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#102 May 16 2013 at 5:26 PM Rating: Default
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Catwho wrote:
No. I don't want ARR to start as F2P. I don't want it to end up as F2P.

RIFT is clearly switching because they think they can make more money that way. That's their prerogative.


Last time I checked isn't that the prerogative and goal of every business?

I want FFXIV to go F2P, **** just start off F2P. Just look at GW2, great game and they are still pumping out regular content and it's F2P. I feel they really grasped where the industry was heading well before the other companies, as they maintained F2P from GW1. If SE wanted more money they could do a 6 month expansion and sell it for say 15$, not to mention supplement wish cash shop, ie an item to speed up the time it takes to hatch a chocobo. Many people I talk to are more receptive to F2P models over P2P.

Edited, May 16th 2013 7:34pm by crazyorc

Edited, May 16th 2013 7:37pm by crazyorc
#103Killua125, Posted: May 16 2013 at 5:57 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Same here. B2P and F2P models are much more convenient for everyone. Unfortunately, a lot of my friends would be willing to pay and play but they don't like being locked into a subscription for a game.
#104 May 16 2013 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
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As of right now, FFXIV will not be F2P, and it should not even consider going F2P! Let the game have it's chance on the limelight, for all my criticism of the game, the game at the very least has earned a shot at standing on it's own and may the chips fall where they do.

Could FFXIV work with a F2P model ? Sure! Could FFXIV surprise everybody and be a solid P2P model game ? It could happen, if they really really handle their stuff and deliver the goods this time around. But i do not believe that outright they should go for the F2P Model.
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#105 May 16 2013 at 6:10 PM Rating: Good
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crazyorc wrote:
Catwho wrote:
No. I don't want ARR to start as F2P. I don't want it to end up as F2P.

RIFT is clearly switching because they think they can make more money that way. That's their prerogative.


Last time I checked isn't that the prerogative and goal of every business?

I want FFXIV to go F2P, **** just start off F2P. Just look at GW2, great game and they are still pumping out regular content and it's F2P. I feel they really grasped where the industry was heading well before the other companies, as they maintained F2P from GW1. If SE wanted more money they could do a 6 month expansion and sell it for say 15$, not to mention supplement wish cash shop, ie an item to speed up the time it takes to hatch a chocobo. Many people I talk to are more receptive to F2P models over P2P.


I think you'll find that the majority of players who play FFXIV are looking for a subscription game. It works great in FFXI, it works great in WoW. I don't want to have to collect/buy gems in order to buy certain gear, or perks to the game. I'd rather just pay 1 fee monthly and have access to everything. Focus on making content, not new items people buy in the cash shop.

If people want to play a f2p game, games like GW2 cater to that. However, it's already been stated definitively by Yoshi-P that the game will be P2P, so hoping it will be F2P from the start is pointless. It's not going to be, and I for one am extremely glad.

#106 May 16 2013 at 7:29 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
crazyorc wrote:
Catwho wrote:
No. I don't want ARR to start as F2P. I don't want it to end up as F2P.

RIFT is clearly switching because they think they can make more money that way. That's their prerogative.


Last time I checked isn't that the prerogative and goal of every business?

I want FFXIV to go F2P, **** just start off F2P. Just look at GW2, great game and they are still pumping out regular content and it's F2P. I feel they really grasped where the industry was heading well before the other companies, as they maintained F2P from GW1. If SE wanted more money they could do a 6 month expansion and sell it for say 15$, not to mention supplement wish cash shop, ie an item to speed up the time it takes to hatch a chocobo. Many people I talk to are more receptive to F2P models over P2P.


I think you'll find that the majority of players who play FFXIV are looking for a subscription game. It works great in FFXI, it works great in WoW. I don't want to have to collect/buy gems in order to buy certain gear, or perks to the game. I'd rather just pay 1 fee monthly and have access to everything. Focus on making content, not new items people buy in the cash shop.

If people want to play a f2p game, games like GW2 cater to that. However, it's already been stated definitively by Yoshi-P that the game will be P2P, so hoping it will be F2P from the start is pointless. It's not going to be, and I for one am extremely glad.



That is the one thing I love about GW2, the perks you buy are just that perks. Most are cosmetic, and there are those that give exp boosts to various things (for those who loath grinding). No uber all fearing gear, no hidden areas that can only be unlocked after *insert cash amount* is paid. I understand FFXIV will be a sub based game, will I still give it a go... HECK YES! I just enjoyed not being tied down to a sub, or putting it on the shelf for awhile without having to worry about cancelling a subscription. Each to there own though... I think i'll just keep F2P as wishful thinking lol.
#107 May 16 2013 at 8:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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The people who BEG for F2P are people who either Don't want to put a dime into the game, or want to show their Epeen wallet the moment something is released. There is no middle-ground. The ones that don't complain are the ones that are content with whatever situation is presented to them.

Edited, May 16th 2013 10:14pm by Demonadrastos
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#108 May 16 2013 at 8:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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crazyorc wrote:
Catwho wrote:
No. I don't want ARR to start as F2P. I don't want it to end up as F2P.

RIFT is clearly switching because they think they can make more money that way. That's their prerogative.


Last time I checked isn't that the prerogative and goal of every business?

I want FFXIV to go F2P, **** just start off F2P. Just look at GW2, great game and they are still pumping out regular content and it's F2P. I feel they really grasped where the industry was heading well before the other companies, as they maintained F2P from GW1. If SE wanted more money they could do a 6 month expansion and sell it for say 15$, not to mention supplement wish cash shop, ie an item to speed up the time it takes to hatch a chocobo. Many people I talk to are more receptive to F2P models over P2P.


Making money is the primary goal of business, but SE is also pursuing secondary goals with ARR - protecting the brand name and their own reputation. Part of that requires that ARR have longevity. F2P games have a tendency to burn out more quickly, as the free players get bored and the whales are attracted to the next shiny thing to throw their money at once they've beaten all the content.

SE is trying to build a long lasting game, if not another WoW, then another FFXI. Something that will celebrate its 11th anniversary with a ton of people returning for the latest expansion. That kind of staying power just cannot be had with a F2P game.
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#109 May 16 2013 at 9:55 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:


Making money is the primary goal of business, but SE is also pursuing secondary goals with ARR - protecting the brand name and their own reputation. Part of that requires that ARR have longevity. F2P games have a tendency to burn out more quickly, as the free players get bored and the whales are attracted to the next shiny thing to throw their money at once they've beaten all the content.

SE is trying to build a long lasting game, if not another WoW, then another FFXI. Something that will celebrate its 11th anniversary with a ton of people returning for the latest expansion. That kind of staying power just cannot be had with a F2P game.


Yes SE has a lot of PR repair to do. I remember my brother in-law telling me that when he was a student at Art institute of Vancover FFXIV was used as an example of what not to do when releasing a game (not to mention a running joke when someone failed). I am excited for ARR but skeptical as well. There are many loyal fans, but we can not deny that SE burned many bridges with the latest FF games. Many people are simply not willing to invest the interest in a game they view has already failed, when several others MMOs are a few months away from being released. Others would rather spend money on a developer that have proven results with-in the last few years; especially with a growing percentage of the gamer demographic being younger gamers who have never lived the FF glory days. More still have just lost faith in SE and refuse to support the company.

In all the MMOs I've played regardless of P2P or F2P you always have the population drop. Many players jump to the new shiny game, or wait till the game is discounted pick it up than stop playing after the 30 free days. I can think of several P2P games that lost a significant player base with-in the first 3-6 months ie Terra, Rift, WAR... well pretty much any MMO. Almost all MMOs always have a sharp drop with-in the first few months, following a steady decline over a year where it than plateaus into the regular player population. I'm unsure of how income is based when factoring in player-base length between P2P or F2P, but I believe F2P has increased P2P in profits, and is proving to be the lucrative business model. If F2Ps game burn out so quickly, how come it has been the life saver of so many MMOs that were formally P2P ie, DDO, LoTRO, Tera. The fact is the majority of the MMOs player demographic support F2P as the market of MMOs and their payment methods reflect that.

As it seems many people actively invested in the development of FFXIV ARR support P2P, I personally would like to see FFXIV do similar thing as WAR and WOW. F2P to a certain point, more so than the 30 free days with purchase. I'm talking about a chance to download the game for free and play up to a certain point ie level 20 with first dungeon access. Have the rest of the game locked out and of course no AH uses :). Though this might be difficult for PS3 users. I believe this would help regain former players but also recruit more. This would give the players a chance to explore eorzea, and show them all the improvements without risking their hard earned money.

In closing, I do admire SE stoic determination in the face of overwhelming odds, doomsayers, and naysayer. The fact they have become transparent, owned their mistakes, and appear to be learning from them. For that I'll support ARR.


Edited, May 17th 2013 12:09am by crazyorc
#110 May 16 2013 at 10:20 PM Rating: Good
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The fact is if the majority of the MMO demograpic supports F2P as the market of MMO and their payment methods reflect that.


Hmm, care to back that up with some proof? Between WoW and FFXI alone there are almost 10 million P2P subs. I'm not sure, but I'd think if you add up ALL the other F2P MMO's they would barely reach that mark. I just don't get how 15 bucks a month to enjoy everything a game has to offer is such a big hassle. It's not a lot of money, even if you're making minimum wage. Eat out 1 less time a month and you've got more than enough. Conserve electricity in your house... turn down your heat/AC. Get a cheaper phone plan. Work 1-2 extra hours a month.

I dunno, it gets old hearing people trying to make excuses as to why F2P is better. If you like it better, great. Go play GW2 or lotro or one of the other billion games that is F2P. This game is going to be P2P, and I'm glad. It means a more unified, mature community; it means less people buying up XP bonuses/gear/etc, powerleveling and having no clue how to play their class; and most of all it means having content for everything obtainable in-game, not just clicking some button and poof, I've got gear.
#111 May 16 2013 at 10:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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F2P is only better if you have no money and lots of time, or lots of money and no time.

For those of us with a little bit of money and a little bit of time, P2P turns out to be your best entertainment value.
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#112 May 16 2013 at 10:44 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
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The fact is if the majority of the MMO demograpic supports F2P as the market of MMO and their payment methods reflect that.


Hmm, care to back that up with some proof? Between WoW and FFXI alone there are almost 10 million P2P subs. I'm not sure, but I'd think if you add up ALL the other F2P MMO's they would barely reach that mark. I just don't get how 15 bucks a month to enjoy everything a game has to offer is such a big hassle. It's not a lot of money, even if you're making minimum wage. Eat out 1 less time a month and you've got more than enough. Conserve electricity in your house... turn down your heat/AC. Get a cheaper phone plan. Work 1-2 extra hours a month.

I dunno, it gets old hearing people trying to make excuses as to why F2P is better. If you like it better, great. Go play GW2 or lotro or one of the other billion games that is F2P. This game is going to be P2P, and I'm glad. It means a more unified, mature community; it means less people buying up XP bonuses/gear/etc, powerleveling and having no clue how to play their class; and most of all it means having content for everything obtainable in-game, not just clicking some button and poof, I've got gear.


Sorry I should have place some more facts in my above post. Here are some facts Teras population has increased to 1.4million since going F2P, more players than it had during its P2P phase. World of tanks has 20 million registered users.

I'm not saying I don't support P2P, I was stating some F2P elements might be beneficial for SE at this time. Since trust is a hard thing to earn, and many people don't want to pay money to see if a company has fixed it's previous problems and kept true to it's word. Many of my friends refuse to pay box price and than a sub, just to see if the game has been brought up to modern MMO standard. I tell them about trying open beta, give it a try. For many of them it's a waste of time with MMOs having such a saturated market, and the next AAA always around the corner. They're more keen on those. How is SE going to make a bang and make themselves heard and seen. I can tell you now people will not care or even bat an eye at FFXIV is they have to pay full price for a "fixed game". SE needs to bait them hence the starting off F2P, get them incited and interested without any initial financial investment from the potential player. Think of it like a contentious limited open beta, if you decided the game is enjoyable, subscribe and enjoy the entire game.




Edited, May 17th 2013 12:55am by crazyorc
#113 May 16 2013 at 10:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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World of tanks has 20 million registered users.


Is that an MMO?

I've said before that SE has no shot at denting the MMO market share, and that's fine.. they shouldn't care about it. Their target audience should be Final Fantasy fans and former FFXI players. Those are the people that are going to care about XIV.

I also think that SE has a horrific track record when it comes to microtransactions in games. The idea of XIV having a cash shop is actually frightening because of that.
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#114 May 16 2013 at 11:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
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World of tanks has 20 million registered users.


Is that an MMO?


I think it falls to semantics.It has won MMORPG awards. Some state it's not an MMO because it is not a large persistent world, instead it is large instance battles. But either way it's highly successful.

Edited, May 17th 2013 1:06am by crazyorc
#115 May 17 2013 at 12:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well i won't get into numbers but you can't really compare how many people play a free MMO with how many people play a P2P MMO. Because for example (the numbers ill give are not real) from the 20mil that play world of tanks only like 100-500k will pay for something in it. So if a P2P game has 1mil subs it still wins over world of tanks that has 20mil.

I will not go on again into this pointless argument if its better to go F2P or not but when you try to compare a F2P with a P2P game you don't compare the numbers that play simple because not all the players in the F2P pay.
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#116 May 17 2013 at 1:18 AM Rating: Default
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I don't think it's a pointless argument, there is something to take from F2P success, and how other games have implemented their own cash shops in to games, like World of Warcraft for example, their cash shop is not as robust as Swotor, but is effective and well done, SE could do something like that to increase revenue from the game. Now will they or not ? Who Knows! Now keep beating that horse....
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#117 May 17 2013 at 5:37 AM Rating: Good
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I can tell you now people will not care or even bat an eye at FFXIV is they have to pay full price for a "fixed game". SE needs to bait them hence the starting off F2P, get them incited and interested without any initial financial investment from the potential player.


Well then it's a good thing that if you bought the original game, you don't have to buy it again. It's also a good thing there will be an open beta where everyone can try anything they want, and even better, if they like it they can carry their characters over to release. I don't think SE needs to bait anyone, and I think that's abundantly clear by the fact that there were several hundred thousand people in beta phase 2, and that still seems like the minority of people who are interested in the game already. And they haven't even really been marketing it yet, so that seems like a very good thing. Oh wait, they haven't even TOUCHED the PS3 market, and there is a pretty decent fanbase on it that has been clamoring for an mmo, so they already have that market basically cornered without lifting a finger.


Edited, May 17th 2013 7:37am by BartelX
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#118 May 17 2013 at 6:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
As of right now, FFXIV will not be F2P, and it should not even consider going F2P! Let the game have it's chance on the limelight, for all my criticism of the game, the game at the very least has earned a shot at standing on it's own and may the chips fall where they do.
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Smiley: jawdrop

Holy sh** did I just read that right? I'm gonna go withdraw all my money from the bank and put it under my mattress because the Apocalypse is nye.

Quote:
Many of my friends refuse to pay box price and than a sub, just to see if the game has been brought up to modern MMO standard. I tell them about trying open beta, give it a try. For many of them it's a waste of time with MMOs having such a saturated market, and the next AAA always around the corner. They're more keen on those. How is SE going to make a bang and make themselves heard and seen. I can tell you now people will not care or even bat an eye at FFXIV is they have to pay full price for a "fixed game".


It's not full price, ARR is being released at what? $40? Seekers of Aduilin released at $30 and its an expansion to an 11-year-old game...

I think your friends are cheap and should stay in F2P land. I don't think the game should suffer so that your friends will log in once a month and shout in Ul'Dah "LOL FFXIV Sucks, Terra is better" and leave.

Because that's what happens in F2P.

Edited, May 17th 2013 8:08am by Louiscool
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#119 May 17 2013 at 6:23 AM Rating: Good
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Honestly, I don't really want the folks who are going to hang around and "try" a game for a month before flitting off to the next big AAA title. They're just going to add server lag and not add any long term value to the community.

It is a well known fact that people are more committed to something if there is a long term buy in and up front cost. That's why people are more successful at exercise when they join a gym, why they are more successful at dieting when they join Weight Watchers, and why Match.com is much more successful at getting people dates than Craigslist.
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#120 May 17 2013 at 7:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
That's why people are more successful at exercise when they join a gym, why they are more successful at dieting when they join Weight Watchers, and why Match.com is much more successful at getting people dates than Craigslist.


A few years ago when I was single and desperate, I went to meet someone from craigslist for a movie. Obviously she never showed up, and I later found out that she had invited about 10 guys there and showed up two hours late to see who would wait the longest for her. I waited about 10 minutes and then went to the bar to drown my shame in beer... why did I just tell everyone that? Smiley: oyvey
#121 May 17 2013 at 8:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
Catwho wrote:
That's why people are more successful at exercise when they join a gym, why they are more successful at dieting when they join Weight Watchers, and why Match.com is much more successful at getting people dates than Craigslist.


A few years ago when I was single and desperate, I went to meet someone from craigslist for a movie. Obviously she never showed up, and I later found out that she had invited about 10 guys there and showed up two hours late to see who would wait the longest for her. I waited about 10 minutes and then went to the bar to drown my shame in beer... why did I just tell everyone that? Smiley: oyvey



Ok the most important question here...was the beer good?
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#122 May 17 2013 at 8:28 AM Rating: Good
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It was quite good... there is an Uno's at the mall that has like 20 beers on tap, half of them are pretty decent craft brews. So really it turned into a pretty good night.
#123 May 17 2013 at 11:37 AM Rating: Decent
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why cant they just take what they are overpaid and put it into an account for the cash store if there is one? i think that would calm alot of the outburst down at least a lil bit... however there are those who dont want to play at all anymore and would like there full refund which is understandable...
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#124 May 17 2013 at 12:58 PM Rating: Excellent
In hindsight, going down the street to buy that beer was probably one of the best choices you'll ever make.
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#125 May 17 2013 at 1:00 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
It is a well known fact that people are more committed to something if there is a long term buy in and up front cost. That's why people are more successful at exercise when they join a gym, why they are more successful at dieting when they join Weight Watchers, and why Match.com is much more successful at getting people dates than Craigslist.


I visited the gym I had a paid membership to more frequently then I go to my current, free gym. I get your point, but it really only makes a case for XI/XIV extending their subscription periods and not just retaining a sub model. Sure you can get people to commit to playing your game more frequently in a month if you charge by the month, but it doesn't support long-term longevity of the game beyond that month. I went to the paid gym more frequently, but since I dropped my membership there I have been to the free gym more overall...

Yes, you can 'motivate' people to use your product more frequently if they're paying for it because almost everyone has the 'gotta get my money's worth' threshold. It is also true that you can motivate them to return either in the long term or more frequently with content. Just my opinion, but I'd rather be motivated by the content than the feeling like I had to play a lot to get value out of the service.






Edited, May 17th 2013 3:00pm by FilthMcNasty
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#126 May 17 2013 at 1:04 PM Rating: Excellent
I am far more motivated by content when there are not cash barriers per the content. With P2P, you get content as the ultimate motivation, and you can get ALL of the content by doing cool things in he game, which is way more fun than paying cash in a cash shop.
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#127 May 17 2013 at 1:09 PM Rating: Excellent



Fun fact, I recently paid to join a gym, even though I already have free memberships at 24 hr fitness and an MMA gym (and I am runner). It's just that the paid gym is a smaller, more personal experience. It is only an extra $15 a month, so why not?
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#128 May 17 2013 at 1:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
I am far more motivated by content when there are not cash barriers per the content. With P2P, you get content as the ultimate motivation, and you can get ALL of the content by doing cool things in he game, which is way more fun than paying cash in a cash shop.

In TERA you can either purchase those nifty bunny ears for your character with real money or you can earn enough money to purchase them with gold on the auction. In World of Tanks you can either play 200 games and grind out the experience and credits to unlock and purchase tanks or you can subscribe to a premium account and do it in less time(read: games played). In League of Legends you can grind out the IP to unlock champions over a longer time or you can purchase bonuses to IP to get them in less games played.

There are ways to implement the content so that it's accessible through play or pay. Forgive me if I'm reading you incorrectly, but it sounds like you're making it out to be an ultimatum instead of a choice. The examples above are cake and eat it too because they accommodate either playstyle.

It's kinda like the casual vs hardcore debate. You don't have to have content that only rewards one type of player. Using XI as an example, you have experience bonus rings that have a slightly higher reward for those who can commit the time to leveling a job every day and rings that still reward players who can only play a couple times a week. There isn't any reason (and a few examples of proof) that you can't do it both ways.

Edited, May 17th 2013 3:58pm by FilthMcNasty
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#129 May 17 2013 at 2:04 PM Rating: Decent
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F2P just runs (most) games into the ground. I'll gladly pay a monthly subscription.
#130 May 17 2013 at 2:12 PM Rating: Excellent
Filth, that sounds a lot like P2W, which is bad for communities on an entirely different level.
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#131 May 17 2013 at 2:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
Filth, that sounds a lot like P2W, which is bad for communities on an entirely different level.



I must admit that Tera Rising has in fact a good F2P model if what i saw so far is correct. Meaning you have access to everything and everyone. The things you pay i believe are for like more bank slots lower ah taxes and outfits. Oh and you can only have like 2 slots per server or something.

But can't be 100% yet since i only just started it and don't know if ill keep playing it.

Edited, May 17th 2013 5:00pm by Teravibe
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#132 May 17 2013 at 3:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wait wait, i just checked their store. It seems it is a kind of P2W. They have in store xp boosts as well as gold boost from killing monsters and also reputation boosts.
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#133 May 17 2013 at 3:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Exp boost is not pay to win.... Buying armor from the cash shop with money would be pay to win
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#134 May 17 2013 at 3:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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So someone "stealing" his way to max level and gaining 10 times more than you in gold and could afford more stuff from the AH is not P2W? Well if the term is not correct ok i guess but in my eyes as a personal opinion is a kind of P2W.
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#135 May 17 2013 at 3:26 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't know how this thread ended up from F2P to shady users?
Yoshi stated at least at the outset, this game will be P2P. Some may not like it but it just has to be dealt with.
If the sub numbers are nowhere near where they want them. I am willing to bet that SE will explore other avenues of payment models.
Maybe instead of shunning P2P or FTP. We should speak of what type of payment models we would like, should the worst case scenario happen.
#136 May 17 2013 at 3:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Teravibe wrote:
So someone "stealing" his way to max level and gaining 10 times more than you in gold and could afford more stuff from the AH is not P2W? Well if the term is not correct ok i guess but in my eyes as a personal opinion is a kind of P2W.


There are lots and lots of ways developers give "Boosted EXP' for free, rested exp es boosted exp in a sense, as for gold, it makes no difference, you only get a few gold more from killing creeps, nobody in MMO is making tons of gold from farming creeps, they make tons of money from farming mats, also boosted exp only affects leveling up, which it's on itself not the primary goal of an MMO, is only a stepping stone.
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#137 May 17 2013 at 3:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
Teravibe wrote:
So someone "stealing" his way to max level and gaining 10 times more than you in gold and could afford more stuff from the AH is not P2W? Well if the term is not correct ok i guess but in my eyes as a personal opinion is a kind of P2W.


There are lots and lots of ways developers give "Boosted EXP' for free, rested exp es boosted exp in a sense, as for gold, it makes no difference, you only get a few gold more from killing creeps, nobody in MMO is making tons of gold from farming creeps, they make tons of money from farming mats, also boosted exp only affects leveling up, which it's on itself not the primary goal of an MMO, is only a stepping stone.



You simplify things a lot. Free xp boost exist yes but if you pay you get the free boost PLUS the payed one so i do know why you mentioned that. As for how much gold they make i do not know that for sure. I mean i am pretty sure they are farminng for xp so it wouldn't surprise me if they also farm for gold in higher levels, unless you played Tera and know for a fact that it is not profitable then i have nothing to say on that except the fact that the boost is totally useless and shouldn't be there.
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#138 May 17 2013 at 5:25 PM Rating: Good
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I know it doesn't fully translate, but....

Dust514 is free to download. There is a download pack for $100 that gives you lots of stuff, and another for $100 that gives you 225k in game currency. So $200 to 'unlock' all the goodies from the start. Let's translate that to a P2P game. I could buy FFXIV for PS3, and get 10 months give or take of sub time. It's not hard to see which one is the better value.

Has anyone ever added up how much all the cash shop items are in the F2P games out there right now. Maybe GW2 to start with?
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#139 May 17 2013 at 6:55 PM Rating: Default
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Teravibe wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Teravibe wrote:
So someone "stealing" his way to max level and gaining 10 times more than you in gold and could afford more stuff from the AH is not P2W? Well if the term is not correct ok i guess but in my eyes as a personal opinion is a kind of P2W.


There are lots and lots of ways developers give "Boosted EXP' for free, rested exp es boosted exp in a sense, as for gold, it makes no difference, you only get a few gold more from killing creeps, nobody in MMO is making tons of gold from farming creeps, they make tons of money from farming mats, also boosted exp only affects leveling up, which it's on itself not the primary goal of an MMO, is only a stepping stone.



You simplify things a lot. Free xp boost exist yes but if you pay you get the free boost PLUS the payed one so i do know why you mentioned that. As for how much gold they make i do not know that for sure. I mean i am pretty sure they are farminng for xp so it wouldn't surprise me if they also farm for gold in higher levels, unless you played Tera and know for a fact that it is not profitable then i have nothing to say on that except the fact that the boost is totally useless and shouldn't be there.


You are complaining about Pay to Win being akin to Free to Play. My point is, that may pay to play games, already offer free bonus EXP for example, in different forms, somebody paying 3-5 bucks for it, would not brake the game, and would not affect you in the slightest.... On the contrary the developer is making extra money, more money, more updates, more updates, hopefully a more bug free, and balanced game, and content patches :) I do not agree with XIV being F2P, but there are stuff they can borrow from a F2P model like blizzard has done to a point.
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#140 May 17 2013 at 8:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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XP boosts are a normal cash shop item. I'm pretty sure they're in all of them.

Paying for Excalibur is pay to win. Paying for that set of Legendary Obsidian Dragon Armor +15 on the cash shop is pay to win. Paying to level slightly faster is only pay to win if you consider character level to be the greatest determining factor in a player's power.

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#141 May 17 2013 at 9:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, league is also pretty great with it's f2p system. The community sucks, but I've spent about 50 bucks on just skins and various other things, but they limit any items that would help you win to in-game currency earned by playing.
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#142 May 17 2013 at 9:55 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
Yeah, league is also pretty great with it's f2p system. The community sucks, but I've spent about 50 bucks on just skins and various other things, but they limit any items that would help you win to in-game currency earned by playing.


I was actually gonna bring Legue as an example of F2P done right, the game is totally free, and there is nothing you can buy, that gives you an edge over somebody that does not pay a dime. There are little elements that can be implemented on XIV, and eventually they will, i bet money that sooner or later, there will be a pet/mount for sale :) You can count on that.
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#143 May 17 2013 at 10:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'd rather they take XI's approach and sell a stuffed animal in real life for $20 that comes with a code for a pet mount.

I don't mine paying money for real life goods that come with matching virtual toys. At least that way if the game goes belly up in five years, I still have a tangible good.

(I love my chirping chocobo chick!)

Edited, May 18th 2013 12:31am by Catwho
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#144 May 17 2013 at 10:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sounds like going F2P isn't going so well...
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#145 May 17 2013 at 11:03 PM Rating: Decent
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100 layoffs please stop the presses!!! F2P market has crashed XD!
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#146 May 18 2013 at 12:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'd rather they take XI's approach and sell a stuffed animal in real life for $20 that comes with a code for a pet mount.


Yeah, this is cool!

I don't mind items being sold by gaming companies, but I just don't want that to be the primary business model of the game. I want the vast majority of all rewards -- whether it's exp, gil, items, skins, epic gear, whatever -- to be earned in the game. A few bonus items here and there (as more of something special for fans) is totally cool.
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#147 May 18 2013 at 12:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Filth, that sounds a lot like P2W, which is bad for communities on an entirely different level.


Teravibe wrote:
So someone "stealing" his way to max level and gaining 10 times more than you in gold and could afford more stuff from the AH is not P2W? Well if the term is not correct ok i guess but in my eyes as a personal opinion is a kind of P2W.


The issue here is people's definition of pay to win. P2W is a term reserved for items that are only available through the cash shop that are better than what is available to players who play the game normally. An example would be a super strength materia that is of a higher quality than anything you could obtain playing the game. Buying a relic weapon that has all of the stats a normal relic has with an added augment of your choice. Buying a buff for your character that allows you to do more damage, take less damage or otherwise outperform people who weren't spending real money.

Almost all of the buffs and perks in the games I mentioned do nothing more than either make an aesthetic change in your characters appearance or shorten the time it takes you to accrue the experience or currency needed to unlock the exact same things you could unlock by playing the game normally. Not pay to win.

The only exception to this would be the vehicles in World of Tanks that are only available through the gift shop. The difference there is that you are matched up against other players in PvP according to the tier of the vehicle you play and at best, premium vehicles are on par with their even tier counterparts. Most of them are watered down versions that get a slight bonus to money generation. Most people who purchase these tanks don't do it because they dominate the battlefield, but because they earn money slightly faster and allow you to purchase the same crews, equipment and modules that everyone else uses.
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#148 May 18 2013 at 12:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
I'd rather they take XI's approach and sell a stuffed animal in real life for $20 that comes with a code for a pet mount.


Yeah, this is cool!

I don't mind items being sold by gaming companies, but I just don't want that to be the primary business model of the game. I want the vast majority of all rewards -- whether it's exp, gil, items, skins, epic gear, whatever -- to be earned in the game. A few bonus items here and there (as more of something special for fans) is totally cool.


So like a Blizzard approach ? Only sell a few mounts/pets on special occasions etc etc. Nothing groundbreaking etc etc.

P.S: I only mentioned blizzard because that is the only company i know to have done it right, i have no idea if this was done in FFXI correctly.
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#149 May 18 2013 at 12:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
I'd rather they take XI's approach and sell a stuffed animal in real life for $20 that comes with a code for a pet mount.


Yeah, this is cool!

I don't mind items being sold by gaming companies, but I just don't want that to be the primary business model of the game. I want the vast majority of all rewards -- whether it's exp, gil, items, skins, epic gear, whatever -- to be earned in the game. A few bonus items here and there (as more of something special for fans) is totally cool.


So like a Blizzard approach ? Only sell a few mounts/pets on special occasions etc etc. Nothing groundbreaking etc etc.

P.S: I only mentioned blizzard because that is the only company i know to have done it right, i have no idea if this was done in FFXI correctly.


The Tidal Talisman and the furniture for the Piano Collections CD come to mind. Blizzard does these a lot and many times the proceeds go toward some type of charity. I remember picking up the pet that proceeds went to Red Cross for victims of the earthquake and tsunami in Japan. Obviously SE was affected by the tragedy and couldn't respond the same way, but it would be nice to see more things like this from SE.

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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#150 May 18 2013 at 12:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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So like a Blizzard approach ? Only sell a few mounts/pets on special occasions etc etc. Nothing groundbreaking etc etc.


Yes, that would be OK by me. Seasonal stuff, or anniversary items... and any in-game items should be so slight that hardcore players wouldn't even want to equip in the game, unless they were just hanging out around town.

FFXI had some kind of trinket that unlocked a code for a similar in-game item that had like 10 free teleports... things like that. Virtually meaningless. The real benefit would be the real-world item, and not any lasting in-game benefit.


EDIT: That said, with that feature, the game would have to be P2P in order to be profitable, with that kind of "vendor" activity being purely supplemental profit for SE.



Edited, May 17th 2013 11:42pm by Thayos
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#151 May 18 2013 at 12:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
So like a Blizzard approach ? Only sell a few mounts/pets on special occasions etc etc. Nothing groundbreaking etc etc.


Yes, that would be OK by me. Seasonal stuff, or anniversary items... and any in-game items should be so slight that hardcore players wouldn't even want to equip in the game, unless they were just hanging out around town.

FFXI had some kind of trinket that unlocked a code for a similar in-game item that had like 10 free teleports... things like that. Virtually meaningless. The real benefit would be the real-world item, and not any lasting in-game benefit.


EDIT: That said, with that feature, the game would have to be P2P in order to be profitable, with that kind of "vendor" activity being purely supplemental profit for SE.



Edited, May 17th 2013 11:42pm by Thayos


Well that is my point, FFXIV could have a cash shop of sorts, but just for stuff like that, for extra income, nothing ground breaking etc etc. I have never advocated F2P btw.
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