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#52 Apr 29 2013 at 5:33 PM Rating: Default
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sandpark wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
sandpark wrote:
A functional, comfortable, and swift means to type for gamepad players is needed. Regardless if there is a voice chat option or not. You can still play with other people without communicating in exhaustive or elaborate sentences. Forcing any type of communication is not always optimal. This is why you see the /blacklist option in XI, the mute button on xbox live or players choosing not to join guilds who require ventrillo, etc.




Xbox gampepad keypad add on is recognized as a keyboard in windows. Therefore it should allow you to type directly from the gamepad. Problem = Solved

Um you talking about that tiny little add on? Sure if every player has papa smurf hands.


It looks bigger and easier than texting on a cellphone?
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#53 Apr 29 2013 at 5:46 PM Rating: Decent
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sandpark wrote:
I know you have Kachi. Sadly, the best thing I've seen close to that hybrid is your old logitech. There has got to be some company that can pull this off and implement modern features? Please?


I'd like to see a back-mounted keypad. I've got all these fingers just dangling back behind the keypad not doing anything. A keyboard mount for a gamepad would also be acceptable.

I'm sure there are no shortage of solutions more ergonomic and efficacious than what we're currently working with. Would be a good project for some entrepreneur.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#54 Apr 29 2013 at 5:50 PM Rating: Good
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You ever see the weird chorded keyboards?

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#55 Apr 29 2013 at 5:57 PM Rating: Default
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Off topic sorta but.....I like how most MMOs players are like "I would NEVER use a controller" and are coincidentally creating a market of more intricate and complex "keyboards" for playing an MMO with more speed and dexterity, slowly but surely replacing the keyboard and mouse set up with a.....controller (of sorts) ?

Example:

[link=http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826618022&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-_-pla-_-Mice-_-N82E16826618022&gclid=COr_y8-J8bYCFUFo4Aod_nAA2Q[/link]

I'll just stick with the Xbox Gamepad for games like FFXIV 2.0 :)
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#56 Apr 29 2013 at 6:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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sandpark wrote:
A functional, comfortable, and swift means to type for gamepad players is needed. Regardless if there is a voice chat option or not. You can still play with other people without communicating in exhaustive or elaborate sentences. Forcing any type of communication is not always optimal. This is why you see the /blacklist option in XI, the mute button on xbox live or players choosing not to join guilds who require ventrillo, etc.

People are different from each other. Some are nice, some are courteous, some are perverts, some like to cuss, some are violent, some are funny, some are rude, some have very loud voices, and some just have annoying voices. Any person can cycle through those moods at anytime and cause more distraction than vital communication. I play with people sometimes typing, sometimes voice chat, and sometimes I don't communicate at all. Options good, required bad..

How could XIV give players more options?
No faster GCD required unless there is heavy environmental/positional awareness focus while activating skills or a skill modifier button.
-An intuitive marking system for use with player communication or enemy marking.
-A gamepad/kb hybrid with a full size qwerty keyboard
-A return of a queue feature for skills(allows typing while basic commonly used skills fire off)
-An enhance chat/macro feature for communicating

What are some your ideas?

Mainly, I think if mmos are going to continue releasing on consoles. Someone needs to develop an intuitive mmo/gamepad/keyboard hybrid. That is the main thing I see not eating up bandwidth and placing gamepad and keyboard users on more level ground imo.


The marking system is already in place, and is quite handy. During Tam Tara Deepcroft, there is a particularly large group of mobs you need to get through and killing them in order (having everyone on the same target) is very desirable. Before charging in the party leader can mark them and everyone in the party can see the marks. I know there are plans to expand this as well.
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#57 Apr 29 2013 at 7:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
You ever see the weird chorded keyboards?



I haven't--that looks sort of similar to typing with a controller via input combinations (which I wish more PC games would utilize as it's a very familiar system to console gamers and much better in general). The flexibility of the peripheral is... interesting.

Another option would be wrist-mounted keyboards, like something you'd see in a scifi movie. Less optimal to combine with a gamepad, but a great hands-free keyboard option in general. You'd have, say, the left-hand keys mounted under your left hand, as supported by the wrist, and then the right-handed keys would be on top of your left wrist. You'd have full keyboard control just placing your right hand over your left arm. It would require some clever engineering to prevent the lefthand keypad from interfering with gamepad gripping, though. Especially so if mounting the gamepad to the keyboard.

Lots of great options that man has yet to explore, which is just sad given our abilities for manufacturing technology.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#58 Apr 29 2013 at 7:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Lots of great options that man has yet to explore, which is just sad given our abilities for manufacturing technology.


Only problem is, who's going to buy it?
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#59 Apr 29 2013 at 7:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Nerds. Don't underestimate them.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#60 Apr 29 2013 at 7:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Nerds. Don't underestimate them.


I'm only underestimating their purchasing power.
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#61 Apr 29 2013 at 7:26 PM Rating: Decent
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That would be a mistake, too. Computer nerds in particular often have vast disposable income for peripherals and a fondness for anything purported to be next-gen. Look at how much they spend on otherwise "normal" peripherals.

These ideas don't even require any new tech. It's just a more ergonomic package of the same old.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#62 Apr 29 2013 at 7:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
That would be a mistake, too. Computer nerds in particular often have vast disposable income for peripherals and a fondness for anything purported to be next-gen. Look at how much they spend on otherwise "normal" peripherals.

These ideas don't even require any new tech. It's just a more ergonomic package of the same old.


I disagree, I don't think there is nearly enough demand for this.
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#63 Apr 29 2013 at 8:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Wint wrote:


The marking system is already in place, and is quite handy. During Tam Tara Deepcroft, there is a particularly large group of mobs you need to get through and killing them in order (having everyone on the same target) is very desirable. Before charging in the party leader can mark them and everyone in the party can see the marks. I know there are plans to expand this as well.

I am very interested to see how they expand upon this. Seems great, have you offered any feedback to the development team on ways you would like to see this expanded?

I stick by my guns from previous post. I feel that an mmo/gamepad/keyboard hybrid modeled around the premise of the Wii-u controller would be best. The touchscreen is something alot of people are familiar with these days. It wouldn't require some revolutionary new design or feel foreign to the masses like a chorded keyboard or some finger twisting aparatus.

Just have some mode switching selector UI at the the top of the touchscreen to switch between a qwerty interface, mouse pad functions for drag and drop, etc, etc. From what I have heard the Wii-U is moderately light and comfortable to hold. If they want to stay away from adding a touchscreen. Then at the least slap on a normal keyboard type qwerty and a small touchpad like laptops have.
#64 Apr 29 2013 at 8:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Wint wrote:
Kachi wrote:
That would be a mistake, too. Computer nerds in particular often have vast disposable income for peripherals and a fondness for anything purported to be next-gen. Look at how much they spend on otherwise "normal" peripherals.

These ideas don't even require any new tech. It's just a more ergonomic package of the same old.


I disagree, I don't think there is nearly enough demand for this.


I think you overestimate the necessary threshold for demand. Worst case scenario, do a Kickstarter/Indiegogo and gauge the demand up front with minimal startup cost.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#65 Apr 29 2013 at 8:24 PM Rating: Decent
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If nothing else, there are plenty of nerds who could create a working prototype in their garage in an afternoon just by modifying a standard keyboard.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#66 Apr 30 2013 at 1:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Voice coms are starting to be more and more needed from what i've seen. I remember back in the day in wow that we would only log in ventrillo for the raid and then log out the minute we won the raid. Almost no chit chat there a simple hi and get this thing on the road. I must admit that i didn't really like the voice coms much and its true that i preferred to use text chat when playing out of raids.

That all changed when i started playing EvE online. Its almost unthinkable for a corporation (guild/clan/ls) to not have a voice com. My corporation has one then my alliance has another one and at the end my coalition has a different one ( coalitions are basically an alliance of alliances numbering to thousands of players). Coms are basically mandatory there for various reasons. Eve made me re think the whole voice chat thing to be honest. If you are form the players that get on an ls and stick with those people for a long time, voice chat will band you together and will make playing, way more enjoying than usual. After 1 and half year with the same corp in EvE we have facebook page, phone numbers exchanged and some of us that are close go and get drunk together. My point is, if you find a good bunch of people voice coms will really make you have an even greater time.
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#67 Apr 30 2013 at 1:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Teravibe wrote:
That all changed when i started playing EvE online. Its almost unthinkable for a corporation (guild/clan/ls) to not have a voice com. My corporation has one then my alliance has another one and at the end my coalition has a different one ( coalitions are basically an alliance of alliances numbering to thousands of players). Coms are basically mandatory there for various reasons. Eve made me re think the whole voice chat thing to be honest. If you are form the players that get on an ls and stick with those people for a long time, voice chat will band you together and will make playing, way more enjoying than usual. After 1 and half year with the same corp in EvE we have facebook page, phone numbers exchanged and some of us that are close go and get drunk together. My point is, if you find a good bunch of people voice coms will really make you have an even greater time.
Agreed.

I've found voice chat to be no different than text. You still have people making jokes about each other, you still get people going off to have their private convos (private channel instead of using /tells), and overall having as good a time as those guilds reliant on text chatboxes--provided the people in-guild get along.

Which is why I tend to get a bit irked by people who go out of their way to demonize it.

Edited, Apr 30th 2013 3:34am by Ruisu
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#68 Apr 30 2013 at 1:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Whether you like it or not, FFXIV won't have it natively, and it won't be accessible to many console players. Most players won't use it. So they need to be making design decisions with consideration for that fact. Period.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#69 Apr 30 2013 at 2:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Whether you like it or not, FFXIV won't have it natively, and it won't be accessible to many console players. Most players won't use it. So they need to be making design decisions with consideration for that fact. Period.


I'm not sure MMOs are designed around the idea that people will have third party voice comms, so much as they account for the fact that people CAN have those and there isn't anything that can be done about that.

WoW didn't have native voice chat for a long time (it does now, but it sucks hard). People still used it for raiding because it facilitated communication much MUCH better than text could ever hope to. Most MMOs never bother with it since services like Ventrillo and Mumble handle it much better than an MMO server ever could.

I think there needs to be a simple solution for console players to at least be able to hear, if not necessarily speak, over a voice comm server. But this is another one of those situations where you can't put the genie back in the bottle. VoIP is here, it isn't going anywhere, and people WILL use it. Sticking your head in the sand won't make that not true.
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#70 Apr 30 2013 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Whether you like it or not, FFXIV won't have it natively, and it won't be accessible to many console players. Most players won't use it. So they need to be making design decisions with consideration for that fact. Period.


I'm not sure MMOs are designed around the idea that people will have third party voice comms, so much as they account for the fact that people CAN have those and there isn't anything that can be done about that.

WoW didn't have native voice chat for a long time (it does now, but it sucks hard). People still used it for raiding because it facilitated communication much MUCH better than text could ever hope to. Most MMOs never bother with it since services like Ventrillo and Mumble handle it much better than an MMO server ever could.

I think there needs to be a simple solution for console players to at least be able to hear, if not necessarily speak, over a voice comm server. But this is another one of those situations where you can't put the genie back in the bottle. VoIP is here, it isn't going anywhere, and people WILL use it. Sticking your head in the sand won't make that not true.


Being as I'll be playing exclusively on PS3 this was a concern for me as well. Wint told me about Vent and Mumble (i think) having smartphone apps that can be downloaded free or very cheap. Though I imagine there are going to be FFXIV gamers out there that are console only and also don't have a smart phone, I would also wager that section is pretty small. Whether it be a large buy-in like a really nice set of bluetooth headphones or just a earbud/mic, there are enough options out there.

I also figure the only time I'm really going to need voice is once I get to raiding, and that will be a ways off. Maybe someone will have another solution by then. I for one would LOVE an updated version of that Logitech PS2 controller/keyboard I had. I believe Wint and Kachi have mentioned owning one as well.
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#71 Apr 30 2013 at 3:06 PM Rating: Excellent
When I played FFXI on a ps2 (which was most of the time I played), I just used a USB keyboard and never had any issues.
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#72 Apr 30 2013 at 3:28 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
When I played FFXI on a ps2 (which was most of the time I played), I just used a USB keyboard and never had any issues.

It's not that people couldn't use separate hardware to accomplish everything. Some players such as myself just wish we didn't have to. I mean consoles have many different types of controllers as does pc. Standard controller, kinect, move, guns, guitars, drums, etc.
Where is an mmo gamepad/keyboard hybrid built primarily towards the gamepad for the mmo genre?

If mmos are ever going to be mainstream on consoles. The options for voice chat and a true hybrid are neccesary. The larger and persistent a game is, the more communication will likely be needed.
#73 Apr 30 2013 at 4:08 PM Rating: Default
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Whether you like it or not, FFXIV won't have it natively, and it won't be accessible to many console players. Most players won't use it. So they need to be making design decisions with consideration for that fact. Period.


I'm not sure MMOs are designed around the idea that people will have third party voice comms, so much as they account for the fact that people CAN have those and there isn't anything that can be done about that.

WoW didn't have native voice chat for a long time (it does now, but it sucks hard). People still used it for raiding because it facilitated communication much MUCH better than text could ever hope to. Most MMOs never bother with it since services like Ventrillo and Mumble handle it much better than an MMO server ever could.

I think there needs to be a simple solution for console players to at least be able to hear, if not necessarily speak, over a voice comm server. But this is another one of those situations where you can't put the genie back in the bottle. VoIP is here, it isn't going anywhere, and people WILL use it. Sticking your head in the sand won't make that not true.


The thing is, you don't need to accommodate the people who will accommodate themselves. You need to accommodate all the people that won't. Requiring, even encouraging an out-of-game solution to an in-game design decision is asinine and frankly, unacceptable.

Personally I've used vent and don't like it. I will probably never use it because it makes the game less fun for me. But if my alternative is just to never talk during combat, I probably won't play at all. And whether they believe so or not, many players will do the same without even thinking it through. People quit games when they're not having fun, often without breaking down the reasons. 70% of new WoW players don't even make it past level 10. One of the major complaints in GW2 was the same thing we're talking about: not being able to chat effectively in the midst of combat. It doesn't bode well, and they should address it.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#74 Apr 30 2013 at 4:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Call me lame, but I do like immersion (don't kill me wint), and nothing kills it more than hearing some 15 year old kid screaming at his mom...or just hearing people's real voice in general. I'm not a fan.

Now, if it was built into the game, had voiceover effects, and you could select "whisper, say, shout, party" where whisper is telling one person, say is speaking where people can hear you if within say 5-10 feet and shouting say around 20 feet. That'd be pretty awesome. Yes Gridania would be annoying, but so many people would be shouting that it would just sound like a crowded subway or something. could be kinda cool.

Edited, Apr 30th 2013 6:41pm by electromagnet83
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#75 Apr 30 2013 at 5:01 PM Rating: Default
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I don't think it's lame; I'm the same way. But I guess I come from a time where MMOs still aspired to be virtual worlds, not just multiplayer games.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#76 Apr 30 2013 at 5:05 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Call me lame, but I do like immersion (don't kill me wint), and nothing kills it more than hearing some 15 year old kid screaming at his mom...or just hearing people's real voice in general. I'm not a fan.


This.

When voice chat truly becomes "required" is when I may throw in the towel. Fortunately, there are many other like-minded gamers (probably mostly in my age group) who feel the same way.
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#77 Apr 30 2013 at 5:42 PM Rating: Default
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To add to this, voice chat would be okay if you were playing with real people that you actually knew like when I game with my brother. But in the grand scheme of things this probably constitutes such a minority of players there would be no reason dedicate the resources and cost to implement an in-game voice client for only a relatively few people.

Edited, Apr 30th 2013 7:43pm by electromagnet83
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#78 Apr 30 2013 at 5:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Again, voice chat is MMOs is used pretty much exclusively for endgame content (be it PvE or PvP). You would never hear random voice chat in towns, that'd be horrific.

Also..

Quote:
nothing kills it more than hearing some 15 year old kid screaming at his mom...


It is acceptable in situations like that to mercilessly taunt the kid for not knowing what push-to-talk is.
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#79 Apr 30 2013 at 6:03 PM Rating: Default
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Again, voice chat is MMOs is used pretty much exclusively for endgame content (be it PvE or PvP). You would never hear random voice chat in towns, that'd be horrific.

Also..

Quote:
nothing kills it more than hearing some 15 year old kid screaming at his mom...


It is acceptable in situations like that to mercilessly taunt the kid for not knowing what push-to-talk is.



Lol
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#80 Apr 30 2013 at 8:12 PM Rating: Good
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I'll be playing on console as well; I've been wondering which keyboard I should purchase, whether it's a USB one or the PS3 brand that attaches to the controller. I'll probably invest in the latter. Having to put my controller down to type will probably be a pain in general. I don't plan on raiding or battling much in general, mostly sticking to crafting, so I'm not bothered about voice chat. My friend and I who plan on playing together will be sticking to Skype.
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#81 May 01 2013 at 6:30 AM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Talking to people through text while fighting is not a requirement for a sense of community. Talking to random strangers at all is actually not necessarily required. Sometimes you just want to get in, do a dungeon or whatever, and get out. Sometimes I don't feel like talking to my party members. Does that mean they may as well not be there? No, because if they weren't there, we couldn't do the content.


Isn't this the same as just playing on offline game with AI controlled extra party members? I've played those games. They aren't mmo's. The unfortunate truth is that far too many gamers have that philosophy, and it absolutely DOES effect the community negatively. FFXI had one of the best gaming communities I've ever been a part of, because it was expected. Since there was downtime in battles, you were able to talk to people, and many players did. In turn, it encouraged players to say hello when entering a party, and for others to welcome them. It was nice.

Other games, like WoW, you can't really talk at all during combat. I don't know if that is a reason why most random dungeon runs were dead silent, but a lot of them certainly were. I leveled a paladin 10-80 doing mostly random dungeons and probably 80% of the runs would be absolute silence. I'll admit, some of that was my fault as once I got used to a dungeon I would just speed run it as fast as possible, but I definitely think the pace of combat contributed to that lack of community.

That said, I do agree that voice chat has become very important at this point in mmo gaming. I don't love voice chat, mainly because my fiance thinks its really weird, but I understand it's importance in gaming in terms of coordination and timing, something that is hard to achieve in the same way with text based commands. What I will say though, is that FFXI had some pretty difficult battles that required lots of coordination and timing, tank swapping, kiting... all the same stuff from other mmo's, yet could still effectively be beaten without voice chat. So it is possible, I just don't know how it stays interesting in today's fast-paced gaming environment.

Edited, May 1st 2013 9:16am by BartelX
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#82 May 01 2013 at 7:15 AM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Talking to people through text while fighting is not a requirement for a sense of community. Talking to random strangers at all is actually not necessarily required. Sometimes you just want to get in, do a dungeon or whatever, and get out. Sometimes I don't feel like talking to my party members. Does that mean they may as well not be there? No, because if they weren't there, we couldn't do the content.


Isn't this the same as just playing on offline game with AI controlled extra party members? I've played those games. They aren't mmo's. The unfortunate truth is that far too many gamers have that philosophy, and it absolutely DOES effect the community negatively. FFXI had one of the best gaming communities I've ever been a part of, because it was expected. Since there was downtime in battles, you were able to talk to people, and many players did. In turn, it encouraged players to say hello when entering a party, and for others to welcome them. It was nice.

Other games, like WoW, you can't really talk at all during combat. I don't know if that is a reason why most random dungeon runs were dead silent, but a lot of them certainly were. I leveled a paladin 10-80 doing mostly random dungeons and probably 80% of the runs would be absolute silence. I'll admit, some of that was my fault as once I got used to a dungeon I would just speed run it as fast as possible, but I definitely think the pace of combat contributed to that lack of community.

That said, I do agree that voice chat has become a necessity at this point in mmo gaming. I don't love voice chat, mainly because my fiance thinks its really weird, but I understand it's importance in gaming in terms of coordination and timing, something that just can't be achieved in the same way as text based commands. What I will say though, is that FFXI had some pretty difficult battles that required lots of coordination and timing, tank swapping, kiting... all the same stuff from other mmo's, yet could still effectively be beaten without voice chat. So it is possible, I just don't know how it stays interesting in today's fast-paced gaming environment.

Edited, May 1st 2013 8:35am by BartelX


I think it is important to remember that a lot of gamers are "antisocial" in general. Or they play to relax, to escape the pressures in society to communicate in order to get things done. There is a certain magic about knowing your party members are on the same track as you without needing to say a word in, for instance, EXP parties. Certainly there is the option of saying hello, but I don't think it is unusual for people to prefer staying quiet. Even just peace and not having douchebags screaming at one another all the time adds to the community, not just the concept of people socializing with one another.
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#83 May 01 2013 at 7:27 AM Rating: Good
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Atkascha wrote:
I think it is important to remember that a lot of gamers are "antisocial" in general. Or they play to relax, to escape the pressures in society to communicate in order to get things done. There is a certain magic about knowing your party members are on the same track as you without needing to say a word in, for instance, EXP parties. Certainly there is the option of saying hello, but I don't think it is unusual for people to prefer staying quiet. Even just peace and not having douchebags screaming at one another all the time adds to the community, not just the concept of people socializing with one another.


I guess I just don't really agree that silence adds to the community. That would be like me and my neighbor raking leaves, but me giving no greeting, not saying a word the whole time, and then just leaving. I certainly wouldn't feel a stronger sense of community from that experience, and I highly doubt my neighbor would either. I know that after any of those random dungeon runs in WoW, I never really felt like I gained more of a sense of community. If anything, it kind of detached me from the community and made it that much easier to join in on the silence.
#84 May 01 2013 at 7:35 AM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:


I guess I just don't really agree that silence adds to the community. That would be like me and my neighbor raking leaves, but me giving no greeting, not saying a word the whole time, and then just leaving. I certainly wouldn't feel a stronger sense of community from that experience, and I highly doubt my neighbor would either. I know that after any of those random dungeon runs in WoW, I never really felt like I gained more of a sense of community. If anything, it kind of detached me from the community and made it that much easier to join in on the silence.


Definitely, I see your points. It comes down to personal preference in the end. Silence doesn't necessarily add to the community, but it isn't detrimental in the same way blatant ******* behavior is. Personally, in LS's I've been in, it was weird for me to join a chatty community with cliques and whatnot. None of them ever spoke to me even when I did say hello. So I just stopped talking, only attended events, and eventually left because the constant exclusivity annoyed me. I think it's wonderful that you are a social person, and I'm sure I would feel welcome if you tried to include me. It's just difficult to find a balance in certain social circles, so the automatic response for people like me is to say nothing.
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#85 May 01 2013 at 8:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Isn't this the same as just playing on offline game with AI controlled extra party members? I've played those games. They aren't mmo's. The unfortunate truth is that far too many gamers have that philosophy, and it absolutely DOES effect the community negatively. FFXI had one of the best gaming communities I've ever been a part of, because it was expected. Since there was downtime in battles, you were able to talk to people, and many players did. In turn, it encouraged players to say hello when entering a party, and for others to welcome them. It was nice.


See, I just don't think so. FFXI had a great community for sure. But I don't think it was because of people chatting during combat. I think FFXI had a great community because it had no choice. You couldn't cross the street for a hot dog without a balanced party of 6 people.

In the 4 years I played FFXI, I'm sure I had as many parties where nobody said anything after we worked out our skillchain except to report TP as I had parties that chatted constantly. Honestly, the constant chatting was kind of annoying to me after a while, because it tended to make people miss cues, and it made it harder to see things like TP reports.
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#86 May 01 2013 at 8:46 AM Rating: Good
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Atkascha wrote:
Personally, in LS's I've been in, it was weird for me to join a chatty community with cliques and whatnot. None of them ever spoke to me even when I did say hello. So I just stopped talking, only attended events, and eventually left because the constant exclusivity annoyed me.


Hmm, that sounds like some bad luck in LS's. Although I do know what you mean, as I've been in shells like that, I've also been in some phenomenal shells where everyone talked to each other and the atmosphere was excellent. People were encouraged to be vocal and the leaders would actually go out of their way to include people, or ask people questions about themselves. Those were great experiences, and something I hope to see in ARR. If you play, I'd just encourage you to keep looking around until you find a shell that makes you feel welcome, because I can assure you they do exist.
#87 May 01 2013 at 8:59 AM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Isn't this the same as just playing on offline game with AI controlled extra party members? I've played those games. They aren't mmo's. The unfortunate truth is that far too many gamers have that philosophy, and it absolutely DOES effect the community negatively. FFXI had one of the best gaming communities I've ever been a part of, because it was expected. Since there was downtime in battles, you were able to talk to people, and many players did. In turn, it encouraged players to say hello when entering a party, and for others to welcome them. It was nice.


See, I just don't think so. FFXI had a great community for sure. But I don't think it was because of people chatting during combat. I think FFXI had a great community because it had no choice. You couldn't cross the street for a hot dog without a balanced party of 6 people.

In the 4 years I played FFXI, I'm sure I had as many parties where nobody said anything after we worked out our skillchain except to report TP as I had parties that chatted constantly. Honestly, the constant chatting was kind of annoying to me after a while, because it tended to make people miss cues, and it made it harder to see things like TP reports.


I should have clarified this... I don't think being able to talk during battles is the only thing that made a great community, but I do think it attributed to the atmosphere quite a bit. Outside of just xp parties though, being able to chat while doing ls events/beseiged/endgame stuff/etc and still fighting also helped a lot. It often broke up the "strictly business" mentality that seems to pervade modern mmo group content.
#88 May 01 2013 at 10:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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3 factors helped the community in FFXI:

1. The fact that we needed a party (or at least help from other players) all the time. Players are more polite with one another when you know that you'll probably need their help later. This also acted as a filter for the most troublesome players, they had more difficulty to find help and thus left the game.

2. Lots of downtime in the game. Waiting for transportation, seeking for party, waiting on last alliance members to arrive. Naturally, we chatted during those time and that helped forging bond with other players

3. Possibility of multiple LS/guild. While some competition during end-game was normal, most of those was still respectful, because we had multiple LS. People with the opposing LS in Sky would often be in your own dynamis or Limbus LS. For my little experience in end-game WoW, were player would actually go out of their way to be a pain for others guild, it helped ~a lot~.

I sure hope we have a community as nice as FFXI in ARR

Edited, May 1st 2013 1:01pm by Pryssant
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#89 May 01 2013 at 12:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Regarding chatting and the community, let me just add that I didn't add anyone to my Friend's List unless I felt like we were actually at least becoming friends... because we had been talking.

In other games I've played, even the idea of adding someone to my Friend List seemed pointless and silly.
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#90 May 01 2013 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Regarding chatting and the community, let me just add that I didn't add anyone to my Friend's List unless I felt like we were actually at least becoming friends... because we had been talking.

In other games I've played, even the idea of adding someone to my Friend List seemed pointless and silly.


My WoW friends list has plenty of people on it. It just depends what you use it for. If you use it to see when people you like playing with are online, then there's that. If you use it as an enumeration of those who have gained your favor, well ... ok.

My friends list is always a little more sparse when adding someone to it requires their permission. I'll tend to keep it to people I've gotten to know in those instances, as opposed to just people I think are good at the game and I enjoy playing with. Being a social introvert myself, it's a little awkward for me to add people I don't know that well to a friends list that requires them to confirm that's ok.
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#91 May 01 2013 at 1:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Regarding chatting and the community, let me just add that I didn't add anyone to my Friend's List unless I felt like we were actually at least becoming friends... because we had been talking.

In other games I've played, even the idea of adding someone to my Friend List seemed pointless and silly.


My WoW friends list has plenty of people on it. It just depends what you use it for. If you use it to see when people you like playing with are online, then there's that. If you use it as an enumeration of those who have gained your favor, well ... ok.

My friends list is always a little more sparse when adding someone to it requires their permission. I'll tend to keep it to people I've gotten to know in those instances, as opposed to just people I think are good at the game and I enjoy playing with. Being a social introvert myself, it's a little awkward for me to add people I don't know that well to a friends list that requires them to confirm that's ok.


Well, if you don't really talk to the people, to me it's just "networking" i.e., identify people who play the game well and get their help when you need it. To me that's not so much community or leisure as much as "management." Personally I don't like it or appreciate it when someone is hitting me up for help to progress when we share no social exchanges. It's not about gaining favor--it's a friend list. Is this person actually kinda sorta my friend, or am I just wanting their help later because they play the game well? I'd always rather party with someone who was effortfully incompetent but pleasant than someone who played like a machine and talked just as much.

I'm pretty introverted myself, but that doesn't stop me from facilitating conversation on the internet. I mean, even posting here opens you up to more conflict and general disappointment in humanity as attempting to forge friendships in an MMO. Even Facebook requires someone to confirm you as a friend. I've nothing against faceless gaming, but these days there are better titles than MMOs for it, and all too many MMOs for it in general.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#92 May 01 2013 at 3:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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I just found out that one of my good friends from XI passed away two weeks ago.

So I'm spreading the word to all her old LSmates, just in case they hadn't heard yet.

Community in an MMO extends beyond the game itself and is what causes people to go to conventions and have meet-ups, to develop and maintain friendships that last even after some folks have quit playing and moved on, and to mourn the passing of a good player in real life.

I've been trying not to cry all day. We'll miss you, Shadechaos.
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#93 May 01 2013 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
Community in an MMO extends beyond the game itself and is what causes people to go to conventions and have meet-ups, to develop and maintain friendships that last even after some folks have quit playing and moved on, and to mourn the passing of a good player in real life.


To this day, 3 of my best friends are people I met in FFXI almost 10 years ago. We've played countless MMO's together, and I'm pretty sure we will be playing ARR together as well. ****, they have all been invited to my wedding if that says anything. One of my other good friends quit MMO's after XI, but I still talk to him regularly. I have countless other friends that I've made gaming that all bring back fond memories. So yes, the sense of community definitely goes beyond the borders of the game once those relationships are formed. It's something I never expected when I first started playing FFXI.

I'm sorry to hear about your friend.
#94 May 27 2013 at 1:55 PM Rating: Default
electromagnet83 wrote:
SaitoMishima wrote:
Quote:
Yoshida can’t say when beta phase 3 will start exactly, as it depends on Sony’s certification of the PS3 client.


I wont lie. This concerns me..

Lol jk. But no foreal, you telling me phase 3 could be longer than the 2 weeks outlined in the beta roadmap? ugh.. People are ready to try out new cities and classes.. Like Pugilist Smiley: glare


Its not Square causing the delay it is Sony ensuring the client is secure and what not. Has there ever been an mmo on PS3? I dont believe there has been. And Sony is slow...


Edited, Apr 28th 2013 11:26am by electromagnet83



Yeah there been a few mmo already on the ps3,
Dc universe
Defiance
FFXI
EQOA
#95 May 27 2013 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
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XI and EQOA are not Ps3, they are PS2.
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#96 May 27 2013 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
XI and EQOA are not Ps3, they are PS2.



Off-topic but I googled "PS3 MMOs" and got a thread with the typical notion of "MMOS are hard to do without a full keyboard because yada yada yada." Why do so many people feel this way? I played FFXI and FFXIV 1.0 and FFXIV 2.0 with a controller and loved it. I had no trouble what so ever being an awesome RDM in FFXI and being an awesome GLA in 1.0 The use of the controller definitely did not hamper my ability to play the game.

I'm not putting people down who prefer keyboard, but I don't understand where this mentality of "I need a specially designed 5,000 button keyboard to mash a bunch of buttons quickly if I am going to play an MMO. Period" came from.
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#97 May 27 2013 at 3:20 PM Rating: Excellent
I played on PS2 with a controller and USB keyboard during my prime FFXI years, and it was incredibly easy. However, FFXI was also a game made for the ps2, and the user interface reflected that. Subsequent MMOs leaned more on the hotkey-style UI, which is what ARR will be like.

Fortunately, great care is being placed on the separate gamepad UI for ARR, so people who love playing on gamepads will still be able to do so with ease. I always loved having the gamepad to manage my movement and actions, while having the keyboard for chatting and macros.
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#98 May 27 2013 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
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electromagnet83 wrote:
Ostia wrote:
XI and EQOA are not Ps3, they are PS2.



Off-topic but I googled "PS3 MMOs" and got a thread with the typical notion of "MMOS are hard to do without a full keyboard because yada yada yada." Why do so many people feel this way? I played FFXI and FFXIV 1.0 and FFXIV 2.0 with a controller and loved it. I had no trouble what so ever being an awesome RDM in FFXI and being an awesome GLA in 1.0 The use of the controller definitely did not hamper my ability to play the game.

I'm not putting people down who prefer keyboard, but I don't understand where this mentality of "I need a specially designed 5,000 button keyboard to mash a bunch of buttons quickly if I am going to play an MMO. Period" came from.

I agree. I didn't play FFXI until it came out on PS2. I played it on PS2 LONG before I ever switched to computer. Now if they had said it was hard to communicate without a keyboard then yes I agree 100% lol.. But not being able o play because its not a keyboard.. Kinda hard to understand. Though I must say, it is a whole lot easier to click a mob then to shuffle through using a d-pad. But even then, there are macros that help this.

I will probably be playing ARR on computer with keyboard and mouse mostly though. Only because I have gotten so use to it lol.
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#99 May 27 2013 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not putting people down who prefer keyboard, but I don't understand where this mentality of "I need a specially designed 5,000 button keyboard to mash a bunch of buttons quickly if I am going to play an MMO. Period" came from.


Screenshot


I'm afraid I don't see the 5000 buttons on this specially-designed keyboard.

That's how most people play MMOs btw.

I actually use one of these things myself...

Screenshot


That's certainly a specialty item. But that's not what you're demeaning people for. You're going after the standard keyboard that's been used with every computer since the word processor.

It's not a "mentality" that makes people wonder how they're supposed to deal with even FFXI's 20 macro keys on a controller with 8 buttons.

FFXIV's controller interface is VERY nice and seems to be designed with this issue in mind. But in the grand scheme of things, it's a big step forward.
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#100 May 27 2013 at 3:50 PM Rating: Decent
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SaitoMishima wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
Ostia wrote:
XI and EQOA are not Ps3, they are PS2.



Off-topic but I googled "PS3 MMOs" and got a thread with the typical notion of "MMOS are hard to do without a full keyboard because yada yada yada." Why do so many people feel this way? I played FFXI and FFXIV 1.0 and FFXIV 2.0 with a controller and loved it. I had no trouble what so ever being an awesome RDM in FFXI and being an awesome GLA in 1.0 The use of the controller definitely did not hamper my ability to play the game.

I'm not putting people down who prefer keyboard, but I don't understand where this mentality of "I need a specially designed 5,000 button keyboard to mash a bunch of buttons quickly if I am going to play an MMO. Period" came from.

I agree. I didn't play FFXI until it came out on PS2. I played it on PS2 LONG before I ever switched to computer. Now if they had said it was hard to communicate without a keyboard then yes I agree 100% lol.. But not being able o play because its not a keyboard.. Kinda hard to understand. Though I must say, it is a whole lot easier to click a mob then to shuffle through using a d-pad. But even then, there are macros that help this.

I will probably be playing ARR on computer with keyboard and mouse mostly though. Only because I have gotten so use to it lol.


I found the XI and XIV 1.0 targeting system to be surpisingly intuitive. Up selects me, left and right cycles through the mobs on the field but it generally defaults to the one you're most looking closely at. I never never really had an issue targeting with controller. Once I get my xbox keypad for 2.0 I'll never need a keyboard again!! muwwhahahah
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#101 May 27 2013 at 4:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
I'm not putting people down who prefer keyboard, but I don't understand where this mentality of "I need a specially designed 5,000 button keyboard to mash a bunch of buttons quickly if I am going to play an MMO. Period" came from.


Screenshot


I'm afraid I don't see the 5000 buttons on this specially-designed keyboard.

That's how most people play MMOs btw.

I actually use one of these things myself...

Screenshot


That's certainly a specialty item. But that's not what you're demeaning people for. You're going after the standard keyboard that's been used with every computer since the word processor.

It's not a "mentality" that makes people wonder how they're supposed to deal with even FFXI's 20 macro keys on a controller with 8 buttons.

FFXIV's controller interface is VERY nice and seems to be designed with this issue in mind. But in the grand scheme of things, it's a big step forward.


First, I'm not demeaning people. What I said was that I don't understand why so many people feel an MMO can't exist without a keyboard and a bunch of buttons being involved. And obviously the 5,000 button keyboard was not to be taken literally...obviously. But there is however a market for "MMO" keyboards and mice and my point is that an MMO doesn't need so many controls and buttons to work properly. I hope to prove this in PVP when I destroy a player with such a well designed keyboard or one such as you use which...when you really think about it is just a controller with more buttons Smiley: lol


Edited, May 27th 2013 6:16pm by electromagnet83
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