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SE should keep the beta forum open... forever! Follow

#1 May 05 2013 at 4:25 PM Rating: Default
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I'm serious.

No really.

Step over to the regular Lodestone forum and you'll see it for yourself. Or rather you won't see it. There's no more hate threads saying Casuals/jumpers/powerlevelers/JP-only/Warriors/fluffy bunnies are destroying FFXIV. There's no more pull-down-your-pants-and-measure-your-epeen-so-SE-must-love-you-more. There's no more threads trying to figure out whether Legacy players are going to be unfairly oppressed or worse not recognized as the saviors of FFXIV by the newcomers and how should they strike preemptively to halt the menace?

Instead, it's actually rather blissful. Artists are posting fan art. There's music. There's jokes and above all... it looks like fun.

All the Legacy players have gone to wargle-bargle where it "matters" on the beta Forums.

So I implore SE. Please. Let them keep their own forum where they can "matter" forever and let the general forums be a sunny place as it was meant to be.

Thank you.

PS I don't have anything against Legacy players in general. Some of my best friends are Legacy players. Many just took it for the deal and I respect that. I just don't like the kind that make a big deal of it and worse, spew hate as though being Legacy gives them the right. That is all.


Edited, May 5th 2013 7:33pm by Xoie
#2 May 05 2013 at 5:08 PM Rating: Decent
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implore.
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#3 May 05 2013 at 5:44 PM Rating: Good
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Sounds an awful lot like segregation to me. I agree that the hate on the Lodestone got to be ridiculous at times. But eventually they're going to come back, especially once the NDA is lifted.
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#4 May 05 2013 at 6:35 PM Rating: Default
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I'm not saying they can't post on the Lodestone. I'm saying I love how peaceful and respectful it's been since the arguing has stopped. I wouldn't mind a continuation of a secret forum where they have SE's ear and they can argue till they're blue in the face if it means the general forum is about fan appreciation and artistry. Save the ugliness for behind the scenes and keep the front lawn clean and welcoming.


The Lodestone needs an Asylum.
#5 May 05 2013 at 6:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm sure Lodestone is very heavily moderated and you normally don't see those post because they nuke them before other people can see it. Not sure how the closed beta forumns are going but im sure they are the same way.
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#6 May 05 2013 at 6:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think that the forums should be all happiness and sunshine and rainbows. What's the point of having forums if that's all there is? However, I understand what you're saying and agree that seeing nothing but flame threads full of people comparing e-peens is pretty pointless. But even if it's pointless, it's a public forum. That's kind of the whole point of them. People can ***** and moan about what they want to, or stroke their ego, or talk about whatever they want really. If you don't like a thread, it's incredibly easy to just hit the back button on your browser and move on to greener pastures. Without some of those posters, there wouldn't even be dialogue on the forums... which would make them completely pointless.

It would be like asking the moderators here to put Ostia, Killua, etc into their own forum because they don't fit the mold of being positive about the game. We might not agree with them, but they still have a valid point of view that they should be free to discuss if they want to without prejudice or segregation.
#7 May 05 2013 at 8:21 PM Rating: Excellent
SillyHawk wrote:
I'm sure Lodestone is very heavily moderated and you normally don't see those post because they nuke them before other people can see it. Not sure how the closed beta forumns are going but im sure they are the same way.


Exactly this, don't know how many threads I've read only to have them disappear in no time. Overall though, if the criticism is well thought out, it typically stays around. I think they just want to get rid of general *** hattery.
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#8 May 05 2013 at 8:26 PM Rating: Excellent
What's funny is that all the trolls are gone from the Lodestone forum, too.

I wonder where all of the trolls went...
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#9 May 05 2013 at 8:54 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
What's funny is that all the trolls are gone from the Lodestone forum, too.

I wonder where all of the trolls went...


They are hiding until the game is back under the microscope.
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#10 May 05 2013 at 9:54 PM Rating: Good
Couple of em were around here for awhile...
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#11 May 06 2013 at 1:00 AM Rating: Default
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I've noticed a couple of the regular moaners have moved over to the FFXI Lodestone forums.
#12 May 06 2013 at 3:31 AM Rating: Decent
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All forums are gonna have whiners, complainers, and overall unhappy/angry people, it's something you have to deal with, if you're gonna browse forums. Once the NDA lifts, all of those people will be back regardless.

Even this forum, which tends to have the better members of the community, has negative nancies, no forum is clean of them.
#13 May 06 2013 at 4:19 AM Rating: Good
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People are acting like those who aren't happy are the only ones with a detrimental effect on the forums, but honestly I think whiteknights/fanboys are just as bad, if not worse because they seem to think they are any better.

Generally I think people just need to learn to get their point across without sounding like an ******* while doing it and if they fail moderators need to be quick to handle it.
#14 May 06 2013 at 8:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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The point is to provide useful feedback to the developers. Whining incessantly and constant doomsaying are just as useless as rampant whiteknighting and pretending everything is puppies and candy when it comes to providing feedback.

Nothing improves absent criticism. There'd be no reason for it to.

I'd say that the lack of it on the lodestone forums probably has more to do with not having a game to criticize right now. Wait until the NDA lifts or phase 4 starts and it'll start rolling in.
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#15 May 06 2013 at 11:17 AM Rating: Default
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Xoie wrote:
I'm serious.

No really.

All the Legacy players have gone to wargle-bargle where it "matters" on the beta Forums.

PS I don't have anything against Legacy players in general. Some of my best friends are Legacy players. Many just took it for the deal and I respect that. I just don't like the kind that make a big deal of it and worse, spew hate as though being Legacy gives them the right. That is all.


Smiley: lol

Anyway, there are more anti-Legacy players than pro-Legacy. People complaining about not being Legacy (over and over), and Legacy and non Legacy telling them to stop whining, is not the same as oppression or epeen measuring. The main forums are so full of joy, that you felt the need to make a hate thread? Smiley: confused A midst all the good feelings you still held resentment?

The most amazing thing I see happening today, are groups of people going out of their way to complain about other people's "privilege." The people who they complain about have no right to retaliate though. (Because they're privileged right?) It's interesting you went from All, to general, to some, ending with the particular 'kind' you don't like. Sounded remarkably close to, "Man I'm sure glad all the <insert race here> left. I don't have anything against <insert race here>, Some of my best friends are <insert race here>. (proving I'm obviously not prejudiced) I just don't like the kinds of <insert race here> that behave in <insert behavior that I don't like>" Smiley: rolleyes

This entire thing started with the countless threads concerning people who felt they should have had more than the year SE offered to qualified. Legacy players didn't start threads laughing at non legacy players. At some point people like to start rewriting history. Obviously not all Legacy members are rude, or non Legacy jealous whiners, but just as you take the behavior of a few and extrapolate it to all, Legacy started seeing all non Legacies as annoying whiners. Naturally, since you have nothing Legacy players want, it puts them at an advantage. They call you entitled for wanting what you didn't earn, and now you call them entitled because they have more, and believe you shouldn't receive what they earned. Is any of this sounding familiar?

You just created a hate thread concerning Legacy players. Does that make sense to you? It's OK to feel jealously/hate,(and I may be wrong, it's just how I'm interpreting it) just don't make a post about it.(Since there are already threads for it) All that's going to accomplish is exactly what you claim you don't like. Antagonizing people and expecting them not to react is a bit strange to me. If the main forums are fun, then enjoy it.

Edited, May 6th 2013 1:18pm by GDLYL
#16 May 06 2013 at 1:46 PM Rating: Decent
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GDLYL wrote:
Smiley: lol

Anyway, there are more anti-Legacy players than pro-Legacy. People complaining about not being Legacy (over and over), and Legacy and non Legacy telling them to stop whining, is not the same as oppression or epeen measuring. The main forums are so full of joy, that you felt the need to make a hate thread? Smiley: confused A midst all the good feelings you still held resentment?

The most amazing thing I see happening today, are groups of people going out of their way to complain about other people's "privilege." The people who they complain about have no right to retaliate though. (Because they're privileged right?) It's interesting you went from All, to general, to some, ending with the particular 'kind' you don't like. Sounded remarkably close to, "Man I'm sure glad all the <insert race here> left. I don't have anything against <insert race here>, Some of my best friends are <insert race here>. (proving I'm obviously not prejudiced) I just don't like the kinds of <insert race here> that behave in <insert behavior that I don't like>" Smiley: rolleyes

This entire thing started with the countless threads concerning people who felt they should have had more than the year SE offered to qualified. Legacy players didn't start threads laughing at non legacy players. At some point people like to start rewriting history. Obviously not all Legacy members are rude, or non Legacy jealous whiners, but just as you take the behavior of a few and extrapolate it to all, Legacy started seeing all non Legacies as annoying whiners. Naturally, since you have nothing Legacy players want, it puts them at an advantage. They call you entitled for wanting what you didn't earn, and now you call them entitled because they have more, and believe you shouldn't receive what they earned. Is any of this sounding familiar?

You just created a hate thread concerning Legacy players. Does that make sense to you? It's OK to feel jealously/hate,(and I may be wrong, it's just how I'm interpreting it) just don't make a post about it.(Since there are already threads for it) All that's going to accomplish is exactly what you claim you don't like. Antagonizing people and expecting them not to react is a bit strange to me. If the main forums are fun, then enjoy it.


Most Legacy players are good people. Many, if not most people who show up at this FFXIV Zam forum are Legacy players I get along with; they're respectful, and they're decent. I've been here over a year now, and I wouldn't have stuck around that long if I thought otherwise.

So, not only is it disingenuous for you to create a straw man that suggests I hate all Legacy players, but it's equally foul that you wrap these good people around you like a cloak (with out-of-context manipulation) as though my pointing out the worst of them is a slight against the whole lot.

Legacy is a subscription plan you opted into, not something you were born with. And it's unfortunate that SE saw fit to lump the good, bad, and ugly all together into one "Legacy" category for one grand beta test. But once that beta test started, all the noise from all that argumentative hate filled nonsense that often plagues the Lodestone suddenly vanished. So that spiteful, hateful group of people appear to have collectively jumped into the Legacy player category, joined the beta, signed an NDA, and became a blight on the majority of good people who are also Legacy players who have to sadly put up with them. I feel sorry for them.

But it doesn't discount the fact that those who remain posting on the Lodestone have kept it cleaner than it's ever been in its existence. I think it should stay that way.

I know it's hard for forum-goers who are used to getting into heated arguments, like the karma-destroying one I'm in now, but most people don't care for arguing. It's a turn-off. Especially when they're dealing with their own leisure time, of which FFXIV is meant to be a part. I think people who are arriving into FFXIV for the first time should be met with a friendly entryway into the Lodestone as their first introduction, without it littered with the usual dystopic threads.

So why not preserve a clean, friendly general forum, and put the rest of the arguing in it's own forum, just like it is now? Is anyone bothered by this? Why wouldn't a special forum be just the place for all the chop-busting and attention-seeking you could stand apart from a general non-debate thread? Forums in general do this sort of categorizing all the time.

Edited, May 6th 2013 3:58pm by Xoie
#17 May 06 2013 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
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Nobody cares about lodestone because they are all in beta.... Which is relevant unlike lodestone Smiley: lol
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#18 May 06 2013 at 4:10 PM Rating: Good
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Yes, strawman when you clearly stated, ALL legacy have gone there. I write clearly, so there is little to twist. You clearly had feelings about it and shared.

Xoie wrote:

All the Legacy players have gone to wargle-bargle where it "matters" on the beta Forums.

So I implore SE. Please. Let them keep their own forum where they can "matter" forever and let the general forums be a sunny place as it was meant to be.

Thank you.

PS I don't have anything against Legacy players in general. Some of my best friends are Legacy players. Many just took it for the deal and I respect that. I just don't like the kind that make a big deal of it and worse, spew hate as though being Legacy gives them the right. That is all.


Them who? The all? The ones that are like your friends? Conversations against a particular group never end well. I suppose I was too subtle. Prejudiced people always have to assert that they're not prejudiced and they have friends of the group they're speaking out against. Am I being dishonest now?

Look, if you truly believed that most Legacy players are good people, then you wouldn't have made a generalized post. You also wouldn't have had to put a PS. You put yourself out there. I'm just calling out your BS. Guess what? I'm human too, I understand your prejudice. I just don't engage it, because I know better. You can pretend that you meant whatever. Like someone else said, it sounds like segregation. You want all the "good" people (the ones YOU approve) over here, and those "bad" ones over there. Personally, when something I don't like happens to be the minority, I love it. If 80% of people do something I enjoy, I have fun with the 80%, I don't dwell on the 20% that do things I don't agree with. Yes, people do tend to hold on to negative things, and give them more attention than needed. I'm suggesting that you don't make negative posts about a particular group, and act surprised you don't get a "circle jerk" response. We at ZAM want to make Legacy players feel welcome too. Smiley: tongue Did you make this thread in the main forums as well?

Xoie wrote:

I know it's hard for forum-goers who are used to getting into heated arguments, like the karma-destroying one I'm in now, but most people don't care for arguing. It's a turn-off. Especially when they're dealing with their own leisure time, of which FFXIV is meant to be a part. I think people who are arriving into FFXIV for the first time should be met with a friendly entryway into the Lodestone as their first introduction, without it littered with the usual dystopic threads.


Yes, so It's false for me to assume you're insulting the ZAM forums right? You're just full of generalizations huh? I'm taking you out of context huh? I've had several good debates with people, and gained quite a few ideas. I usually don't opt for "circle jerk" forums where we all agree and no one offends. Even though we disagree, I respect many of the people in the FFXIV section. The difference is, I don't go starting threads, saying how I don't like people who constantly agree and they should just go away for good.

The main forums is a great community of people, and common sense tells me that 7000 views on a thread, and 300 replies means that there maybe 6700 people who haven't shared their opinion, so I cant lump 25 people who happen to be rude as, "OMG you're making our ENTIRE community look bad, go away."

I'm writing this as a Legacy player that's fed up with all this anti-Legacy bull sh*t. You already admitted that most are good people. Isn't that good enough? I have never gone out of my way to state that I'm better than someone just because I happened to pay a 90 day sub. That to me, is idiotic. Yet I have to sit by while people like you constantly start threads against something I'm a part of, simply because a minority happen to do something you don't like. Most of the Legacy hate started as a result of people who were envious. YOU are making non-Legacy look bad, so I think you should find an anti-Legacy forum where you can whine and gripe. Wow, typing that was embarrassing.

P.s.
There was a thread already created in the main months ago, when the Beta first started, that stated that the threads have improved.

Edited, May 6th 2013 6:12pm by GDLYL
#19 May 06 2013 at 8:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Generally I think people just need to learn to get their point across without sounding like an @#%^ while doing it and if they fail moderators need to be quick to handle it.


I don't agree with this. Mods should be there when things get way out of hand, not when people are just arguing about stuff. That kind of situation is what the rate up/down buttons are for. I'd much rather have it like in here, where the mods tend to stay out of it most of the time and only get involved when stuff really gets out of control. Even then, usually a warning is given. That's what I like because it allows the forums to still have that feeling like you can truly express your opinion without the threat of a mod nuking your post if it sounds smug or arrogant.
#20 May 07 2013 at 3:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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GDLYL wrote:
Them who? The all? The ones that are like your friends? Conversations against a particular group never end well. I suppose I was too subtle. Prejudiced people always have to assert that they're not prejudiced and they have friends of the group they're speaking out against. Am I being dishonest now?

Look, if you truly believed that most Legacy players are good people, then you wouldn't have made a generalized post. You also wouldn't have had to put a PS. You put yourself out there. I'm just calling out your BS. Guess what? I'm human too, I understand your prejudice. I just don't engage it, because I know better. You can pretend that you meant whatever. Like someone else said, it sounds like segregation. You want all the "good" people (the ones YOU approve) over here, and those "bad" ones over there. Personally, when something I don't like happens to be the minority, I love it. If 80% of people do something I enjoy, I have fun with the 80%, I don't dwell on the 20% that do things I don't agree with. Yes, people do tend to hold on to negative things, and give them more attention than needed. I'm suggesting that you don't make negative posts about a particular group, and act surprised you don't get a "circle jerk" response. We at ZAM want to make Legacy players feel welcome too. Smiley: tongue Did you make this thread in the main forums as well?

Yes, so It's false for me to assume you're insulting the ZAM forums right? You're just full of generalizations huh? I'm taking you out of context huh? I've had several good debates with people, and gained quite a few ideas. I usually don't opt for "circle jerk" forums where we all agree and no one offends. Even though we disagree, I respect many of the people in the FFXIV section. The difference is, I don't go starting threads, saying how I don't like people who constantly agree and they should just go away for good.

The main forums is a great community of people, and common sense tells me that 7000 views on a thread, and 300 replies means that there maybe 6700 people who haven't shared their opinion, so I cant lump 25 people who happen to be rude as, "OMG you're making our ENTIRE community look bad, go away."

I'm writing this as a Legacy player that's fed up with all this anti-Legacy bull sh*t. You already admitted that most are good people. Isn't that good enough? I have never gone out of my way to state that I'm better than someone just because I happened to pay a 90 day sub. That to me, is idiotic. Yet I have to sit by while people like you constantly start threads against something I'm a part of, simply because a minority happen to do something you don't like. Most of the Legacy hate started as a result of people who were envious. YOU are making non-Legacy look bad, so I think you should find an anti-Legacy forum where you can whine and gripe. Wow, typing that was embarrassing.


You are right about me. I've been prejudiced. I've unfairly cast an entire group of people, Legacy players, as all being bad based on the actions of a few. I've said unkind words and generalizations that I can never take back. I can only hope this sincere apology will someday dampen the hateful speech I've written in this thread, though I'm sure I'll never deserve forgiveness.

As I've read your post, GDLYL, I've discovered that I should be ashamed of myself for my behavior. Your words are completely accurate. I didn't once consider that Legacy players were really just like me: People who enjoyed FFXIV with equal passion and enthusiasm that I have, and maybe even better. But I see the error of my ways, now.

Thanks for setting me straight, my friend.
#21 May 07 2013 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
GDLYL wrote:
Them who? The all? The ones that are like your friends? Conversations against a particular group never end well. I suppose I was too subtle. Prejudiced people always have to assert that they're not prejudiced and they have friends of the group they're speaking out against. Am I being dishonest now?

Look, if you truly believed that most Legacy players are good people, then you wouldn't have made a generalized post. You also wouldn't have had to put a PS. You put yourself out there. I'm just calling out your BS. Guess what? I'm human too, I understand your prejudice. I just don't engage it, because I know better. You can pretend that you meant whatever. Like someone else said, it sounds like segregation. You want all the "good" people (the ones YOU approve) over here, and those "bad" ones over there. Personally, when something I don't like happens to be the minority, I love it. If 80% of people do something I enjoy, I have fun with the 80%, I don't dwell on the 20% that do things I don't agree with. Yes, people do tend to hold on to negative things, and give them more attention than needed. I'm suggesting that you don't make negative posts about a particular group, and act surprised you don't get a "circle jerk" response. We at ZAM want to make Legacy players feel welcome too. Smiley: tongue Did you make this thread in the main forums as well?

Yes, so It's false for me to assume you're insulting the ZAM forums right? You're just full of generalizations huh? I'm taking you out of context huh? I've had several good debates with people, and gained quite a few ideas. I usually don't opt for "circle jerk" forums where we all agree and no one offends. Even though we disagree, I respect many of the people in the FFXIV section. The difference is, I don't go starting threads, saying how I don't like people who constantly agree and they should just go away for good.

The main forums is a great community of people, and common sense tells me that 7000 views on a thread, and 300 replies means that there maybe 6700 people who haven't shared their opinion, so I cant lump 25 people who happen to be rude as, "OMG you're making our ENTIRE community look bad, go away."

I'm writing this as a Legacy player that's fed up with all this anti-Legacy bull sh*t. You already admitted that most are good people. Isn't that good enough? I have never gone out of my way to state that I'm better than someone just because I happened to pay a 90 day sub. That to me, is idiotic. Yet I have to sit by while people like you constantly start threads against something I'm a part of, simply because a minority happen to do something you don't like. Most of the Legacy hate started as a result of people who were envious. YOU are making non-Legacy look bad, so I think you should find an anti-Legacy forum where you can whine and gripe. Wow, typing that was embarrassing.


You are right about me. I've been prejudiced. I've unfairly cast an entire group of people, Legacy players, as all being bad based on the actions of a few. I've said unkind words and generalizations that I can never take back. I can only hope this sincere apology will someday dampen the hateful speech I've written in this thread, though I'm sure I'll never deserve forgiveness.

As I've read your post, GDLYL, I've discovered that I should be ashamed of myself for my behavior. Your words are completely accurate. I didn't once consider that Legacy players were really just like me: People who enjoyed FFXIV with equal passion and enthusiasm that I have, and maybe even better. But I see the error of my ways, now.

Thanks for setting me straight, my friend.


Aww, see now we can alll be friends :D Anyone want to bust out into a musical in celebration!?
#22 May 07 2013 at 9:24 AM Rating: Good
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I can't in good conscience say I was right about you. I don't know you, I just responded to your thread. In fact, I have taken out my frustration on you. I must admit, NDA might have contributed, but I digress. We at ZAM are here for you, Legacy or not. Disagreements happen, water under the bridge. Let us await ARR together, brother! Smiley: yippee

Edited, May 7th 2013 11:28am by GDLYL
#23 May 07 2013 at 10:19 AM Rating: Excellent
The Legacy debate isn't as big as people are making it out to be. Most people simply don't care.

But hey, I love a bit of trolling as much as the next guy, so...

Not all non-Legacy players are whiny little newbies who think they're entitled to everything. I'm even friends with some of them.
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#24 May 07 2013 at 1:05 PM Rating: Decent
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I didn't notice much antagonism on a review of how the forums and game have been going. Recently re-invested in the relaunch of this after some time off. I didn't think those who stuck around the game and lodestone after the majority left were the best and brightest the MMO genre had to offer, and their contribution attempts towards the direction of the game were often infuriating. Only time will tell what kind of reputation legacy players will really have in the larger community or if they will remain the majority. I can't decide if I want to keep my 50's and join their servers, or start over where there aren't any of them.

There'll be bad people everywhere, but I can't tell if they concentrate in legacy any more than out here.

But it used to be a lot worse on the lodestone a year and a half ago. They started permanently banning people.
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#25 May 07 2013 at 9:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Only time will tell what kind of reputation legacy players will really have in the larger community or if they will remain the majority.


There's no difference between Legacy players and everyone else. Within a few months, the newbie servers and Legacy servers will be virtually indistinguishable.

Also, you can't fault people for having fun while playing FFXIV 1.x. Especially once the big patches started rolling in, it was a pretty fun game! I think it's unreasonable to expect people to quit/protest/whatever just for the sake of doing so.

I, for one, didn't pay my monthly fees and continue playing because I wanted a special status (which I'm now thankful to have). I just wanted to keep playing the game I enjoyed, and with people who I enjoyed playing with.
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#26 May 08 2013 at 5:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
There's no difference between Legacy players and everyone else. Within a few months, the newbie servers and Legacy servers will be virtually indistinguishable.


Not true at all.There is a huge difference between Legacy players and everyone else. They didn't quit. What made them stay probably recurs within the group more commonly than outside of it. If this group appeared in a formal research paper, no one would say you could easily apply what you found in their group to any other. It's a huge confounder, and they are probably different than every other group in not so subtle ways.

You just can't hope to apply those differences to individuals. However, without formal research all the group is left with is the reputation they have formed around them as an inkling of their differences. Legacy status could be an independent predictor of addiction. It could be a predictor of maturity though. Then again, maybe fanaticism to the brand. Or industry. Hipsterism. Desire to create. Or a combination of pathologic and positive traits.

I doubt that legacy servers will look and feel like other servers for a long time. I just can't decide if it'll look better, worse, or just different. My bet is on just different.
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