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#27 Apr 28 2013 at 9:05 PM Rating: Good
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Fast fighting for a long period of time does take away from communication.


Voice communication fixes that. I'd personally rather have faster combat with more difficult encounter mechanics, even if it means I have to give up communicating via the chat window.

And even so.. with a 2-3 second GCD or whatever Wint said it was in the other thread, you don't have a lot of time to type anything without ******** up your rotation. A couple highly abbreviated words at best.
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#28 Apr 28 2013 at 9:28 PM Rating: Decent
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SaitoMishima wrote:
Man.. It's kind of annoying that phase 3 starts an entire month later.. That is so far off from what the road map says. I know it said that it was subject to change but a whole month?? Not cool. Although its annoying, I rather a polished game than one chalked full of bugs etc. Do what you have to do SE/Sony.

Also I find it interesting that Yoshi-p thinks GCD was too long. Fast fighting for a long period of time does take away from communication. Watching the party fight in that video they released earlier, can you even stop to communicate without it messing up DPS? I personaly dont mind it being faster or slower, but I can see people being mad about it.

Aside from the few negatives, I am glad phase 3 opens up more content. Also getting a release date will be cool. Also, cant wait to see the new videos they are putting together! Very excited


ummm phase 2 ended this weekend.. phase 3 is supposed to start a mid may.. so roughly the 2nd week of may according to the roadmap theres 1-2 weeks between each phase for debugging so unless im missing something the start of phase 3 is still within the timeline outlined in the roadmap... unless you wanna point out something that suggests otherwise
#29 Apr 28 2013 at 9:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Fast fighting for a long period of time does take away from communication.


Voice communication fixes that. I'd personally rather have faster combat with more difficult encounter mechanics, even if it means I have to give up communicating via the chat window.

And even so.. with a 2-3 second GCD or whatever Wint said it was in the other thread, you don't have a lot of time to type anything without ******** up your rotation. A couple highly abbreviated words at best.



who talked in teh middle of battle son FFXI? fropmom what i recall all teh talking was done BEFORE a fight (to explain strategy and whatnot if there was one) and if it was just an exp party then talking was done between pulls... I dont remember two many istances where ppl stopped fighting or let teh game auto attack during fighst to type up messages
#30 Apr 28 2013 at 9:38 PM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
SaitoMishima wrote:
Man.. It's kind of annoying that phase 3 starts an entire month later.. That is so far off from what the road map says. I know it said that it was subject to change but a whole month?? Not cool. Although its annoying, I rather a polished game than one chalked full of bugs etc. Do what you have to do SE/Sony.

Also I find it interesting that Yoshi-p thinks GCD was too long. Fast fighting for a long period of time does take away from communication. Watching the party fight in that video they released earlier, can you even stop to communicate without it messing up DPS? I personaly dont mind it being faster or slower, but I can see people being mad about it.

Aside from the few negatives, I am glad phase 3 opens up more content. Also getting a release date will be cool. Also, cant wait to see the new videos they are putting together! Very excited


ummm phase 2 ended this weekend.. phase 3 is supposed to start a mid may.. so roughly the 2nd week of may according to the roadmap theres 1-2 weeks between each phase for debugging so unless im missing something the start of phase 3 is still within the timeline outlined in the roadmap... unless you wanna point out something that suggests otherwise



If you look at the article again, they've edited it to say that that statement was "rectified" on say two Nd gives a link to it. It'll mention that the first of June is when phase 3 will commence.
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#31 Apr 28 2013 at 9:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Fast fighting for a long period of time does take away from communication.


Voice communication fixes that. I'd personally rather have faster combat with more difficult encounter mechanics, even if it means I have to give up communicating via the chat window.

And even so.. with a 2-3 second GCD or whatever Wint said it was in the other thread, you don't have a lot of time to type anything without ******** up your rotation. A couple highly abbreviated words at best.


Im almost positive though that Yoshi said ARR doesnt support voice chat.. So in order to communicate durring battle I have to use another system? what if im playing PS3? Also, I like fast paced fighting. But ive seen alot of people who dnt for this reason. I remember playing FFXI and being able to type while fighting. Either way I dont mind, but i see many people complaining about t unfortunately
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#32 Apr 28 2013 at 9:55 PM Rating: Decent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
SaitoMishima wrote:
Man.. It's kind of annoying that phase 3 starts an entire month later.. That is so far off from what the road map says. I know it said that it was subject to change but a whole month?? Not cool. Although its annoying, I rather a polished game than one chalked full of bugs etc. Do what you have to do SE/Sony.

Also I find it interesting that Yoshi-p thinks GCD was too long. Fast fighting for a long period of time does take away from communication. Watching the party fight in that video they released earlier, can you even stop to communicate without it messing up DPS? I personaly dont mind it being faster or slower, but I can see people being mad about it.

Aside from the few negatives, I am glad phase 3 opens up more content. Also getting a release date will be cool. Also, cant wait to see the new videos they are putting together! Very excited


ummm phase 2 ended this weekend.. phase 3 is supposed to start a mid may.. so roughly the 2nd week of may according to the roadmap theres 1-2 weeks between each phase for debugging so unless im missing something the start of phase 3 is still within the timeline outlined in the roadmap... unless you wanna point out something that suggests otherwise


Phase 3 doesnt start till June..

Edit: Also, werent you the same one who just told someone they need to "read" the article? lol


Edited, Apr 28th 2013 11:57pm by SaitoMishima
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#33 Apr 28 2013 at 10:04 PM Rating: Decent
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SaitoMishima wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
SaitoMishima wrote:
Man.. It's kind of annoying that phase 3 starts an entire month later.. That is so far off from what the road map says. I know it said that it was subject to change but a whole month?? Not cool. Although its annoying, I rather a polished game than one chalked full of bugs etc. Do what you have to do SE/Sony.

Also I find it interesting that Yoshi-p thinks GCD was too long. Fast fighting for a long period of time does take away from communication. Watching the party fight in that video they released earlier, can you even stop to communicate without it messing up DPS? I personaly dont mind it being faster or slower, but I can see people being mad about it.

Aside from the few negatives, I am glad phase 3 opens up more content. Also getting a release date will be cool. Also, cant wait to see the new videos they are putting together! Very excited


ummm phase 2 ended this weekend.. phase 3 is supposed to start a mid may.. so roughly the 2nd week of may according to the roadmap theres 1-2 weeks between each phase for debugging so unless im missing something the start of phase 3 is still within the timeline outlined in the roadmap... unless you wanna point out something that suggests otherwise


Phase 3 doesnt start till June..

Edit: Also, werent you the same one who just told someone they need to "read" the article? lol


Edited, Apr 28th 2013 11:57pm by SaitoMishima


well feel free to point out where the article says june because according to the TCs post the only mention of phase 3 is that it might be "delayed" depending on PS3/sony certification.. nowhere in the TCs post is June mentioned. So Im sure I can read but clearly you must be reading something Im not reading so by all means point me in the right direction.


edit: i found it its in an ENTIRELY different artcile from teh one the OP showed so of course i didnt read/see that.. by the way:

"There will be no Player Killing in the game, just PvP."

Umm although i know what they mean surely it coulda been worded different... After all you DO "kill" players in PvP (hence player VERSUS player) and DC universe online and world of warcraft both have PVP servers... theyre called PVP servers not PK servers.. and well what does laying on those PVP servers allow you to do? Yup... kill/attack other players at will.... so yeah whoever wrote that shoulda worked on their wording

Edited, Apr 28th 2013 11:15pm by DuoMaxwellxx
#34 Apr 28 2013 at 10:16 PM Rating: Good
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Please refer to my post above. I gave the location of the updated version.
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#35 Apr 28 2013 at 10:26 PM Rating: Default
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electromagnet83 wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Seems the game is getting delayed because of PS3.... Oh like nobody ever saw that one comming....


Let's not jump to conclusions here and instead hope SCEA gets their ***** in gear..


Phase 3 has been pushed to what phase 4 was supposed to be..... How is that not a delay ?
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#36 Apr 28 2013 at 10:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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who talked in teh middle of battle son FFXI? fropmom what i recall all teh talking was done BEFORE a fight (to explain strategy and whatnot if there was one) and if it was just an exp party then talking was done between pulls... I dont remember two many istances where ppl stopped fighting or let teh game auto attack during fighst to type up messages

Quote:
Im almost positive though that Yoshi said ARR doesnt support voice chat.. So in order to communicate durring battle I have to use another system? what if im playing PS3? Also, I like fast paced fighting. But ive seen alot of people who dnt for this reason. I remember playing FFXI and being able to type while fighting. Either way I dont mind, but i see many people complaining about t unfortunately


Keep in mind that in FFXI, especially in old school exp parties, you had TONS of time where you weren't pushing any buttons (unless you were a red mage or bard). Melee classes had to build TP, mages had to pause between spells. This added up to lots of time where you could type to communicate without really adversely affecting anything about what you were doing. Additionally, all macros were handled with modifier keys, so you could actually leave a sentence half typed while doing your other stuff and then just come back to it. None of these things are possible in XIV from what we've seen.

XIV's combat appears a lot closer to modern games, where rapid action buttons are the norm. You literally don't have time to type things. And trying to do so will lower your performance.

Without built-in voice chat, PS3 players are kind of in a bind, and I've talked about that in other threads. I just don't see a way around it though. Here's an assumption people keep making, I think erroneously. You don't need it in dungeons, you don't need it in xp parties, you don't need it for 90% of the things you'll be doing. Most MMO content does not require rapid communication between participants. The only content that DOES require it is anything that requires a lot of coordination. I'd expect raids to require voice communication if the encounter mechanics are at all complex. And keep in mind when I say raids, I'm talking about large-group endgame content.

I know there are people that don't like the idea of voice communication in games. I get that. It will ultimately boil down to how complex the encounters turn out to be.

You can't put the genie back in the bottle here. Combat is going to be faster than FFXI's was, because it has to be. Encounters are more complex, because they have to be. Coordination between players has to be tighter, because it has to be. That's how you make an MMO now.

Also, to the person that just rates me down whenever I talk about something like this: instead of doing that, join the discussion. I, personally, don't rate people down unless they're being an ***. Disagreeing with me intelligently will get you rated UP, actually. Smiley: nod
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#37 Apr 28 2013 at 11:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
who talked in teh middle of battle son FFXI? fropmom what i recall all teh talking was done BEFORE a fight (to explain strategy and whatnot if there was one) and if it was just an exp party then talking was done between pulls... I dont remember two many istances where ppl stopped fighting or let teh game auto attack during fighst to type up messages

Quote:
Im almost positive though that Yoshi said ARR doesnt support voice chat.. So in order to communicate durring battle I have to use another system? what if im playing PS3? Also, I like fast paced fighting. But ive seen alot of people who dnt for this reason. I remember playing FFXI and being able to type while fighting. Either way I dont mind, but i see many people complaining about t unfortunately


Keep in mind that in FFXI, especially in old school exp parties, you had TONS of time where you weren't pushing any buttons (unless you were a red mage or bard). Melee classes had to build TP, mages had to pause between spells. This added up to lots of time where you could type to communicate without really adversely affecting anything about what you were doing. Additionally, all macros were handled with modifier keys, so you could actually leave a sentence half typed while doing your other stuff and then just come back to it. None of these things are possible in XIV from what we've seen.

XIV's combat appears a lot closer to modern games, where rapid action buttons are the norm. You literally don't have time to type things. And trying to do so will lower your performance.

Without built-in voice chat, PS3 players are kind of in a bind, and I've talked about that in other threads. I just don't see a way around it though. Here's an assumption people keep making, I think erroneously. You don't need it in dungeons, you don't need it in xp parties, you don't need it for 90% of the things you'll be doing. Most MMO content does not require rapid communication between participants. The only content that DOES require it is anything that requires a lot of coordination. I'd expect raids to require voice communication if the encounter mechanics are at all complex. And keep in mind when I say raids, I'm talking about large-group endgame content.

I know there are people that don't like the idea of voice communication in games. I get that. It will ultimately boil down to how complex the encounters turn out to be.

You can't put the genie back in the bottle here. Combat is going to be faster than FFXI's was, because it has to be. Encounters are more complex, because they have to be. Coordination between players has to be tighter, because it has to be. That's how you make an MMO now.

Also, to the person that just rates me down whenever I talk about something like this: instead of doing that, join the discussion. I, personally, don't rate people down unless they're being an ***. Disagreeing with me intelligently will get you rated UP, actually. Smiley: nod


Most players are already used to voice chat, is only the old geezers from XI that seem to not like it because "Immersion" and stuff alike....I am pretty sure every guild in WOW has a ventrilo etc etc. Voice chat is the norm not the exception in MMOS.
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#38 Apr 29 2013 at 12:02 AM Rating: Good
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In defense of the people arguing for effective text-based conversation, at the very least you'll want to be able to converse with people effectively in text to find out if they're people you want to give your Teamspeak/Mumble/whatever information to so that they can be in your voice chat. After all, most LS mates begin as random strangers until you talk to them.

Unless you're advocating for in-game global voice chat, in which case I propose you try to imagine all the shouts of Uldah being yelled all at the same time instead of being lines of text going by in a chatlog.
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#39 Apr 29 2013 at 12:18 AM Rating: Good
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As someone who has only played FFXI before XIV 1.0, XIV's primal fights and dungeons were one **** of a rude awakening.

I don't even know how you'd be able to do those well without having voice chat the first couple of times. Especially learning the ins and outs of Aurum Vale and Ifrit.
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#40 Apr 29 2013 at 12:18 AM Rating: Good
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Unless you're advocating for in-game global voice chat, in which case I propose you try to imagine all the shouts of Uldah being yelled all at the same time instead of being lines of text going by in a chatlog.


Public zone voice chat is just about the worst thing I can imagine in an MMO.

Text communication works great for nearly everything you'll do. Endgame stuff, not so much, but at that point you're with people you know; or at least people you could get to know.

You're completely right. Most LSes began as a random group of strangers.
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#41 Apr 29 2013 at 6:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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You could use my guide and set up your own Raspberry Pi Mumble server Smiley: grin

I know that isn't ideal for PS3 players, but Mumble features iOS and Android apps (I'm sure Ventrilo does as well). It's not as great as a built in system but it's not completely insurmountable either. **** even Razer is getting into the VOIP thing.
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#42 Apr 29 2013 at 10:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yunchang wrote:
In defense of the people arguing for effective text-based conversation, at the very least you'll want to be able to converse with people effectively in text to find out if they're people you want to give your Teamspeak/Mumble/whatever information to so that they can be in your voice chat.


Yes, but that's not something that would be affected by lowering the GCD. Presumably you wouldn't be rattling that information off in the middle of a battle - you'd do it beforehand or afterward.

No one is saying that text-based chat should be canned. It's just that for complex encounters where people need to talk to each other, voice is the way to go. There's no way to do fast tank swaps without it. Healers can't hand off responsibilities to each other without it. Text is too slow for complex encounters with powerful monsters, and SE realizes that.

The other thing I am looking forward to is the mobile app, but I hope it's not limited to just the things mentioned. My favorite aspect of WoW's app is the Mobile Auction House. I can manage my inventory and sell off mats\equipment\etc from literally anywhere with a data signal. It also lets you make purchases and look up upgrades for your character. Really cool stuff.
#43 Apr 29 2013 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Fast fighting for a long period of time does take away from communication.


Voice communication fixes that. I'd personally rather have faster combat with more difficult encounter mechanics, even if it means I have to give up communicating via the chat window.

And even so.. with a 2-3 second GCD or whatever Wint said it was in the other thread, you don't have a lot of time to type anything without ******** up your rotation. A couple highly abbreviated words at best.


Voice communication is fine for raid leaders-- for people who just want to chat with strangers online, it's not always desirable.

I talked to people frequently in FFXI during battles, and I've played games where talking during battle was neither necessary nor even possible while actively performing your job in the battle. It sucks because no one every needs to talk, so there's no sense of community. People join and leave a party without saying a word. You might as well not even play with other people. What's the point of enduring the subpar gameplay of an MMO if not to enjoy the game with other people?
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#44 Apr 29 2013 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
I talked to people frequently in FFXI during battles, and I've played games where talking during battle was neither necessary nor even possible while actively performing your job in the battle. It sucks because no one every needs to talk, so there's no sense of community. People join and leave a party without saying a word. You might as well not even play with other people. What's the point of enduring the subpar gameplay of an MMO if not to enjoy the game with other people?


You're drawing a LOT of conclusions from just not typing to people while actively in combat. You sure you don't want to throw cancer in there somewhere?

Talking to people through text while fighting is not a requirement for a sense of community. Talking to random strangers at all is actually not necessarily required. Sometimes you just want to get in, do a dungeon or whatever, and get out. Sometimes I don't feel like talking to my party members. Does that mean they may as well not be there? No, because if they weren't there, we couldn't do the content.

Edited, Apr 29th 2013 4:04pm by Callinon
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#45 Apr 29 2013 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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I personally shy away from voice chats until I'm comfortable with a group. I'll listen when required but I find just jumping in with a group of players I hardly know can cause some unnecessary distractions to myself. Besides, nothing beats that first spoken chat when I feel established enough and hearing, "Dude! You ARE a girl!"

That said, it's becoming increasingly more required to voice for better or worse. I've heard even some RP groups require it for end game content.
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#46 Apr 29 2013 at 3:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Kachi wrote:
I talked to people frequently in FFXI during battles, and I've played games where talking during battle was neither necessary nor even possible while actively performing your job in the battle. It sucks because no one every needs to talk, so there's no sense of community. People join and leave a party without saying a word. You might as well not even play with other people. What's the point of enduring the subpar gameplay of an MMO if not to enjoy the game with other people?


You're drawing a LOT of conclusions from just not typing to people while actively in combat. You sure you don't want to throw cancer in there somewhere?

Talking to people through text while fighting is not a requirement for a sense of community. Talking to random strangers at all is actually not necessarily required. Sometimes you just want to get in, do a dungeon or whatever, and get out. Sometimes I don't feel like talking to my party members. Does that mean they may as well not be there? No, because if they weren't there, we couldn't do the content.

Edited, Apr 29th 2013 4:04pm by Callinon


I'm mainly drawing a lot of conclusions about my preferences, so in that context, they're all correct conclusions. I mean, we can discuss the alternative design possibilities, but that sounds pretty tedious to me. The bottom line is that if you can't really talk during combat, which is what you do for most of the time that you're actually playing with other people, then it's hard to achieve a sense of community. Especially if people rely on auto-grouping options to party up.

It's completely possible to allow players to converse without requiring them to, and without hindering their activity during gameplay. I hope I don't need to convince anyone at this point that I've got no problems with flexible features which allow players to choose.

If you just want to play with other people, especially other people you already know, without regard for the feeling of a persistent community, there are dozens of games with co-op modes that are much more rewarding than an MMO.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#47 Apr 29 2013 at 4:57 PM Rating: Good
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A functional, comfortable, and swift means to type for gamepad players is needed. Regardless if there is a voice chat option or not. You can still play with other people without communicating in exhaustive or elaborate sentences. Forcing any type of communication is not always optimal. This is why you see the /blacklist option in XI, the mute button on xbox live or players choosing not to join guilds who require ventrillo, etc.

People are different from each other. Some are nice, some are courteous, some are perverts, some like to cuss, some are violent, some are funny, some are rude, some have very loud voices, and some just have annoying voices. Any person can cycle through those moods at anytime and cause more distraction than vital communication. I play with people sometimes typing, sometimes voice chat, and sometimes I don't communicate at all. Options good, required bad..

How could XIV give players more options?
No faster GCD required unless there is heavy environmental/positional awareness focus while activating skills or a skill modifier button.
-An intuitive marking system for use with player communication or enemy marking.
-A gamepad/kb hybrid with a full size qwerty keyboard
-A return of a queue feature for skills(allows typing while basic commonly used skills fire off)
-An enhance chat/macro feature for communicating

What are some your ideas?

Mainly, I think if mmos are going to continue releasing on consoles. Someone needs to develop an intuitive mmo/gamepad/keyboard hybrid. That is the main thing I see not eating up bandwidth and placing gamepad and keyboard users on more level ground imo.
#48 Apr 29 2013 at 5:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Honestly, I think the suggestions you shared would do wonders for the game. I've been advocating for queued attacks and a controller/keyboard hybrid in particular since before the release of 1.0. There's always more that you can do, but when simpler and smarter solutions are passed over, that's what disappoints me.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#49 Apr 29 2013 at 5:23 PM Rating: Default
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sandpark wrote:
A functional, comfortable, and swift means to type for gamepad players is needed. Regardless if there is a voice chat option or not. You can still play with other people without communicating in exhaustive or elaborate sentences. Forcing any type of communication is not always optimal. This is why you see the /blacklist option in XI, the mute button on xbox live or players choosing not to join guilds who require ventrillo, etc.




Xbox gampepad keypad add on is recognized as a keyboard in windows. Therefore it should allow you to type directly from the gamepad. Problem = Solved
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#50 Apr 29 2013 at 5:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I know you have Kachi. Sadly, the best thing I've seen close to that hybrid is your old logitech. There has got to be some company that can pull this off and implement modern features? Please?
#51 Apr 29 2013 at 5:27 PM Rating: Decent
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electromagnet83 wrote:
sandpark wrote:
A functional, comfortable, and swift means to type for gamepad players is needed. Regardless if there is a voice chat option or not. You can still play with other people without communicating in exhaustive or elaborate sentences. Forcing any type of communication is not always optimal. This is why you see the /blacklist option in XI, the mute button on xbox live or players choosing not to join guilds who require ventrillo, etc.




Xbox gampepad keypad add on is recognized as a keyboard in windows. Therefore it should allow you to type directly from the gamepad. Problem = Solved

Um you talking about that tiny little add on? Sure if every player has papa smurf hands.
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