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Been away for a while, have a few ?'s about the "new FFXIV"Follow

#52 May 19 2013 at 6:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
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There's a question that should be asked if the ability to skip the leveling entirely is still around... why keep levels at all? I mean, if you don't have to do it to progress your character, why is it there?


Levelling is the first tier of progression. It gives people a chance to slowly incorporate the jobs' abilities into use as opposed to hitting them all at once with abilities. Ideally speaking, everyone would practice before they go into a high risk party or solo scenario. But realistically players will just suit up and flail buttons around more often than not, and when that flailing would likely affect everyone's exerience in the game, levelling is necessary for overall quality of the game.

There's a little entertainment in anticipating a new game-changing ability as well. A warrior just getting rampage in FFXI, for example.

Levelling is not a guarantee that someone will remotely play their job well at the end of it, but I hate to imagine said players if they didn't even *have* to experience the job before diving into it.
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#53 May 19 2013 at 6:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Leveling isn't really necessary, and while it's a standard mechanic for the MMO (to some it's the defining feature), I think most players these days have developed an immunity to its allure. Usually it's not the leveling up they look forward to so much as new gear, abilities, etc.

Personally I don't care much for levels. They're just a way to artificially pace player progression. Authentic pacing is vastly preferable to me, but leveling up can be fine as long as it is in balance with the progression of content (it's usually not). When it's too slow, you get the grind, and when it's too fast, precious content is wasted.
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#54 May 19 2013 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
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For me, I like leveling. Sometimes I like it because it's a mindless thing I can do while watching a movie or listening to a podcast. Sometimes I like learning a new class bit by bit (especially if it's an entirely new role). Some games even have a pretty good story to go with their leveling (SWTOR).

But my point was, if people are just going to afk through the process while someone else does it for them, which I understand was a thing in 1.0, it might as well not be there.
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#55 May 20 2013 at 2:57 AM Rating: Good
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I get most of my enjoyment from the levelling process, I don't always have the time (or the time zone) to get together and do endgame content that often.
#56 May 20 2013 at 6:11 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Personally I don't care much for levels. They're just a way to artificially pace player progression. Authentic pacing is vastly preferable to me, but leveling up can be fine as long as it is in balance with the progression of content (it's usually not). When it's too slow, you get the grind, and when it's too fast, precious content is wasted.


I'm not exactly sure where you get this notion, but in most MMO's I've played that's not the case. Leveling is used for players to advance the storyline, learn their new skill sets, learn how to work in groups, explore new regions of the world, unlock new sets of quests, etc. I don't see how that's artificial (other than that everything in a game is arguably artificial since it isn't real), but especially in games where there is a decent storyline mixed into the leveling process such as lotro or swtor. I quite enjoy the leveling process in most games. It gives me a sense of natural progression of my character. I agree that it needs to be paced properly to avoid the grind or skipping too much content, but I don't consider it to be artificially paced.
#57 May 20 2013 at 6:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Personally I don't care much for levels. They're just a way to artificially pace player progression. Authentic pacing is vastly preferable to me, but leveling up can be fine as long as it is in balance with the progression of content (it's usually not). When it's too slow, you get the grind, and when it's too fast, precious content is wasted.


You sound like me when I got my first journalism job after college.

-"I've got so many ideas how to shake things up in this stuffy newsroom!"

"You're going to be writing police briefs from press releases"

-"Great! And I have just the perfect NEW direction for them---"

"No. You're going to write the facts. We don't like 'new' things."

Edited, May 20th 2013 8:21am by Louiscool
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#58 May 20 2013 at 7:08 AM Rating: Good
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wonder how much they bumped the TNL up to for each lvl... lvling might not be just as quick as peeps have been saying it is anymore...
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#59 May 20 2013 at 8:02 AM Rating: Good
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I plan on focusing on DoL/H so I'm hardly bothered about levels. If the TNL has been increased, that just gives me time to craft and gather more items I can eventually use for money synths while leveling up. The only time I plan on focusing on DoW/M content is when my friends are all on at the same time and they want to level. I'm already the designated crafter out of all of us.
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#60 May 20 2013 at 8:33 AM Rating: Good
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Adzieboy wrote:
I get most of my enjoyment from the levelling process, I don't always have the time (or the time zone) to get together and do endgame content that often.


I concur. The enjoyment I derive from games is most definitely through the leveling process, and all that level progression entails.

In XI leveling was so difficult that it made whatever you received for reaching a certain level a MAJOR prize... i.e. subjob, airships, area access etc etc... Just getting to the new area you could level at was a major point of enjoyment.

Everyone remembers their first jeuno run, their first time in the dunes, etc. It was that very sense of achievement that leveling provided in XI that will be difficult to emulate ever game. Especially given the common sentiment that "levels are unnecessary." There's nothing wrong with feeling like that, I just think we all value different portions of the game
#61 May 20 2013 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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je355804 wrote:
Adzieboy wrote:
I get most of my enjoyment from the levelling process, I don't always have the time (or the time zone) to get together and do endgame content that often.


I concur. The enjoyment I derive from games is most definitely through the leveling process, and all that level progression entails.

In XI leveling was so difficult that it made whatever you received for reaching a certain level a MAJOR prize... i.e. subjob, airships, area access etc etc... Just getting to the new area you could level at was a major point of enjoyment.

Everyone remembers their first jeuno run, their first time in the dunes, etc. It was that very sense of achievement that leveling provided in XI that will be difficult to emulate ever game. Especially given the common sentiment that "levels are unnecessary." There's nothing wrong with feeling like that, I just think we all value different portions of the game


Exactly, I doubt, for example, many people will remember leaving Redridge Mountains to level in Duskwood but leaving the Valkurm Dunes to go to Qufim felt like you'd accomplished something.
#62 May 20 2013 at 8:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
leaving the Valkurm Dunes to go to Qufim felt like you'd accomplished something.


****, I was soloing rdm last night and got all tingly in the pants for leaving that **** hole... I think it's more about the negative memories...

Edited, May 20th 2013 10:56am by Louiscool
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#63 May 20 2013 at 9:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
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leaving the Valkurm Dunes to go to Qufim felt like you'd accomplished something.


****, I was soloing rdm last night and got all tingly in the pants for leaving that **** hole... I think it's more about the negative memories...

Edited, May 20th 2013 10:56am by Louiscool


I knew I should PROBABLY have used an example other than V. Dunes! Perhaps that place is more infamous that it is famous.
#64 May 20 2013 at 9:29 AM Rating: Default
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Adzieboy wrote:
je355804 wrote:
Adzieboy wrote:
I get most of my enjoyment from the levelling process, I don't always have the time (or the time zone) to get together and do endgame content that often.


I concur. The enjoyment I derive from games is most definitely through the leveling process, and all that level progression entails.

In XI leveling was so difficult that it made whatever you received for reaching a certain level a MAJOR prize... i.e. subjob, airships, area access etc etc... Just getting to the new area you could level at was a major point of enjoyment.

Everyone remembers their first jeuno run, their first time in the dunes, etc. It was that very sense of achievement that leveling provided in XI that will be difficult to emulate ever game. Especially given the common sentiment that "levels are unnecessary." There's nothing wrong with feeling like that, I just think we all value different portions of the game


Exactly, I doubt, for example, many people will remember leaving Redridge Mountains to level in Duskwood but leaving the Valkurm Dunes to go to Qufim felt like you'd accomplished something.


I actually remember leaving Duskwood and redridge mountain lol Valkurm dunes ? The place with all the crabs ? yeah i remember it but for all the wrong reasons lol
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#65 May 20 2013 at 9:47 AM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Adzieboy wrote:
je355804 wrote:
Adzieboy wrote:
I get most of my enjoyment from the levelling process, I don't always have the time (or the time zone) to get together and do endgame content that often.


I concur. The enjoyment I derive from games is most definitely through the leveling process, and all that level progression entails.

In XI leveling was so difficult that it made whatever you received for reaching a certain level a MAJOR prize... i.e. subjob, airships, area access etc etc... Just getting to the new area you could level at was a major point of enjoyment.

Everyone remembers their first jeuno run, their first time in the dunes, etc. It was that very sense of achievement that leveling provided in XI that will be difficult to emulate ever game. Especially given the common sentiment that "levels are unnecessary." There's nothing wrong with feeling like that, I just think we all value different portions of the game


Exactly, I doubt, for example, many people will remember leaving Redridge Mountains to level in Duskwood but leaving the Valkurm Dunes to go to Qufim felt like you'd accomplished something.


I actually remember leaving Duskwood and redridge mountain lol Valkurm dunes ? The place with all the crabs ? yeah i remember it but for all the wrong reasons lol


Pretty sure you missed the point... leveling in itself in FFXI was an accomplishment, and reaching new zones definitely invoked a sense of progression and achievement. Yes, I remember going from zone to zone in WoW... but it didn't feel like I had actually earned the right to advance. It just kinda happened. For some people, that's what they want. Personally, I'll take that sense of accomplishment I felt from FFXI.

Really, that was one of my biggest gripes with FFXIV 1.0. You could basically level in one area for the whole game. There was no progression. The starter zones had mobs for level 1-50 basically. It was convenient, but certainly not a unique experience like FFXI. I'm really hoping they've fixed that for ARR.
#66 May 20 2013 at 10:33 AM Rating: Default
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BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Adzieboy wrote:
je355804 wrote:
Adzieboy wrote:
I get most of my enjoyment from the levelling process, I don't always have the time (or the time zone) to get together and do endgame content that often.


I concur. The enjoyment I derive from games is most definitely through the leveling process, and all that level progression entails.

In XI leveling was so difficult that it made whatever you received for reaching a certain level a MAJOR prize... i.e. subjob, airships, area access etc etc... Just getting to the new area you could level at was a major point of enjoyment.

Everyone remembers their first jeuno run, their first time in the dunes, etc. It was that very sense of achievement that leveling provided in XI that will be difficult to emulate ever game. Especially given the common sentiment that "levels are unnecessary." There's nothing wrong with feeling like that, I just think we all value different portions of the game


Exactly, I doubt, for example, many people will remember leaving Redridge Mountains to level in Duskwood but leaving the Valkurm Dunes to go to Qufim felt like you'd accomplished something.


I actually remember leaving Duskwood and redridge mountain lol Valkurm dunes ? The place with all the crabs ? yeah i remember it but for all the wrong reasons lol


Pretty sure you missed the point... leveling in itself in FFXI was an accomplishment, and reaching new zones definitely invoked a sense of progression and achievement. Yes, I remember going from zone to zone in WoW... but it didn't feel like I had actually earned the right to advance. It just kinda happened. For some people, that's what they want. Personally, I'll take that sense of accomplishment I felt from FFXI.

Really, that was one of my biggest gripes with FFXIV 1.0. You could basically level in one area for the whole game. There was no progression. The starter zones had mobs for level 1-50 basically. It was convenient, but certainly not a unique experience like FFXI. I'm really hoping they've fixed that for ARR.


And here we go again with stalker BartelX! Not only did i not miss the point, since the point was a subjective one, where supposedly XI was more memorable, because of "Party dynamics" and "Sense of accomplishments" which btw are totally subjective and not absolute, i never said they where wrong, so i do not see the need for you to jump in, and spew stupidity, because if you atleast had a point, then Great! Awesome!

Oh and if you felt that way about wow zones, cool, awesome, we disagree, i did not find, sitting in one spot killing crabs for 45hrs, some sort of achievement, or some passing right, that made me worthy of advancing to the next zone, i found more appealing, the fact that i could progress the story line in wow at a decent pace etc etc. But hey if you found crab killing fun and some sort of achievement, more power to you.... Now get off my D
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#67 May 20 2013 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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Good grief, why does everything you post have to have so much vitriol? Seriously, you need to just relax and not get so worked up over every little thing someone posts that doesn't agree with you. You liked the WoW leveling experience better. Congratulations. I thought it was shallow and lacked the sense of achievement of FFXI. It's nothing to get your panties in a bunch about.

I get that you're a WoW fanboy. It's cool. I tend to like FFXI better and was simply explaining why I felt the leveling experience was more enjoyable to myself. Hence why I talked about my own experience, and even used the word "Personally". Get over yourself.
#68 May 20 2013 at 11:14 AM Rating: Default
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BartelX wrote:
Good grief, why does everything you post have to have so much vitriol? Seriously, you need to just relax and not get so worked up over every little thing someone posts that doesn't agree with you. You liked the WoW leveling experience better. Congratulations. I thought it was shallow and lacked the sense of achievement of FFXI. It's nothing to get your panties in a bunch about.

I get that you're a WoW fanboy. It's cool. I tend to like FFXI better and was simply explaining why I felt the leveling experience was more enjoyable to myself. Hence why I talked about my own experience, and even used the word "Personally". Get over yourself.


See here is a perfect example of your problem, you put words and get to conclusions, that nobody has stated, what makes you think i am not relaxed ? Please this is a forum, is not serious, i do not take this back and forth's serious at ALL! But i do dislike the fact, that you have a knack for getting involved in conversations that you are no part of, and claim people have stated things, that cannot be found ANYWHERE in the Thread. Also you just made the same point i did, congratulations for not having an opinion off your own, could have saved us both a lot of time, by just not posting.

Also i am not a wow fanboy, i do not play wow, i understand you get your raging hardons from XI, and their toddlers probably, Cool! Awesome! You liked the leveling system more in XI ? Like i said in the previews post (Which really you just copy pasted into yours but anyways) more power to you, but nobody was arguing, somebody said that dunes where more memorable than redridge or duskwood, all i said was "Hey i rememeber those places" That should have been it, there was no need for your useless intervention. Really get over it already.
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#69 May 20 2013 at 11:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Good grief, why does everything you post have to have so much vitriol? Seriously, you need to just relax and not get so worked up over every little thing someone posts that doesn't agree with you. You liked the WoW leveling experience better. Congratulations. I thought it was shallow and lacked the sense of achievement of FFXI. It's nothing to get your panties in a bunch about.

I get that you're a WoW fanboy. It's cool. I tend to like FFXI better and was simply explaining why I felt the leveling experience was more enjoyable to myself. Hence why I talked about my own experience, and even used the word "Personally". Get over yourself.


See here is a perfect example of your problem, you put words and get to conclusions, that nobody has stated, what makes you think i am not relaxed ? Please this is a forum, is not serious, i do not take this back and forth's serious at ALL! But i do dislike the fact, that you have a knack for getting involved in conversations that you are no part of, and claim people have stated things, that cannot be found ANYWHERE in the Thread. Also you just made the same point i did, congratulations for not having an opinion off your own, could have saved us both a lot of time, by just not posting.

Also i am not a wow fanboy, i do not play wow, i understand you get your raging hardons from XI, and their toddlers probably, Cool! Awesome! You liked the leveling system more in XI ? Like i said in the previews post (Which really you just copy pasted into yours but anyways) more power to you, but nobody was arguing, somebody said that dunes where more memorable than redridge or duskwood, all i said was "Hey i rememeber those places" That should have been it, there was no need for your useless intervention. Really get over it already.


See this comes off as angry to me, whether or not you intended it as such.
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#70 May 20 2013 at 11:37 AM Rating: Default
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Wint wrote:
Ostia wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Good grief, why does everything you post have to have so much vitriol? Seriously, you need to just relax and not get so worked up over every little thing someone posts that doesn't agree with you. You liked the WoW leveling experience better. Congratulations. I thought it was shallow and lacked the sense of achievement of FFXI. It's nothing to get your panties in a bunch about.

I get that you're a WoW fanboy. It's cool. I tend to like FFXI better and was simply explaining why I felt the leveling experience was more enjoyable to myself. Hence why I talked about my own experience, and even used the word "Personally". Get over yourself.


See here is a perfect example of your problem, you put words and get to conclusions, that nobody has stated, what makes you think i am not relaxed ? Please this is a forum, is not serious, i do not take this back and forth's serious at ALL! But i do dislike the fact, that you have a knack for getting involved in conversations that you are no part of, and claim people have stated things, that cannot be found ANYWHERE in the Thread. Also you just made the same point i did, congratulations for not having an opinion off your own, could have saved us both a lot of time, by just not posting.

Also i am not a wow fanboy, i do not play wow, i understand you get your raging hardons from XI, and their toddlers probably, Cool! Awesome! You liked the leveling system more in XI ? Like i said in the previews post (Which really you just copy pasted into yours but anyways) more power to you, but nobody was arguing, somebody said that dunes where more memorable than redridge or duskwood, all i said was "Hey i rememeber those places" That should have been it, there was no need for your useless intervention. Really get over it already.


See this comes off as angry to me, whether or not you intended it as such.


Raging Mad!
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#71 May 20 2013 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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Ostia, if you're not mad when you post, you've fooled me. Most of what you write comes off angry, filled with hate, or overtly arrogant for no reason other than you disagree with someone. My initial post had a half line referencing you, because I felt you missed the point, to which you gave a huge two paragraph tirade about my stupidity and lack of point.

My point was that in FFXI, going from one zone to another was often times an experience, requiring a journey, an airship pass, a key, a questline, etc. From my experience in WoW, going from one zone to the next wasn't an experience... you kinda just walked in wherever you wanted and looked for quest hubs. If that is what worked for you in terms of achievement and progression, great.

It doesn't negate the fact that you ignored the FFXI experience that several others were talking about. It had nothing to do with "fighting crabs for 45 hrs". It had to do with that sense of accomplishment many players felt when traveling from one area to the next and fulfilling various objectives to do so. It's not just me. Read the thread. Several others stated the same thing, which you just glossed over.

As far as my posting habits, I post either when I have a similar point of view as others and would like to add to it, or when my opinion differs and I'd like to show my point of view. It's as simple as that. Often, I disagree with you, hence why I respond to your posts. It's a message board, that's what it's made for. It doesn't mean I'm stalking you. Are you that insecure that you have to think I'm stalking you because I respond to your posts? There's a fixed number of active threads here and a fixed number of posters. It's kind of hard not to clash with the same people over and over.

Edited, May 20th 2013 1:42pm by BartelX
#72 May 20 2013 at 12:00 PM Rating: Default
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BartelX wrote:
Ostia, if you're not mad when you post, you've fooled me. Most of what you write comes off angry, filled with hate, or overtly arrogant for no reason other than you disagree with someone. My initial post had a half line referencing you, because I felt you missed the point, to which you gave a huge two paragraph tirade about my stupidity and lack of point.

My point was that in FFXI, going from one zone to another was often times an experience, requiring a journey, an airship pass, a key, a questline, etc. From my experience in WoW, going from one zone to the next wasn't an experience... you kinda just walked in wherever you wanted and looked for quest hubs. If that is what worked for you in terms of achievement and progression, great.

It doesn't negate the fact that you ignored the FFXI experience that several others were talking about. It had nothing to do with "fighting crabs for 45 hrs". It had to do with that sense of accomplishment many players felt when traveling from one area to the next and fulfilling various objectives to do so. It's not just me. Read the thread. Several others stated the same thing, which you just glossed over.

As far as my posting habits, I post either when I have a similar point of view as others and would like to add to it, or when my opinion differs and I'd like to show my point of view. It's as simple as that. Often, I disagree with you, hence why I respond to your posts. It's a message board, that's what it's made for. It doesn't mean I'm stalking you. Are you that insecure that you have to think I'm stalking you because I respond to your posts? There's a fixed number of active threads here and a fixed number of posters. It's kind of hard not to clash with the same people over and over.

Edited, May 20th 2013 1:42pm by BartelX


I know what your point is, was and will be, you liked XI progression and sense of achievement... Great! Awesome! I had those feelings too when i played EQ, sadly i did not have them when i played XI, it was just more of the same to me, i had more fun questing around in darkwood forest, than i did standing around killing crabs, does that mean that, you where unable to have fun doing it ? No, and i never made that argument, so your knock at "You missed the point" was off base, for i never brought those 2 arguments into the conversation, you did... Out of nowhere, now if people found that fun and they had a sense of achievement, great, more power to them, but fact is far more people enjoyed the quest progression of WOW, than that of XI, unless i have been asleep for the past decade, and all this MMOS are really copying XI progression method and not wow... Is XIV a XI clone ? Or a wow clone ? Hmm! Why would a company emulate the progression model of another MMO, that CLEARLY! No people enjoyed more than their own....

Oh and really i have never gotten mad, but i sure have fun, when you guys think i do Smiley: lol
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#73 May 20 2013 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
No, and i never made that argument, so your knock at "You missed the point" was off base, for i never brought those 2 arguments into the conversation, you did...


Actually, you did the second you talked about crabs and "remembering it for the wrong reasons". That right there was you missing the point. It was never about what mobs you killed, it was about the experience of new areas and the adventures to get to them. If you didn't enjoy that experience that's fine, but your post insinuated it was wrong because you didn't like it... which is why I clarified it.

And while yes, elements of FFXIV closely resemble those of WoW, that doesn't mean there can't be that same sense of accomplishment people felt from FFXI. The reason WoW is more successful than any other mmo doesn't lie solely in the quest progression. The innovations it made in terms of dungeon finder, gameplay based around hotbars, customizable UI, a seemingly endless supply of raids and dungeons, and just the relatively slick design they incorporated throughout were some of the many reasons. You can't tell me most people loved WoW because of the repetitious string of fetch quests and quest hubs leading you by the hand through the zones. It was convenient and indeed progressive, that doesn't mean it was engaging or gave a sense of accomplishment for most.

Honestly though, why can't you just post like this more often? It was civil, you conveyed your point, and you didn't have to resort to belittling other people. It was actually refreshing to read.

Edited, May 20th 2013 2:28pm by BartelX
#74 May 20 2013 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Personally I don't care much for levels. They're just a way to artificially pace player progression. Authentic pacing is vastly preferable to me, but leveling up can be fine as long as it is in balance with the progression of content (it's usually not). When it's too slow, you get the grind, and when it's too fast, precious content is wasted.


I'm not exactly sure where you get this notion, but in most MMO's I've played that's not the case. Leveling is used for players to advance the storyline, learn their new skill sets, learn how to work in groups, explore new regions of the world, unlock new sets of quests, etc. I don't see how that's artificial (other than that everything in a game is arguably artificial since it isn't real), but especially in games where there is a decent storyline mixed into the leveling process such as lotro or swtor. I quite enjoy the leveling process in most games. It gives me a sense of natural progression of my character. I agree that it needs to be paced properly to avoid the grind or skipping too much content, but I don't consider it to be artificially paced.


Er, advancing story line, learning new skills, exploring new regions, unlocking new quests... are all player progression. When you tie that to a number and say, "You must reach this number before you may progress this far," that's artificial pacing. Part of the purpose of using a leveling system is to gate your access to that content, artificially. Rather than tying those progression markers solely to key accomplishments, they use XP as a measuring stick for whether you've played the game long enough to advance. i.e., it's not whether you can slay the dragon--it's whether you are level 50 and can slay the dragon.

Like I said, there's nothing inherently wrong with leveling. I just don't care for them personally, mainly due to the over-reliance of them in the genre. Its also frequently used as a crutch for bad design.

Louiscool wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Personally I don't care much for levels. They're just a way to artificially pace player progression. Authentic pacing is vastly preferable to me, but leveling up can be fine as long as it is in balance with the progression of content (it's usually not). When it's too slow, you get the grind, and when it's too fast, precious content is wasted.


You sound like me when I got my first journalism job after college.

-"I've got so many ideas how to shake things up in this stuffy newsroom!"

"You're going to be writing police briefs from press releases"

-"Great! And I have just the perfect NEW direction for them---"

"No. You're going to write the facts. We don't like 'new' things."

Edited, May 20th 2013 8:21am by Louiscool


Fortunately that doesn't happen if you don't have someone watching you from above, waiting to tell you "no." Indie games are practically in the business of shaking things up. But I'm barely even talking about shaking things up. Sandbox fans have been singing that song for years, and in some of the communities I visit, dissatisfaction with leveling borders on the norm.

There are no shortage of fans with "great new ideas." Being able to build efficient systems with the great new ideas is, sadly, a very rare skill that takes a lot of time and practice to develop. Most people struggle to create simple games (like checkers) that are functional. Some can manage to build a game while implementing an original idea, but they have to use the architecture of familiar games to pull it off (i.e., a standard game, with a twist). Few can build entirely original game structures from the ground up--noting that even "entirely original" games still rely on standard game structures at times--in some cases there are literally no new ideas.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#75 May 20 2013 at 1:43 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
No, and i never made that argument, so your knock at "You missed the point" was off base, for i never brought those 2 arguments into the conversation, you did...


Actually, you did the second you talked about crabs and "remembering it for the wrong reasons". That right there was you missing the point. It was never about what mobs you killed, it was about the experience of new areas and the adventures to get to them. If you didn't enjoy that experience that's fine, but your post insinuated it was wrong because you didn't like it... which is why I clarified it.

And while yes, elements of FFXIV closely resemble those of WoW, that doesn't mean there can't be that same sense of accomplishment people felt from FFXI. The reason WoW is more successful than any other mmo doesn't lie solely in the quest progression. The innovations it made in terms of dungeon finder, gameplay based around hotbars, customizable UI, a seemingly endless supply of raids and dungeons, and just the relatively slick design they incorporated throughout were some of the many reasons. You can't tell me most people loved WoW because of the repetitious string of fetch quests and quest hubs leading you by the hand through the zones. It was convenient and indeed progressive, that doesn't mean it was engaging or gave a sense of accomplishment for most.

Honestly though, why can't you just post like this more often? It was civil, you conveyed your point, and you didn't have to resort to belittling other people. It was actually refreshing to read.

Edited, May 20th 2013 2:28pm by BartelX


BartelX seriously, you are trying to hard to find something, where there was nothing, is actually getting sad.... Is no fun Smiley: lol Please if it makes you happy, keep telling yourself i missed the point, but i din't i just did not agree with, it being more fun than duskwood or redrigdge, but if you did find it fun, great, cool, awesome, move on already, you are going in circles trying to make the same argument 50 different ways, is not gonna work, just say you are sorry and move on.
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#76 May 20 2013 at 1:46 PM Rating: Excellent
I think that if the original FFXI came out today, compared with the current MMO standards, people would not "enjoy" it at all.

Those advancement moments were difficult to achieve, and were satisfying. That was then.

If a MMO came out that expected you to put forth those same original time sinks and grinding for advancement, people would go play something else. FFXI now is not what is was then, because demand has changed with time,

Those advancements were certainly treasure moments in my MMO past. Let's leave them there.
#77 May 20 2013 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Er, advancing story line, learning new skills, exploring new regions, unlocking new quests... are all player progression. When you tie that to a number and say, "You must reach this number before you may progress this far," that's artificial pacing. Part of the purpose of using a leveling system is to gate your access to that content, artificially. Rather than tying those progression markers solely to key accomplishments, they use XP as a measuring stick for whether you've played the game long enough to advance. i.e., it's not whether you can slay the dragon--it's whether you are level 50 and can slay the dragon.

Like I said, there's nothing inherently wrong with leveling. I just don't care for them personally, mainly due to the over-reliance of them in the genre. Its also frequently used as a crutch for bad design.


Then by your example, everything in a game really falls into the category of artificial progression. Even progression markers based on key accomplishments require you to be at a certain pre-determined point of the game to achieve, it's really not any different than gating, just masked by a different system. My point was that when things happen in the natural course of leveling (ie exploring new areas, learning new skills, and advancing the story) it makes the progression feel much more natural and not forced.

Ostia wrote:
BartelX seriously, you are trying to hard to find something, where there was nothing, is actually getting sad.... Is no fun Smiley: lol Please if it makes you happy, keep telling yourself i missed the point, but i din't i just did not agree with, it being more fun than duskwood or redrigdge, but if you did find it fun, great, cool, awesome, move on already, you are going in circles trying to make the same argument 50 different ways, is not gonna work, just say you are sorry and move on.


It's funny to me, because you still haven't grasped the point. You're right though... as you said, might as well move on since any discussion with you is just talking in circles.

Edited, May 20th 2013 4:44pm by BartelX
#78 May 20 2013 at 3:03 PM Rating: Excellent
UltKnightGrover wrote:
Quote:

1.) What about the Market Wards? Totally new system?


We don't know yet.

Quote:
2.) Auction House?


We don't know yet.


The more I think about it, the more this has me very worried.

They are not going to re-release a game without an Auction House, are they?!

There is a very large percentage of potential players who will not even touch this game if it does not include a real Auction House. By real, I mean you can buy items from the item serach menu, no walking involved.

Is this game going to go down as "FFXIV: Still-No-Auction-House"?
#79 May 20 2013 at 3:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Then by your example, everything in a game really falls into the category of artificial progression. Even progression markers based on key accomplishments require you to be at a certain pre-determined point of the game to achieve, it's really not any different than gating, just masked by a different system. My point was that when things happen in the natural course of leveling (ie exploring new areas, learning new skills, and advancing the story) it makes the progression feel much more natural and not forced.


Not at all. If the prerequisites to reaching a checkpoint are narratively consistent, then it's not artificial. e.g., if I have to get the key to open the chest to get the sword to kill the dragon, that is genuine pacing. I have not completed the specific task required to trigger the next task. Within the world, that's a real reason why I cannot advance. Artificial progression refers to "unnatural" roadblocks to progression. Things like, "You can't hold that sword yet. You're not level 44."

If I have to be level 12 to get the key, and level 15 to open the chest and level 22 to hold the sword and level 25 to kill the dragon, that's artificial pacing.

You're right that when things happen in the course of leveling, the progression feels less forced. And when you reach the "thing" but have not yet reached the correct level, then the progression feels completely forced, because it is. This is just extending the concept to abandoning the levels altogether and leaving only the natural exploration part. It's an adventure game that is naturally paced by narrative and skill (re: nothing is genuinely "naturally paced" as its all by design, but at least there's no overt attempt to pace the player). Essentially that's all sandbox games are. Some games already apply these principles successfully--it's not some crazy idea I had.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#80 May 20 2013 at 3:15 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Not at all. If the prerequisites to reaching a checkpoint are narratively consistent, then it's not artificial. e.g., if I have to get the key to open the chest to get the sword to kill the dragon, that is genuine pacing. I have not completed the specific task required to trigger the next task. Within the world, that's a real reason why I cannot advance. Artificial progression refers to "unnatural" roadblocks to progression. Things like, "You can't hold that sword yet. You're not level 44."


Maybe I'm just not "getting it", but to me what you described sounds just as artificial as a leveling system. You are just replacing be X level to fight the dragon with get X key, then get X sword, then kill the dragon. It's basically the same linear progression as leveling, you are just taking the number out of it. Maybe I'm just being too analytical about it. Regardless, I completely agree with you that gated content isn't fun when it interrupts the natural flow of the game.
#81 May 20 2013 at 3:19 PM Rating: Good
Letter from the Producer LIVE Part IV
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/58180-Letter-from-the-Producer-LIVE-Part-IV-Q-A-Summary

[0:32:48]
Q: What will the new market system be like? Can you give us some details?

A: Basically we will be totally re-making retainers and the market system from scratch.
We’ll be adding all the Auction House features people are asking for, and make it so that only your own retainer and those you want to appear are displayed in the market wards. It’s a bit difficult to explain. It’d be better to have our players try it for themselves in the Beta, the same time we run server stress tests.

We will also be fixing the system so that you can search for materia-enhanced items, and tell whether or not an item is HQ. In the Beta, we’d like to see how much stress the search feature can take, so please search away.
#82 May 20 2013 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Not at all. If the prerequisites to reaching a checkpoint are narratively consistent, then it's not artificial. e.g., if I have to get the key to open the chest to get the sword to kill the dragon, that is genuine pacing. I have not completed the specific task required to trigger the next task. Within the world, that's a real reason why I cannot advance. Artificial progression refers to "unnatural" roadblocks to progression. Things like, "You can't hold that sword yet. You're not level 44."


Maybe I'm just not "getting it", but to me what you described sounds just as artificial as a leveling system. You are just replacing be X level to fight the dragon with get X key, then get X sword, then kill the dragon. It's basically the same linear progression as leveling, you are just taking the number out of it. Maybe I'm just being too analytical about it. Regardless, I completely agree with you that gated content isn't fun when it interrupts the natural flow of the game.


Design-wise, everything is artificial, so yeah, it is fundamentally not so different. But it's the player experience that matters, and that is quite different, because without the artificial pacing, the player progresses through the content without artificial stoppages. It's difficult to see the appeal if you look at the game as a linear experience, but just to use a familiar example, think of a game that is something akin to a Zelda MMO (the less linear ones), and it becomes easier to understand the difference. You never have to stop and level up Link to get to the boss, but there are several tasks you'll need to complete. Sometimes you can go almost anywhere in the world and tackle the dungeons in whatever order you prefer, where other times you might not have the tool to move forward beyond certain points.

Design-wise, the main difference is that "level" is used as a catch-all checkpoint. Your level single-handedly determines if you can: learn abilities, use equipment, access areas, accept quests, use certain services, etc. It's a very convenient universal pacing tool for the designer, but doesn't always work out for the player. Compare to Zelda, where there are plenty of challenges between you and your goals, but being the right level is never one of them. Now, to dilute the Zelda example a bit, gameplay in Zelda games (at least the classic ones) is nothing very sophisticated--far simpler than in an MMO or even single player RPG.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#83 May 20 2013 at 6:49 PM Rating: Good
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Smashington, I think it's a little too late to try and change the subject. Every time anyone tries, it ends up in failure. Save yourself the trouble.
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#86 May 20 2013 at 8:39 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Not at all. If the prerequisites to reaching a checkpoint are narratively consistent, then it's not artificial. e.g., if I have to get the key to open the chest to get the sword to kill the dragon, that is genuine pacing. I have not completed the specific task required to trigger the next task. Within the world, that's a real reason why I cannot advance. Artificial progression refers to "unnatural" roadblocks to progression. Things like, "You can't hold that sword yet. You're not level 44."


Maybe I'm just not "getting it", but to me what you described sounds just as artificial as a leveling system. You are just replacing be X level to fight the dragon with get X key, then get X sword, then kill the dragon. It's basically the same linear progression as leveling, you are just taking the number out of it. Maybe I'm just being too analytical about it. Regardless, I completely agree with you that gated content isn't fun when it interrupts the natural flow of the game.


Design-wise, everything is artificial, so yeah, it is fundamentally not so different. But it's the player experience that matters, and that is quite different, because without the artificial pacing, the player progresses through the content without artificial stoppages. It's difficult to see the appeal if you look at the game as a linear experience, but just to use a familiar example, think of a game that is something akin to a Zelda MMO (the less linear ones), and it becomes easier to understand the difference. You never have to stop and level up Link to get to the boss, but there are several tasks you'll need to complete. Sometimes you can go almost anywhere in the world and tackle the dungeons in whatever order you prefer, where other times you might not have the tool to move forward beyond certain points.

Design-wise, the main difference is that "level" is used as a catch-all checkpoint. Your level single-handedly determines if you can: learn abilities, use equipment, access areas, accept quests, use certain services, etc. It's a very convenient universal pacing tool for the designer, but doesn't always work out for the player. Compare to Zelda, where there are plenty of challenges between you and your goals, but being the right level is never one of them. Now, to dilute the Zelda example a bit, gameplay in Zelda games (at least the classic ones) is nothing very sophisticated--far simpler than in an MMO or even single player RPG.


I see what you're getting at, and thank you for the Zelda analogy as that put it more in perspective as to what you were talking about. I was still thinking of it from a purely mmo standpoint.


Edited, May 20th 2013 10:40pm by BartelX
#87 May 20 2013 at 8:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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While I think Zelda or Metroid style barriers would be fun to add to MMOs you only play those games for 20-40 hours. Leveling is a big time sink in an MMO because you will often spend years playing one. What are you going to use as a progression metric after you've got your grapply swingy hooky freezy fiery infrared night vision goggles of d00m? Or are you just using equippables as an example? What would the non-leveling MMO player "collect" in order to access content?

Edit. Stoopid auto correct

Edited, May 20th 2013 7:51pm by LebargeX
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#88 May 20 2013 at 9:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I see what you're getting at, and thank you for the Zelda analogy as that put it more in perspective as to what you were talking about. I was still thinking of it from a purely mmo standpoint.


No problem, I was happy to have the chance to explain it better. I get so caught up in the abstract mechanics sometimes and could probably save myself a lot of trouble with some concrete examples... it took me a minute to think of the Zelda example.

LebargeX wrote:
While I think Zelda or Metroid style barriers would be fun to add to MMOs you only play those games for 20-40 hours. Leveling is a big time sink in an MMO because you will often spend years playing one. What are you going to use as a progression metric after you've got your grapply swingy hooky freezy fiery infrared night vision goggles of d00m? Or are you just using equippables as an example? What would the non-leveling MMO player "collect" in order to access content?

Edit. Stoopid auto correct

Edited, May 20th 2013 7:51pm by LebargeX


Well, that's the definitive tradeoff of using levels. The main thing that they do for the developers (stretch out the game artificially) is the thing that most players don't like (adding excessive repetition). But they generally kind of work because some people are satisfied by the feeling that they're working towards something better. It stops working when the player realizes that there is nothing better... just more repetition.

Equippables are just an example, though it is possible (and pretty easy) to design infinitely horizontal equipment systems where the player can never have all of the equipment that they'd want to have--and you can definitely include abilities in that list. Many quests can be predicated upon the completion of earlier quests (that's pretty much a given in any narrative). Area access can also be used, though should generally be relied upon less often--reserved for special areas. Other gameplay features and UI, travel options, etc. are other possibilities.

Speaking very generally, you need players to fight their way through dangerous battles to reach their objectives. Large zones and lots of things to do in them. Getting from A to B is the challenge. Think about how much real estate is wasted in the average MMO today--the places that have no real purpose for you to be there. Now think of games like Zelda and Metroid. Was there ever a room or a screen that you DIDN'T need to go to? Not many. Were the monsters a credible threat for most of the game, or were they pointlessly weak after you had become strong enough? If the game is sufficiently difficult, players won't complete it too quickly.

And with a system like this, you can still do levels. But you might only do 5 or 10 levels. They can still serve the exact same functions if you really need to gate some content.

But ultimately the question shouldn't be, "How will we get players to keep playing without levels?". What we should ask is, "Why don't players want to kill our monsters? Why do we have to give them XP and levels to get them to do it?" In most cases, it's because they've failed to make the combat fun, so they're relying on the carrot to get you to do it.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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