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Letter From the Producer Live VI RecapFollow

#102 Apr 23 2013 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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electromagnet83 wrote:
apapertiger wrote:
I hope the hard work pays off and it succeeds. I'd like to see the game prove everyone wrong and make a come back. Even with those feelings, Yoshi P's not getting me very excited. I haven't paid much attention in the last year though, but what I have heard it seems like an average mmo with some Final Fantasy fan service.

It could still be great but I can't get hyped on that.


Even if I never played a game in my life I would have to be excited and thoroughly impressed with Yoshi P's performance from a purely business perspective. He has not only completely turned this thing around 180 degrees but he is also fundamentally changing the way Square-Enix does business. With the continuous flow of short writings, live letters, long letters from the producer, and the stream of live footage, in-game screens, etc. Yoshi is hyping and presenting the game in a manner that is a complete departure from what Square-Enix has been known for in the past which was the "we are so awesome we don't need to listen to our fans or hype or products," mentality. He is a young gamer with a lot of energy and focus and his hard work not only gives me a glimmer of hope for this title but for the company as a whole if he continues to work on other projects. A very, very exciting prospect.


Psst, that quote in your post isn't from me. I was quoting apapertiger.

Edited, Apr 23rd 2013 3:38pm by BartelX
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#103 Apr 23 2013 at 5:30 PM Rating: Good
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What I mean is that he isn't setting the game apart from other mmos except for the fan service. Telling me how your game is like all the others, isn't going to get me excited for your product. It just makes me wonder why I'm not on their product. I get more excited to hear how the product is different, what sets it apart from the pack.

And I know that WoW set this lofty bar that every MMO wants to achieve so they look at WoW. And borrow from it. But they should borrow from the ideals of WoW's design, how do we make this better.
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#104 Apr 23 2013 at 5:37 PM Rating: Good
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apapertiger wrote:
What I mean is that he isn't setting the game apart from other mmos except for the fan service. Telling me how your game is like all the others, isn't going to get me excited for your product. It just makes me wonder why I'm not on their product. I get more excited to hear how the product is different, what sets it apart from the pack.

And I know that WoW set this lofty bar that every MMO wants to achieve so they look at WoW. And borrow from it. But they should borrow from the ideals of WoW's design, how do we make this better.


The answer to that is quite clear. I blame the MMOs players. They are the ones who absolutely refuse to give anything a chance that is NOT a WoW clone. Yet then they complain that the MMO market has nothing new to offer. Well, Duh.
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#105 Apr 23 2013 at 5:45 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
What I mean is that he isn't setting the game apart from other mmos except for the fan service. Telling me how your game is like all the others, isn't going to get me excited for your product. It just makes me wonder why I'm not on their product. I get more excited to hear how the product is different, what sets it apart from the pack.


I think he's made it pretty clear that what's making this game different is that it's a complete Final Fantasy game, with the goal of incorporating elements of many games from throughout the franchise. To me, that definitely sets this game apart from everything else on the market.

Now, in terms of functionality, it's too early to know all the ways in which this game will be different. I'd say the system of grand companies/free companies, with linkshells still around, too, is something different. The group limit breaks will be different (although TESO is copying that, lol). Having access to all the jobs and classes on one character is different. Being able to change classes anytime by changing weapons is different. The game being built on a scalable game engine is different. Having the game available for the PS3, with people on different platforms playing together, is different.

Based on the End of an Era story, I'm optimistic that ARR's storyline will blow any other MMO out of the water... so that's different, too.

Anyway, I think Yoshi-P has done a fine job on all fronts.

EDIT: One more difference that I'm hoping to see from ARR is a finer balance between solo play and party play. In retrospect, Final Fantasy XI was too party heavy. However, newer games like Guild Wars 2 are way too soloable. I'm hoping that ARR provides more of a balance between soloing and partying, because a person's desire to play should never be hindered by a lack of people available to play with. I'm not aware of any other game that properly strikes this balance.

Edited, Apr 23rd 2013 4:51pm by Thayos
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#106 Apr 23 2013 at 6:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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The answer to that is quite clear. I blame the MMOs players. They are the ones who absolutely refuse to give anything a chance that is NOT a WoW clone. Yet then they complain that the MMO market has nothing new to offer. Well, Duh.


Now that's not fair, XIV 1.0 was pretty different from WoW, a lot of people gave it a chance..... it sucked.

An MMO doesn't have to be a clone of WoW in order to not be awful, but reinventing the wheel just to say you have something different is stupid.
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#107 Apr 23 2013 at 6:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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electromagnet83 wrote:
apapertiger wrote:
I hope the hard work pays off and it succeeds. I'd like to see the game prove everyone wrong and make a come back. Even with those feelings, Yoshi P's not getting me very excited. I haven't paid much attention in the last year though, but what I have heard it seems like an average mmo with some Final Fantasy fan service.

It could still be great but I can't get hyped on that.


Even if I never played a game in my life I would have to be excited and thoroughly impressed with Yoshi P's performance from a purely business perspective. He has not only completely turned this thing around 180 degrees but he is also fundamentally changing the way Square-Enix does business. With the continuous flow of short writings, live letters, long letters from the producer, and the stream of live footage, in-game screens, etc. Yoshi is hyping and presenting the game in a manner that is a complete departure from what Square-Enix has been known for in the past which was the "we are so awesome we don't need to listen to our fans or hype or products," mentality. He is a young gamer with a lot of energy and focus and his hard work not only gives me a glimmer of hope for this title but for the company as a whole if he continues to work on other projects. A very, very exciting prospect.





*Thanks BartelX for the correction.

Edited, Apr 23rd 2013 3:33pm by electromagnet83


This is a great point and one I think is getting overlooked anymore. The amount of communication from the developer is huge compared to days of old and, I would argue, from other developers in general. They do have a chance to make something the fans really want here.
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#108 Apr 23 2013 at 6:18 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
What I mean is that he isn't setting the game apart from other mmos except for the fan service. Telling me how your game is like all the others, isn't going to get me excited for your product. It just makes me wonder why I'm not on their product. I get more excited to hear how the product is different, what sets it apart from the pack.


EDIT: One more difference that I'm hoping to see from ARR is a finer balance between solo play and party play. In retrospect, Final Fantasy XI was too party heavy. However, newer games like Guild Wars 2 are way too soloable. I'm hoping that ARR provides more of a balance between soloing and partying, because a person's desire to play should never be hindered by a lack of people available to play with. I'm not aware of any other game that properly strikes this balance.

Edited, Apr 23rd 2013 4:51pm by Thayos


I felt like XIV 1.0 actually had a great balance. I solo'd the entire way to 50...but I didn't have to. With the guildleves you can party up or do them solo with relative ease. I felt like it made the game really enjoyable since I didn't have to DEPEND on others like I did in FFXI but could party if I wanted to, which many people did often just to make it more interactive and fun :)
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#109 Apr 23 2013 at 7:14 PM Rating: Excellent
You are right in that ffxiv 1.x made soloing to 50 possible, but it was incredibly boring. I am hoping that ARR Provides more engaging options.
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#110 Apr 23 2013 at 8:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Maybe i am to spoiled when it comes to story, but the end of an era, was not even impressive to me, it was basically a copy of how death wing sundered azeroth but with FF lore Instead. Tho it looked cool i'll give it that, but i'll take great story telling over graphics any day :/
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#111 Apr 23 2013 at 8:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
Maybe i am to spoiled when it comes to story, but the end of an era, was not even impressive to me, it was basically a copy of how death wing sundered azeroth but with FF lore Instead. Tho it looked cool i'll give it that, but i'll take great story telling over graphics any day :/

I agree. Story over graphics! Which is why the older FFs were so great! Graphics maybe lacking but story and music were some of the best imo
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#113 Apr 23 2013 at 9:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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it was basically a copy of how death wing sundered azeroth


That's interesting, I could have sworn that previous Final Fantasy titles featured giant dragons named Bahamut and various end-of-the-world scenarios, including one where the world is razed mid-game.

Maybe the two are actually independent stories after all? Or maybe WoW copied from Final Fantasy?

EDIT: On second thought, maybe nobody copied from anyone, and maybe all these stories just seem similar because good stories share so many common elements?

Edited, Apr 23rd 2013 8:32pm by Thayos
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#114 Apr 23 2013 at 9:38 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
... good stories...

Smiley: lol
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#115 Apr 23 2013 at 10:01 PM Rating: Default
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SaitoMishima wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Maybe i am to spoiled when it comes to story, but the end of an era, was not even impressive to me, it was basically a copy of how death wing sundered azeroth but with FF lore Instead. Tho it looked cool i'll give it that, but i'll take great story telling over graphics any day :/

I agree. Story over graphics! Which is why the older FFs were so great! Graphics maybe lacking but story and music were some of the best imo


This seems odd to me since I have always defended Final Fantasy graphics. The stories were well written, the music masterfully composed, and I have always personally felt the graphics were top notch as well. The landscapes they created were spectacular and, for example in Final Fantasy Viii, as much as people put it down, they did an amazing graphical innovation when they would have real-time cg playing in the background while your character moved freely on the foreground amongst other polygonal rendered objects...almost like a stage with props sporting a green screen as the backdrop. The story in it was great and so was the music. What makes the series special for me, is a combination of great storytelling, moving music, and top notch visuals that deliver an overall gameplay unlike any other. Even though they have lost a bit of that over the years I am wildly optimistic that* A Realm Reborn will become A Franchise Reborn!





*for me
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#116 Apr 24 2013 at 12:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
it was basically a copy of how death wing sundered azeroth


That's interesting, I could have sworn that previous Final Fantasy titles featured giant dragons named Bahamut and various end-of-the-world scenarios, including one where the world is razed mid-game.

Maybe the two are actually independent stories after all? Or maybe WoW copied from Final Fantasy?


They both copied the Bible. Smiley: lol

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#117 Apr 24 2013 at 12:10 AM Rating: Good
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#118 Apr 24 2013 at 7:16 AM Rating: Good
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electromagnet83 wrote:
SaitoMishima wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Maybe i am to spoiled when it comes to story, but the end of an era, was not even impressive to me, it was basically a copy of how death wing sundered azeroth but with FF lore Instead. Tho it looked cool i'll give it that, but i'll take great story telling over graphics any day :/

I agree. Story over graphics! Which is why the older FFs were so great! Graphics maybe lacking but story and music were some of the best imo


This seems odd to me since I have always defended Final Fantasy graphics. The stories were well written, the music masterfully composed, and I have always personally felt the graphics were top notch as well. The landscapes they created were spectacular and, for example in Final Fantasy Viii, as much as people put it down, they did an amazing graphical innovation when they would have real-time cg playing in the background while your character moved freely on the foreground amongst other polygonal rendered objects...almost like a stage with props sporting a green screen as the backdrop. The story in it was great and so was the music. What makes the series special for me, is a combination of great storytelling, moving music, and top notch visuals that deliver an overall gameplay unlike any other. Even though they have lost a bit of that over the years I am wildly optimistic that* A Realm Reborn will become A Franchise Reborn!





*for me


I think what is meant here is that, making great graphics shouldnt take away from the story. Spending more time more money or focusing only on graphics and then come up lacking in story and music. Though I think we can all agree, even if we dont like XIII, the cinematics were top of the line for its time. SE's graphics are almost always top of the line and high end.
#119 Apr 24 2013 at 8:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
it was basically a copy of how death wing sundered azeroth


That's interesting, I could have sworn that previous Final Fantasy titles featured giant dragons named Bahamut and various end-of-the-world scenarios, including one where the world is razed mid-game.

Maybe the two are actually independent stories after all? Or maybe WoW copied from Final Fantasy?

EDIT: On second thought, maybe nobody copied from anyone, and maybe all these stories just seem similar because good stories share so many common elements?

Edited, Apr 23rd 2013 8:32pm by Thayos

It's funny that Yoshida mentioned his feelings about FFXIV being more like WoW but being a Final Fantasy.
I remember reading some old article from Blizzard stating that Squaresoft is the company they love and are inspired by when it came to building WoW. ****, some of Blizzard's minigames during some quests are more Final Fantasy than FFXI in the context of being a Final Fantasy.
#120 Apr 24 2013 at 9:14 AM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
it was basically a copy of how death wing sundered azeroth


That's interesting, I could have sworn that previous Final Fantasy titles featured giant dragons named Bahamut and various end-of-the-world scenarios, including one where the world is razed mid-game.

Maybe the two are actually independent stories after all? Or maybe WoW copied from Final Fantasy?

EDIT: On second thought, maybe nobody copied from anyone, and maybe all these stories just seem similar because good stories share so many common elements?

Edited, Apr 23rd 2013 8:32pm by Thayos


Maybe you should play more games, before arguing with me ? Death wing scenario is a complete revision of Karafyrm scenario in EQ1, which btw if you did not play, was a prismatic dragon sealed into a tomb because of his fearsome power, he was dubbed the "Sleeper" and when players awoke him, he literally killed everybody within the entire zone, then went and destroyed everything on his path, and killed the dragon king, and then he just puff, went on his marry way to do some thinking in some cave..... Sounds Familiar.... A recently awoken dragon, destroys anything on it's path... then just vanishes for 5 years...... Hmmm! Interesting!

The differences between Karafyrm, Death Wing and Bahamut are that while karafyrm was the first dragon in a MMO, to be Unsealed and as a result caused destruction, but he only destroyed one zone, and was never used again as an event(Shame Sony!) Death Wing on the other hand, destroyed azeroth as we knew it, just from awakening, and then went and killed a few noobs across the world, giving Blizzard the excuse to reshape the world, that is basically what Bahamut is, the excuse for SE to reshape the world, other than that, is the same story, to the Letter! Now you can argue all you want about X final fantasy, or Y character, all you want, but the fact remains Blizzard did it first and did it better :) Unless you can name me one FF where bahamut was a world destroyer......

Yes nobody copied from anybody, just coincidences that was all Right ? Lmao! White knight... SE could have used the empire instead of behamut to sunder the world, and give it the excuse lore wise it needed, then have the dragons in isthar summon bahamut in ARR to fight the empire back, only to find out that behamut does not follow any mortals orders and BAM! Burns everybody up for giggles and goes into his cave to rethink what he has done, until we kill him for being a bad bad dragon. There are untold ways this could have been handled, yet they did choose one that has been done to death :)

TLTR: Get over it, blizzard did it first.
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#121 Apr 24 2013 at 9:18 AM Rating: Default
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sandpark wrote:
****, some of Blizzard's minigames during some quests are more Final Fantasy than FFXI in the context of being a Final Fantasy.



Mind= Blown
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#122 Apr 24 2013 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
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@Ostia and all those who fear a copy.....everything copies or borrows from everything. As a musician I know that ALL music is built on the ideas that preceded them, movie writers and directors copy the things they find most influential and successful, and game developers are no different. There is RARELY something truly unique and original....and even then it probably borrows like everyone else, only from something more obscure.
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#123 Apr 24 2013 at 9:25 AM Rating: Decent
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electromagnet83 wrote:
SaitoMishima wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Maybe i am to spoiled when it comes to story, but the end of an era, was not even impressive to me, it was basically a copy of how death wing sundered azeroth but with FF lore Instead. Tho it looked cool i'll give it that, but i'll take great story telling over graphics any day :/

I agree. Story over graphics! Which is why the older FFs were so great! Graphics maybe lacking but story and music were some of the best imo


This seems odd to me since I have always defended Final Fantasy graphics. The stories were well written, the music masterfully composed, and I have always personally felt the graphics were top notch as well. The landscapes they created were spectacular and, for example in Final Fantasy Viii, as much as people put it down, they did an amazing graphical innovation when they would have real-time cg playing in the background while your character moved freely on the foreground amongst other polygonal rendered objects...almost like a stage with props sporting a green screen as the backdrop. The story in it was great and so was the music. What makes the series special for me, is a combination of great storytelling, moving music, and top notch visuals that deliver an overall gameplay unlike any other. Even though they have lost a bit of that over the years I am wildly optimistic that* A Realm Reborn will become A Franchise Reborn!

*for me


The problem with FFVIII was, that even tho it's graphics where leaps and bounds beyond what VII pulled, the story was kinda garbage, even tho i loved it's love story, and everything, i have to admit it was very out there in terms of "WTF is this **** real?" good graphics help, but they are not essential to tell a good story, lunar was not ahead of it's time, yet it told an awesome story, Suikoden II was way inferior to VIII or VII or IX, yet it's story was leaps and bounds better, VI should stand no chance againts XIII.... yet we both know which is the better game and has the better storyline :)

This entire generation has been garbage as far as RPGS are concerned to much graphics, horrible story telling and gameplay, the only 3 games that have been any good, are Xenoblade, Last Storie, and Tales of Vesperia.
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#124 Apr 24 2013 at 9:40 AM Rating: Decent
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electromagnet83 wrote:
@Ostia and all those who fear a copy.....everything copies or borrows from everything. As a musician I know that ALL music is built on the ideas that preceded them, movie writers and directors copy the things they find most influential and successful, and game developers are no different. There is RARELY something truly unique and original....and even then it probably borrows like everyone else, only from something more obscure.


There is a huge difference between copying and borrowing some elements and making something new, Death wing scenario was based on the scenario laid in EQ, which was really really underused and not developed, they took the idea of an awakening dragon using a instant Zone Kill Abilitie, and transformed it into an awakening dragon not only destroying the zone in which he awoke from, but the entire world, and used it as an excuse to reshape it's game world, which is what SE did exactly to the letter. You guys are seriously way to defensive about everything, this reminds me of when killua said "They re-used monsters" and everybody jumped at him and called him a lair and a troll Smiley: lol Did they not used the same monsters .dats ? Oh yes they did :) Smiley: lol
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#125 Apr 24 2013 at 9:44 AM Rating: Default
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unfortunately text doesnt convey tone. No defensiveness here merely pointing out a fact. There arent many originals in any form of entertainment. In order to be successful you have to borrow enough from what is popular to make it familiar while adding your own spices, otherwise people just wont give it a chance.

Edited, Apr 24th 2013 12:16pm by electromagnet83
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#126 Apr 24 2013 at 10:06 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Maybe you should play more games, before arguing with me ?


Are you trying to tell me I should play WoW? Why?

"Blizzard did it first?"

So, are you trying to tell me that Blizzard invented the story of a powerful being being sealed away, then unleashed to wreak havoc on the land?

Did Blizzard also invent swords?


EDIT: Just to humor your argument that the WoW Deathwing story is the same as the ARR story, I looked up that storyline to compare. And, fact, THEY ARE NOT AT ALL THE SAME. The only thing similar is they each involve a dragon that alters the landscape. Again, I'm extremely confident in saying that Blizzard did not invent that concept.

Also, you really need to think more about making statements like this:

Quote:
that is basically what Bahamut is, the excuse for SE to reshape the world, other than that, is the same story, to the Letter!


Hate to break the news to you, but the Final Fantasy series may have been the first major gaming franchise to have a world-altering cataclysmic event, and this was when the boys at Blizzard were still in grade school. All the great Final Fantasy storylines center around the heroes attempting to stop a cataclysmic event from happening. And Bahamut, in case you aren't aware, is a significant character in most of the FF games.

So, to suggest that Blizzard totally invented the idea of an ancient dragon destroying the world -- and that Bahamut's role in a FF game is unusual -- is silly.

Edited, Apr 24th 2013 9:20am by Thayos
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#127 Apr 24 2013 at 10:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
Maybe you should play more games, before arguing with me ?


Are you trying to tell me I should play WoW? Why?

"Blizzard did it first?"

So, are you trying to tell me that Blizzard invented the story of a powerful being being sealed away, then unleashed to wreak havoc on the land?

Did Blizzard also invent swords?


Well besides playing more games, you should actually try and read what a person writes instead of just jumping into "WOW blablabla"

You should have played EQ :) Or Wow :)

Also stop it, my statement was correct, where the events on and end of an era, used by 2 other MMOS beforehand ? Yes they where. Period. Slice it as you like, it wont change the fact.
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#128 Apr 24 2013 at 10:35 AM Rating: Excellent
But the two stories are not the same. The plots are very different.

I even looked, just to do my due diligence... and I'm right.

I do agree with you though that Final Fantasy didn't invent the wheel, just like WoW or EQ didn't. Stories of dragons and cataclysmic events have been told since the dawn of time. In reality, most of the stories we know all stem from a small number of archetypes.

I've also played quite a few games during the... uh... 23 years or so I've been gaming. Trust me, I've played through enough storylines to see the similarities between all of them.


ONE MORE EDIT!

The difference between a good storyteller and an average storyteller is the ability to take these stories that have been told countless times in so many ways, and make them stand out as being memorable among the masses.

This is where SE really shines when compared to any other gaming company, Blizzard included. I'd say BioWare is up there too.

Edited, Apr 24th 2013 9:46am by Thayos

Edited, Apr 24th 2013 9:47am by Thayos
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#129 Apr 24 2013 at 10:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
SaitoMishima wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Maybe i am to spoiled when it comes to story, but the end of an era, was not even impressive to me, it was basically a copy of how death wing sundered azeroth but with FF lore Instead. Tho it looked cool i'll give it that, but i'll take great story telling over graphics any day :/

I agree. Story over graphics! Which is why the older FFs were so great! Graphics maybe lacking but story and music were some of the best imo


This seems odd to me since I have always defended Final Fantasy graphics. The stories were well written, the music masterfully composed, and I have always personally felt the graphics were top notch as well. The landscapes they created were spectacular and, for example in Final Fantasy Viii, as much as people put it down, they did an amazing graphical innovation when they would have real-time cg playing in the background while your character moved freely on the foreground amongst other polygonal rendered objects...almost like a stage with props sporting a green screen as the backdrop. The story in it was great and so was the music. What makes the series special for me, is a combination of great storytelling, moving music, and top notch visuals that deliver an overall gameplay unlike any other. Even though they have lost a bit of that over the years I am wildly optimistic that* A Realm Reborn will become A Franchise Reborn!

*for me


The problem with FFVIII was, that even tho it's graphics where leaps and bounds beyond what VII pulled, the story was kinda garbage, even tho i loved it's love story, and everything, i have to admit it was very out there in terms of "WTF is this sh*t real?" good graphics help, but they are not essential to tell a good story, lunar was not ahead of it's time, yet it told an awesome story, Suikoden II was way inferior to VIII or VII or IX, yet it's story was leaps and bounds better, VI should stand no chance againts XIII.... yet we both know which is the better game and has the better storyline :)

This entire generation has been garbage as far as RPGS are concerned to much graphics, horrible story telling and gameplay, the only 3 games that have been any good, are Xenoblade, Last Storie, and Tales of Vesperia.


And the series that bested the 3 games you listed even though they are extremely well done too.
Demon/Dark Souls series is the best rpg this gen period!
#130 Apr 24 2013 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
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Yoshi and his team basically brought FFXIV back from the grave, relatively quickly too. Whatever they've used, copied, re-invented from other games looks to be FinalFantasy-ized which I think is all good. Once we're all playing, those who need to leave can and will do so, because it's not for them. And that's to be expected with ANY game.
However...I think the real test down the road will be the first expansion. That's what will truly make FFXIV it's own game and different from the pack. So, I'm going to play this no matter what, for say at least a year? 18 mos? til then. That's long enough for me (for anybody) to decide either way.
That all said...I have the faith man!
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#131 Apr 24 2013 at 11:03 AM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
Maybe you should play more games, before arguing with me ?


Are you trying to tell me I should play WoW? Why?

"Blizzard did it first?"

So, are you trying to tell me that Blizzard invented the story of a powerful being being sealed away, then unleashed to wreak havoc on the land?

Did Blizzard also invent swords?


Well besides playing more games, you should actually try and read what a person writes instead of just jumping into "WOW blablabla"

You should have played EQ :) Or Wow :)

Also stop it, my statement was correct, where the events on and end of an era, used by 2 other MMOS beforehand ? Yes they where. Period. Slice it as you like, it wont change the fact.


Sorry to burst your bubble, Blizzard didn't invent world altering events, nor did Sony, nor did Square. There are tons of mythology stories about sleeping dragons that once awakened raze the land. Where do you think all these companies base a lot of their in-game lore? Acting like Blizzard or Sony or any other gaming company invented it is silly. They formulated an idea, and put it into a game.

Not to mention, as Thayos said, the stories of WoW and FFXIV are almost entirely different and unique. Yes, they share a common theme, but so do almost all rpg's. How many rpg's start off with a hero who has to save the world from a big baddie? How many revolve around a ragtag team of adventurer's who slowly unravel some wicked plot? How many have "end of days" like events in them? The answer is, almost all of them. It's how you tell the story that makes it unique and appealing. If you don't like the way FFXIV does it, that's fine. But don't pretend like you're some expert on who invented what in gaming, because it's pretty clear that you haven't got a clue.
#132 Apr 24 2013 at 12:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
But the two stories are not the same. The plots are very different.

I even looked, just to do my due diligence... and I'm right.

I do agree with you though that Final Fantasy didn't invent the wheel, just like WoW or EQ didn't. Stories of dragons and cataclysmic events have been told since the dawn of time. In reality, most of the stories we know all stem from a small number of archetypes.

I've also played quite a few games during the... uh... 23 years or so I've been gaming. Trust me, I've played through enough storylines to see the similarities between all of them.


ONE MORE EDIT!

The difference between a good storyteller and an average storyteller is the ability to take these stories that have been told countless times in so many ways, and make them stand out as being memorable among the masses.

This is where SE really shines when compared to any other gaming company, Blizzard included. I'd say BioWare is up there too.

Edited, Apr 24th 2013 9:46am by Thayos

Edited, Apr 24th 2013 9:47am by Thayos


Not the same huh.... You mean one is called death wing and the other one is called Bahamut ? Both where ancient terrors that where defeated at a point in the past of the game world by ancient civilizations, one was sealed in a meteor, the other one sealed himself in order to recover. Both are Dragons, both are actually the big bad Dragon in their respective games, both where used as the reason for the in-game change of the world, both came out, burned stuff and went home, both have controlled a major antagonist only to in the end reveal themselves as the main baddie.

Yes totally different Stories! Also please do not make me laugh, that is where SE Shines ? You mean Squaresoft ? Because SE has made a mockery of what Squaresoft was able to pull Off.
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#133 Apr 24 2013 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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sandpark wrote:
Ostia wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
SaitoMishima wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Maybe i am to spoiled when it comes to story, but the end of an era, was not even impressive to me, it was basically a copy of how death wing sundered azeroth but with FF lore Instead. Tho it looked cool i'll give it that, but i'll take great story telling over graphics any day :/

I agree. Story over graphics! Which is why the older FFs were so great! Graphics maybe lacking but story and music were some of the best imo


This seems odd to me since I have always defended Final Fantasy graphics. The stories were well written, the music masterfully composed, and I have always personally felt the graphics were top notch as well. The landscapes they created were spectacular and, for example in Final Fantasy Viii, as much as people put it down, they did an amazing graphical innovation when they would have real-time cg playing in the background while your character moved freely on the foreground amongst other polygonal rendered objects...almost like a stage with props sporting a green screen as the backdrop. The story in it was great and so was the music. What makes the series special for me, is a combination of great storytelling, moving music, and top notch visuals that deliver an overall gameplay unlike any other. Even though they have lost a bit of that over the years I am wildly optimistic that* A Realm Reborn will become A Franchise Reborn!

*for me


The problem with FFVIII was, that even tho it's graphics where leaps and bounds beyond what VII pulled, the story was kinda garbage, even tho i loved it's love story, and everything, i have to admit it was very out there in terms of "WTF is this sh*t real?" good graphics help, but they are not essential to tell a good story, lunar was not ahead of it's time, yet it told an awesome story, Suikoden II was way inferior to VIII or VII or IX, yet it's story was leaps and bounds better, VI should stand no chance againts XIII.... yet we both know which is the better game and has the better storyline :)

This entire generation has been garbage as far as RPGS are concerned to much graphics, horrible story telling and gameplay, the only 3 games that have been any good, are Xenoblade, Last Storie, and Tales of Vesperia.


And the series that bested the 3 games you listed even though they are extremely well done too.
Demon/Dark Souls series is the best rpg this gen period!


Bested how ? Demon souls/dark souls have not sold more than any of those named titles (Well maybe more than last storie) Story wise, Tales of vasperia and xenoblade are legues ahead of demon/dark souls, now if you are talking about gameplay, yeah i would say so, but nobody is talking about gameplay.
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#134 Apr 24 2013 at 12:53 PM Rating: Default
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BartelX wrote:
Sorry to burst your bubble, Blizzard didn't invent world altering events, nor did Sony, nor did Square. There are tons of mythology stories about sleeping dragons that once awakened raze the land. Where do you think all these companies base a lot of their in-game lore? Acting like Blizzard or Sony or any other gaming company invented it is silly. They formulated an idea, and put it into a game.


Probably, but it's very possible that it was WoW that prompted them to do it. Yoshi-P has said himself that ARR is just supposed to be World of Warcraft with Final Fantasy stuff in it.
#135 Apr 24 2013 at 1:08 PM Rating: Good
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As we've been over this before, I'm not going to go into another huge debate. I've never seen anything posted that says that, and until you can show me a link stating otherwise, that it just what you have inferred from him. Inference =/= fact.

Also, and granted its only been a few short hours that the media has been allowed to post info on the beta, but in that time I've seen nothing stating the game is a WoW clone re-skinned like you seem to think. There have been several articles posted, not all of them are even big fans of FFXIV, and there is almost no comparison to WoW other than that the game has successfully incorporated aspects of other mmo's to enhance the experience.

Ostia wrote:
Yes totally different Stories! Also please do not make me laugh, that is where SE Shines ? You mean Squaresoft ? Because SE has made a mockery of what Squaresoft was able to pull Off.


I don't think anyone is going to argue that Squaresoft has a better track record than SE, but from my perspective SE still does a considerably better job than Blizzard. I played FFXI through Abyssea and I played WoW through Cataclysm, and in my experience the stories don't even compare. FFXI had a deep, involved storyline that got more and more epic the farther you went. WoW... I can barely even remember the story in WoW. To me it was more like 80 levels of grinding quests and doing random dungeons, which was plenty fun for what it was. If there was a centralized story arch, it became so convoluted in the rest of the quests that I couldn't even pick it out.

Even 1.0 had a more fleshed out story than WoW in my opinion. That's not to say WoW sucked or anything, I actually liked the game for the most part, and think it was an innovator in a lot of ways. The storyline however, was not one of them for me.

Edited, Apr 24th 2013 3:17pm by BartelX
#136 Apr 24 2013 at 1:11 PM Rating: Default
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http://i.imgur.com/cjFSmgz.png

Yoshi-P has stated multiple times that he just wanted to create World of Warcraft with Final Fantasy in it.

I wouldn't be surprised if he used some World of Warcraft lore.

Edited, Apr 24th 2013 3:11pm by Killua125
#137 Apr 24 2013 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
However, when the original FFXIV was in development, the goal of the project was simply to make a game that was different from Final Fantasy XI. Yoshida feels that the creators didn't recognize that the global standard of MMOs had been significantly raised in recent years. He would have suggested a different path for the game—one that mirrored FFXI's own creation. "I think it would've been good if they tried seeing what happened if they turned World of Warcraft into Final Fantasy. So, because they tried only to make something that was 'different from FFXI,' they ended up with not much of anything."


It's amazing how you can take something out of context and make it sound how you want it to. The funny part is, that quote proves absolutely nothing. He said it would have been good if the old developer's tried making a WoW into a FF game, much like how FFXI was modelled on EQ. Yet you don't hear people whining that FFXI was an EQ clone. It doesn't say he made ARR into WoW with Final Fantasy. You just took it out of context to make it sound like that. In fact, later in the article:

Quote:
What was important in his eyes is how early RPGs borrowed the best elements from and influenced each other. That's how the genre advanced and made new games. "Unless you are a genius, you cannot make something completely new from nothing."


Can everyone agree that he's taken elements from WoW and put them into FFXIV? Absolutely. Does that make it a WoW clone? Absolutely not. Play the game, make an informed decision instead of reading into what a few quotes means, especially when you pull the quotes out of context to fit your agenda.
#138 Apr 24 2013 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
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Lol, Killua sounds like an MMO politician.
#139 Apr 24 2013 at 2:34 PM Rating: Excellent
LOL, please find a link where Yoshi-P says exactly that.

In the meantime, Yoshi-P never said that. What he said is he was inspired by several modern MMOs including WoW.

But by all means, please, search for that link until you find it!

Edited, Apr 24th 2013 1:42pm by Thayos
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#140 Apr 24 2013 at 3:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Here's what Yoshida really said:

Quote:
Yoshida feels that the creators didn't recognize that the global standard of MMOs had been significantly raised in recent years. He would have suggested a different path for the game—one that mirrored FFXI's own creation. "I think it would've been good if they tried seeing what happened if they turned World of Warcraft into Final Fantasy. So, because they tried only to make something that was 'different from FFXI,' they ended up with not much of anything."

"They should have said, 'Hey you, go play WoW for a year [for inspiration].'"

Yoshida then talked at some length about the origins and development of MMORPGs. How they developed from tabletop RPGs into games like Ultima and Wizardy—before moving to the online world. What was important in his eyes is how early RPGs borrowed the best elements from and influenced each other. That's how the genre advanced and made new games. "Unless you are a genius, you cannot make something completely new from nothing."


http://kotaku.com/5963155/new-final-fantasy-xiv-director-talks-about-what-went-wrong-with-the-original
#141 Apr 24 2013 at 3:34 PM Rating: Good
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When the battle changes came, someone in my LS described them as "a bad marriage between the WoW and FFXI battle system." I don't think I would call it a bad marriage, but I could see that. I also remember Yoshi-P's 1.xx having a lot of forum talk about the WoWification of the game. So do we really need a quote when he have his track record?

Also there isn't anything wrong with borrowing and building upon, that's how post industrialization works.
I think it benefits to point out differences. He talks a lot about features that are the norm in MMORPGs. Imagine if you were two or four months from the possible launch of the next iphone and all they were saying was it makes phone calls and has a screen (that you can touch!).

Yeah that stuff does need to get mentioned but it sort of glossed over.

EDIT: for better framing, imagine Apple was doing that for a phone 700,000ish people bought two and half years ago

Edited, Apr 24th 2013 5:50pm by apapertiger
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#142 Apr 24 2013 at 3:51 PM Rating: Excellent
I still see nothing remotely close to "WoW with Final Fantasy in it."

What I do see is exactly what I said above... that Yoshi-P was inspired by WoW (and other games, which isn't in that select quote) and required the development team at Square Enix to attune itself with what's considered "industry standard" today.

WoW fans need to get over themselves. The only reason why so many people still play WoW is that so many people still play WoW... at this point, it's like the circle-jerk of MMORPGs.
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#143 Apr 24 2013 at 4:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
The only reason why so many people still play WoW is that so many people still play WoW... at this point, it's like the circle-jerk of MMORPGs.


Smiley: laugh
Have tried and failed to say it better myself.
Smiley: laughSmiley: laughSmiley: laugh
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#144 Apr 24 2013 at 4:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:


Bested how ? Demon souls/dark souls have not sold more than any of those named titles (Well maybe more than last storie) Story wise, Tales of vasperia and xenoblade are legues ahead of demon/dark souls, now if you are talking about gameplay, yeah i would say so, but nobody is talking about gameplay.

Dark Souls sold about 2.3mil
http://www.gamespot.com/news/dark-souls-crosses-23-million-sales-6406891

Xeno sold about 830k
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/42966/xenoblade-chronicles/

Vesperia sold about 1 million total.
360
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/18652/tales-of-vesperia/

ps3
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/33204/tales-of-vesperia/

Last Story sold about 510k
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/42967/the-last-story/

I know VG is not 100% reliable nor does this make the souls series better in the eyes of every gamer.
One might say that the WII titles sold less due to piracy.
One might say that Dark Souls sold more because it released on more systems. I'm not sure if this 2.3 million is for every platform or what.

All I'm saying is that in my opinion the souls series was the best rpg franchise this generation. And I'm posting some sales figures.
#145 Apr 24 2013 at 4:20 PM Rating: Good
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FATEs
Levequests
Hamlet Defense
Guildhests
Grand Companies
Chocobo Fighting Companions
Combos
Party-based, tiered limit breaks
Unique FF-storyline
FF-based elements
Buildable Company Airships (not positive if this was actually said or just something I fantasized about so much I believe it to be true)

These were just the things I could think of off the top of my head that have been mentioned that differ from WoW. So far, only 20% of the content of the game has even been released in beta according to Yoshi-P himself. So there's 80% more stuff to flesh out the above ideas, as well as introduce new elements. At least give the game a chance for yourself before deciding what it is or isn't.


Edited, Apr 24th 2013 6:22pm by BartelX
#146 Apr 24 2013 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
FATEs
Levequests
Hamlet Defense
Guildhests
Grand Companies
Chocobo Fighting Companions
Combos
Party-based, tiered limit breaks
Unique FF-storyline
FF-based elements
Buildable Company Airships (not positive if this was actually said or just something I fantasized about so much I believe it to be true)

These were just the things I could think of off the top of my head that have been mentioned that differ from WoW. So far, only 20% of the content of the game has even been released in beta according to Yoshi-P himself. So there's 80% more stuff to flesh out the above ideas, as well as introduce new elements. At least give the game a chance for yourself before deciding what it is or isn't.


Edited, Apr 24th 2013 6:22pm by BartelX

I do not know why you are trying to convince the skeptics that XIV is different. Every game borrows **** from other games. We could type till our fingers break off. Yet the only thing that will convince or confirm their beliefs is a hands on. People try to throw that this game in a new skin comment. But I say that even if 90% of things were exactly the same.

It's the universe that makes games different where it really matters most in feeling different, if you seperate themepark from sandbox.
Difficulty means something different to each individual. Opinions are as*holes and everyone has both.
#147 Apr 24 2013 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
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sandbox wrote:
I do not know why you are trying to convince the skeptics that XIV is different.


I'm not trying to convince anyone. I understand that a lot of people's opinions won't be swayed one way or the other. But really, it's a forum, it's almost 7 pm, and I'm still at work. It gives me something to do to pass the time.

Edited, Apr 24th 2013 6:36pm by BartelX
#148 Apr 24 2013 at 4:36 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
[quote=sandboxI do not know why you are trying to convince the skeptics that XIV is different.


I'm not trying to convince anyone. I understand that a lot of people's opinions won't be swayed one way or the other. But really, it's a forum, it's almost 7 pm and I'm still at work. It gives me something to do to pass the time.[/quote]
Ah! That's something I can relate to. :)
#149 Apr 24 2013 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
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[quote=BartelX]FATEs
Levequests
Hamlet Defense
Guildhests
Grand Companies
Chocobo Fighting Companions
Combos
Party-based, tiered limit breaks
Unique FF-storyline
FF-based elements
Buildable Company Airships (not positive if this was actually said or just something I fantasized about so much I believe it to be true)

Except for building the airships I think all of these are in WoW but with different names... and limit breaks. Don't hold me to that though since I haven't touched WoW in like 5 years.
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#150 Apr 24 2013 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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I don't really like the fact that he mentioned relics will be easier to obtain in ARR. I mean, we already saw quite a lot of people run around with relic weapons in 1.0, make it even more common and the awe and mystery dissapears completely.
#151 Apr 24 2013 at 5:24 PM Rating: Good
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apapertiger wrote:
[quote=BartelX]FATEs
Levequests
Hamlet Defense
Guildhests
Grand Companies
Chocobo Fighting Companions
Combos
Party-based, tiered limit breaks
Unique FF-storyline
FF-based elements
Buildable Company Airships (not positive if this was actually said or just something I fantasized about so much I believe it to be true)

Except for building the airships I think all of these are in WoW but with different names... and limit breaks. Don't hold me to that though since I haven't touched WoW in like 5 years.


Now you're just being facetious... at least I hope. If not, I don't remember anything like these in WoW when I played.
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