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#52 May 28 2013 at 8:04 PM Rating: Excellent
BartelX wrote:
One of my favorite experiences in FFXI was when I camped Kreutzet for my Sirocco Kukri. After waiting approximately 9 hours without a pop, wind weather finally showed up and he spawned.

"Kreutzet pop! Need help ASAP!"

The only problem was, there were only 5 people on my LS at the time, and I think all but 1 were busy, and that 1 was at least a 20 minute trip away. So I did the only thing a solo thf could do... I solo'd, and I kited, and I solo'd some more.

Somehow, after close to an hour of near death, bloody bolt spam, running from triple stormwinds, etc, I was able to beat him. To this day I don't know how I did it. I know for a fact I zoned him once and was incredibly lucky that he didn't despawn on me.

By the time the hour was up, about 4 people from the LS had logged on and come to watch. I asked them not to help unless I was clearly going to die, and even then to only claim it and raise me so I could finish my task. I never died, I never needed the assistance, and I got my prize. It was one of those moments in gaming where you just put your controller down (playing on PS2 at the time with no windower, plugins, etc) and smile. It was truly an amazing feeling. I hope to be able to achieve that again in ARR.


Nice! When me and my buddy held Charby he tanked as I healed. He was THF and went all evasion. I was DNC, which worked great because even when I pulled hate I had the evasion to not get clobbered too often and when I did I could heal myself Smiley: nod Took about 12 minutes for the person we were holding Charby for to arrive and he took over tanking (PLD) and about 5 minutes after that our RNG and DRG arrived. From there it was a quick beating and a Joyuese Smiley: grin My buddy still says that was one of the great moments of his THF career. Come to think of it I helped him camp Kreutzet too. We had a party of 4 so not a hard battle. That you soloed him is just downright impressive Smiley: nod
#53 May 28 2013 at 8:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's the reason I loved thf so much. It wasn't like rdm where you could just kite endlessly and beat pretty much anything. I respect the heck out of what rdm's like Avesta could do, but I realized thf would never be able to do that. Instead, I just focused on getting the most out of my thf and soloing anything I could conceivably solo. That included Kreutzet, Aquarius, Zoraal Ja, Charybdis (tho I had LS help for it about halfway through), Serket, Ose, and many others. It's the reason I really want to see thief in ARR so badly. The entire idea of an evasion tank equipped only with melee/ranged weapons that could still completely control a fight always fascinated me.

I don't think I ever left a city without a full compliment of acid, blind, bloody, and sleep bolts. Nothing gave me quite the thrill as landing that sleep bolt on a highly resistant NM, running up behind it and SA>DE for huge damage. The tactical brilliance of thf in FFXI has never been rivaled by any other class in any other game I've played.

Edited, May 28th 2013 10:18pm by BartelX
#54 May 28 2013 at 8:24 PM Rating: Excellent
It's the same reason I want to see DNC or a DNC like job. I loved being a front line healer/support guy. Granted, I didn't do damage for s!@# but I did take a lot of killing Smiley: grin
#55 May 28 2013 at 8:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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That's what I liked about FFXI and would like to see in FFXIV: challenging solo content.

Now, the irony is that since FFXI was primarily a group game, solo play wasn't catered to, and hence soloing took skill that wasn't really planed by the devs.

Soloing was inefficient but challenging and fun. This also had to do with the psychology behind being a loner, bucking the groups, and going off on one's own. Seeking challenges and trying to solo, the unsoloable. Kiting had a large part to do with it, but there were other chalenges like using pets (like my DRG) to solo AF, or even soloing content like chests, or other quests that went a lot more smoothly with a group.

No other game (that I played) really had that level of challenge. Sure WoW had elites you could try to solo, but I just don't remember any equal.

---

The thrill that you speak of only really came (in games like WoW) from PvP. FFXI was one of the only games where I got a thrill from PvE.

So, I hope that there is some leeway, or ways to solo harder content if I want. It will be inefficient, messy and I might die a lot, but it should be really fun.
#56 May 28 2013 at 8:47 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
One of my favorite experiences in FFXI was when I camped Kreutzet for my Sirocco Kukri. After waiting approximately 9 hours without a pop, wind weather finally showed up and he spawned.

"Kreutzet pop! Need help ASAP!"

The only problem was, there were only 5 people on my LS at the time, and I think all but 1 were busy, and that 1 was at least a 20 minute trip away. So I did the only thing a solo thf could do... I solo'd, and I kited, and I solo'd some more.

Somehow, after close to an hour of near death, bloody bolt spam, running from triple stormwinds, etc, I was able to beat him. To this day I don't know how I did it. I know for a fact I zoned him once and was incredibly lucky that he didn't despawn on me.

By the time the hour was up, about 4 people from the LS had logged on and come to watch. I asked them not to help unless I was clearly going to die, and even then to only claim it and raise me so I could finish my task. I never died, I never needed the assistance, and I got my prize. It was one of those moments in gaming where you just put your controller down (playing on PS2 at the time with no windower, plugins, etc) and smile. It was truly an amazing feeling. I hope to be able to achieve that again in ARR.


Kierk already kind of touched on this, but since most of the battles in FFXIV will be balanced with the intent that they can be solod (or they will be entirely instanced) it's unlikely there will be many battles that are a challenge to solo and actually offer some meaningful reward.

Which has always been a problem with SE in MMOs. They never seemed to know how to connect real challenge with appropriate rewards. Hopefully this time it will be different.
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#57 May 28 2013 at 8:49 PM Rating: Excellent
Soloing was definitely an art form. Some classes were built for it but some people just took it and ran with it. I do not miss fighting EXP parties for mobs though.
#58 May 28 2013 at 8:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Maybe taking leves and setting them at a higher difficulty rating?

As an RDM I absolutely loved soloing. Pots and tons in pso ja. Elementals an marlboros in the jungle. My greatest accomplishment though was the black dragon in the glacier. I think I was only like level 40 or something. And I never leveled past 65 period and still filled up my endless hours of play time. That's what I'd like I guess. A place I can really lose myself in.
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#59 May 28 2013 at 9:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Which has always been a problem with SE in MMOs. They never seemed to know how to connect real challenge with appropriate rewards. Hopefully this time it will be different.


Ugh, I realize that this will now be several threads where we're in disagreement, so please don't take this the wrong way and assume I've got it out for you... I really don't. I just happen to disagree.

I think they definitely had appropriate rewards for those willing to risk the challenge. At the time, the Sirocco Kukri from Kreutzet was far and away the best offhand dagger for thf in probably 95% of situations. Getting it was a pain in the ****, and doing it solo was even tougher, but the reward as absolutely worth the time invested.

Same thing for many other pieces of gear that were soloable, such as joyeuse, assault jerkin, leaping boots, emperor's hairpin, ochimusha kote, alkyoneus bracelets, etc... The gratification of finally getting said item was absolutely worth the time investment and challenge in most cases. I realize some of what I mentioned wasn't a challenge once you were max level, but getting the items at the level they were useful absolutely was, and it was still definitely worth the effort.
#60 May 29 2013 at 12:02 AM Rating: Good
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SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
Soloing was definitely an art form. Some classes were built for it but some people just took it and ran with it. I do not miss fighting EXP parties for mobs though.


Soloing was rough.. until I discovered DRG/WHM

I like that FFXIV will be primarily group based. Too many MMOs water down the content to the point where 90% of the game is soloable, which defeats the purpose of an MMO. Might as well play a single player game at that point. However there should definitely be some solo content. Class quests/challenges/special fights, etc.

Edited, May 29th 2013 2:04am by BrokenFox
#61 May 29 2013 at 12:35 AM Rating: Excellent
BrokenFox wrote:
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
Soloing was definitely an art form. Some classes were built for it but some people just took it and ran with it. I do not miss fighting EXP parties for mobs though.


Soloing was rough.. until I discovered DRG/WHM

I like that FFXIV will be primarily group based. Too many MMOs water down the content to the point where 90% of the game is soloable, which defeats the purpose of an MMO. Might as well play a single player game at that point. However there should definitely be some solo content. Class quests/challenges/special fights, etc.

Edited, May 29th 2013 2:04am by BrokenFox


Some classes were definitely built for it. As a DNC the only problem I really had were links, and if you solo you know you solo near a zone if possible. It was slow as all **** as I didn't do any real damage, still a ton of fun though.
#62 May 29 2013 at 4:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kind of random, but I think it might be interesting to see something like a tabard or cape for Companies. Other MMOs have such things that allow you to distinguish your group from another and I think it would be nice to see in FFXIV. I know you can make a unique Linkshell symbol, but having something extra would be awesome.
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#63 May 29 2013 at 7:24 AM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Which has always been a problem with SE in MMOs. They never seemed to know how to connect real challenge with appropriate rewards. Hopefully this time it will be different.


Ugh, I realize that this will now be several threads where we're in disagreement, so please don't take this the wrong way and assume I've got it out for you... I really don't. I just happen to disagree.

I think they definitely had appropriate rewards for those willing to risk the challenge. At the time, the Sirocco Kukri from Kreutzet was far and away the best offhand dagger for thf in probably 95% of situations. Getting it was a pain in the ****, and doing it solo was even tougher, but the reward as absolutely worth the time invested.

Same thing for many other pieces of gear that were soloable, such as joyeuse, assault jerkin, leaping boots, emperor's hairpin, ochimusha kote, alkyoneus bracelets, etc... The gratification of finally getting said item was absolutely worth the time investment and challenge in most cases. I realize some of what I mentioned wasn't a challenge once you were max level, but getting the items at the level they were useful absolutely was, and it was still definitely worth the effort.


I suppose that depends on how much of the challenge comes from the battle compared to the challenge of claiming the mob against competition. Most of it was from the latter. I do not consider that challenge, personally.

There were many, if not most, well-designed encounters that most players never even took notice of because there was no feedback loop in the form of a fair reward. Conversely, there were times when excellent items would all but drop from the sky.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#64 May 29 2013 at 7:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Most of the battles I mentioned, the challenge was in the fight, not in the camping of them. At least it was if you fought them at the level the gear was intended for, which I did. Valkurm Emperor fought on-level was a super tough fight. So was Leaping Lizzy at level 9-10. Before the items went Rare/Ex, I know what you mean about the competition for claim being more than the challenge, which is why they eventually changed them. A couple months after the change, there was almost never competition for them except from people passing through or maybe 1 other person trying to get the gear for their lowbie.

Also, a lot of those other well-designed encounters you speak of were very easy to obtain information for if you actually looked on sites like this or ffxi wiki. Almost all of them had many strategy guides to them. I know because I spent countless hours doing ENMs, BCNMs, KSNMs, etc back in the day. There were a plethora of unique battles if you knew where to look. I'm actually glad SE didn't hold our hands for it and explain everything out exactly. They left a lot up to the player to figure out, and I really enjoyed that aspect of the game.
#65 May 29 2013 at 7:57 AM Rating: Good
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I really only want support classes/jobs outside of what is on the list. I miss those classes, which admittedly are a pain in the **** to balance and design in a "class" style game, but could be worked in fairly easily where one character could be anything and everything, as long as it's done well. I miss classes that are the difference between getting utterly destroyed and killing a boss with ease for non-obvious reasons (take the hits, heal the hits, or just hit).
#66 May 29 2013 at 8:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Also, a lot of those other well-designed encounters you speak of were very easy to obtain information for if you actually looked on sites like this or ffxi wiki. Almost all of them had many strategy guides to them. I know because I spent countless hours doing ENMs, BCNMs, KSNMs, etc back in the day. There were a plethora of unique battles if you knew where to look. I'm actually glad SE didn't hold our hands for it and explain everything out exactly. They left a lot up to the player to figure out, and I really enjoyed that aspect of the game.


I'm not sure what point you're trying to make about the availability of information. That's pretty much a given for most encounters in an MMO, isn't it? I agree: there were a plethora of unique, fun, interesting battles. And SE did a very poor job of giving players a reason to use them. Perhaps you found that aspect of it fun, but realistically, most people aren't going to throw away hard-earned seals just so they can experience a different fight (which they'll likely lose without reading up on beforehand and an ideal configuration). They're going to do the tried and true one that will get them the cash or the drop that they need for goal fulfillment.

So in that regard, SE wasted a ton of good design work by not incentivizing it properly.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#67 May 29 2013 at 8:48 AM Rating: Good
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Funny, considering there were entire LS's devoted to doing different ENM, KSNM, BCNM, etc. Not to mention, many of the encounters were quite beatable, quite enjoyable, and actually DID offer great rewards. For instance, did you realize that there were 8 different ENM battles were you could get scrolls of erase, utsu: ni, raise III, etc? Or that there were BCNM30, 40, 50, 60 that were all incredibly profitable and fun to boot? Perhaps it's just that you didn't look into them enough more than that it wasn't incentivized properly. Yes, there were fights where the rewards sucked. I'm not discounting that notion. But there were plenty more where the rewards were totally worth the time investment, and the strategy element to them was the icing on the cake.

Pretty much every time we went to do one of those out of the way KSNM's in Attowha Chasm, or an ENM in Beaucidine Glacier there were other groups there doing the same, so clearly there were enough people that knew of them and that they were good fun and good profit. Most of the money I made in XI was from stuff like this.

Edited, May 29th 2013 10:51am by BartelX
#68 May 29 2013 at 8:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah... I just solo'd a KS30 and got a scroll of Raise III. Still worth a million gil. (I used it on my second account, he needed it.)
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#69 May 29 2013 at 9:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
Funny, considering there were entire LS's devoted to doing different ENM, KSNM, BCNM, etc. Not to mention, many of the encounters were quite beatable, quite enjoyable, and actually DID offer great rewards. For instance, did you realize that there were 8 different ENM battles were you could get scrolls of erase, utsu: ni, raise III, etc? Or that there were BCNM30, 40, 50, 60 that were all incredibly profitable and fun to boot? Perhaps it's just that you didn't look into them enough more than that it wasn't incentivized properly. Yes, there were fights where the rewards sucked. I'm not discounting that notion. But there were plenty more where the rewards were totally worth the time investment, and the strategy element to them was the icing on the cake.

Pretty much every time we went to do one of those out of the way KSNM's in Attowha Chasm, or an ENM in Beaucidine Glacier there were other groups there doing the same, so clearly there were enough people that knew of them and that they were good fun and good profit. Most of the money I made in XI was from stuff like this.

Edited, May 29th 2013 10:51am by BartelX


When we first started XI, we used to spam the **** out of BCNM 20 Charming Trio because of the 100% drop mannequin hands that sold for 500k a pop. I hardly saw anyone ever doing this and people would ask me how I got them. **** NO I didn't tell them!

Even as recent as 3 years ago I was still selling them for 200k...

We also used to do Under Observation for Peacock Charm. What's funny now, PCC is only 350k on the AH while the scroll PHalanx, which we got soooo many times is up to 1.9-2.5 mil..... oh god I sold so many for so cheap..
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#70 May 29 2013 at 10:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Funny, considering there were entire LS's devoted to doing different ENM, KSNM, BCNM, etc. Not to mention, many of the encounters were quite beatable, quite enjoyable, and actually DID offer great rewards. For instance, did you realize that there were 8 different ENM battles were you could get scrolls of erase, utsu: ni, raise III, etc? Or that there were BCNM30, 40, 50, 60 that were all incredibly profitable and fun to boot? Perhaps it's just that you didn't look into them enough more than that it wasn't incentivized properly. Yes, there were fights where the rewards sucked. I'm not discounting that notion. But there were plenty more where the rewards were totally worth the time investment, and the strategy element to them was the icing on the cake.

Pretty much every time we went to do one of those out of the way KSNM's in Attowha Chasm, or an ENM in Beaucidine Glacier there were other groups there doing the same, so clearly there were enough people that knew of them and that they were good fun and good profit. Most of the money I made in XI was from stuff like this.

Edited, May 29th 2013 10:51am by BartelX


When we first started XI, we used to spam the **** out of BCNM 20 Charming Trio because of the 100% drop mannequin hands that sold for 500k a pop. I hardly saw anyone ever doing this and people would ask me how I got them. **** NO I didn't tell them!

Even as recent as 3 years ago I was still selling them for 200k...

We also used to do Under Observation for Peacock Charm. What's funny now, PCC is only 350k on the AH while the scroll PHalanx, which we got soooo many times is up to 1.9-2.5 mil..... oh god I sold so many for so cheap..



Under observation!!! The HORROR THE HORRRROOORRRRRRR! Petrogaze! NOOOOOOO!

I can't tell you how many times my brother and I fought those **** gelatinous blobs. Stupid petrification.

Then... when we finallllly got peacock charm, my brother rolls 920 or something like that (YAH we won!), and the random third guy in our party rolls a 989 (fail!).



Edited, May 29th 2013 12:08pm by Parathyroid
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#71 May 29 2013 at 10:05 AM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Funny, considering there were entire LS's devoted to doing different ENM, KSNM, BCNM, etc. Not to mention, many of the encounters were quite beatable, quite enjoyable, and actually DID offer great rewards. For instance, did you realize that there were 8 different ENM battles were you could get scrolls of erase, utsu: ni, raise III, etc? Or that there were BCNM30, 40, 50, 60 that were all incredibly profitable and fun to boot? Perhaps it's just that you didn't look into them enough more than that it wasn't incentivized properly. Yes, there were fights where the rewards sucked. I'm not discounting that notion. But there were plenty more where the rewards were totally worth the time investment, and the strategy element to them was the icing on the cake.

Pretty much every time we went to do one of those out of the way KSNM's in Attowha Chasm, or an ENM in Beaucidine Glacier there were other groups there doing the same, so clearly there were enough people that knew of them and that they were good fun and good profit. Most of the money I made in XI was from stuff like this.

Edited, May 29th 2013 10:51am by BartelX


When we first started XI, we used to spam the **** out of BCNM 20 Charming Trio because of the 100% drop mannequin hands that sold for 500k a pop. I hardly saw anyone ever doing this and people would ask me how I got them. **** NO I didn't tell them!

Even as recent as 3 years ago I was still selling them for 200k...

We also used to do Under Observation for Peacock Charm. What's funny now, PCC is only 350k on the AH while the scroll PHalanx, which we got soooo many times is up to 1.9-2.5 mil..... oh god I sold so many for so cheap..


We did BCNM40 Royal Jellies a lot because it could be duo'd with the right combo (good DD + rdm) and it dropped archer's rings quite often. We also did Under Observation for PCC, but never got one in like 10 tries. That one was also duoable, which was fun. Our favorite ENM's were Sheep in Antlion's clothing for the chance at a Hagun. There was also one in Uleguerand Range, I can't remember the name, but it was against those true sight things from the promyvions. We used to duo it on sam and rdm. Very fun fight, required a fair amount of kiting but was easily winnable. Getting there was a bit of a chore however.
#72 May 29 2013 at 10:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Getting there has been solved now. NPC in Lower Jeuno warps you straight to BC fights once you've completed the 95 limit break battle. For the low low price of 1K gil!
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#73 May 29 2013 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
Getting there has been solved now. NPC in Lower Jeuno warps you straight to BC fights once you've completed the 95 limit break battle. For the low low price of 1K gil!


This addition made me happy when I returned.


I used to Duo Royal Jellies as Drg/Blu X2 as well, but since we had 3 of us to do U/O, we tended to do that one more with Blu, Blu, and Whm kiting. Never petrified when you can just cast spells looking away!
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#74 May 29 2013 at 10:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
Getting there has been solved now. NPC in Lower Jeuno warps you straight to BC fights once you've completed the 95 limit break battle. For the low low price of 1K gil!


Smiley: jawdrop
#75 May 29 2013 at 12:52 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Funny, considering there were entire LS's devoted to doing different ENM, KSNM, BCNM, etc. Not to mention, many of the encounters were quite beatable, quite enjoyable, and actually DID offer great rewards. For instance, did you realize that there were 8 different ENM battles were you could get scrolls of erase, utsu: ni, raise III, etc? Or that there were BCNM30, 40, 50, 60 that were all incredibly profitable and fun to boot? Perhaps it's just that you didn't look into them enough more than that it wasn't incentivized properly. Yes, there were fights where the rewards sucked. I'm not discounting that notion. But there were plenty more where the rewards were totally worth the time investment, and the strategy element to them was the icing on the cake.

Pretty much every time we went to do one of those out of the way KSNM's in Attowha Chasm, or an ENM in Beaucidine Glacier there were other groups there doing the same, so clearly there were enough people that knew of them and that they were good fun and good profit. Most of the money I made in XI was from stuff like this.

Edited, May 29th 2013 10:51am by BartelX


I was very familiar with them. Couldn't find many people willing to do them because most people wanted to do the most profitable ones--understandably. Observe.

Louiscool wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Funny, considering there were entire LS's devoted to doing different ENM, KSNM, BCNM, etc. Not to mention, many of the encounters were quite beatable, quite enjoyable, and actually DID offer great rewards. For instance, did you realize that there were 8 different ENM battles were you could get scrolls of erase, utsu: ni, raise III, etc? Or that there were BCNM30, 40, 50, 60 that were all incredibly profitable and fun to boot? Perhaps it's just that you didn't look into them enough more than that it wasn't incentivized properly. Yes, there were fights where the rewards sucked. I'm not discounting that notion. But there were plenty more where the rewards were totally worth the time investment, and the strategy element to them was the icing on the cake.

Pretty much every time we went to do one of those out of the way KSNM's in Attowha Chasm, or an ENM in Beaucidine Glacier there were other groups there doing the same, so clearly there were enough people that knew of them and that they were good fun and good profit. Most of the money I made in XI was from stuff like this.

Edited, May 29th 2013 10:51am by BartelX


When we first started XI, we used to spam the **** out of BCNM 20 Charming Trio because of the 100% drop mannequin hands that sold for 500k a pop. I hardly saw anyone ever doing this and people would ask me how I got them. **** NO I didn't tell them!

Even as recent as 3 years ago I was still selling them for 200k...

We also used to do Under Observation for Peacock Charm. What's funny now, PCC is only 350k on the AH while the scroll PHalanx, which we got soooo many times is up to 1.9-2.5 mil..... oh god I sold so many for so cheap..


Louis here notes that they did these 2 BCNM a lot, because of the drops and money (which, btw, is very consistent with how most people I have talked to spent their seals). So clearly SE failed to encourage him to utilize the diversity of all the BCNM/KSNM that they designed.

BartelX wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Funny, considering there were entire LS's devoted to doing different ENM, KSNM, BCNM, etc. Not to mention, many of the encounters were quite beatable, quite enjoyable, and actually DID offer great rewards. For instance, did you realize that there were 8 different ENM battles were you could get scrolls of erase, utsu: ni, raise III, etc? Or that there were BCNM30, 40, 50, 60 that were all incredibly profitable and fun to boot? Perhaps it's just that you didn't look into them enough more than that it wasn't incentivized properly. Yes, there were fights where the rewards sucked. I'm not discounting that notion. But there were plenty more where the rewards were totally worth the time investment, and the strategy element to them was the icing on the cake.

Pretty much every time we went to do one of those out of the way KSNM's in Attowha Chasm, or an ENM in Beaucidine Glacier there were other groups there doing the same, so clearly there were enough people that knew of them and that they were good fun and good profit. Most of the money I made in XI was from stuff like this.

Edited, May 29th 2013 10:51am by BartelX


When we first started XI, we used to spam the **** out of BCNM 20 Charming Trio because of the 100% drop mannequin hands that sold for 500k a pop. I hardly saw anyone ever doing this and people would ask me how I got them. **** NO I didn't tell them!

Even as recent as 3 years ago I was still selling them for 200k...

We also used to do Under Observation for Peacock Charm. What's funny now, PCC is only 350k on the AH while the scroll PHalanx, which we got soooo many times is up to 1.9-2.5 mil..... oh god I sold so many for so cheap..


We did BCNM40 Royal Jellies a lot because it could be duo'd with the right combo (good DD + rdm) and it dropped archer's rings quite often. We also did Under Observation for PCC, but never got one in like 10 tries. That one was also duoable, which was fun. Our favorite ENM's were Sheep in Antlion's clothing for the chance at a Hagun. There was also one in Uleguerand Range, I can't remember the name, but it was against those true sight things from the promyvions. We used to duo it on sam and rdm. Very fun fight, required a fair amount of kiting but was easily winnable. Getting there was a bit of a chore however.


And it seems you ALSO repeated a lot of the BCNMs for loot. And Sheep in Antlion's clothing was one of the most popular ENMs because of the Hagun.

ENMs were better in general, I'll grant you, but overall this supports my point exactly. Seals take many hours to acquire, and most players didn't spend them on a fun fight, but on the prospects of great rewards. As a result, most players didn't experience the majority of the BCNMs that SE designed. And when you're designing content but aren't successfully getting players to use it, that is the definition of a design failure.
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#76 May 29 2013 at 1:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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And don't forget that new players had no idea what the seals were for, and were pitching them like crazy for months on end. Terrible design.

And what about those "chips" and the "mysterious device" that wanted a password. Did the password ever exist?

I think they should have made the BCNM's more difficult and made the drop a reward for completing the content. I did the worms and the jellies several times and got real tired of burning my seals for iron ingots and a few gil.. GAH!
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#77 May 29 2013 at 1:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Louis here notes that they did these 2 BCNM a lot, because of the drops and money (which, btw, is very consistent with how most people I have talked to spent their seals). So clearly SE failed to encourage him to utilize the diversity of all the BCNM/KSNM that they designed.


I'll also add, we did the ones that were the easiest for us, with our job pool, that had the greatest profit.

We also did hagun runs every time they were available :D

It wasn't worth wasting seals at a chance of failure, when we had proven success on others.
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#78 May 29 2013 at 1:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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LebargeX wrote:
And what about those "chips" and the "mysterious device" that wanted a password. Did the password ever exist?


Yeah that was cracked a few years ago.
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#79 May 29 2013 at 1:46 PM Rating: Good
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Well, I thoroughly enjoyed all the BCNM style battles, and I probably did just about all of them. So what if the majority didn't? So what if some of them were itemized better than others? That's the nature of an mmo. Are you trying to tell me there aren't other games out there with non-optimized content? I mean, every single raid pre-endgame in WoW is outdated and contains gear that can be trumped by green items of a similar level. It doesn't stop people from doing them or enjoying them. I was in a progression guild in WoW and had a blast doing the old raids, even though the gear in them was pointless. It was for the fun and challenge, much like many of the encounters in XI. There were also many encounters in XI that DID offer great rewards if that's what you were looking for, as Louis, Catwho, and myself have pointed out.

There were people that did all of the battles in XI, and people that enjoyed all of them. You can call them design flaws, I think of them more like easter eggs. It's not like creating a battle inside a pre-designed arena against 1-6 mobs was all that time consuming. And if even a few people did them, which more than a few definitely have over the years, I'd say that's not content wasted. Not everything has to be this uber efficient content that everyone has to attempt and drop equally good loot to make it successful... at least, not to me.



Edited, May 29th 2013 3:47pm by BartelX
#80 May 29 2013 at 2:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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LebargeX wrote:
And don't forget that new players had no idea what the seals were for, and were pitching them like crazy for months on end. Terrible design.

And what about those "chips" and the "mysterious device" that wanted a password. Did the password ever exist?

I think they should have made the BCNM's more difficult and made the drop a reward for completing the content. I did the worms and the jellies several times and got real tired of burning my seals for iron ingots and a few gil.. GAH!


Which is exactly why I saved every beastmen coin I found in xiv. I had stacks of them by the relic quest came out and didn't need to farm them. The drop rate on them weren't as bad as FFXI though.
#81 May 29 2013 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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You can call them design flaws,


I'm going to agree with the general sentiment Kachi is getting at here:

It's wasted content, when it would be better if there was more incentive to take risks and try new things. Of course players in an MMO will ALWAYS take the path of least resistance. Every. Single. Time.

But if every BCNM had a worthwhile drop, and wasn't currency based to challenge? for example, the ENMs has time lockouts, so they were more popular. You could have an ENM ls and do a few on a scheduled day, whereas you would have to make your members farm seals for other BCs.

The design of the BC fights was poor, not the fights themselves. That's also, probably, why they didn't keep adding them and changed to ENMs and VNMs and other tiered progression fights. The content they added post-Aht Urghan was far more engaging and fun, IMO.
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#82 May 29 2013 at 2:22 PM Rating: Good
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To each his or her own I guess. I enjoyed them, even the ones that didn't have great drops. But then again, I had like 40 stacks of beastman seals from soloing so I was never short on them. So I'm probably not a good example of the average player in those terms. Like I said, I was a bit of a gaming hermit back in my FFXI days. Smiley: lol
#83 May 29 2013 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
Well, I thoroughly enjoyed all the BCNM style battles, and I probably did just about all of them. So what if the majority didn't? So what if some of them were itemized better than others? That's the nature of an mmo. Are you trying to tell me there aren't other games out there with non-optimized content? I mean, every single raid pre-endgame in WoW is outdated and contains gear that can be trumped by green items of a similar level. It doesn't stop people from doing them or enjoying them. I was in a progression guild in WoW and had a blast doing the old raids, even though the gear in them was pointless. It was for the fun and challenge, much like many of the encounters in XI. There were also many encounters in XI that DID offer great rewards if that's what you were looking for, as Louis, Catwho, and myself have pointed out.

There were people that did all of the battles in XI, and people that enjoyed all of them. You can call them design flaws, I think of them more like easter eggs. It's not like creating a battle inside a pre-designed arena against 1-6 mobs was all that time consuming. And if even a few people did them, which more than a few definitely have over the years, I'd say that's not content wasted. Not everything has to be this uber efficient content that everyone has to attempt and drop equally good loot to make it successful... at least, not to me.



Edited, May 29th 2013 3:47pm by BartelX


You ask, "So what?" and I think the answer should be clear. "So, players missed out on lots of fun content that took a lot of time to develop." When you're in the business of making players have the most fun possible, that's bad design. And I'll be the last one to tell you that other games don't have similar problems, but FFXI had some really egregious examples that were easy to fix... but never fixed. FFXI could have been THE titan of MMORPGs today with just a couple of relatively simple updates to change some numbers around on the backend.

Also, you're underestimating the development time that goes into creating the BCNMs. But anyway, the larger point being that SE created a lot of content (honestly, probably close to half of it when you consider quests, missions, instances, NMs, etc.) that the majority of players never bothered with because they had no good reason to. INSTEAD(!) they repeated the same content over and over and over because they were trying to get those high-value items with stingy drop rates! Now, if that's not poor resource management and design, I honestly don't know what is. It's so easy to fix, the community complained about it incessantly, and most of them left precisely for that reason.

I'm glad you enjoyed FFXI. I had a lot of fond memories from it, too. But it's not hard to see how it could have been so much more than it was.
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#84 May 29 2013 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
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1.Awesome combat and yes it can be done in conjunction with a GCD.(Taking into account this is a tab target combat system)
-A skill/momentum modifier feature applied to each hotkey:
Single Target Dmg- Tap button= High accuracy/lower power, longer you hold button the lower accuracy/high power it becomes.
AoE Dmg- Tap button= Low Radius/high power, longer you hold button before releasing the wider the radius/lower power.
Conal Dmg- Tap Button= Small cone/high Power, longer you hold button before releasing the wider the cone/lower power.
Enspells Dmg- Tap= Short duration/high dmg, longer you hold button the longer duration/lower dmg.
Debuffs- Tap= Short duration/high potency, longer you hold button the longer duration/low potency.

You might look at this and say a charge button? It's not a charge feature where the only choice is hold for best effect or tap if you opt for normal attack dps to be your damage. There is a range of choices depending on the situation and one option is not inherently better. This can be applied to defensive skills properties too.

-Combo System
Kachi this feature actually makes combat more tactile if done right. If there was no GCD you could spam whatever granted you have tp/mp which encourages spamming smaller rotations. The combo system in conjunction with GCD, if resources were balanced right forces you to pick and choose when to spam consecutive high power fast attacks. I know they altered positional requirements on combos. But every skill should have positional awareness activate a small effect on efficiency.

-Decaying skill potency
All this does is complement the GCD and combo system. Basically the more you use any skill on an enemy. The lower potency/accuracy that skill will affect that enemy. It decays at a steady rate.

-Restore incapacitation
I cannot stress how requiring breaking something unique on an enemy adds to variety. Take into account that decaying skill potency and it forces players to maybe hesitate coming out with the big guns at stupid times if they want to be most efficient. And do not make the required incapacitations only take place at the beginning. Have them spread out and inserted at pivotal moments during the battle.

-Job/Class play style or fundamental differentiation
I don't mean carbon copy XI. But alter the fundamentals of how jobs/classes play as in XI. Samurai were the masters of tp manipulation. Up until Sekkanoki was introduced. It played drastically different from other jobs. I'm at a loss for words how to convey what I mean. I am currently playing TERA and I love the free target, but fundamentally most damage classes at the core, play almost identical in their manipulation or scheme mechanics.

All the rest involves enemy variety and counters vs your counters. But that is up to the devs if they want to push that out hard.

I did not list anything besides combat because to me, combat is the most important thing I want done right. And they can always get ideas from the community for content we want to see. But combat main mechanics are probably going to be done this last time and barely touched upon again.
#85 May 29 2013 at 5:11 PM Rating: Decent
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At first glance, all strike me as good ways to deepen combat. There might be better approaches or a better combination of approaches, but I've suggested several of those things myself (some of them directly to SE).
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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

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#86 May 29 2013 at 5:12 PM Rating: Good
I would also like to see large epic battles like Besieged or tower assault/defense in campaign when you had a lot of people participating. Laggy as all **** but a ton of fun.
#87 May 29 2013 at 5:21 PM Rating: Decent
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SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
I would also like to see large epic battles like Besieged or tower assault/defense in campaign when you had a lot of people participating. Laggy as all **** but a ton of fun.


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#88 May 29 2013 at 5:25 PM Rating: Good
electromagnet83 wrote:
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
I would also like to see large epic battles like Besieged or tower assault/defense in campaign when you had a lot of people participating. Laggy as all **** but a ton of fun.


F.A.T.E.


True. I was thinking more along the lines of Besieged, where you could be sitting at the Adventurer's Guild in Ul'dah when a call to defend the gates goes out and everyone has to rush out and help...unless there will be FATEs like that, in which casse awesome!
#89 May 29 2013 at 5:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Better Classes, More defined Roles, A huge upgrade in story line, originality, a deeper combat system, and a balanced strike between XI group mechanics and wow styled pick up approach to leveling.
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#90 May 29 2013 at 5:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
I would also like to see large epic battles like Besieged or tower assault/defense in campaign when you had a lot of people participating. Laggy as all **** but a ton of fun.


F.A.T.E.


True. I was thinking more along the lines of Besieged, where you could be sitting at the Adventurer's Guild in Ul'dah when a call to defend the gates goes out and everyone has to rush out and help...unless there will be FATEs like that, in which casse awesome!


Then you'll be happy I think Smiley: wink
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#91 May 29 2013 at 5:33 PM Rating: Good
Wint wrote:
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
I would also like to see large epic battles like Besieged or tower assault/defense in campaign when you had a lot of people participating. Laggy as all **** but a ton of fun.


F.A.T.E.


True. I was thinking more along the lines of Besieged, where you could be sitting at the Adventurer's Guild in Ul'dah when a call to defend the gates goes out and everyone has to rush out and help...unless there will be FATEs like that, in which casse awesome!


Then you'll be happy I think Smiley: wink


Smiley: grin

Edited, May 29th 2013 4:34pm by SkinwalkerAsura
#92 May 29 2013 at 6:08 PM Rating: Decent
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SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
Wint wrote:
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
I would also like to see large epic battles like Besieged or tower assault/defense in campaign when you had a lot of people participating. Laggy as all **** but a ton of fun.


F.A.T.E.


True. I was thinking more along the lines of Besieged, where you could be sitting at the Adventurer's Guild in Ul'dah when a call to defend the gates goes out and everyone has to rush out and help...unless there will be FATEs like that, in which casse awesome!


Then you'll be happy I think Smiley: wink


Smiley: grin

Edited, May 29th 2013 4:34pm by SkinwalkerAsura


Smiley: nod
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#93 May 29 2013 at 8:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
FFXI could have been THE titan of MMORPGs today with just a couple of relatively simple updates to change some numbers around on the backend.

Also, you're underestimating the development time that goes into creating the BCNMs.


These two statements seem to be incredibly contradictory. On the one hand, you're saying FFXI could have been the mmo goliath with a couple quick number swaps on the backend... but somehow making simple BCNM battles is considerably more complex? What's so complex about programming a single battle of monster behavior when compared to basically revamping the game to make it more user friendly? Coming from a moderate coding background (trust me, I'm no expert), I'd say it's FAR easier to whip up a few BCNM style battles than it would be to reconfigure the entire game to make it more user-friendly and intuitive. Because really, those are the changes XI needed if it wanted to be on par with WoW.

Other than this statement, I do see your point about the content being a somewhat a waste of resources, considering some of it definitely wasn't balanced as well as it should have been.
#94 May 29 2013 at 9:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Lowering the required EXP to level up, is a rather easy tweak to do, designing engaging BCNM on the other hand is rather complicated.

Why do you think not every single company is able to pump out End game encounters off the quality that blizzard does ? Because making encounters, let alone entire raids, that take into consideration every class, abilities, item combo into equation to created a balanced yet engaging encounter is not as easy as padding numbers into HP/MP (What SE is known for)
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#95 May 29 2013 at 9:39 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Lowering the required EXP to level up, is a rather easy tweak to do, designing engaging BCNM on the other hand is rather complicated.


I don't think having less XP per level would have really made a huge difference in subs for FFXI; it certainly didn't when they finally did get around to decreasing it and even adding in stuff like the XP bonus rings. Some of it's biggest problems were the incredibly clunky UI, the overly aggressive nature of mobs (eventually fixed, but several years down the line), and the fairly steep learning curve and unforgiving nature of some of the low level content. I'm not sure any of those things would have been such an easy fix (for instance, the UI is still incredibly archaic), especially considering they had to change it for two separate platforms.
#96 May 29 2013 at 10:12 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Lowering the required EXP to level up, is a rather easy tweak to do, designing engaging BCNM on the other hand is rather complicated.


I don't think having less XP per level would have really made a huge difference in subs for FFXI; it certainly didn't when they finally did get around to decreasing it and even adding in stuff like the XP bonus rings. Some of it's biggest problems were the incredibly clunky UI, the overly aggressive nature of mobs (eventually fixed, but several years down the line), and the fairly steep learning curve and unforgiving nature of some of the low level content. I'm not sure any of those things would have been such an easy fix (for instance, the UI is still incredibly archaic), especially considering they had to change it for two separate platforms.


By the time they got to it, it was not even late, by that time, they where not even in the Radar. Would a lower XP curve helped ? Sure! The less time we had to spend in dunes spamming stuff mindlessly killing crabs would have been reduced Drastically! They dint need to remove the aggressive nature of mobs nor the aggro, but they could have lowered the HP of low level zones, just like they buffed the entire world in XIV.
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#97 May 29 2013 at 10:26 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
FFXI could have been THE titan of MMORPGs today with just a couple of relatively simple updates to change some numbers around on the backend.

Also, you're underestimating the development time that goes into creating the BCNMs.


These two statements seem to be incredibly contradictory. On the one hand, you're saying FFXI could have been the mmo goliath with a couple quick number swaps on the backend... but somehow making simple BCNM battles is considerably more complex? What's so complex about programming a single battle of monster behavior when compared to basically revamping the game to make it more user friendly? Coming from a moderate coding background (trust me, I'm no expert), I'd say it's FAR easier to whip up a few BCNM style battles than it would be to reconfigure the entire game to make it more user-friendly and intuitive. Because really, those are the changes XI needed if it wanted to be on par with WoW.

Other than this statement, I do see your point about the content being a somewhat a waste of resources, considering some of it definitely wasn't balanced as well as it should have been.


It's a matter of return on investment. Designing a few encounters involves pulling monsters with name changes, most of the time giving them special abilities, traits, stats, or scripts, interface and menu changes, loot tables, etc. The changes I'm talking about are literally just changes to numbers and algorithms, and they would impact the entire game experience for everyone, rather than providing a half hour or less of entertainment.

BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Lowering the required EXP to level up, is a rather easy tweak to do, designing engaging BCNM on the other hand is rather complicated.


I don't think having less XP per level would have really made a huge difference in subs for FFXI; it certainly didn't when they finally did get around to decreasing it and even adding in stuff like the XP bonus rings. Some of it's biggest problems were the incredibly clunky UI, the overly aggressive nature of mobs (eventually fixed, but several years down the line), and the fairly steep learning curve and unforgiving nature of some of the low level content. I'm not sure any of those things would have been such an easy fix (for instance, the UI is still incredibly archaic), especially considering they had to change it for two separate platforms.


Less XP tnl at the higher levels especially would have considerably increased player enjoyment--players could have experimented more with the vast number of classes in the game (20 now I think?) and been treated to a much wider array of playstyle experiences. But those aren't necessarily the numbers I'm talking about, either. The XP reward caps should have been set much higher to encourage players to take on much tougher monsters as a group. "Boss type" XP algorithms should have been fixed as well. I'll not go into great detail why for the umpteenth time, except to quickly say that it would have opened up a much wider variety of XP grounds, encouraged greater mobility, and provided challenge to players that wanted it while permitting the same experience for those who liked it the way it was. There were also a number of job skills and such that could have been easy fixes and were left alone for far too long.

In short, FFXI is a game with a ton of content that was poorly balanced and incentivized, and that crippled the game more than anything.
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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#98 May 30 2013 at 5:25 AM Rating: Good
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I don't think there's much point in arguing it anymore, so I'm just going to kindly disagree and drop it.
#99 May 30 2013 at 6:08 AM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Lowering the required EXP to level up, is a rather easy tweak to do, designing engaging BCNM on the other hand is rather complicated.

Why do you think not every single company is able to pump out End game encounters off the quality that blizzard does ? Because making encounters, let alone entire raids, that take into consideration every class, abilities, item combo into equation to created a balanced yet engaging encounter is not as easy as padding numbers into HP/MP (What SE is known for)


Did you play any of the content from 1.0? Like towards the end? I felt they did a great job of creating engaging content that wasn't merely padding HP numbers. (Particularly because the engine had a hard hp cap so they had to find creative ways to make enemies harder, lol)
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#100 May 31 2013 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Lowering the required EXP to level up, is a rather easy tweak to do, designing engaging BCNM on the other hand is rather complicated.

Why do you think not every single company is able to pump out End game encounters off the quality that blizzard does ? Because making encounters, let alone entire raids, that take into consideration every class, abilities, item combo into equation to created a balanced yet engaging encounter is not as easy as padding numbers into HP/MP (What SE is known for)


Did you play any of the content from 1.0? Like towards the end? I felt they did a great job of creating engaging content that wasn't merely padding HP numbers. (Particularly because the engine had a hard hp cap so they had to find creative ways to make enemies harder, lol)


First off the excuse of the engine is cheap... Come on! Second 3 encounters do not negate the fact that 99% of the encounters where tank & spank. Ifrit was an ok fight, nothing to be impressed with if you played wow, now is a step in the right direction which is good, but SE is an infant in making those fights, they are more known for having bosses with 45 phases, and 5 trillion HP. That was my point more or less louis XD
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#101 May 31 2013 at 11:20 AM Rating: Good
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45 phases? I think you're mis-counting by 42. The most I've seen in FFXIV's encounters were 3 in Garuda hard mode. (5 if you count Nael Van Darnus Hard Mode) I'm unsure how many phases Ifrit Extreme had. I think he Hellfires three times but that's it.
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