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Letter From the Producer Live VI RecapFollow

#1 Apr 17 2013 at 11:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/61657



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#2 Apr 17 2013 at 1:04 PM Rating: Default
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OOOooooh man that's some sweet other area lol
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#3 Apr 17 2013 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
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I am soooo excited for the emblem maker for linkshells. Now my side linkshell "Chocoboners" can have a fitting emblem.
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#4 Apr 18 2013 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
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Yoshida 14:21 wrote:
...we have a created a clear path for progression through content and gear.

Some of the worst news I could think of, really. Everything seems very guided and signposted. :\

Yoshida 1:14:02 wrote:
The level design [of dungeons] actually plays a big part in being able to play casually... we would like players to use the duty finder as much as possible...

That most dungeons are specifically designed for auto-grouped "casual" play worries me a lot. On top of the highly structured and tiered nature of content mentioned earlier, it looks like a pretty uninspired, and highly standardized, system.

Yoshida 22:00 wrote:
Weather will have the biggest impact on fishing... Other than that there won't really be any other effects from weather.

Well that's... rather lacklustre, isn't it? But I guess weather effects might risk "inconveniencing" a handful of players, right? Smiley: rolleyes

Yoshida 1:25:11 wrote:
transportation will be as it was in 1.0, so players won't have to wait [on timetables].... If players have to wait just for the chance to participate [in an event on an airship], it might be a big letdown.

Are you serious? What sort of casual audience are you targeting that can't stand even a six minute wait for a boat to dock?

Yoshida 1:35:09 wrote:
...all open-world content will be implemented through the FATE system...

Well, having events is nice, but I think you're certainly missing something about world design to not have things like notorious monsters and rare spawning materials in strange, tucked-away places on the map. You can only "save the village from bandit raids" so many times before it all starts to feel contrived. Allowing players to actually explore, to discover things for themselves, and to just experience something without being guided and blatantly rewarded for taking part in a prefabricated event is essential not only for lasting appeal, but for forging genuine memories.

The game is seeming so structured, so cautious. It's like they're deathly afraid of doing anything that breaks from the predominant conception of a current-generation fantasy-themed MMORPG, so much so that they're going to create the exact kind of humdrum, tried-and-true, play-it-safe title that guarantees a failure in a post-WoW market...
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#5 Apr 18 2013 at 10:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
The game is seeming so structured, so cautious. It's like they're deathly afraid of doing anything that breaks from the predominant conception of a current-generation fantasy-themed MMORPG, so much so that they're going to create the exact kind of humdrum, tried-and-true, play-it-safe title that guarantees a failure in a post-WoW market...


Um, there's a reason it has a lot more structure. 1.0 had almost no structure, and it was awful. Anyone could mix and match any classes, could go wherever they pleased to level, and it was an awful grindfest. I love how you can already make conclusions about ARR though, without even playing it for yourself. If it was Open Beta, and you were saying these things based on actual in-game experience, I think it would make a lot more sense. But you're already basically telling us that it will fail because of the way it's designed, when you have absolutely no clue about it other than reading a few paragraphs about it. You and Killua should form a Doom and Gloom club.
#6 Apr 18 2013 at 10:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
Yoshida 14:21 wrote:
...we have a created a clear path for progression through content and gear.

Some of the worst news I could think of, really. Everything seems very guided and signposted. :\

Yoshida 1:14:02 wrote:
The level design [of dungeons] actually plays a big part in being able to play casually... we would like players to use the duty finder as much as possible...

That most dungeons are specifically designed for auto-grouped "casual" play worries me a lot. On top of the highly structured and tiered nature of content mentioned earlier, it looks like a pretty uninspired, and highly standardized, system.

Yoshida 22:00 wrote:
Weather will have the biggest impact on fishing... Other than that there won't really be any other effects from weather.

Well that's... rather lacklustre, isn't it? But I guess weather effects might risk "inconveniencing" a handful of players, right? Smiley: rolleyes

Yoshida 1:25:11 wrote:
transportation will be as it was in 1.0, so players won't have to wait [on timetables].... If players have to wait just for the chance to participate [in an event on an airship], it might be a big letdown.

Are you serious? What sort of casual audience are you targeting that can't stand even a six minute wait for a boat to dock?

Yoshida 1:35:09 wrote:
...all open-world content will be implemented through the FATE system...

Well, having events is nice, but I think you're certainly missing something about world design to not have things like notorious monsters and rare spawning materials in strange, tucked-away places on the map. You can only "save the village from bandit raids" so many times before it all starts to feel contrived. Allowing players to actually explore, to discover things for themselves, and to just experience something without being guided and blatantly rewarded for taking part in a prefabricated event is essential not only for lasting appeal, but for forging genuine memories.

The game is seeming so structured, so cautious. It's like they're deathly afraid of doing anything that breaks from the predominant conception of a current-generation fantasy-themed MMORPG, so much so that they're going to create the exact kind of humdrum, tried-and-true, play-it-safe title that guarantees a failure in a post-WoW market...


While I don't believe this game will fail and there are elements which excite me, you point out some of the concerns I feel are out of sync with why I loved XI and keep going back to it even after playing a host of other MMOs.
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#7 Apr 18 2013 at 10:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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In regards to the "no timetables for transport" let me explain what the problem is.

In FFXI, there were only a handful of ways to get to the Aht Urghan Whitegate areas. You could have a special item to transport there (Tidal Talisman and Oldum's Ring), you could remember to set your home point there (many people did for many years, since so much endgame content was there), or you could take the boat from Mhaura. Once you were in Whitegate, there were only a few ways to get to Nashmau, where Einherjar was. You could use the Nyzul Isle Staging Point transports, use the Tidal Talisman (it would take your entire party so these things were friggin gold, man), or again, you could take the boat.

Eventually they added in a more efficient way to get to Whitegate from the cities and Jeuno (an NPC warps you for 300 gil) but that still meant you had to get from Whitegate to Nashmau. The boats took 30 minutes. If you did not own a Tidal Talisman or didn't get a lucky slot in the party of someone who did, you were stuck on the boat.

Missed the boat to Nashmau? Wait 30 minutes and delay 17 other people.

Edited, Apr 18th 2013 1:04pm by Catwho
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#8 Apr 18 2013 at 11:02 AM Rating: Decent
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"...all open-world content will be implemented through the FATE system...

Well, having events is nice, but I think you're certainly missing something about world design to not have things like notorious monsters and rare spawning materials in strange, tucked-away places on the map. You can only "save the village from bandit raids" so many times before it all starts to feel contrived. Allowing players to actually explore, to discover things for themselves, and to just experience something without being guided and blatantly rewarded for taking part in a prefabricated event is essential not only for lasting appeal, but for forging genuine memories.

The game is seeming so structured, so cautious. It's like they're deathly afraid of doing anything that breaks from the predominant conception of a current-generation fantasy-themed MMORPG, so much so that they're going to create the exact kind of humdrum, tried-and-true, play-it-safe title that guarantees a failure in a post-WoW market..."


Dont talk about the FATE system being the only open world content... I mean I made a post concerning that same thing and well look what happened there...
#9Ostia, Posted: Apr 18 2013 at 11:17 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) HAHAHAHAHA! I told you Guys!!! Smiley: lol
#10 Apr 18 2013 at 11:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think the casual dungeons are awesome. Huge complaint from XI was finding the perfect party of 6, at least in XIV you only need 4 to complete a dungeon now. Much easier to set up and run through.
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#11 Apr 18 2013 at 12:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
Yoshida 14:21 wrote:
...we have a created a clear path for progression through content and gear.

Some of the worst news I could think of, really. Everything seems very guided and signposted. :\

Yoshida 1:14:02 wrote:
The level design [of dungeons] actually plays a big part in being able to play casually... we would like players to use the duty finder as much as possible...

That most dungeons are specifically designed for auto-grouped "casual" play worries me a lot. On top of the highly structured and tiered nature of content mentioned earlier, it looks like a pretty uninspired, and highly standardized, system.

Yoshida 22:00 wrote:
Weather will have the biggest impact on fishing... Other than that there won't really be any other effects from weather.

Well that's... rather lacklustre, isn't it? But I guess weather effects might risk "inconveniencing" a handful of players, right? Smiley: rolleyes

Yoshida 1:25:11 wrote:
transportation will be as it was in 1.0, so players won't have to wait [on timetables].... If players have to wait just for the chance to participate [in an event on an airship], it might be a big letdown.

Are you serious? What sort of casual audience are you targeting that can't stand even a six minute wait for a boat to dock?

Yoshida 1:35:09 wrote:
...all open-world content will be implemented through the FATE system...

Well, having events is nice, but I think you're certainly missing something about world design to not have things like notorious monsters and rare spawning materials in strange, tucked-away places on the map. You can only "save the village from bandit raids" so many times before it all starts to feel contrived. Allowing players to actually explore, to discover things for themselves, and to just experience something without being guided and blatantly rewarded for taking part in a prefabricated event is essential not only for lasting appeal, but for forging genuine memories.

The game is seeming so structured, so cautious. It's like they're deathly afraid of doing anything that breaks from the predominant conception of a current-generation fantasy-themed MMORPG, so much so that they're going to create the exact kind of humdrum, tried-and-true, play-it-safe title that guarantees a failure in a post-WoW market...


It seems to me you choose to look at these items through a prism of disappointment. I choose not to.

I'm taking "A clear path" to mean that you don't have to guess where to go next. Something that most everyone agrees is a large barrier to entry for FF XI.

Being able to rapidly put together a group of people to go dungeoning is fine in my book. I disliked having my LFG flag up for hours on end personally. It's also nice to be able to be out in the world doing whatever and then get zapped to the dungeon when the group forms. Something I'm sure you'll also dislike due to your opinion on transportation. I also don't think he's comparing "dungeons" to "raids" in this case. I'm sure there will be many opportunities for difficult content.

What other effects do you think weather should have?

I play games like MMO's so that I can play them. I don't want to stand there twiddling my thumbs waiting for 10 minutes for an instanced airship, then waiting 10 more inside it. If I wanted to waste 20 minutes staring at empty space, I can do that for free in my back yard.

FATE is a large umbrella under which open world events will take place. There's still going to be plenty of exploring to do. I don't believe there's ever been any mention of gathering having anything to do with it either. And there will still be all the other things MMO's offer. If you like wasting time camping open world NM's, there's plenty of other games that offer that experience. I personally despised it. (See previous paragraph regarding staring at nothing, only in this case for hours on end.)

Playing it safe now and getting people on board is exactly what they need to do right now. Build a wide base, and then expand upon it later.



Edited, Apr 18th 2013 11:20am by LebargeX
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#12 Apr 18 2013 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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Yoshida 1:14:02 wrote:
The level design [of dungeons] actually plays a big part in being able to play casually... we would like players to use the duty finder as much as possible...
That most dungeons are specifically designed for auto-grouped "casual" play worries me a lot. On top of the highly structured and tiered nature of content mentioned earlier, it looks like a pretty uninspired, and highly standardized, system.

Most dungeons are designed with the duty finder feature in mind. It is only applicable to people who do not care about seeking the perfect player in skill. It's a convienence to alleviate having to shout. Some endgame content will be too difficult for duty finder to be truly viable. Also, you can always not use the feature and only do with guildies.

Yoshida 1:25:11 wrote:
transportation will be as it was in 1.0, so players won't have to wait [on timetables].... If players have to wait just for the chance to participate [in an event on an airship], it might be a big letdown.
Are you serious? What sort of casual audience are you targeting that can't stand even a six minute wait for a boat to dock?

The sort of casuals that would rather participate in content versus waiting to participate in content. Because standing in 10min to 1hr long lines at amusement parks is always fun.

KaneKitty wrote:

Well, having events is nice, but I think you're certainly missing something about world design to not have things like notorious monsters and rare spawning materials in strange, tucked-away places on the map. You can only "save the village from bandit raids" so many times before it all starts to feel contrived. Allowing players to actually explore, to discover things for themselves, and to just experience something without being guided and blatantly rewarded for taking part in a prefabricated event is essential not only for lasting appeal, but for forging genuine memories.


FATE is only a lens filtering the content. Nowhere have I seen it stated that there will not be notorious monsters within the FATE system. Who can say where they have them spawn at? Unless the NM had not had a definite spawn time in XI it was prefabricated. Besieged was prefabricated, campaign was prefabricated. Doing anything many times repeated in any game will grow old. The only difference bewteen XI NM and possibly in XIV. Is you most likely will not be competing against other linkshells to get claim on stuff. Even if the FATE system copied Guild Wars 2 to the tee. XIV has something Guild Wars 2 did not. A ******* PVE endgame.

Now if after the game releases. There are no NM in any shape or form. Then I would start thinking the worse.

#13 Apr 18 2013 at 3:31 PM Rating: Decent
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I echo KaneKitty's impressions. If nothing else, this sort of game system faces them with 2 possibilities:

1) Players will race to the end and have nothing to do. /quit
2) They'll have to tune progression to be incredibly slow. The casual audience won't be patient enough to deal with it. /quit

So most everyone who gives the game a shot will be bored once they get to the end, or bored before they even get that far. The content just isn't going to be there, period. At best, we're looking at a game that manages to hold the same diehard fans that stuck around for 1.0 plus a fraction more, then maybe if the community is good, some people who aren't quite bored of a generic experience and looking for a good community.

If they can continue to support the game even with abysmal numbers, then maybe it will some day be worth playing.

You know what I'd like to see more games try? Periodically launching a new server. I would much rather play a game that had several years of development behind it on a new server. I'd probably play FFXI on a new server over FFXIV on a new server any day of the week. Best of both worlds.
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#14 Apr 18 2013 at 4:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
1) Players will race to the end and have nothing to do. /quit
2) They'll have to tune progression to be incredibly slow. The casual audience won't be patient enough to deal with it. /quit

These are definitely extremes. I've played WoW for quite a few years, and I've definitely noticed its revolving door.

The fact of the matter is that as long as you have something for everyone to do, the likelihood of this isn't as high. ****, people literally logged into XI to sit around and watch the chat window.
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#15 Apr 18 2013 at 4:58 PM Rating: Decent
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as long as you have something for everyone to do


That's the part to be concerned about, honestly.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#16 Apr 18 2013 at 5:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
Yoshida 14:21 wrote:
...we have a created a clear path for progression through content and gear.

Some of the worst news I could think of, really. Everything seems very guided and signposted. :\

Yoshida 1:14:02 wrote:
The level design [of dungeons] actually plays a big part in being able to play casually... we would like players to use the duty finder as much as possible...

That most dungeons are specifically designed for auto-grouped "casual" play worries me a lot. On top of the highly structured and tiered nature of content mentioned earlier, it looks like a pretty uninspired, and highly standardized, system.

Yoshida 22:00 wrote:
Weather will have the biggest impact on fishing... Other than that there won't really be any other effects from weather.

Well that's... rather lacklustre, isn't it? But I guess weather effects might risk "inconveniencing" a handful of players, right? Smiley: rolleyes

Yoshida 1:25:11 wrote:
transportation will be as it was in 1.0, so players won't have to wait [on timetables].... If players have to wait just for the chance to participate [in an event on an airship], it might be a big letdown.

Are you serious? What sort of casual audience are you targeting that can't stand even a six minute wait for a boat to dock?

Yoshida 1:35:09 wrote:
...all open-world content will be implemented through the FATE system...

Well, having events is nice, but I think you're certainly missing something about world design to not have things like notorious monsters and rare spawning materials in strange, tucked-away places on the map. You can only "save the village from bandit raids" so many times before it all starts to feel contrived. Allowing players to actually explore, to discover things for themselves, and to just experience something without being guided and blatantly rewarded for taking part in a prefabricated event is essential not only for lasting appeal, but for forging genuine memories.

The game is seeming so structured, so cautious. It's like they're deathly afraid of doing anything that breaks from the predominant conception of a current-generation fantasy-themed MMORPG, so much so that they're going to create the exact kind of humdrum, tried-and-true, play-it-safe title that guarantees a failure in a post-WoW market...


So I'd like to take those same points and draw entirely different conclusions from them. Just for fun.

Yoshida 14:21 wrote:
...we have a created a clear path for progression through content and gear.

Cool, I really appreciate knowing what's ahead of me and what's behind me. Also the ability to play multiple classes/jobs extends the life of this content. I do hope there's enough of it to last to the first major content patch, but that's not something I can assume either way.

One of my frustrations with FFXI was not knowing what I was capable of doing based on the gear I had. And the massively-horizontal progression system it used ensured that I would be REALLY confused about what I was supposed to do at endgame.

Yoshida 1:14:02 wrote:
The level design [of dungeons] actually plays a big part in being able to play casually... we would like players to use the duty finder as much as possible...

I like that the game will have content that appeals to casual players. There are, after all, FAR more of them then there are people who identify themselves as "hardcore." Also a tool that puts parties together should, at this point, be a standard feature in new MMOs. I mean when you think about it, every other online multiplayer game has automated matchmaking. What took MMOs so long?

As long as there's also raid content for the more serious players to tackle in organized groups, there's no problem here.

Yoshida 22:00 wrote:
Weather will have the biggest impact on fishing... Other than that there won't really be any other effects from weather.

That's fine. They can always expand this in the future if they come up with something cool for weather to do. It's much harder to take out systems that they don't like then it is to add new ones.

Yoshida 1:25:11 wrote:
transportation will be as it was in 1.0, so players won't have to wait [on timetables].... If players have to wait just for the chance to participate [in an event on an airship], it might be a big letdown.

Yes please, getting there is not half the fun, especially when getting somewhere can take upwards of 40+ minutes. I like to explore the world, but not when I have somewhere to be.

Yoshida 1:35:09 wrote:
...all open-world content will be implemented through the FATE system...

This has been covered ad naseum in another thread. Don't read too much into it.
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#17 Apr 18 2013 at 5:21 PM Rating: Decent
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TurboTom wrote:
Kachi wrote:
1) Players will race to the end and have nothing to do. /quit
2) They'll have to tune progression to be incredibly slow. The casual audience won't be patient enough to deal with it. /quit

These are definitely extremes. I've played WoW for quite a few years, and I've definitely noticed its revolving door.

The fact of the matter is that as long as you have something for everyone to do, the likelihood of this isn't as high. ****, people literally logged into XI to sit around and watch the chat window.



All this discussion of whether or not it will fail. What constitutes a fail anyhow? I mean, think about it for a minute. How many MMOs really failed to the point that they ended? Not any major ones I can think of..and if they did shut down they ran for a very long time prior. Does "fail" mean like SWTOR where they come out on a subscription model and shortly switch to F2P? Does Fail mean what happened FFXIV 1.0? Because even then we arrive at 2.0 which, if does okay, means FFXIV was not a failure.

I hope that maybe someone can elaborate on this idea even more and maybe end all discussions of whether we think this game will "fail" or not. If I personally choose not to play it...that doesn't mean it failed :)

Edited, Apr 18th 2013 7:25pm by electromagnet83
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#18 Apr 18 2013 at 5:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
All this discussion of whether or not it will fail. What constitutes a fail anyhow? I mean, think about it for a minute. How many MMOs really failed to the point that they ended? Not any major ones I can think of..and if they did shut down they ran for a very long time prior. Does "fail" mean like SWTOR where they come out on a subscription model and shortly switch to F2P? Does Fail mean what happened FFXIV 1.0? Because even then we arrive at 2.0 which, if does okay, means FFXIV was not a failure.

I hope that maybe someone can elaborate on this idea even more and maybe end all discussions of whether we think this game will "fail" or not. If I personally choose not to play it...that doesn't mean it failed :)


It's actually really interesting to hear people's definitions of failure for an MMO.

For some people, switching to a f2p model is failure even if the game picks up players and increases its revenue.

For some people, a game is a failure if it doesn't hold on to millions of active players over an arbitrary period of time, regardless of how healthy their player population actually is.

For me, failure means the game was shut down after a short period of time. I don't mean that it switched to f2p, I don't mean that it had some server merges, I mean it isn't there anymore and you can't play it.

Tabula Rasa shut down, Hellgate London shut down, APB shut down and then was relaunched, FFXIV shut down and is being relaunched.

Those games were failures in my book. APB tried to fix it, I don't actually know if it was successful at doing that, I suspect not. FFXIV is trying to fix it, we'll see.

But I can go all the way back... I played The Realm Online, which is pretty much the first MMORPG (though not the first one most people heard of, that was Ultima Online). And I was doing some digging a couple months ago and found out that The Realm is actually still running. It's from the late 90s. It's still there. I find that remarkable.
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#19 Apr 18 2013 at 5:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Games stay open because once they're done, staying open makes more money than shutting down (to a point). If a game costs $50 million and is only going to be able to recover $20 million, it was a failure. But they'd be idiots to shut the game down before recovering that $20 million. They still have to actually, you know, get people to give it to them.

Critical failure is more relative, but still ultimately a question of how well it was received by the target audience. If people are interested in the game and then don't like it, it's a failure. The same with music, food, movies, etc.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#20 Apr 18 2013 at 6:01 PM Rating: Good
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For me, the MMO failed if the publishers failed to meet one or more of their major objectives. Attain X number of users. Become more popular than Y game. Sell Z number of units. The publishers have certain expectations when they release a game, and if they're not meeting their own internal goals, then they failed on the most objective of levels. If they take their "failure" and turn it around somehow, either by going F2P and becoming modestly successful or doing the ARR thing and retooling the entire engine for a P2P release, it does not erase the fact that they failed on the first go round.

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#21 Apr 18 2013 at 6:18 PM Rating: Good
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All of these are good changes. There's a lot of nostalgia that goes on with gamers and older games. Frustration with a duty finder is great and all. If you don't like it, then don't use it. You can still form groups with your friends and LS members.

I don't see the nostalgia in waiting for transportation. I travel on airplanes. I spend hours in airports waiting to go somewhere, feeling like I want to stab my eyes out. Renting a black/red chocobo for flight between towns and teleporting in a magical world aren't difficult concepts, and neither are airship events, which in themselves could end up pretty interesting.

I'm sure the drop of the NDA you're going to see posts from both sides. OMG THIS [IS/ISN'T] JUST LIKE [WoW/FFXI/AoC/Aion/Lineage/etc] SO THIS GAME WILL [SUCCEED/FAIL]!!11. The bottom line is a majority of the changes make it so players can spend more time in game playing and not in-game standing around.
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#22 Apr 18 2013 at 6:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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You seriously don't think they're going to regularly add content once the game launches Kachi? Smiley: rolleyes
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#23 Apr 18 2013 at 6:26 PM Rating: Good
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As long as they do better than the XI team which spent way too much time adjusting the /bell commands that no one ever used.... I think it'll be okay.
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#24 Apr 18 2013 at 6:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
As long as they do better than the XI team which spent way too much time adjusting the /bell commands that no one ever used.... I think it'll be okay.


The XI team has some weird priorities, and the age and antiquated nature of their platform just compounds some of their stranger decisions.

For instance, two hours of maintenance to up the drop rate on a particular mining item? Sorry... two hours of EMERGENCY maintenance to do that.

Wut?
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#25 Apr 18 2013 at 6:29 PM Rating: Default
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desmar wrote:
All of these are good changes. There's a lot of nostalgia that goes on with gamers and older games. Frustration with a duty finder is great and all. If you don't like it, then don't use it. You can still form groups with your friends and LS members.

I don't see the nostalgia in waiting for transportation. I travel on airplanes. I spend hours in airports waiting to go somewhere, feeling like I want to stab my eyes out. Renting a black/red chocobo for flight between towns and teleporting in a magical world aren't difficult concepts, and neither are airship events, which in themselves could end up pretty interesting.

I'm sure the drop of the NDA you're going to see posts from both sides. OMG THIS [IS/ISN'T] JUST LIKE [WoW/FFXI/AoC/Aion/Lineage/etc] SO THIS GAME WILL [SUCCEED/FAIL]!!11. The bottom line is a majority of the changes make it so players can spend more time in game playing and not in-game standing around.



I know it was time consuming but I really enjoyed the travel methods in FFXI. It really provided a great sense of immersion and authenticity that few games achieve. I think they could have shortened some of the sequences though. Like, there was no sense in the Mhaura ships only coming around once every half hour or so (or whatever it really was). Change it to, how about say, every 10 minutes. And then ride is only 3-5 minutes long. AND THEN, how about have a "quick travel" option to either teleport or ride the ferry but skipping the instanced ride section. All in favor?
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#26 Apr 18 2013 at 6:50 PM Rating: Good
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electromagnet83 wrote:
desmar wrote:
All of these are good changes. There's a lot of nostalgia that goes on with gamers and older games. Frustration with a duty finder is great and all. If you don't like it, then don't use it. You can still form groups with your friends and LS members.

I don't see the nostalgia in waiting for transportation. I travel on airplanes. I spend hours in airports waiting to go somewhere, feeling like I want to stab my eyes out. Renting a black/red chocobo for flight between towns and teleporting in a magical world aren't difficult concepts, and neither are airship events, which in themselves could end up pretty interesting.

I'm sure the drop of the NDA you're going to see posts from both sides. OMG THIS [IS/ISN'T] JUST LIKE [WoW/FFXI/AoC/Aion/Lineage/etc] SO THIS GAME WILL [SUCCEED/FAIL]!!11. The bottom line is a majority of the changes make it so players can spend more time in game playing and not in-game standing around.



I know it was time consuming but I really enjoyed the travel methods in FFXI. It really provided a great sense of immersion and authenticity that few games achieve. I think they could have shortened some of the sequences though. Like, there was no sense in the Mhaura ships only coming around once every half hour or so (or whatever it really was). Change it to, how about say, every 10 minutes. And then ride is only 3-5 minutes long. AND THEN, how about have a "quick travel" option to either teleport or ride the ferry but skipping the instanced ride section. All in favor?


Change it to, when you get to the ferry, you are able to board it immediately and leave like 2-3 minutes later. Sure, make the ferry ride 5 minutes or even a longer, but make events on it like in FFXI. Have pirates attack, or something LIKE the Sea Horror, only non-aggressive so that some happy little hume doesn't take the ferry for the first time without a care in the world, only to go up on deck, and get molested by that giant octo-*****... not that I'm still mad or anything....

Edited, Apr 18th 2013 8:53pm by BartelX
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#27 Apr 18 2013 at 6:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Wint wrote:
You seriously don't think they're going to regularly add content once the game launches Kachi? Smiley: rolleyes


You seriously think they'll be able to add enough to keep pace?

Of course I'll admit that I could be wrong, but my guess is that if they're creating all new content from scratch, it won't be enough. Think of it in terms of FFXI. XI didn't have enough content upon the JP release to prevent players from finishing it, and that game was slow as ****--it would never hold the attention of a U.S. audience. There's a tradeoff that's made in pacing a game that waivers between boring your players throughout the game vs. letting them do everything soon and be bored when its done. When you don't rely extensively on emergent mechanics, this is inevitable. Finding the best middle ground is all that they can do, but at the end of the day, you can't solve the pacing problem without more content.

It's like surviving a famine. You can stuff your players at the start and let them suffer on their own fat when they get to the end, or you can string it out, letting them go hungry every day. And somewhere there's an optimal rationing to keep them in the best possible shape, but at some point, no fancy rationing will save you. When you're out of food, you're out of food. A trickle of new rations here and there won't cut it.
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#28 Apr 18 2013 at 6:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Wint wrote:
You seriously don't think they're going to regularly add content once the game launches Kachi? Smiley: rolleyes


You seriously think they'll be able to add enough to keep pace?

Of course I'll admit that I could be wrong, but my guess is that if they're creating all new content from scratch, it won't be enough. Think of it in terms of FFXI. XI didn't have enough content upon the JP release to prevent players from finishing it, and that game was slow as ****--it would never hold the attention of a U.S. audience. There's a tradeoff that's made in pacing a game that waivers between boring your players throughout the game vs. letting them do everything soon and be bored when its done. When you don't rely extensively on emergent mechanics, this is inevitable. Finding the best middle ground is all that they can do, but at the end of the day, you can't solve the pacing problem without more content.

It's like surviving a famine. You can stuff your players at the start and let them suffer on their own fat when they get to the end, or you can string it out, letting them go hungry every day. And somewhere there's an optimal rationing to keep them in the best possible shape, but at some point, no fancy rationing will save you. When you're out of food, you're out of food. A trickle of new rations here and there won't cut it.


I actually do. Their roadmap for change doesn't stop with the launch of ARR, there are plans for many more things regularly after the game launches. Examples are DX11 support and the Addon system. These aren't small things, and they're already planning for them. Why wouldn't Yoshi and Company have a plan for end game once the game launches? I absolutely think they'll be able to keep people busy.
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#29 Apr 18 2013 at 6:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Those things aren't content though. I've never known a game to be able to add content sustainably. At best, they can string people along so that there's only a month or two between the next major update.

If I'm wrong, I'll be impressed even if the game is otherwise an utter failure.
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#30 Apr 18 2013 at 7:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Those things aren't content though. I've never known a game to be able to add content sustainably. At best, they can string people along so that there's only a month or two between the next major update.

If I'm wrong, I'll be impressed even if the game is otherwise an utter failure.


That's fair. I expect they will do better than most developers since there is a lot riding on it but we'll see.
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#31 Apr 18 2013 at 7:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well it depends on how you define "keep pace."

There are a couple of extremes here to examine first:

1: FFXI. They spent 5 years on their previous expansion, slowly trickling out content over that time and experimenting with the little scenarios in the interim. This is probably too slow for an MMO not based on horizontal-progression.
2: Rift. They released major content patches every month after release for like six months before they had to slow down to once every 3 months. Each of these patches contained a new raid, and I think every other one contained a large world event. Unfortunately, this blistering release schedule had the consequence of leaving crippling bugs in the earlier content. They literally didn't have time to fix them.

I think something in between is reasonable, but it's all dependent on how much content the game launches with and where that content is.

Keep in mind too that players aren't relegated to playing a single class, unlike other MMOs. This potentially adds life to early and mid-game content that wouldn't be there in a single-class game. Endgame might be a touch lighter at launch because of this, but there's no way to really know that right now.

I cannot imagine a scenario where the dev team would not continue to release content for the game. This is an MMO. I'm convinced they know what that is.
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#32 Apr 18 2013 at 8:04 PM Rating: Default
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BartelX wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
desmar wrote:
All of these are good changes. There's a lot of nostalgia that goes on with gamers and older games. Frustration with a duty finder is great and all. If you don't like it, then don't use it. You can still form groups with your friends and LS members.

I don't see the nostalgia in waiting for transportation. I travel on airplanes. I spend hours in airports waiting to go somewhere, feeling like I want to stab my eyes out. Renting a black/red chocobo for flight between towns and teleporting in a magical world aren't difficult concepts, and neither are airship events, which in themselves could end up pretty interesting.

I'm sure the drop of the NDA you're going to see posts from both sides. OMG THIS [IS/ISN'T] JUST LIKE [WoW/FFXI/AoC/Aion/Lineage/etc] SO THIS GAME WILL [SUCCEED/FAIL]!!11. The bottom line is a majority of the changes make it so players can spend more time in game playing and not in-game standing around.



I know it was time consuming but I really enjoyed the travel methods in FFXI. It really provided a great sense of immersion and authenticity that few games achieve. I think they could have shortened some of the sequences though. Like, there was no sense in the Mhaura ships only coming around once every half hour or so (or whatever it really was). Change it to, how about say, every 10 minutes. And then ride is only 3-5 minutes long. AND THEN, how about have a "quick travel" option to either teleport or ride the ferry but skipping the instanced ride section. All in favor?


Change it to, when you get to the ferry, you are able to board it immediately and leave like 2-3 minutes later. Sure, make the ferry ride 5 minutes or even a longer, but make events on it like in FFXI. Have pirates attack, or something LIKE the Sea Horror, only non-aggressive so that some happy little hume doesn't take the ferry for the first time without a care in the world, only to go up on deck, and get molested by that giant octo-*****... not that I'm still mad or anything....

Edited, Apr 18th 2013 8:53pm by BartelX



I actually Laughed out loud at that one.
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#34 Apr 18 2013 at 8:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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I remember my first experience with the Sea Horror. I love **** like that.
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#35 Apr 18 2013 at 8:14 PM Rating: Good
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Heh, I actually do too. I still remember going back on my thf and soloing him and dancing on his corpse as it disappeared... not that I'm still mad or anything. >.>

Edited, Apr 18th 2013 10:14pm by BartelX
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#36 Apr 18 2013 at 8:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Well it depends on how you define "keep pace."

There are a couple of extremes here to examine first:

1: FFXI. They spent 5 years on their previous expansion, slowly trickling out content over that time and experimenting with the little scenarios in the interim. This is probably too slow for an MMO not based on horizontal-progression.
2: Rift. They released major content patches every month after release for like six months before they had to slow down to once every 3 months. Each of these patches contained a new raid, and I think every other one contained a large world event. Unfortunately, this blistering release schedule had the consequence of leaving crippling bugs in the earlier content. They literally didn't have time to fix them.

I think something in between is reasonable, but it's all dependent on how much content the game launches with and where that content is.

Keep in mind too that players aren't relegated to playing a single class, unlike other MMOs. This potentially adds life to early and mid-game content that wouldn't be there in a single-class game. Endgame might be a touch lighter at launch because of this, but there's no way to really know that right now.

I cannot imagine a scenario where the dev team would not continue to release content for the game. This is an MMO. I'm convinced they know what that is.


Unfortunately I'm not counting on the multi-class system adding replayability to the content based on the direction they're talking about, otherwise I'd agree. Maybe if the leveling pace is quick and fun and the classes are sufficiently differentiated. I feel that this is one area where FFXI could have easily picked up a lot of slack and been more successful by a lot, but I've probably said that about 100 times.

Like I said, if they can keep pumping out content, even if the game bombs, I will genuinely be impressed and my opinion of the developers will be improved by whatever amount. Eastern developers seem to have some aversion to making significant game updates.

When I say "keep pace," it's not a matter of semantics. It all goes back to the end user experience for me. If most people will enjoy it sustainably, then the game keeps pace. If they can't put enough content out to keep users engaged, then they failed to keep pace. Unfortunately this is one of those things that requires more than good intentions or even smart design--if you don't have the resources on the task, no resource management strategy will turn water into wine.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

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#37 Apr 18 2013 at 9:28 PM Rating: Good
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The thing about adding FFXI classes and replayability is that the leveling spots are always the same. Grind crabs, grind more crabs in another zone. I mean they could've made a flag option called 'Looking for Crabs'.

In 14, you'll have quest progression from each of the classes as well as the zones. So you could theoretically have quest content for three characters from 1-50 (Uldah, LL, and Grid), and after that, you'd be repeating content.

So in actuality, you're experiencing new content through your first three classes, before you're back to farming dungeons or whatever bakes your cake.
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#38 Apr 18 2013 at 9:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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I honestly like XI still because I can log in and **** around on things that have absolutely nothing to do with leveling progression, endgame, or making money. I spent two hours completely redecorating my mog house a few months back. (Spent half a million gil on it, too...) Pared down my collection of useless junk, stored what I could, redid most of my furniture to be white cloth based, added in a small kitchen, a small dining area, and a bedroom. My living room only needs a couch to be complete, but SE has never seen fit to add those.

An MMO needs these little touches to help enrich the world. Endgame raid content is necessary too, of course, and plenty of it. But sometimes you just want to log on and fritter away your time on something silly. If the game provides nothing that scratches that itch, you're not going to log on at all that day, and eventually you won't log in again. 1.0 didn't scratch that itch for me - crafting was too confusing, botany was too annoying, I had no mog house, I could never get a spot for my retainer in the market wards...

ARR looks like they're going to have that kind of content, with the simplified crafting and the giant Free Company houses. Personally, there are days where I just want to plop down in a big city inside the game and watch life parade around me. When I did that in Ul'dah 1.0, only ten characters loaded so it was kind of pointless.
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#39 Apr 18 2013 at 9:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wint wrote:
I remember my first experience with the Sea Horror. I love sh*t like that.


Had my share of him as well, when I was camping the 2 club NM for my whm, got fishing up to 45 by the time I got both of them.
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#40 Apr 18 2013 at 10:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
An MMO needs these little touches to help enrich the world. Endgame raid content is necessary too, of course, and plenty of it. But sometimes you just want to log on and fritter away your time on something silly. If the game provides nothing that scratches that itch, you're not going to log on at all that day, and eventually you won't log in again.
I don't think anyone would actually be against little things that add detail to the game world. I used to collect books on my gnome warrior in WoW (yet my collection was missing some stuff), for example. Certainly helps in giving our characters depth.
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#41 Apr 19 2013 at 4:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Ruisu wrote:
Catwho wrote:
An MMO needs these little touches to help enrich the world. Endgame raid content is necessary too, of course, and plenty of it. But sometimes you just want to log on and fritter away your time on something silly. If the game provides nothing that scratches that itch, you're not going to log on at all that day, and eventually you won't log in again.
I don't think anyone would actually be against little things that add detail to the game world. I used to collect books on my gnome warrior in WoW (yet my collection was missing some stuff), for example. Certainly helps in giving our characters depth.


Agree with this. From what I know about the game, there'll be lots of little collectables and mounts that even the "casuals" can enjoy. Smiley: rolleyes
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#42 Apr 19 2013 at 6:26 AM Rating: Good
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Breaking News! 14 will be more casual than 11!

No seriously, it's getting a bit tiring. Every new bit that comes out gets analyzed as proof this game will be "casual-only." I don't deign to know their plans, but you're all just spouting sh*t we already know.

And all the sh*t-talking on "casuals" here is really starting to sound like the god-awful official forums. You're all acting like Yoshi-P doesn't know or care about the core audience, and the fear-mongering is just getting tiresome.

I'm pretty sure that having Primals as the BASE endgame content tells a lot. Those that played 1.0 can attest that Ifrit and Garuda gave many people trouble (Garuda particularly). Now add Titan, Odin, etc, and remember that the old content was pretty **** hard for casual and pugs, and then clearing the crystal tower, which we know nothing about other than it's so long that you can save your progress on which floor you're on and come back to it later, all to get INTO the labyrinth of Bahamut.

Yeah, this sounds like easy mode. I quitting already.



Edited, Apr 19th 2013 8:27am by Louiscool
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#43 Apr 19 2013 at 7:07 AM Rating: Good
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No MMO ever keeps pace with their hardcore base.

Content gets beaten within hours of release and the only reason people are continually kept is drop rates that they wind up complaining about being too low. It's a catch 22, Kane sites without being aware of it and completely irrelevant to the game's success.

But let's keep things in perspective a moment. The majority of FFXIV 1.23 players have classes at level 50. Yoshida is more aware of the exact amount of those people than we are. So the pressure for endgame in some form to be there and sustain its base is already existent at launch and any issues with the speed of progression being too fast is moot because of it.

Yoshida is aware that he has to have a sustained endgame at launch, not down the line. This will likely be divied up between PvP, Crystal Tower/Labrynth of Bahamut, and FATES.

As far as the game on rails? Dungeons are likely not needed to level but are encouraged. And honestly, I'd prefer players got used to raiding through their leveling so they will be more adjusted to it when it comes time, then in say, FFXI where you go form 65-75 levels of nothing then dive into Dynamis.
#44 Apr 19 2013 at 7:29 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
Content gets beaten within hours of release and the only reason people are continually kept is drop rates that they wind up complaining about being too low.


Depends on the game really. FFXI certainly wasn't that way, because the endgame stuff was WAY too difficult to get beaten in a couple hours. Most of that required precise strategies that took long amounts of time to figure out. Some, (AV, Pandemonium Warden) were so difficult they were never really defeated as intended. Even FFXIV 1.XX had some challenging content. I remember Ifrit taking people a while to figure out how to beat it. It certainly didn't help that you could basically spam the fight over and over until you did beat it though. Heck, even games like WoW weren't beaten in a couple hours. I remember back when ICC was out, beating 25 man Hardmode was an accomplishment, and took weeks to achieve even once.

Personally, I'm not worried at all about endgame for FFXIV. I consider myself a casual hardcore playe...sounds like an oxymoron I know, but what I mean is that I don't have a TON of time to play, but when I do I'm pretty competitive and like to be the best that I can. On release I plan to start at level 1 so that I can fully enjoy the game. I figure, by the time I actually get to 50, they'll be well on their way to adding more endgame content, and by the time I actually beat all the content that's out now, there should be more available.
#45 Apr 19 2013 at 9:41 AM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
Content gets beaten within hours of release and the only reason people are continually kept is drop rates that they wind up complaining about being too low.

Personally, I'm not worried at all about endgame for FFXIV. I consider myself a casual hardcore playe...sounds like an oxymoron I know, but what I mean is that I don't have a TON of time to play, but when I do I'm pretty competitive and like to be the best that I can.


Ha, sounds like the same category I'm in with all my friends. Ex-hardcore that just don't have the time anymore...
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#46 Apr 19 2013 at 10:17 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah I'm in the same camp. Two jobs kinda kills your availability.
#47 Apr 19 2013 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
Dungeons are likely not needed to level but are encouraged. And honestly, I'd prefer players got used to raiding through their leveling so they will be more adjusted to it when it comes time, then in say, FFXI where you go form 65-75 levels of nothing then dive into Dynamis.
Depends on how they expect groups to behave and perform in endgame compared to leveling. Most people begin to pick up on what advantages their classes have by mid-game (CC, debuffs, kiting, stun-locking), and overall tanking and healing doesn't really change from party play to 40/25/24-man raids. There's not much to prepare people for endgame outside of dungeon bosses having weaker/simpler versions of mechanics you'd see in a raid boss fight. At least, assuming they plan to look at WoW for inspiration on that front.

Louiscool wrote:
I'm pretty sure that having Primals as the BASE endgame content tells a lot. Those that played 1.0 can attest that Ifrit and Garuda gave many people trouble (Garuda particularly). Now add Titan, Odin, etc, and remember that the old content was pretty **** hard for casual and pugs, and then clearing the crystal tower, which we know nothing about other than it's so long that you can save your progress on which floor you're on and come back to it later, all to get INTO the labyrinth of Bahamut.
Mechanically Ifrit and Garuda were really simple. The problem was more lag/latency/delay-between-server-and-client f*cking people over so badly that stuff you were supposed to avoid as per the encounters' design would still hit you, exponentially increasing the chances of a wipe. That's pretty much why I didn't bother with hard modes in 1.0. I can accept being too slow to react and eating dirt for it, but I'm not bashing my head against a wall for getting hit with eruption or Garuda's frontal cone attack despite me having moved out of the way client-side.

Nael took this into account somewhat, but even then avoiding his crap was part guesswork and part anticipation.

Edited, Apr 19th 2013 6:11pm by Ruisu
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#48 Apr 19 2013 at 6:18 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
I remember my first experience with the Sea Horror. I love sh*t like that.


I remember mine too! I met this 70 year old couple and we traveled together that day. They told me to stay down stairs. Man... I heard screams and fighting followed by death going on up top. I was terrified lmao. Good times~

Edited, Apr 19th 2013 8:19pm by GDLYL
#49 Apr 19 2013 at 6:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Ruisu wrote:

Louiscool wrote:
I'm pretty sure that having Primals as the BASE endgame content tells a lot. Those that played 1.0 can attest that Ifrit and Garuda gave many people trouble (Garuda particularly). Now add Titan, Odin, etc, and remember that the old content was pretty **** hard for casual and pugs, and then clearing the crystal tower, which we know nothing about other than it's so long that you can save your progress on which floor you're on and come back to it later, all to get INTO the labyrinth of Bahamut.
Mechanically Ifrit and Garuda were really simple. The problem was more lag/latency/delay-between-server-and-client f*cking people over so badly that stuff you were supposed to avoid as per the encounters' design would still hit you, exponentially increasing the chances of a wipe. That's pretty much why I didn't bother with hard modes in 1.0. I can accept being too slow to react and eating dirt for it, but I'm not bashing my head against a wall for getting hit with eruption or Garuda's frontal cone attack despite me having moved out of the way client-side.

Nael took this into account somewhat, but even then avoiding his crap was part guesswork and part anticipation.

Edited, Apr 19th 2013 6:11pm by Ruisu


If you didn't bother with Hard Modes, you have no idea what I'm talking about. I had hardly any trouble with lag, only animation lock. Ifrit normal was a level 25 fight.... Garuda normal was 4-mannable. I'm most definitely not calling these end-game bosses. (Also, include moogles when you think primals, they count.)

Edited, Apr 19th 2013 9:00pm by Louiscool
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#50 Apr 19 2013 at 8:46 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
I expect they will do better than most developers since there is a lot riding on it but we'll see.

So all of those other, long development time, multi-million dollar MMORPGs just didn't have enough "riding on it" to justify making content?

Well, these arguments don't matter, really. There's always a surge of blind XIV-defence following lengthy announcements. I attribute it to people trying hard to maintain their level of excitement for the game and therefore stomping out opposition with particular force. But it always happens that, months later, that glow wears off, and those same people alter their expectations along with their tone - that is, until the next announcement. Then some time later they slip away from the game quietly and forget all about what they said on the forums.

(Oh, and this isn't necessarily direction at you specifically, Wint, even though I decided to quote your comment at the top.)

Edited, Apr 19th 2013 10:55pm by KaneKitty
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#51 Apr 19 2013 at 9:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
Ruisu wrote:

Louiscool wrote:
I'm pretty sure that having Primals as the BASE endgame content tells a lot. Those that played 1.0 can attest that Ifrit and Garuda gave many people trouble (Garuda particularly). Now add Titan, Odin, etc, and remember that the old content was pretty **** hard for casual and pugs, and then clearing the crystal tower, which we know nothing about other than it's so long that you can save your progress on which floor you're on and come back to it later, all to get INTO the labyrinth of Bahamut.
Mechanically Ifrit and Garuda were really simple. The problem was more lag/latency/delay-between-server-and-client f*cking people over so badly that stuff you were supposed to avoid as per the encounters' design would still hit you, exponentially increasing the chances of a wipe. That's pretty much why I didn't bother with hard modes in 1.0. I can accept being too slow to react and eating dirt for it, but I'm not bashing my head against a wall for getting hit with eruption or Garuda's frontal cone attack despite me having moved out of the way client-side.

Nael took this into account somewhat, but even then avoiding his crap was part guesswork and part anticipation.


If you didn't bother with Hard Modes, you have no idea what I'm talking about. I had hardly any trouble with lag, only animation lock. Ifrit normal was a level 25 fight.... Garuda normal was 4-mannable. I'm most definitely not calling these end-game bosses. (Also, include moogles when you think primals, they count.)
Maybe it's a bad habit from WoW, but I read up on pretty much everything I can for bosses, and watched videos of the hard mode fights while trying to learn the mechanics ahead of time. Garuda was pretty much Sapphiron meets Hagara the Stormbinder with Auriaya's frontal cone attack, with the clones and plumes to simulate a DPS race for the group. Ifrit was standard void zones with a charge attack (a la Icehowl) but with fixed positioning and direction.

Just because you had no problems with latency doesn't mean fight conditions were perfect for others. I could have probably managed with Ifrit, but I've seen Garuda on normal without the lag could wipe groups of 50s, and again, moving out of the way from her attacks and still getting hit by them on normal only makes me imagine the cement wall I'd be throwing myself at if I were to do it on hard. Nael, again, had a similar problem in that his lasers processed client side but would not deal actual damage up to 1.5 seconds after the animations finishid. Some individuals were willing to trudge through those, and I commend them for it--after all, they have their relics and white ravens to show for it.
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