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#1 May 03 2013 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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Was wondering if there are any other means of keeping track of who gets what gear in you LS other than the point system that I used in XI? It was quiet tedious and time consuming to say the least... Is there a simpler way that any of you have used before and care to explain a little about it?
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#2 May 03 2013 at 11:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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There are all kinds of loot systems that guilds and LSes and whatever have set up throughout the years. Which one is best is entirely dependent on what works for your group.

Without going into too much detail.. you've essentially got three kinds of looting:
- Points based
- Ladder based
- Decision based

Point systems can be anywhere from straight DKP, which boils down to: kill boss, get ponts, spend points for items. To as complex as something like EPGP where your priority on loot is determined by a ratio of the points you've earned versus the items you've taken.

Ladder based systems tend to be pretty simple.. you climb the ladder by killing bosses and not taking loot, you go down the ladder by taking loot, and people at the top of the ladder have priority. Suicide Kings is a good example of this one.

The most common decision-based system is loot council, which is exactly what it sounds like it is.. some council of people is deciding who gets what whenever stuff drops.

There are going to be infinite opinions over which is best, but the answer is that there is no answer. The best one depends on your group and it's to your benefit to discuss what kind of loot system you want to have with them.
#3 May 03 2013 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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Would you mind explaining a lil more into the ladder type system please... For instance we do a run for somebody because they need it and were not there at the time of the group run...the people helping that solo person finish that must have run all get bumped up the ladder just as they would earn some form of points in a point system?
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#4 May 03 2013 at 12:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's easier to explain if I use a raid with multiple bosses.

Kill boss 1: 4 items drop, 2 people want something from the loot pool
- Raider A hasn't taken anything for a long time, he's at the top of the ladder as a result, he chooses the item he wants, and moves to the bottom of the ladder
- Raider B is 4 or 5 places down the ladder, but nobody above him wants any of the other items, he takes his thing, moves to the bottom (below A)
- The other items are disposed of by the guild since nobody wants them

Kill boss 2: 4 items drop, 7 people want something
- Start at the top of the ladder and work downward until all the loot's been distributed.
- As people take loot, move them to the bottom of the ladder, each subsequent raider will create a new bottom and push the ones above him up.

Continue that for all bosses. Every time someone takes something, they move to the bottom of the ladder, and everyone else is pushed up. This creates a priority system based on both attendance and reward. Players who attend frequently are rewarded with higher priority on loot and can ensure they get the item they want when it drops.

The primary danger here is people not taking items in order to preserve their spot for when the one thing they desperately want does finally drop. This can hinder progression because people will tend to avoid minor upgrades for fear of losing major ones.

I recommend a system like this for a more casual group that wants to reward attendance but isn't terribly concerned with min/maxing their characters. A healthy ladder system will have people taking things all the time and keeping the ladder moving in a nice fluid progression.

It's less useful for more serious groups for the reason I mentioned above. The ladder will stagnate and progression will falter as people wait for their biggest upgrades.

NB: There's another danger of someone who attends infrequently enough that they end up artificially high on the ladder. Minimum attendance rules will tend to fix this problem. But it needs to be spelled out ahead of time, or people will feel cheated.

Edited, May 3rd 2013 1:45pm by Callinon
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#5 May 03 2013 at 2:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Likely, Guildworks will provide a XIV template that includes their built in Simple DKP. I imagine a lot of linkshells will just opt to use that - especially if Yoshi P opens up the XIV API for third party apps like he promised.
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#6 May 03 2013 at 3:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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I never liked the point systems in raids. They made raiding feel like work for me.
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#7 May 03 2013 at 3:40 PM Rating: Default
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I definitely prefer game-divvied rewards to player-divvied rewards.
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#8 May 03 2013 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
I definitely prefer game-divvied rewards to player-divvied rewards.


My issue with that is that in-game loot systems are equivalent to rolling dice for everything that drops regardless of attendance or investment in a particular guild.

While I definitely agree that player-managed loot systems can be kind of arcane and they definitely require a lot more effort on behalf of the guild leadership. That being said, they have the capability of accounting for things the game can't possibly know, like attendance.

I mean, how crappy does it feel when your guild has been working together for years, and you replace someone, and then that guy gets the drop you've been waiting 6 months to see and immediately leaves.

THAT'S what player-managed loot systems prevent.
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#9 May 03 2013 at 4:15 PM Rating: Default
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so yoshi has stated there will be an ingame application for keeping a point system? and i agree with the above stated that the point system felt (being the one keeping up with it all) like another job away from real work...
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#10 May 03 2013 at 4:39 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Kachi wrote:
I definitely prefer game-divvied rewards to player-divvied rewards.


My issue with that is that in-game loot systems are equivalent to rolling dice for everything that drops regardless of attendance or investment in a particular guild.

While I definitely agree that player-managed loot systems can be kind of arcane and they definitely require a lot more effort on behalf of the guild leadership. That being said, they have the capability of accounting for things the game can't possibly know, like attendance.

I mean, how crappy does it feel when your guild has been working together for years, and you replace someone, and then that guy gets the drop you've been waiting 6 months to see and immediately leaves.

THAT'S what player-managed loot systems prevent.


Yep. I recently joined an HNM again in XI now that school is, for all intents and purposes, over. One of their rules is "two weeks before you can lot any drops." I have 0 problem with that, especially since I'm planning on building up my points for a long time anyway. (I need 5 umbral marrows - whole reason I rejoined an HNM, really.)
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#11 May 04 2013 at 11:28 AM Rating: Default
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Player points are the worst thing that can happen to a guild/LS, they always bring drama, and abuse, the game fixes this issue on itself, with need/greed/pass, if you need it roll for it, and let the RNG gods deal with it, no drama, no cheating, no abuse, you can also add a "Cannot roll for 2 weeks if you are new rule" or a "Can only roll for active job/class" etc etc.
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#12 May 04 2013 at 11:39 AM Rating: Default
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Very good point ostia and I think this might be how I run my group... Only roll on the job/class your currently playing unless told to bring another for lack of participation... Then may loot on your main and currently being used
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#13 May 04 2013 at 11:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
Player points are the worst thing that can happen to a guild/LS, they always bring drama, and abuse, the game fixes this issue on itself, with need/greed/pass, if you need it roll for it, and let the RNG gods deal with it, no drama, no cheating, no abuse, you can also add a "Cannot roll for 2 weeks if you are new rule" or a "Can only roll for active job/class" etc etc.


It'll always come down to what works best for a particular group of people. No two linkshells, guilds, or knitting circles are exactly the same.

There are plenty where points-based systems like DKP work perfectly well. In fact, systems like that are designed with the intention of eliminating the drama that comes from open roll systems.
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#14 May 04 2013 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
There are plenty where points-based systems like DKP work perfectly well. In fact, systems like that are designed with the intention of eliminating the drama that comes from open roll systems.


This is why points system, when run by a guild leadership that isn't corrupt, promotes a non-drama environment. The points are cold, harsh, and factual and emotions or biaism doesn't come into play. I agree completely.

Relying on free lots, "let's pass loot freely", and other methods aren't methodical and have no rhyme or reasoning. It *always* culminates into a massive issue that drives people apart and usually away from the linkshell/guild. They don't work effectively over a long period of time, they never have, and never will.

Both systems can be corrupted by leadership, but only a point system ran effectively curtails any complaints of favoritism.

Personally I've been a fan of EPGP because it rewards effort as well as attendance: if you don't show up for a while you fall down the "list" due to natural point decay. The decay is usually percentage based so if everyone shows up all the time the ratio/loot eligibility doesn't change, only those not attending events suffer (and rightfully so).




Edited, May 4th 2013 2:53pm by Viertel
#15 May 04 2013 at 1:40 PM Rating: Default
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Player points are the worst thing that can happen to a guild/LS, they always bring drama, and abuse, the game fixes this issue on itself, with need/greed/pass, if you need it roll for it, and let the RNG gods deal with it, no drama, no cheating, no abuse, you can also add a "Cannot roll for 2 weeks if you are new rule" or a "Can only roll for active job/class" etc etc.


It'll always come down to what works best for a particular group of people. No two linkshells, guilds, or knitting circles are exactly the same.

There are plenty where points-based systems like DKP work perfectly well. In fact, systems like that are designed with the intention of eliminating the drama that comes from open roll systems.


Need/Greed/Pass eliminate all the drama, that should not be in the first place in a LS/Guild. If you and 3 others need an item and you roll and lose, you lost, no system to blame, no "Oh but he only has more DKP than me, because last raid you guys did not invite me" etc etc. Is cold hard RNG. There is nothing more hard and actually factual than that.... Everything else is just exploitable.
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#16 May 04 2013 at 1:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
"Oh but he only has more DKP than me, because last raid you guys did not invite me"


99% of DKP systems award points for being available even if you aren't invited to the raid.
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#17 May 04 2013 at 2:43 PM Rating: Default
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
"Oh but he only has more DKP than me, because last raid you guys did not invite me"


99% of DKP systems award points for being available even if you aren't invited to the raid.


100% of DKP systems are controlled by the GM.... Rolling is not controlled by anybody, i have seen plenty of times when DKP points have been removed, from players for X or Y reason, DKP has a place if you are running a G/LS of random people, and always have an influx of random people.
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#18 May 04 2013 at 4:38 PM Rating: Default
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Viertel wrote:
Relying on free lots, "let's pass loot freely", and other methods aren't methodical and have no rhyme or reasoning. It *always* culminates into a massive issue that drives people apart and usually away from the linkshell/guild. They don't work effectively over a long period of time, they never have, and never will.]


Ugh, I hate when people talk in absolutes about things they obviously don't understand. In swtor, my guild had a free lot system based on the Need/Greed/Pass implemented into the game. You only rolled on stuff for your class, and if you won a piece that run, you passed the rest unless no one else needed. In the full year that I ran with them, there was not one issue over gear, other than people feeling bad about joining a run for the first time and passing on stuff, even if they were told they could lot. The system worked great, there was never one iota of drama based on it, and everyone got what they wanted eventually. As long as you are playing with a group of mature, responsible people, the free lot system is excellent, and I highly encourage it. It encourages people to come on raids, because as long as they are there and participate, they have a chance at getting gear.

DKP works well also, but for casual players it really stinks, because for those who can't make a run all the time, they get left in the dust points-wise to those who have a more open schedule. To me, I'd much rather just have the people who come to an event be able to lot on items they can use. That way you aren't constantly getting screwed just because you can't play all the time. It also encourages those players without a ton of play-time to actually come to events, because they won't feel discouraged by being 100 points behind the hardcore dudes who come to every single event.

Viertel wrote:
Personally I've been a fan of EPGP because it rewards effort as well as attendance: if you don't show up for a while you fall down the "list" due to natural point decay. The decay is usually percentage based so if everyone shows up all the time the ratio/loot eligibility doesn't change, only those not attending events suffer (and rightfully so).


So basically, ***** the casual players in favor of the hardcore players. I understand the philosophy, and have been in shells in ffxi that did this, and what I found was that there was WAY more drama in those shells, because the hardcores got all the loot and everyone else got jack sh*t unless they drop their real life schedule for the game. If you're in a hardcore shell, I guess it makes sense. But for anything else, it seems pretty backwards.

Edited, May 4th 2013 6:44pm by BartelX
#19 May 04 2013 at 4:47 PM Rating: Good
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That didn't work in XI, where people had more than one job leveled. It won't work in XIV, where people will also have more than one job leveled.

If someone comes on a conjurer every raid because the group needs a healer, but their preferred class is lancer, it's not fair to tell them they can't lot on lancer stuff. Just because the group never sees them on lancer doesn't mean they don't have it leveled up and prefer to play it.

In tight knit, smaller groups where everyone knows everyone else's jobs and preferences, it's not a big deal. My Meebles group in FFXI doesn't bother with points. If something BRD THF or BLM drops, they'll probably let me lot on it. (Bard stuff is all mine. MINE! Smiley: nod) If something drops for a SAM, it'll go to the two folks who play SAM. Etc.

That kind of personal courtesy falls apart in large HNM shells, where there's sometimes fifty to a hundred people who are in the shell, even if only a quarter to a third can make it to any given raid. I'd say any group larger than 20 needs to have a points system in place, or else it's just asking for drama.
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#20 May 04 2013 at 4:48 PM Rating: Good
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Please i will never forget when i was in a hardcore raiding guild in wow with a dkp. I just joined so i had like no points and first day i joined i went to the raid. Dropped a healers item that i needed and the other healer didn't. And the Raid leader refused to give it to me and instead took it and sold it for gold because i didn't have enough points. Seriously? How is that ok? No one wanted that item and just because i didn't have enough points yet, he took it and refused to let me take it. Oh the rage i put on them it was my first and last day on that guild. I also got reported as well.
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#21 May 04 2013 at 4:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
That didn't work in XI, where people had more than one job leveled. It won't work in XIV, where people will also have more than one job leveled.

If someone comes on a conjurer every raid because the group needs a healer, but their preferred class is lancer, it's not fair to tell them they can't lot on lancer stuff. Just because the group never sees them on lancer doesn't mean they don't have it leveled up and prefer to play it.


Very simple solution: prior to the start of an event, ask what main job players would like to lot items for. When said item drops, those players who put that as their main lot on it. If no one wants it, it goes free lot to anyone who has the job leveled to use it.
#22 May 04 2013 at 4:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Kachi wrote:
I definitely prefer game-divvied rewards to player-divvied rewards.


My issue with that is that in-game loot systems are equivalent to rolling dice for everything that drops regardless of attendance or investment in a particular guild.

While I definitely agree that player-managed loot systems can be kind of arcane and they definitely require a lot more effort on behalf of the guild leadership. That being said, they have the capability of accounting for things the game can't possibly know, like attendance.

I mean, how crappy does it feel when your guild has been working together for years, and you replace someone, and then that guy gets the drop you've been waiting 6 months to see and immediately leaves.

THAT'S what player-managed loot systems prevent.


The thing is, there are no things related to game attendance that the game can't know. The game can know everything. Why does loot drop at all? Because the game knows that you fulfilled the requirements for the loot to drop. You complete a task, and you are rewarded with something--this is how almost every game in the world works.

The problem is when game designers are lazy and don't want to build the structures needed to track progress and reward appropriately, but even any half-assed game designer knows that feedback loops are one of the foundations of all games. It's a video game's JOB to manage the rewards. That's what it does! Arguably, that's the main thing that it does!

What it comes down to is this one truism: simple solutions require less work, but they also don't usually solve as many problems. When you're in an industry that rakes in many millions of dollars based on your disposition towards solving problems, you put your thinking cap on and build a system that minimizes the **** problems. There's nothing a player-managed loot system can do that a computerized system can't, other than automatically account for out-of-game work and subjective assessments. And it can even account for those if you provide a means of player input!
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#23 May 04 2013 at 5:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Teravibe wrote:
Please i will never forget when i was in a hardcore raiding guild in wow with a dkp. I just joined so i had like no points and first day i joined i went to the raid. Dropped a healers item that i needed and the other healer didn't. And the Raid leader refused to give it to me and instead took it and sold it for gold because i didn't have enough points. Seriously? How is that ok? No one wanted that item and just because i didn't have enough points yet, he took it and refused to let me take it. Oh the rage i put on them it was my first and last day on that guild. I also got reported as well.


The HNM I just joined stated up front that new members can't lot anything for the first two weeks, but will earn points during that time which can later be used for lotting. That's how most of them actually go.

Did your rules say something similar? If so, then that's how endgame shells roll. They use the gil/gold to buy pop sets or other items that people need with points.

Now, if they didn't tell you up front that you'd have to put in time before getting stuff, then it's kind of scuzzy. But I ran a major endgame linkshell for four years, and I can't tell you how many times we had someone show up for one run, get lucky and win a rare item that no one else needed, and then entirely fail to show up ever again.
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#24 May 04 2013 at 5:28 PM Rating: Default
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Catwho wrote:
That didn't work in XI, where people had more than one job leveled. It won't work in XIV, where people will also have more than one job leveled.

If someone comes on a conjurer every raid because the group needs a healer, but their preferred class is lancer, it's not fair to tell them they can't lot on lancer stuff. Just because the group never sees them on lancer doesn't mean they don't have it leveled up and prefer to play it.

In tight knit, smaller groups where everyone knows everyone else's jobs and preferences, it's not a big deal. My Meebles group in FFXI doesn't bother with points. If something BRD THF or BLM drops, they'll probably let me lot on it. (Bard stuff is all mine. MINE! Smiley: nod) If something drops for a SAM, it'll go to the two folks who play SAM. Etc.

That kind of personal courtesy falls apart in large HNM shells, where there's sometimes fifty to a hundred people who are in the shell, even if only a quarter to a third can make it to any given raid. I'd say any group larger than 20 needs to have a points system in place, or else it's just asking for drama.


There wont be HNM in ARR, atleast not like in XI, if is understood that X person comes as a healer, because we need it, but his main class is lancer, then he can roll for lancer gear, just as he would be able to use his DKP for lancer gear, there is no excuse to not use Need/Greed/Pass other than greedy need to control loot distribution.
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#25 May 04 2013 at 5:48 PM Rating: Decent
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I can't talk about my experiences with Need/Greed/Pass since dungeons aren't out of NDA yet. Once it's lifted you can hear my thoughts on how THAT experience went...
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#26 May 04 2013 at 6:02 PM Rating: Default
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Ostia wrote:
Catwho wrote:
That didn't work in XI, where people had more than one job leveled. It won't work in XIV, where people will also have more than one job leveled.

If someone comes on a conjurer every raid because the group needs a healer, but their preferred class is lancer, it's not fair to tell them they can't lot on lancer stuff. Just because the group never sees them on lancer doesn't mean they don't have it leveled up and prefer to play it.

In tight knit, smaller groups where everyone knows everyone else's jobs and preferences, it's not a big deal. My Meebles group in FFXI doesn't bother with points. If something BRD THF or BLM drops, they'll probably let me lot on it. (Bard stuff is all mine. MINE! Smiley: nod) If something drops for a SAM, it'll go to the two folks who play SAM. Etc.

That kind of personal courtesy falls apart in large HNM shells, where there's sometimes fifty to a hundred people who are in the shell, even if only a quarter to a third can make it to any given raid. I'd say any group larger than 20 needs to have a points system in place, or else it's just asking for drama.


There wont be HNM in ARR, atleast not like in XI, if is understood that X person comes as a healer, because we need it, but his main class is lancer, then he can roll for lancer gear, just as he would be able to use his DKP for lancer gear, there is no excuse to not use Need/Greed/Pass other than greedy need to control loot distribution.


Would you look at that, Ostia and I agreeing on something. Oh God, the sky is falling!! Smiley: eek
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