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Elemental Weakness and ResistanceFollow

#1 May 30 2013 at 11:16 AM Rating: Good
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Q29: Do you have any plans to implement elemental weaknesses/resistances? Also, please tell us why you eliminated these.

A29: There was already a lengthy response about this on the Beta forum, but to give you an example, if you are fighting Ifrit and his weakness is water, then classes and jobs that are proficient in fire would be excluded from participating. Since we want to make participating in content easy with the Duty Finder, we felt that this wasn’t good and decided to get rid of it.

I was really looking forward to FFXIV and still am partly, however, this has kinda struck me as odd and down right game changing. This mechanic has been a staple in most Final Fantasys and I don't believe impacted FFXI so much as to exclude people from fights. So why would they remove another layer to the combat? I know they want everyone to be able to participate but it seems like they're just dumbing down the system.

Edit: So what would be the difference between casting Firaga and Blizzaga? Why bother casting old spells when you can just spam your strongest damage spell [Ultima/whatever]

This removes a lot of strategy I think and also gives old spells no re-usability later down the line..

What do you think? i'm curious as to your thoughts.

^^

Edited, May 30th 2013 1:17pm by chrisatron

Edited, May 30th 2013 2:16pm by chrisatron

Edited, May 30th 2013 2:20pm by chrisatron

Edited, May 30th 2013 9:21pm by chrisatron

Edited, May 31st 2013 10:13am by chrisatron

Edited, May 31st 2013 10:13am by chrisatron
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#2 May 30 2013 at 11:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'll have to see if I can find Kachi's WALL O TEXT on this subject...
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#3 May 30 2013 at 11:31 AM Rating: Good
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I actually thought that this was common knowledge by now.

I'm all for it, "purists" aren't.

It's all a matter of game balance. Anyone who's played XI knows how frustrating it is to have your favorite class be useless when you get to certain encounters.

If raid progression is any similar to other games, mechanics like elemental weaknesses, or "no need for x job for y boss" will be a serious roadblock.
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#4 May 30 2013 at 11:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Nevermind, Kachi wasn't overly verbose in this thread, but here's the discussion we already had on this.

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=136809096896419977#6
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#5 May 30 2013 at 11:35 AM Rating: Decent
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If we want to go the purist route, imagine a BLM casting Flare on Ifrit and having it heal him... :/

While I don't like the dumbing down of such a system, accessibility is a cornerstone of this game and let's face it, with elementally based primal fights being some of the key battles in this game it would make the content very difficult to access for people who main/only have one or a limited selection of professions.

I would have preferred that water do a bit more damage than fire against a fire based mob, but not to the point where it makes CON substantially worse.
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#6 May 30 2013 at 11:45 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, if 1.0 is an indication, it would have been weird to stretch the system like that.

For example, all Fire spells (at least as far as we know) are AoE. What if we're fighting Shiva or insert ice raid boss, that spawns adds. Black Mages are screwed if they are simply doing their job by casting the spell that does the most elemental damage, but are hitting unintended targets.

Also, speaking 1.0 terms, you wouldn't want to be casting Flare on Ifrit. Flare is centered around you, so if you're casting Flare on Ifrit, you're far too close.

Edited, May 30th 2013 10:46am by UltKnightGrover
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#7 May 30 2013 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah it made sense in FFXI when BLMS had access to all of the elemental wheel, but Whm gets Wind and Earth, so it would seriously mess with the job system and become exclusionary.
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#8 May 30 2013 at 12:04 PM Rating: Default
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I'm on the fence about this. This system i thought was cool giving players a way to deal extra damage, or being able to debuff a mob with a high success rate because they were weak to something. To me it's like they are removing strategy from the game.

Besides i can't think of any classes that couldn't perform because a mob is weak to a certain element. WHM's had multiple elemental spells, and so did BLM. The melee had no problems either...unless they are planning to have classes that are extremely specific?

This kinda feels like all spells will be the same with the only one being used is the strongest one, which would normally vary with the elemental system. Maybe i'm just thinking to much into this, but i don't see the benefit in removing elemental properties.

I guess i'll have to wait and see how this pans out.

Edited, May 30th 2013 2:08pm by Keysofgaruda
#9 May 30 2013 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
Yeah it made sense in FFXI when BLMS had access to all of the elemental wheel, but Whm gets Wind and Earth, so it would seriously mess with the job system and become exclusionary.

Well, even if you forget about that, and just think of how horribly unbalanced FFXI was, (and I'm sure still is).

People should not be penalized by choosing to play a class that they enjoy simply because it's unable to perform in certain situations.
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#10 May 30 2013 at 12:08 PM Rating: Good
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There's certainly a strategic element, still. It's just not based on the enemy's innate element.

Fire is better for group targets. Flare is radial around you and does large damage over time on top of good area damage.
Lightning is better for single target spike damage. Burst's damage increases if you are low on HP. (Good for post-convert spike damage)
Blizzard spells are good for stunning/slowing the target. Blizzara stuns all targets around you, and Freeze reduces a lot of hate.

Edited, May 30th 2013 11:09am by UltKnightGrover
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#11 May 30 2013 at 12:13 PM Rating: Good
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
There's certainly a strategic element, still. It's just not based on the enemy's innate element.

Fire is better for group targets. Flare is radial around you and does large damage over time on top of good area damage.
Lightning is better for single target spike damage. Burst's damage increases if you are low on HP. (Good for post-convert spike damage)
Blizzard spells are good for stunning/slowing the target. Blizzara stuns all targets around you, and Freeze reduces a lot of hate.

Edited, May 30th 2013 11:09am by UltKnightGrover


Hmm, well if ARR uses spells in this kind of way I can see this working and actually being very strategic. I'm just worried they will do what diablo 3 did and make "elemental" stats worthless, and in diablo 3's case, something you don't want to see on a weapon (because +%damage only scales off physical damage :/ ).
#12 May 30 2013 at 1:37 PM Rating: Decent
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While I'm not a big fan of elemental wheels, I do think their reason for removing it is pretty poor. You honestly can't just maintain the mechanic and then actually balance it?

Honestly, it's like the first time they realize that a feature won't work perfectly, they decide to remove it, rather than figuring out how to implement it correctly. The gameplay already looks to have the depth of a puddle, but clearly designing a game is just too **** hard for some people.

But it seems like a lot of game developers don't understand when, why, or how to balance a game, or that almost any mechanic can work if your balancing protocols are the least bit planned out.
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#13 May 30 2013 at 6:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's different, especially for a Final Fantasy game.

But elemental weaknesses were mostly just a black mage thing with the occasional assist from elemental weapons. It could be taken in a different direction such as with additional effects like debuffs (e.g. fire spells occasionally cause a debilitating burn status, but ice spells might temporarily freeze an opponent) which would differentiate your choice of element to cast as a mage.
#14 May 30 2013 at 6:12 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm mostly wondering what they plan to do with Scholar, which was also a class very dependent upon elemental affinities. That and Scan were pretty much the definition of the job.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

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Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#15 May 30 2013 at 6:16 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
If we want to go the purist route, imagine a BLM casting Flare on Ifrit and having it heal him... :/


Actually Flare is, traditionally, a non-elemental spell Smiley: schooled

Personally, I think this is a misstep for them. I've said this before, but I'll say it again here so I'm not just spending this post being a ****.. elemental strengths and weaknesses are part of Final Fantasy since #1. Removing them because you can't figure out how to implement them properly is disheartening at best, and cowardly at worst.
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#16 May 30 2013 at 6:18 PM Rating: Default
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
If we want to go the purist route, imagine a BLM casting Flare on Ifrit and having it heal him... :/


Actually Flare is, traditionally, a non-elemental spell Smiley: schooled

Personally, I think this is a misstep for them. I've said this before, but I'll say it again here so I'm not just spending this post being a ****.. elemental strengths and weaknesses are part of Final Fantasy since #1. Removing them because you can't figure out how to implement them properly is disheartening at best, and cowardly at worst.


Maybe they secretly felt modern gamers would find the concept too confusing. Better off sticking with 1, 1, 1....

Edited, May 30th 2013 8:19pm by Dizmo
#17 May 30 2013 at 7:04 PM Rating: Good
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Dizmo wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
If we want to go the purist route, imagine a BLM casting Flare on Ifrit and having it heal him... :/


Actually Flare is, traditionally, a non-elemental spell Smiley: schooled

Personally, I think this is a misstep for them. I've said this before, but I'll say it again here so I'm not just spending this post being a ****.. elemental strengths and weaknesses are part of Final Fantasy since #1. Removing them because you can't figure out how to implement them properly is disheartening at best, and cowardly at worst.


Maybe they secretly felt modern gamers would find the concept too confusing. Better off sticking with 1, 1, 1....

Edited, May 30th 2013 8:19pm by Dizmo


It was an easy way to add complexity to combat and NOT unnecessarily deviate from the Final Fantasy roots, and they decided "no, no... f that noise"
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#18 May 30 2013 at 7:41 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
While I'm not a big fan of elemental wheels, I do think their reason for removing it is pretty poor. You honestly can't just maintain the mechanic and then actually balance it?


It's more lore-oriented.

BLM gets access to destructive elements while Whm gets access to nature-related and holy elements. I like the stylization, and I think any work-arounds would be awkward and forced.

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#19 May 30 2013 at 8:05 PM Rating: Good
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The only way they could have balanced out combat among all mage and elemental attacks would have been to give all mage classes access to all elements by default in equal measure.

And that would dulled out the classes far worse than elemental equalizing.

At least with this method they can now afford to give each element a unique function rather than simply have the elemental superiority wheel as honestly, a tired and overused mechanic. Honestly, if they choose to go with the route they are that's the best solution to give out.

This is a change, but one I'm willing to see through to the end.
#20 May 30 2013 at 8:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
Kachi wrote:
While I'm not a big fan of elemental wheels, I do think their reason for removing it is pretty poor. You honestly can't just maintain the mechanic and then actually balance it?


It's more lore-oriented.

BLM gets access to destructive elements while Whm gets access to nature-related and holy elements. I like the stylization, and I think any work-arounds would be awkward and forced.


Quote:
The only way they could have balanced out combat among all mage and elemental attacks would have been to give all mage classes access to all elements by default in equal measure.


Sorry, but that's not even close to true. That's like saying that the only way to get the number 5 is by subtracting 1 from 6. Fundamentally, that's what balancing IS--taking different approaches to evening out the numbers. There are literally an infinite number of ways they could have addressed encounter inequalities in the elemental wheel, but it's true that the easiest way to balance two things is just to remove one Smiley: oyvey
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

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#21 May 30 2013 at 9:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Kachi wrote:
While I'm not a big fan of elemental wheels, I do think their reason for removing it is pretty poor. You honestly can't just maintain the mechanic and then actually balance it?


It's more lore-oriented.

BLM gets access to destructive elements while Whm gets access to nature-related and holy elements. I like the stylization, and I think any work-arounds would be awkward and forced.


Quote:
The only way they could have balanced out combat among all mage and elemental attacks would have been to give all mage classes access to all elements by default in equal measure.


Sorry, but that's not even close to true. That's like saying that the only way to get the number 5 is by subtracting 1 from 6. Fundamentally, that's what balancing IS--taking different approaches to evening out the numbers. There are literally an infinite number of ways they could have addressed encounter inequalities in the elemental wheel, but it's true that the easiest way to balance two things is just to remove one Smiley: oyvey


Like how? Name one of these infinite possibilities. "Oh you can equip a magic fairy wand that changes the element of your spell to the element of the fairy pixey wand!"

That's all I can think of.
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#22 May 30 2013 at 9:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
The only way they could have balanced out combat among all mage and elemental attacks would have been to give all mage classes access to all elements by default in equal measure.

And that would dulled out the classes far worse than elemental equalizing.

At least with this method they can now afford to give each element a unique function rather than simply have the elemental superiority wheel as honestly, a tired and overused mechanic. Honestly, if they choose to go with the route they are that's the best solution to give out.

This is a change, but one I'm willing to see through to the end.


Just off the top of my head, let's see...

BLM can have the entire elemental wheel and be perfectly reasonable.
WHM .... is not a dps, moving on.
SMN has no problem having elemental minions
SCH COULD be given the whole wheel, but let's do something different and let them modify elemental weaknesses. So we adjust their role from pure dps to more of a combat support role where they're helping to enable the rest of the party to do more damage while putting out decent non-elemental damage of their own.

BOOM

And there are infinite other ways to make it work too.
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#23 May 30 2013 at 9:42 PM Rating: Good
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The argument in XI was that since you could have more than one job leveled, content that unintentionally restricted you wasn't as big a deal. The only serious problem was when the content in question was experience points, so you couldn't even level up the jobs you wanted to play.

I properly leveled and geared both BLM and BRD. My preferred job is BRD. I went BLM on stuff where BRD wasn't as desirable. Between the two I'm able to do nearly any content I want in FFXI. ****, I'm on bard in Neo Nyzul Isle right now.
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#24 May 30 2013 at 10:39 PM Rating: Good
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Elemental wheels are IMO at the core of FF and RPGs in general.

If you want to do the most damage to Ifrit use something other than fire.

It seems more odd not to cure and undead to death or cast stone and not have it heal Titan.

Its an admittedly small thing but is just one of those staples like blunt weapons vs bones.

You could have it where fire does damage vs. Ifrit but water just does more. People are going to min/max anyway ...

It just seems as though there's an extra effort to homogenize the game; first with the lack of meaningful racial stats and now elements, the differentiation is seeming more and more superficial.

To be honest I don't know if this is good or bad, and if its an attempt to balance the game or if it is just lazy design (in this one area).

I wouldn't be surprised if the elements were put back in, in a few months from now.
#25 May 30 2013 at 11:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
The only way they could have balanced out combat among all mage and elemental attacks would have been to give all mage classes access to all elements by default in equal measure.

And that would dulled out the classes far worse than elemental equalizing.

At least with this method they can now afford to give each element a unique function rather than simply have the elemental superiority wheel as honestly, a tired and overused mechanic. Honestly, if they choose to go with the route they are that's the best solution to give out.

This is a change, but one I'm willing to see through to the end.


Just off the top of my head, let's see...

BLM can have the entire elemental wheel and be perfectly reasonable.
WHM .... is not a dps, moving on.
SMN has no problem having elemental minions
SCH COULD be given the whole wheel, but let's do something different and let them modify elemental weaknesses. So we adjust their role from pure dps to more of a combat support role where they're helping to enable the rest of the party to do more damage while putting out decent non-elemental damage of their own.

BOOM

And there are infinite other ways to make it work too.


One of the reason why I hated WHM in FFXI is that leveling it early on was boring. Boring as all ****. Especially with the way that FFXIV is more solo friendly, Conjurer/WHM needs a way to be able to solo leves. It doesn't have to be DPS, but it can't be completely helpless, either.

BLM being given the whole elemental wheel goes against existing FFXIV lore, it's very doubtful anything could be done to that. Even if they wanted to.

Like I said earlier, the elements have a time and place, it's just not dependent on the enemy's innate element.


Edited, May 30th 2013 10:08pm by UltKnightGrover
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#26 May 30 2013 at 11:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Kierk wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised if the elements were put back in, in a few months from now.


Very unlikely. They'd have to go in and add the code to too many things. If they can't see the value of it now, they almost definitely won't add it later when it will be even harder.

Quote:
BLM being given the whole elemental wheel goes against existing FFXIV lore, it's very doubtful anything could be done to that. Even if they wanted to.


BLM doesn't need the entire elemental wheel. The only issue is if there's a class that has only or mostly only access to elements which would be a significant weakness in battle. If you can't design your way around that problem,you can't design your way out of a paper bag.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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