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Kotaku.com article for Dragon's CrownFollow

#1 Apr 23 2013 at 11:18 AM Rating: Good
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Ok it is not a FF XIV related thread but i read the article and it got me into thinking and would want to hear your opinion as well

The said article is this one http://kotaku.com/the-real-problem-with-that-controversial-****-video-ga-478120280?fb_action_ids=10151533986537092&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map={%2210151533986537092%22%3A461790517232532}&action_type_map={%2210151533986537092%22%3A%22og.likes%22}&action_ref_map=[]

You can read it up but the summary is that the writer in a previous article pointed out that the design of the sorceress was bad too sexist and it looked like was designed by a 14 year old. After he wrote that the artist George Kamitani that you might know posted a new art in his facebook with three burly, bearded men embracing one another. Clearly we see were Kamitani was taking this. In all honesty i believe it was a simply joke and also maybe to show he was offended by comparing his work to a 14 yr old boy. Nevertheless i laughed and not in a bad way.

At general he says that while the art is gorgeous he believes that its wrong to draw this things only because he feels its embarrassing and wouldn't want to play it in public. He also pointed out that there is a sexist problem in the gaming industry.

In all honesty do you agree with him? Yes sure sometimes some artist go overboard (in both male and female design) but i never thought it was annoying. Ok sometimes maybe but it will depend from the theme of the game etc. He also mention in a way that the only people playing games are in the "ugly club" or i will go farther ahead and say the boys/men with no life. That is, now days not accurate and i believe many will agree here. I am not saying that they aren't there as well, but i believe that the game community has evolved since then.
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#2 Apr 23 2013 at 11:47 AM Rating: Good
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If a game has to rely on trampy character designs to draw an audience, then I probably wouldn't play it. A game can have a **** female lead, but the underlying game still needs to be strong enough to be enjoyable on its own merits. (Look at Portal and the majority of the Tomb Raider games.)
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#3 Apr 23 2013 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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Not only that look at mirror's edge, that was one of my favorite games, or you want some more metroid prime. Yes sure if the game has no depth and rely on characters like that is one thing but why should be annoyed if my character is a h@t woman or a an awesome dude. And we get the h@t girl/man in the end.

What i believe is that depending the games theme, i will not mind some more....revealing designs but only if they go along with the rest of game.
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#4 Apr 23 2013 at 11:59 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't agree with the writer at all.

His original comment comparing the artist to a 14-year-old boy was inappropriate. The character designs are all silly - not just that one.

Kotaku in general is just a sleazy sensationalist website with very untalented 'writers' who sling **** and bully. I very rarely visit the site anymore.

This isn't the first time game creators have responded. It's easy to get offended when Kotaku uses personal attacks.against these people,

"Kotaku is to reporting what yelling is to singing." - Markus Persson, creator of Minecraft, after being insulted by Kotaku.

"Journalism? Ha ha." - Hideki Kamiya, director of Bayonetta and Devil May Cry, after being insulted by Kotaku. "douche bags."
#5 Apr 23 2013 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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I think the real question is: Would it be better if art like this didn't exist in video games, or is it just a shame that there's so much sexism alive and well in the world today?

I appreciate the art direction aesthetically. It's a symptom of the problem, comparatively insignificant as a cause.
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#6 Apr 23 2013 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't think that any of the character models in Dragon's Crown are really being made as 'eye candy'. They are all comical, joke characters, and I don't think the intent behind the Sorceress is to give male players a hard-on.

It's juvenile, but so are all the character designs in the game... male & female. I think sexism is a big problem in games, especially with character design... but we really need to pick our battles here.

In this case, the writer is not being logical and trying to drag artistic freedom through the mud. That's my opinion.

Kotaku had nothing but positive things to say about TERA Online, which features female characters in basically no clothing, while the males all get cool armor.

Edited, Apr 23rd 2013 2:31pm by Killua125
#7 Apr 23 2013 at 2:05 PM Rating: Decent
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I think the bigger problem is the overuse of the word "sexism" and its use as an attack against media creators. Let us not forget that the only reason this song exists is because the guy who made it used to be criticized for having only beautiful women in his music videos, and his response was a video with him and only him in it.
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#8 Apr 23 2013 at 2:23 PM Rating: Default
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Catwho wrote:
If a game has to rely on trampy character designs to draw an audience, then I probably wouldn't play it. A game can have a **** female lead, but the underlying game still needs to be strong enough to be enjoyable on its own merits. (Look at Portal and the majority of the Tomb Raider games.)


Agreed. And not to tramp on anyone or offend but games give us creators the chance to create perfection. Would anyone want to play a game where the lead is a morbidly obese man in a wheelchair? No not at all. Because like it or not, that isn't perfection. And I dont' intend to step on anyone who isn't gorgeous or who has disabilities with that statement- certainly I have no room to talk - but why would we take the time and effort to create a game model that unpleasing to the eye? Women are going to be **** and beautiful and the men are going to all be beefy, manly heroes because that is what we want to play as and furthermore, that's what sells....
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#9 Apr 23 2013 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ruisu wrote:
I think the bigger problem is the overuse of the word "sexism" and its use as an attack against media creators. Let us not forget that the only reason this song exists is because the guy who made it used to be criticized for having only beautiful women in his music videos, and his response was a video with him and only him in it.


But the song is epic and awesome all the same.

Also, I think Dahler Mehndi was convicted of a Ponzi scheme or somesuch a few years back. Smiley: frown

In the comments of that article, they bring up the point that many video games lack depth in their female characters, and that's where the real sexism lies. You can have super ultra **** female characters, but they need to have some meat to their story for them to be believable. I'm thinking of Major Kusonagi from Ghost in the Shell. Yeah, she has several hundred pinup illustrations of her on posters, but her character is also richly deep and nuanced in her series (her struggles with her own humanity as a cyborg, etc.) And her primary outfit is suitable for her job - as a cop. (The swimsuits, not so much.)

Too few modern female video game characters are written well.
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#10 Apr 23 2013 at 2:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
In the comments of that article, they bring up the point that many video games lack depth in their female characters, and that's where the real sexism lies. You can have super ultra **** female characters, but they need to have some meat to their story for them to be believable. I'm thinking of Major Kusonagi from Ghost in the Shell. Yeah, she has several hundred pinup illustrations of her on posters, but her character is also richly deep and nuanced in her series (her struggles with her own humanity as a cyborg, etc.) And her primary outfit is suitable for her job - as a cop. (The swimsuits, not so much.)

Too few modern female video game characters are written well.
Oh, I definitely agree that design is less of an issue and presentation is where the real problem comes in.

Few writers in general have hit that right balance with female characters, as too many tend to portray their female characters as weaker than their male counterparts or simply make the males inept and useless to help the females shine. That's only one of several issues in character development that give way to the use of the word sexism.

Perhaps it's my age showing, but I've noticed a general trend in games where developers care more about the player directly relating to the main character over everything else (best example of this being Final Fantasy XII), whereas we used to have a good variety of protagonists and characters in earlier console generations. With this in mind, less emphasis on the female characters or putting them in as fanservice may stem from that overt concern.

Overall, I'd like to have meat to the story of the characters regardless of their gender. That's what ends up making a story good, IMO.
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#11 Apr 23 2013 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
I think the real question is: Would it be better if art like this didn't exist in video games, or is it just a shame that there's so much sexism alive and well in the world today?


I think a better question is, would a woman have drawn the sorceress the same way? Isn't the problem that in video games women are often portrayed how men would like them portrayed and not how women would want to portray themselves? How are girls supposed to feel at home in a game if the choice of characters are not people they can relate to?

I don't know any woman who would say, "We're off to fight a dragon? Let me slip into my chainmail bikini!" But that seems to be the consensus among in-game girls these days...
#12 Apr 23 2013 at 6:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
Ruisu wrote:
I think the bigger problem is the overuse of the word "sexism" and its use as an attack against media creators. Let us not forget that the only reason this song exists is because the guy who made it used to be criticized for having only beautiful women in his music videos, and his response was a video with him and only him in it.


But the song is epic and awesome all the same.

Also, I think Dahler Mehndi was convicted of a Ponzi scheme or somesuch a few years back. Smiley: frown

In the comments of that article, they bring up the point that many video games lack depth in their female characters, and that's where the real sexism lies. You can have super ultra **** female characters, but they need to have some meat to their story for them to be believable. I'm thinking of Major Kusonagi from Ghost in the Shell. Yeah, she has several hundred pinup illustrations of her on posters, but her character is also richly deep and nuanced in her series (her struggles with her own humanity as a cyborg, etc.) And her primary outfit is suitable for her job - as a cop. (The swimsuits, not so much.)

Too few modern female video game characters are written well.


I loved that show Smiley: thumbsup

Major Kusonagi was awesome.
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#13 Apr 23 2013 at 7:07 PM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
How are girls supposed to feel at home in a game if the choice of characters are not people they can relate to?
The same way boys are supposed to feel at home when the choice of characters involve examples of the pinnacle of athelticism and endurance instead of someone they can relate to. I'm not 6 feet tall with bulging muscles and a nice tan. I'm not tall-and-lanky with an ikemen face. I don't even have a pretty or smooth-sounding voice.

Yet I didn't mind playing the barbarian or the smooth-talker thief. I wasn't offended by tall dark and handsome characters, or the stereotypical lone wolf guy that doesn't connect to anyone. You give me a protagonist or a set of characters and I go with it, regardless of what they look. I don't feel like less of a man based on character designs, so I have trouble understanding and relating to your comment.

Edited, Apr 23rd 2013 9:07pm by Ruisu
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#14 Apr 23 2013 at 7:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, I've lost 25lbs since being my heaviest last fall, but I'm definitely not what most MMO's think of as a perfect specimen Smiley: thumbsup

However I'm not denying there is definitely an assumption about your gender when you're a gamer, and what catering is done to that assumption can get out of hand sometimes.
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#15 Apr 23 2013 at 9:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Ruisu wrote:
Xoie wrote:
How are girls supposed to feel at home in a game if the choice of characters are not people they can relate to?
The same way boys are supposed to feel at home when the choice of characters involve examples of the pinnacle of athelticism and endurance instead of someone they can relate to. I'm not 6 feet tall with bulging muscles and a nice tan. I'm not tall-and-lanky with an ikemen face. I don't even have a pretty or smooth-sounding voice.

Yet I didn't mind playing the barbarian or the smooth-talker thief. I wasn't offended by tall dark and handsome characters, or the stereotypical lone wolf guy that doesn't connect to anyone. You give me a protagonist or a set of characters and I go with it, regardless of what they look. I don't feel like less of a man based on character designs, so I have trouble understanding and relating to your comment.

Edited, Apr 23rd 2013 9:07pm by Ruisu


It's not the body image aspect that's the problem. There's enough real life sabotage on that front as it is.

If I designed a game where all the male characters were well groomed, wore frilly shirts, had long hair tied back with a pink ribbon, were always polite to everyone they met, were perfect dancers, and never failed to rescue kittens in danger, I'm sure you'd find some men who were delighted with this portrayal. But I have the feeling most wouldn't care for it much.

Games where female characters show up dressed as strippers at a knife fight are pretty much like that to women. Some maybe okay with it, and I wouldn't deny them that, but most just aren't going to be able to relate, and it won't be as fun and inclusive as it could be.
#16 Apr 23 2013 at 10:15 PM Rating: Good
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It just isn't realistic to us. Boobs come in multiple sizes. You're not going to be bra-less like that sorceress with boobs that big - no one larger than a B cup goes outside without support. (And if they do, they look pretty strange and saggy.) The more athletic you are with big jugglies, the more strapped down you're going to be in any kind of exertion.

XI's sports bras for mithra warriors may not be a man's vision of a **** warrior kitten, but it was probably the most accurate. (And XI's swimsuits only increased CHR at most.)
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#17 Apr 23 2013 at 10:26 PM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
Kachi wrote:
I think the real question is: Would it be better if art like this didn't exist in video games, or is it just a shame that there's so much sexism alive and well in the world today?


I think a better question is, would a woman have drawn the sorceress the same way? Isn't the problem that in video games women are often portrayed how men would like them portrayed and not how women would want to portray themselves? How are girls supposed to feel at home in a game if the choice of characters are not people they can relate to?

I don't know any woman who would say, "We're off to fight a dragon? Let me slip into my chainmail bikini!" But that seems to be the consensus among in-game girls these days...


I have to point out that within many ideologies, we also ignore "natural" reality. I don't know any woman who would say, "We're off to fight a dragon." Period. I do see a woman asking a man to do so, or telling the man how the dragon offended her, so he will rush off to do so on her behalf. While our first reaction would be to state, "I know plenty women who blah blah." Let's remember that there is a census indicating which gender typically gravitates towards the most dangerous/least dangerous professions. That's just the way it is, but one group just seems to complain more than the other.

When a person creates a story, as long as it isn't insanely offensive, I ride with it. (I have yet to encounter something insanely offensive in a game) I will however agree with females, that a woman doesn't need to have on something skimpy to fulfill her role, nor should it define her entirely. I enjoyed the female cast of Uncharted. I also enjoyed the new Tomb Raider. For her size and weight, Lara bested men twice her size, with the aid of her wits and items.She would strangle them with her bow, would have to blind them with dirt, and weaken their defenses by hitting their knees. The combat was very realistic, and I was relieved it didn't emphasize "girl power." Her accomplishments were her own, and she earned them. Omg her friend was very useless

To be quite honest, I'd be very excited to see genuine female inspired creativity in the gaming world. You asked about how a woman would draw a sorceress. Most of the ideas we work with today, were created by males. So a female artist would still be working within a male created universe. Simply giving a feminine twist to something, is hard for many to accept.

Ruisu wrote:
I think the bigger problem is the overuse of the word "sexism" and its use as an attack against media creators. Let us not forget that the only reason this song exists is because the guy who made it used to be criticized for having only beautiful women in his music videos, and his response was a video with him and only him in it.


I was a very perplexed when I found out that God of War Ascension had to change a trophy title from, "Bros before hos." Adam called it misogynistic. After all the gut spilling, brain exposing, and decapitations, that's what they got offended by. It's hard to take anything seriously when it comes to sexism. prejudice or discrimination based on ***; especially : discrimination against women Smiley: rolleyes Not something I'd campaign over, just smile at.

When people carelessly throw around the word sexism, it cheapens the word and people don't take it seriously. Conveniently, when people get tired of hearing it and lash out, it gives a "certain group" all the validation to say, "See? look at how sexist and angry they are!" There is too much dishonesty, and not enough people from BOTH genders speaking out against it. We don't even realize that we're being policed by a minority.Smiley: disappointed

Overly muscular man, overly **** woman. They both exist in games. Seems equal to me. I think it's reasonable that people want more depth for the female characters. (It would be nice if people would focus on this alone) I have no doubt that the female developers on the naughty dog staff, played a vital role in giving Chloe and Elena life. Maybe if we had more women in game development, they can lend perspective. The reality? Women don't usually want to get into those fields, so most of the time we get the male only perspective. Hopefully that changes in the future. I think it's very wrong for women to ask men to change while not even being interested in the field. Or women who don't want to be developers, force other women into that field, just because they think more women should be there. (Like someone telling you how to decorate your house, even though they don't live there. Or force you into a neighborhood that they won't even live in.) Women in Japan carved a name for themselves by becoming manga artists themselves (Shoujo). They even created a female only group. (Some how, I doubt men are crying sexism over this) Men and women enjoy different things, and it's time to stop pretending that we're the same. Embrace and respect each other's differing interests.

Both genders **** me off when it comes to sexism. Men and their ever so thirsty need for ***. Women for being professional victims. There's some equality for your ***!




#18 Apr 23 2013 at 10:33 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, she has several hundred pinup illustrations of her on posters, but her character is also richly deep and nuanced in her series (her struggles with her own humanity as a cyborg, etc.) And her primary outfit is suitable for her job - as a cop. (The swimsuits, not so much.)


Bah, she looks like Liu Kang with boobs (in my opinion).
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#19 Apr 24 2013 at 10:53 AM Rating: Decent
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I'd agree that the bigger problem is with how women are portrayed, not how they look, e.g., when women are meek, brainless, and only exist to be saved. But it's a form of entertainment and expression. Tropes like the hero saving the princess and appeals to aesthetic like women with unrealistically big boobs and men with unrealistically big muscles are going to persist. As in most cases, the problem is not the presence of these, but the wider absence of alternatives. You can't whip out a "Don't play this," or "don't make games like this," card without informing an alternative.

Game designers don't make games for girls because most game designers aren't girls. Not enough girls go into the programming jobs needed to give an equal voice to their wants in game design. And parents don't press upon their girls to play "real games" or learn to use computers, etc. That's what I mean when I say that there's a problem of sexism, but characters drawn with big boobs is a symptom more than a cause.

Arguably the violent culture of video games is another problem altogether which creates this divide.

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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

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Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#20 Apr 24 2013 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Penny Arcade's strip today was about this subject:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/04/24
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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