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#1 May 27 2013 at 10:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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So...With the upcoming release of Realm Reborn, I think I may have come to a realization that I may be expecting far more than Square Enix has to offer. At the time XIV was initially released, I was waiting for the PS3 version to come out as I was(still am) a Mac user. I wasn't too upset when I heard that XIV was a disaster, because I heard similar rants and raves against White Knight Chronicles and I loved that game for the longest time~ So patiently, I waited for more news and updates until I heard that XIV was getting a reboot and revamped. With nothing to go by but images and the few videos of game play as a tease, Final Fantasy XIV has become like that one game on the horizon. The holy grail of games, if you will~ Now after all these years, and roughly three months to go, I think I'm at the point where I'm expecting my mind to be blown and the angel's choir singing out to me at the log in screen. It's finally becoming a reality, and I'm afraid @_@
#2 May 27 2013 at 11:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Recipe for disappointment. I'm fully expecting the game to be good but I'm being realistic as well.

Nostalgia is a big factor too. I remember the first time I stepped into Final Fantasy XI:

"Woah this world is huge! Look how cool my armor looks! Holy sh*t that's another person!! THIS IS AWESOME!!!"

No other MMO is ever gonna top that.

Edited, May 31st 2013 1:48am by BrokenFox
#3 May 27 2013 at 11:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aekotie wrote:
So...With the upcoming release of Realm Reborn, I think I may have come to a realization that I may be expecting far more than Square Enix has to offer. At the time XIV was initially released, I was waiting for the PS3 version to come out as I was(still am) a Mac user. I wasn't too upset when I heard that XIV was a disaster, because I heard similar rants and raves against White Knight Chronicles and I loved that game for the longest time~ So patiently, I waited for more news and updates until I heard that XIV was getting a reboot and revamped. With nothing to go by but images and the few videos of game play as a tease, Final Fantasy XIV has become like that one game on the horizon. The holy grail of games, if you will~ Now after all these years, and roughly three months to go, I think I'm at the point where I'm expecting my mind to be blown and the angel's choir singing out to me at the log in screen. It's finally becoming a reality, and I'm afraid @_@


I think what sets an MMO apart is the human dynamic which single player games simply don't offer. If you are able to meet some interesting people, who are worth talking to and adventuring with you can always find a memorable and enjoyable experience. If you expect ARR to be the most ground breaking game of all time, you may come out disappointed. If you go in with the mindset that you want to explore an exciting new world, make some new friends, and immerse yourself in what the game has to offer, then I think you'll be quite satisfied with your experience!

Granted for this to be true, the game can't be fundamentally broken like 1.0 was. However, from the sounds of it Yoshi knows what he is doing and is going to deliver something we can all be happy with if we just give it a chance.

Edited, May 28th 2013 1:17am by Parathyroid
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#4 May 27 2013 at 11:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think if you go into it with an open, but mostly impartial mind, you'll be in for lots of surprises. Besides, you'll be playing with me. I think I can get us up to enough trouble to keep you on edge and excited at the same time, lol.
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#5 May 27 2013 at 11:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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There have been posters here that I think are setting their expectations too high.

Things that I'm realistically expecting:

-Crystal Tower and Ishgard aren't going to be there at launch. They'll arrive in updates afterward. (S-E has confirmed this as such.)
-The main storyline will probably be added through patches. We'll have a decent chunk at launch, but I doubt we'll be able to finish it from the get-go.
-Arcanist/Summoner will make it I'm sure, but if the way they treat XI expansions are any indication, the AF quest for Summoner might be delayed a patch since they're not expecting anyone to reach level 50 for that class in a week or two.

Don't pass my concerns/notes off as pessimism, however. I think FFXIV: ARR will be a great game, but S-E is human, they're trying to re-launch/polish an entire MMO in under the half of the time a normal company would take to make one. There's bound to be some errors, no one is perfect.

Edited, May 27th 2013 10:27pm by UltKnightGrover
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#6 May 28 2013 at 12:42 AM Rating: Decent
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
There have been posters here that I think are setting their expectations too high.

Things that I'm realistically expecting:

-Crystal Tower and Ishgard aren't going to be there at launch. They'll arrive in updates afterward. (S-E has confirmed this as such.)]


Considering that Crystal Tower is a stepping stone for the Labyrinth of Bahamut (which is confirmed to be included), CT has to be included from the get-go (I have not heard of a confirmation of the opposite). What remains to be seen is whether the CT follows similar trend with the LoB (incremental expansion of the event up until 2014) which is more likely.

Ishgard however, as you said, will arrive post-launch.
#7 May 28 2013 at 12:55 AM Rating: Good
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The location has been confirmed to be in the game, not that it will be raidable on launch, tho i would think wint would know more about it, and can freely speak on that.

As far as expectations, i would argue the contrary, 1.0 set the bar so low, that most fans will give it a pass even if it is not that great of a game (Not saying it will not be)
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#8 May 28 2013 at 5:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
The location has been confirmed to be in the game, not that it will be raidable on launch, tho i would think wint would know more about it, and can freely speak on that.

As far as expectations, i would argue the contrary, 1.0 set the bar so low, that most fans will give it a pass even if it is not that great of a game (Not saying it will not be)


That's a good point, and basically where I'm at. I want it to be great, but after playing 1.0 far longer than I probably should have, I'm not putting all my hopes and dreams into this game. I'm still very excited, and I still think it has the opportunity to be a fantastic game, but the realist in me understands that it's no guarantee it will be. The big things it has going for it this time around are actual gameplay footage and screenshots that make it look FAR better than 1.0 did at launch, and of course, Yoshi-P. That man has certainly done some incredible things in the past 2 years to get the game looking like it does now.

Edited, May 28th 2013 8:42am by BartelX
#9 May 28 2013 at 6:16 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm a bit worried about the development team filling the game with thousands of trivial generic fetch/kill quests, mistakenly thinking that this qualifies as content. FFXI had lots of quests that felt like they had some substance to them, often full of quality backround lore or challenge. On the other hand I can't even remember a single quest from any other MMO I've played - they're just totally throwaway.
#10 May 28 2013 at 6:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dizmo wrote:
I'm a bit worried about the development team filling the game with thousands of trivial generic fetch/kill quests, mistakenly thinking that this qualifies as content. FFXI had lots of quests that felt like they had some substance to them, often full of quality backround lore or challenge. On the other hand I can't even remember a single quest from any other MMO I've played - they're just totally throwaway.

Unfortunately this seems to be the case in my month long beta testing. Though i will and can say they have some kinda cool quests for instance the one IN Gridania where you have to cheer a little girl up using emotes. Never had to use emotes in a quest before..
#11 May 28 2013 at 6:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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AlexandEric wrote:
Dizmo wrote:
I'm a bit worried about the development team filling the game with thousands of trivial generic fetch/kill quests, mistakenly thinking that this qualifies as content. FFXI had lots of quests that felt like they had some substance to them, often full of quality backround lore or challenge. On the other hand I can't even remember a single quest from any other MMO I've played - they're just totally throwaway.

Unfortunately this seems to be the case in my month long beta testing. Though i will and can say they have some kinda cool quests for instance the one IN Gridania where you have to cheer a little girl up using emotes. Never had to use emotes in a quest before..

They had this, or a quest very much like it, as part of the storyline in 1.0. I remember doing it in Uldah.
#12 May 28 2013 at 6:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Dizmo wrote:
I'm a bit worried about the development team filling the game with thousands of trivial generic fetch/kill quests, mistakenly thinking that this qualifies as content. FFXI had lots of quests that felt like they had some substance to them, often full of quality backround lore or challenge. On the other hand I can't even remember a single quest from any other MMO I've played - they're just totally throwaway.


I wouldn't expect much given their short time frame and the direction they've chosen. Much of what made certain FFXI quests interesting was the difficulty and explicit tasks which required cooperation from other players. They want to go a much more solo-friendly route, and when balancing content for solo, you have to make it manageable for the 'weakest' class too. As a result, everything tends to get watered down.

It will probably still be an okay game for what it is, but in terms of gameplay I wouldn't expect much more than generic.
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#13 May 28 2013 at 7:25 AM Rating: Default
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I had a lot of fun doing missions and quests solo on my level 99 BST when I went back to FFXI for a short while to explore and learn about Vana'diel a bit more fully. Nothing too hard, but not so trivial that even a chimp could mash its way through.

I can't help but feel they looked at other MMOs completely meaningless quests and thought "we could have gotten away with a putting in a lot less effort" and jumped at the opportunity to half *** content creation... ._.
#14 May 28 2013 at 7:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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My expectations in the beta were really low. Can my machine run this as well as it did the benchmark? Yes. Do the menus still lag horribly? No. Is it fun? ... surprisingly, yes. The redesign of Gridania alone made me love the game in a way I never did in 1.0. (The music! The dynamic shadows! The layout that actually makes sense!)

Only time will tell if I get the itch to log in daily and level up a second friggin character like I still do for FFXI. (And oh man I had a fantastic day in XI yesterday. Beat Maat on my second char, got a scroll of Raise III in my KS30, saving me a million gil for that character, got 6 more Apadamak horns toward Dharp 90, and then swooped in and help someone beat the 95 limit break. I was on fire! It's days like that that make the game still worth playing.)

Final Fantasy's core strength has always been the story. It felt a bit too weak in 1.0 which is why, along with its unplayableness and brokenness, the game failed. Once they started releasing more story patches and repairing the engine, the game improved a lot. I can safely say that the guild quests alone inside Gridania are grand stories in the Final Fantasy tradition. (The conjurer quest line is so sad...)
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#15 May 28 2013 at 8:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'd agree that story and content played a huge role in making early 1.0 bearable.

As far as my expectations, they fall somewhere in the middle.

ARR can't possibly be worse than 1.0. But I'm also cautiously optimistic about how everything will come together.

I don't want to get too excited, but everything looks like it has improved...

I don't know what to feel, lol.
#16 May 28 2013 at 9:09 AM Rating: Good
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Atkascha wrote:
I think if you go into it with an open, but mostly impartial mind, you'll be in for lots of surprises. Besides, you'll be playing with me. I think I can get us up to enough trouble to keep you on edge and excited at the same time, lol.


Pfft...The game isn't out and I'm already both thanks to you >.> In all seriousness, I think my mind is about as impartial as it can get; I have no clue what I'm going to do except probably explore and try not to get left behind by y'all xP
#17 May 28 2013 at 9:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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AlexandEric wrote:
Dizmo wrote:
I'm a bit worried about the development team filling the game with thousands of trivial generic fetch/kill quests, mistakenly thinking that this qualifies as content. FFXI had lots of quests that felt like they had some substance to them, often full of quality backround lore or challenge. On the other hand I can't even remember a single quest from any other MMO I've played - they're just totally throwaway.

Unfortunately this seems to be the case in my month long beta testing. Though i will and can say they have some kinda cool quests for instance the one IN Gridania where you have to cheer a little girl up using emotes. Never had to use emotes in a quest before..


I think this is very important to this games ultimate success or failure. SE is at a point where they are trying to appease both hardcore and casual gamers... it will be up to them to find the appropriate mix which makes the game enjoyable for everyone.

On one hand, XI whether on purpose or not, appealed to hardcore "grinders" in almost every facet of the game. Leveling was long and difficult, quests were long and difficult, yet the game was still enjoyable to many... There just wasn't enough casual content to allow those who didn't have 20+ hours a week to sink into the game, to make any progress.

The challenge is up to those at SE to strike a balance between proper quests, filled with lore and adventure that both hardcore and casual gamers can enjoy. This is obviously easy to talk about, however time has proven again and again that it is indeed NOT easy to implement. If it were everyone would be making blockbuster MMOs, but instead it's one of the most difficult niches to break into... when successful though, the reward for the developer and the gamer is second to none!




Edited, May 28th 2013 11:44am by Parathyroid
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#18 May 28 2013 at 2:31 PM Rating: Good
Have faith in SE......have faith.
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#19 May 28 2013 at 4:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
My expectations in the beta were really low. Can my machine run this as well as it did the benchmark? Yes. Do the menus still lag horribly? No. Is it fun? ... surprisingly, yes. The redesign of Gridania alone made me love the game in a way I never did in 1.0. (The music! The dynamic shadows! The layout that actually makes sense!)

Only time will tell if I get the itch to log in daily and level up a second friggin character like I still do for FFXI. (And oh man I had a fantastic day in XI yesterday. Beat Maat on my second char, got a scroll of Raise III in my KS30, saving me a million gil for that character, got 6 more Apadamak horns toward Dharp 90, and then swooped in and help someone beat the 95 limit break. I was on fire! It's days like that that make the game still worth playing.)

Final Fantasy's core strength has always been the story. It felt a bit too weak in 1.0 which is why, along with its unplayableness and brokenness, the game failed. Once they started releasing more story patches and repairing the engine, the game improved a lot. I can safely say that the guild quests alone inside Gridania are grand stories in the Final Fantasy tradition. (The conjurer quest line is so sad...)


I know back when we were all spit-balling about what we'd like to see in 2.0, I did mention, with the lowest expectations it would actually happen, that there should be 7 distinct stories to carry along the leveling experience for each of the 7 combat classes (so that leveling each new class isn't a reliving of the same tale, or something you just skip over). To me, this is true to Final Fantasy's traditional strength. So, I am absolutely stoked that they actually did develop ARR with that in mind.
#20 May 28 2013 at 5:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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They run every 5 levels. They're not limit breaks in XI's sense, in that you can just plow on past them and not worry about doing them every five levels on the clock, but it's a free weapons upgrade each go round, so that's something.
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#21 May 28 2013 at 5:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Dizmo wrote:
I'm a bit worried about the development team filling the game with thousands of trivial generic fetch/kill quests, mistakenly thinking that this qualifies as content. FFXI had lots of quests that felt like they had some substance to them, often full of quality backround lore or challenge. On the other hand I can't even remember a single quest from any other MMO I've played - they're just totally throwaway.


I wouldn't expect much given their short time frame and the direction they've chosen. Much of what made certain FFXI quests interesting was the difficulty and explicit tasks which required cooperation from other players. They want to go a much more solo-friendly route, and when balancing content for solo, you have to make it manageable for the 'weakest' class too. As a result, everything tends to get watered down.

It will probably still be an okay game for what it is, but in terms of gameplay I wouldn't expect much more than generic.


Hmmm, I noticed for a moment anyway this post was rated down to "default." That means someone out there thinks this isn't a well thought out topic, or they just plain disagree with the opinion.

I personally think this post details one of the greatest threats facing XIV. I have absolutely no issue with the game moving towards a more casual friendly experience... however I think a lot of what Kachi said may hold water. Yoshi is going to need to guide this game in a direction that allows for some solo content, however group content is an absolute must... because he's absolutely right, if the only content (or the vast majority anyway) is solo-centric you run into the situation where the quest must be beatable by the best class AND the worst class, as Kachi said.

With that said I feel as though this is a simple issue which Yoshi is clearly considering. Everything he has done has earned my admiration and respect, and I expect this facet of the game's experience will be no different.
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#22 May 28 2013 at 6:16 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
It will probably still be an okay game for what it is, but in terms of gameplay I wouldn't expect much more than generic.


Of course you wouldn't, you're a very "glass half empty" kind of person. I tend to be more optimistic and think that the gameplay, while probably not some insanely revolutionary and game changing idea, will not just be "generic" and "okay". I think it will be quite good, and hopefully build off the absolutely gorgeous world, the seemingly endless FF lore thrown in, and the diverse experience the game as a whole will offer. But like I said, I tend to be more of an optimist.
#23 May 28 2013 at 6:46 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
It will probably still be an okay game for what it is, but in terms of gameplay I wouldn't expect much more than generic.


Of course you wouldn't, you're a very "glass half empty" kind of person. I tend to be more optimistic and think that the gameplay, while probably not some insanely revolutionary and game changing idea, will not just be "generic" and "okay". I think it will be quite good, and hopefully build off the absolutely gorgeous world, the seemingly endless FF lore thrown in, and the diverse experience the game as a whole will offer. But like I said, I tend to be more of an optimist.



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#24 May 28 2013 at 6:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
It will probably still be an okay game for what it is, but in terms of gameplay I wouldn't expect much more than generic.


Of course you wouldn't, you're a very "glass half empty" kind of person. I tend to be more optimistic and think that the gameplay, while probably not some insanely revolutionary and game changing idea, will not just be "generic" and "okay". I think it will be quite good, and hopefully build off the absolutely gorgeous world, the seemingly endless FF lore thrown in, and the diverse experience the game as a whole will offer. But like I said, I tend to be more of an optimist.



I wouldn't say he's glass half empty, as much as he is a sophist or someone who doesn't really want developers to "settle."

But in this case I think that you're both right. I think it will be a pretty good game overall, but I don't think that the combat will be what puts it over the top.

Again, we really don't know how combat is going to be until it comes out. I'd love for it to be innovative and fun, and I think at the very least it will be better than 1.0, but it's most likely not to break any sorts of molds here.

Plus...when the game comes out and the combat is awesome , unique and fun; if we all take the half glass empty approach, we'll all be pleasantly surprised. :)
#25 May 28 2013 at 7:17 PM Rating: Good
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Kierk wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
It will probably still be an okay game for what it is, but in terms of gameplay I wouldn't expect much more than generic.


Of course you wouldn't, you're a very "glass half empty" kind of person. I tend to be more optimistic and think that the gameplay, while probably not some insanely revolutionary and game changing idea, will not just be "generic" and "okay". I think it will be quite good, and hopefully build off the absolutely gorgeous world, the seemingly endless FF lore thrown in, and the diverse experience the game as a whole will offer. But like I said, I tend to be more of an optimist.



I wouldn't say he's glass half empty, as much as he is a sophist or someone who doesn't really want developers to "settle."

But in this case I think that you're both right. I think it will be a pretty good game overall, but I don't think that the combat will be what puts it over the top.

Again, we really don't know how combat is going to be until it comes out. I'd love for it to be innovative and fun, and I think at the very least it will be better than 1.0, but it's most likely not to break any sorts of molds here.

Plus...when the game comes out and the combat is awesome , unique and fun; if we all take the half glass empty approach, we'll all be pleasantly surprised. :)


As far as combat is concerned, I agree that it will probably be rather generic, as so far I don't think that's where Yoshi and the staff have really been pushing the innovation. Kachi specifically mentioned gameplay though, which I think is pretty different from just combat, and there's where the disagreement lies. I suppose I'm being a bit too semantic with it, but I tend to do that... my bad.

As for your last paragraph, that is a very valid point. You'd think after getting burned with 1.0 I'd be more pessimistic in my views, but it's just not the type of person I am. I'd rather look at something with a positive spin, rather than just assume it's going to be okay or generic. I could be dead wrong, and I'm sure there's people on here who think I am, but that's the beauty of having an opinion... it differs for each individual based on their own experiences.

Edited, May 28th 2013 9:18pm by BartelX
#26 May 28 2013 at 7:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Parathyroid wrote:
AlexandEric wrote:
Dizmo wrote:
I'm a bit worried about the development team filling the game with thousands of trivial generic fetch/kill quests, mistakenly thinking that this qualifies as content. FFXI had lots of quests that felt like they had some substance to them, often full of quality backround lore or challenge. On the other hand I can't even remember a single quest from any other MMO I've played - they're just totally throwaway.

Unfortunately this seems to be the case in my month long beta testing. Though i will and can say they have some kinda cool quests for instance the one IN Gridania where you have to cheer a little girl up using emotes. Never had to use emotes in a quest before..


I think this is very important to this games ultimate success or failure. SE is at a point where they are trying to appease both hardcore and casual gamers... it will be up to them to find the appropriate mix which makes the game enjoyable for everyone.


I don't think it's a matter of casual or hardcore. It's more about trying to dumb things down to the lowest common denominator, while simultaneously cutting down on work. I think this is a misguided plan though, considering this is 2013, and the public has already been bombarded with WoW and WoW style games for 9 years and isn't likely to be excited for another. But I guess there's enough untouched market in Japan that isn't even aware of WoW and its spinoffs (except maybe TERA) to support the game. I presume this is their primary target.

I'm a casual gamer myself nowadays - I only have an hour or two to play each day nowadays, but you can bet I'll be spending that time on the game that offers the most rich gaming experience, not the one that is 90% menial tasks. "Casual" shouldn't mean pathetically easy and lacking in substance, it should just mean that you can get chunks of stuff done within an hour or two.

Edited, May 28th 2013 9:40pm by Dizmo
#27 May 28 2013 at 7:43 PM Rating: Good
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Dizmo wrote:
Parathyroid wrote:
AlexandEric wrote:
Dizmo wrote:
I'm a bit worried about the development team filling the game with thousands of trivial generic fetch/kill quests, mistakenly thinking that this qualifies as content. FFXI had lots of quests that felt like they had some substance to them, often full of quality backround lore or challenge. On the other hand I can't even remember a single quest from any other MMO I've played - they're just totally throwaway.

Unfortunately this seems to be the case in my month long beta testing. Though i will and can say they have some kinda cool quests for instance the one IN Gridania where you have to cheer a little girl up using emotes. Never had to use emotes in a quest before..


I think this is very important to this games ultimate success or failure. SE is at a point where they are trying to appease both hardcore and casual gamers... it will be up to them to find the appropriate mix which makes the game enjoyable for everyone.


I don't think it's a matter of casual or hardcore. It's more about trying to dumb things down to the lowest common denominator, while simultaneously cutting down on work. I think this is a misguided plan though, considering this is 2013, and the public has already been bombarded with WoW and WoW style games for 9 years and isn't likely to be excited for another. But I guess there's enough untouched market in Japan that isn't even aware of WoW and its spinoffs (except maybe TERA) to support the game.

I'm a casual gamer myself nowadays - I only have an hour or two to play each day nowadays, but you can bet I'll be spending that time on the game that offers the most rich gaming experience, not the one that is 90% menial tasks. "Casual" shouldn't mean pathetically easy and lacking in substance, it should just mean that you can get chunks of stuff done within an hour or two.

Edited, May 28th 2013 9:36pm by Dizmo


Let me preface by saying I haven't played WoW in over 3 years... however, when I did play, there was plenty of content that wasn't pathetically easy. ICC in it's prime was actually quite challenging, especially the "Hard Mode". Perhaps they've completely dumbed the game down since, but I'm more apt to believe that it's just common misconception where people associate WoW with easy mode. I don't think there's ever been an interview or piece of information that would indicate that the endgame in ARR will be easy. In fact, it seems quite the opposite. Crystal Tower and Maze of Bahamut don't sound like easy content to me. They sound like stuff that will require quite a bit of progression to even enter and have a chance of beating.

If it's anything like the videos I saw of 1.0 before servers went down, I don't think it will be all that forgiving. Some of those battles look like they required quite a bit of coordination and timing. Hopefully that is continued over to ARR.
#28 May 28 2013 at 7:44 PM Rating: Good
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Dizmo wrote:
"Casual" shouldn't mean pathetically easy and lacking in substance, it should just mean that you can get chunks of stuff done within an hour or two.]


Exactly. That's a point that's missed on a lot of people.
#29 May 28 2013 at 7:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
Kierk wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
It will probably still be an okay game for what it is, but in terms of gameplay I wouldn't expect much more than generic.


Of course you wouldn't, you're a very "glass half empty" kind of person. I tend to be more optimistic and think that the gameplay, while probably not some insanely revolutionary and game changing idea, will not just be "generic" and "okay". I think it will be quite good, and hopefully build off the absolutely gorgeous world, the seemingly endless FF lore thrown in, and the diverse experience the game as a whole will offer. But like I said, I tend to be more of an optimist.



I wouldn't say he's glass half empty, as much as he is a sophist or someone who doesn't really want developers to "settle."

But in this case I think that you're both right. I think it will be a pretty good game overall, but I don't think that the combat will be what puts it over the top.

Again, we really don't know how combat is going to be until it comes out. I'd love for it to be innovative and fun, and I think at the very least it will be better than 1.0, but it's most likely not to break any sorts of molds here.

Plus...when the game comes out and the combat is awesome , unique and fun; if we all take the half glass empty approach, we'll all be pleasantly surprised. :)


As far as combat is concerned, I agree that it will probably be rather generic, as so far I don't think that's where Yoshi and the staff have really been pushing the innovation. Kachi specifically mentioned gameplay though, which I think is pretty different from just combat, and there's where the disagreement lies. I suppose I'm being a bit too semantic with it, but I tend to do that... my bad.

As for your last paragraph, that is a very valid point. You'd think after getting burned with 1.0 I'd be more pessimistic in my views, but it's just not the type of person I am. I'd rather look at something with a positive spin, rather than just assume it's going to be okay or generic. I could be dead wrong, and I'm sure there's people on here who think I am, but that's the beauty of having an opinion... it differs for each individual based on their own experiences.

Edited, May 28th 2013 9:18pm by BartelX


In terms of how 2.0 relates to 1.0 I think it will be a success.. In terms of how it stands against other MMOs I think it will be a solid entry but by no means innovative. Which is fine for me because I don't play every MMO that comes out. I only stick to FF MMOs (aside from a 2 month stint of Cabal which I loved the over the top attacks lol). I have found that the more MMOs and games you play the harder it is to keep that magic and newness. Kinda like drugs lol. Always looking for that first high. That first newness experience like me and my first rpg FF7. Its harder to enjoy MMOs when you've played so many. Its not new for you anymore.. So I make it a point not to play too many MMOs.

Sorry got a little off track lol.
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#30 May 28 2013 at 7:51 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
It will probably still be an okay game for what it is, but in terms of gameplay I wouldn't expect much more than generic.


Of course you wouldn't, you're a very "glass half empty" kind of person. I tend to be more optimistic and think that the gameplay, while probably not some insanely revolutionary and game changing idea, will not just be "generic" and "okay". I think it will be quite good, and hopefully build off the absolutely gorgeous world, the seemingly endless FF lore thrown in, and the diverse experience the game as a whole will offer. But like I said, I tend to be more of an optimist.


Are those in the beta able to comment on the depth of the game thus far? I for one feel this is one of the most important issues facing this game. The way that questing is managed stands to affect the sucsuccess or failure of the game.

#31 May 28 2013 at 7:59 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:

Let me preface by saying I haven't played WoW in over 3 years... however, when I did play, there was plenty of content that wasn't pathetically easy. ICC in it's prime was actually quite challenging, especially the "Hard Mode". Perhaps they've completely dumbed the game down since, but I'm more apt to believe that it's just common misconception where people associate WoW with easy mode. I don't think there's ever been an interview or piece of information that would indicate that the endgame in ARR will be easy. In fact, it seems quite the opposite. Crystal Tower and Maze of Bahamut don't sound like easy content to me. They sound like stuff that will require quite a bit of progression to even enter and have a chance of beating.

If it's anything like the videos I saw of 1.0 before servers went down, I don't think it will be all that forgiving. Some of those battles look like they required quite a bit of coordination and timing. Hopefully that is continued over to ARR.


Yeah, I know, though I'm mostly talking about pre-end game. Most players will shape their opinions of the game before they reach the level cap.

Edited, May 28th 2013 9:59pm by Dizmo
#32 May 28 2013 at 8:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wint can, but we can only talk about character creation and Gridania.

Gridania's NPCs have a lot of depth. Some of their personal stories are heartbreaking, like the guy sitting where the ampitheater used to be. He says he lost his whole family in the Bahamut attack and has nothing left. Smiley: frown
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#33 May 28 2013 at 8:04 PM Rating: Good
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Dizmo wrote:
BartelX wrote:

Let me preface by saying I haven't played WoW in over 3 years... however, when I did play, there was plenty of content that wasn't pathetically easy. ICC in it's prime was actually quite challenging, especially the "Hard Mode". Perhaps they've completely dumbed the game down since, but I'm more apt to believe that it's just common misconception where people associate WoW with easy mode. I don't think there's ever been an interview or piece of information that would indicate that the endgame in ARR will be easy. In fact, it seems quite the opposite. Crystal Tower and Maze of Bahamut don't sound like easy content to me. They sound like stuff that will require quite a bit of progression to even enter and have a chance of beating.

If it's anything like the videos I saw of 1.0 before servers went down, I don't think it will be all that forgiving. Some of those battles look like they required quite a bit of coordination and timing. Hopefully that is continued over to ARR.


Yeah, I know, though I'm mostly talking about pre-end game. Most players will shape their opinions of the game before they reach the level cap.

Edited, May 28th 2013 9:59pm by Dizmo


Gotcha. Unfortunately, that's just the trend with mmo's where the leveling process seems to have been cast aside in favor of a compelling endgame (minus swtor, which is the reverse). I'm hoping ARR can achieve somewhat of an equilibrium, and I do think it's possible given the number of different activities available. I'm hopeful anyways.
#34 May 28 2013 at 9:07 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
It will probably still be an okay game for what it is, but in terms of gameplay I wouldn't expect much more than generic.


Of course you wouldn't, you're a very "glass half empty" kind of person. I tend to be more optimistic and think that the gameplay, while probably not some insanely revolutionary and game changing idea, will not just be "generic" and "okay". I think it will be quite good, and hopefully build off the absolutely gorgeous world, the seemingly endless FF lore thrown in, and the diverse experience the game as a whole will offer. But like I said, I tend to be more of an optimist.


I'm optimistic that it will rain tomorrow. I'm optimistic that people will starve to death tomorrow. Bad things will happen. It's not a matter of perspective, but prediction. In cases like these, my predictions are irrelevant. They change nothing. So there is no particular reason for these predictions to color my feelings. If FFXIV is bad, I will do other things with my time, and that is all. I'm not telling people what they should feel, or even what I feel--only what I think will happen.

I'm optimistic about many things, but they're usually things that are either within my own control or within the hands of those that I trust (though I always account for the possibility for failure). I see no reason to bet on horses with poor or questionable records. That said, I'm not a betting man at all, so I have nothing riding on whether the game does well or not. I hope it does well. My ability to recognize patterns and extrapolate them into eventualities leads me to believe that the gameplay will be mediocre. Maybe it won't be! But if I had to bet, which I don't, then I would bet that it will be pretty average. That's not pessimism or optimism. That's just statistics (mediocrity is definitively the norm) informed by data.

Gameplay isn't absolutely everything though, and mediocre gameplay can be redeemed by compelling narrative. That's why I concede that it could still be an okay game.

Point being, it's a mistake to infer anything about my personality based on what is really a pretty dry and unfelt analysis on my part. This is just speculation to me, trying to improve my own abilities, and tease out any weaknesses.
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#35 May 28 2013 at 9:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
I'm optimistic that it will rain tomorrow. I'm optimistic that people will starve to death tomorrow. Bad things will happen. It's not a matter of perspective, but prediction.


That's not optimism, or it's a very jaded view of it at best. At it's core, optimism is about interpreting events and situations with the best possible outcome, and I find it hard to believe that death and starvation are a best possible outcome in any situation. I think we both know that. At least, I hope we both do...

Kachi wrote:
But if I had to bet, which I don't, then I would bet that it will be pretty average. That's not pessimism or optimism. That's just statistics (mediocrity is definitively the norm) informed by data.


That's not statistics either. Statistics are based on a probability of an outcome based on numbers/data. What data are you talking about? The game hasn't been released, it's not even in the 3rd stage of beta yet where 2/3 of the content is being added. Since there is really no current data, you can only make an uneducated guess. You're predictions are not based on facts. They are based on past opinions from yourself and possibly others you've found with a similar viewpoint as yourself. Even if it were the majority, it is not fact, and I think/hope you know it.

Kachi wrote:
Gameplay isn't absolutely everything though, and mediocre gameplay can be redeemed by compelling narrative. That's why I concede that it could still be an okay game.


I'm sorry, is the narrative no longer part of the gameplay of a game? When did that happen? Last I checked, gameplay entails pretty much the entirety of the game. If we are going by the actual definition of the word, gameplay means the plot of a video game and the way in which it is played. If the two are separate, perhaps you should have used a different term or better defined the parameters of gameplay so that others would know what you are trying to infer.

Kachi wrote:
Point being, it's a mistake to infer anything about my personality based on what is really a pretty dry and unfelt analysis on my part. This is just speculation to me, trying to improve my own abilities, and tease out any weaknesses.


I don't feel I'm trying to infer anything. You yourself pointed out that there have been very few games in recent memory that you have considered good. I'm not going to go digging through threads, but I distinctly remember you making that assessment when someone asked you that very question. Speculation is one thing, trying to pass it off as statistical proof is another.


Edited, May 29th 2013 7:35am by BartelX
#36 May 29 2013 at 4:39 AM Rating: Good
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I'm just expecting, or rather hoping, for a better playing experience.
#37 May 29 2013 at 5:04 AM Rating: Good
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"BarteX" wrote:
I'm sorry, is the narrative no longer part of the gameplay of a game? When did that happen?


I always thought that when people mention gameplay they mean the actual game mechanics, ie. not the story, graphics, socialisation elements.

Basically the rules of the game that give rise to challenge, and implementation thereof. The bits that differentiate it from being a 3D chat room/visual novel.
#38 May 29 2013 at 5:31 AM Rating: Good
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I've always considered the story/plot/narrative as part of the gameplay. I know wikipedia isn't the most reliable resource ever, but even that says that gameplay includes game rules, plot, player interaction, etc. Regardless, even if we aren't including the narrative, I still don't think the gameplay as a whole will be generic simply because the battle mechanics might be. Heck, even battles will have stuff like party-wide limit breaks to differentiate it a bit from other games. Plus the whole idea of a separate job/class system for solo/party is something you don't see in most games.
#39 May 29 2013 at 5:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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The draw for me to FFXI and XIV is that you can level every job on the same character. I remember trying WoW after having played XI for a while and being annoyed that you could only pick one job and that was it.
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#40 May 29 2013 at 7:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, that's always bothered me in other mmo's too. One of the worst offenders is lotro, where you have to grind deeds and virtues on every character over and over if you want to have the best stats for it. And some of those grinds like "Kill 240 Trolls in the Trollshaws" take forever. Incredibly annoying.
#41 May 29 2013 at 7:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Kachi wrote:
I'm optimistic that it will rain tomorrow. I'm optimistic that people will starve to death tomorrow. Bad things will happen. It's not a matter of perspective, but prediction.


That's not optimism, or it's a very jaded view of it at best. At it's core, optimism is about interpreting events and situations with the best possible outcome, and I find it hard to believe that death and starvation are a best possible outcome in any situation. I think we both know that. At least, I hope we both do...


You're missing my point. You're attributing to optimism/pessimism what is merely an attempt at prediction/speculation. That suggests that FFXIV's success or failure has personal meaning to you. To me, it doesn't. I would like for it to succeed, but am not invested either way. If it fails, it won't bother me the least little bit. Ergo, it's not pessimism.

Optimism, btw, is not about predicting the best outcome to a situation. It is merely taking a positive (or even non-negative) point of view on the situation. For me, if FFXIV is an awful mess, my life will be completely unharmed, which is a positive point of view. It's a well-studied quality in the positive psychology movement, which incidentally is related to my own field of the study of play.

Quote:
Kachi wrote:
But if I had to bet, which I don't, then I would bet that it will be pretty average. That's not pessimism or optimism. That's just statistics (mediocrity is definitively the norm) informed by data.


That's not statistics either. Statistics are based on a probability of an outcome based on numbers/data. What data are you talking about? The game hasn't been released, it's not even in the 3rd stage of beta yet where 2/3 of the content is being added. Since there is really no current data, you can only make an uneducated guess. You're predictions are not based on facts. They are based on past opinions from yourself and possibly others you've found with a similar viewpoint as yourself. Even if it were the majority, it is not fact, and I think/hope you know it.


There is data about the game mechanics. It is not finalized, but it is within a finalized window. It will not deviate drastically from what we already know, which, if what we already know is rather similar to most other games (which it is), then we can consider it generic. That data about the game mechanics DOES convey a probability, whether you would like to acknowledge it or not. It does not paint a complete picture in any way--a generic game can even be a smashing success depending on excellent execution of the concept.

Statistical prediction does not require all the data to be complete--by definition, it is used when the data is incomplete. We have complete data on many other MMOs. But really, all I was saying is that statistically speaking, most things are very average--i.e., mediocre. You've seen a bell curve before? Roughly 65% of games are going to be mediocre by default. A 6/7 in game ratings is not to scale, afterall. Realistically, a 6/7 is a 5.

Quote:
Kachi wrote:
Gameplay isn't absolutely everything though, and mediocre gameplay can be redeemed by compelling narrative. That's why I concede that it could still be an okay game.


I'm sorry, is the narrative no longer part of the gameplay of a game? When did that happen? Last I checked, gameplay entails pretty much the entirety of the game. If we are going by the actual definition of the word, gameplay means the plot of a video game and the way in which it is played. If the two are separate, perhaps you should have used a different term or better defined the parameters of gameplay so that others would know what you are trying to infer.


Design-wise, the narrative is a distinct incentive structure that isn't considered a part of the gameplay for one simple reason: we use it to refer to the part of the game you don't PLAY. While gameplay should tie into the narrative to produce a cohesive experience, players watch or read story. They don't play it. So in that regard, no, narrative is not considered part of the gameplay. Gameplay refers specifically to the challenging interactive mechanisms of the game, whether they require reflexive or strategic problem solving.

Kachi wrote:
Point being, it's a mistake to infer anything about my personality based on what is really a pretty dry and unfelt analysis on my part. This is just speculation to me, trying to improve my own abilities, and tease out any weaknesses.


Quote:
I don't feel I'm trying to infer anything. You yourself pointed out that there have been very few games in recent memory that you have considered good. I'm not going to go digging through threads, but I distinctly remember you making that assessment when someone asked you that very question. Speculation is one thing, trying to pass it off as statistical proof is another.


Then you completely misunderstood the point I was making (or more likely, you don't understand statistics). Statistics are used for speculation. They predict things, but do not generally prove things.

Also, I only said that I hadn't played any good games in recent memory, but I don't play many games to begin with. I know that there are excellent games being made. Based on the information I have, I simply have no reason to believe that FFXIV will be excellent, or even very good. It could be, but that is not what I'm predicting.

Hopefully all of this will help you understand where I'm coming from a bit better. I'd rather not get into another blow-by-blow about it, at least.

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#42 May 29 2013 at 8:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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At some point, someone REALLY needs to define gameplay, utility, movement, control, etc. so people stop bickering over the many different similar but different meanings they have.
#43 May 29 2013 at 8:31 AM Rating: Good
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I've decided to move this to PM, since I doubt anyone in the forum cares about our views on statistics and optimism.

The only thing I'm going to keep here is this:

Kachi wrote:
Then you completely misunderstood the point I was making (or more likely, you don't understand statistics).


It's interesting how whenever someone doesn't agree with you, they are just missing your point or too stupid to understand... it couldn't possibly be that we just have differing opinions on the matter. Smiley: rolleyes

Edited, May 29th 2013 10:35am by BartelX
#44 May 29 2013 at 8:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
I've decided to move this to PM, since I doubt anyone in the forum cares about our views on statistics and optimism.

The only thing I'm going to keep here is this:

Kachi wrote:
Then you completely misunderstood the point I was making (or more likely, you don't understand statistics).


It's interesting how whenever someone doesn't agree with you, they are just missing your point or too stupid to understand... it couldn't possibly be that we just have differing opinions on the matter. Smiley: rolleyes

Edited, May 29th 2013 10:35am by BartelX


Three cheers for discretion lol
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#45 May 29 2013 at 8:40 AM Rating: Good
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Smiley: lol I was just imagining Wint reading my 8 paragraph rant and the wrath that might follow. Smiley: motzSmiley: bangheadSmiley: motz



Edited, May 29th 2013 10:41am by BartelX
#46 May 29 2013 at 8:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
Smiley: lol I was just imagining Wint reading my 8 paragraph rant and the wrath that might follow. Smiley: motzSmiley: bangheadSmiley: motz



Edited, May 29th 2013 10:41am by BartelX


Smiley: nod
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#47Killua125, Posted: May 29 2013 at 9:28 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm not very optimistic. I can't even work up the strength to look up any latest information. I'll give phase 3 a look over... I'm not that impressed and I realized that it'll be a year before we see the jobs like Ninja or Dark Knight.
#48 May 29 2013 at 9:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
I'm not very optimistic. I can't even work up the strength to look up any latest information. I'll give phase 3 a look over... I'm not that impressed and I realized that it'll be a year before we see the jobs like Ninja or Dark Knight.


The game won't be for everyone, and that's completely ok.
#49 May 29 2013 at 9:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
I'm not very optimistic. I can't even work up the strength to look up any latest information. I'll give phase 3 a look over... I'm not that impressed and I realized that it'll be a year before we see the jobs like Ninja or Dark Knight.


Someone please insert an emo gif here.. Your post with the added mention of wanting Dark Knight.. it all makes so much sense now.

Edited, May 29th 2013 11:40am by Louiscool
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#50 May 29 2013 at 9:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
I'm not very optimistic. I can't even work up the strength to look up any latest information. I'll give phase 3 a look over... I'm not that impressed and I realized that it'll be a year before we see the jobs like Ninja or Dark Knight.
Screenshot

Your post with the added mention of wanting Dark Knight.. it all makes so much sense now.
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#51 May 29 2013 at 10:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Just to touch on something kachi and X touched on, Gameplay is everything in an MMO, it's the meat of the game, if it is mediocre, the rest of the experience is affected by it. Do not dismiss gameplay in a MMO as a backseat element to story telling.
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