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#27 Apr 18 2013 at 6:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Wint wrote:
You seriously don't think they're going to regularly add content once the game launches Kachi? Smiley: rolleyes


You seriously think they'll be able to add enough to keep pace?

Of course I'll admit that I could be wrong, but my guess is that if they're creating all new content from scratch, it won't be enough. Think of it in terms of FFXI. XI didn't have enough content upon the JP release to prevent players from finishing it, and that game was slow as ****--it would never hold the attention of a U.S. audience. There's a tradeoff that's made in pacing a game that waivers between boring your players throughout the game vs. letting them do everything soon and be bored when its done. When you don't rely extensively on emergent mechanics, this is inevitable. Finding the best middle ground is all that they can do, but at the end of the day, you can't solve the pacing problem without more content.

It's like surviving a famine. You can stuff your players at the start and let them suffer on their own fat when they get to the end, or you can string it out, letting them go hungry every day. And somewhere there's an optimal rationing to keep them in the best possible shape, but at some point, no fancy rationing will save you. When you're out of food, you're out of food. A trickle of new rations here and there won't cut it.
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#28 Apr 18 2013 at 6:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Wint wrote:
You seriously don't think they're going to regularly add content once the game launches Kachi? Smiley: rolleyes


You seriously think they'll be able to add enough to keep pace?

Of course I'll admit that I could be wrong, but my guess is that if they're creating all new content from scratch, it won't be enough. Think of it in terms of FFXI. XI didn't have enough content upon the JP release to prevent players from finishing it, and that game was slow as ****--it would never hold the attention of a U.S. audience. There's a tradeoff that's made in pacing a game that waivers between boring your players throughout the game vs. letting them do everything soon and be bored when its done. When you don't rely extensively on emergent mechanics, this is inevitable. Finding the best middle ground is all that they can do, but at the end of the day, you can't solve the pacing problem without more content.

It's like surviving a famine. You can stuff your players at the start and let them suffer on their own fat when they get to the end, or you can string it out, letting them go hungry every day. And somewhere there's an optimal rationing to keep them in the best possible shape, but at some point, no fancy rationing will save you. When you're out of food, you're out of food. A trickle of new rations here and there won't cut it.


I actually do. Their roadmap for change doesn't stop with the launch of ARR, there are plans for many more things regularly after the game launches. Examples are DX11 support and the Addon system. These aren't small things, and they're already planning for them. Why wouldn't Yoshi and Company have a plan for end game once the game launches? I absolutely think they'll be able to keep people busy.
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#29 Apr 18 2013 at 6:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Those things aren't content though. I've never known a game to be able to add content sustainably. At best, they can string people along so that there's only a month or two between the next major update.

If I'm wrong, I'll be impressed even if the game is otherwise an utter failure.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#30 Apr 18 2013 at 7:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Those things aren't content though. I've never known a game to be able to add content sustainably. At best, they can string people along so that there's only a month or two between the next major update.

If I'm wrong, I'll be impressed even if the game is otherwise an utter failure.


That's fair. I expect they will do better than most developers since there is a lot riding on it but we'll see.
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#31 Apr 18 2013 at 7:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well it depends on how you define "keep pace."

There are a couple of extremes here to examine first:

1: FFXI. They spent 5 years on their previous expansion, slowly trickling out content over that time and experimenting with the little scenarios in the interim. This is probably too slow for an MMO not based on horizontal-progression.
2: Rift. They released major content patches every month after release for like six months before they had to slow down to once every 3 months. Each of these patches contained a new raid, and I think every other one contained a large world event. Unfortunately, this blistering release schedule had the consequence of leaving crippling bugs in the earlier content. They literally didn't have time to fix them.

I think something in between is reasonable, but it's all dependent on how much content the game launches with and where that content is.

Keep in mind too that players aren't relegated to playing a single class, unlike other MMOs. This potentially adds life to early and mid-game content that wouldn't be there in a single-class game. Endgame might be a touch lighter at launch because of this, but there's no way to really know that right now.

I cannot imagine a scenario where the dev team would not continue to release content for the game. This is an MMO. I'm convinced they know what that is.
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#32 Apr 18 2013 at 8:04 PM Rating: Default
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BartelX wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
desmar wrote:
All of these are good changes. There's a lot of nostalgia that goes on with gamers and older games. Frustration with a duty finder is great and all. If you don't like it, then don't use it. You can still form groups with your friends and LS members.

I don't see the nostalgia in waiting for transportation. I travel on airplanes. I spend hours in airports waiting to go somewhere, feeling like I want to stab my eyes out. Renting a black/red chocobo for flight between towns and teleporting in a magical world aren't difficult concepts, and neither are airship events, which in themselves could end up pretty interesting.

I'm sure the drop of the NDA you're going to see posts from both sides. OMG THIS [IS/ISN'T] JUST LIKE [WoW/FFXI/AoC/Aion/Lineage/etc] SO THIS GAME WILL [SUCCEED/FAIL]!!11. The bottom line is a majority of the changes make it so players can spend more time in game playing and not in-game standing around.



I know it was time consuming but I really enjoyed the travel methods in FFXI. It really provided a great sense of immersion and authenticity that few games achieve. I think they could have shortened some of the sequences though. Like, there was no sense in the Mhaura ships only coming around once every half hour or so (or whatever it really was). Change it to, how about say, every 10 minutes. And then ride is only 3-5 minutes long. AND THEN, how about have a "quick travel" option to either teleport or ride the ferry but skipping the instanced ride section. All in favor?


Change it to, when you get to the ferry, you are able to board it immediately and leave like 2-3 minutes later. Sure, make the ferry ride 5 minutes or even a longer, but make events on it like in FFXI. Have pirates attack, or something LIKE the Sea Horror, only non-aggressive so that some happy little hume doesn't take the ferry for the first time without a care in the world, only to go up on deck, and get molested by that giant octo-*****... not that I'm still mad or anything....

Edited, Apr 18th 2013 8:53pm by BartelX



I actually Laughed out loud at that one.
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#34 Apr 18 2013 at 8:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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I remember my first experience with the Sea Horror. I love **** like that.
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#35 Apr 18 2013 at 8:14 PM Rating: Good
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Heh, I actually do too. I still remember going back on my thf and soloing him and dancing on his corpse as it disappeared... not that I'm still mad or anything. >.>

Edited, Apr 18th 2013 10:14pm by BartelX
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#36 Apr 18 2013 at 8:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Well it depends on how you define "keep pace."

There are a couple of extremes here to examine first:

1: FFXI. They spent 5 years on their previous expansion, slowly trickling out content over that time and experimenting with the little scenarios in the interim. This is probably too slow for an MMO not based on horizontal-progression.
2: Rift. They released major content patches every month after release for like six months before they had to slow down to once every 3 months. Each of these patches contained a new raid, and I think every other one contained a large world event. Unfortunately, this blistering release schedule had the consequence of leaving crippling bugs in the earlier content. They literally didn't have time to fix them.

I think something in between is reasonable, but it's all dependent on how much content the game launches with and where that content is.

Keep in mind too that players aren't relegated to playing a single class, unlike other MMOs. This potentially adds life to early and mid-game content that wouldn't be there in a single-class game. Endgame might be a touch lighter at launch because of this, but there's no way to really know that right now.

I cannot imagine a scenario where the dev team would not continue to release content for the game. This is an MMO. I'm convinced they know what that is.


Unfortunately I'm not counting on the multi-class system adding replayability to the content based on the direction they're talking about, otherwise I'd agree. Maybe if the leveling pace is quick and fun and the classes are sufficiently differentiated. I feel that this is one area where FFXI could have easily picked up a lot of slack and been more successful by a lot, but I've probably said that about 100 times.

Like I said, if they can keep pumping out content, even if the game bombs, I will genuinely be impressed and my opinion of the developers will be improved by whatever amount. Eastern developers seem to have some aversion to making significant game updates.

When I say "keep pace," it's not a matter of semantics. It all goes back to the end user experience for me. If most people will enjoy it sustainably, then the game keeps pace. If they can't put enough content out to keep users engaged, then they failed to keep pace. Unfortunately this is one of those things that requires more than good intentions or even smart design--if you don't have the resources on the task, no resource management strategy will turn water into wine.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#37 Apr 18 2013 at 9:28 PM Rating: Good
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The thing about adding FFXI classes and replayability is that the leveling spots are always the same. Grind crabs, grind more crabs in another zone. I mean they could've made a flag option called 'Looking for Crabs'.

In 14, you'll have quest progression from each of the classes as well as the zones. So you could theoretically have quest content for three characters from 1-50 (Uldah, LL, and Grid), and after that, you'd be repeating content.

So in actuality, you're experiencing new content through your first three classes, before you're back to farming dungeons or whatever bakes your cake.
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#38 Apr 18 2013 at 9:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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I honestly like XI still because I can log in and **** around on things that have absolutely nothing to do with leveling progression, endgame, or making money. I spent two hours completely redecorating my mog house a few months back. (Spent half a million gil on it, too...) Pared down my collection of useless junk, stored what I could, redid most of my furniture to be white cloth based, added in a small kitchen, a small dining area, and a bedroom. My living room only needs a couch to be complete, but SE has never seen fit to add those.

An MMO needs these little touches to help enrich the world. Endgame raid content is necessary too, of course, and plenty of it. But sometimes you just want to log on and fritter away your time on something silly. If the game provides nothing that scratches that itch, you're not going to log on at all that day, and eventually you won't log in again. 1.0 didn't scratch that itch for me - crafting was too confusing, botany was too annoying, I had no mog house, I could never get a spot for my retainer in the market wards...

ARR looks like they're going to have that kind of content, with the simplified crafting and the giant Free Company houses. Personally, there are days where I just want to plop down in a big city inside the game and watch life parade around me. When I did that in Ul'dah 1.0, only ten characters loaded so it was kind of pointless.
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#39 Apr 18 2013 at 9:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wint wrote:
I remember my first experience with the Sea Horror. I love sh*t like that.


Had my share of him as well, when I was camping the 2 club NM for my whm, got fishing up to 45 by the time I got both of them.
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#40 Apr 18 2013 at 10:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
An MMO needs these little touches to help enrich the world. Endgame raid content is necessary too, of course, and plenty of it. But sometimes you just want to log on and fritter away your time on something silly. If the game provides nothing that scratches that itch, you're not going to log on at all that day, and eventually you won't log in again.
I don't think anyone would actually be against little things that add detail to the game world. I used to collect books on my gnome warrior in WoW (yet my collection was missing some stuff), for example. Certainly helps in giving our characters depth.
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#41 Apr 19 2013 at 4:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Ruisu wrote:
Catwho wrote:
An MMO needs these little touches to help enrich the world. Endgame raid content is necessary too, of course, and plenty of it. But sometimes you just want to log on and fritter away your time on something silly. If the game provides nothing that scratches that itch, you're not going to log on at all that day, and eventually you won't log in again.
I don't think anyone would actually be against little things that add detail to the game world. I used to collect books on my gnome warrior in WoW (yet my collection was missing some stuff), for example. Certainly helps in giving our characters depth.


Agree with this. From what I know about the game, there'll be lots of little collectables and mounts that even the "casuals" can enjoy. Smiley: rolleyes
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#42 Apr 19 2013 at 6:26 AM Rating: Good
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Breaking News! 14 will be more casual than 11!

No seriously, it's getting a bit tiring. Every new bit that comes out gets analyzed as proof this game will be "casual-only." I don't deign to know their plans, but you're all just spouting sh*t we already know.

And all the sh*t-talking on "casuals" here is really starting to sound like the god-awful official forums. You're all acting like Yoshi-P doesn't know or care about the core audience, and the fear-mongering is just getting tiresome.

I'm pretty sure that having Primals as the BASE endgame content tells a lot. Those that played 1.0 can attest that Ifrit and Garuda gave many people trouble (Garuda particularly). Now add Titan, Odin, etc, and remember that the old content was pretty **** hard for casual and pugs, and then clearing the crystal tower, which we know nothing about other than it's so long that you can save your progress on which floor you're on and come back to it later, all to get INTO the labyrinth of Bahamut.

Yeah, this sounds like easy mode. I quitting already.



Edited, Apr 19th 2013 8:27am by Louiscool
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#43 Apr 19 2013 at 7:07 AM Rating: Good
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No MMO ever keeps pace with their hardcore base.

Content gets beaten within hours of release and the only reason people are continually kept is drop rates that they wind up complaining about being too low. It's a catch 22, Kane sites without being aware of it and completely irrelevant to the game's success.

But let's keep things in perspective a moment. The majority of FFXIV 1.23 players have classes at level 50. Yoshida is more aware of the exact amount of those people than we are. So the pressure for endgame in some form to be there and sustain its base is already existent at launch and any issues with the speed of progression being too fast is moot because of it.

Yoshida is aware that he has to have a sustained endgame at launch, not down the line. This will likely be divied up between PvP, Crystal Tower/Labrynth of Bahamut, and FATES.

As far as the game on rails? Dungeons are likely not needed to level but are encouraged. And honestly, I'd prefer players got used to raiding through their leveling so they will be more adjusted to it when it comes time, then in say, FFXI where you go form 65-75 levels of nothing then dive into Dynamis.
#44 Apr 19 2013 at 7:29 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
Content gets beaten within hours of release and the only reason people are continually kept is drop rates that they wind up complaining about being too low.


Depends on the game really. FFXI certainly wasn't that way, because the endgame stuff was WAY too difficult to get beaten in a couple hours. Most of that required precise strategies that took long amounts of time to figure out. Some, (AV, Pandemonium Warden) were so difficult they were never really defeated as intended. Even FFXIV 1.XX had some challenging content. I remember Ifrit taking people a while to figure out how to beat it. It certainly didn't help that you could basically spam the fight over and over until you did beat it though. Heck, even games like WoW weren't beaten in a couple hours. I remember back when ICC was out, beating 25 man Hardmode was an accomplishment, and took weeks to achieve even once.

Personally, I'm not worried at all about endgame for FFXIV. I consider myself a casual hardcore playe...sounds like an oxymoron I know, but what I mean is that I don't have a TON of time to play, but when I do I'm pretty competitive and like to be the best that I can. On release I plan to start at level 1 so that I can fully enjoy the game. I figure, by the time I actually get to 50, they'll be well on their way to adding more endgame content, and by the time I actually beat all the content that's out now, there should be more available.
#45 Apr 19 2013 at 9:41 AM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
Content gets beaten within hours of release and the only reason people are continually kept is drop rates that they wind up complaining about being too low.

Personally, I'm not worried at all about endgame for FFXIV. I consider myself a casual hardcore playe...sounds like an oxymoron I know, but what I mean is that I don't have a TON of time to play, but when I do I'm pretty competitive and like to be the best that I can.


Ha, sounds like the same category I'm in with all my friends. Ex-hardcore that just don't have the time anymore...
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#46 Apr 19 2013 at 10:17 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah I'm in the same camp. Two jobs kinda kills your availability.
#47 Apr 19 2013 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
Dungeons are likely not needed to level but are encouraged. And honestly, I'd prefer players got used to raiding through their leveling so they will be more adjusted to it when it comes time, then in say, FFXI where you go form 65-75 levels of nothing then dive into Dynamis.
Depends on how they expect groups to behave and perform in endgame compared to leveling. Most people begin to pick up on what advantages their classes have by mid-game (CC, debuffs, kiting, stun-locking), and overall tanking and healing doesn't really change from party play to 40/25/24-man raids. There's not much to prepare people for endgame outside of dungeon bosses having weaker/simpler versions of mechanics you'd see in a raid boss fight. At least, assuming they plan to look at WoW for inspiration on that front.

Louiscool wrote:
I'm pretty sure that having Primals as the BASE endgame content tells a lot. Those that played 1.0 can attest that Ifrit and Garuda gave many people trouble (Garuda particularly). Now add Titan, Odin, etc, and remember that the old content was pretty **** hard for casual and pugs, and then clearing the crystal tower, which we know nothing about other than it's so long that you can save your progress on which floor you're on and come back to it later, all to get INTO the labyrinth of Bahamut.
Mechanically Ifrit and Garuda were really simple. The problem was more lag/latency/delay-between-server-and-client f*cking people over so badly that stuff you were supposed to avoid as per the encounters' design would still hit you, exponentially increasing the chances of a wipe. That's pretty much why I didn't bother with hard modes in 1.0. I can accept being too slow to react and eating dirt for it, but I'm not bashing my head against a wall for getting hit with eruption or Garuda's frontal cone attack despite me having moved out of the way client-side.

Nael took this into account somewhat, but even then avoiding his crap was part guesswork and part anticipation.

Edited, Apr 19th 2013 6:11pm by Ruisu
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#48 Apr 19 2013 at 6:18 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
I remember my first experience with the Sea Horror. I love sh*t like that.


I remember mine too! I met this 70 year old couple and we traveled together that day. They told me to stay down stairs. Man... I heard screams and fighting followed by death going on up top. I was terrified lmao. Good times~

Edited, Apr 19th 2013 8:19pm by GDLYL
#49 Apr 19 2013 at 6:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Ruisu wrote:

Louiscool wrote:
I'm pretty sure that having Primals as the BASE endgame content tells a lot. Those that played 1.0 can attest that Ifrit and Garuda gave many people trouble (Garuda particularly). Now add Titan, Odin, etc, and remember that the old content was pretty **** hard for casual and pugs, and then clearing the crystal tower, which we know nothing about other than it's so long that you can save your progress on which floor you're on and come back to it later, all to get INTO the labyrinth of Bahamut.
Mechanically Ifrit and Garuda were really simple. The problem was more lag/latency/delay-between-server-and-client f*cking people over so badly that stuff you were supposed to avoid as per the encounters' design would still hit you, exponentially increasing the chances of a wipe. That's pretty much why I didn't bother with hard modes in 1.0. I can accept being too slow to react and eating dirt for it, but I'm not bashing my head against a wall for getting hit with eruption or Garuda's frontal cone attack despite me having moved out of the way client-side.

Nael took this into account somewhat, but even then avoiding his crap was part guesswork and part anticipation.

Edited, Apr 19th 2013 6:11pm by Ruisu


If you didn't bother with Hard Modes, you have no idea what I'm talking about. I had hardly any trouble with lag, only animation lock. Ifrit normal was a level 25 fight.... Garuda normal was 4-mannable. I'm most definitely not calling these end-game bosses. (Also, include moogles when you think primals, they count.)

Edited, Apr 19th 2013 9:00pm by Louiscool
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#50 Apr 19 2013 at 8:46 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
I expect they will do better than most developers since there is a lot riding on it but we'll see.

So all of those other, long development time, multi-million dollar MMORPGs just didn't have enough "riding on it" to justify making content?

Well, these arguments don't matter, really. There's always a surge of blind XIV-defence following lengthy announcements. I attribute it to people trying hard to maintain their level of excitement for the game and therefore stomping out opposition with particular force. But it always happens that, months later, that glow wears off, and those same people alter their expectations along with their tone - that is, until the next announcement. Then some time later they slip away from the game quietly and forget all about what they said on the forums.

(Oh, and this isn't necessarily direction at you specifically, Wint, even though I decided to quote your comment at the top.)

Edited, Apr 19th 2013 10:55pm by KaneKitty
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#51 Apr 19 2013 at 9:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
Ruisu wrote:

Louiscool wrote:
I'm pretty sure that having Primals as the BASE endgame content tells a lot. Those that played 1.0 can attest that Ifrit and Garuda gave many people trouble (Garuda particularly). Now add Titan, Odin, etc, and remember that the old content was pretty **** hard for casual and pugs, and then clearing the crystal tower, which we know nothing about other than it's so long that you can save your progress on which floor you're on and come back to it later, all to get INTO the labyrinth of Bahamut.
Mechanically Ifrit and Garuda were really simple. The problem was more lag/latency/delay-between-server-and-client f*cking people over so badly that stuff you were supposed to avoid as per the encounters' design would still hit you, exponentially increasing the chances of a wipe. That's pretty much why I didn't bother with hard modes in 1.0. I can accept being too slow to react and eating dirt for it, but I'm not bashing my head against a wall for getting hit with eruption or Garuda's frontal cone attack despite me having moved out of the way client-side.

Nael took this into account somewhat, but even then avoiding his crap was part guesswork and part anticipation.


If you didn't bother with Hard Modes, you have no idea what I'm talking about. I had hardly any trouble with lag, only animation lock. Ifrit normal was a level 25 fight.... Garuda normal was 4-mannable. I'm most definitely not calling these end-game bosses. (Also, include moogles when you think primals, they count.)
Maybe it's a bad habit from WoW, but I read up on pretty much everything I can for bosses, and watched videos of the hard mode fights while trying to learn the mechanics ahead of time. Garuda was pretty much Sapphiron meets Hagara the Stormbinder with Auriaya's frontal cone attack, with the clones and plumes to simulate a DPS race for the group. Ifrit was standard void zones with a charge attack (a la Icehowl) but with fixed positioning and direction.

Just because you had no problems with latency doesn't mean fight conditions were perfect for others. I could have probably managed with Ifrit, but I've seen Garuda on normal without the lag could wipe groups of 50s, and again, moving out of the way from her attacks and still getting hit by them on normal only makes me imagine the cement wall I'd be throwing myself at if I were to do it on hard. Nael, again, had a similar problem in that his lasers processed client side but would not deal actual damage up to 1.5 seconds after the animations finishid. Some individuals were willing to trudge through those, and I commend them for it--after all, they have their relics and white ravens to show for it.
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