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#52 May 29 2013 at 10:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
I'm not very optimistic. I can't even work up the strength to look up any latest information. I'll give phase 3 a look over... I'm not that impressed and I realized that it'll be a year before we see the jobs like Ninja or Dark Knight.


Someone please insert an emo gif here.. Your post with the added mention of wanting Dark Knight.. it all makes so much sense now.

Edited, May 29th 2013 11:40am by Louiscool


lolgaxe wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
I'm not very optimistic. I can't even work up the strength to look up any latest information. I'll give phase 3 a look over... I'm not that impressed and I realized that it'll be a year before we see the jobs like Ninja or Dark Knight.
Screenshot

Your post with the added mention of wanting Dark Knight.. it all makes so much sense now.


+1
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#53 May 29 2013 at 10:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's the marriage of the two, the story and the gameplay, that has made or broken each Final Fantasy game. XIII had a great story but the gameplay on it was pretty difficult which is why it's generally not on the top three of anyone's favorite FF games. X had a very good gameplay system, but many folks found the characters annoying and the story confusing. (I like it, but even I admit that Tidus laughing ranks as the #1 most painful moment in video game voice acting.) XI has a kickass story, which was one reason so many people suffered through the difficult gameplay in the Bad Old Days, and thankfully gameplay has improved greatly over the last decade.

Games like VI and VII found the balance between good story and good gameplay. ARR has to do the same to be a success.
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#54Killua125, Posted: May 29 2013 at 11:53 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It's not my biggest complaint, but yeah, it IS depressing that 3 years after the release of this game, I still won't be able to play as some of the major Final Fantasy jobs like Ninja, Dark Knight, Red Mage, and so on. Those probably won't be added until Thief and Musketeer (or whatever it's called).
#55 May 29 2013 at 12:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
It's not my biggest complaint, but yeah, it IS depressing that 3 years after the release of this game, I still won't be able to play as some of the major Final Fantasy jobs like Ninja, Dark Knight, Red Mage, and so on. Those probably won't be added until Thief and Musketeer (or whatever it's called).

We probably won't be seeing some of those big Final Fantasy jobs for years if ever, and even then Yoshi-P's "vision" of Red Mage might be a gun wielding dancer if his interpretation of Bard is anything to go by.


Seriously, why are you so depressingly negative? Like where does this sh*t come from?

Your complaint is they don't have "the major" jobs like Dark Knight and Ninja? They have all the major jobs now. Warrior, White Mage, Black Mage. Those I would consider "Core." (Though Thf is also core and missing.)

Additionally, they are adding 1 (but most likely 2) new jobs before release. But somehow, this isn't fast enough for you, and any future jobs are YEARS away? And you're still a salty dog about Bard not being exactly how you want it despite never having played it.

Nothing is depressing about the job lineup not being large enough for you. I think you need to cheer up, even if this game isn't for you.

Edited, May 29th 2013 2:20pm by Louiscool
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#56 May 29 2013 at 12:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
We probably won't be seeing some of those big Final Fantasy jobs for years if ever, and even then Yoshi-P's "vision" of Red Mage might be a gun wielding dancer if his interpretation of Bard is anything to go by.


Smiley: lol Heaven forbid he try and change things up and make some of the classes different than what has been done in other FF games. It's funny, people whine and complain about how the game is using ideas from other mmos, and then those same people whine and complain when he goes outside the box to design jobs a bit differently. I for one think it's really cool how bard was made, and it actually makes sense.

And really, Edward the Bard in FF4, has a somewhat similar feel to the way bard plays in XIV. He used harps as well as a bow and arrow for damage, could heal companions with salve, and had songs which gave out status effects.
#57 May 29 2013 at 12:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
(I like it, but even I admit that Tidus laughing ranks as the #1 most painful moment in video game voice acting.)


I'm guessing you've never played Star Ocean: The Last Hope. Basically anything Edge Maverick does after Aeos trumps the Tidus laugh in terms of awful. Don't even get me started on Limle or Sarah...
#58 May 29 2013 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
I've decided to move this to PM, since I doubt anyone in the forum cares about our views on statistics and optimism.

The only thing I'm going to keep here is this:

Kachi wrote:
Then you completely misunderstood the point I was making (or more likely, you don't understand statistics).


It's interesting how whenever someone doesn't agree with you, they are just missing your point or too stupid to understand... it couldn't possibly be that we just have differing opinions on the matter. Smiley: rolleyes

Edited, May 29th 2013 10:35am by BartelX


First of all, I never intended to suggest that you were stupid. MOST people don't understand statistics. It's not an insult. Nor is it intended as an insult that you missed my point. It suggests some level of failure on my part to communicate effectively. You seem to be very defensive about my posts lately, and I've tried (unsuccessfully, apparently) to convey that I'm in no way attacking you by virtue of disagreeing with you. From my perspective, I'm just engaging in friendly conversation, and you seem to be taking things personally. I'm not trying to put the blame on you for that. I'm just trying to help you understand that that's not the way I am, period.


I believe it was Kierk who hit the nail on the head. I'm a sophist. I'm here for the analysis. Not to bring doom and gloom. Not to be a cheerleader for the game--just to explore it for the interesting case study in game development that it is.

Now, I am going to express some grievances, again, very matter-of-factly, and you can take whichever road you wish. I'm not mad at you, attacking you, etc... just expressing my disapproval, and hoping you're a mature and respectful enough person to acknowledge that for what it is and react accordingly. That's generally the way I work.

So here goes: I don't appreciate that you generalize the way I deal with disagreement when I NEVER do that. You don't have to look hard to see that in the vast majority of conflicts here, I usually keep a level head and offer an evenhanded opinion. If nothing else, I never insult people just for disagreeing with me. I attack people who are disrespectful and can't conduct a discussion constructively, so I don't appreciate being accused of something that is the opposite of what I stand for. If you're honestly trying to accuse me of that, you haven't been paying attention to my posts here.

Secondly, in all that you wrote that actually applies to the game, you PM -that-, which is at least germane to discussion about XIV, and you leave public the part of your post which makes a personal slight. I am very much of the opinion that it should be the other way around. If you take personal issue with me, I'm happy to discuss it privately, as it should be done. If you want to discuss the game with me, I'm happy to discuss it publicly, because that's what the forum is for.

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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

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Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#59 May 29 2013 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:

It suggests some level of failure on my part to communicate effectively. You seem to be very defensive about my posts lately, and I've tried (unsuccessfully, apparently) to convey that I'm in no way attacking you by virtue of disagreeing with you. From my perspective, I'm just engaging in friendly conversation, and you seem to be taking things personally.


It took me a while to understand this about Kachi's posts, lol.
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#60 May 29 2013 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
We probably won't be seeing some of those big Final Fantasy jobs for years if ever, and even then Yoshi-P's "vision" of Red Mage might be a gun wielding dancer if his interpretation of Bard is anything to go by.


Smiley: lol Heaven forbid he try and change things up and make some of the classes different than what has been done in other FF games. It's funny, people whine and complain about how the game is using ideas from other mmos, and then those same people whine and complain when he goes outside the box to design jobs a bit differently. I for one think it's really cool how bard was made, and it actually makes sense.

And really, Edward the Bard in FF4, has a somewhat similar feel to the way bard plays in XIV. He used harps as well as a bow and arrow for damage, could heal companions with salve, and had songs which gave out status effects.


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#61 May 29 2013 at 1:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi- I have no problems with you. I took what I said to PM because I really didn't think the forum needed to hear us argue the semantics of optimism or the evidence of statistics in a game that hasn't even launched yet. I myself got bored re-reading the post, hence why I removed it. I left the part I did because I felt what you said was very condescending towards me specifically. You know nothing of my background in Statistics. Had you asked, I would have told you that I took AP Stats in high school and received a 5 on the AP exam, and then used every elective I had in college taking more Statistics related classes. I actually love it and most general math, which is also why I was confused as to how you were incorporating statistics into your analysis of the gameplay for a game that hasn't even launched.

You made an assumption about me, and whether or not you meant it that way, it came off condescending and rude to me. I realize it's more than likely just a misunderstanding, so next time just leave it at that. It wasn't me getting defensive, it was me trying to show you that your wording wasn't called for. If you feel I've been defensive towards your posts, I apologize. I can often come off as an abrasive person, it's just a part of my personality. Really though, I'd like to just put the whole matter to rest and move on.

edit: also, I'd just like you to know that I have not been the one rating down your posts, and really wish the whole rate down button was removed. People abuse it simply when they don't agree with someone and it really stinks. I will be a man and say that I used to do it back in the day, and I'm rather ashamed of it, which is why I refuse to use it regardless of how much I may dislike a post.

Edited, May 29th 2013 3:56pm by BartelX
#62 May 29 2013 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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Hard for expectations to be high when you really don't have much in the way of expectations to begin with.

As far as arguing gameplay. Gameplay will and always be a point of contention for people no matter what. A game can never appeal to everyone, therefore those who do not like certain design decisions will, without fail, complain about them fully confident that their opinions are valid above and beyond those who enjoy the current mechanics.

Then, if the mechanics are changed in any way, you will shift said bases. So it becomes a catch 22 situation in gameplay mechanics.

This is why, in spite of the fact that you cannot ignore gameplay, Square Enix needs to stick to its strong suits - their story. So long as the game functions properly, game mechanics can be further tweaked as the game itself grows and develops. World of Warcraft has done this many times in its nearing 11 year life span, and I suspect A Realm Reborn will be no different in this regard.

The storyies, however, do not change - you just add more of them. This is why story, lore, the richness of the environment as a work of fiction must be gripping on the onset. So long as the mechanics are not crippling as they were in 1.0, people will play through and demand adjustments as they praise the story.

Idealy, you get both right or within the best approximation possible. But if we're debating priority, my opinion puts story in the higher seat. Gameplay needs to be good, but it can be adjusted. Stories... they really can't.
#63 May 29 2013 at 3:39 PM Rating: Good
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@Bartel: I'm copacetic with all that. Mainly I just wanted you to know where I was coming from because I felt that something which shouldn't be the least bit personal was starting to become so.

Quote:
As far as arguing gameplay. Gameplay will and always be a point of contention for people no matter what. A game can never appeal to everyone, therefore those who do not like certain design decisions will, without fail, complain about them fully confident that their opinions are valid above and beyond those who enjoy the current mechanics.

Then, if the mechanics are changed in any way, you will shift said bases. So it becomes a catch 22 situation in gameplay mechanics.


It's true that gameplay can never appeal to anyone, but it's also true that it can always appeal to more people. That's why the best games offer lots of choices, especially regarding difficulty. Much of whether something is fun or not simply depends on matching the difficulty to the player's skill level. When the difficulty of your game content is static, you will inevitably fail to appease large portions of your population. Unfortunately most MMOs are this way, and if they do try to address it, they take the flawed approach of assuming that they should be creating separate content for separate audiences (e.g., casual v hardcore) rather than making all high-polished content accessible to players, as many incredibly successful (non-MMO) titles have demonstrated before.

As for the importance of gameplay vs. story-- I agree that the overall narrative is irreparably important, because if you cannot make me care about the world and characters, then the gameplay is probably not orienting towards the achievement of goals. If I don't care what happens, I can't care about the gameplay even if it is otherwise good. Having said that, especially in games like MMOs, players spend vastly more time engaged with the gameplay with the story, so I can't agree with your conclusion.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#64 May 29 2013 at 5:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have to admit, I'm feeling a lot more confident about this game. I've also been following some of the 'spirited' conversations in this thread thus far and have actually found them more amusing than annoying especially since no one broke out into short angry "You're Wrong, I'm right" "Your Mother" arguments. I don't think gameplay won't be as big an issue at least when I initially thought because my expectations were somewhere along the lines of how they played .Hack and Sword Art Online in the manga >.> With the wide variety of opinions and doubts that I share with some people, I think this game will turn out pretty well. If the community reflects even a portion of those on here, it will be pretty entertaining to say the least. xP
#65 May 29 2013 at 5:20 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
As for the importance of gameplay vs. story-- I agree that the overall narrative is irreparably important, because if you cannot make me care about the world and characters, then the gameplay is probably not orienting towards the achievement of goals. If I don't care what happens, I can't care about the gameplay even if it is otherwise good. Having said that, especially in games like MMOs, players spend vastly more time engaged with the gameplay with the story, so I can't agree with your conclusion.


This is very true. The best example I can think that I've played is Rage. The gameplay and mechanics were excellent but the story was both hella short and kinda boring. Now, if it had had a great story like Fallout 3 it would have been awesome.
#66 May 29 2013 at 5:24 PM Rating: Good
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Well in MMO'S Content is King! And gameplay is medium in which content is experienced, in the grand scheme of things, a story is essential to a good MMO, but is not the break it or make it deal, that some people make it out to Be. Take Swotor for example, they took a Story > Gameplay aproach, and whil their story lines and story based content where excellent, the gameplay, was crap and unbalanced, no amount of good writing or voice overs, saved them Smiley: lol On the other hand, you got World of Warcraft, a game with excellent gameplay, but most would agree, a sub par story delivery system, the game has a story, and a very good at that, but is not the focus of the game, their aproach is "Let's make the game fun, the mechanics have to be fun, whatever we do, the gameplay must be enjoyable at all times" and as a bonus you get some story's told, here and there.. And it's the most successful MMO in history Smiley: lol

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#67 May 29 2013 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Well in MMO'S Content is King!


Story is content. SWToR's issue wasn't the fact that their gameplay was poor. IT was the fact that their gameplay did. not. exist. There was no endgame. Same problem with Guild Wars 2 which is now funneled into anything that closely resembles endgame as opposed to the widely distributed game they had hoped to create.

FFXIV has no concerns in this regard, there is a very clear endgame in Crystal Tower and Laberynth of Bahamut, at least in terms of projections. Beyond that, there's Primals that continued.


You cite the story of World of Warcraft as a minus and their gameplay as a plus. But in their introduction the opposite was true. Their creation and expansion onto the Warcraft Universe drew in it's early adapter audience, and their endgame was almost as sparse and lacking as FFXI's was on launch.

To clarify, I'm not saying the content can ignore being fun. But I do want to correct the conception that story was mostly ignored in World of Warcraft, which its success is attributed to a grand ton of factors, most of which are merely speculated upon as a continent argumentative scapegoat and rarely are they accurate.

If anything, many cite the fact that Yoshida talking to many of the Blizzard developers of WoW was a negative.

So this is all a mixed soup of deep-seeded opinions that, honestly, I hope Yoshida pretty much makes his own judgement on. But as far as I remember in his older interviews, his prorities are fairly clear:
This is a Final Fantasy game.
This is a Role Playing game.
This is a Massive Multiplayer game.

In that order.

Final Fantasy's strongest suit is Storytelling. If they let that suffer, they lose their install base. So they absolutely, cannot neglect that. When they called it Final Fantasy, that became a default expectation for many fans, MMO or otherwise. Now, I understand your emphasis on game-play but I personally think it's foolish to go for WoW's numbers or WoW's exact approach. Too many have tried and failed miserably duplicating that route. Instead I feel Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn remember its namesake heritage and expounds upon it to work in an MMO environment. If they create game-play deeply seeded in the lore and environmental feel of Final Fantasy, then the game-play will be a success as well. However it still needs to at least be accessible to the public as well for it to function as an MMO.

It's a tall bill to fill, but honestly I feel confident in their ability to meet it adequately.

Story and gameplay, they're both critically important. However Story sticks to the FFXIV's identity more than WoW's identity.
#68 May 29 2013 at 6:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Final Fantasy's strongest suit is Storytelling.


+1 this. If you think about it gameplay in the FF franchise (non MMOs) stayed pretty much the same with small variations up to XII. The reason people kept playing was the stories.
#69 May 29 2013 at 7:23 PM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Well in MMO'S Content is King!


Story is content. SWToR's issue wasn't the fact that their gameplay was poor. IT was the fact that their gameplay did. not. exist. There was no endgame. Same problem with Guild Wars 2 which is now funneled into anything that closely resembles endgame as opposed to the widely distributed game they had hoped to create.

FFXIV has no concerns in this regard, there is a very clear endgame in Crystal Tower and Laberynth of Bahamut, at least in terms of projections. Beyond that, there's Primals that continued.


You cite the story of World of Warcraft as a minus and their gameplay as a plus. But in their introduction the opposite was true. Their creation and expansion onto the Warcraft Universe drew in it's early adapter audience, and their endgame was almost as sparse and lacking as FFXI's was on launch.

To clarify, I'm not saying the content can ignore being fun. But I do want to correct the conception that story was mostly ignored in World of Warcraft, which its success is attributed to a grand ton of factors, most of which are merely speculated upon as a continent argumentative scapegoat and rarely are they accurate.

If anything, many cite the fact that Yoshida talking to many of the Blizzard developers of WoW was a negative.

So this is all a mixed soup of deep-seeded opinions that, honestly, I hope Yoshida pretty much makes his own judgement on. But as far as I remember in his older interviews, his prorities are fairly clear:
This is a Final Fantasy game.
This is a Role Playing game.
This is a Massive Multiplayer game.

In that order.

Final Fantasy's strongest suit is Storytelling. If they let that suffer, they lose their install base. So they absolutely, cannot neglect that. When they called it Final Fantasy, that became a default expectation for many fans, MMO or otherwise. Now, I understand your emphasis on game-play but I personally think it's foolish to go for WoW's numbers or WoW's exact approach. Too many have tried and failed miserably duplicating that route. Instead I feel Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn remember its namesake heritage and expounds upon it to work in an MMO environment. If they create game-play deeply seeded in the lore and environmental feel of Final Fantasy, then the game-play will be a success as well. However it still needs to at least be accessible to the public as well for it to function as an MMO.

It's a tall bill to fill, but honestly I feel confident in their ability to meet it adequately.

Story and gameplay, they're both critically important. However Story sticks to the FFXIV's identity more than WoW's identity.


You are confusing Gameplay with end game content... Gameplay is anything from the combat system, pvp, crafting, housing, questing, grouping, raiding etc etc it has nothing to do with content, gameplay is the medium in which you experience content, it is not content by Itself. Swotor had gameplay, it did whoever not had enough end game content, it had 2 raids, heroic dungeons, a planet in which to PVP, and PVP, that was it, that by itself is not enough to hold a audience today. As far as their gameplay, they made a blunder in their PVP, classes where unbalanced, thus making their pvp content a negative instead of a positive.

As for WOW, if you gather 20 people at random from ogrimar and you ask them "Tell me the story of this game" they would not have the first clue on what to tell you" but if you ask them "Name me your top 10 endgame encounters" they will tell you a top 15 list... Also you mentioned that WOW's Endgame content was as lacking as XI on launch.. Which is hilarious at best, since JA XI launch was barren, yet WOW launched with 30+ dungeons, 2 raids, and 2 dungeons that where raids on themselves... That is leaps and bounds on what XI launched with. (It would be even more of a joke if you compare XI NA launch which was with the first expansion already to Vanilla wow right before BC.)

Also this notion that FF has strictly been Story, is false at best, Final Fantasy has always pioneered and dictated the gameplay of the RPG Genre. They have always been hand on hand, VI/FFT are their crowning achievement in this regards, two games with an excellent plot, story pacing, character development and the best gameplay delivered at their times. VI was leaps and bounds ahead of every single other RPG on the Snes, so far so that they not only emulated, the improved upon it and delivered FFVII.

I am not saying a story is not important, i am saying gameplay is more important, is the foundation for everything in a MMO, it does not matter if you got an oscar winning script, if your gameplay is horrible, nobody will play it, because you experience the story thru gameplay.
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#70 May 29 2013 at 7:55 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
You are confusing Gameplay with end game content... Gameplay is anything from the combat system, pvp, crafting, housing, questing, grouping, raiding etc etc it has nothing to do with content, gameplay is the medium in which you experience content, it is not content by Itself. Swotor had gameplay, it did whoever not had enough end game content, it had 2 raids, heroic dungeons, a planet in which to PVP, and PVP, that was it, that by itself is not enough to hold a audience today. As far as their gameplay, they made a blunder in their PVP, classes where unbalanced, thus making their pvp content a negative instead of a positive.

As for WOW, if you gather 20 people at random from ogrimar and you ask them "Tell me the story of this game" they would not have the first clue on what to tell you" but if you ask them "Name me your top 10 endgame encounters" they will tell you a top 15 list... Also you mentioned that WOW's Endgame content was as lacking as XI on launch.. Which is hilarious at best, since JA XI launch was barren, yet WOW launched with 30+ dungeons, 2 raids, and 2 dungeons that where raids on themselves... That is leaps and bounds on what XI launched with. (It would be even more of a joke if you compare XI NA launch which was with the first expansion already to Vanilla wow right before BC.)

Also this notion that FF has strictly been Story, is false at best, Final Fantasy has always pioneered and dictated the gameplay of the RPG Genre. They have always been hand on hand, VI/FFT are their crowning achievement in this regards, two games with an excellent plot, story pacing, character development and the best gameplay delivered at their times. VI was leaps and bounds ahead of every single other RPG on the Snes, so far so that they not only emulated, the improved upon it and delivered FFVII.

I am not saying a story is not important, i am saying gameplay is more important, is the foundation for everything in a MMO, it does not matter if you got an oscar winning script, if your gameplay is horrible, nobody will play it, because you experience the story thru gameplay.


Smiley: clap This is a great post. I agree with pretty much everything you said. Gameplay truly does trump story. I'll slog through a game with a poor story if it has excellent gameplay (Star Ocean: The Last Hope). I have a much harder time getting through a game that has a great story, but horrid gameplay. I can't even think of an example of the latter, as pretty much any game with bad gameplay gets tossed aside almost immediately, regardless of how compelling a story it might tell.

To expand upon what you're saying, even in FFXI, which a lot of people feel has a great story for an mmo, I never was immersed in the storyline very much. Sure there were some interesting cutscenes, but on the whole I felt a lot of it was quite boring and drawn out. I appreciated the gameplay far more than the story, and that is why I played for so long.
#71 May 29 2013 at 8:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
You are confusing Gameplay with end game content... Gameplay is anything from the combat system, pvp, crafting, housing, questing, grouping, raiding etc etc it has nothing to do with content, gameplay is the medium in which you experience content, it is not content by Itself. Swotor had gameplay, it did whoever not had enough end game content, it had 2 raids, heroic dungeons, a planet in which to PVP, and PVP, that was it, that by itself is not enough to hold a audience today. As far as their gameplay, they made a blunder in their PVP, classes where unbalanced, thus making their pvp content a negative instead of a positive.

As for WOW, if you gather 20 people at random from ogrimar and you ask them "Tell me the story of this game" they would not have the first clue on what to tell you" but if you ask them "Name me your top 10 endgame encounters" they will tell you a top 15 list... Also you mentioned that WOW's Endgame content was as lacking as XI on launch.. Which is hilarious at best, since JA XI launch was barren, yet WOW launched with 30+ dungeons, 2 raids, and 2 dungeons that where raids on themselves... That is leaps and bounds on what XI launched with. (It would be even more of a joke if you compare XI NA launch which was with the first expansion already to Vanilla wow right before BC.)

Also this notion that FF has strictly been Story, is false at best, Final Fantasy has always pioneered and dictated the gameplay of the RPG Genre. They have always been hand on hand, VI/FFT are their crowning achievement in this regards, two games with an excellent plot, story pacing, character development and the best gameplay delivered at their times. VI was leaps and bounds ahead of every single other RPG on the Snes, so far so that they not only emulated, the improved upon it and delivered FFVII.

I am not saying a story is not important, i am saying gameplay is more important, is the foundation for everything in a MMO, it does not matter if you got an oscar winning script, if your gameplay is horrible, nobody will play it, because you experience the story thru gameplay.


Smiley: clap This is a great post. I agree with pretty much everything you said. Gameplay truly does trump story. I'll slog through a game with a poor story if it has excellent gameplay (Star Ocean: The Last Hope). I have a much harder time getting through a game that has a great story, but horrid gameplay. I can't even think of an example of the latter, as pretty much any game with bad gameplay gets tossed aside almost immediately, regardless of how compelling a story it might tell.

To expand upon what you're saying, even in FFXI, which a lot of people feel has a great story for an mmo, I never was immersed in the storyline very much. Sure there were some interesting cutscenes, but on the whole I felt a lot of it was quite boring and drawn out. I appreciated the gameplay far more than the story, and that is why I played for so long.


Lol, you consider the FF1-7 good gameplay? The story is everything when it comes to final fantasy. This is the exact reason why games like FF are consider niche, especially here in the western part of the world. I remember many times trying to get people to give FF a shot but they couldn't play it because it was more story heavy whereas they were use to heavy gameplay like twisted metal or something more fast paced etc. So it seems odd that people would say its harder to play a game with a fantastic story but lesser quality gameplay. We watch movies and enjoy movies right? Story without game play! lol! Idk, I could be wrong. But it just seems odd to me for ff fans to say such a thing. But either side can be argued.
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#72 May 29 2013 at 8:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Saying again that bard in XI is half about buffs and half about being a puller, which isn't that far fetched from what Archer does. Pull, sleep, pull,sleep, til you hit chain 300!

(I actually got to play BRD like that again for the first time in years just last night, as we were farming a pop for an external Delve NM. Got to chain 21 before it dropped. My alliance was like "my god you really are a REAL BARD!" Smiley: eek It was awesome.)
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#73 May 29 2013 at 8:46 PM Rating: Good
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SaitoMishima wrote:
Lol, you consider the FF1-7 good gameplay? The story is everything when it comes to final fantasy. This is the exact reason why games like FF are consider niche, especially here in the western part of the world. I remember many times trying to get people to give FF a shot but they couldn't play it because it was more story heavy whereas they were use to heavy gameplay like twisted metal or something more fast paced etc. So it seems odd that people would say its harder to play a game with a fantastic story but lesser quality gameplay. We watch movies and enjoy movies right? Story without game play! lol! Idk, I could be wrong. But it just seems odd to me for ff fans to say such a thing. But either side can be argued.


How does watching a movie have anything to do with playing a video game? They are two completely different forms of entertainment. I watch movies for the plot and acting. I play games for the gameplay mainly, with story adding to that. That's like comparing apples to oranges (as cliche as that sounds).

As for FF games, every single game in that series had an almost completely different spin on the gameplay. Just a couple examples: FF6 had the esper system, where you could almost completely customize characters however you wanted with spells and even their attributes. FF7 introduced limit breaks, chocobo breeding, the materia system, etc. FF8 introduced the junction system, where you would draw magic out of enemies and then equip full stacks for added power, not to mention the affinity system for GFs, as well as the monsters that leveled with you. Every single iteration of FF games gave some new approach to gameplay that was revolutionary at the time.

Yes, they also had great stories. But without the amazing gameplay, I don't think most people would have ever gotten through them. Just look at FFXIII. It wasn't the story that most people disliked about the game... it was the insanely linear gameplay.

Edited, May 29th 2013 10:48pm by BartelX
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#74 May 29 2013 at 9:14 PM Rating: Default
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SaitoMishima wrote:


Lol, you consider the FF1-7 good gameplay? The story is everything when it comes to final fantasy. This is the exact reason why games like FF are consider niche, especially here in the western part of the world. I remember many times trying to get people to give FF a shot but they couldn't play it because it was more story heavy whereas they were use to heavy gameplay like twisted metal or something more fast paced etc. So it seems odd that people would say its harder to play a game with a fantastic story but lesser quality gameplay. We watch movies and enjoy movies right? Story without game play! lol! Idk, I could be wrong. But it just seems odd to me for ff fans to say such a thing. But either side can be argued.


FF1-7 where the foundation of today's RPG. The fact that you ask that, makes me question your knowledge on the subject of RPG'S. Take FFII for example, the gameplay mechanics implemented in that game, gave raise to the Saga series gameplay mechanics, it is also where skill ups originally came from in the series, take FFIII job system as another example, it was based on DQIII class system, yet it was leaps and bounds beyond what DQ originally created, from that FFV/FFT/FFTA/FFTA2/FFXI/FFXIV class/job system where created.

Also Final Fantasy has never been Niche! Stop with the notion that Final Fantasy is Niche! Final Fantasy XI is Niche! Final Fantasy as a series is the Mainstream of JRPG! There is nothing niche about it at All! The series has sold over 100 million copies world wide, their games are translated by fans from germany to south america... Calling Final Fantasy Niche! Is like saying Modern Warfare is Niche! They are their respective poster boys from each Genre!

Also check out Xenosaga series... That is a series that wanted the whole movie experience in gaming... Dint work out for them....
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#75 May 29 2013 at 9:33 PM Rating: Decent
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On a side note, most of movies that have came out recently have been complete and utter crap. Nothing original. Everything is a prequel, sequel, or spinoff. Basically pick a random superhero or superheroes, put them in front of a blue screen and market the movie to ****. Add the 3D experience and you get a 500 million dollar blockbuster. At this point it doesn't seem like Hollywood is even trying. I heard that in the new Spider Man, the main villain will be Rolled Up Newspaper man.

A good game should offer both a compelling story and respectable game play. Some games go above and beyond in both categories and those may become classics. Some fail in both categories and are instantly panned. And some fail in one and succeed in the other which leaves the player with something to be desired.
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#76 May 29 2013 at 9:44 PM Rating: Decent
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ACLinjury wrote:
On a side note, most of movies that have came out recently have been complete and utter crap. Nothing original. Everything is a prequel, sequel, or spinoff. Basically pick a random superhero or superheroes, put them in front of a blue screen and market the movie to ****. Add the 3D experience and you get a 500 million dollar blockbuster. At this point it doesn't seem like Hollywood is even trying. I heard that in the new Spider Man, the main villain will be Rolled Up Newspaper man.

A good game should offer both a compelling story and respectable game play. Some games go above and beyond in both categories and those may become classics. Some fail in both categories and are instantly panned. And some fail in one and succeed in the other which leaves the player with something to be desired.


ROFL@ Rolled Up Newspaper Man. Yea, Hollywood is out of ideas.
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#77 May 29 2013 at 10:28 PM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
It's not my biggest complaint, but yeah, it IS depressing that 3 years after the release of this game, I still won't be able to play as some of the major Final Fantasy jobs like Ninja, Dark Knight, Red Mage, and so on. Those probably won't be added until Thief and Musketeer (or whatever it's called).

We probably won't be seeing some of those big Final Fantasy jobs for years if ever, and even then Yoshi-P's "vision" of Red Mage might be a gun wielding dancer if his interpretation of Bard is anything to go by.


See, this is where FFXI lacked. Yes, it felt like Final Fantasy because it had all of those jobs, but what effective role did most of those jobs have?

DD.

So many damage dealers. Hardly any mages/support. There was a far overabundance of DD, and FFXIV was able to fix that (at least by the end of 1.0) for the sake of balance.

Warrior was a hybrid tank/DD. Can tank a group of mobs pretty effectively.

Paladin was a good tank for solo mobs. Good for holding the primals, story bosses. etc.

Dragoon was your standard DD. Kill-kill-kill do spike damage, fun times.

Monk in FFXIV played radically different from Monk in XI. It wasn't just a copy of DRG with fists, it was a magic close-range damage dealer. Consider it magic punches. You can swap your WS to do either physical or magic damage. Fighting a golem boss that has crazy defense? No problem, fists of fire and help out the BLMs.

White Mage is your healer and secondary nuker/dispeller. (Only if the party was doing well HP-wise though.)

Black Mage is your traditional nuker.

Bard is your buffer/support and secondary damage in-between.


Now, what would those jobs you mentioned play a role in this balanced effort? We only have two mages. White Mage and Black Mage, so we have a lack of magicians from the spot. There's not really any debuffers, so they added Arcanist into the mix. Now Ninja would be cool because it would be "the dual-wielder", makes sense that they would add it. Blue Mage, with its enemy abilities, can probably fill in whatever is needed. (They were good DD and support in FFXI.)

Where would Red Mage fall in? In FFXI, they became the "refresher". The developers certainly didn't intend for them to become support, but that's what they did, and that's all they were really good for. Jack of all trades, master of none doesn't really fit well into an MMO. A job has to be good at something, or you'll get passed on for someone who can do your job better. Why take a RDM to heal when a WHM can do it better? Why take a RDM to nuke when a BLM can do it better? Why take a RDM to support when a BRD can do it better?

It's not mine or your problem to solve this, but that's my reasoning on why Red Mage is probably not their first priority.




Edited, May 29th 2013 9:33pm by UltKnightGrover

Edited, May 29th 2013 9:34pm by UltKnightGrover
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#78 May 30 2013 at 6:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
Saying again that bard in XI is half about buffs and half about being a puller, which isn't that far fetched from what Archer does. Pull, sleep, pull,sleep, til you hit chain 300!

(I actually got to play BRD like that again for the first time in years just last night, as we were farming a pop for an external Delve NM. Got to chain 21 before it dropped. My alliance was like "my god you really are a REAL BARD!" Smiley: eek It was awesome.)


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#79 May 30 2013 at 7:55 PM Rating: Good
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I'm going to reiterate what I said earlier:
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Instead I feel Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn should remember its namesake heritage and expounds upon it to work in an MMO environment. If they create game-play deeply seeded in the lore and environmental feel of Final Fantasy, then the game-play will be a success as well. However it still needs to at least be accessible to the public as well for it to function as an MMO.


The thing that helped develop Final fantasy beyond being a one-shot game is that its franchise elements became part of the series greater lore. For every other game and example you put for that does not have the term "Final Fantasy" on it, I would agree with your argument. However, when it comes to Final Fantasy, its gameplay elements took from the lore and the stories that it involved itself with.

Just to throw out more examples.

FFIII and FFV's Crystal Job system.

FFVI's Esper system and FFVII's Meteria system.

FFVIII's Draw and Junction system (Major point on this one as the system actually is a key story component.)

These are argued as some of the best games in the franchise, and their gameplay mechanics are seeped in the lore and story of the game.

Even the other FF games still do it to varying extents.

So when I say they need to emphasis the story. I mean it needs to bleed into the game-play as well. You're more than fine to disagree on the importance of it in the field of games and MMOs, but Final Fantasy was once a standard-setter when it came to both, and it was because they valued their story in all things. If they keep their game lore in mind, even when working on the mechanics of the game, they'll do fine.

Final Fantasy is no World of Warcraft game. The players will not be forgiving of a sub-par story and realm. It's what the franchise is known for. If they create game-play that surrounds it, like they have done time and again, they'll succeed in making the game-play enjoyable as well. But everyone, and I mean everyone will wind up debating game-play mechanics. They have in previous final Fantasy games and they have done so in every MMO without fail, including World of Warcraft, which, agian, has defined and redefined their combat mechanics multiple times.
#80 May 30 2013 at 7:59 PM Rating: Good
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Even X-2's dress sphere system was tied into the story, with Shinra having invented them as a variation on the sphere grid used in the previous game.
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#81 May 30 2013 at 8:16 PM Rating: Good
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...which is exactly why I pointed out about 30 posts ago that gameplay and story are intertwined and that the story and narrative are a part of the gameplay, but then several different people shunned that notion, claiming the two to be mutually exclusive. Sometimes these boards can be very frustrating to post in.
#82 May 30 2013 at 8:21 PM Rating: Decent
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It sounds like an argument over semantics.

Edited, May 30th 2013 11:10pm by BrokenFox
#83 May 30 2013 at 11:45 PM Rating: Default
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I just want to try and recapture the feelings and fun I had in XI. I was really disappointed to hear that XIV was doing poorly and ended up not getting released on ps3 (wasn't a pc gamer at the time). Revisiting Zam so many times, sparingly, finally paid off and I found out about ARR. I've been searching the internet for anything and everything I can about it, and so far it looks amazing to me even though I'm on the outside looking in.

Yes, my expectations might be too high. I don't know if I'll find the same enjoyment like I did years ago on Seraph in XI. I think, for me anyways, my enjoyment stemmed from the friends I made within and outside of my LS. Experiencing the new and unexpected things with a sense of wonder, like I'm not sure if I'm actually ready to be in this zone was great to me. If this game can be like XI was to me, which was a journey that I enjoyed all the way through and not a race to endgame like other games I have tried I'll definitely be a subscriber for years to come.
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