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#77 Apr 22 2013 at 3:19 AM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty... thank you. That is exactly how I feel. I thought I was the only one.
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#78 Apr 22 2013 at 3:29 AM Rating: Good
Honestly, most of the stuff from XIV 1.0 was pretty quick to do but challenging at the same time. Ifrit, the story fights, Garuda, etc. If they keep stuff like that up, they'll be fine. It required teamwork, and some coordination, but OVERALL, you only needed 30mins-1 hour to get a few fights done. It was a good balance for non-solo content.

FFXI even had Nyzul which to me was good if you coordinated well with a few people. Log on at X time, hammer out 3-4 floors and that was it, see you again in 4 days! I have no doubt SE can once again manage to have a bit for both groups. I'm in the same boat as Thayos, have far less and appreciate casual content, but also understand the long, time wasting stuff needs to stay for that 16 year old in me who has that drive to play for 8 hours straight every day for the week.

I completed most of what XIV 1.0 had to offer, and felt like it was a challenge for some, but never felt like I wasted 3 hours + doing nothing (Old dynamis, I'm looking your way!). Stuff like the United We Stand fight was beyond fun and could easily be done within an hour once you had your part together. If they want to add Dynamis type events of old, I'm 100% for it. I won't have the time to do it, but, someone else will and possibly get enjoyment out of it. It was kind of neat thing in XI, seeing someone with a relic completed. You'd think to yourself, "Man they have a lot of time on their hands!" and just wish you could have it. I wasn't ****** or anything, actually found it kind of cool.

When you end up in a MMO where all the content is too easy, short and EVERYONE is running around in the same thing, it kind of makes it less exciting. FFXI had that appeal for awhile, where a certain piece of gear meant "Wow, he wasted tons of time to get that!". Sure, some got angry about it, mostly out of jealousy I think and it really created personalities to hate, like, etc, made the world feel alive. Everyone has stories from their server about X guy being a douche, or a great ls leader, etc and you lose some of that when a game goes 100% casual and everyone owns the same stuff. Everyone says FFXI has gone the easy route and there's no challenge left, yet to me there's still items in that game I have 0 chance at getting simply cause I don't have time. These people claim it would be easy to get, yet they don't own the items themselves. The challenge is still there, but just don't look for it.

Anyways, that's my rant for 5:30am.
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#79 Apr 22 2013 at 6:03 AM Rating: Good
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Well that's just it, right? Some people feel that just because the item exists everyone should be able to get it. While a few people can look at another's success, and be completely secure in the fact that they probably won't ever get that, or maybe take more time, there is a segment that dreams for some egalitarian MMO. I'm all for casual in terms of being able to get the ball rolling quickly. Those 3 hour wait times searching for a party can vanish. If they made an Absolute Virtue type fight, but you could fight it instanced anytime you want, that might be something I can get into. No need to put in a time wasting prerequisite, quest to unlock the fight should suffice. Make the content a challenge and accessible. Hardcore would get it faster due to more time devoted. Casuals will get it in time. The less skilled, or less interested would be SoL, unless they did something about it. I personally believe that a majority of people just want to feel progress.
#80 Apr 22 2013 at 7:50 AM Rating: Decent
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I wouldn't say I'm looking for the game to be casual, but I don't mind some casual elements such as: quicker travel, access to story content without a progression guild, stuff like that--not "free loot" or whatnot. I think most people of a certain age understand there's always going to be a discrepancy between the people that have 100 hours of playtime a week and those with 10, but a game requires a level of accessibility for players that have that 10 hours to devote.
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#81 Apr 22 2013 at 8:39 AM Rating: Good
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Kanekitty wrote:
I still want kick-you-in-the-pants, unforgiving, highly needy game worlds. To put it one way, the painter who sprains his hand isn't suddenly satisfied with colouring books.

I think, unfortunately for you, the atmosphere of MMO's has gone to a more casual model because there are more casual fans than hardcore fans. If you want an incredibly challenging game that is very unforgiving, go play EVE or Lineage 2 or something. Even if you don't have a ton of time, you can still challenge yourself greatly in those games in the limited amount you do have. That can fill your need for this super challenging, tactical style gameplay you are looking for.

Kanekitty wrote:
Numb and unfulfilling, like playing against children. How could I, knowing what I know and possessed of the same sets of skills, derive pleasure from some adapted, vacuous game?

I might not be crazy hardcore, but I've completed my share of endgame in many mmo's and I tend to believe that ARR will have enough challenge, for me at least. From the limited details released, Crystal Tower and Great Labyrinth of Bahamut certainly don't seem like a walk in the park. If they're big enough that you have to actually save your progress, I think it's safe to assume they will have some level of difficulty. And if that just doesn't cut it for you, there are certainly other games out there that might cater more to your mentality.
#82 Apr 22 2013 at 10:18 AM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
If they're big enough that you have to actually save your progress, I think it's safe to assume they will have some level of difficulty.


That's true, and I'm vaguely hopeful that it will be a Nyzul Isle-like event (from FFXI) with incremental progress and spurts of dedication over time. On the other hand, I sometimes worry that a designer like Yoshida is so afraid of upsetting even the most impatient player that such events would really amount to just queuing up for the "duty finder" and going through the motions.

Even though FFXIV is almost certainly not the game for me, it's purgatorial state is great for discussing game design and other philosophical issues. It's a joy to communicate with others in a challenging but respectful manner like this. In a strange way, FFXIV has already given me more entertainment than I could have expected... and that's rather a strange thought.
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#83 Apr 22 2013 at 11:29 AM Rating: Good
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Look out! You could end up like me.

I generally enjoy discussing game design more than actually playing games. I'm sure there are games that I would enjoy, but it's so hard to find them. It requires such a suspension of analysis as I'm unable to maintain.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

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#84 Apr 22 2013 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Look out! You could end up like me.

I generally enjoy discussing game design more than actually playing games. I'm sure there are games that I would enjoy, but it's so hard to find them. It requires such a suspension of analysis as I'm unable to maintain.


That's really sad
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#85 Apr 22 2013 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
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LebargeX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Look out! You could end up like me.

I generally enjoy discussing game design more than actually playing games. I'm sure there are games that I would enjoy, but it's so hard to find them. It requires such a suspension of analysis as I'm unable to maintain.


That's really sad


I wouldn't say sad so much as unfortunate. I do understand the mentality though, games seem to hold my interest far less than they used to, mainly because I've done it all before. Regardless, I haven't quite gotten to the point of being so jaded as to automatically start poking as many holes as I can into every potential game I plan on trying out. Personally, I'm of the mindset that I'd rather play it myself and make an object analysis with actual in-game evidence to back me up...but that's just me.
#86 Apr 22 2013 at 3:46 PM Rating: Decent
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KaneKitty wrote:
Yoshida 14:21 wrote:
...we have a created a clear path for progression through content and gear.

Some of the worst news I could think of, really. Everything seems very guided and signposted. :\

Yoshida 1:14:02 wrote:
The level design [of dungeons] actually plays a big part in being able to play casually... we would like players to use the duty finder as much as possible...

That most dungeons are specifically designed for auto-grouped "casual" play worries me a lot. On top of the highly structured and tiered nature of content mentioned earlier, it looks like a pretty uninspired, and highly standardized, system.

Yoshida 22:00 wrote:
Weather will have the biggest impact on fishing... Other than that there won't really be any other effects from weather.

Well that's... rather lacklustre, isn't it? But I guess weather effects might risk "inconveniencing" a handful of players, right? Smiley: rolleyes

Yoshida 1:25:11 wrote:
transportation will be as it was in 1.0, so players won't have to wait [on timetables].... If players have to wait just for the chance to participate [in an event on an airship], it might be a big letdown.

Are you serious? What sort of casual audience are you targeting that can't stand even a six minute wait for a boat to dock?

Yoshida 1:35:09 wrote:
...all open-world content will be implemented through the FATE system...

Well, having events is nice, but I think you're certainly missing something about world design to not have things like notorious monsters and rare spawning materials in strange, tucked-away places on the map. You can only "save the village from bandit raids" so many times before it all starts to feel contrived. Allowing players to actually explore, to discover things for themselves, and to just experience something without being guided and blatantly rewarded for taking part in a prefabricated event is essential not only for lasting appeal, but for forging genuine memories.

The game is seeming so structured, so cautious. It's like they're deathly afraid of doing anything that breaks from the predominant conception of a current-generation fantasy-themed MMORPG, so much so that they're going to create the exact kind of humdrum, tried-and-true, play-it-safe title that guarantees a failure in a post-WoW market...


All of this sounds great. If you don't like teleporting, just take the boats and airships (they do exist) for your own personal pleasure. I know I will from time to time, but I don't see why it should be forced on anyone, what difference does it really make if Joe wants to teleport everywhere and I prefer to ride my chocobo? The FATE system will give everyone things to do in the open world. If people continue to ask for NMs, they can add them in no problem and we can have both. Weather effects? I'm happy to have weather, and at least it does effect something, unlike most other games.

All of this stuff sounds like I can log on and have fun whenever I want. There will most likely be less inclusive content in the future and at endgame. As easy as people think WoW is, there was content that only 1-3% of the playerbase completed at a certain point out of the millions of players it had(and still does). Blizzard didn't want to spend months designing a raid that no one could experience so now we have heroic modes for the best of the best. A random casual absolutely can not beat a heroic raid while it's current. I believe ARR will follow a similar, as you said, tried and true formula.

Everything sounds gravy to me.

I'm in no way putting down your points, your opinion is just as valuable as anyone else. I just think the problem you're seeing is easily fixed with the addition of harder more exclusive content. It's not a fundamental destruction of the game. In my eyes at least.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2013 5:50pm by Transmigration
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#87 Apr 22 2013 at 4:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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I suppose my issue is that I can't alter my routes to satisfaction simply because I have less time than I did five years ago. Frankly, I don't see how anyone can, but I'll get to that later.



My routes to satisfaction haven't changed one bit. I simply enjoy various types of games.

As for FFXIV vs. the more hardcore FFXI, there was a lot about XI that I never liked. I've always maintained that I'm not really a hardcore gamer, just a casual gamer who takes his games very seriously. I personally think FFXIV will end up being way more up my alley than FFXI ever was, even though FFXI had so much content, that I was able to enjoy it immensely for a long time.
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#88 Apr 22 2013 at 5:22 PM Rating: Default
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There is a balance between XI and WOW! That is what i expected ARR to turn out into, but let's just say is not gonna be that way.
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#89 Apr 22 2013 at 5:31 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
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I suppose my issue is that I can't alter my routes to satisfaction simply because I have less time than I did five years ago. Frankly, I don't see how anyone can, but I'll get to that later.



My routes to satisfaction haven't changed one bit. I simply enjoy various types of games.

As for FFXIV vs. the more hardcore FFXI, there was a lot about XI that I never liked. I've always maintained that I'm not really a hardcore gamer, just a casual gamer who takes his games very seriously. I personally think FFXIV will end up being way more up my alley than FFXI ever was, even though FFXI had so much content, that I was able to enjoy it immensely for a long time.



FFXI was not hardcore. It was plain cumbersome in almost every aspect. As much as I enjoyed FFXI, it being extremely irksome to do simple tasks did not make it hardcore.
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#90 Apr 22 2013 at 5:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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FFXI was not hardcore. It was plain cumbersome in almost every aspect. As much as I enjoyed FFXI, it being extremely irksome to do simple tasks did not make it hardcore.


Agreed.

Something taking a long time to accomplish doesn't make it hard, just lengthy.

FFXI had a metric crapton of grind built in to the onion on its belt, which was the style at the time.

One of WoW's big advancements when it was released was to severely cut down on the grinding necessary to play the game, and that was a good thing. I definitely got to the point in FFXI when I realized I couldn't devote 8 hours at a time to accomplishing whatever I wanted to do that day; it's what made me quit, actually.

Please don't misunderstand. Just because a game lets you play it in pieces without having to make it another job doesn't mean that it has to be fischer price easy. There can still be difficult content that requires coordination and teamwork and that not everyone necessarily has the skill to do. That's ok. But there needs to be stuff for people to do that doesn't fall into that category and doesn't feel like a colossal waste of time.
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#91 Apr 22 2013 at 5:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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It was plain cumbersome in almost every aspect.


This is true!

But, the storyline was fantastic, and some of the fights were a lot of fun. Also, a lot of those "do this 500 times) activities were enjoyable, for awhile. The game also had some solid "casual" content such as ENMs, certain NMs, Garrison, etc., that kept linkshells like mine very busy.

I'd definitely argue that XI was hardcore, though. The time sinks required to get things done made this game more hardcore. The anytime item switching, allowing for the ultimate min/max environment, made this game hardcore. The fact that grinding jobs to lvl 75 (long ago, before ToAU) made the game hardcore. The fact that the community almost required certain jobs to have certain items/subjobs made this hardcore.

I know people have varying definitions of what makes a game hardcore, but I feel that XI clears the bar.
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#92 Apr 22 2013 at 5:46 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
It was plain cumbersome in almost every aspect.


This is true!

But, the storyline was fantastic, and some of the fights were a lot of fun. Also, a lot of those "do this 500 times) activities were enjoyable, for awhile. The game also had some solid "casual" content such as ENMs, certain NMs, Garrison, etc., that kept linkshells like mine very busy.

I'd definitely argue that XI was hardcore, though. The time sinks required to get things done made this game more hardcore. The anytime item switching, allowing for the ultimate min/max environment, made this game hardcore. The fact that grinding jobs to lvl 75 (long ago, before ToAU) made the game hardcore. The fact that the community almost required certain jobs to have certain items/subjobs made this hardcore.

I know people have varying definitions of what makes a game hardcore, but I feel that XI clears the bar.


True! Even with all the grind and cumbersome chores, XI was till on it's own right Hardcore.
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#93 Apr 22 2013 at 6:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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"Hardcore": Requiring great dedication, to the point of a willingness to accept great risks or abuse.

Not to be confused with "Hard": Requiring considerable skill or effort to accomplish.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#94 Apr 22 2013 at 6:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Hey, the dictionary even agrees with me Smiley: cool
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#95 Apr 22 2013 at 6:45 PM Rating: Default
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I guess we could say, yes it was hardcore but my point was also valid that even the normal grind content took a long time due to the party requirements to level, travel time, etc. All those things made it extremely time consuming which isn't necessarily hardcore, just annoying. But yea some of the end-game content I heard was epic hardcore. Never quite got there though :(
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#96 Apr 22 2013 at 7:04 PM Rating: Decent
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I would need to disagree. Yes, a lot of FFXI was 'difficult' because of how long everything took to set up. However, there were certainly plenty of very difficult battes (at a point anyway. I don't know what it's like now) and events, unrelated to the time spent.

I don't know how any of you could have played FFXI and make the statement that it was only hard because it was cumbersome. Of course, I played in my share of endgame Linkshells which abuse every current overpowered setup, but I still think there was quite a bit of challenging content which required really good coordination, awareness, etc. and often ended up in a failure even when everyone was trying their very best.

The time it took to set this stuff up just made it more stressful, but it wasn't the only difficult part. Nope.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2013 9:06pm by Killua125
#97 Apr 22 2013 at 7:29 PM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
I would need to disagree. Yes, a lot of FFXI was 'difficult' because of how long everything took to set up. However, there were certainly plenty of very difficult battes (at a point anyway. I don't know what it's like now) and events, unrelated to the time spent.

I don't know how any of you could have played FFXI and make the statement that it was only hard because it was cumbersome. Of course, I played in my share of endgame Linkshells which abuse every current overpowered setup, but I still think there was quite a bit of challenging content which required really good coordination, awareness, etc. and often ended up in a failure even when everyone was trying their very best.

The time it took to set this stuff up just made it more stressful, but it wasn't the only difficult part. Nope.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2013 9:06pm by Killua125


Agreed. When stuff first came out, it was absolutely not easy. Byakko was not an easy fight back when Sky was new. Kirin used to take groups hours to take down. I've seen more groups wipe on Cerberus and Khimaira than I'll care to count. Even stuff like Dynamis-Xarcabard with Dynamis Lord took a long time for people to figure out and beat. And of course Sea, with Absolute Virtue and then whatever expansion it was that had Pandemonium Warden...

When first released, almost all of the content in FFXI was very challenging. Yes, Abyssea turned most of the game into easy-mode, and even before that they nerfed some of the expansion quests into oblivion (bye bye difficult CoP), but when the stuff launched (and for usually a year or 2 minimum after) the battles were pretty hardcore.
#98 Apr 22 2013 at 7:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've always likened killing the old Dynamis Lord to NASA launching a rocket.

T minus 60 - Everyone here? Check, check, check
T minus 50- All MNKS start boosting
T Minus 40 - Start Soul Voice Rotation
T Minus 30 - Verify Chainspell Sequence and Stun Sequence
T Minus 20 - THF GO GO GO
T Minus 10 - Paladin VOKE
T Minus 9 ...
8... BLACK MAGES DON'T YOU NUKE YET...
7... BACKUP PALADIN VOKE ...
6... Take him more East!
5...
4...
3.... DD START
2....
1 FULL ATTACK!!!!!
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#99 Apr 22 2013 at 10:30 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
I would need to disagree. Yes, a lot of FFXI was 'difficult' because of how long everything took to set up. However, there were certainly plenty of very difficult battes (at a point anyway. I don't know what it's like now) and events, unrelated to the time spent.

I don't know how any of you could have played FFXI and make the statement that it was only hard because it was cumbersome. Of course, I played in my share of endgame Linkshells which abuse every current overpowered setup, but I still think there was quite a bit of challenging content which required really good coordination, awareness, etc. and often ended up in a failure even when everyone was trying their very best.

The time it took to set this stuff up just made it more stressful, but it wasn't the only difficult part. Nope.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2013 9:06pm by Killua125


Agreed. When stuff first came out, it was absolutely not easy. Byakko was not an easy fight back when Sky was new. Kirin used to take groups hours to take down. I've seen more groups wipe on Cerberus and Khimaira than I'll care to count. Even stuff like Dynamis-Xarcabard with Dynamis Lord took a long time for people to figure out and beat. And of course Sea, with Absolute Virtue and then whatever expansion it was that had Pandemonium Warden...

When first released, almost all of the content in FFXI was very challenging. Yes, Abyssea turned most of the game into easy-mode, and even before that they nerfed some of the expansion quests into oblivion (bye bye difficult CoP), but when the stuff launched (and for usually a year or 2 minimum after) the battles were pretty hardcore.


It's unfortunate that they made it so difficult to access that content. There were tons of fights I would have loved to attempt--even happily died 20 times in a day just for a chance to win. But I never had the opportunity to attempt most of the really cool encounters due to all the ridiculous farming requirements and pop timers. Even BC/KSNMs involved a lot of encounters that most people would never bother with due to the lack of valuable drops. There were some cool fights, though.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#100 Apr 23 2013 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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I think the biggest hurdle were the crazy bottlenecks that they put in, such as having to farm statues for hours to get an Ulli pop for a Byakko kill (against heavy competition), or camping the Tiamat window for 36 hours because it was a 2-3 day spawn. So yes, the whole time sink aspect of the game was pretty ridiculous, but the actual battles were still quite enjoyable and challenging once you got past the waiting/grinding. If they could considerably lessen the grind, but still keep the battles a challenge, that would be perfect for me. I wouldn't even mind HNM's and spawned stuff, if it spawned in a reasonable time-frame and isn't the only way to obtain certain gear.

I'd love to see all the drops available in dungeons also put on some HNM's. Give em a low drop rate but have them spawn every 6-12 hours and at random spots on the map so that no one shell completely monopolizes them. Camping and bot-claiming aside, I always thought HNM battles were extremely fun and a great way to build up coordination amongst a group.

Edited, Apr 23rd 2013 2:53pm by BartelX
#101 Apr 23 2013 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
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apapertiger wrote:
I hope the hard work pays off and it succeeds. I'd like to see the game prove everyone wrong and make a come back. Even with those feelings, Yoshi P's not getting me very excited. I haven't paid much attention in the last year though, but what I have heard it seems like an average mmo with some Final Fantasy fan service.

It could still be great but I can't get hyped on that.


Even if I never played a game in my life I would have to be excited and thoroughly impressed with Yoshi P's performance from a purely business perspective. He has not only completely turned this thing around 180 degrees but he is also fundamentally changing the way Square-Enix does business. With the continuous flow of short writings, live letters, long letters from the producer, and the stream of live footage, in-game screens, etc. Yoshi is hyping and presenting the game in a manner that is a complete departure from what Square-Enix has been known for in the past which was the "we are so awesome we don't need to listen to our fans or hype or products," mentality. He is a young gamer with a lot of energy and focus and his hard work not only gives me a glimmer of hope for this title but for the company as a whole if he continues to work on other projects. A very, very exciting prospect.





*Thanks BartelX for the correction.

Edited, Apr 23rd 2013 3:33pm by electromagnet83
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