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#27 May 28 2013 at 7:43 PM Rating: Good
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Dizmo wrote:
Parathyroid wrote:
AlexandEric wrote:
Dizmo wrote:
I'm a bit worried about the development team filling the game with thousands of trivial generic fetch/kill quests, mistakenly thinking that this qualifies as content. FFXI had lots of quests that felt like they had some substance to them, often full of quality backround lore or challenge. On the other hand I can't even remember a single quest from any other MMO I've played - they're just totally throwaway.

Unfortunately this seems to be the case in my month long beta testing. Though i will and can say they have some kinda cool quests for instance the one IN Gridania where you have to cheer a little girl up using emotes. Never had to use emotes in a quest before..


I think this is very important to this games ultimate success or failure. SE is at a point where they are trying to appease both hardcore and casual gamers... it will be up to them to find the appropriate mix which makes the game enjoyable for everyone.


I don't think it's a matter of casual or hardcore. It's more about trying to dumb things down to the lowest common denominator, while simultaneously cutting down on work. I think this is a misguided plan though, considering this is 2013, and the public has already been bombarded with WoW and WoW style games for 9 years and isn't likely to be excited for another. But I guess there's enough untouched market in Japan that isn't even aware of WoW and its spinoffs (except maybe TERA) to support the game.

I'm a casual gamer myself nowadays - I only have an hour or two to play each day nowadays, but you can bet I'll be spending that time on the game that offers the most rich gaming experience, not the one that is 90% menial tasks. "Casual" shouldn't mean pathetically easy and lacking in substance, it should just mean that you can get chunks of stuff done within an hour or two.

Edited, May 28th 2013 9:36pm by Dizmo


Let me preface by saying I haven't played WoW in over 3 years... however, when I did play, there was plenty of content that wasn't pathetically easy. ICC in it's prime was actually quite challenging, especially the "Hard Mode". Perhaps they've completely dumbed the game down since, but I'm more apt to believe that it's just common misconception where people associate WoW with easy mode. I don't think there's ever been an interview or piece of information that would indicate that the endgame in ARR will be easy. In fact, it seems quite the opposite. Crystal Tower and Maze of Bahamut don't sound like easy content to me. They sound like stuff that will require quite a bit of progression to even enter and have a chance of beating.

If it's anything like the videos I saw of 1.0 before servers went down, I don't think it will be all that forgiving. Some of those battles look like they required quite a bit of coordination and timing. Hopefully that is continued over to ARR.
#28 May 28 2013 at 7:44 PM Rating: Good
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Dizmo wrote:
"Casual" shouldn't mean pathetically easy and lacking in substance, it should just mean that you can get chunks of stuff done within an hour or two.]


Exactly. That's a point that's missed on a lot of people.
#29 May 28 2013 at 7:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
Kierk wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
It will probably still be an okay game for what it is, but in terms of gameplay I wouldn't expect much more than generic.


Of course you wouldn't, you're a very "glass half empty" kind of person. I tend to be more optimistic and think that the gameplay, while probably not some insanely revolutionary and game changing idea, will not just be "generic" and "okay". I think it will be quite good, and hopefully build off the absolutely gorgeous world, the seemingly endless FF lore thrown in, and the diverse experience the game as a whole will offer. But like I said, I tend to be more of an optimist.



I wouldn't say he's glass half empty, as much as he is a sophist or someone who doesn't really want developers to "settle."

But in this case I think that you're both right. I think it will be a pretty good game overall, but I don't think that the combat will be what puts it over the top.

Again, we really don't know how combat is going to be until it comes out. I'd love for it to be innovative and fun, and I think at the very least it will be better than 1.0, but it's most likely not to break any sorts of molds here.

Plus...when the game comes out and the combat is awesome , unique and fun; if we all take the half glass empty approach, we'll all be pleasantly surprised. :)


As far as combat is concerned, I agree that it will probably be rather generic, as so far I don't think that's where Yoshi and the staff have really been pushing the innovation. Kachi specifically mentioned gameplay though, which I think is pretty different from just combat, and there's where the disagreement lies. I suppose I'm being a bit too semantic with it, but I tend to do that... my bad.

As for your last paragraph, that is a very valid point. You'd think after getting burned with 1.0 I'd be more pessimistic in my views, but it's just not the type of person I am. I'd rather look at something with a positive spin, rather than just assume it's going to be okay or generic. I could be dead wrong, and I'm sure there's people on here who think I am, but that's the beauty of having an opinion... it differs for each individual based on their own experiences.

Edited, May 28th 2013 9:18pm by BartelX


In terms of how 2.0 relates to 1.0 I think it will be a success.. In terms of how it stands against other MMOs I think it will be a solid entry but by no means innovative. Which is fine for me because I don't play every MMO that comes out. I only stick to FF MMOs (aside from a 2 month stint of Cabal which I loved the over the top attacks lol). I have found that the more MMOs and games you play the harder it is to keep that magic and newness. Kinda like drugs lol. Always looking for that first high. That first newness experience like me and my first rpg FF7. Its harder to enjoy MMOs when you've played so many. Its not new for you anymore.. So I make it a point not to play too many MMOs.

Sorry got a little off track lol.
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#30 May 28 2013 at 7:51 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
It will probably still be an okay game for what it is, but in terms of gameplay I wouldn't expect much more than generic.


Of course you wouldn't, you're a very "glass half empty" kind of person. I tend to be more optimistic and think that the gameplay, while probably not some insanely revolutionary and game changing idea, will not just be "generic" and "okay". I think it will be quite good, and hopefully build off the absolutely gorgeous world, the seemingly endless FF lore thrown in, and the diverse experience the game as a whole will offer. But like I said, I tend to be more of an optimist.


Are those in the beta able to comment on the depth of the game thus far? I for one feel this is one of the most important issues facing this game. The way that questing is managed stands to affect the sucsuccess or failure of the game.

#31 May 28 2013 at 7:59 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:

Let me preface by saying I haven't played WoW in over 3 years... however, when I did play, there was plenty of content that wasn't pathetically easy. ICC in it's prime was actually quite challenging, especially the "Hard Mode". Perhaps they've completely dumbed the game down since, but I'm more apt to believe that it's just common misconception where people associate WoW with easy mode. I don't think there's ever been an interview or piece of information that would indicate that the endgame in ARR will be easy. In fact, it seems quite the opposite. Crystal Tower and Maze of Bahamut don't sound like easy content to me. They sound like stuff that will require quite a bit of progression to even enter and have a chance of beating.

If it's anything like the videos I saw of 1.0 before servers went down, I don't think it will be all that forgiving. Some of those battles look like they required quite a bit of coordination and timing. Hopefully that is continued over to ARR.


Yeah, I know, though I'm mostly talking about pre-end game. Most players will shape their opinions of the game before they reach the level cap.

Edited, May 28th 2013 9:59pm by Dizmo
#32 May 28 2013 at 8:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wint can, but we can only talk about character creation and Gridania.

Gridania's NPCs have a lot of depth. Some of their personal stories are heartbreaking, like the guy sitting where the ampitheater used to be. He says he lost his whole family in the Bahamut attack and has nothing left. Smiley: frown
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#33 May 28 2013 at 8:04 PM Rating: Good
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Dizmo wrote:
BartelX wrote:

Let me preface by saying I haven't played WoW in over 3 years... however, when I did play, there was plenty of content that wasn't pathetically easy. ICC in it's prime was actually quite challenging, especially the "Hard Mode". Perhaps they've completely dumbed the game down since, but I'm more apt to believe that it's just common misconception where people associate WoW with easy mode. I don't think there's ever been an interview or piece of information that would indicate that the endgame in ARR will be easy. In fact, it seems quite the opposite. Crystal Tower and Maze of Bahamut don't sound like easy content to me. They sound like stuff that will require quite a bit of progression to even enter and have a chance of beating.

If it's anything like the videos I saw of 1.0 before servers went down, I don't think it will be all that forgiving. Some of those battles look like they required quite a bit of coordination and timing. Hopefully that is continued over to ARR.


Yeah, I know, though I'm mostly talking about pre-end game. Most players will shape their opinions of the game before they reach the level cap.

Edited, May 28th 2013 9:59pm by Dizmo


Gotcha. Unfortunately, that's just the trend with mmo's where the leveling process seems to have been cast aside in favor of a compelling endgame (minus swtor, which is the reverse). I'm hoping ARR can achieve somewhat of an equilibrium, and I do think it's possible given the number of different activities available. I'm hopeful anyways.
#34 May 28 2013 at 9:07 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
It will probably still be an okay game for what it is, but in terms of gameplay I wouldn't expect much more than generic.


Of course you wouldn't, you're a very "glass half empty" kind of person. I tend to be more optimistic and think that the gameplay, while probably not some insanely revolutionary and game changing idea, will not just be "generic" and "okay". I think it will be quite good, and hopefully build off the absolutely gorgeous world, the seemingly endless FF lore thrown in, and the diverse experience the game as a whole will offer. But like I said, I tend to be more of an optimist.


I'm optimistic that it will rain tomorrow. I'm optimistic that people will starve to death tomorrow. Bad things will happen. It's not a matter of perspective, but prediction. In cases like these, my predictions are irrelevant. They change nothing. So there is no particular reason for these predictions to color my feelings. If FFXIV is bad, I will do other things with my time, and that is all. I'm not telling people what they should feel, or even what I feel--only what I think will happen.

I'm optimistic about many things, but they're usually things that are either within my own control or within the hands of those that I trust (though I always account for the possibility for failure). I see no reason to bet on horses with poor or questionable records. That said, I'm not a betting man at all, so I have nothing riding on whether the game does well or not. I hope it does well. My ability to recognize patterns and extrapolate them into eventualities leads me to believe that the gameplay will be mediocre. Maybe it won't be! But if I had to bet, which I don't, then I would bet that it will be pretty average. That's not pessimism or optimism. That's just statistics (mediocrity is definitively the norm) informed by data.

Gameplay isn't absolutely everything though, and mediocre gameplay can be redeemed by compelling narrative. That's why I concede that it could still be an okay game.

Point being, it's a mistake to infer anything about my personality based on what is really a pretty dry and unfelt analysis on my part. This is just speculation to me, trying to improve my own abilities, and tease out any weaknesses.
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#35 May 28 2013 at 9:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
I'm optimistic that it will rain tomorrow. I'm optimistic that people will starve to death tomorrow. Bad things will happen. It's not a matter of perspective, but prediction.


That's not optimism, or it's a very jaded view of it at best. At it's core, optimism is about interpreting events and situations with the best possible outcome, and I find it hard to believe that death and starvation are a best possible outcome in any situation. I think we both know that. At least, I hope we both do...

Kachi wrote:
But if I had to bet, which I don't, then I would bet that it will be pretty average. That's not pessimism or optimism. That's just statistics (mediocrity is definitively the norm) informed by data.


That's not statistics either. Statistics are based on a probability of an outcome based on numbers/data. What data are you talking about? The game hasn't been released, it's not even in the 3rd stage of beta yet where 2/3 of the content is being added. Since there is really no current data, you can only make an uneducated guess. You're predictions are not based on facts. They are based on past opinions from yourself and possibly others you've found with a similar viewpoint as yourself. Even if it were the majority, it is not fact, and I think/hope you know it.

Kachi wrote:
Gameplay isn't absolutely everything though, and mediocre gameplay can be redeemed by compelling narrative. That's why I concede that it could still be an okay game.


I'm sorry, is the narrative no longer part of the gameplay of a game? When did that happen? Last I checked, gameplay entails pretty much the entirety of the game. If we are going by the actual definition of the word, gameplay means the plot of a video game and the way in which it is played. If the two are separate, perhaps you should have used a different term or better defined the parameters of gameplay so that others would know what you are trying to infer.

Kachi wrote:
Point being, it's a mistake to infer anything about my personality based on what is really a pretty dry and unfelt analysis on my part. This is just speculation to me, trying to improve my own abilities, and tease out any weaknesses.


I don't feel I'm trying to infer anything. You yourself pointed out that there have been very few games in recent memory that you have considered good. I'm not going to go digging through threads, but I distinctly remember you making that assessment when someone asked you that very question. Speculation is one thing, trying to pass it off as statistical proof is another.


Edited, May 29th 2013 7:35am by BartelX
#36 May 29 2013 at 4:39 AM Rating: Good
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I'm just expecting, or rather hoping, for a better playing experience.
#37 May 29 2013 at 5:04 AM Rating: Good
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"BarteX" wrote:
I'm sorry, is the narrative no longer part of the gameplay of a game? When did that happen?


I always thought that when people mention gameplay they mean the actual game mechanics, ie. not the story, graphics, socialisation elements.

Basically the rules of the game that give rise to challenge, and implementation thereof. The bits that differentiate it from being a 3D chat room/visual novel.
#38 May 29 2013 at 5:31 AM Rating: Good
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I've always considered the story/plot/narrative as part of the gameplay. I know wikipedia isn't the most reliable resource ever, but even that says that gameplay includes game rules, plot, player interaction, etc. Regardless, even if we aren't including the narrative, I still don't think the gameplay as a whole will be generic simply because the battle mechanics might be. Heck, even battles will have stuff like party-wide limit breaks to differentiate it a bit from other games. Plus the whole idea of a separate job/class system for solo/party is something you don't see in most games.
#39 May 29 2013 at 5:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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The draw for me to FFXI and XIV is that you can level every job on the same character. I remember trying WoW after having played XI for a while and being annoyed that you could only pick one job and that was it.
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#40 May 29 2013 at 7:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, that's always bothered me in other mmo's too. One of the worst offenders is lotro, where you have to grind deeds and virtues on every character over and over if you want to have the best stats for it. And some of those grinds like "Kill 240 Trolls in the Trollshaws" take forever. Incredibly annoying.
#41 May 29 2013 at 7:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Kachi wrote:
I'm optimistic that it will rain tomorrow. I'm optimistic that people will starve to death tomorrow. Bad things will happen. It's not a matter of perspective, but prediction.


That's not optimism, or it's a very jaded view of it at best. At it's core, optimism is about interpreting events and situations with the best possible outcome, and I find it hard to believe that death and starvation are a best possible outcome in any situation. I think we both know that. At least, I hope we both do...


You're missing my point. You're attributing to optimism/pessimism what is merely an attempt at prediction/speculation. That suggests that FFXIV's success or failure has personal meaning to you. To me, it doesn't. I would like for it to succeed, but am not invested either way. If it fails, it won't bother me the least little bit. Ergo, it's not pessimism.

Optimism, btw, is not about predicting the best outcome to a situation. It is merely taking a positive (or even non-negative) point of view on the situation. For me, if FFXIV is an awful mess, my life will be completely unharmed, which is a positive point of view. It's a well-studied quality in the positive psychology movement, which incidentally is related to my own field of the study of play.

Quote:
Kachi wrote:
But if I had to bet, which I don't, then I would bet that it will be pretty average. That's not pessimism or optimism. That's just statistics (mediocrity is definitively the norm) informed by data.


That's not statistics either. Statistics are based on a probability of an outcome based on numbers/data. What data are you talking about? The game hasn't been released, it's not even in the 3rd stage of beta yet where 2/3 of the content is being added. Since there is really no current data, you can only make an uneducated guess. You're predictions are not based on facts. They are based on past opinions from yourself and possibly others you've found with a similar viewpoint as yourself. Even if it were the majority, it is not fact, and I think/hope you know it.


There is data about the game mechanics. It is not finalized, but it is within a finalized window. It will not deviate drastically from what we already know, which, if what we already know is rather similar to most other games (which it is), then we can consider it generic. That data about the game mechanics DOES convey a probability, whether you would like to acknowledge it or not. It does not paint a complete picture in any way--a generic game can even be a smashing success depending on excellent execution of the concept.

Statistical prediction does not require all the data to be complete--by definition, it is used when the data is incomplete. We have complete data on many other MMOs. But really, all I was saying is that statistically speaking, most things are very average--i.e., mediocre. You've seen a bell curve before? Roughly 65% of games are going to be mediocre by default. A 6/7 in game ratings is not to scale, afterall. Realistically, a 6/7 is a 5.

Quote:
Kachi wrote:
Gameplay isn't absolutely everything though, and mediocre gameplay can be redeemed by compelling narrative. That's why I concede that it could still be an okay game.


I'm sorry, is the narrative no longer part of the gameplay of a game? When did that happen? Last I checked, gameplay entails pretty much the entirety of the game. If we are going by the actual definition of the word, gameplay means the plot of a video game and the way in which it is played. If the two are separate, perhaps you should have used a different term or better defined the parameters of gameplay so that others would know what you are trying to infer.


Design-wise, the narrative is a distinct incentive structure that isn't considered a part of the gameplay for one simple reason: we use it to refer to the part of the game you don't PLAY. While gameplay should tie into the narrative to produce a cohesive experience, players watch or read story. They don't play it. So in that regard, no, narrative is not considered part of the gameplay. Gameplay refers specifically to the challenging interactive mechanisms of the game, whether they require reflexive or strategic problem solving.

Kachi wrote:
Point being, it's a mistake to infer anything about my personality based on what is really a pretty dry and unfelt analysis on my part. This is just speculation to me, trying to improve my own abilities, and tease out any weaknesses.


Quote:
I don't feel I'm trying to infer anything. You yourself pointed out that there have been very few games in recent memory that you have considered good. I'm not going to go digging through threads, but I distinctly remember you making that assessment when someone asked you that very question. Speculation is one thing, trying to pass it off as statistical proof is another.


Then you completely misunderstood the point I was making (or more likely, you don't understand statistics). Statistics are used for speculation. They predict things, but do not generally prove things.

Also, I only said that I hadn't played any good games in recent memory, but I don't play many games to begin with. I know that there are excellent games being made. Based on the information I have, I simply have no reason to believe that FFXIV will be excellent, or even very good. It could be, but that is not what I'm predicting.

Hopefully all of this will help you understand where I'm coming from a bit better. I'd rather not get into another blow-by-blow about it, at least.

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#42 May 29 2013 at 8:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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At some point, someone REALLY needs to define gameplay, utility, movement, control, etc. so people stop bickering over the many different similar but different meanings they have.
#43 May 29 2013 at 8:31 AM Rating: Good
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I've decided to move this to PM, since I doubt anyone in the forum cares about our views on statistics and optimism.

The only thing I'm going to keep here is this:

Kachi wrote:
Then you completely misunderstood the point I was making (or more likely, you don't understand statistics).


It's interesting how whenever someone doesn't agree with you, they are just missing your point or too stupid to understand... it couldn't possibly be that we just have differing opinions on the matter. Smiley: rolleyes

Edited, May 29th 2013 10:35am by BartelX
#44 May 29 2013 at 8:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
I've decided to move this to PM, since I doubt anyone in the forum cares about our views on statistics and optimism.

The only thing I'm going to keep here is this:

Kachi wrote:
Then you completely misunderstood the point I was making (or more likely, you don't understand statistics).


It's interesting how whenever someone doesn't agree with you, they are just missing your point or too stupid to understand... it couldn't possibly be that we just have differing opinions on the matter. Smiley: rolleyes

Edited, May 29th 2013 10:35am by BartelX


Three cheers for discretion lol
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#45 May 29 2013 at 8:40 AM Rating: Good
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Smiley: lol I was just imagining Wint reading my 8 paragraph rant and the wrath that might follow. Smiley: motzSmiley: bangheadSmiley: motz



Edited, May 29th 2013 10:41am by BartelX
#46 May 29 2013 at 8:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
Smiley: lol I was just imagining Wint reading my 8 paragraph rant and the wrath that might follow. Smiley: motzSmiley: bangheadSmiley: motz



Edited, May 29th 2013 10:41am by BartelX


Smiley: nod
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#47Killua125, Posted: May 29 2013 at 9:28 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm not very optimistic. I can't even work up the strength to look up any latest information. I'll give phase 3 a look over... I'm not that impressed and I realized that it'll be a year before we see the jobs like Ninja or Dark Knight.
#48 May 29 2013 at 9:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
I'm not very optimistic. I can't even work up the strength to look up any latest information. I'll give phase 3 a look over... I'm not that impressed and I realized that it'll be a year before we see the jobs like Ninja or Dark Knight.


The game won't be for everyone, and that's completely ok.
#49 May 29 2013 at 9:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
I'm not very optimistic. I can't even work up the strength to look up any latest information. I'll give phase 3 a look over... I'm not that impressed and I realized that it'll be a year before we see the jobs like Ninja or Dark Knight.


Someone please insert an emo gif here.. Your post with the added mention of wanting Dark Knight.. it all makes so much sense now.

Edited, May 29th 2013 11:40am by Louiscool
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#50 May 29 2013 at 9:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
I'm not very optimistic. I can't even work up the strength to look up any latest information. I'll give phase 3 a look over... I'm not that impressed and I realized that it'll be a year before we see the jobs like Ninja or Dark Knight.
Screenshot

Your post with the added mention of wanting Dark Knight.. it all makes so much sense now.
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#51 May 29 2013 at 10:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Just to touch on something kachi and X touched on, Gameplay is everything in an MMO, it's the meat of the game, if it is mediocre, the rest of the experience is affected by it. Do not dismiss gameplay in a MMO as a backseat element to story telling.
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