Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
Reply To Thread

EG point system or other?Follow

#1 May 03 2013 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
456 posts
Was wondering if there are any other means of keeping track of who gets what gear in you LS other than the point system that I used in XI? It was quiet tedious and time consuming to say the least... Is there a simpler way that any of you have used before and care to explain a little about it?
____________________________
Moderator-75thf 75nin 75pld Hume
LS- WanderingTrupaTricks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Diabolos~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mori Oni- 50MNK 20LNC 11GLD Miquote
LS- The Inner Circle
FC- Primal Bane
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Ultros~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
#2 May 03 2013 at 11:55 AM Rating: Excellent
***
3,386 posts
There are all kinds of loot systems that guilds and LSes and whatever have set up throughout the years. Which one is best is entirely dependent on what works for your group.

Without going into too much detail.. you've essentially got three kinds of looting:
- Points based
- Ladder based
- Decision based

Point systems can be anywhere from straight DKP, which boils down to: kill boss, get ponts, spend points for items. To as complex as something like EPGP where your priority on loot is determined by a ratio of the points you've earned versus the items you've taken.

Ladder based systems tend to be pretty simple.. you climb the ladder by killing bosses and not taking loot, you go down the ladder by taking loot, and people at the top of the ladder have priority. Suicide Kings is a good example of this one.

The most common decision-based system is loot council, which is exactly what it sounds like it is.. some council of people is deciding who gets what whenever stuff drops.

There are going to be infinite opinions over which is best, but the answer is that there is no answer. The best one depends on your group and it's to your benefit to discuss what kind of loot system you want to have with them.
#3 May 03 2013 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
456 posts
Would you mind explaining a lil more into the ladder type system please... For instance we do a run for somebody because they need it and were not there at the time of the group run...the people helping that solo person finish that must have run all get bumped up the ladder just as they would earn some form of points in a point system?
____________________________
Moderator-75thf 75nin 75pld Hume
LS- WanderingTrupaTricks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Diabolos~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mori Oni- 50MNK 20LNC 11GLD Miquote
LS- The Inner Circle
FC- Primal Bane
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Ultros~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
#4 May 03 2013 at 12:42 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,386 posts
It's easier to explain if I use a raid with multiple bosses.

Kill boss 1: 4 items drop, 2 people want something from the loot pool
- Raider A hasn't taken anything for a long time, he's at the top of the ladder as a result, he chooses the item he wants, and moves to the bottom of the ladder
- Raider B is 4 or 5 places down the ladder, but nobody above him wants any of the other items, he takes his thing, moves to the bottom (below A)
- The other items are disposed of by the guild since nobody wants them

Kill boss 2: 4 items drop, 7 people want something
- Start at the top of the ladder and work downward until all the loot's been distributed.
- As people take loot, move them to the bottom of the ladder, each subsequent raider will create a new bottom and push the ones above him up.

Continue that for all bosses. Every time someone takes something, they move to the bottom of the ladder, and everyone else is pushed up. This creates a priority system based on both attendance and reward. Players who attend frequently are rewarded with higher priority on loot and can ensure they get the item they want when it drops.

The primary danger here is people not taking items in order to preserve their spot for when the one thing they desperately want does finally drop. This can hinder progression because people will tend to avoid minor upgrades for fear of losing major ones.

I recommend a system like this for a more casual group that wants to reward attendance but isn't terribly concerned with min/maxing their characters. A healthy ladder system will have people taking things all the time and keeping the ladder moving in a nice fluid progression.

It's less useful for more serious groups for the reason I mentioned above. The ladder will stagnate and progression will falter as people wait for their biggest upgrades.

NB: There's another danger of someone who attends infrequently enough that they end up artificially high on the ladder. Minimum attendance rules will tend to fix this problem. But it needs to be spelled out ahead of time, or people will feel cheated.

Edited, May 3rd 2013 1:45pm by Callinon
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#5 May 03 2013 at 2:58 PM Rating: Excellent
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
Likely, Guildworks will provide a XIV template that includes their built in Simple DKP. I imagine a lot of linkshells will just opt to use that - especially if Yoshi P opens up the XIV API for third party apps like he promised.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#6 May 03 2013 at 3:17 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
**
837 posts
I never liked the point systems in raids. They made raiding feel like work for me.
____________________________
YaY signature!! (i was never good with signatures >_<)

Grim Reaperz (Ultros server)
#7 May 03 2013 at 3:40 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
I definitely prefer game-divvied rewards to player-divvied rewards.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#8 May 03 2013 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
***
3,386 posts
Kachi wrote:
I definitely prefer game-divvied rewards to player-divvied rewards.


My issue with that is that in-game loot systems are equivalent to rolling dice for everything that drops regardless of attendance or investment in a particular guild.

While I definitely agree that player-managed loot systems can be kind of arcane and they definitely require a lot more effort on behalf of the guild leadership. That being said, they have the capability of accounting for things the game can't possibly know, like attendance.

I mean, how crappy does it feel when your guild has been working together for years, and you replace someone, and then that guy gets the drop you've been waiting 6 months to see and immediately leaves.

THAT'S what player-managed loot systems prevent.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#9 May 03 2013 at 4:15 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
**
456 posts
so yoshi has stated there will be an ingame application for keeping a point system? and i agree with the above stated that the point system felt (being the one keeping up with it all) like another job away from real work...
____________________________
Moderator-75thf 75nin 75pld Hume
LS- WanderingTrupaTricks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Diabolos~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mori Oni- 50MNK 20LNC 11GLD Miquote
LS- The Inner Circle
FC- Primal Bane
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Ultros~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
#10 May 03 2013 at 4:39 PM Rating: Good
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Kachi wrote:
I definitely prefer game-divvied rewards to player-divvied rewards.


My issue with that is that in-game loot systems are equivalent to rolling dice for everything that drops regardless of attendance or investment in a particular guild.

While I definitely agree that player-managed loot systems can be kind of arcane and they definitely require a lot more effort on behalf of the guild leadership. That being said, they have the capability of accounting for things the game can't possibly know, like attendance.

I mean, how crappy does it feel when your guild has been working together for years, and you replace someone, and then that guy gets the drop you've been waiting 6 months to see and immediately leaves.

THAT'S what player-managed loot systems prevent.


Yep. I recently joined an HNM again in XI now that school is, for all intents and purposes, over. One of their rules is "two weeks before you can lot any drops." I have 0 problem with that, especially since I'm planning on building up my points for a long time anyway. (I need 5 umbral marrows - whole reason I rejoined an HNM, really.)
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#11 May 04 2013 at 11:28 AM Rating: Default
***
2,202 posts
Player points are the worst thing that can happen to a guild/LS, they always bring drama, and abuse, the game fixes this issue on itself, with need/greed/pass, if you need it roll for it, and let the RNG gods deal with it, no drama, no cheating, no abuse, you can also add a "Cannot roll for 2 weeks if you are new rule" or a "Can only roll for active job/class" etc etc.
____________________________
MUTED
#12 May 04 2013 at 11:39 AM Rating: Default
Avatar
**
456 posts
Very good point ostia and I think this might be how I run my group... Only roll on the job/class your currently playing unless told to bring another for lack of participation... Then may loot on your main and currently being used
____________________________
Moderator-75thf 75nin 75pld Hume
LS- WanderingTrupaTricks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Diabolos~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mori Oni- 50MNK 20LNC 11GLD Miquote
LS- The Inner Circle
FC- Primal Bane
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Ultros~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
#13 May 04 2013 at 11:42 AM Rating: Excellent
***
3,386 posts
Ostia wrote:
Player points are the worst thing that can happen to a guild/LS, they always bring drama, and abuse, the game fixes this issue on itself, with need/greed/pass, if you need it roll for it, and let the RNG gods deal with it, no drama, no cheating, no abuse, you can also add a "Cannot roll for 2 weeks if you are new rule" or a "Can only roll for active job/class" etc etc.


It'll always come down to what works best for a particular group of people. No two linkshells, guilds, or knitting circles are exactly the same.

There are plenty where points-based systems like DKP work perfectly well. In fact, systems like that are designed with the intention of eliminating the drama that comes from open roll systems.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#14 May 04 2013 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
***
1,337 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:
There are plenty where points-based systems like DKP work perfectly well. In fact, systems like that are designed with the intention of eliminating the drama that comes from open roll systems.


This is why points system, when run by a guild leadership that isn't corrupt, promotes a non-drama environment. The points are cold, harsh, and factual and emotions or biaism doesn't come into play. I agree completely.

Relying on free lots, "let's pass loot freely", and other methods aren't methodical and have no rhyme or reasoning. It *always* culminates into a massive issue that drives people apart and usually away from the linkshell/guild. They don't work effectively over a long period of time, they never have, and never will.

Both systems can be corrupted by leadership, but only a point system ran effectively curtails any complaints of favoritism.

Personally I've been a fan of EPGP because it rewards effort as well as attendance: if you don't show up for a while you fall down the "list" due to natural point decay. The decay is usually percentage based so if everyone shows up all the time the ratio/loot eligibility doesn't change, only those not attending events suffer (and rightfully so).




Edited, May 4th 2013 2:53pm by Viertel
#15 May 04 2013 at 1:40 PM Rating: Default
***
2,202 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Player points are the worst thing that can happen to a guild/LS, they always bring drama, and abuse, the game fixes this issue on itself, with need/greed/pass, if you need it roll for it, and let the RNG gods deal with it, no drama, no cheating, no abuse, you can also add a "Cannot roll for 2 weeks if you are new rule" or a "Can only roll for active job/class" etc etc.


It'll always come down to what works best for a particular group of people. No two linkshells, guilds, or knitting circles are exactly the same.

There are plenty where points-based systems like DKP work perfectly well. In fact, systems like that are designed with the intention of eliminating the drama that comes from open roll systems.


Need/Greed/Pass eliminate all the drama, that should not be in the first place in a LS/Guild. If you and 3 others need an item and you roll and lose, you lost, no system to blame, no "Oh but he only has more DKP than me, because last raid you guys did not invite me" etc etc. Is cold hard RNG. There is nothing more hard and actually factual than that.... Everything else is just exploitable.
____________________________
MUTED
#16 May 04 2013 at 1:51 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,386 posts
Quote:
"Oh but he only has more DKP than me, because last raid you guys did not invite me"


99% of DKP systems award points for being available even if you aren't invited to the raid.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#17 May 04 2013 at 2:43 PM Rating: Default
***
2,202 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
"Oh but he only has more DKP than me, because last raid you guys did not invite me"


99% of DKP systems award points for being available even if you aren't invited to the raid.


100% of DKP systems are controlled by the GM.... Rolling is not controlled by anybody, i have seen plenty of times when DKP points have been removed, from players for X or Y reason, DKP has a place if you are running a G/LS of random people, and always have an influx of random people.
____________________________
MUTED
#18 May 04 2013 at 4:38 PM Rating: Default
****
6,898 posts
Viertel wrote:
Relying on free lots, "let's pass loot freely", and other methods aren't methodical and have no rhyme or reasoning. It *always* culminates into a massive issue that drives people apart and usually away from the linkshell/guild. They don't work effectively over a long period of time, they never have, and never will.]


Ugh, I hate when people talk in absolutes about things they obviously don't understand. In swtor, my guild had a free lot system based on the Need/Greed/Pass implemented into the game. You only rolled on stuff for your class, and if you won a piece that run, you passed the rest unless no one else needed. In the full year that I ran with them, there was not one issue over gear, other than people feeling bad about joining a run for the first time and passing on stuff, even if they were told they could lot. The system worked great, there was never one iota of drama based on it, and everyone got what they wanted eventually. As long as you are playing with a group of mature, responsible people, the free lot system is excellent, and I highly encourage it. It encourages people to come on raids, because as long as they are there and participate, they have a chance at getting gear.

DKP works well also, but for casual players it really stinks, because for those who can't make a run all the time, they get left in the dust points-wise to those who have a more open schedule. To me, I'd much rather just have the people who come to an event be able to lot on items they can use. That way you aren't constantly getting screwed just because you can't play all the time. It also encourages those players without a ton of play-time to actually come to events, because they won't feel discouraged by being 100 points behind the hardcore dudes who come to every single event.

Viertel wrote:
Personally I've been a fan of EPGP because it rewards effort as well as attendance: if you don't show up for a while you fall down the "list" due to natural point decay. The decay is usually percentage based so if everyone shows up all the time the ratio/loot eligibility doesn't change, only those not attending events suffer (and rightfully so).


So basically, ***** the casual players in favor of the hardcore players. I understand the philosophy, and have been in shells in ffxi that did this, and what I found was that there was WAY more drama in those shells, because the hardcores got all the loot and everyone else got jack sh*t unless they drop their real life schedule for the game. If you're in a hardcore shell, I guess it makes sense. But for anything else, it seems pretty backwards.

Edited, May 4th 2013 6:44pm by BartelX
#19 May 04 2013 at 4:47 PM Rating: Good
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
That didn't work in XI, where people had more than one job leveled. It won't work in XIV, where people will also have more than one job leveled.

If someone comes on a conjurer every raid because the group needs a healer, but their preferred class is lancer, it's not fair to tell them they can't lot on lancer stuff. Just because the group never sees them on lancer doesn't mean they don't have it leveled up and prefer to play it.

In tight knit, smaller groups where everyone knows everyone else's jobs and preferences, it's not a big deal. My Meebles group in FFXI doesn't bother with points. If something BRD THF or BLM drops, they'll probably let me lot on it. (Bard stuff is all mine. MINE! Smiley: nod) If something drops for a SAM, it'll go to the two folks who play SAM. Etc.

That kind of personal courtesy falls apart in large HNM shells, where there's sometimes fifty to a hundred people who are in the shell, even if only a quarter to a third can make it to any given raid. I'd say any group larger than 20 needs to have a points system in place, or else it's just asking for drama.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#20 May 04 2013 at 4:48 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
837 posts
Please i will never forget when i was in a hardcore raiding guild in wow with a dkp. I just joined so i had like no points and first day i joined i went to the raid. Dropped a healers item that i needed and the other healer didn't. And the Raid leader refused to give it to me and instead took it and sold it for gold because i didn't have enough points. Seriously? How is that ok? No one wanted that item and just because i didn't have enough points yet, he took it and refused to let me take it. Oh the rage i put on them it was my first and last day on that guild. I also got reported as well.
____________________________
YaY signature!! (i was never good with signatures >_<)

Grim Reaperz (Ultros server)
#21 May 04 2013 at 4:54 PM Rating: Decent
****
6,898 posts
Catwho wrote:
That didn't work in XI, where people had more than one job leveled. It won't work in XIV, where people will also have more than one job leveled.

If someone comes on a conjurer every raid because the group needs a healer, but their preferred class is lancer, it's not fair to tell them they can't lot on lancer stuff. Just because the group never sees them on lancer doesn't mean they don't have it leveled up and prefer to play it.


Very simple solution: prior to the start of an event, ask what main job players would like to lot items for. When said item drops, those players who put that as their main lot on it. If no one wants it, it goes free lot to anyone who has the job leveled to use it.
#22 May 04 2013 at 4:54 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Kachi wrote:
I definitely prefer game-divvied rewards to player-divvied rewards.


My issue with that is that in-game loot systems are equivalent to rolling dice for everything that drops regardless of attendance or investment in a particular guild.

While I definitely agree that player-managed loot systems can be kind of arcane and they definitely require a lot more effort on behalf of the guild leadership. That being said, they have the capability of accounting for things the game can't possibly know, like attendance.

I mean, how crappy does it feel when your guild has been working together for years, and you replace someone, and then that guy gets the drop you've been waiting 6 months to see and immediately leaves.

THAT'S what player-managed loot systems prevent.


The thing is, there are no things related to game attendance that the game can't know. The game can know everything. Why does loot drop at all? Because the game knows that you fulfilled the requirements for the loot to drop. You complete a task, and you are rewarded with something--this is how almost every game in the world works.

The problem is when game designers are lazy and don't want to build the structures needed to track progress and reward appropriately, but even any half-assed game designer knows that feedback loops are one of the foundations of all games. It's a video game's JOB to manage the rewards. That's what it does! Arguably, that's the main thing that it does!

What it comes down to is this one truism: simple solutions require less work, but they also don't usually solve as many problems. When you're in an industry that rakes in many millions of dollars based on your disposition towards solving problems, you put your thinking cap on and build a system that minimizes the **** problems. There's nothing a player-managed loot system can do that a computerized system can't, other than automatically account for out-of-game work and subjective assessments. And it can even account for those if you provide a means of player input!
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#23 May 04 2013 at 5:17 PM Rating: Excellent
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
Teravibe wrote:
Please i will never forget when i was in a hardcore raiding guild in wow with a dkp. I just joined so i had like no points and first day i joined i went to the raid. Dropped a healers item that i needed and the other healer didn't. And the Raid leader refused to give it to me and instead took it and sold it for gold because i didn't have enough points. Seriously? How is that ok? No one wanted that item and just because i didn't have enough points yet, he took it and refused to let me take it. Oh the rage i put on them it was my first and last day on that guild. I also got reported as well.


The HNM I just joined stated up front that new members can't lot anything for the first two weeks, but will earn points during that time which can later be used for lotting. That's how most of them actually go.

Did your rules say something similar? If so, then that's how endgame shells roll. They use the gil/gold to buy pop sets or other items that people need with points.

Now, if they didn't tell you up front that you'd have to put in time before getting stuff, then it's kind of scuzzy. But I ran a major endgame linkshell for four years, and I can't tell you how many times we had someone show up for one run, get lucky and win a rare item that no one else needed, and then entirely fail to show up ever again.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#24 May 04 2013 at 5:28 PM Rating: Default
***
2,202 posts
Catwho wrote:
That didn't work in XI, where people had more than one job leveled. It won't work in XIV, where people will also have more than one job leveled.

If someone comes on a conjurer every raid because the group needs a healer, but their preferred class is lancer, it's not fair to tell them they can't lot on lancer stuff. Just because the group never sees them on lancer doesn't mean they don't have it leveled up and prefer to play it.

In tight knit, smaller groups where everyone knows everyone else's jobs and preferences, it's not a big deal. My Meebles group in FFXI doesn't bother with points. If something BRD THF or BLM drops, they'll probably let me lot on it. (Bard stuff is all mine. MINE! Smiley: nod) If something drops for a SAM, it'll go to the two folks who play SAM. Etc.

That kind of personal courtesy falls apart in large HNM shells, where there's sometimes fifty to a hundred people who are in the shell, even if only a quarter to a third can make it to any given raid. I'd say any group larger than 20 needs to have a points system in place, or else it's just asking for drama.


There wont be HNM in ARR, atleast not like in XI, if is understood that X person comes as a healer, because we need it, but his main class is lancer, then he can roll for lancer gear, just as he would be able to use his DKP for lancer gear, there is no excuse to not use Need/Greed/Pass other than greedy need to control loot distribution.
____________________________
MUTED
#25 May 04 2013 at 5:48 PM Rating: Decent
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
I can't talk about my experiences with Need/Greed/Pass since dungeons aren't out of NDA yet. Once it's lifted you can hear my thoughts on how THAT experience went...
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#26 May 04 2013 at 6:02 PM Rating: Default
****
6,898 posts
Ostia wrote:
Catwho wrote:
That didn't work in XI, where people had more than one job leveled. It won't work in XIV, where people will also have more than one job leveled.

If someone comes on a conjurer every raid because the group needs a healer, but their preferred class is lancer, it's not fair to tell them they can't lot on lancer stuff. Just because the group never sees them on lancer doesn't mean they don't have it leveled up and prefer to play it.

In tight knit, smaller groups where everyone knows everyone else's jobs and preferences, it's not a big deal. My Meebles group in FFXI doesn't bother with points. If something BRD THF or BLM drops, they'll probably let me lot on it. (Bard stuff is all mine. MINE! Smiley: nod) If something drops for a SAM, it'll go to the two folks who play SAM. Etc.

That kind of personal courtesy falls apart in large HNM shells, where there's sometimes fifty to a hundred people who are in the shell, even if only a quarter to a third can make it to any given raid. I'd say any group larger than 20 needs to have a points system in place, or else it's just asking for drama.


There wont be HNM in ARR, atleast not like in XI, if is understood that X person comes as a healer, because we need it, but his main class is lancer, then he can roll for lancer gear, just as he would be able to use his DKP for lancer gear, there is no excuse to not use Need/Greed/Pass other than greedy need to control loot distribution.


Would you look at that, Ostia and I agreeing on something. Oh God, the sky is falling!! Smiley: eek
#27 May 04 2013 at 6:32 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
***
1,310 posts
Our shell in FFXI did a point system where you got X number of points for farming events (depending on how time consuming). Then for boss fights that dropped treasure, you placed a blind bid for the drops using as many of your points you wanted (we knew in advance who wanted what so as not to overlook anyone during the treasure pool window). So even someone who just started could get something no one particularly wanted, and it also prevented "point bloat" among those who were around awhile.
#28 May 04 2013 at 7:27 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
**
456 posts
Quote:
If someone comes on a conjurer every raid because the group needs a healer, but their preferred class is lancer, it's not fair to tell them they can't lot on lancer stuff. Just because the group never sees them on lancer doesn't mean they don't have it leveled up and prefer to play it.


In such case he needs to make it known before the raid or whatever end game ordeal is going on that he is need rolling on lancer gear for this run and thats it... sounds like an easier method which makes everyone happier... and if gear drops which no one wants and you happen to have the job leveled why not snag it, but for those whom came for that piece are def first rolls.
____________________________
Moderator-75thf 75nin 75pld Hume
LS- WanderingTrupaTricks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Diabolos~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mori Oni- 50MNK 20LNC 11GLD Miquote
LS- The Inner Circle
FC- Primal Bane
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Ultros~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
#29 May 04 2013 at 9:04 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,386 posts
I'm not sure how many other ways I can say that every group is different and will have different needs when it comes to loot distribution. Please stop speaking in absolutes.

If your LS is too casual for a point-system to work, don't use one, you probably don't need it anyway because you aren't pushing progression like that.

In my own history I've had guilds that used free-roll (need/greed/pass) to handle loot. I've had guilds that used loot councils. I've had guilds that used point-systems. Each worked for the respective guild just fine. My PERSONAL favorite was EPGP because I thought it handled time-investment vs reward quite well without being overly punishing if someone had to miss a raid here and there, as long as it didn't happen a lot. The guild I was in at the time was focused on progressing through the raid, and everyone was committed to that goal.

There's no such thing as one system that works for everyone. There's no such thing as a best system to handle loot. There's no such thing as a system that ALWAYS works, nor is there a system that NEVER works.

Oh and...

Kachi wrote:
The problem is when game designers are lazy and don't want to build the structures needed to track progress and reward appropriately


That's just asinine and you know it.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#30 May 04 2013 at 10:12 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Uh, ********* I'm happy to disagree with you, but you'd have to actually present a counter-argument first. Personally, I'm not only totally serious, but 100% confident in my assertion.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#31 May 04 2013 at 10:32 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,386 posts
Kachi wrote:
Uh, bullsh*t. I'm happy to disagree with you, but you'd have to actually present a counter-argument first. Personally, I'm not only totally serious, but 100% confident in my assertion.


Your assertion was that game designers are lazy when they don't pre-program a method by which the game keeps track of data that's used only for administrative purposes for a tiny fraction of guilds? Did I get that right?

That's not laziness, that's project management. While a system like that might, in some edge cases, be helpful to have built-in; everyone who wants it is going to handle it on their own, and they're all going to do it differently because (wait for it) no system works best for every group of people.

For game design purposes, it's worthwhile to implement a system whereby groups of strangers who will never meet again can distribute loot reasonably fairly. The need/greed/pass system handles that fine. Though it'll probably need some heavier regulation in a game where class-changing is possible.. that's beside the point.

I guess I don't object to your premise so much as I object to your assertion that this represents laziness on someone's part. Remembering that time spent on one thing means that developer isn't doing something else during that time period, it makes the most sense to develop systems that will be used by more people rather than systems that will be used by a handful of people per server TOPS who are going to be perfectly willing to handle it themselves anyway.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#32 May 04 2013 at 10:34 PM Rating: Default
***
2,202 posts
Catwho wrote:
I can't talk about my experiences with Need/Greed/Pass since dungeons aren't out of NDA yet. Once it's lifted you can hear my thoughts on how THAT experience went...


You basically just said you where in beta..... Oh wint how come you do not nuke stuff like this... HMMMM!!! ?
____________________________
MUTED
#33 May 04 2013 at 10:37 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,202 posts
BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Catwho wrote:
That didn't work in XI, where people had more than one job leveled. It won't work in XIV, where people will also have more than one job leveled.

If someone comes on a conjurer every raid because the group needs a healer, but their preferred class is lancer, it's not fair to tell them they can't lot on lancer stuff. Just because the group never sees them on lancer doesn't mean they don't have it leveled up and prefer to play it.

In tight knit, smaller groups where everyone knows everyone else's jobs and preferences, it's not a big deal. My Meebles group in FFXI doesn't bother with points. If something BRD THF or BLM drops, they'll probably let me lot on it. (Bard stuff is all mine. MINE! Smiley: nod) If something drops for a SAM, it'll go to the two folks who play SAM. Etc.

That kind of personal courtesy falls apart in large HNM shells, where there's sometimes fifty to a hundred people who are in the shell, even if only a quarter to a third can make it to any given raid. I'd say any group larger than 20 needs to have a points system in place, or else it's just asking for drama.


There wont be HNM in ARR, atleast not like in XI, if is understood that X person comes as a healer, because we need it, but his main class is lancer, then he can roll for lancer gear, just as he would be able to use his DKP for lancer gear, there is no excuse to not use Need/Greed/Pass other than greedy need to control loot distribution.


Would you look at that, Ostia and I agreeing on something. Oh God, the sky is falling!! Smiley: eek


Oh i have no problem agreeing with stuff that makes sense, as funny as it might sound, i am not a troll, do i get a giggle here and there from a sarcastic comment ? Yes sure i do, but the only difference we have had is about dailies which well you have your opinion, and i have mine.
____________________________
MUTED
#34 May 04 2013 at 10:40 PM Rating: Excellent
****
6,898 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Uh, bullsh*t. I'm happy to disagree with you, but you'd have to actually present a counter-argument first. Personally, I'm not only totally serious, but 100% confident in my assertion.


Your assertion was that game designers are lazy when they don't pre-program a method by which the game keeps track of data that's used only for administrative purposes for a tiny fraction of guilds? Did I get that right?

That's not laziness, that's project management. While a system like that might, in some edge cases, be helpful to have built-in; everyone who wants it is going to handle it on their own, and they're all going to do it differently because (wait for it) no system works best for every group of people.

For game design purposes, it's worthwhile to implement a system whereby groups of strangers who will never meet again can distribute loot reasonably fairly. The need/greed/pass system handles that fine. Though it'll probably need some heavier regulation in a game where class-changing is possible.. that's beside the point.

I guess I don't object to your premise so much as I object to your assertion that this represents laziness on someone's part. Remembering that time spent on one thing means that developer isn't doing something else during that time period, it makes the most sense to develop systems that will be used by more people rather than systems that will be used by a handful of people per server TOPS who are going to be perfectly willing to handle it themselves anyway.


Absolutely. Why should game designers build a system into their games to control how guilds distribute their loot? I thought that was the entire point of making/joining a guild... so that you could decide the best way in which to distribute loot or what works best for you in terms of gaining loot. Having a game decide that for you seems like something completely outside of their scope as designers. To me, a game should give you options as to how to best decide on a loot distribution structure, such as a need/greed/pass system, but they should not incorporate anything to decide ipso-facto how that loot is actually passed out. That is up to the guild, and should ALWAYS be up to the guild.

I might not agree with a DKP system, but that doesn't mean it isn't viable. It really depends on the group involved, and if the game takes that away from the players by deciding for them, that's absolutely not something I would want.

Ostia wrote:
Oh i have no problem agreeing with stuff that makes sense, as funny as it might sound, i am not a troll, do i get a giggle here and there from a sarcastic comment ? Yes sure i do, but the only difference we have had is about dailies which well you have your opinion, and i have mine.


I know, and I have absolutey no problems with anything you say. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect it and understand where you are coming from. My only real gripe with you is how you talk in absolutes, like X is exactly the same as Y, and that's really why I call you out on things, because I think we both know that they aren't the same. We certainly aren't in agreement as to how close things pertain to others, but that's to be expected with two people coming from polar opposites. I've never rated you down, and in fact have rated you up on several occasions where I agree with you, because at least you're willing to argue a point you believe in.

Edited, May 5th 2013 12:47am by BartelX
#35 May 05 2013 at 12:13 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Re: is it laziness? You could attribute it to a lack of ingenuity, potentially even resource management, but generally, no, I don't think so. Designing a system isn't that hard--one guy can and often does do that in his spare time if it tickles his fancy. It's the implementation that eats into resources. It's mainly just that it's so much easier to copy the systems in another game, which is why 95% of games do it. To me, that's laziness and nothing else.

Re: is it needed? Well, there's no reason a guild shouldn't be able to choose the reward rules that they like best, and most players do not enjoy the bureaucracy of guild management or the drama that comes with it. So, unless your argument is that you don't like additional options that solve problems, then I don't think there's an argument to be had. Actually, if there's even one fair option for determining loot distribution that is automated by the game, I'm sure the vast majority of players would prefer that their guild just use that rather than convoluting things with a player-instituted system. If nothing else, it makes guild management that much simpler--leaders can focus on running events rather than tracking minutia like attendance and points. Basically it works for better for everyone who doesn't like administrative bureaucracy, and those players can choose a free loot option and impose their own rules if they want to.

So I'll reiterate: it's lazy and in this generation inexcusable that designers have put the feedback loops in the hands of players when that's a good 50% of their job. And some have recognized this, and that gave birth to the merit-based systems that most people dislike because of faulty metrics. But the solution is longitudinal tracking systems which are better integrated into the game and less sloppy--not to give up and copypasta a system because, gosh, doing something different sure is hard. Especially so when you have a multimillion dollar budget and it would definitely yield a favorable ROI.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#36 May 05 2013 at 12:15 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
**
837 posts
Ostia wrote:
Catwho wrote:
I can't talk about my experiences with Need/Greed/Pass since dungeons aren't out of NDA yet. Once it's lifted you can hear my thoughts on how THAT experience went...


You basically just said you where in beta..... Oh wint how come you do not nuke stuff like this... HMMMM!!! ?



You serious? The NDA is partially lifted and we can talk about Gridania so we already know who is in the beta or not.
____________________________
YaY signature!! (i was never good with signatures >_<)

Grim Reaperz (Ultros server)
#37 May 05 2013 at 12:22 AM Rating: Decent
****
6,898 posts
Kachi wrote:
Actually, if there's even one fair option for determining loot distribution that is automated by the game, I'm sure the vast majority of players would prefer that their guild just use that rather than convoluting things with a player-instituted system.


There is. The Need/Greed/Pass system. It completely removes the need for a guild to control drops using something like DKP. If you are there, and you can use it on your current class (or main class), you lot it. If others can lot also, it's left up to game programming, which right there refutes your whole laziness claim. The game has a built-in system of fairly distributing loot. Certainly there will be players that abuse it, but there will always be players like that. And if it's a big deal, there is the whole quartermaster system in games where the party leader can decide the loot. It's not ideal, but if it's with people you don't trust, it's a good alternative. So already, there are a minimum of two systems incorporated for loot distribution. One is automated by the game (random rolls for need/greed gear), and one that allows the players to choose. That to me dispels your whole concept of the lazy designer.

If you'd like to propose a new system, I'd be curious to hear it as I'm certainly open to something that might be better.
#38 May 05 2013 at 12:27 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
**
837 posts
Catwho wrote:
Teravibe wrote:
Please i will never forget when i was in a hardcore raiding guild in wow with a dkp. I just joined so i had like no points and first day i joined i went to the raid. Dropped a healers item that i needed and the other healer didn't. And the Raid leader refused to give it to me and instead took it and sold it for gold because i didn't have enough points. Seriously? How is that ok? No one wanted that item and just because i didn't have enough points yet, he took it and refused to let me take it. Oh the rage i put on them it was my first and last day on that guild. I also got reported as well.


The HNM I just joined stated up front that new members can't lot anything for the first two weeks, but will earn points during that time which can later be used for lotting. That's how most of them actually go.

Did your rules say something similar? If so, then that's how endgame shells roll. They use the gil/gold to buy pop sets or other items that people need with points.

Now, if they didn't tell you up front that you'd have to put in time before getting stuff, then it's kind of scuzzy. But I ran a major endgame linkshell for four years, and I can't tell you how many times we had someone show up for one run, get lucky and win a rare item that no one else needed, and then entirely fail to show up ever again.



While i do understand how it works and in theory should be "fair" and nice. Why should you throw away an item that you do not know when it will drop again just because you don't have points? I guess i don't WANT to accept the way this systems work. A while back i had made a post in a thread about the kinds of guilds/LS are out there. Like casual, casual/raiders , hardcore raiders. I was in a group that did raids every week and we were good at it but we weren't "hardcore". Yes it is lame to have someone show up for one raid and then disappear. But i still don't find it right to destroy a perfectly good item that happened to drop. Another example is my friend i had in WoW a hunter with top set in everything. He was missing 1 item to be complete and that item dropped the second time they raided (remember i got kicked). And he was the only hunter in the party and yet they did not give it to him cause of his points. Or let me put it this way cause i saw that happening as well. What if 3 items for you drop but you run out of points in the second, why should you be doomed not to try and take the other one?

I only find it wrong because sometimes the drop rates for items are insane and you could do something for weeks and weeks and not dropping and then when actually drops you actually have to fight over it with another from your class. So i do not agree with throwing an item away that could take you weeks to drop again (and even then not sure if you are gonna get it).
____________________________
YaY signature!! (i was never good with signatures >_<)

Grim Reaperz (Ultros server)
#39 May 05 2013 at 1:08 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Actually, if there's even one fair option for determining loot distribution that is automated by the game, I'm sure the vast majority of players would prefer that their guild just use that rather than convoluting things with a player-instituted system.


There is. The Need/Greed/Pass system. It completely removes the need for a guild to control drops using something like DKP. If you are there, and you can use it on your current class (or main class), you lot it. If others can lot also, it's left up to game programming, which right there refutes your whole laziness claim. The game has a built-in system of fairly distributing loot. Certainly there will be players that abuse it, but there will always be players like that. And if it's a big deal, there is the whole quartermaster system in games where the party leader can decide the loot. It's not ideal, but if it's with people you don't trust, it's a good alternative. So already, there are a minimum of two systems incorporated for loot distribution. One is automated by the game (random rolls for need/greed gear), and one that allows the players to choose. That to me dispels your whole concept of the lazy designer.

If you'd like to propose a new system, I'd be curious to hear it as I'm certainly open to something that might be better.


The Need/Greed/Pass system relies on randomization and doesn't provide for a merit-based system. You do understand that I'm arguing for more options, right? The opposing argument here is tantamount to saying that the Need/Greed/Pass system didn't need to be developed because players used to be able to lot, and that's all the loot distribution rules you need.

Let's set aside the lazy designer discussion--it's a loaded argument on both ends. The bottom line is that there are many games being designed which evoke a need for a longitudinal merit-based system and there are no tools to effectively automate this process (the closest thus far has been the use of token systems, which have their own drawbacks). And yes, of course there are ways to address this. Fundamentally, even, it's a very simple question: Should the game be able to decide when a player has earned a reward and then provide it to them? And I reiterate: isn't that one of the main things, if not the definitive thing, that games do?

Even simple tools like in-game attendance and points trackers would be an extremely obvious step in the right direction, but there's really no reason that games can't be built to track this progress automatically. And players can still be given plenty of freedom with the application of these tools to decide how many points certain events should be worth, what constitutes attendance, and so forth.

My point is, you are playing on a machine which is specifically made to handle complex data manipulation! Who in their right mind thinks that it can't perform the task of one **** retentive gamer with an abacus and a penchant for making lists? That's a stone age approach to the problem. "No need airplane. Have wheel." We already have technology that tracks when people clock in and out and pays them accordingly, and programmers who can write that code in an afternoon.

You could certainly argue that such an approach might fundamentally encroach on the social experience of the guild, or even absolve the value of public loot to an extent. And I'd be happy to have that conversation with all bias aside. My only objection was to the notion that my point was intentionally asinine, and whether you agree with it or not, I believe my point is well-defended.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#40 May 05 2013 at 1:10 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
@Teravibe: Personally I would have let you take negative points, and if you walked without earning them back, I'd probably make that fact quite public. But I agree with the gist of what you're saying.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#41 May 05 2013 at 8:51 AM Rating: Good
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
Stuff I'd like to be built into the game for administrative purposes:

- A module that logs exactly when someone logs on and logs off the linkshell, then allows this to be exported via an XML file to third party programs. Call this the "time clock" function - you can see who has clocked in, when, where, and when they left.

- The ability to integrate with those third party programs via an API, so someone could call up what the program has in the database and display it in the chat log.

When I ran Dynamis, we used a customized version of EQDKP called FFDKP, developed by Ismarc of Seraph. FFDKP allowed individual players to camp out exactly one item. Items with no one camped went open lot (although they still cost points.) Everything else was called rot drops (and rot drops still cost points.) Some of the competitions for certain items were fierce - the RDM hat from Xarcabard in particular once had like 7 people after it - but people who stuck with the shell for a long time eventually got everything they wanted, and then some. I finished all 20 relic armor sets before we shut down our linkshell for good (when SE changed the Dynamis city runs to their current system.)

The Meebles static that I mentioned up thread? Yeah, last night I walked away with a **** pair of SMN pants, because I'm the only one in the group that plays SMN regularly and the rest of the group knows that. We have no need for any kind of points or lotting system.

Edited, May 5th 2013 11:12am by Catwho
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#42 May 05 2013 at 8:57 AM Rating: Decent
**
383 posts
Catwho wrote:
That didn't work in XI, where people had more than one job leveled. It won't work in XIV, where people will also have more than one job leveled.


I disagree with this. If raiding is going to be progression-based, you can't have people showing up with sub-par gear because they chose to gear the class they decided not to raid with. People are going to have to get really clever with how they establish their loot systems in order for this not to happen. Either boss encounters are going to be serious gear-checks, or SE can kiss a lot of subs good bye when people start crying "EZ MODE".
____________________________
This is my sig; Enjoy.
FFXIV: Tom Carroll - Excalibur
FC: Sitzkireg (www.sitzkrieg.guildwork.com)
#43 May 05 2013 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
****
6,898 posts
Kachi wrote:
The Need/Greed/Pass system relies on randomization and doesn't provide for a merit-based system. You do understand that I'm arguing for more options, right? The opposing argument here is tantamount to saying that the Need/Greed/Pass system didn't need to be developed because players used to be able to lot, and that's all the loot distribution rules you need.

Let's set aside the lazy designer discussion--it's a loaded argument on both ends.


Agreed.

Kachi wrote:
The bottom line is that there are many games being designed which evoke a need for a longitudinal merit-based system and there are no tools to effectively automate this process (the closest thus far has been the use of token systems, which have their own drawbacks). And yes, of course there are ways to address this. Fundamentally, even, it's a very simple question: Should the game be able to decide when a player has earned a reward and then provide it to them? And I reiterate: isn't that one of the main things, if not the definitive thing, that games do?


For an mmo, no, I don't think that's the definitive thing games do. It never really has and I don't think it should be. For offline games, I absolutely agree that loot disctribution and when to give out player rewards is up to the developers, but one of the points of an MMO is the freedom in deciding how to distribute your loot. I don't think the game needs to have a system that actually disperses rewards and keeps track of something like attendance/points. I think that is completely up to the guild, and should be. I understand you don't agree with that, I just think it's something that is a personal preference.

Kachi wrote:
My point is, you are playing on a machine which is specifically made to handle complex data manipulation! Who in their right mind thinks that it can't perform the task of one **** retentive gamer with an abacus and a penchant for making lists? That's a stone age approach to the problem. "No need airplane. Have wheel." We already have technology that tracks when people clock in and out and pays them accordingly, and programmers who can write that code in an afternoon.

You could certainly argue that such an approach might fundamentally encroach on the social experience of the guild, or even absolve the value of public loot to an extent. And I'd be happy to have that conversation with all bias aside. My only objection was to the notion that my point was intentionally asinine, and whether you agree with it or not, I believe my point is well-defended.


And that would be my argument. I don't want a game to decide everything for me. I'd rather have a group of players I trust decide how best to distribute the loot. Because, while it is definitely possible and probably not difficult to code something like what you are talking about, a game engine can't make judgement calls. It can't say something like "Oh, you were available for the event but didn't go, so you get points anyways". Well, maybe it can, but that seems pointless to me when it's just as easily done by the guild itself, and allows far more freedom in the decision-making process. Again, I think it's more a personal opinion than a matter of right or wrong.
#44 May 05 2013 at 9:10 AM Rating: Excellent
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
It's catch 22.

You join a linkshell. You tell them your main is lancer but it's a bit under powered and you need some help gearing it. You also have a decently geared conjurer.

Since your lancer is not fully geared, you come on conjurer, at their request.

Since you're always on conjurer, they never let you lot the lancer stuff.

Not every group is like that, but that's what happens. The people who enjoy playing support and healing roles tend to be in the minority. They'll do it in the hopes of making their preferred class or job better, so they get to play on it eventually.

You could also end up like a friend I have in XI, who refused to level anything but MNK. He was accepted to an endgame group eventually, but wasn't able to participate in most of the boss fights because MNK wasn't always that good against those bosses. He caved and eventually leveled SAM as well.

Personally, I enjoy playing a wide variety of classes and I do my damndest to gear them all up well. This has gotten me a bit of a reputation as a loot *****, but I'd rather take a piece than let it fall to waste. It's also caused a lot of squealing because the only job people would see me on was WHM or BRD or sometimes BLM.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#45 May 05 2013 at 9:18 AM Rating: Good
****
6,898 posts
Catwho wrote:
Since your lancer is not fully geared, you come on conjurer, at their request.

Since you're always on conjurer, they never let you lot the lancer stuff.


And this is exactly why you pick a job that you want to loot on prior to the run. Heck, you can even set something up where you have a priority job lotting system. You set up your top 5, when stuff drops, people with it in slot 1 lot first and so on down the list until it is distributed. It's a fair system, and allows you to play on a different class than what you are lotting for, something that is completely specific to games like XI and XIV where multiple jobs are available on 1 character.
#46 May 05 2013 at 9:38 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
**
837 posts
In wow when they introduced the 2 skill trees thing. When you would join a raid you would need in items of your current class. If an item dropped that you could use/want for your other class you would first see if anyone wanted it for their main and then ask to need for your second class. That worked pretty nicely.
____________________________
YaY signature!! (i was never good with signatures >_<)

Grim Reaperz (Ultros server)
#47 May 05 2013 at 9:50 AM Rating: Excellent
***
3,386 posts
Quote:
Even simple tools like in-game attendance and points trackers would be an extremely obvious step in the right direction, but there's really no reason that games can't be built to track this progress automatically. And players can still be given plenty of freedom with the application of these tools to decide how many points certain events should be worth, what constitutes attendance, and so forth.


I'm having visions of exploding databases here.

So your proposal here is to store data of more or less the following structure?

 
For every player 
    For every instance AND every world event AND every endgame fate AND every custom farming event 
        For every encounter 
            Attended? 
            Available? 
            Main job? 
            Alt Job if Asked? 
            Points Gained? 
            Item Received? 
            Time Spent on Progression? 


Now let's multiply that over a half dozen years of the game's lifespan, maybe a couple expansions, and let's generously say a million players. All of which has to be stored in perpetuity because the game has no business determining what does and does not constitute an event for a particular linkshell.
Smiley: eekSmiley: eekSmiley: eek

Now let's also remember that only a small fraction of the game's entire population will ever care one iota about endgame activities. And only a fraction of THOSE people will ever need something like this. The overwhelming majority of people will never have a use for this system because it will never apply to them.

Let's use some numbers rather than speaking in abstracts here for a second.

WoW tier 13 (Dragon Soul) had roughly 10% of all guilds in the game progressing through it. Keeping in mind that this number only reflects guilds that progressed as a guild and not as an elaborate pick-up-group (PUG). Of those guilds, only about 10% cleared the instance on normal mode (these are your casual raiders). And only about 10% of those cleared it on heroic (these are your more serious raiders). So 1% of guilds .. 1% .. were focused on progression.

That 1% is the group that probably used specialized loot systems above and beyond "roll if you want it." Out of the 10 million people playing WoW at the time, that number probably represents about 1.2 to 1.3 million people. And I think that number is probably pretty generous.

Data integrity requires that this data be tracked for every instance of a character object. This is a massive amount of data to be tracked for only a tiny subset of people to ever use. And that subset of people will not blink even once about tracking it themselves.

****, my guild at the time used EPGP (I was in that 1% of guilds that cleared heroic). Everything was handled with an addon. It required almost no backend work on our part to keep track of loot versus time spent. Points were gained automatically, points were spent automatically, decay was handled automatically. And all without imposing our datasets on the rest of the WoW population.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#48 May 05 2013 at 10:23 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
*
175 posts
Ostia wrote:
Player points are the worst thing that can happen to a guild/LS, they always bring drama, and abuse, the game fixes this issue on itself, with need/greed/pass, if you need it roll for it, and let the RNG gods deal with it, no drama, no cheating, no abuse, you can also add a "Cannot roll for 2 weeks if you are new rule" or a "Can only roll for active job/class" etc etc.


There is only one inherrent problem with using that system though Ostia. While some won't care others will. There is always that one person that no matter how many times they roll or are rolled against roll super high ALWAYS. And people like me who every mmo I've played never ever roll high. (lmao) Yes eventually I'd get the loot I'd need but only after everyone else that needed it beat me. There's nothing more annoying to people than showing up ever night and always walking away empty handed because that one person in the guild wins everything. That ultimately causes just as much drama. If it's a pug yeah sure that's a great system to use. If you are in a guild or otherwise the loot needs to be distributedly evenly. While I personally am not all about loot. I'm also not joining a "raiding" group just to gear others up until I "luck" out with a good roll.
____________________________
Gothos 75 SMN 75 WHM 68 COR 65SAM ~FFXI (Valefor)
80 Warlock - 80 Priest - 80 Shaman WoW (Moon Guard)
#49 May 05 2013 at 11:18 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
970 posts
There is no hundred percent fair system for all players when that system is run by a human generated point/ladder system.
Fair doesn't exist. Fair is how one perceives things to be. Rationality would suggest that a person who dedicates all their effort and misses no opportunity should get the gear first and other players would feel it to be right. If that were the case, there wouldn't be so many iterations of different point systems. I have been the guy who never misses an opportunity to score points while everyone else was here and there in attendance and effort. I received alot of gear before other people, sometimes even getting my drops, moving back down to the bottom of the rights list, then I would move up the ladder one, two, three times overtaking them through utter dedication.
Archmage Callinon wrote:
My issue with that is that in-game loot systems are equivalent to rolling dice for everything that drops regardless of attendance or investment in a particular guild.

While I definitely agree that player-managed loot systems can be kind of arcane and they definitely require a lot more effort on behalf of the guild leadership. That being said, they have the capability of accounting for things the game can't possibly know, like attendance.

I mean, how crappy does it feel when your guild has been working together for years, and you replace someone, and then that guy gets the drop you've been waiting 6 months to see and immediately leaves.

THAT'S what player-managed loot systems prevent.

No, a good in-game loot system would take that into account. You can't prevent anything in life. You can only some what lessen or delay the possibility of something happening. Dictators try and force and find out ultimately. That no matter how much they do, they cannot force happiness or compliance. A majority of people will leave when they reach whatever goals they set out to accomplish. One day, three months, ten years.

Ostia wrote:
Player points are the worst thing that can happen to a guild/LS, they always bring drama, and abuse, the game fixes this issue on itself, with need/greed/pass, if you need it roll for it, and let the RNG gods deal with it, no drama, no cheating, no abuse, you can also add a "Cannot roll for 2 weeks if you are new rule" or a "Can only roll for active job/class" etc etc.

This does not fix things either. If the individual player is given access to need/greed/pass. They have their own perception of what they feel is right even if other members disagree in their own perceptions. This also doesn't take into account attentive play or cooperation. It's like the lotto. The few who are lucky win and the rest spend their hard earned money or time for little return. Need all the time and if your lucky, watch yourself get booted from the guild or listen to discontent while other members leave.

Viertel wrote:
This is why points system, when run by a guild leadership that isn't corrupt, promotes a non-drama environment. The points are cold, harsh, and factual and emotions or biaism doesn't come into play. I agree completely.

Relying on free lots, "let's pass loot freely", and other methods aren't methodical and have no rhyme or reasoning. It *always* culminates into a massive issue that drives people apart and usually away from the linkshell/guild. They don't work effectively over a long period of time, they never have, and never will.

Both systems can be corrupted by leadership, but only a point system ran effectively curtails any complaints of favoritism.

Personally I've been a fan of EPGP because it rewards effort as well as attendance: if you don't show up for a while you fall down the "list" due to natural point decay. The decay is usually percentage based so if everyone shows up all the time the ratio/loot eligibility doesn't change, only those not attending events suffer (and rightfully so).

Any leadership regardless if it's a democracy or run by a dictator has a hint of corruption, some form of drama, or biaism. Look no further than the US government, and they been working at this for hundreds of years! Emotions are always present in humans whether they are apparent or under the surface.

People drive people apart. The only methodical solution that neither brings nor pushes people apart. Is one where opinion or perception is not applicable. An in-game distribution model that is global, takes attendance and completion of events into account, and doesn't rely on rolls to accomplish that.

If a member never misses, is on time, and completes every event. Should his or her points decay?
No matter what it is answered here, I guarantee you that someone in that guild disagrees. In an ideal world everyone would be 100% dedicated and present. But this isn't how it works. Any player who can only commit 99% or less loses. Regardless if real life matters are the only thing that prevent them from doing this.

TLDR: In any player driven system for rewarding loot. The players with less time get punished. In any in-game system for rewarding loot using RNG. All but the lucky players get punished.
#50 May 05 2013 at 11:19 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,202 posts
Valeforelacky wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Player points are the worst thing that can happen to a guild/LS, they always bring drama, and abuse, the game fixes this issue on itself, with need/greed/pass, if you need it roll for it, and let the RNG gods deal with it, no drama, no cheating, no abuse, you can also add a "Cannot roll for 2 weeks if you are new rule" or a "Can only roll for active job/class" etc etc.


There is only one inherrent problem with using that system though Ostia. While some won't care others will. There is always that one person that no matter how many times they roll or are rolled against roll super high ALWAYS. And people like me who every mmo I've played never ever roll high. (lmao) Yes eventually I'd get the loot I'd need but only after everyone else that needed it beat me. There's nothing more annoying to people than showing up ever night and always walking away empty handed because that one person in the guild wins everything. That ultimately causes just as much drama. If it's a pug yeah sure that's a great system to use. If you are in a guild or otherwise the loot needs to be distributedly evenly. While I personally am not all about loot. I'm also not joining a "raiding" group just to gear others up until I "luck" out with a good roll.


Considering that all gear is going to drop from not one raid (My guess is that they will be divided between crystal tower and laberynth) you can set a 2 items cap per player, per raid event, once the player who always rolls high, gets his 2 items per event, everybody else gets a shot, also considering that there are no longer 40+ player raids, and it will be 12-14-16 player raids, there is really no need to have 4 archers, 4 lancers, 4 warriors etc etc, which brings down the competition for gear.

Need/greed/pass works, better than the other systems, the other systems are there to be abused and cheated, NGP is cold hard numbers, you win or you lose based on your luck, how it should be.
____________________________
MUTED
#51 May 05 2013 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
@Bartel: I agree! It should be about preference. Right now the people who prefer to have the game do the heavy lifting do not have an effective, extensible option to suit their preference.

Also, I think you're confusing my point about what game designers do fundamentally with what has been practiced in this specific genre historically--we create feedback loops. That is what we do. This is just some bizarre status quo where designers have resolved not to design feedback systems because we're still coming from a background of MMOs that wanted to allow players to do things "realistically." We've subverted that mentality in almost every other system, literally.

One of the main reasons people don't do endgame content is a lack of leadership. Leaders and managers are a finite resource--tools that make being a leader/manager easier increase access to endgame content. Or arguably, this demonstrates that player-ran loot systems ultimately deter players from engaging in endgame content. Not a strong point in favor of player-based systems.

Look at GW2--they just decided to say ********** it," and abandon the idea of loot pools altogether--every player gets their own pool. And while criticisms of the approach apply, people are largely fine with that decision. Granted that was one of the laziest approaches to loot distribution design that I could ever conceive of, but there's nothing inherently wrong with the decision.

@Callinon: That would be a problem if you used that approach--so you either don't use that approach, or you devise a solution to that approach. I'm not talking about black magic here--it's programming. It's easy to toggle on/off features, for example. Honestly, the most infuriating thing for me is when other game designers just come up with one reason after another why they can't do something when their job is to design systems--there are problems at every turn, with every solution and every objective. Your JOB is to SOLVE them. You do it all the time--"Oh, this doesn't work." Well, it actually does if you do this and this. Or you can do this and that. There are always hundreds if not thousands if not millions of potential solutions to any given systems problem. If you can't deal with that, you can't design systems.

Sorry, but you unknowingly stumbled over one of my pet peeves: people who are constantly noting that there's a potential obstacle and giving up on the idea right away. Those people can't be game designers. They can steal game designs, but they can't actually create the systems that move the practice forward, because they're not problem solvers--they're problem identifiers who quit way too easily.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
« Previous 1 2
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 90 All times are in CDT
Callinon, Anonymous Guests (89)