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#27 May 25 2013 at 5:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
[, i actually did what should have been done


Now, see, this here is part of what I'm talking about. I made the post public deliberately, and for a reason. Mainly in response to your public chiding of Wint for the action taken in response to your reported thread, to show that road goes two ways if you want to go that route. Should does not equate "Gee, I sure wish it was that way". Yes, there is a PM dialogue going on as well at this point, but don't presume you get to make policy or dictate terms of how this proceeds at this point. Such comments are not going to help your case here, and you are not in the clear yet by any means. Would a temp mute punctuate things a little better? That could certainly be arranged if you like.
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#28 May 25 2013 at 5:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyrist wrote:
Dear Kaolain,

Years ago, when I was but a fledgling member of the forums. I was deeply critical of your administration actions back then. My protests were made in the defense of a one known as Tofubot and his humorous antics. Words were spoken harshly, and I even went as far as publicly rating you down as an expression of disagreement for that stance (I do believe that triggered the removal of rating being possible on Admins, actually.)

In the years watching you more closely, and the level of tolerance you express on behalf of members who make repeated violations. You show tolerance beyond my own limits and a firm but fair approach to meeting it out. This observation over the years has made me feel regret over the choice words and actions I had back then, and I just wanted to be forward and apologize for them. You know what you are doing, you do it well, and it was brash of me to question them.

Keep kicking *** man. You do a **** of a job, as thankless as it is.

Waiting anxiously for your day to be made,
Hyrist.


Technically it was Allakhazam getting rated sub scholar after the site was initially sold during the botched initial announcement that triggered the rating change. Regarding the other issue, that was long ago and water under the bridge as far as I am concerned. People disagree with admins sometimes, so there were no hard feelings on this end. I do appreciate the comment and I'm glad you have a better appreciation of some of the shenanigans we go through on this end. Thank you for that!

Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
That I could see as as annoying since it's like dealing with 2 bickering 6 years olds.

Some days its more like 6 bickering 2 year olds. And potty training is involved...
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#29 May 25 2013 at 5:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Posting in a legendary thread.

That aside, I'm going to exercise the measure to keep my opinion to myself, and hope this resolves the issue.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

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Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#30 May 25 2013 at 5:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
Dear Kaolain,

Years ago, when I was but a fledgling member of the forums. I was deeply critical of your administration actions back then. My protests were made in the defense of a one known as Tofubot and his humorous antics. Words were spoken harshly, and I even went as far as publicly rating you down as an expression of disagreement for that stance (I do believe that triggered the removal of rating being possible on Admins, actually.)

In the years watching you more closely, and the level of tolerance you express on behalf of members who make repeated violations. You show tolerance beyond my own limits and a firm but fair approach to meeting it out. This observation over the years has made me feel regret over the choice words and actions I had back then, and I just wanted to be forward and apologize for them. You know what you are doing, you do it well, and it was brash of me to question them.

Keep kicking *** man. You do a **** of a job, as thankless as it is.

Waiting anxiously for your day to be made,
Hyrist.


Technically it was Allakhazam getting rated sub scholar after the site was initially sold during the botched initial announcement that triggered the rating change. Regarding the other issue, that was long ago and water under the bridge as far as I am concerned. People disagree with admins sometimes, so there were no hard feelings on this end. I do appreciate the comment and I'm glad you have a better appreciation of some of the shenanigans we go through on this end. Thank you for that!

Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
That I could see as as annoying since it's like dealing with 2 bickering 6 years olds.

Some days its more like 6 bickering 2 year olds. And potty training is involved...


This is a great example of how this forum could be unique....by adding the "like" button
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#31 May 25 2013 at 5:45 PM Rating: Good
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As far as my part in this debacle goes I must apologize to the community and the admins. I'm embarrassed to be a part of the issue which lead to these controversial actions.
#32 May 25 2013 at 5:50 PM Rating: Default
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:

Some days its more like 6 bickering 2 year olds. And potty training is involved...


Hmm... potty training and the ability to post angry comments all in one package, I think I have something for that!

http://mashable.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/iPotty-inpost.jpg

(And yes, I fail at trying to insert the picture into my post)
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#33 May 25 2013 at 5:51 PM Rating: Default
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je355804 wrote:
As far as my part in this debacle goes I must apologize to the community and the admins. I'm embarrassed to be a part of the issue which lead to these controversial actions.


Yet your moogle says " Im a boss"
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#34 May 25 2013 at 5:52 PM Rating: Default
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Smiley: lol
Yunchang wrote:
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:

Some days its more like 6 bickering 2 year olds. And potty training is involved...


Hmm... potty training and the ability to post angry comments all in one package, I think I have something for that!

http://mashable.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/iPotty-inpost.jpg

(And yes, I fail at trying to insert the picture into my post)


Smiley: lol That was funny Smiley: lol
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#35 May 25 2013 at 5:56 PM Rating: Default
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Ostia wrote:
WFOAssassin wrote:
Well, Ostia, would you like to respond to the OP? I am interested in how you feel about this since you have an opinion about everything else. Care to respond directly to the OP or to how we/you feel about the public display of your reprimand?

Edited, May 25th 2013 5:09pm by WFOAssassin


Ok i'll Bait! Considering i was not banned nor muted, the notion you feel this is a public display of "Reprimand" speaks far louder about you, than this post speaks of myself Smiley: lol As for the thread itself, i actually did what should have been done, and took the meter to Private.


That is basically what I was looking for. Someone above turned it into a "Ostia, flame me so you get it" type thing. I just wanted to know if you were taking it as a joke or not. I personally think this should be a behind closed doors issue unless there are tons of people that were demanding action against you and the Admins wanted to show that the people have been heard... And by the posts you have been making over the last week, which is where I really noticed you, I'm sure people are making demands and wanting to see action. So perhaps this is a warning and an answer to peoples demands for action?

I don't know you and I learned in Socom 2 that people over the internet have big mouths. If it bothers someone that much, ignore them. Especially when the individual is purposely trying to get you into an argument.
#36 May 25 2013 at 5:59 PM Rating: Default
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WFOAssassin wrote:
Ostia wrote:
WFOAssassin wrote:
Well, Ostia, would you like to respond to the OP? I am interested in how you feel about this since you have an opinion about everything else. Care to respond directly to the OP or to how we/you feel about the public display of your reprimand?

Edited, May 25th 2013 5:09pm by WFOAssassin


Ok i'll Bait! Considering i was not banned nor muted, the notion you feel this is a public display of "Reprimand" speaks far louder about you, than this post speaks of myself Smiley: lol As for the thread itself, i actually did what should have been done, and took the meter to Private.


That is basically what I was looking for. Someone above turned it into a "Ostia, flame me so you get it" type thing. I just wanted to know if you were taking it as a joke or not. I personally think this should be a behind closed doors issue unless there are tons of people that were demanding action against you and the Admins wanted to show that the people have been heard... And by the posts you have been making over the last week, which is where I really noticed you, I'm sure people are making demands and wanting to see action. So perhaps this is a warning and an answer to peoples demands for action?

I don't know you and I learned in Socom 2 that people over the internet have big mouths. If it bothers someone that much, ignore them. Especially when the individual is purposely trying to get you into an argument.


It took Socom to learn that people on the internet have big mouths?
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#37 May 25 2013 at 6:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Now if I may seriously weigh in on this subject a moment.

Regardless of what is going on in the background, I would like to express my experience to Ostia.

Sir, to be frank, it seems like you enjoy being contrary to others here. It is one thing to stand firm in the face of disagreement to a crowd, it is another to use those disagreements to egg others on. In my experience of you, you do the latter. I would presume that perhaps you are not aware of it, but the amount of time given on this subject on the forums has been such that that form of presumption can no longer be valid. Simply put, you should know better than to be deliberately contrary by now.

There have been individuals while also contrary and abrasive, were also actually very helpful to the community, bringing forth raw data concerning games and arguing facts rather than conjectures. I will cite ThePsychoticOne as an example, though he may be before your time. His contributions did not render his abrasiveness moot nor ultimately protect him from being banned permanently from the Zam network. And I would go to dare say that he had provided far more to the community thus far than yourself.

This goes to emphasis the fact that the skill to be able to debate without arguing, and most importantly being able to listen, respect, and obey the requests given by the Administration are necessary to survival on these boards, regardless of how popular or helpful you are.

As a challenge, I'd like you to look at the members of these boards, particularly the ones in this thread that seem to be in agreement with Kaolain's statements. Take it as a challenge to win these people over. Not necessarily to your point of thinking, but perhaps to understand and accept your viewpoints. It is not necessary that we agree, but it is that we get along to a certain degree.
#38 May 25 2013 at 6:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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The issue with the other long since banned person being discussed here was that while he provided a great value to the community, he also toed the line with personal attacks far too much. (Even he didn't do personal attacks on the mods, though.) Members who feel they are being picked on have every right to report posts to the moderators, when it becomes clear that karma rating doesn't matter to the bully in question. That particular rift split forum=10 into two opposing camps, both of whom to this day still snipe at each other.

I don't want Ostia to go that route. I don't think any of us here do.

Then again, what do I know? I always just make stuff up and spread falsehoods and lies. Smiley: rolleyes
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#39 May 25 2013 at 6:42 PM Rating: Good
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It's true that there's a difference between disagreeing and being argumentative. Disagreements on the internet are never reconcilable and are an overall annoyance to everyone reading, past the face value of drama. You should only fight the fights you can't win if they're really worth it, and while it's an honest mistake to try to display intelligence by counter-opining, it is...again...unwinnable and generally just annoying.

People should strive to make their posts draw replies, without resorting to disagreeing with what was just said. That's a higher standard. Anyone can make someone reply to them by nitpicking at their comments like a gadfly.
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#40 May 25 2013 at 6:50 PM Rating: Decent
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#41 May 25 2013 at 6:53 PM Rating: Decent
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benjjjamin wrote:
Anyone can make someone reply to them by nitpicking at their comments like a gadfly.


As ironic as I'm being here, it is quite possible to ignore the nitpicking. Responding to negativity with more negativity isn't going to get either person anywhere. At the end of the day, the person doesn't know you, doesn't care about your opinions if they're willing to go back and forth. To me, there's no point in caring so much about an anonymous disagreement. That's why I'm sure Ostia just does it for fun, because people seriously get bent out of shape whenever he's involved. He's sadistic, alright.
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#42 May 25 2013 at 7:00 PM Rating: Decent
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It's possible, but it's not natural. Everyone hallucinates at different hours sleep deprivation. Everyone hits the reply button at different levels of provocation. We discourage argumentative people by not promoting them out in the real world. There's really no mechanism to discourage it on the internet, but on the whole it puts a lot of people off who have better things to say than nuh uh, it's not that it's this.

On a group level it become impossible to not have to deal with such argumentative posters, because it is a guarantee that someone will not ignore them.
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#43 May 25 2013 at 7:00 PM Rating: Default
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I'm going to weigh in here since I feel that lately Ostia and I have had more escalated arguments than most. Although I don't appreciate the name-calling and sometimes overtly rude posts, I still respect Ostia and wouldn't want to see him booted. I'm of the feeling that even with disagreements, and even with the sometimes toxic nature of posts, Ostia still brings a wealth of knowledge to the forums and it would be a shame to see that lost. I would like to see him be a little less hostile in his posting style, as would many I think, but a ban at this point doesn't seem like it would accomplish much. Please consider this from one of his biggest antagonists.
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#44 May 25 2013 at 7:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
Ostia still brings a wealth of knowledge to the forums and it would be a shame to see that lost. I would like to see him be a little less hostile in his posting style


I think this nails it. Less hostility/baiting.

I would be the first to admit that I think Ostia knows more about RPG's than I do. Would love to keep him, but not as he's currently posting.
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#45 May 25 2013 at 7:37 PM Rating: Default
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Hey Ostia,
I like you. I feel you bring something this forum something it needs. Basically you're getting the behave or you're gone statement. I know that might make you feel pretty ******* Please don't do anything rash. I disagree with people all the time but I don't voice it publicly always. If I did I'd prolly be in jail with how vocal I am in person.

I hope anyone who goads him during this sensitive time get punished too should he react.
#46 May 25 2013 at 7:49 PM Rating: Default
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electromagnet83 wrote:
WFOAssassin wrote:
Ostia wrote:
WFOAssassin wrote:
Well, Ostia, would you like to respond to the OP? I am interested in how you feel about this since you have an opinion about everything else. Care to respond directly to the OP or to how we/you feel about the public display of your reprimand?

Edited, May 25th 2013 5:09pm by WFOAssassin


Ok i'll Bait! Considering i was not banned nor muted, the notion you feel this is a public display of "Reprimand" speaks far louder about you, than this post speaks of myself Smiley: lol As for the thread itself, i actually did what should have been done, and took the meter to Private.


That is basically what I was looking for. Someone above turned it into a "Ostia, flame me so you get it" type thing. I just wanted to know if you were taking it as a joke or not. I personally think this should be a behind closed doors issue unless there are tons of people that were demanding action against you and the Admins wanted to show that the people have been heard... And by the posts you have been making over the last week, which is where I really noticed you, I'm sure people are making demands and wanting to see action. So perhaps this is a warning and an answer to peoples demands for action?

I don't know you and I learned in Socom 2 that people over the internet have big mouths. If it bothers someone that much, ignore them. Especially when the individual is purposely trying to get you into an argument.


It took Socom to learn that people on the internet have big mouths?


That was my first time playing an onlie game. Socom 1. I didn;t play PC games so when the PS2 got a Network Addaptor and Socom, I was hooked, then I got the HDD for FFXI and my life took a strange turn. I had no idea the online community and games were so much fun before Socom though.
#47 May 25 2013 at 8:11 PM Rating: Default
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WFOAssassin wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
WFOAssassin wrote:
Ostia wrote:
WFOAssassin wrote:
Well, Ostia, would you like to respond to the OP? I am interested in how you feel about this since you have an opinion about everything else. Care to respond directly to the OP or to how we/you feel about the public display of your reprimand?

Edited, May 25th 2013 5:09pm by WFOAssassin


Ok i'll Bait! Considering i was not banned nor muted, the notion you feel this is a public display of "Reprimand" speaks far louder about you, than this post speaks of myself Smiley: lol As for the thread itself, i actually did what should have been done, and took the meter to Private.


That is basically what I was looking for. Someone above turned it into a "Ostia, flame me so you get it" type thing. I just wanted to know if you were taking it as a joke or not. I personally think this should be a behind closed doors issue unless there are tons of people that were demanding action against you and the Admins wanted to show that the people have been heard... And by the posts you have been making over the last week, which is where I really noticed you, I'm sure people are making demands and wanting to see action. So perhaps this is a warning and an answer to peoples demands for action?

I don't know you and I learned in Socom 2 that people over the internet have big mouths. If it bothers someone that much, ignore them. Especially when the individual is purposely trying to get you into an argument.


It took Socom to learn that people on the internet have big mouths?


That was my first time playing an onlie game. Socom 1. I didn;t play PC games so when the PS2 got a Network Addaptor and Socom, I was hooked, then I got the HDD for FFXI and my life took a strange turn. I had no idea the online community and games were so much fun before Socom though.


Yikes. I remember the days of playing Doom or Duke Nukem with people I knew and, for the first time, did not know. Trash talk has always been around.
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#48 May 25 2013 at 8:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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OK, I believe Ostia and I have reached a back channel accord of sorts. He understands where we are coming from now, and I've offered to personally oversee any concerns he has that he is being treated differently than others just to have a second pair of Admin eyes on it if he wants per the forum rules. So no bannings tonight. Sorry.

Instead, Wint is going to attempt to juggle 14 hyperactive tree sloths, setting a new world record! Take it away Wint!

<sounds of sloths hitting the ground and screaming in the background>

Uhhh, look over there, a 3 headed monkey! /ninja vanish
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#49 May 25 2013 at 9:10 PM Rating: Good
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Speaking (typing) generally:

This thread reminds me of some of my coworkers and other stories I've heard.

The worker does something wrong (behaviorally); you give a warning to them and somehow they nod and say yes in the office, but they keep on doing the same old stuff outside the office. (Sometimes even bad mouthing the boss, whose office they just exited)

If I was ever put into a position where I was slacking off, or said something in bad taste, and a superior told me to knock it off, you'd better believe that I'd shape up right away. Some people they just don't get the hint that (in most jobs) they could get fired at the drop of a hat.

So it's just a bit surprising (or not) that mods have to do this. Hopefully the broader message is felt.

----

I usually don't care about bickering and drama, and usually there are only a couple of knuckleheads I try to ignore, but in the end I like this forum, and I love some of the more in depth discussions here, as I've been here on and off for the past 10 years.

Like others have stated I hope this doesn't have to happen again.


EDIT: This was awkwardly posted before I saw Kaolian's response, lol.


Edited, May 25th 2013 11:12pm by Kierk
#50 May 25 2013 at 10:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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If I were less lazy, I would dig up the same lecture I gave to Poubelle and stick Ostia's name on it. Fortunately, Ostia has never personally run afoul of me, though my opinion of him lately is the same. Hopefully that changes today? I also think Ostia brings some good notes to the discussion, but for me, no amount of blatantly juvenile disrespect is offset by sometimes having things to say about video games.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#51 May 25 2013 at 11:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
OK, I believe Ostia and I have reached a back channel accord of sorts. He understands where we are coming from now, and I've offered to personally oversee any concerns he has that he is being treated differently than others just to have a second pair of Admin eyes on it if he wants per the forum rules.


A note for you, Ostia, as this statement above has me inferring that you feel as if you're unnecessarily outcast.

A lot of us have been in this awkward "outside looking in" position. But it behooves us to take a moment in our time to attempt to relate to one another, rather than resent others because of this. This is where your habit of being contrary has harmed you in terms of reputation here. It is hard to relate to someone so eager to tell us our opinion is wrong compared to theirs, even to the point of arguing what is offensive.

Many of us have agreed with you in choice circumstances or, even in moments of disagreement, offered for you to clarify your stance in a non-aggressive manner. Please be sure to capitalize on these in the future. We realize you're a human being just like any of us. (Well, maybe not I. I'm most likely Khajiit. :3 )

You will likely have to face a lot of doubt as to your ability to change your conduct in the future. Precedence is against you in terms of making a turn around, meaning Zam's history more than simply a lack a faith in you personally. I for one hope that you become an exception to this, and am willing to do my part to help.

My PM inbox is open to you should you feel the need to vent about something rather than express it here in the forums and risk your membership. Note, I may try to provide feedback in response, however. But know that it is with the best intentions in trying to help you work out here in Zam. Having you become a more welcome member of the community is more preferable to losing you due to things not resolving here. So I'm willing to do my part.

Here's to a better future.


Edited, May 26th 2013 1:17am by Hyrist
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