Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
Reply To Thread

Elemental Weakness and ResistanceFollow

#1 May 30 2013 at 11:16 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
*
83 posts
Q29: Do you have any plans to implement elemental weaknesses/resistances? Also, please tell us why you eliminated these.

A29: There was already a lengthy response about this on the Beta forum, but to give you an example, if you are fighting Ifrit and his weakness is water, then classes and jobs that are proficient in fire would be excluded from participating. Since we want to make participating in content easy with the Duty Finder, we felt that this wasn’t good and decided to get rid of it.

I was really looking forward to FFXIV and still am partly, however, this has kinda struck me as odd and down right game changing. This mechanic has been a staple in most Final Fantasys and I don't believe impacted FFXI so much as to exclude people from fights. So why would they remove another layer to the combat? I know they want everyone to be able to participate but it seems like they're just dumbing down the system.

Edit: So what would be the difference between casting Firaga and Blizzaga? Why bother casting old spells when you can just spam your strongest damage spell [Ultima/whatever]

This removes a lot of strategy I think and also gives old spells no re-usability later down the line..

What do you think? i'm curious as to your thoughts.

^^

Edited, May 30th 2013 1:17pm by chrisatron

Edited, May 30th 2013 2:16pm by chrisatron

Edited, May 30th 2013 2:20pm by chrisatron

Edited, May 30th 2013 9:21pm by chrisatron

Edited, May 31st 2013 10:13am by chrisatron

Edited, May 31st 2013 10:13am by chrisatron
____________________________
---Everything in it's right place-----
#2 May 30 2013 at 11:29 AM Rating: Excellent
Anterograde Amnesia
Avatar
*****
12,363 posts
I'll have to see if I can find Kachi's WALL O TEXT on this subject...
____________________________
"Choosy MMO's choose Wint." - Louiscool
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist.
Keyser Soze - Ultros
Guide to Setting Up Mumble on a Raspberry Pi
#3 May 30 2013 at 11:31 AM Rating: Good
**
383 posts
I actually thought that this was common knowledge by now.

I'm all for it, "purists" aren't.

It's all a matter of game balance. Anyone who's played XI knows how frustrating it is to have your favorite class be useless when you get to certain encounters.

If raid progression is any similar to other games, mechanics like elemental weaknesses, or "no need for x job for y boss" will be a serious roadblock.
____________________________
This is my sig; Enjoy.
FFXIV: Tom Carroll - Excalibur
FC: Sitzkireg (www.sitzkrieg.guildwork.com)
#4 May 30 2013 at 11:34 AM Rating: Excellent
Anterograde Amnesia
Avatar
*****
12,363 posts
Nevermind, Kachi wasn't overly verbose in this thread, but here's the discussion we already had on this.

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=136809096896419977#6
____________________________
"Choosy MMO's choose Wint." - Louiscool
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist.
Keyser Soze - Ultros
Guide to Setting Up Mumble on a Raspberry Pi
#5 May 30 2013 at 11:35 AM Rating: Decent
**
793 posts
If we want to go the purist route, imagine a BLM casting Flare on Ifrit and having it heal him... :/

While I don't like the dumbing down of such a system, accessibility is a cornerstone of this game and let's face it, with elementally based primal fights being some of the key battles in this game it would make the content very difficult to access for people who main/only have one or a limited selection of professions.

I would have preferred that water do a bit more damage than fire against a fire based mob, but not to the point where it makes CON substantially worse.
____________________________
I might be an onion thief, but I'm still a thief.™





#6 May 30 2013 at 11:45 AM Rating: Good
***
3,177 posts
Yeah, if 1.0 is an indication, it would have been weird to stretch the system like that.

For example, all Fire spells (at least as far as we know) are AoE. What if we're fighting Shiva or insert ice raid boss, that spawns adds. Black Mages are screwed if they are simply doing their job by casting the spell that does the most elemental damage, but are hitting unintended targets.

Also, speaking 1.0 terms, you wouldn't want to be casting Flare on Ifrit. Flare is centered around you, so if you're casting Flare on Ifrit, you're far too close.

Edited, May 30th 2013 10:46am by UltKnightGrover
____________________________
Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn
Grover Eyeveen - Hyperion Server
Viva Eorzea Free Company/Linkshell Leader - Hyperion Server

Aegis Server (2012-2013)
Figaro Server (2010-2012)

Final Fantasy XI:
Retired

Blog
#7 May 30 2013 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
3,599 posts
Yeah it made sense in FFXI when BLMS had access to all of the elemental wheel, but Whm gets Wind and Earth, so it would seriously mess with the job system and become exclusionary.
____________________________


#8 May 30 2013 at 12:04 PM Rating: Default
***
1,004 posts
I'm on the fence about this. This system i thought was cool giving players a way to deal extra damage, or being able to debuff a mob with a high success rate because they were weak to something. To me it's like they are removing strategy from the game.

Besides i can't think of any classes that couldn't perform because a mob is weak to a certain element. WHM's had multiple elemental spells, and so did BLM. The melee had no problems either...unless they are planning to have classes that are extremely specific?

This kinda feels like all spells will be the same with the only one being used is the strongest one, which would normally vary with the elemental system. Maybe i'm just thinking to much into this, but i don't see the benefit in removing elemental properties.

I guess i'll have to wait and see how this pans out.

Edited, May 30th 2013 2:08pm by Keysofgaruda
#9 May 30 2013 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
**
383 posts
Louiscool wrote:
Yeah it made sense in FFXI when BLMS had access to all of the elemental wheel, but Whm gets Wind and Earth, so it would seriously mess with the job system and become exclusionary.

Well, even if you forget about that, and just think of how horribly unbalanced FFXI was, (and I'm sure still is).

People should not be penalized by choosing to play a class that they enjoy simply because it's unable to perform in certain situations.
____________________________
This is my sig; Enjoy.
FFXIV: Tom Carroll - Excalibur
FC: Sitzkireg (www.sitzkrieg.guildwork.com)
#10 May 30 2013 at 12:08 PM Rating: Good
***
3,177 posts
There's certainly a strategic element, still. It's just not based on the enemy's innate element.

Fire is better for group targets. Flare is radial around you and does large damage over time on top of good area damage.
Lightning is better for single target spike damage. Burst's damage increases if you are low on HP. (Good for post-convert spike damage)
Blizzard spells are good for stunning/slowing the target. Blizzara stuns all targets around you, and Freeze reduces a lot of hate.

Edited, May 30th 2013 11:09am by UltKnightGrover
____________________________
Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn
Grover Eyeveen - Hyperion Server
Viva Eorzea Free Company/Linkshell Leader - Hyperion Server

Aegis Server (2012-2013)
Figaro Server (2010-2012)

Final Fantasy XI:
Retired

Blog
#11 May 30 2013 at 12:13 PM Rating: Good
***
1,004 posts
UltKnightGrover wrote:
There's certainly a strategic element, still. It's just not based on the enemy's innate element.

Fire is better for group targets. Flare is radial around you and does large damage over time on top of good area damage.
Lightning is better for single target spike damage. Burst's damage increases if you are low on HP. (Good for post-convert spike damage)
Blizzard spells are good for stunning/slowing the target. Blizzara stuns all targets around you, and Freeze reduces a lot of hate.

Edited, May 30th 2013 11:09am by UltKnightGrover


Hmm, well if ARR uses spells in this kind of way I can see this working and actually being very strategic. I'm just worried they will do what diablo 3 did and make "elemental" stats worthless, and in diablo 3's case, something you don't want to see on a weapon (because +%damage only scales off physical damage :/ ).
#12 May 30 2013 at 1:37 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
While I'm not a big fan of elemental wheels, I do think their reason for removing it is pretty poor. You honestly can't just maintain the mechanic and then actually balance it?

Honestly, it's like the first time they realize that a feature won't work perfectly, they decide to remove it, rather than figuring out how to implement it correctly. The gameplay already looks to have the depth of a puddle, but clearly designing a game is just too **** hard for some people.

But it seems like a lot of game developers don't understand when, why, or how to balance a game, or that almost any mechanic can work if your balancing protocols are the least bit planned out.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#13 May 30 2013 at 6:05 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
***
1,310 posts
It's different, especially for a Final Fantasy game.

But elemental weaknesses were mostly just a black mage thing with the occasional assist from elemental weapons. It could be taken in a different direction such as with additional effects like debuffs (e.g. fire spells occasionally cause a debilitating burn status, but ice spells might temporarily freeze an opponent) which would differentiate your choice of element to cast as a mage.
#14 May 30 2013 at 6:12 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
I'm mostly wondering what they plan to do with Scholar, which was also a class very dependent upon elemental affinities. That and Scan were pretty much the definition of the job.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#15 May 30 2013 at 6:16 PM Rating: Good
***
3,386 posts
Quote:
If we want to go the purist route, imagine a BLM casting Flare on Ifrit and having it heal him... :/


Actually Flare is, traditionally, a non-elemental spell Smiley: schooled

Personally, I think this is a misstep for them. I've said this before, but I'll say it again here so I'm not just spending this post being a ****.. elemental strengths and weaknesses are part of Final Fantasy since #1. Removing them because you can't figure out how to implement them properly is disheartening at best, and cowardly at worst.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#16 May 30 2013 at 6:18 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
1,122 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
If we want to go the purist route, imagine a BLM casting Flare on Ifrit and having it heal him... :/


Actually Flare is, traditionally, a non-elemental spell Smiley: schooled

Personally, I think this is a misstep for them. I've said this before, but I'll say it again here so I'm not just spending this post being a ****.. elemental strengths and weaknesses are part of Final Fantasy since #1. Removing them because you can't figure out how to implement them properly is disheartening at best, and cowardly at worst.


Maybe they secretly felt modern gamers would find the concept too confusing. Better off sticking with 1, 1, 1....

Edited, May 30th 2013 8:19pm by Dizmo
#17 May 30 2013 at 7:04 PM Rating: Good
***
3,386 posts
Dizmo wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
If we want to go the purist route, imagine a BLM casting Flare on Ifrit and having it heal him... :/


Actually Flare is, traditionally, a non-elemental spell Smiley: schooled

Personally, I think this is a misstep for them. I've said this before, but I'll say it again here so I'm not just spending this post being a ****.. elemental strengths and weaknesses are part of Final Fantasy since #1. Removing them because you can't figure out how to implement them properly is disheartening at best, and cowardly at worst.


Maybe they secretly felt modern gamers would find the concept too confusing. Better off sticking with 1, 1, 1....

Edited, May 30th 2013 8:19pm by Dizmo


It was an easy way to add complexity to combat and NOT unnecessarily deviate from the Final Fantasy roots, and they decided "no, no... f that noise"
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#18 May 30 2013 at 7:41 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
3,599 posts
Kachi wrote:
While I'm not a big fan of elemental wheels, I do think their reason for removing it is pretty poor. You honestly can't just maintain the mechanic and then actually balance it?


It's more lore-oriented.

BLM gets access to destructive elements while Whm gets access to nature-related and holy elements. I like the stylization, and I think any work-arounds would be awkward and forced.

____________________________


#19 May 30 2013 at 8:05 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,755 posts
The only way they could have balanced out combat among all mage and elemental attacks would have been to give all mage classes access to all elements by default in equal measure.

And that would dulled out the classes far worse than elemental equalizing.

At least with this method they can now afford to give each element a unique function rather than simply have the elemental superiority wheel as honestly, a tired and overused mechanic. Honestly, if they choose to go with the route they are that's the best solution to give out.

This is a change, but one I'm willing to see through to the end.
#20 May 30 2013 at 8:45 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Louiscool wrote:
Kachi wrote:
While I'm not a big fan of elemental wheels, I do think their reason for removing it is pretty poor. You honestly can't just maintain the mechanic and then actually balance it?


It's more lore-oriented.

BLM gets access to destructive elements while Whm gets access to nature-related and holy elements. I like the stylization, and I think any work-arounds would be awkward and forced.


Quote:
The only way they could have balanced out combat among all mage and elemental attacks would have been to give all mage classes access to all elements by default in equal measure.


Sorry, but that's not even close to true. That's like saying that the only way to get the number 5 is by subtracting 1 from 6. Fundamentally, that's what balancing IS--taking different approaches to evening out the numbers. There are literally an infinite number of ways they could have addressed encounter inequalities in the elemental wheel, but it's true that the easiest way to balance two things is just to remove one Smiley: oyvey
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#21 May 30 2013 at 9:31 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
3,599 posts
Kachi wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Kachi wrote:
While I'm not a big fan of elemental wheels, I do think their reason for removing it is pretty poor. You honestly can't just maintain the mechanic and then actually balance it?


It's more lore-oriented.

BLM gets access to destructive elements while Whm gets access to nature-related and holy elements. I like the stylization, and I think any work-arounds would be awkward and forced.


Quote:
The only way they could have balanced out combat among all mage and elemental attacks would have been to give all mage classes access to all elements by default in equal measure.


Sorry, but that's not even close to true. That's like saying that the only way to get the number 5 is by subtracting 1 from 6. Fundamentally, that's what balancing IS--taking different approaches to evening out the numbers. There are literally an infinite number of ways they could have addressed encounter inequalities in the elemental wheel, but it's true that the easiest way to balance two things is just to remove one Smiley: oyvey


Like how? Name one of these infinite possibilities. "Oh you can equip a magic fairy wand that changes the element of your spell to the element of the fairy pixey wand!"

That's all I can think of.
____________________________


#22 May 30 2013 at 9:35 PM Rating: Decent
***
3,386 posts
Hyrist wrote:
The only way they could have balanced out combat among all mage and elemental attacks would have been to give all mage classes access to all elements by default in equal measure.

And that would dulled out the classes far worse than elemental equalizing.

At least with this method they can now afford to give each element a unique function rather than simply have the elemental superiority wheel as honestly, a tired and overused mechanic. Honestly, if they choose to go with the route they are that's the best solution to give out.

This is a change, but one I'm willing to see through to the end.


Just off the top of my head, let's see...

BLM can have the entire elemental wheel and be perfectly reasonable.
WHM .... is not a dps, moving on.
SMN has no problem having elemental minions
SCH COULD be given the whole wheel, but let's do something different and let them modify elemental weaknesses. So we adjust their role from pure dps to more of a combat support role where they're helping to enable the rest of the party to do more damage while putting out decent non-elemental damage of their own.

BOOM

And there are infinite other ways to make it work too.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#23 May 30 2013 at 9:42 PM Rating: Good
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
The argument in XI was that since you could have more than one job leveled, content that unintentionally restricted you wasn't as big a deal. The only serious problem was when the content in question was experience points, so you couldn't even level up the jobs you wanted to play.

I properly leveled and geared both BLM and BRD. My preferred job is BRD. I went BLM on stuff where BRD wasn't as desirable. Between the two I'm able to do nearly any content I want in FFXI. ****, I'm on bard in Neo Nyzul Isle right now.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#24 May 30 2013 at 10:39 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,675 posts
Elemental wheels are IMO at the core of FF and RPGs in general.

If you want to do the most damage to Ifrit use something other than fire.

It seems more odd not to cure and undead to death or cast stone and not have it heal Titan.

Its an admittedly small thing but is just one of those staples like blunt weapons vs bones.

You could have it where fire does damage vs. Ifrit but water just does more. People are going to min/max anyway ...

It just seems as though there's an extra effort to homogenize the game; first with the lack of meaningful racial stats and now elements, the differentiation is seeming more and more superficial.

To be honest I don't know if this is good or bad, and if its an attempt to balance the game or if it is just lazy design (in this one area).

I wouldn't be surprised if the elements were put back in, in a few months from now.
#25 May 30 2013 at 11:05 PM Rating: Decent
***
3,177 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
The only way they could have balanced out combat among all mage and elemental attacks would have been to give all mage classes access to all elements by default in equal measure.

And that would dulled out the classes far worse than elemental equalizing.

At least with this method they can now afford to give each element a unique function rather than simply have the elemental superiority wheel as honestly, a tired and overused mechanic. Honestly, if they choose to go with the route they are that's the best solution to give out.

This is a change, but one I'm willing to see through to the end.


Just off the top of my head, let's see...

BLM can have the entire elemental wheel and be perfectly reasonable.
WHM .... is not a dps, moving on.
SMN has no problem having elemental minions
SCH COULD be given the whole wheel, but let's do something different and let them modify elemental weaknesses. So we adjust their role from pure dps to more of a combat support role where they're helping to enable the rest of the party to do more damage while putting out decent non-elemental damage of their own.

BOOM

And there are infinite other ways to make it work too.


One of the reason why I hated WHM in FFXI is that leveling it early on was boring. Boring as all ****. Especially with the way that FFXIV is more solo friendly, Conjurer/WHM needs a way to be able to solo leves. It doesn't have to be DPS, but it can't be completely helpless, either.

BLM being given the whole elemental wheel goes against existing FFXIV lore, it's very doubtful anything could be done to that. Even if they wanted to.

Like I said earlier, the elements have a time and place, it's just not dependent on the enemy's innate element.


Edited, May 30th 2013 10:08pm by UltKnightGrover
____________________________
Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn
Grover Eyeveen - Hyperion Server
Viva Eorzea Free Company/Linkshell Leader - Hyperion Server

Aegis Server (2012-2013)
Figaro Server (2010-2012)

Final Fantasy XI:
Retired

Blog
#26 May 30 2013 at 11:21 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Kierk wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised if the elements were put back in, in a few months from now.


Very unlikely. They'd have to go in and add the code to too many things. If they can't see the value of it now, they almost definitely won't add it later when it will be even harder.

Quote:
BLM being given the whole elemental wheel goes against existing FFXIV lore, it's very doubtful anything could be done to that. Even if they wanted to.


BLM doesn't need the entire elemental wheel. The only issue is if there's a class that has only or mostly only access to elements which would be a significant weakness in battle. If you can't design your way around that problem,you can't design your way out of a paper bag.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#27 May 31 2013 at 3:23 AM Rating: Excellent
Guru
***
1,310 posts
Kachi wrote:
Kierk wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised if the elements were put back in, in a few months from now.


Very unlikely. They'd have to go in and add the code to too many things. If they can't see the value of it now, they almost definitely won't add it later when it will be even harder.


Going back to the 2010 alpha to the present, I believe they've completely redone the combat system in FFXIV about a half dozen times by now. Adding a little ol' wheel wouldn't be that tough now that they're experts at revamping the whole thing Smiley: lol

I'm willing to give this non-elemental-weakness-world of Yoshi's a shot, especially since he's managed to pull together a lot of impressive changes. But, if it turns out it really does suck, I'm sure I'll be handing out pitchforks and (non-elemental damage) torches with the rest of the dissatisfied. Funny how fickle the crowd can get over minor details. Smiley: rolleyes
#28 May 31 2013 at 6:16 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
3,599 posts
Kachi wrote:
Kierk wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised if the elements were put back in, in a few months from now.


Very unlikely. They'd have to go in and add the code to too many things. If they can't see the value of it now, they almost definitely won't add it later when it will be even harder.

Quote:
BLM being given the whole elemental wheel goes against existing FFXIV lore, it's very doubtful anything could be done to that. Even if they wanted to.


BLM doesn't need the entire elemental wheel. The only issue is if there's a class that has only or mostly only access to elements which would be a significant weakness in battle. If you can't design your way around that problem,you can't design your way out of a paper bag.


Or, you know, you could also just agree that the ele wheel is a tired and boring concept. I mean we agree on that, right? So why is SE getting bashed? because their reasons weren't good enough? I'm happy to see it go in lieu of interesting spell mechanics.
____________________________


#29 May 31 2013 at 6:40 AM Rating: Decent
****
6,898 posts
Quote:
Funny how fickle the crowd can get over minor details.


The thing is though, the dev team have made the game out to pay tribute to past Final Fantasy games as much as possible. They have gone out of their way to add in staples such as moogles, magitek armor, a materia system, limit breaks, and even similar areas from past games like the Crystal Tower and Golden Saucer. The elemental wheel and properties are a staple of EVERY other Final Fantasy game. It may not be as important to the series as some other things, but it seems like a mistake to omit it altogether.

It's certainly not game-breaking, but I can easily understand why a lot of people would not be happy they're removing it, myself included.
#30 May 31 2013 at 6:47 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
970 posts
First they took away the multiple tiers of each spell to add depth. Now they are taking away elemental weaknesses to add depth. God forbid one mage be more proficient at casting a certain spell versus another mage provided they built their character towards that strength. With the endless choices of potency and wide selection of spells BLM has now. There will never be cases of spamming certain hotkeys.

***** lore, ***** hard to balance(it's their job to balance), ***** the laws of physics. When it comes down to actual combat, I want depth. If this new system can provide that and not dumb things down. I can roll with it. But on the surface it's not looking good.

Edited in this:
The problem they are foreseeing is blm being the go to gunner for certain content. The real problem they need to fix so blm doesn't become that. Is to balance enemy weaknesses. There is always a go to job that edges out others in other areas.

Problem:
Melee get hurt more often by AoE because they need to be close to enemy.
Solution:
Give buffing jobs stronger protective buffs to cast on melees.

Problem:
Certain enemies are weaker to thunder than weapon damage or other spells.
Solution:
Balance those enemies so that even if one blm spell does more damage than other blm spells. The damage from other types of damage on other jobs is equally effective depending on what skills they use.

Problem:
Melee are shunned from certain content due to an enemy tearing their hit points to shreds versus barely touching ranged melee and magic users.
Solution:
Stop making enemies one dimensional. There should be no safe zone if your in the line of fire or top of the hate threshold. That gives purpose to the tanks and support to keep your *** alive. And it gives your ranged damage purpose to stay even keel.

Edited, May 31st 2013 9:18am by sandpark
#31 May 31 2013 at 7:18 AM Rating: Decent
***
3,386 posts
Quote:
One of the reason why I hated WHM in FFXI is that leveling it early on was boring. Boring as all ****. Especially with the way that FFXIV is more solo friendly, Conjurer/WHM needs a way to be able to solo leves. It doesn't have to be DPS, but it can't be completely helpless, either.


Be careful that you're not confusing WHM and Conjurer.

I'm was talking about WHM here, not Conjurer. Jobs are intended for party play, where it isn't important that WHM is bad at soloing. And in any event, who says WHM can't have offensive abilities? Holy, dark, and non-elemental damage types seem to fit them just fine (maybe vary the holy/dark switch by stance).

He asked for one example of how elemental weaknesses and strengths could be handled, implying that there wasn't one. So I whipped one up, because of course there are ways to make it work.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#32 May 31 2013 at 7:23 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
970 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
One of the reason why I hated WHM in FFXI is that leveling it early on was boring. Boring as all ****. Especially with the way that FFXIV is more solo friendly, Conjurer/WHM needs a way to be able to solo leves. It doesn't have to be DPS, but it can't be completely helpless, either.


Be careful that you're not confusing WHM and Conjurer.

I'm was talking about WHM here, not Conjurer. Jobs are intended for party play, where it isn't important that WHM is bad at soloing. And in any event, who says WHM can't have offensive abilities? Holy, dark, and non-elemental damage types seem to fit them just fine (maybe vary the holy/dark switch by stance).

He asked for one example of how elemental weaknesses and strengths could be handled, implying that there wasn't one. So I whipped one up, because of course there are ways to make it work.

Exactly.. White mage is supposed to be bad at soloing. Otherwise classes will be downplayed and ignored. Jobs supposed to kick *** in party but lack at soloing. And classes supposed to kick *** at soloing but lack in defined party play.

Sure I don't see an issue with white mage getting Holy spells or some offensive capability though.
#33 May 31 2013 at 7:43 AM Rating: Decent
sandpark wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
One of the reason why I hated WHM in FFXI is that leveling it early on was boring. Boring as all ****. Especially with the way that FFXIV is more solo friendly, Conjurer/WHM needs a way to be able to solo leves. It doesn't have to be DPS, but it can't be completely helpless, either.


Be careful that you're not confusing WHM and Conjurer.

I'm was talking about WHM here, not Conjurer. Jobs are intended for party play, where it isn't important that WHM is bad at soloing. And in any event, who says WHM can't have offensive abilities? Holy, dark, and non-elemental damage types seem to fit them just fine (maybe vary the holy/dark switch by stance).

He asked for one example of how elemental weaknesses and strengths could be handled, implying that there wasn't one. So I whipped one up, because of course there are ways to make it work.

Exactly.. White mage is supposed to be bad at soloing. Otherwise classes will be downplayed and ignored. Jobs supposed to kick *** in party but lack at soloing. And classes supposed to kick *** at soloing but lack in defined party play.

Sure I don't see an issue with white mage getting Holy spells or some offensive capability though.


Quick easy solution to that is if you're giving White Mage specific dmg spells, then have a medium cooldown on them so they aren't spammable. Not like 45+ secs but not a piddly 5 secs either.
____________________________
Michael Tyrael
#34 May 31 2013 at 7:52 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,755 posts

There's much more to say on this topic but I can't help but feel it's moot. We're arguing over things that are far beyond our capacity to change at this point regardless of the continuation of the conversation or not. If this issue is a game-breaker for you, I'm sorry.

However, I can see the virtues in what they are doing, especially given the lore and mechanical paths they've taken. If they were to implement the elemental wheel with the current skill distribution - Black and White Mages would become opposing party slots, with White Mage having a significant advantage due to being a healer on top of having half the elemental wheel to themselves. And taking it from them destroys the job in canon, while at the same time makes Black Mage even more overpowered than it was in 1.0's version.

You'd have to do more than redesign the classes. You'd practically have to redesign the game's history and at that point it's not about recreating the game so much as the entire world, past present and future. Ignoring the fact that I'm personally not ok with that, it's just not feasible or practical.

We can **** our heads against each other and the wall on this all we like, but it won't do much of anything.

Rather than argue over each specific point, I'd rather encourage changes that add depth and richness without flat out going 'doitoveragain!' to SE.

What I would like to see as developments with the current elemental system:

Instead of elemental strength/weakness tabs being the control over which spell to use. I'd like to see more versatility in how the Disciples of Magic can be played. When we look back at 1.0, we can see that in Melee there were builds that emphasized critical hits, and some builds that just pushed for base stats and attack.

For example, Fire could be a raw DPS element that favors dependable DPS off of base stats and not much variance to damage, where Lightning can be high-risk, high-reward with heavy modifications on critical attack, but lower base damage. Then, as players start off, they can chose whether or not they want to build a specific path to help their entry level performances, or simply have one preferred style for that class/job combination.

There is more depth to be had than the simple rock-paper-scissors method of elements that again, seems to be quite overused in RPGs and I'm glad the concept is being challenged here. I was leery at first but I'm slowly getting more excited as to how all this is going to play out.
#35 May 31 2013 at 7:54 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,755 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:


He asked for one example of how elemental weaknesses and strengths could be handled, implying that there wasn't one. So I whipped one up, because of course there are ways to make it work.


You have to force the issue every time however to make the elemental system 'work'.

But overall, balance wise? It's a logistical nightmare. Again, it's not worth extrapolating on unless you want to have a pragmatics and game design lesson.
#36 May 31 2013 at 8:04 AM Rating: Good
****
6,898 posts
I'd love to see some kind of elemental affinity stance for all casting jobs. When you toggle it on, you gain the pluses and minuses of normal resistances: for instance Ifrit becomes extra susceptible to Ice and absorbs Fire, but none of the additional effects activate (burns for fire, freeze or slow for ice, etc). When you toggle it off, the affinities reset and you get normal damage from spells plus the added effects. This way, no job is outcast by having only certain elemental spells, but in certain circumstances can click it on or off and excel based on the content being fought.

It adds a layer of depth to combat for mage classes, as well as some strategy. You could even have it set up so that if more than 1 person in a party activates the affinity mode, you only get an 80% effectiveness, and so on down the line (3=50%, 4=25%, 5=10%) so that you don't just get a party full of blms in elemental mode spamming fire spells against Shiva.

I'm sure there are some holes in this idea, but I think it would be an interesting way to still incorporate resistances without breaking the game.
#37 May 31 2013 at 8:13 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
**
599 posts
It would be nice to be included - then Red mages could have en-spells to bring their melee damage up with everyone else if they were brought in.
#38 May 31 2013 at 8:20 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
970 posts
Hyrist wrote:

However, I can see the virtues in what they are doing, especially given the lore and mechanical paths they've taken. If they were to implement the elemental wheel with the current skill distribution - Black and White Mages would become opposing party slots, with White Mage having a significant advantage due to being a healer on top of having half the elemental wheel to themselves. And taking it from them destroys the job in canon, while at the same time makes Black Mage even more overpowered than it was in 1.0's version.
Black mages are opposing party slots in every FF. They even are named by opposite colors. The overpowering of spells by sub class can be overcome by granting specific traits to native jobs or classes only. Black mages are overpowered due to enemy design not the job itself.

Hyrist wrote:

Rather than argue over each specific point, I'd rather encourage changes that add depth and richness without flat out going 'doitoveragain!' to SE.

What I would like to see as developments with the current elemental system:

Instead of elemental strength/weakness tabs being the control over which spell to use. I'd like to see more versatility in how the Disciples of Magic can be played. When we look back at 1.0, we can see that in Melee there were builds that emphasized critical hits, and some builds that just pushed for base stats and attack.

For example, Fire could be a raw DPS element that favors dependable DPS off of base stats and not much variance to damage, where Lightning can be high-risk, high-reward with heavy modifications on critical attack, but lower base damage. Then, as players start off, they can chose whether or not they want to build a specific path to help their entry level performances, or simply have one preferred style for that class/job combination.

There is more depth to be had than the simple rock-paper-scissors method of elements that again, seems to be quite overused in RPGs and I'm glad the concept is being challenged here. I was leery at first but I'm slowly getting more excited as to how all this is going to play out.

Well the thing is, all of these improvements can be added in harmony with the elemental weakness traits. There is nothing to prevent this.
#39 May 31 2013 at 8:30 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
970 posts
BartelX wrote:
I'd love to see some kind of elemental affinity stance for all casting jobs. When you toggle it on, you gain the pluses and minuses of normal resistances: for instance Ifrit becomes extra susceptible to Ice and absorbs Fire, but none of the additional effects activate (burns for fire, freeze or slow for ice, etc). When you toggle it off, the affinities reset and you get normal damage from spells plus the added effects. This way, no job is outcast by having only certain elemental spells, but in certain circumstances can click it on or off and excel based on the content being fought.

It adds a layer of depth to combat for mage classes, as well as some strategy. You could even have it set up so that if more than 1 person in a party activates the affinity mode, you only get an 80% effectiveness, and so on down the line (3=50%, 4=25%, 5=10%) so that you don't just get a party full of blms in elemental mode spamming fire spells against Shiva.

I'm sure there are some holes in this idea, but I think it would be an interesting way to still incorporate resistances without breaking the game.

I like the idea of toggles. I mentioned the decayable rates idea in another thread. This shouldn't just apply to mages. But melee as well. To make us diversify and plan certain skill usage.
#40 May 31 2013 at 8:39 AM Rating: Good
****
6,898 posts
Initially I had included it with melee also, for weapons with elemental properties on them. I suppose it would work almost the same way as with mages, and you could even add in stuff to the weapons like if its toggled off, the weapons gain "Additional Effect: Burn" etc with a % based chance of proc. I think something like this would add a great deal of strategy to the game.
#41 May 31 2013 at 8:48 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,755 posts
Quote:
Black mages are opposing party slots in every FF. They even are named by opposite colors. The overpowering of spells by sub class can be overcome by granting specific traits to native jobs or classes only. Black mages are overpowered due to enemy design not the job itself.


That's a false notion if I've ever seen one.

A class that has access to the entirety o the elemental wheel, inherently is overpowered because it is always left with an avenue to exploit. If the exploitation is ineffectual than the use of the elemental wheel itself is moot.

Pardon the pun, but it's literally and figuratively a black and white issue. The elemental system is either overpowered or under-powered to the degree of pointless. You can't appropriately balance it without rendering it impotent. It is functionally impossible.

Example: An elemental weakness of 1.5x standard damage for appropriate element exploitation means any damage not meeting that exploit fails to meet standard now. That 1.5x is the new 1.0 to anyone who cares about damage.

If you scale other magical damage up to meet it, or scale the elemental aspects down, you then render the purpose of the elemental system moot, and you're just flooding your spellbook with identical spells that are doing the exact same thing as the others in different situations. That's not depth, that's monotony.

Additionally: If you provide damage that is non-elemental, it will either be stronger over elementals, or inferior and not worth usage unless the enemy is strong against all elements but has no innate non-elemental magic resistance, and then you've ruled out black mage.




Quote:
Well the thing is, all of these improvements can be added in harmony with the elemental weakness traits. There is nothing to prevent this.


Except the innate logistical nightmare that is an elemental weakness system in a multiplayer field. But again, I don't want to get into a game development lesson here.
#42 May 31 2013 at 9:08 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
970 posts
Hyrist wrote:

That's a false notion if I've ever seen one.

A class that has access to the entirety o the elemental wheel, inherently is overpowered because it is always left with an avenue to exploit. If the exploitation is ineffectual than the use of the elemental wheel itself is moot.

A class that has access to the entirety of the flavor of the month weaponskill is overpowered because it is always left with an avenue to exploit. If the exploitation is ineffectual then the use of that weaponskill itself is moot.

Hyrist wrote:
Pardon the pun, but it's literally and figuratively a black and white issue. The elemental system is either overpowered or under-powered to the degree of pointless. You can't appropriately balance it without rendering it impotent. It is functionally impossible.

Example: An elemental weakness of 1.5x standard damage for appropriate element exploitation means any damage not meeting that exploit fails to meet standard now. That 1.5x is the new 1.0 to anyone who cares about damage.

If you scale other magical damage up to meet it, or scale the elemental aspects down, you then render the purpose of the elemental system moot, and you're just flooding your spellbook with identical spells that are doing the exact same thing as the others in different situations. That's not depth, that's monotony.

Additionally: If you provide damage that is non-elemental, it will either be stronger over elementals, or inferior and not worth usage unless the enemy is strong against all elements but has no innate non-elemental magic resistance, and then you've ruled out black mage.

Even a very small exploit in a certain element is not moot if you built your character in that particular element. If the only aspect was damage then you might have a point. Make those spells have additional properties such as Bartel and you yourself suggested. Monotony is having single tiers of spells and hitting the same button over and over. If you have to select from multiple choices depending on the situation, there in lies depth. A decayable rate alleviates the need to spam as well.

Enemy design is the driving force behind what is overpowered or not, not the class design. If someone puts all their eggs in one basket for say Thunder. And every enemy is not weak to thunder or some absorb it. The thunder which was your strength in the last encounter becomes nulled in the current encounter. Just do not make the difference in power so grandiose between each element. That would lead to parties excluding or including you based off that. Create a balanced global enemy design where weaknesses differ and it balances the rest of the world.
#43 May 31 2013 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
****
6,898 posts
Hyrist wrote:
Except the innate logistical nightmare that is an elemental weakness system in a multiplayer field. But again, I don't want to get into a game development lesson here.


Or it could just be like the system I just mentioned above with the toggle. It wouldn't be a logistical nightmare in the slightest, and since the elemental weaknesses were already in the game, it wouldn't be a problem development-wise. All it requires is adding in a universal toggle to all classes that is basically an on/off switch for the elemental weakness/strength system as a whole. I could code something like that in less than a day using simple if statements or for loops.
#44 May 31 2013 at 9:51 AM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,675 posts
Hyrist wrote:


There is more depth to be had than the simple rock-paper-scissors method of elements that again, seems to be quite overused in RPGs and I'm glad the concept is being challenged here. I was leery at first but I'm slowly getting more excited as to how all this is going to play out.


My fear (along with Kachi) is that I don't think SE is challenging this notion as much as they are omitting it; taking the path of least resistance.

I hope I'm wrong and in the end if a non-elemental system works I'm not going to keep crying about this.

But, like Bartelx stated a FF game has things like elements and tiered spells and these are things that are almost as important as moogles and chocobo.

Also its probably been stated but this is the (obvious) key factor why RDM isn't around.

In the end although I am slightly surprised and somewhat disappointed, I also think that this could be a great opportunity to create something new; put a new spin on RDM, and other classes if and when they do come out. I just hope Yoshi seizes this and is challenging this system rather than doing nothing.

I think your suggestions are great and would leave the spirit of an elemental system but change things up a bit.

I'm actually interested in what a RDM would look like without En-spells.
#45 May 31 2013 at 10:13 AM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
**
362 posts
I was upset at the removal at first, but I'm kind of over it now. I do like the idea that they're giving different properties to the elements if they're going to take away the wheel aspect. Aero - dot, Fire - aoe, Blizzard - slow, etc. I hope they continue with that though, instead of taking the one time write-off of the wheel. For instance, a RDM with EN- spells could be imbued with a similar property, not just damage. RDM uses Enfire and now every melee hit splashes fire damage. Enblizzard afflicts slow on hit. Enaero applies a stacking dot to the target. Now it would be more of a choice than just, "Oh I'm fighting a bunch of XX elementals, might as well EnXX now."

I guess in the end, we can just blame Tanaka for a crappy 1.0 that started the game with a Conjurer that had the entire wheel and healing spells. We're still digging ourselves out and that's not the last thing we'll be dealing with.
____________________________
Anakte Grey
BLM 50 SMN/SCH 50 WHM 40
MRD 26 DRG 30 MNK 30 GLA 25

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/416469141_Vt5aq-XL-2.jpg
#46 May 31 2013 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,755 posts
Gah, I am going to get sucked into do it, aren't I? Awell...

sandpark wrote:

A class that has access to the entirety of the flavor of the month weaponskill is overpowered because it is always left with an avenue to exploit. If the exploitation is ineffectual then the use of that weaponskill itself is moot.


You say it sarcastically, but you're catching on at least. First Order Operators, is the term. The elemental system creates FAR more opportunities for them than a weapon-skill system, however, though it's just as suspect.


Quote:

Even a very small exploit in a certain element is not moot if you built your character in that particular element. If the only aspect was damage then you might have a point. Make those spells have additional properties such as Bartel and you yourself suggested. Monotony is having single tiers of spells and hitting the same button over and over. If you have to select from multiple choices depending on the situation, there in lies depth. A decayable rate alleviates the need to spam as well.


The damage curve isn't needed in this circumstance, however, and all it does is fight against the very mechanics suggested in terms of priority. Again all your 'small exploit' at that point serves is to needlessly expand your spell list. For an elemental damage system to be a matter of relevance, it has to be significant. Otherwise it simply dosen't need to exist. There are better ways at that point to make the elements stand out, as been suggested.

Quote:
Enemy design is the driving force behind what is overpowered or not, not the class design. If someone puts all their eggs in one basket for say Thunder. And every enemy is not weak to thunder or some absorb it. The thunder which was your strength in the last encounter becomes nulled in the current encounter. Just do not make the difference in power so grandiose between each element. That would lead to parties excluding or including you based off that. Create a balanced global enemy design where weaknesses differ and it balances the rest of the world.


You keep mentioning enemy design and class design as if they are relevant components to the discussion as a separation. We're talking system design. The moment you really separate the two you lose ground on the argument.

When you design an enemy, you are effectively designing with or against the core system mechanics you designed.

Elemental wheels create a very regimented set of exploits within the core system itself. No matter how many times you design mechanics create gateways, the elemental system always boils it down to your base damage equations, and the fact that they have a capitalizing modifier. You would have to design mechanics specifically against the very exploit you designed in the system to begin with, every time, without fail. To balance that out with encounter design.

That's a lot of unnecessary work for the illusion of combat depth, and your player base is going to see right through it and pick the first order operators anyways. In the case of a class with the full of the elemental wheel, they are now a shoe-in against any class that does not, especially when their core design, such as Black Mage, is built purely to deal damage, and lots of it - they become that first order operator at a much higher percentage than someone who does not have the same number of short cuts through the gated system.

The best idea in encounter design (Monster design as you call it) as far as creating a dynamic and open combat idea is essentially objective based encounters. Less about meeting out the best DPS, more about meeting the side requirements in the fight that distract from and/or threaten your success or level of it. At this point, default elemental weaknesses are essentially pointless, because you can create a checklist that composes multiple options. You can instead create more global vulnerabilities for meeting the objective efficiently.

SE has already begun to display methods of combat that is dynamic and thrilling without the need of specific elemental weaknesses. Given the construct of the game's lore and how the skills are distributed between jobs, there's no real sound way of implementing elemental weaknesses without it harming other parts of its mechanics, lore, or both.
#47 May 31 2013 at 12:51 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
970 posts
Hyrist wrote:

You say it sarcastically, but you're catching on at least. First Order Operators, is the term. The elemental system creates FAR more opportunities for them than a weapon-skill system, however, though it's just as suspect.

I was not being sarcastic if it seemed that way. The elemental system does not or will not create FAR more opportunities for them than a weapon-skill system. If they design 90% of enemies weak to piercing or some particular weapon-skill out of the tens. You get the same result.

Hyrist wrote:

The damage curve isn't needed in this circumstance, however, and all it does is fight against the very mechanics suggested in terms of priority. Again all your 'small exploit' at that point serves is to needlessly expand your spell list. For an elemental damage system to be a matter of relevance, it has to be significant. Otherwise it simply dosen't need to exist. There are better ways at that point to make the elements stand out, as been suggested.

That small exploit is what every hardcore player strived for in FFXI. It usually wasn't a major difference in gear. But they fought for the +1 or +2 this. And gear swapped like Micheal Jackson pulling down little boys pants.

Hyrist wrote:
You keep mentioning enemy design and class design as if they are relevant components to the discussion as a separation. We're talking system design. The moment you really separate the two you lose ground on the argument.

When you design an enemy, you are effectively designing with or against the core system mechanics you designed

They are very relevant. You can design your classes first which will be designed before most of the enemies in most cases. Regardless of how powerful you make a class. If the enemies are all weak to it as opposed to other classes, that's a red flag. If the enemies are all strong to it as opposed to it, that's a red flag..

Hyrist wrote:
Elemental wheels create a very regimented set of exploits within the core system itself. No matter how many times you design mechanics create gateways, the elemental system always boils it down to your base damage equations, and the fact that they have a capitalizing modifier. You would have to design mechanics specifically against the very exploit you designed in the system to begin with, every time, without fail. To balance that out with encounter design.

That's a lot of unnecessary work for the illusion of combat depth, and your player base is going to see right through it and pick the first order operators anyways. In the case of a class with the full of the elemental wheel, they are now a shoe-in against any class that does not, especially when their core design, such as Black Mage, is built purely to deal damage, and lots of it - they become that first order operator at a much higher percentage than someone who does not have the same number of short cuts through the gated system.

Again you are assuming that monsters would be created as they were in FFXI. There is no first order operator if you start with the fundamentals of not creating all monsters weak to the same spell or weaponskill.

Hyrist wrote:
The best idea in encounter design (Monster design as you call it) as far as creating a dynamic and open combat idea is essentially objective based encounters. Less about meeting out the best DPS, more about meeting the side requirements in the fight that distract from and/or threaten your success or level of it. At this point, default elemental weaknesses are essentially pointless, because you can create a checklist that composes multiple options. You can instead create more global vulnerabilities for meeting the objective efficiently.

SE has already begun to display methods of combat that is dynamic and thrilling without the need of specific elemental weaknesses. Given the construct of the game's lore and how the skills are distributed between jobs, there's no real sound way of implementing elemental weaknesses without it harming other parts of its mechanics, lore, or both.

No one is going to be fighting in a dynamic fun combat system and stop.. "Wait this isn't right. How could they put this in here? It goes against the lore, take it out of the game!"

The encounters should take everything into account including objective based, dps, and side requirements in the fights. The outside perspective from other websites with sneak previews is leaning towards not so dynamic or thrilling currently. I think the one big website that did say something positive was mmorpg. Stating that it was old fashioned but cerebral.

I am not saying that your ideas are bad. Quite the contrary, I am saying some of them are good and so were Bartel's. My argument is that elemental wheels must be removed to achieve those things. Adding layers upon layers and not subtracting them. They do not need to be removed as they add more depth.

#48 May 31 2013 at 12:55 PM Rating: Excellent
******
48,478 posts
chrisatron wrote:
This removes a lot of strategy I think and also gives old spells no re-usability later down the line..
First, figure out the elemental weakness of the monsters you're fighting. Then take note of what elemental day it is. Also take note if any weather effects are taking place. Then take into account whether your gear enhances the spells you're planning on using. Then cast Thunder on it anyway.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#49 May 31 2013 at 2:47 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,755 posts
lolgaxe wrote:
chrisatron wrote:
This removes a lot of strategy I think and also gives old spells no re-usability later down the line..
First, figure out the elemental weakness of the monsters you're fighting. Then take note of what elemental day it is. Also take note if any weather effects are taking place. Then take into account whether your gear enhances the spells you're planning on using. Then cast Thunder on it anyway.


Yeah. This.

Really it's ok to disagree. The decision making is done. You can disagree with the reasons but the argument doesn't hold any weight because their opinion on the importats of balance and lore differs from yours, and they are the one with the hands on the controls.

Now as far as the 'old skills losing use'. You couldn't be further from wrong on that.

In fact, the old skill system had wasted skills. FFXI was notorious for dead old spells. Spells in FFXIV, even in 1.23 were used through the levels due to the fact that they're being treated more akin to skills. The combo system did a good job making sure all skills in the line were useful in 1.23, including spells. So if anything, in the current system, you're actually encouraged to use your spells more together throughout the whole of your game, then you are in a situation where say, one element is completely out of the question due to enemy element, and another is overpowered.

Context sensitive play will keep the strategy going, we're really not losing anything that can't be made up for here.
#50 May 31 2013 at 3:11 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Louiscool wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Kierk wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised if the elements were put back in, in a few months from now.


Very unlikely. They'd have to go in and add the code to too many things. If they can't see the value of it now, they almost definitely won't add it later when it will be even harder.

Quote:
BLM being given the whole elemental wheel goes against existing FFXIV lore, it's very doubtful anything could be done to that. Even if they wanted to.


BLM doesn't need the entire elemental wheel. The only issue is if there's a class that has only or mostly only access to elements which would be a significant weakness in battle. If you can't design your way around that problem,you can't design your way out of a paper bag.


Or, you know, you could also just agree that the ele wheel is a tired and boring concept. I mean we agree on that, right? So why is SE getting bashed? because their reasons weren't good enough? I'm happy to see it go in lieu of interesting spell mechanics.


Late to the party so this is kind of @Hyrist and @Louis

Personally, for me, the elemental wheel won't be missed. I've said many times before that it's a lazy way to promote "strategy." It's a tired mechanic that hasn't been novel since shortly after the release of Pokemon (who did much more with it than FF ever did).

Having said that, it does not create all the design problems that you're attributing to it (Hyrist). It's a perfectly legitimate strategic systems mechanic when used as intended, and is perfectly capable of working well within XIV. So yes, my beef is with the why of the decision rather than the what of it. I even agree that objective-based mechanics provide far more interesting options. But that is a matter of encounter design, and I just don't expect that we'll be getting a lot of that. At the end of the day, I don't see this as anything but dumbing down the system, even if only by a few IQ points.

So for me, I say it wouldn't be missed in lieu of a more interesting and engaging mechanism. But I don't expect to see one, nor can I see any way in which removing this mechanic is a boon to some other mechanic. Overall, I find the decision to be mostly ineffectual, but more negative than positive, and I find the reason for its removal to be yet another indication that whoever is in charge of these things is making it up as they go. Which is pretty par the course for game designers, mind you.

tl;dr: I won't miss the elemental wheel, but the reasons for its removal don't invoke much confidence in the design team's ability.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#51 May 31 2013 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
***
1,313 posts
I'm far more concerned with raid encounters having active battle mechanics. There should be floors caving in, meteors raining down (that you can avoid), multiple targets on large enemies, facing away mechanics, jumping over sh*t mechanics, etc. etc. I was far more sad to see Yoshi state that jumping would not be required to complete any content. What is the purpose of having it if it won't be included in quests and fights? A quest requiring you to hop between floating rocks for example, or jumping a firewall headed toward you. I'm not seeing any on your feet, reflex challenging content thus far. As long as it's strategic in some other manner, I suppose we'll be ok.

Edited, May 31st 2013 5:52pm by Transmigration
____________________________
Eithne Draocht
My IG: archaicmachinery - Friend me!
« Previous 1 2
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 138 All times are in CDT
Allegory, Vaaniks, Anonymous Guests (136)