. Which is what people who have played the game seemed to mirror in countless posts. I'd say there's a a great difference in poor allocation, and total finances invested. In an ideal situation, a larger budget gives you more flexibility. Ergo, ARR being remade from the ground up, seeing as they have the resources to do so. A lesser (financially) company would have simply just scraped it.

I'm also very interested in how you're so certain about the subscribers ARR's going to retain. The safest assumption a person can make is, "it won't get WoW numbers." While we can draw "intelligent" inferences to come up with conclusions, it only makes sense after you've factored in everything. You still over simplify. 250 million dollars is a lot of money. Yet, you don't have the specifics on where they should have put more effort in. Star Wars shouldn't have failed, and they failed for the worst reason. Having nothing to do at the end game is careless. Seeing as people enjoyed the game till they had nothing else left to do. They made the mistake someone with a limited budget would. Your initial post actually suggested limiting that budget. You would put in less money, giving them less freedom. You truly believe this to be the best course of action?

Let's say you're spot on with 150 million. That is a huge gamble, yes. Do you care to explain why you think SE would poorly spend that amount of cash, simply to just let their flag ship flop a 2nd time? This is assuming that once they failed, they tried to fix what they did wrong last time. While I've always understood where you were going, your points are overshadowed by your lack of interest in ARR. Spending too much money, and not having people interested would obviously make it harder to earn it back. However, you supplied no real valuable information as to why no one would be interested in it. Only made it clear that you aren't a fan. Just sounds shallow.

Let's take Elder Scrolls Online as an example. I'm pretty sure that game will have a large budget. I don't like that series. I'm not interested. Yet, I'm not blinded by it enough to ignore that they have an extremely large fan base. The idea of people enjoying the feeling of their favorite RPG with others on a global scale? Wonderful. They have no excuse to botch this up. I actually hope they spend enough money making it fun for people. Looking at all the failed MMOs, they can actually use their financial/fanbase advantage to deliver. The failure of ESO would have nothing to do with how much money they spent, and even you know that. I do hope they put the money in the right places.
#108 Apr 16 2013 at 3:57 PM Rating: Decent
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The budget for XIV was probably pretty steep considering that even before 1.0 they had built and scrapped part of the game on the Crystal Tools engine. 150 might be a bit high, but for a game that has recouped very little money and has been in development for bordering on probably a decade, I wouldn't be surprised if it's at least close to the $100 million mark.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#109 Apr 16 2013 at 4:05 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
The budget for XIV was probably pretty steep considering that even before 1.0 they had built and scrapped part of the game on the Crystal Tools engine. 150 might be a bit high, but for a game that has recouped very little money and has been in development for bordering on probably a decade, I wouldn't be surprised if it's at least close to the $100 million mark.


Yep, I don't doubt that. Yet, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone say, "1.0 failed because they spent too much money." Oh my, every time I think about why 1.0 failed, it makes me upset.
#110 Apr 16 2013 at 4:13 PM Rating: Decent
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I wonder how much money was spent on FFXIV 1.0 and ARR combined versus how much money they can possibly make from it.

Smiley: bah That could have fed a bunch of starving kids!
#111 Apr 16 2013 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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I'm confused Killua. Which is it you want? Sandbox or Themepark?
Sandbox is a game where they provided zones and tools with little to no direction on how you play the game. Open world pvp is sandbox, pve monster grinding is sandbox, 1.0 ffxiv class system is sandbox(Which many people complained about), apb is sandbox for the most parts and people complain about no directed progression.

I prefer a themepark with so many rides and alternate paths(directions)that it creates the illusion of sandbox. Final Fantasy is and always has been an on the rails themepark. Their offline games have alot of rides while XI didn't have so many rides. But the few rides it have, it did them well(if you didn't mind how long everything took to accomplish). If you like a themepark with so many rides it creates the illusions of a sandbox. Then FFXIV is the final fantasy for you. This will be the Final Fantasy with the most rides ever created!!

Some people may complain that alot of the rides are shorter than they were in XI. Some people may complain that the rides look really similar to other rides in other mmos. How many themeparks have you been to where every ride was completely unique and original? None? The difference is usually set by the themes the ride displays, the colors, and the sounds. But underneath the surface most rides are an iteration of something that came before it.

I used to be hardheaded about not wanting my hand held. You spoke of handholding or breadcrumbs during quests. Now I do not like the level that Fable does this. But as the worlds become more huge, the quests become more numerous, and so many activities run their course. The need for more direction grows. Imagine navigating New York City with no signs, no gps, no phone, or people to ask how to locate something. Could you find a single person out of millions with nothing but your intuition?
In the context of a videogame, when that happens people look to the internet... That's bad news bears when you have to do that for every little thing you need.

Single player rpgs are way more smaller and limited in scope. Mmos over the course of years become an altered beast. Remember this if nothing else through these barrage of texts. Even if every mmo closely resembled each other in every aspect. The universe the game is set in is the one thing that seperates this game from that game. From that point all that matters to the player is what universe his/her game is set in.
#112 Apr 16 2013 at 9:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Can't we just agree to ignore this guys trolling?
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#113 Apr 16 2013 at 10:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Can't we just agree to ignore this guys trolling?


Yep, just hover over his name and hit "Ignore".
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#114 Apr 16 2013 at 10:44 PM Rating: Good
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Aside from his end of days POV. He brings up some interesting things. Plus, if I chose to respond to him, it encourages me to respond thoughtfully. The world is more interesting with killua125 lol..
#115 Apr 17 2013 at 1:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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GDLYL wrote:
I actually tried searching for the initial development costs for FFXI and FFXIV before I typed that, and couldn't find it. Do me a favor, and link me your sources. I actually don't doubt your Star wars cost. However, your "probably" 150 million....I'd be interested to see that as well. What you responded with "sounded" great and all, but all you did was throw numbers around. I see your point, and you'd think that with 250 million, you would actually have enough content for people to enjoy. For a game to spend 250 million, and not have anything to do end game, is truly a poor allocation of money. Which is what people who have played the game seemed to mirror in countless posts. I'd say there's a a great difference in poor allocation, and total finances invested. In an ideal situation, a larger budget gives you more flexibility. Ergo, ARR being remade from the ground up, seeing as they have the resources to do so. A lesser (financially) company would have simply just scraped it.

I'm also very interested in how you're so certain about the subscribers ARR's going to retain. The safest assumption a person can make is, "it won't get WoW numbers." While we can draw "intelligent" inferences to come up with conclusions, it only makes sense after you've factored in everything. You still over simplify. 250 million dollars is a lot of money. Yet, you don't have the specifics on where they should have put more effort in. Star Wars shouldn't have failed, and they failed for the worst reason. Having nothing to do at the end game is careless. Seeing as people enjoyed the game till they had nothing else left to do. They made the mistake someone with a limited budget would. Your initial post actually suggested limiting that budget. You would put in less money, giving them less freedom. You truly believe this to be the best course of action?

Let's say you're spot on with 150 million. That is a huge gamble, yes. Do you care to explain why you think SE would poorly spend that amount of cash, simply to just let their flag ship flop a 2nd time? This is assuming that once they failed, they tried to fix what they did wrong last time. While I've always understood where you were going, your points are overshadowed by your lack of interest in ARR. Spending too much money, and not having people interested would obviously make it harder to earn it back. However, you supplied no real valuable information as to why no one would be interested in it. Only made it clear that you aren't a fan. Just sounds shallow.

Let's take Elder Scrolls Online as an example. I'm pretty sure that game will have a large budget. I don't like that series. I'm not interested. Yet, I'm not blinded by it enough to ignore that they have an extremely large fan base. The idea of people enjoying the feeling of their favorite RPG with others on a global scale? Wonderful. They have no excuse to botch this up. I actually hope they spend enough money making it fun for people. Looking at all the failed MMOs, they can actually use their financial/fanbase advantage to deliver. The failure of ESO would have nothing to do with how much money they spent, and even you know that. I do hope they put the money in the right places.


Quote:
The development of Final Fantasy XI and the PlayOnline network service that power's Square's upcoming PlayStation 2 online RPG cost between 2 and 3 billion yen ($16-24 million), Square president Yoichi Wada confirmed today in an interview with the Mainichi Shimbun. It will take four to five years to determine the success or failure of the venture, he said, since the business plan behind the game relies on long-term profits from monthly fees.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_XI

They spent $16-24 million and it took them years to make that back with 300-500k subscribers (which is very high sub numbers for any mmo btw so going into the millions is a major accomplishment very few every achieve), this is buying the boxed game and subscribing. If it took them years to make back the small FFXI development costs how can they ever make back $100-150m from the same subscription system without having millions of players? Answer is that you simply can't do it and no amount of working out the numbers will prove otherwise (keep in mind these games have quite large running costs too), which begs the question...why are they spending vast amounts of money to relaunch an already failed/bad rep MMO that has little chance to succeed again?

Answer is very probably the same as it was when they launched the game, cash shops and abusing the loyalty of their fans to make them spend vastly more than they would with a simple subscription. So they are banking on milking their fans wallets basically, there is no other way this game would of got the go ahead to be rebuilt and no other reason they would continue with it when the company is in such a bad financial position.

http://www.develop-online.net/news/33514/Final-Fantasy-XIV-a-serious-WoW-rival-says-Wada

Quote:
Wada went on to outline the subscription and microtransaction models that FFXIV will employ, adding the company is looking to improve on the Final Fantasy XI system.

“The basic model hasn't changed,” he said. “It's a monthly flat rate service with additional charges for items that users want to buy.

“For FFXI we didn't initially set up the item transaction model that well – although the demand for it was high. We thought that it would be a benefit for users, but that we wouldn't be able to charge.

“We soon learnt that there are a lot of people who want that kind of model, so we would like to introduce more pay-as-you-use items into the game. But there were too few items in FFXI – however we don't want to take it to the other extreme entirely for FFXIV.


A subscription game costing vast amounts of money will not make back the money spent unless it gets wow subscriber numbers, this game isn't anywhere near popular enough (interest is low in it), doesn't have system requirements low enough to attract vast numbers and bluntly isn't good enough as an MMO. It's not going to happen and pretty much everyone knows this, including Square. So it's going to basically fail and have to do what Square are already planning to do, go free to play (or keep a sub for extra greed) and add a extensive cash shop to get as much money as possible from the FF fanbase.

An MMO with a cash shop with RNG gambling items, cosmetics cash shop upgrade items make vast amounts of money from an invested and loyal playerbase (this is why a FF based MMO is perfect for a cash shop, the ff brand has a very loyal base to milk) and that is I think why the game has so much support from the company and why they are spending so much money on a game that under the current system will never make it back. It's not hard to see because they have given major hints in interviews.

If they aren't going to do this then they will never make the money it cost back and indeed I doubt they will be even able to continually update the game with a full development team so yes it will be a 100% failure like SWTOR that could ruin the company, unless as stated this current P2P phase is a rouse to appease fans till they get addicted to the game and have a plan in place to make money from micro transactions 6 months later (Yoshi recently stated a new cosmetic tab is coming...6 months after launch!). Launching with a cash shop would cause a riot, waiting till they are addicted and then adding it will work just fine.

Edited, Apr 17th 2013 3:15am by preludes

Edited, Apr 17th 2013 4:59am by preludes
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#116 Apr 17 2013 at 1:35 AM Rating: Good
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Lol, I can't help but respect what you just said. It's very cynical, but not completely impossible. Though people do have a penchant for being sheep, I wonder how many people would continue to be fans after a stunt like that? It would go against everything they stated before/during the reboot process. I most eagerly await the outcome. I must confess, that I'm counting on it's success for an extra hobby. I do enjoy watching things unfold. I appreciate your candor, sir.
#117 Apr 17 2013 at 3:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Star Wars: The Old Republic and A Realm Reborn both have/had the same goals.

Take the World of Warcraft formula and apply the symbols and feel of a beloved franchise.

Star Wars: The Old Republic failed. How will A Realm Reborn be able to do any differently?

Both are theme park, "playing it safe", formulaic MMORPGs. SWTOR took the formula and added jedi, lightsabers, sith, etc. while ARR took the formula and added chocobos, jobs, moogles, etc.

Now, how will ARR succeed where SWTOR failed, when the Star Wars fandom is much larger than the Final Fantasy fandom?


Killia125 is just trying to get some interesting opinions from everyone. The question is valid so maybe we shouldn't be so quick to rate him down..
My response:
#1: ARR is different because it's global. Final Fantasy is loved by people from every advanced continent. Star Wars was something people watched, whereas FF is something people experienced (and lived through so to speak) during their youth. I love Star Wars (yes, even episode 1), but FF has a place in my heart that only Chrono Trigger may rival.

#2: I'm not in {NDA}, but from I know, the FF franchise has 13+1(tactics ( maybe even more )) games/stories to draw from. Results may vary.

#3: I think you're making an assumption here based on living in the US. Yes, more people I know are aware of SW than FF, however; more FF fans are aware of ARR than SW fans I know of TOR. In other words, FF fans are gamers, SW fans are movie lovers. Two different genres, two different mediums. Ya dig?


Edited, Apr 17th 2013 5:09am by Transmigration
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#118 Apr 17 2013 at 6:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Where was the link saying it cost $150 million for XIV?
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#119 Apr 17 2013 at 7:08 AM Rating: Good
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preludes wrote:
They spent $16-24 million and it took them years to make that back with 300-500k subscribers (which is very high sub numbers for any mmo btw so going into the millions is a major accomplishment very few every achieve), this is buying the boxed game and subscribing. If it took them years to make back the small FFXI development costs how can they ever make back $100-150m from the same subscription system without having millions of players?


Uh, what? Assuming 300k box sales (which is a crazy lowball estimate), that alone is $12 million dollars. 300k subs a month at $15/account is 4.5 million dollars. So after 4 months, the game had made at a minimum $25.5 million (including a free trial month). So no, it didn't take them "years to make that back". It took them 4 months. Even if they only had 150k subs, it took at most 6-8 months for them to recoup all dev cost.

I agree that FFXIV will take far longer to recoup, and I think they are hoping to get more subs than FFXI, but that could prove to be difficult with the much more competitive mmo market.
#120 Apr 17 2013 at 7:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Killua125 wrote:
I wonder how much money was spent on FFXIV 1.0 and ARR combined versus how much money they can possibly make from it.

Smiley: bah That could have fed a bunch of starving kids!


That money would be much better spent preventing adults from creating children they cannot\will not support.

Quote:
You seem to think I'm in favor of abolishing quests altogether. It's the handholding quest system which leads you from marker to

marker in a predetermined fashion by the developer that I'm not in favor of.


What's interesting is that you seem to think this is something that was created by WoW. In fact, I'd argue that it's more of a Final Fantasy creation from years long since passed. I remember playing the very first Final Fantasy games and literally, you would start out in a town, learn about a bad guy, and then start making your way through the game which led you from town to town as monsters got progressively harder and the storyline unfolded. WoW didn't come up with that. In fact, Warcraft games had nothing at all to do with that. They just copied things they liked from popular games and put it online.

FFXI also had a very linear leveling up progression path. You started outside your city, then you went to the dunes, then you went to the jungles, etc. There wasn't this free-form exploration you seem to crave, because in some areas the mobs will hand you your ***. You have to get stronger before you can explore advanced areas.

The kind of open-world exploration you are talking about really only lends itself well to offline, single-player games like Elder Scrolls. Dungeons level with you so the experience is always tailored to your individual character. That's not possible in a game where there's thousands of other players alongside you. Really, it sounds like what you want is an offline game. There's plenty of those.
#121 Apr 22 2013 at 9:33 AM Rating: Default
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Guys, why do you say SWTOR failed? An expansion just came out and even if its f2p alot of ppl are playing it. It looks like it's doing pretty good to me...
#122 Apr 22 2013 at 11:46 AM Rating: Good
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Egolego wrote:
Guys, why do you say SWTOR failed? An expansion just came out and even if its f2p alot of ppl are playing it. It looks like it's doing pretty good to me...


People have a lot of different definitions of failure for an MMO. It's like trying to get people to agree on pizza toppings.
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#123 Apr 22 2013 at 11:55 AM Rating: Default
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With out reading a single thing on this thread I want to say very simply but concisely: Why don't you just play it before jumping to conclusions....
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#124 Apr 22 2013 at 12:01 PM Rating: Decent
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The game may be successful now, but by the standards of the company releasing it SWTOR failed to reach its goals. For sales, for subscriptions, etc. We didn't say it failed, the developer did. They've done a good job turning it around as a F2P game, but we're not arbitrarily calling it a failed MMO for no good reason.
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#125 Apr 22 2013 at 12:12 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
The game may be successful now, but by the standards of the company releasing it SWTOR failed to reach its goals. For sales, for subscriptions, etc. We didn't say it failed, the developer did. They've done a good job turning it around as a F2P game, but we're not arbitrarily calling it a failed MMO for no good reason.


As a personal opinion i would go ahead and say i believe they also failed with the F2P model because its the most annoying one i've seen. >_<
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#126 Apr 22 2013 at 12:14 PM Rating: Default
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Wint wrote:
I want to put my fist through my monitor when people use the phrase "break my immersion". It's such a bullsh*t excuse to ***** about things done in the game.


Wow and you are an admin? Fu@@ this site, way to be no better then a troll. It's his thoughts on it and mine as well. I've seen a few of these posts from you and it's horse&&&& of a response from an admin..... Seriously....
#127 Apr 22 2013 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, how dare an admin have an opinion of their own!
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#128 Apr 22 2013 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Yeah, how dare an admin have an opinion of their own!


It has nothing to do with an opinion and you know it. If killua wrote that he would be slammed for it. To say something is bullshi@ like that when its how a person feels about a game is bullshi@ coming from an admin. This isn't BG's forum....

Edit: mind u I disagree with 99% of what killua writes and really could care less for him... But saying that is extremely unproffesional. My 2 cents. Laugh it off whatever, but I will be contacting the site about this. ( in b4 removal of thread and banned account)

Edited, Apr 22nd 2013 2:32pm by RIDDER
#129 Apr 22 2013 at 12:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Went ahead and PM'd your complaint to Kaolian, he's the forum manager.
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#130 Apr 22 2013 at 1:03 PM Rating: Decent
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RIDDER wrote:
Laugh it off whatever, but I will be contacting the site about this. ( in b4 removal of thread and banned account)
If your little genital secretion of a complaint was enough to warrant a conspiracy theory level ban I'd have 36,000 less posts.
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#131 Apr 22 2013 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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To be fair, Killua agreed with me in the first page but if Kao has a problem with what I've written I'll change it with an apology. Killua and I actually converse a fair bit via PM and I think we have an understanding of where each other is coming from. You adding your Smiley: twocents here is just creating drama that hadn't existed before you got here.

Yes I'm an admin, but I have an opinion and I'm not going to make a sock account so I can express it.
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#132 Apr 22 2013 at 1:11 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
RIDDER wrote:
Laugh it off whatever, but I will be contacting the site about this. ( in b4 removal of thread and banned account)
If your little genital secretion of a complaint was enough to warrant a conspiracy theory level ban I'd have 36,000 less posts.


You are not an admin either. My issue is it came from an admin which I'm sorry is unprofessional for a site like this that is in it for business and to make money.... I really do not want to look up 10 k posts of his to show other examples but this is not the first time such attitude has been given from this admin. And it's all because its from a poster of killua's nature. If it was one of the cool kids it wouldn't be that way guaranteed.

And as stated before I really could care less for killua as I disagree with him almost all the time.
#133 Apr 22 2013 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
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RIDDER wrote:
And it's all because its from a poster of killua's nature
Yes, from a caricature. It's Mr. Hooper arguing with Oscar the Grouch.
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#134 Apr 22 2013 at 1:16 PM Rating: Default
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Wint wrote:
To be fair, Killua agreed with me in the first page but if Kao has a problem with what I've written I'll change it with an apology. Killua and I actually converse a fair bit via PM and I think we have an understanding of where each other is coming from. You adding your Smiley: twocents here is just creating drama that hadn't existed before you got here.

Yes I'm an admin, but I have an opinion and I'm not going to make a sock account so I can express it.


Sock account? How is that? I'm posting at work from an ipad if that is what you are referring to.... And it's also my opinion of immersion that you so eloquently called bulls@@@. I assure you this is not a sock account...... Just my opinion that an admin shouldn't be giving that kind of comment to someone's actual issue with a game when it's a site like zam's.

Would you like my IP address from home as well? I will post when I get home as well.
#135 Apr 22 2013 at 1:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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I wasn't saying you had a sock account, I was talking about me making a second account so I could comment and be able to be rated.

Look a few posts down, I fully admit that my opinion of immersion is probably idiotic and mine alone.

I wrote:
I recognize that my involuntary urges around "immersion" are unusual and most likely idiotic, but I can't help it (it's like when people say gils when referring to multiple gil Smiley: banghead HULKSMASH )


By the way, I did check your IP (since you mentioned it), you do have a second account here, hopefully Kaolian decides to ignore it, he doesn't like it when people do that.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2013 2:20pm by Wint
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#136 Apr 22 2013 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
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RIDDER wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Yeah, how dare an admin have an opinion of their own!


It has nothing to do with an opinion and you know it. If killua wrote that he would be slammed for it. To say something is bullshi@ like that when its how a person feels about a game is bullshi@ coming from an admin. This isn't BG's forum....

Edit: mind u I disagree with 99% of what killua writes and really could care less for him... But saying that is extremely unproffesional. My 2 cents. Laugh it off whatever, but I will be contacting the site about this. ( in b4 removal of thread and banned account)

Edited, Apr 22nd 2013 2:32pm by RIDDER


Yep, what an awful admin. He's clearly not allowed to give his viewpoint at all. And obviously he's going to delete your account because you posted something bad about him... oh wait.

Wint wrote:
Went ahead and PM'd your complaint to Kaolian, he's the forum manager.


What!?! He responded to your complaint, and even forwarded it on for you? It must be a lie, because clearly he has some ulterior motive here, breathes fire, and eats small babies.
#137 Apr 22 2013 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Wint wrote:
I wasn't saying you had a sock account, I was talking about me making a second account so I could comment and be able to be rated.

Look a few posts down, I fully admit that my opinion of immersion is probably idiotic and mine alone.

I wrote:
I recognize that my involuntary urges around "immersion" are unusual and most likely idiotic, but I can't help it (it's like when people say gils when referring to multiple gil Smiley: banghead HULKSMASH )


By the way, I did check your IP (since you mentioned it), you do have a second account here, hopefully Kaolian decides to ignore it, he doesn't like it when people do that.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2013 2:20pm by Wint


Missed the post my apologies as it takes me forever to type on an ipad. And the only way I have 2 accounts is if I forgot info from 1st account and made a new one. So whatever on that.
#138 Apr 22 2013 at 1:29 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
RIDDER wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Yeah, how dare an admin have an opinion of their own!


It has nothing to do with an opinion and you know it. If killua wrote that he would be slammed for it. To say something is bullshi@ like that when its how a person feels about a game is bullshi@ coming from an admin. This isn't BG's forum....

Edit: mind u I disagree with 99% of what killua writes and really could care less for him... But saying that is extremely unproffesional. My 2 cents. Laugh it off whatever, but I will be contacting the site about this. ( in b4 removal of thread and banned account)

Edited, Apr 22nd 2013 2:32pm by RIDDER


Yep, what an awful admin. He's clearly not allowed to give his viewpoint at all. And obviously he's going to delete your account because you posted something bad about him... oh wait.

Wint wrote:
Went ahead and PM'd your complaint to Kaolian, he's the forum manager.


What!?! He responded to your complaint, and even forwarded it on for you? It must be a lie, because clearly he has some ulterior motive here, breathes fire, and eats small babies.


Ok and you didn't understand my issue with his post either....
#139 Apr 22 2013 at 1:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Look, I'm sorry you were offended by what I said about the term immersion and how it applies to MMO's. I really am, I wasn't trying to offend anyone, but I feel as strongly on my side of the argument as you do on yours. Most of the people who are regulars, even those who maybe aren't forum favorites, know me to be a pretty affable person and willing to admit when I have my head up my ***. I wish you would have picked a different way to express your anger, but what's done is done.

Please accept my apologies for the original post, if Kaolian thinks I need to edit it I will but for now I'm going to leave it.
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#140 Apr 22 2013 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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RIDDER wrote:
BartelX wrote:
RIDDER wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Yeah, how dare an admin have an opinion of their own!


It has nothing to do with an opinion and you know it. If killua wrote that he would be slammed for it. To say something is bullshi@ like that when its how a person feels about a game is bullshi@ coming from an admin. This isn't BG's forum....

Edit: mind u I disagree with 99% of what killua writes and really could care less for him... But saying that is extremely unproffesional. My 2 cents. Laugh it off whatever, but I will be contacting the site about this. ( in b4 removal of thread and banned account)

Edited, Apr 22nd 2013 2:32pm by RIDDER


Yep, what an awful admin. He's clearly not allowed to give his viewpoint at all. And obviously he's going to delete your account because you posted something bad about him... oh wait.

Wint wrote:
Went ahead and PM'd your complaint to Kaolian, he's the forum manager.


What!?! He responded to your complaint, and even forwarded it on for you? It must be a lie, because clearly he has some ulterior motive here, breathes fire, and eats small babies.


Ok and you didn't understand my issue with his post either....


I understand it fine. You think, because he gave his point of view how it makes him want to smash his face into the computer when people talk about immersion, that it's a "horse&&&& of a response from an admin." So basically, you think because he's an admin he shouldn't be allowed to post his opinion. Or was it just that he said the word "bullsh*t" and you couldn't handle it because it doesn't go along with your opinion of immersion? Either way, your anger is unfounded and rather childish if you ask me.

#141 Apr 22 2013 at 2:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Look, I'm sorry you were offended by what I said about the term immersion and how it applies to MMO's. I really am, I wasn't trying to offend anyone, but I feel as strongly on my side of the argument as you do on yours. Most of the people who are regulars, even those who maybe aren't forum favorites, know me to be a pretty affable person and willing to admit when I have my head up my ***. I wish you would have picked a different way to express your anger, but what's done is done.

Please accept my apologies for the original post, if Kaolian thinks I need to edit it I will but for now I'm going to leave it.


Wth Wint. You going all serious there totally broke my immersion in this soap opera... Now I no longer believe that you're Kaolian's evil twin.
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#142 Apr 22 2013 at 2:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
bulls@@@.


Was I the only one who read that as "bullsatatat?"
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#143 Apr 22 2013 at 2:24 PM Rating: Good
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I disagree with Wint on his opinion of "immersion" but I don't judge him for voicing his opinion either. When I play MMOs I, and I am speaking to my own tastes here, enjoy the feeling of inhabiting an alternate world. For me, that's a large part of the charm and a large reason why I prefer FFXI over many other MMos I've tried. Square-enix really knows how to create an authenticity that few can achieve. They know how to convey the "scale" of things properly to make the player feel like they are but a small part of this much larger world (as in reality). So in summation, I enjoy the feeling of being "immersed" and it does bother me when things break that immersion such as 2 miles of bunny hopping (boy here comes the flames for that one) or when people use emotes to stand and hump each other or something like that. While that is my opinion, Wint is also entitled to his whether I agree or not.

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#144 Apr 22 2013 at 2:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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electromagnet83 wrote:
I disagree with Wint on his opinion of "immersion" but I don't judge him for voicing his opinion either. When I play MMOs I, and I am speaking to my own tastes here, enjoy the feeling of inhabiting an alternate world. For me, that's a large part of the charm and a large reason why I prefer FFXI over many other MMos I've tried. Square-enix really knows how to create an authenticity that few can achieve. They know how to convey the "scale" of things properly to make the player feel like they are but a small part of this much larger world (as in reality). So in summation, I enjoy the feeling of being "immersed" and it does bother me when things break that immersion such as 2 miles of bunny hopping (boy here comes the flames for that one) or when people use emotes to stand and hump each other or something like that. While that is my opinion, Wint is also entitled to his whether I agree or not.



Immersion or not that crap is annoying as ****. I'd be all for some kind of timer on emotes Smiley: tongue

Edited, Apr 22nd 2013 3:31pm by Wint
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#145 Apr 22 2013 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
annoying as ****
Careful there, rebel. You might hurt someone's feelings.
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#146 Apr 22 2013 at 2:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Personally I think it's ******** when a video game forum holds its moderators and admins to such a standard of professionalism that they aren't allowed to express their opinions. If it were inconsistent with forum policies or even the company's culture, you might have a point, but the reality is that this is what ZAM is and most of the people here LIKE that about it. Wint can say what he wants within those bounds because so can we, and if you don't like what he has to say, you're well within your right to express that.

There are plenty of forums out there that are all too happy to police you for the most trivial of "infractions." If you can't appreciate a forum that welcomes people to speak their mind unless the moderator can't do the same, then you're right. This isn't the place for you.
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#147 Apr 22 2013 at 2:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Personally I think it's bullsh*t when a video game forum holds its moderators and admins to such a standard of professionalism that they aren't allowed to express their opinions. If it were inconsistent with forum policies or even the company's culture, you might have a point, but the reality is that this is what ZAM is and most of the people here LIKE that about it. Wint can say what he wants within those bounds because so can we, and if you don't like what he has to say, you're well within your right to express that.


I like it. It makes Zam admins more like real people and less like corporate sock puppets.

I like that Zam admins are free to express their own points of view, and I like that we're able to express ours to them without fear of reprisal for saying something they don't agree with. Reading other forums I've found that this is actually quite a rare scenario. Let's keep it.
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#148 Apr 22 2013 at 3:02 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Personally I think it's bullsh*t when a video game forum holds its moderators and admins to such a standard of professionalism that they aren't allowed to express their opinions. If it were inconsistent with forum policies or even the company's culture, you might have a point, but the reality is that this is what ZAM is and most of the people here LIKE that about it. Wint can say what he wants within those bounds because so can we, and if you don't like what he has to say, you're well within your right to express that.

There are plenty of forums out there that are all too happy to police you for the most trivial of "infractions." If you can't appreciate a forum that welcomes people to speak their mind unless the moderator can't do the same, then you're right. This isn't the place for you.



Ok well if you are the voice of zam and are the one who pays the bills and brings in advertisements then I humbly apologize... If not well I have my own work to do, to find out who is. Good day sirs/ladies, after I find the info I need I won't visit this site again. Because maybe I'm wrong and this site isn't in the business of making money by bringing in ads and such.

My apologies for offending the cool kids here and expressing my thoughts on how i find it unprofessional that an admin thinks he is just a poster here. But hey, not my site and not my bills to pay.

On topic... Arr will be good enough to survive like SWTOR is, so enjoy.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2013 5:04pm by RIDDER
#149 Apr 22 2013 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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RIDDER wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Personally I think it's bullsh*t when a video game forum holds its moderators and admins to such a standard of professionalism that they aren't allowed to express their opinions. If it were inconsistent with forum policies or even the company's culture, you might have a point, but the reality is that this is what ZAM is and most of the people here LIKE that about it. Wint can say what he wants within those bounds because so can we, and if you don't like what he has to say, you're well within your right to express that.

There are plenty of forums out there that are all too happy to police you for the most trivial of "infractions." If you can't appreciate a forum that welcomes people to speak their mind unless the moderator can't do the same, then you're right. This isn't the place for you.



Ok well if you are the voice of zam and are the one who pays the bills and brings in advertisements then I humbly apologize... If not well I have my own work to do, to find out who is. Good day sirs/ladies, after I find the info I need I won't visit this site again. Because maybe I'm wrong and this site isn't in the business of making money by bringing in ads and such.

My apologies for offending the cool kids here and expressing my thoughts on how i find it unprofessional that an admin thinks he is just a poster here. But hey, not my site and not my bills to pay.

On topic... Arr will be good enough to survive like SWTOR is, so enjoy.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2013 5:04pm by RIDDER


Don't let the door hit your *** on the way out. With your attitude, you really won't be missed.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2013 5:07pm by BartelX
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#150 Apr 22 2013 at 3:14 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
I recognize that my involuntary urges around "immersion" are unusual and most likely idiotic, but I can't help it (it's like when people say gils when referring to multiple gil HULKSMASH Smiley: banghead)

Regarding zone loading times, I don't think they should be long either, but from my experience with my hands on, the zones load fast and are really not a big issue.

Fun fact for you XI players (noticed from my hands on in San Francisco), you can keep typing your message to your friends (Tell, LS, Party, etc) while zoning, the UI doesn't blank out while you're changing areas. It's freaking awesome Smiley: thumbsup



I like "gils" or even 'gilz'. Reminds of something Largo would say in MegaTokyo <.<
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#151 Apr 22 2013 at 3:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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All this arguing about breaking immersion is breaking my immersion. Smiley: frown
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