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With Rift going free to play...Follow

#1 May 27 2013 at 10:11 AM Rating: Sub-Default
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Are FFXI, WoW and FFXIV the ONLY sub based MMOs left now?
#2 May 27 2013 at 10:16 AM Rating: Good
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Is Eve still sub-based?
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#3 May 27 2013 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
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I have a friend who recently took a forced break of EVE as of a few months ago. As of them you could pay with real life money or in-game money, so I guess that could still be considered sub-based.

Did Everquest 1/2 go free to play?
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#4 May 27 2013 at 10:26 AM Rating: Default
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EQ1 died a few montsh ago and i believe EQ2 has been F2P for a LLONNGG time now
#5 May 27 2013 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
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Source? I don't see anywhere that EQ1 is dead or even in the F2P stage.

Edit: Okay, seems that both EQ are free-to-play.

Edited, May 27th 2013 9:44am by UltKnightGrover
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#6 May 27 2013 at 10:38 AM Rating: Good
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Not the only ones left, but definitely the most successful.

And Everquest is free to play with restrictions with the option to subscribe.

Edited, May 27th 2013 12:40pm by BrokenFox
#7 May 27 2013 at 10:40 AM Rating: Good
https://www.everquest.com/free

Definitely has gone free to play.
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#8 May 27 2013 at 10:43 AM Rating: Good
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I stand corrected. Thanks!
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#9 May 27 2013 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
Most games will become F2P from the get go now, there's simply too many out there to go the P2P route. When EQ, XI, WoW came out, they were on their own for the most part, so they could charge people for monthly fees without any issues. Now, just off the top of my head there's what, Tera, EQ, EQII, EVE, XI, WoW, XIV (soon), LotRO, GW2, GW1, RO, ROII, SWtOR, AoC, Aion and I'm sure there's a ton more if I just google an MMO list. That's 15 MMO's, in a genre that's popular, but not overly popular. It's simply too many games with not enough people to go around, so you have to make F2P to even try to get people interested.

Honestly, of all your co-workers, friends, etc, how many do you know that actually play MMO's? Friends, sure I have a couple, but co-workers? A ton play video games, not a one plays MMOs, and they sure as **** don't understand why I do. By friends, I mean real life friends here, not the ones you've met on XI who have become RL friends with.

I get that P2P is the way to go for those of us who were around for the start of these games, I know Catwho, Wint, Thayos etc feel strongly about that and why wouldn't we? It's led to games with great communities that have kept us busy for years. Though, I do think eventually the model will die and be revamped into something else along the lines of what Catwho had mentioned in another thread. The companies have to do something else, cause I still have yet to stick to a F2P MMO (and I've tried several). I simply can't wrap my head around paying for in game items, seeing ads in game, paying a monthly fee but still having to pay for certain other things, it makes no sense!

I do hope XIV sticks with the p2p model, I haven't stuck to an MMO since XI and really want something to play on a consistent basis again. We'll see what happens though, all depends on what kind of population SE is happy with.
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#10 May 27 2013 at 11:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Eve online is subscription based all way. Someone can play for free but only if he has a lot of cash in game (i was running 3 accounts for free and that was a lot of money each month) and also only if another player bought that in game item for 30days play time with real money. So if players stop buying those extra times the rest wont be able to play for free.

So the P2P MMOs that i know of so far are :
Eve online
WoW
FF XI
FF ARR (soon anyway)
Darkfall online

I'll edit once i remember more cause i am sure i missed some.

edit: It's still not certain but more than likely Elder Scrolls online will be pay to play.


Edited, May 27th 2013 1:23pm by Teravibe
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#11 May 27 2013 at 11:28 AM Rating: Default
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well with only 5 games p2p out of the hundreds of MMOs out there now whats the likelyhood of FFXIV being successful soley based on that fact? at least the other games on that list are old and already had its community and launch before the F2P craze.. but i think starting a p2p game in this day and age is just suicide... lets hope Im wrong
#12 May 27 2013 at 11:29 AM Rating: Good
Well, according to this (and most of these games seem up to date), there's still quite a few.

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm

Edit: Some are just not up to date, but A Tale in the Desert among some others are still P2P.

Edited, May 27th 2013 1:31pm by Montsegurnephcreep
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#13 May 27 2013 at 11:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
Well, according to this (and most of these games seem up to date), there's still quite a few.

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm


Yea i saw that list before but i seriously can't understand which are free to play buy to play and pay to play.
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#14 May 27 2013 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
Ya, that's the issue...some of them seem to be F2P, but if you really want anything, you HAVE to sub otherwise it's beyond limited.
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#15 May 27 2013 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
well with only 5 games p2p out of the hundreds of MMOs out there now whats the likelyhood of FFXIV being successful soley based on that fact? at least the other games on that list are old and already had its community and launch before the F2P craze.. but i think starting a p2p game in this day and age is just suicide... lets hope Im wrong


Well let me ask you a different question...

Based solely on that fact, what are the odds of FFXIV's development team wearing blue pants?

Basing a success and failure determination on a single piece of information taken in a vacuum is a pointless exercise because nothing ever works like that.

Based on a measurement of subscribers, FFXI has been failing quite successfully for nearly 11 years. Is it because the game has a subscription fee?
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#16 May 27 2013 at 11:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
well with only 5 games p2p out of the hundreds of MMOs out there now whats the likelyhood of FFXIV being successful soley based on that fact? at least the other games on that list are old and already had its community and launch before the F2P craze.. but i think starting a p2p game in this day and age is just suicide... lets hope Im wrong



Not 100% true. Since i know a lot for Eve online ill give you an example for that. Eve online is a 10 year old game but each year has free expansions that improve the game more and more from graphics to gameplay, content etc. The game doesn't have the crazy subs other games have but its one of the few games that even now grows its subs more and more. 2012 they went above 400.000 subs and i believe in 2013 more than 500.000. Those numbers at least for me are really good. The reason i believe they have the steady rise in subs its because they offer a game that is pretty unique and because they do not let it die. Constant updates/upgrades lively community and many more.

So from that i came in the conclusion that if the game is good and it offers something unique something that will hook the players to play it over and over again then it will not fail but keep going and maybe rise.
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#17 May 27 2013 at 11:43 AM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
well with only 5 games p2p out of the hundreds of MMOs out there now whats the likelyhood of FFXIV being successful soley based on that fact?


It's a good thing it won't be solely based on that fact then, huh? I agree if you look at it like that, considering ONLY the number of F2P vs. P2P, the likelihood of success is low. Thankfully, there are a lot of other factors at play. Only time will tell what happens.
#18 May 27 2013 at 12:23 PM Rating: Default
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Teravibe wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
well with only 5 games p2p out of the hundreds of MMOs out there now whats the likelyhood of FFXIV being successful soley based on that fact? at least the other games on that list are old and already had its community and launch before the F2P craze.. but i think starting a p2p game in this day and age is just suicide... lets hope Im wrong



Not 100% true. Since i know a lot for Eve online ill give you an example for that. Eve online is a 10 year old game but each year has free expansions that improve the game more and more from graphics to gameplay, content etc. The game doesn't have the crazy subs other games have but its one of the few games that even now grows its subs more and more. 2012 they went above 400.000 subs and i believe in 2013 more than 500.000. Those numbers at least for me are really good. The reason i believe they have the steady rise in subs its because they offer a game that is pretty unique and because they do not let it die. Constant updates/upgrades lively community and many more.

So from that i came in the conclusion that if the game is good and it offers something unique something that will hook the players to play it over and over again then it will not fail but keep going and maybe rise.



EVE is already established though.. im sure if it came out just now things would be different
#19 May 27 2013 at 12:28 PM Rating: Default
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
well with only 5 games p2p out of the hundreds of MMOs out there now whats the likelyhood of FFXIV being successful soley based on that fact? at least the other games on that list are old and already had its community and launch before the F2P craze.. but i think starting a p2p game in this day and age is just suicide... lets hope Im wrong


Well let me ask you a different question...

Based solely on that fact, what are the odds of FFXIV's development team wearing blue pants?

Basing a success and failure determination on a single piece of information taken in a vacuum is a pointless exercise because nothing ever works like that.

Based on a measurement of subscribers, FFXI has been failing quite successfully for nearly 11 years. Is it because the game has a subscription fee?



Well the point Im making is this...

everyone claims FFXIV is taking teh casual WoW style approach because the EQ style of gameplay that FFXI took is "old" and "outdated" and wouldnt get as many ppl plying if it wasnt casual and "fast paced" (read instant gratification with little to no struggle), like WoW.

Ok now if THAT is supposedly true then from the looks of MMOs in teh last 3-5 year P2P is old and outdated too, the new thing is F2P and thus P2P wouldnt get as many subscribers or ppl interested as they would if they were F2P, so using that logic why get rid of one "outdated" style but keep another if your whole reason for changing the style in the first place was to get as many ppl coming in as possible, surely F2P (or B2P) would draw in an even bigger crowd that P2P right?
#20 May 27 2013 at 12:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well i guess we agree we disagree because i do not believe it would have failed if it came out now since it offers something that no one else offers.

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#21 May 27 2013 at 1:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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FFXIV, or a FFXI release today, does not necessarily have to contend with this mythical instant-gratification playerbase that people like to blame for the current state of MMOs. What a FF MMO today has to contend with is low faith in the brand after XI was poorly managed (pretty much always), XII and XIII had very mixed critical receptions, and of course now, FFXIV has bombed. Final Fantasy used to be able to ride its own hype train, and now people are skeptical whether they can even make a good game.
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#22 May 27 2013 at 1:13 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
What a FF MMO today has to contend with is low faith in the brand after XI was poorly managed (pretty much always)


Not sure how a game that's poorly managed made it to be as big a success as FFXI has, or lasted 11 years while being the most highly profitable game SE has ever produced. That kind of seems like the antithesis of "poorly managed". Certainly there are some archaic and outdated or awkward components to it, much like there are in all current mmos, but the game as a whole has been a resounding success that millions of players over the years have thoroughly enjoyed and supported. Heck, even most of the outdated components such as open world endgame, and the crazy grind of the game have been updated and massively improved. As far as the other FF games since XI, I completely agree with you.
#23 May 27 2013 at 1:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Teravibe wrote:
Well i guess we agree we disagree because i do not believe it would have failed if it came out now since it offers something that no one else offers.




youre absolutely right.. thing is ppl this gen have the mentality of "why should i have to pay to play i game i already bought and own" so even if EVE came out today and was the BEST game ever created no one would give it a chance to find out for themselves just how good it is because they think its "stupid" to have to pay to play something they already bought once and own
#24 May 27 2013 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Teravibe wrote:
Well i guess we agree we disagree because i do not believe it would have failed if it came out now since it offers something that no one else offers.




youre absolutely right.. thing is ppl this gen have the mentality of "why should i have to pay to play i game i already bought and own" so even if EVE came out today and was the BEST game ever created no one would give it a chance to find out for themselves just how good it is because they think its "stupid" to have to pay to play something they already bought once and own


This is just conjecture. You have absolutely no way of knowing how successful EVE would be if it came out now. The reason it is still successful is because it does something different. A lot of people really like that, and are willing to pay for it. Just like a lot of people are willing to pay for a well-done FF mmo. You can make claims to its success or failure all you want, but until it goes live and we see how it unfolds, it's nothing but assumptions.
#25 May 27 2013 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:

youre absolutely right.. thing is ppl this gen have the mentality of "why should i have to pay to play i game i already bought and own" so even if EVE came out today and was the BEST game ever created no one would give it a chance to find out for themselves just how good it is because they think its "stupid" to have to pay to play something they already bought once and own


You might have made that same argument about Everquest or FFXI back when they launched. "Why should I keep paying for a game I already bought" is a question I'd have expected to hear when MMOs were a brand new thing. I think people know what an MMO is now, and they know what a subscription service is. The question ACTUALLY boils down to "is this worth paying a subscription for?"

That's a completely different question, and an entirely legitimate one. But it's not a question that can be answered until the game actually launches and people have a chance to play it.

The question of whether people will play the game doesn't depend on whether it's subscription or cash-shop supported. It has everything to do with whether or not the game is worth playing.

Edited, May 27th 2013 3:01pm by Callinon
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#26 May 27 2013 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
What a FF MMO today has to contend with is low faith in the brand after XI was poorly managed (pretty much always), XII and XIII had very mixed critical receptions, and of course now, FFXIV has bombed.


Smiley: dubious

I accept that FFXIV bombed, but...

FFXII had a 92 / 100 on Metacritic. That's as critically acclaimed as you can expect a game to get short of it being legendary.

FFXI had 85 / 100.
FFXIII had 83 / 100.

Maybe those weren't gold standard, but they were hardly panned. It certainly doesn't point to this conspiracy that SE can no longer competently make a game, only that they haven't always hit home runs. I think FFXIV was a wake-up call, but hardly a trend.
#27 May 27 2013 at 2:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:
Kachi wrote:
What a FF MMO today has to contend with is low faith in the brand after XI was poorly managed (pretty much always), XII and XIII had very mixed critical receptions, and of course now, FFXIV has bombed.


Smiley: dubious

I accept that FFXIV bombed, but...

FFXII had a 92 / 100 on Metacritic. That's as critically acclaimed as you can expect a game to get short of it being legendary.

FFXI had 85 / 100.
FFXIII had 83 / 100.

Maybe those weren't gold standard, but they were hardly panned. It certainly doesn't point to this conspiracy that SE can no longer competently make a game, only that they haven't always hit home runs. I think FFXIV was a wake-up call, but hardly a trend.


Critics do not equal fanbase, XII got a perfect score in famitsu, yet it is still considered a departure into the series(And i love the game) XIII sold well because it was the only FF on this generation, and never before had we seen up to that point, such outrage at a FF game... Well until XIV.
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#28 May 27 2013 at 3:07 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
What a FF MMO today has to contend with is low faith in the brand after XI was poorly managed (pretty much always)


Not sure how a game that's poorly managed made it to be as big a success as FFXI has, or lasted 11 years while being the most highly profitable game SE has ever produced. That kind of seems like the antithesis of "poorly managed". Certainly there are some archaic and outdated or awkward components to it, much like there are in all current mmos, but the game as a whole has been a resounding success that millions of players over the years have thoroughly enjoyed and supported. Heck, even most of the outdated components such as open world endgame, and the crazy grind of the game have been updated and massively improved. As far as the other FF games since XI, I completely agree with you.


The game could have been so much more successful than it was, but generally they did not listen to their players and flat out ignored really important feedback from the community. Fixes came at a snail's crawl, if at all. Developmental resources were completely wasted.

Being commercially successful doesn't mean it wasn't poorly managed. If WoW had been poorly managed, they could still easily have a million players.

Honestly, I don't even care to argue this point, because all the evidence anyone could ever need is right here on this site. People loved the game in spite of the poor management of it, but faith in SE took a major hit from their handling of the game.

Xoie wrote:
Kachi wrote:
What a FF MMO today has to contend with is low faith in the brand after XI was poorly managed (pretty much always), XII and XIII had very mixed critical receptions, and of course now, FFXIV has bombed.


Smiley: dubious

I accept that FFXIV bombed, but...

FFXII had a 92 / 100 on Metacritic. That's as critically acclaimed as you can expect a game to get short of it being legendary.

FFXI had 85 / 100.
FFXIII had 83 / 100.

Maybe those weren't gold standard, but they were hardly panned. It certainly doesn't point to this conspiracy that SE can no longer competently make a game, only that they haven't always hit home runs. I think FFXIV was a wake-up call, but hardly a trend.


If you look at user reviews rather than metacritic, it's a very different story. Moreover, brand faith is not about the average reception of the game, but the variance and distribution of its reception. A game that gets straight 8's is good for the brand. A game that gets lots of 4's, 6's, etc. (which are offset by 9's and 10's) means that for many players, brand faith has probably taken a hit.
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#29 May 27 2013 at 4:16 PM Rating: Good
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Plus I think when reviewing a game (much like reviewing or critically analyzing anything) you have to take into context other factors:

The game compared to the rest of the series, the game compared to other games, the game compared to the current zeitgeist, the game compared to, well I think you get the point.

For example, was XIII as bad as the inital launch of 1.0, no way.

I admit I was a bit harsh on XIII when it came out because objectively it was an OK (and I stress) OK game. It was very pretty and the music was good, but there were so many misteps and such a departure from what Final Fantasy feels like, that it just missed the mark....and that's something that a Metacritc score won't tell you.

After playing Mass Effect 2 (a series that I love and had just came out prior) XIII fell very, very flat comparatively.

---

To analogize Kachi's point, the score is equivalent to living in a neighborhood with million dollar homes. Are all of the homes between $800,000-$1,200,000, or do you live in an area where there are multi-million dollar homes, but is right next to a slum, making the range say $200k-12mil. The average home price is the same for both examples, but one is a much nicer area overall.

A little more off topic here: but when people complain and say "Oh the average house price here in my neighborhood is too high" I laugh, because just 5 miles out of that neighborhood (in most states) you can find a house for considerably cheaper. Whereas in California you're paying that high average price (in most cases) throughout the entire region.

Lastly, and somewhat more on topic, I think that FFXI was a bit of an anomaly, but shows that if ARR is decent that it can survive for probably the same amount of time XI did; just on name alone (no matter how tarnished).

Look, assuming all things are equal; assuming that ARR is "better" than FFXI, that the leadership/communication is better than FFXI, that there is no tolerance for failure, the game will do well.

I look at P2P (and it should be marketed this way) as a "luxury" badge. Companies need to have a backup plan when subs dwindle. And if companies are losing subs those companies/MMO developers need to look at why that's the case, rather than saying "Ooops! Better go F2P now."

It just seems like a lazy short sighted business plan.
#30 May 27 2013 at 6:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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#31 May 27 2013 at 6:46 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Smiley: deadhorse.

Yeah as soon as I see the phrase P2P I try to skip the thread from there on out if possible lol

Edited, May 27th 2013 5:47pm by LebargeX
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#32 May 27 2013 at 7:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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First month should always be included with purchase of the game imo, the people who actually enjoy it and want to play will sign up and pay for the next month. Keep this f2p business out of FFXIV. I'll say it again, if you can't afford $0.50 per day, I don't know what to tell you. If you can afford it and refuse to pay it, you're either extremely frugal or not that interested in the game. There are plenty of f2p mmos out there, go pick one and rave about how awesome it is on their forums please.
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#33 May 27 2013 at 8:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Transmigration wrote:
First month should always be included with purchase of the game imo, the people who actually enjoy it and want to play will sign up and pay for the next month. Keep this f2p business out of FFXIV. I'll say it again, if you can't afford $0.50 per day, I don't know what to tell you. If you can afford it and refuse to pay it, you're either extremely frugal or not that interested in the game. There are plenty of f2p mmos out there, go pick one and rave about how awesome it is on their forums please.


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#34 May 27 2013 at 9:09 PM Rating: Good
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Depends on what you call P2P. Anarchy Online for example should still be called P2P, even though vanilla and Notum Wars is F2P now. As you can not access other expansions contents without paying subs, and once you stopped paying subs you can't keep them. Even Runescape or Doofus would be P2P as there are huge chunks of contents not accessible without sub, and you stop having access if you stopped subs. Those are clearly different from say paying subs to gain exp/gold faster or reset raid instance faster.
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#35 May 27 2013 at 10:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:

youre absolutely right.. thing is ppl this gen have the mentality of "why should i have to pay to play i game i already bought and own" so even if EVE came out today and was the BEST game ever created no one would give it a chance to find out for themselves just how good it is because they think its "stupid" to have to pay to play something they already bought once and own


You might have made that same argument about Everquest or FFXI back when they launched. "Why should I keep paying for a game I already bought"

Edited, May 27th 2013 3:01pm by Callinon



I can link you to LOADS of posts/topics of ppl asking that very question whenever FFXIV or any P2P MMORPG comes up in a discussion.. Ive NEVER seen such posr sin the FFXI, WoW launch days.... SO clearly theres something different about todays gen gamers than the ones that came from 10+ years ago
#36 May 28 2013 at 6:49 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Honestly, I don't even care to argue this point, because all the evidence anyone could ever need is right here on this site. People loved the game in spite of the poor management of it, but faith in SE took a major hit from their handling of the game.


That's fine. I think you're dead wrong, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. It was the first mmo they ever made, it was highly understaffed for most of it's lifetime, and it was still a resounding success that is still looked at with admiration and hardcore loyalty. Could it have been managed better? Sure, so could just about every other game ever made. But I don't think it was poorly managed and I don't think it had anything to do with people losing faith in SE. If it was, it wouldn't still be around today or be a resounding success. You can talk about the "what-ifs" all you want, the fact is that the game has done incredibly well, far better than I think anyone at SE would have ever predicted.

Edited, May 28th 2013 8:55am by BartelX
#37 May 28 2013 at 6:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Even if you didn't personally find significant deficiencies in their management of the game, you only need to look at the early posts in the FFXIV forums to hear from the throngs of people who expressed that they didn't trust SE after FFXI. Much if not most of the conversation centered around whether or not SE could turn around their management style.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#38 May 28 2013 at 7:13 AM Rating: Good
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Go to the WoW forums and you'll see a bunch of threads complaining about how badly managed it is and how they don't listen to fans there too. Same for swtor, lotro, basically every mmo I've ever played. Fans are going to complain about stuff. I understand what you're saying, that FFXI didn't listen to their fanbase that much at the beginning, and it's true. But at the time of its release, not many other mmo's did either.

However, more recently, SE has incorporated tons of stuff from the fans, have held countless appreciation events, and greatly improved their response time to fixes and updates. They've also pumped out what, 6 expansions and a whole bunch of add-on packs for the game in 11 years? WoW has 4 I think in 9 years? I'd say they've done pretty decent content-wise, and have certainly improved their customer service. After not playing the game for 4+ years and giving my account to a friend who changed all the info, I was able to contact them and get my character restored exactly how it was when I left within 24 hours. That's pretty impressive in my opinion.
#39 May 28 2013 at 7:53 AM Rating: Good
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The new director of XI made a huge error in judgment with the latest expansion in XI, and accidentally made half the new content they released as well as all previous relic/mythic/empyrean weapons obsolete. Oops.

However, unlike Tanaka, he's admitted his mistake and they're trying to figure how to fix the problem. So far their fixes have made things worse. Smiley: disappointed
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#40 May 28 2013 at 8:58 AM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
The new director of XI made a huge error in judgment with the latest expansion in XI, and accidentally made half the new content they released as well as all previous relic/mythic/empyrean weapons obsolete. Oops.

However, unlike Tanaka, he's admitted his mistake and they're trying to figure how to fix the problem. So far their fixes have made things worse. Smiley: disappointed


Ouch, that's extremely unfortunate. That's why I always liked the horizontal progression of XI when it had it. It was certainly disheartening to log in after 4 years off and see that my e body, ace's helm, byakko's haidate, etc were all completely useless once you got past 75. It would have been cool if there were some quests to really update the old gear and make it on par with newer stuff... even if the questlines were long or difficult.
#41 May 28 2013 at 9:10 AM Rating: Decent
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4,957 posts
Catwho wrote:
The new director of XI made a huge error in judgment with the latest expansion in XI, and accidentally made half the new content they released as well as all previous relic/mythic/empyrean weapons obsolete. Oops.

However, unlike Tanaka, he's admitted his mistake and they're trying to figure how to fix the problem. So far their fixes have made things worse. Smiley: disappointed

well mythic and relic were alreayd obselete due to empyrean supposedly but umm how did they acciently make empyrean obselete?
#42 May 28 2013 at 9:26 AM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Go to the WoW forums and you'll see a bunch of threads complaining about how badly managed it is and how they don't listen to fans there too. Same for swtor, lotro, basically every mmo I've ever played. Fans are going to complain about stuff. I understand what you're saying, that FFXI didn't listen to their fanbase that much at the beginning, and it's true. But at the time of its release, not many other mmo's did either.

However, more recently, SE has incorporated tons of stuff from the fans, have held countless appreciation events, and greatly improved their response time to fixes and updates. They've also pumped out what, 6 expansions and a whole bunch of add-on packs for the game in 11 years? WoW has 4 I think in 9 years? I'd say they've done pretty decent content-wise, and have certainly improved their customer service. After not playing the game for 4+ years and giving my account to a friend who changed all the info, I was able to contact them and get my character restored exactly how it was when I left within 24 hours. That's pretty impressive in my opinion.


Most of the people who left FFXI left waaaaayyyyy before these last few years, and I haven't heard much better from the people playing recently. Updates often came YEARS after fans resoundingly demanded them, and then they'd update with things like bell emotes and Pankration. Conversely, I've known many western games to incorporate major patches the same WEEK a balance problem was identified or an encounter was broken.

There was a distinct level of skepticism regarding FFXIV before it came out that centered around SE's managment of XI. That's pretty much all I'm saying--since XI, XII, XIII, and XIV, SE has really veered away from the basic formula that made 1-10 successful, and have lost a lot of brand faith in the process.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#43 May 28 2013 at 9:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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48,703 posts
Kachi wrote:
SE has really veered away from the basic formula that made 1-10 successful,
The basic formula that made 1-10 "successful" was the words "Final Fantasy" on the boxes.
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#44 May 28 2013 at 9:34 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Kachi wrote:
SE has really veered away from the basic formula that made 1-10 successful,
The basic formula that made 1-10 "successful" was the words "Final Fantasy" on the boxes.


To an extent, yes. But they were also pumping out the highest quality JRPGs, and lately they've just sort of abandoned the genre altogether. Whatever you think about JRPGs, their execution of them, and the role of the "Final Fantasy" branding, faith used to be much higher in the company.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#45 May 28 2013 at 9:37 AM Rating: Good
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6,898 posts
Kachi wrote:
There was a distinct level of skepticism regarding FFXIV before it came out that centered around SE's managment of XI.


That's fine, I just happen to think it had a heck of a lot more to do with games after FFXI than it did with FFXI. I'm not saying there was no skepticism due to FFXI, I'm just saying that I don't think it was near as big a factor as games like FFX-2, FF: Crystal Chronicles, FFXIII, etc. I actually think a lot more people were excited for XIV based on the success and enjoyment they had from XI. I was commenting on the "poorly managed" part of your original post, as I personally don't think it was all that poorly managed. Like I said, it could have been better, as could every other mmo I've ever played.
#46 May 28 2013 at 9:44 AM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
There was a distinct level of skepticism regarding FFXIV before it came out that centered around SE's managment of XI.


That's fine, I just happen to think it had a heck of a lot more to do with games after FFXI than it did with FFXI. I'm not saying there was no skepticism due to FFXI, I'm just saying that I don't think it was near as big a factor as games like FFX-2, FF: Crystal Chronicles, FFXIII, etc. I actually think a lot more people were excited for XIV based on the success and enjoyment they had from XI. I was commenting on the "poorly managed" part of your original post, as I personally don't think it was all that poorly managed. Like I said, it could have been better, as could every other mmo I've ever played.


I tend to agree, actually (aside from the part about XI not being poorly managed). XI was a pretty successful game, and while there was still a lot of skepticism about their ability to handle XIV better, if not for the titles between XI and XIV, I don't think brand faith would have suffered as it does now.

Remember that as unfair a measure of game quality as it may be, the vast majority of people who played XI eventually quit. They didn't usually quit because of internal factors, but because of things that they primarily blamed SE for. Some of those things are endemic to modern MMOs, some of them aren't even rational, but ultimately that doesn't matter to any results-oriented professional. Brand faith was lost, and that's a ****-up.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#47 May 28 2013 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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21,262 posts
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Catwho wrote:
The new director of XI made a huge error in judgment with the latest expansion in XI, and accidentally made half the new content they released as well as all previous relic/mythic/empyrean weapons obsolete. Oops.

However, unlike Tanaka, he's admitted his mistake and they're trying to figure how to fix the problem. So far their fixes have made things worse. Smiley: disappointed

well mythic and relic were alreayd obselete due to empyrean supposedly but umm how did they acciently make empyrean obselete?


Released easily obtainable weapons with twice the damage.

This was the dagger I had been main handing.

This is what replaced it over the weekend.

Now they're scrambling to think of ways to make the 99 REMs worthwhile again, but the ideas have ranged from "unlock the WS on other weapons" to "crap I guess we have to increase the damage on the 99 versions too, don't we."

____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#48 May 28 2013 at 11:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Catwho wrote:
The new director of XI made a huge error in judgment with the latest expansion in XI, and accidentally made half the new content they released as well as all previous relic/mythic/empyrean weapons obsolete. Oops.

However, unlike Tanaka, he's admitted his mistake and they're trying to figure how to fix the problem. So far their fixes have made things worse. Smiley: disappointed

well mythic and relic were alreayd obselete due to empyrean supposedly but umm how did they acciently make empyrean obselete?


Released easily obtainable weapons with twice the damage.

This was the dagger I had been main handing.

This is what replaced it over the weekend.

Now they're scrambling to think of ways to make the 99 REMs worthwhile again, but the ideas have ranged from "unlock the WS on other weapons" to "crap I guess we have to increase the damage on the 99 versions too, don't we."



This is a concern I've had with SE for a long time now.

I get the impression, a lot, that they don't really have a lead designer working for them. Someone to manage the design of the game and make sure it stays on track. Someone whose job it is to know what will be affected when something is changed.

I also get the impression that the only thing they have a QA team for is ironing out bugs; not testing to make sure working code doesn't do something degenerate.

Your daggers there are a STUNNING example of this. That shouldn't happen.
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#49 May 28 2013 at 11:42 AM Rating: Good
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Wow, that is a pretty insane oversight. And good lord, thinking back to 75 cap when my D37 pharpe was pretty much the highest you could get short of a mandau, I'm drooling just looking at that dagger...
#50 May 28 2013 at 11:50 AM Rating: Good
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Interestingly, the only folks to not be totally screwed by the Delve weapons were bards and paladins. The two shields, Aegis and Ochain, and the two instruments, Gjallarhorn and Daurdabla (Ghorn and Dharp), are already so overpowered that they're kind of at a loss of how to make anything better. So they're just not releasing any new shields or instruments in Delve.

SE didn't intend for people to obtain those Delve weapons right away. Gusterion, while a VERY good dagger, is not even part of the REM set. (Probably the best you could get outside of REM though, and a super rare drop. Got very lucky.) SE wanted us to do a progression in which we'd gear ourselves up with Empyrean +2, then NNI and Voidwatch gear, then do the new casual content for slightly better gear, and then finally access the new very hard content while wearing gear that was now second best in slot to get the very best in slot stuff.

Instead, people who were wearing mediocre gear figured out a way to zombie the Delve fights (sometimes taking several hours) so they could skip all the now obsolete content and jump right into the good stuff. SE hastily patched the fights to prevent the zombie-ing by limiting them to 20 minutes, but the damage was done. Now there are two classes of players - the REMD and everyone else. And half the "D" people were folks who just got really lucky and got their KIs prior to the 20 minute timer.

Not that a thief, even with a delve weapon, is going to get invited to those fights. Smiley: lol I've been doing them on bard.

Edited, May 28th 2013 1:54pm by Catwho
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#51 May 28 2013 at 5:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Catwho wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Catwho wrote:
The new director of XI made a huge error in judgment with the latest expansion in XI, and accidentally made half the new content they released as well as all previous relic/mythic/empyrean weapons obsolete. Oops.

However, unlike Tanaka, he's admitted his mistake and they're trying to figure how to fix the problem. So far their fixes have made things worse. Smiley: disappointed

well mythic and relic were alreayd obselete due to empyrean supposedly but umm how did they acciently make empyrean obselete?


Released easily obtainable weapons with twice the damage.

This was the dagger I had been main handing.

This is what replaced it over the weekend.

Now they're scrambling to think of ways to make the 99 REMs worthwhile again, but the ideas have ranged from "unlock the WS on other weapons" to "crap I guess we have to increase the damage on the 99 versions too, don't we."



This is a concern I've had with SE for a long time now.

I get the impression, a lot, that they don't really have a lead designer working for them. Someone to manage the design of the game and make sure it stays on track. Someone whose job it is to know what will be affected when something is changed.

I also get the impression that the only thing they have a QA team for is ironing out bugs; not testing to make sure working code doesn't do something degenerate.

Your daggers there are a STUNNING example of this. That shouldn't happen.


Absolutely, and you saw these bizarre design decisions all over the place in XI. Quests that were fun but took incredible effort and clearly had a lot of planning behind them reward you with 1000 gil. Tons of equipment was obsolete upon implementation--a huge waste of development resources. If they do have a lead designer, they're sleeping on the job. Abilities are worthless, areas are worthless... they only require a tweak of the numbers. These are the kinds of things that happened historically throughout XI that lend to the lack of faith in their ability to manage an MMO that I was talking about in the other thread.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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