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Elemental Weakness and ResistanceFollow

#52 May 31 2013 at 3:53 PM Rating: Good
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I'm just curious, are any of you professional game designers? I ask because a lot of you talk as if what you're stating is fact, and that you are so adamant that what you say is right and what someone else says is wrong, when so much of it seems to be opinion based or grey area. So I'm just wondering what your experience levels are with actual game design. I don't mean stuff like "well I've been playing games for 25 years and blah blah..." as I think just about all of us fit into that category. I mean have you been on the development teams of successful games, how long have you been in the field, etc. I'm not trying to demean anyone, I really am just curious.

Transmigration wrote:
I was far more sad to see Yoshi state that jumping would not be required to complete any content. What is the purpose of having it if it won't be included in quests and fights? A quest requiring you to hop between floating rocks for example, or jumping a firewall headed toward you.


I agree with this. I was dissappointed when I read that. I'd love something like the Attowha Chasm mountain climb, only with jumps thrown in there... or battles where you are being chased down a corridor and have to jump over obstacles. Stuff like that where the world really comes to life and is a part of the danger.

Edited, May 31st 2013 5:56pm by BartelX
#53 May 31 2013 at 3:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi, I am shocked!

Given your impeccable track record of steadfast confidence in the company through its trials and tribulations, I am admonished that your once unshakable faith is now tarnished by a shred of doub-

Oh- wait, never-mind. Smiley: lol

On a more serious note. The conditions in which elemental wheels work is when they are the core mechanic, meaning the game mostly surrounds itself on the establishment and exploitation of weaknesses throughout and there are only rare exceptions.

Given the, (From the description of the media releases about the beta) dungeon-based orientation of leveling and frequency of bosses with different encounter methods. I'd dare say that mechanics that force you to change up your tactics, is something we can expect to be habitual, if no where else than the very same fields that the Media has already affirmed themselves.

The Pods in Toto-Rak and the Boss there, that Wint himself has described twice now, already seem to force you to be more than simply DPSing blindly. But be aware of your positioning and the existence of adds, mobs and area effects. If this trend continues I don't believe there is much validity in saying that this was a cop-out decision, rather than acknowledging that they have other means of keeping fights interesting, rather than keeping in mind that rock does in fact beat scissors.

Depending on the extent of the partial NDA release, I'm sure we'll be hearing a lot more of it in the future, especially with more than Gridania's zones being available to test out.

Edited, May 31st 2013 5:59pm by Hyrist
#54 May 31 2013 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'm just curious, are any of you professional game designers? I ask because a lot of you talk as if what you're stating is fact, and that you are so adamant that what you say is right and what someone else says is wrong, when so much of it seems to be opinion based or grey area. So I'm just wondering what your experience levels are with actual game design.


The 'professional level' of game design is incredibly hard to crack into, regardless of whether or not you are trained in computer programming and graphic design. Striking it out on your own to try to produce your own game, is also quite more difficult than the pure goldemin people like Mojang gets into (who really had a source code to work off of, which saves a lot of time.)

So no, I don't have my name in the field as a programmer or artist like I would very much desire for. But I do have six years (three and three of the two fields respectively) training in both basic fields and tend to follow gaming as a field, rather than the 'I've played games' bit. Personally, it was due to some highly dumb life decisions on my part, but I severely doubt I'll be getting into game design on the professional level. But who knows, that can still change, right?

Provided the flood that went through my stuff three years ago hasn't destroyed ALL of my notes, and old hard drives, I've still got an old framework for that Metroidvania game I still dream about creating.
#55 May 31 2013 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
Personally, it was due to some highly dumb life decisions on my part, but I severely doubt I'll be getting into game design on the professional level. But who knows, that can still change, right?


Ha, that about sums up my lot as well. Planned on being a game developer, was stupid and went to the wrong college and picked a major that was relevant, but not the right major, and here I am working as a graphic designer on the outside looking in. I too highly doubt I'll ever be there on a professional level.

As far as my experience in game design (only fair I share mine since I posted the question), I have extensive experience coding in flash and html, and actually started designing a flash based mmo several years ago. The sheer logistical nightmare of that forced me to can the idea, but not until after several 10,000 lines of code and a pretty boss random encounter engine. Flash just isn't the right medium for an mmo really. Not nearly enough processing power. I also have extensive experience coding games in RPG Maker for fun. Not really much to the coding there, but still some fun little side projects.

I have dreams to one day create a Greek Mythology-based MMO pitting the realm of Zeus vs. Hades vs. Poseidon in a 3 way power struggle (loosely based off the Perseus Jackson line of books, lol I know), but I doubt that will ever come to fruition.
#56 May 31 2013 at 4:25 PM Rating: Decent
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@Bartel: My background is mostly in educational games and physical activities (so games like sports), as is my doctoral degree. I've been working full time on a commercial project for over a year now and have game design documents for a few projects of varying scales. Also in talks with a couple other groups about working on other projects, but still feeling those out. I'm not the most renowned game designer on the block but I'm not a hobbyist either.

Hyrist wrote:
Kachi, I am shocked!

Given your impeccable track record of steadfast confidence in the company through its trials and tribulations, I am admonished that your once unshakable faith is now tarnished by a shred of doub-

Oh- wait, never-mind. Smiley: lol

On a more serious note. The conditions in which elemental wheels work is when they are the core mechanic, meaning the game mostly surrounds itself on the establishment and exploitation of weaknesses throughout and there are only rare exceptions.

Given the, (From the description of the media releases about the beta) dungeon-based orientation of leveling and frequency of bosses with different encounter methods. I'd dare say that mechanics that force you to change up your tactics, is something we can expect to be habitual, if no where else than the very same fields that the Media has already affirmed themselves.

The Pods in Toto-Rak and the Boss there, that Wint himself has described twice now, already seem to force you to be more than simply DPSing blindly. But be aware of your positioning and the existence of adds, mobs and area effects. If this trend continues I don't believe there is much validity in saying that this was a cop-out decision, rather than acknowledging that they have other means of keeping fights interesting, rather than keeping in mind that rock does in fact beat scissors.

Depending on the extent of the partial NDA release, I'm sure we'll be hearing a lot more of it in the future, especially with more than Gridania's zones being available to test out.

Edited, May 31st 2013 5:59pm by Hyrist


Elemental wheels do not need to be the core mechanic to work. Elemental wheels are scarcely even a "mechanic" as much as a statistic, fundamentally having very little different from statistical "mechanics" like Strength, Defense, etc. They're really just a narrative manifestation of statistics used to convey the "balance rules" to the players. So they are generally not problematic to implement in ANY strategy game when a bit of sense is used.

Problems arise when the player themselves rather than their abilities become the elemental "object." In those cases, the player runs the risk of being the "weak element." E.g., you don't take Paper to a fight against Scissors. But that's got to be one of the easiest design pratfalls to avoid.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#57 May 31 2013 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:

Problems arise when the player themselves rather than their abilities become the elemental "object." In those cases, the player runs the risk of being the "weak element." E.g., you don't take Paper to a fight against Scissors. But that's got to be one of the easiest design pratfalls to avoid.


In a single player enviroment I'd agree with you.

But in a multiplayer and most especially in a massive multiplayer environment you run into instances where the First Order Operators stack into a compounding problem due to the sheer number of players working for the 'best' advantage.

It's not so much as not being the odd one out as it is not being the cool kid in the bunch. You can try to program it out as much as you like, the players will find ways around it to shove out the 'weak links' in favor of the path of least resistance, even if those other methods are adaquate.

It's easier to align the performance levels into a more acceptable error range if you reduce the number of free variables you're working with. For instance. Instead of each element in turn, MND based magic or INT based magic could have resistances, or Magic in general if the encounter is designed to have that specific component taken out by a Melee or a physical ranged. They did this well in 1.23. The resistances really weren't a matter of what element the enemy was weak against, but what type of damage they were vulernable two. It helped give every class and class type a role to fill, and I think they should expand on that.
#58 May 31 2013 at 5:39 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:

I have dreams to one day create a Greek Mythology-based MMO pitting the realm of Zeus vs. Hades vs. Poseidon in a 3 way power struggle (loosely based off the Perseus Jackson line of books, lol I know), but I doubt that will ever come to fruition.


I'm more of the graphics end of it than programming. I was working on a litteral mod creation for Super Metroid and Castlevania STON as a basis (which came with its own limitations.) I just did not have the programming background to construct from scratch. Attempted to jump into the field of programming, then money fell short.

My idea was to take the concepts of, what was at the time .hack, but now more adequately describe by minecraft and Terraria, and apply them to a metroidvania experience. Picture Minecraft's expansiveness paired with Terriaria's play-style, but with more emphasis on character building than enviroment building, with a fair story to boot.

The story and construction concept rand off the idea that the protagonist was, literally, a mannequin - a total blank slate for the character to develop their own combat style, appearance, and personality from while at the same time exploring to discover the reason or purpose for existence in what would seem to be a heavily distorted world.

Ideal it would come with multiplayer elements as well, but back when i started it, Multiplayer wasn't as big of a thing as it is now.

Edited, May 31st 2013 7:40pm by Hyrist
#59 May 31 2013 at 5:56 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
I'm just curious, are any of you professional game designers? I ask because a lot of you talk as if what you're stating is fact, and that you are so adamant that what you say is right and what someone else says is wrong, when so much of it seems to be opinion based or grey area. So I'm just wondering what your experience levels are with actual game design. I don't mean stuff like "well I've been playing games for 25 years and blah blah..." as I think just about all of us fit into that category. I mean have you been on the development teams of successful games, how long have you been in the field, etc. I'm not trying to demean anyone, I really am just curious.

Transmigration wrote:
I was far more sad to see Yoshi state that jumping would not be required to complete any content. What is the purpose of having it if it won't be included in quests and fights? A quest requiring you to hop between floating rocks for example, or jumping a firewall headed toward you.


I agree with this. I was dissappointed when I read that. I'd love something like the Attowha Chasm mountain climb, only with jumps thrown in there... or battles where you are being chased down a corridor and have to jump over obstacles. Stuff like that where the world really comes to life and is a part of the danger.

Edited, May 31st 2013 5:56pm by BartelX



My background (BA) is in Philosophy and I've only dabbled in gaming theory/game studies.

I come at most of my discussions with a more logical/philosophical/anecdotal tilt, and less scientific/methodical/developer one.

I couldn't develop my way out of a paper bag; the only thing I can do is "hello world" and some bash/shell scripts.

I've always been interested in being a part of developing a game, brainstorming, ideas, implementing (getting people to implement them, lol) would be awesome.

I've dabbled mostly with things like storynexus/interactive/textbased fiction, because that's a decent way to flesh out a story line and the bones for a game. If I were ever to make a game it would be along the lines of an adventure based one....

...or I could just complain about stuff here. :)

#60 May 31 2013 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
I'm more of the graphics end of it than programming. I was working on a litteral mod creation for Super Metroid and Castlevania STON as a basis (which came with its own limitations.) I just did not have the programming background to construct from scratch. Attempted to jump into the field of programming, then money fell short.

My idea was to take the concepts of, what was at the time .hack, but now more adequately describe by minecraft and Terraria, and apply them to a metroidvania experience. Picture Minecraft's expansiveness paired with Terriaria's play-style, but with more emphasis on character building than enviroment building, with a fair story to boot.

The story and construction concept rand off the idea that the protagonist was, literally, a mannequin - a total blank slate for the character to develop their own combat style, appearance, and personality from while at the same time exploring to discover the reason or purpose for existence in what would seem to be a heavily distorted world.

Ideal it would come with multiplayer elements as well, but back when i started it, Multiplayer wasn't as big of a thing as it is now.


Nice, sounds interesting. I like the idea of the blank slate character and the environment building, sounds like it could be a lot of fun.

I just went rummaging through some old papers and found the outlines I had made for my Greek MMO. I'm going to put spoiler tags in, because this post will probably be crazy long otherwise. Smiley: sly It was going to be called "The Twelve", based around twelve Gods of Greek Mythology. The basic premise was that Hades, Poseidon, and Zeus were at war. Each had recruited 3 of the other Gods and they were battling it out for Olympus. Each God would have 1-4 classes or class trees available. I didn't get to flesh them all out, but here's a rough list:

Zeus (God of Sky, Thunder, Air): Storm Mage (combination damage dealer/healer), Tank class (undetermined)
Poseidon (God of Seas, Earthquakes, Horses): Sea Mage (DD/healer), Cavalry (mounted combat, which would be in-game)
Hades (God of the underworld, the Dead): Possesor (possesses monsters, kinda like a beastmaster), Necromancer, Bone Knight (tank class)
Demeter (God of Fertility, Agriculture, Nature, Seasons): Geomancer, Farmer
Aphrodite (Goddess of Love, Beauty, Sexuality): Charmer (only able to charm human-type enemies but has "pets" to call on), Vixen (combination rogue and soothsayer kinda)
Apollo (God of Light, Healing, Music, poetry, archery, arts): Healer, Bard, Dancer
Ares (God of War, Bloodshed): Barbarian, Warrior
Artemis (Goddess of the Hunt, Moon): Archer, Tidal Mage (not sure on this, needed to flesh it out more)
Athena (Goddess of Wisdom, Crafts, Battle Strategy): Sage, Tactician
Dionysis (God of Wine, Festivities): Drunkard (thinking a tank class where the more you drink, the more damage he can take but the less accurate he becomes or something), Botanist (the whole grape thing)
Hephaestus (God of Fire, the Forge, Blacksmith of the Gods): Blacksmith, Armorsmith, Mechanic, Fire Mage... all would be playable classes, not just crafters
Hermes (Messenger of the Gods, God of Commerce, Thieves): Thief/Rogue, Merchant/Traveler

Obviously still very early in the research phase when I had to can the idea. Needed a lot more fleshing out. Also would have been a crazy amount of classes to try and balance.

Some of the unique gameplay features I was looking to incorporate:

-Battles that incorporate terrain and elevation as part of the tactics
-Different combinations of Gods in the group created special battle bonuses (Hephaestus, Ares, Athena gave you Battle Mastery which increased damage by X%, etc).
-Customizable classes where you pick abilities from an ability pool and level them up
-Good/Evil aura effected by certain quests, responses to events, etc. Aura would effect how NPCs reacted to you, fear and worship or respect and praise, you could extort people if you were feared, they would give you items if you were revered
-Guilds would be able to build their own customizable villages
-Mounted combat
-Temples for quick travel
-Each territory in the game can be taken by any of the 3 sides, updates weekly... bonuses when in a territory you control. Random NPC raids from surrounding territories controlled by other factions
-Colliseum style fighting and PvP, battle royales, create-a-monster battle arena
-Each God would have a starter area, where there would be shops and an AH, but the majority would be player driven. You could buy booths in the town and sell items, you can buy staff for your shops and set them to make certain kinds of items, you can buy upgrades, etc.
-Intergrated Forums/wiki in the game, ie you could open the forums/wiki while in-game for recruitment purposes or to look up quests/items
-Integrated Voice Chat


Those are just some of the early ideas I had. I actually had begun making a user interface for the game that was fully customizable, scalable, etc. I did it as a part of my Masters program. It was a lot of fun, but just way too time-consuming to be realistic. The goal was to get something very basic and then attempt to sell it to a company and just stay on as a creative consultant.

Well... that got incredibly long. Good thing I was bored and my fiance was out. Smiley: lol


#61 May 31 2013 at 10:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
Kachi wrote:

Problems arise when the player themselves rather than their abilities become the elemental "object." In those cases, the player runs the risk of being the "weak element." E.g., you don't take Paper to a fight against Scissors. But that's got to be one of the easiest design pratfalls to avoid.


In a single player enviroment I'd agree with you.

But in a multiplayer and most especially in a massive multiplayer environment you run into instances where the First Order Operators stack into a compounding problem due to the sheer number of players working for the 'best' advantage.

It's not so much as not being the odd one out as it is not being the cool kid in the bunch. You can try to program it out as much as you like, the players will find ways around it to shove out the 'weak links' in favor of the path of least resistance, even if those other methods are adaquate.

It's easier to align the performance levels into a more acceptable error range if you reduce the number of free variables you're working with. For instance. Instead of each element in turn, MND based magic or INT based magic could have resistances, or Magic in general if the encounter is designed to have that specific component taken out by a Melee or a physical ranged. They did this well in 1.23. The resistances really weren't a matter of what element the enemy was weak against, but what type of damage they were vulernable two. It helped give every class and class type a role to fill, and I think they should expand on that.


Again, no more so than for base stats like STR/DEF/etc. It's more difficult if EVERY encounter and abilities is assigned a SINGLE affinity, but it's really not a difficult mathematical problem no matter how you slice it. Strengths and resistances are one of the most fundamental mechanics of strategy games.


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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#62 Jun 01 2013 at 11:06 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:


Again, no more so than for base stats like STR/DEF/etc. It's more difficult if EVERY encounter and abilities is assigned a SINGLE affinity, but it's really not a difficult mathematical problem no matter how you slice it. Strengths and resistances are one of the most fundamental mechanics of strategy games.




Yes, but you're neglecting the idea that elemental wheels often serve as a bypass to the strengths and resistance calculations unless it becomes a fundamentally accessible component.

If a character is weak to say, piercing, but yet is also weak to ice magic. Your Black Mage will take priroity over your Dragoon simply because Black Mage has less risk due to its access range and high performance floor. Unless there is something that would give Dragoons an edge additionally. At that point, you're designing your battle against your core components, rather than using them to accentuate or improve upon your core components. The designers are fighting themselves to tweak balance rather than making a more inventive and enjoyable battle.

Conversely, say that Ramuh is weak to magic, particularly Earth, but virtually immune to thunder, and you've pushed Black mage out in favor of the current incarnation of WHITE Mage, simply because BLM's fire is going to be inefficient against a caster who can both DD and cure effectively because the elemental wheel comes into their favor.

They would have to play against their own designs in this case, basic building blocks of strategy games or not.

Removing the Elemental Wheel is in this case removing the fifth wheel on a car. The Elemental Wheel wasn't functioning to any real beneficial effect in 1.0. Factors that balanced out the inequities of magic were being applied to ALL magic types and elements. As well as the components in the encounters that encouraged magical usage or gave them a specific purpose. And these methods were more inventive than "Use Fire/Wind/Ice." Though that can still be applied in more specific cases, likely having more than one trigger. It's just no longer a default requirement to be efficient in a fight. Which is good considering PUGs will be managed primarily by computer sorting with Content Finder. Trust me, you don't want to end up cursing the twelve that you got into a Ramuh fight with a Black Mage who's decked out their thunder spells and is just trying for his Judgement Staff.

The fights themselves will be plenty deep without the elemental wheel. They were with Garuda, United We Stand, To Kill a Raven. These fights were just the right level of depth to encourage team-based play without hamstringing people. Most especially United We Stand which I say has been the best feeling fight encounter I've had in a very, very long time. There were multiple effective means of getting that fight done with multiple different set-ups. It was challenging enough to have things go wrong and force you to understand what exactly was going on, and the truely skilled it was just a blast to rip through even if you dominated it. And the elemental wheel had absolutely nothing to do with it.

So I really do not mind them reducing the variables they're forced to control in this sense. There is plenty of ways to add depth to the combat that doesn't involve arbitrary stat manipulation. And the system of weaknesses and strenghts can still apply without the elemental wheel. Hopefully they're more context sensitive than passively existent as well.
#63 Jun 02 2013 at 8:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Yes, but you're neglecting the idea that elemental wheels often serve as a bypass to the strengths and resistance calculations unless it becomes a fundamentally accessible component.

If a character is weak to say, piercing, but yet is also weak to ice magic. Your Black Mage will take priroity over your Dragoon simply because Black Mage has less risk due to its access range and high performance floor. Unless there is something that would give Dragoons an edge additionally. At that point, you're designing your battle against your core components, rather than using them to accentuate or improve upon your core components. The designers are fighting themselves to tweak balance rather than making a more inventive and enjoyable battle.

Conversely, say that Ramuh is weak to magic, particularly Earth, but virtually immune to thunder, and you've pushed Black mage out in favor of the current incarnation of WHITE Mage, simply because BLM's fire is going to be inefficient against a caster who can both DD and cure effectively because the elemental wheel comes into their favor.

They would have to play against their own designs in this case, basic building blocks of strategy games or not.


Designers aren't generally inputting generic "weak against" codes. There's a value associated with it. The "lighting" tag is, again, just a narrative tool to help the player understand why this attack does 1.25 damage. That aside, you should design your battles around the classes you built.

I think you're overthinking all this, but I generally agree that there isn't a lot of depth with the elemental wheel. When you're in control of an entire party in a single player game (e.g., Pokemon), there's some thought of resource management to consider. When you're in control of a single character, it's boring. Having said that, it's not like they're pigeon holed into those mechanics. Say you wanted to allow players to equip elemental equipment for offensive/defensive purposes. There is room for depth and situational tactics there with minimal liability for balance problems.

I'm confident that they'll at least replace the elemental properties of the elemental magic spells with fewer flat properties to differentiate them (which they should have done anyway, elemental wheel or not).
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#64 Jun 02 2013 at 9:18 AM Rating: Good
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Don't forget the "strong against" stuff either. 25% of all of FFXI's notorious monsters are pretty much immune to earth and lightning based enfeebles, which means no slow, no stuns, etc. We fought one yesterday who was also completely deaf because none of my bard songs had any effect on him whatsoever. Dumb SE Smiley: bah
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#65 Jun 02 2013 at 12:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't understand how they couldn't just let opposing spells do a tiny bit more damage. Before ARR BLMs still only used thunder>thundara>thundaga(burst) combos for EVERYTHING and it got kind of boring playing it. Only thing fire was used for was for doing fire parties and that dungeon with the ants. Just wiping out elemental weaknesses/resistances all together makes me wonder what's the point of them having an element. It would just be for graphics pretty much. I mean I'll give it a try but having a certain element do a small fraction of extra damage wouldn't hurt the game that bad in my opinion.
#66 Jun 02 2013 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
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VolkerMateus wrote:
I don't understand how they couldn't just let opposing spells do a tiny bit more damage. Before ARR BLMs still only used thunder>thundara>thundaga(burst) combos for EVERYTHING and it got kind of boring playing it. Only thing fire was used for was for doing fire parties and that dungeon with the ants. Just wiping out elemental weaknesses/resistances all together makes me wonder what's the point of them having an element. It would just be for graphics pretty much. I mean I'll give it a try but having a certain element do a small fraction of extra damage wouldn't hurt the game that bad in my opinion.


I like what they are going for, with each element having a general effect and theme, like Fire is AOE, Ice is slow, etc.

I hope this mechanic would be expanded on, since it really is "thunder combo everything" as blm. I also agree that the wheel is a very FF thing, but it's really all speculation at this point. I mean, I have faith is the dev team, so I'm optimistic.
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#67 Jun 02 2013 at 3:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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I can see where they're coming from. Resistances tend to favor those with multiple jobs to min max each fight and they are harder to balance. Let's say a boss is weak to fire. Jobs without fire could be cobsidered gimp. Players woukd be prone to taking 6 blms a healer and a tank unless weakness to fire just means blms dps equals meleer dps. In that case why have ekemental weakness?

Learning each mobs'weaknesses has merits. But resistances to elements was sortof crappy superficial gameplay. With this, each mage on your team can specialize in a particular element effect.

That may end up being a net gain in tactics.
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#68 Jun 02 2013 at 5:12 PM Rating: Good
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This design choice still makes me feel incontinent... and slightly itchy in my left eye socket.
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#69 Jun 02 2013 at 6:30 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm reminded of the elemental situation in WoW pre-WotLK. While I was a small fry during that time, I recall tales of Elemental resistances and weaknesses. Tanks used to have to farm specific armor sets with tons of resist to a certain element so they could do their job effectively. I personally don't mind this notion, as gear aquisition was pretty much the only reward in that game. Now I'm not entirely sure if monsters had elemental weaknesses in WoW at one point or not, but I could see how it could be an issue in that game. With Priests only doing shadow/holy damage, Mages primarily speccing into either fire/ice/arcane, Shamans primarily doing Nature/Fire, and Druids doing Arcane/Nature I could see how many could be disadvantaged in many different fights in a single raid. However, I never really saw this as a problem in FFXI, as every job that was meant to do damage with spells had access to the whole elemental wheel, excluding light/dark. BLM, SMN, SCH, BLU, RDM, GEO, and even DRK and NIN. No one Job was really at a disadvantage in any encounter, as each one could pick a spell best suited for the mob if need be. The only jobs that were at a spell disadvantage were WHM and PLD, but they both have other primary roles to fill. Light magic did suck compared to other elements, but that was mostly due to design decisions with MPcost/damage and cooldowns. They could have just as easily tweaked the Banish spells to have a lower cooldown while still making them less efficient to cast than other elemental spells to prevent WHM DD.

Now I do admit that the whole CON > WHM and THAU > BLM thing confuses me greatly when it comes to which 1st tier gets what elements and if WHM loses theirs, but I don't see how this is going to be that big of an issue in FFXIV. BLM will still most likely have access to all six elements and Darkness, Summoner will most likely get the ability to summon something of every element at some point, and Scholar will most likely get the ability to set their books on fire or pee on them to cast water spells. They aren't coming out with enough jobs right now to really have mages be specialized in specific elements. That aside, job lore wise, I don't think they would have enough jobs to pigeon hole into specific elements. It might be a fun idea to have GEO only cast earth spells, but it would put a lot of people off if they didn't have access to snow/rain/wind/thunder/lava/etc. (wood?).

If this discussion is in some way meant to encompass the certain elemental damage that specific weapon types were capable of, I don't believe that it should. Yeah you might get lucky with a Red Lotus Blade on a Mandragora every now and again, but the elemental properties weren't a huge deal in most circumstances. I don't know how entwined certain jobs are with certain elements in FFXIV, but it would be just as easy to make it not be a game breaker if using thunder inclined polearms on Ramuh.

To me the whole thing seems like preemptive PVP balancing somehow. I truly hope I am wrong, as that whole ordeal in WoW meant constant nerfs, buffs, and complete reworks of classes every month or two. And I don't think that SE would have a PVE/PVP balancing team anywhere near as good as Blizzard's. It wouldn't be hard to give every caster access to every element. ****, most jobs already have that in each game (they even gave DRK low tier BLM spells in XI). If the whole situation revolves around WHM being able to solo, make their couple light spells not suck and give them a couple more to round them out.

And if the whole thing boils down to "Every other recent mmo has done it, so we should too" then congrats on removing something unique and awesome about your MMOs and your franchise in general. There better be some awesome reason to cast one spell over another otherwise you might as well just give everyone "Generic Mana Bolt A" and call it a day...And it better not be another Thunder > everything else because it costs more MP and you get it at a higher level... That was stupid even in FFXI.
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#70 Jun 02 2013 at 6:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yoshida played Rift. He probably did not like how endgame revolved around elemental sets. By the time I quit I had like 4 elemental tank sets. And 3 melee ekement sets. It was a distraction and pseudogameplay to have to build element sets.

Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 8:47pm by benjjjamin
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#71 Jun 02 2013 at 6:58 PM Rating: Good
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benjjjamin wrote:
Yoshida played Rift. He probably did not like how endgame revolved around elemental sets. By the time I quit I had like 4 elemental tank sets. And 3 melee ekement sets. It was a distraction and pseudogameplay to have to build element sets.

Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 8:47pm by benjjjamin


You have a point there and I never played Rift. I think in WoW you could just craft them which wouldn't have been too terrible, but having to have so many sets that would only be useful in one-two fights would be pretty annoying.
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#72 Jun 02 2013 at 7:38 PM Rating: Good
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DamienSScott wrote:
benjjjamin wrote:
Yoshida played Rift. He probably did not like how endgame revolved around elemental sets. By the time I quit I had like 4 elemental tank sets. And 3 melee ekement sets. It was a distraction and pseudogameplay to have to build element sets.

Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 8:47pm by benjjjamin


You have a point there and I never played Rift. I think in WoW you could just craft them which wouldn't have been too terrible, but having to have so many sets that would only be useful in one-two fights would be pretty annoying.

Yeah there was life, death, fire, water and storm sets that i can remember. You had to buy the sets with special currency gained from doing raid rifts and stuff like that. If you wanted to main tank any of the big bosses like greenscale or ankylios you really had to have the set to resist its element.
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#73 Jun 03 2013 at 2:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Reminds me of a story back in the early days of FFXI. We were having a tough time beating Shiva, so one of my friends who tagged along was determined to survive and bought a ton of ice resistance gear, as ludicrous an amount as he could put on. He spent the whole way there (on that dreadful walk to Fei'Yin) boasting how he was going to be the only one of us who'd live through Diamond Dust since he was uber-prepared. Only, when the fateful moment arrived and Shiva two-houred, he was (no word of a lie) the only one to die. Just completely one-shot for more health than he had, at that. I laughed so hard...

Anyway, moral of the story, elemental resistance really wasn't all that great in FFXI. Smiley: lol
#74 Jun 03 2013 at 4:24 AM Rating: Good
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Lol yeah in xi it only increased the chance of a partial resist....from about 2 percent all the way up to an astounding 5%. 19 times out of 20 you were still going to take full damage. In rift it was like 40% damage reduction and the devs put damage output that required it.

This way people can focus on their best gear sets more.
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#75 Jun 03 2013 at 7:19 AM Rating: Good
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Speaking of gear sets, I'm being reminded of how we won't be able to change equipment mid-battle. It was a pet peeve for me on WHM in XI while trying to heal someone and they blink out as soon as I try to target them. It removes the need to switch gear to accommodate elemental weaknesses, which there will be none anyway.
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#76 Jun 03 2013 at 7:26 AM Rating: Good
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I liked the gear swaps in XI, because it was pretty much necessary based on the way that gear was optimized. However, I think that was just an attempt to increase the amount of horizontal progression available by offering different gear sets through different content. I hope XIV is able to still mimic the horizontal gear progression, but do it without gear swaps since they aren't available. I'm having a hard time picturing how that will happen, anyone have any thoughts on it?
#77 Jun 03 2013 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
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There is way to do this already in the form of materia melding. I heard that triple melds were the most sought-after even though they were a pain to pull off. Other than that, I'm not too sure. I assumed that the AF sets and/or primal weapons were going to be the end-all-be-all pieces of gear while working to the Crystal Tower >> Labyrinth of Bahamut. I'm only seeing vertical progression from what Yoshi has said. I'm hoping that FATEs award a variety of gear that can at least compete with materia melded/top-end crafted gear.
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#78 Jun 03 2013 at 7:42 AM Rating: Good
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I really hope it's not just a vertical gear progression. I'm so sick of those games. "Oh sweet, I got this awesome armor set for doing endgame content! ...oh wait, it's now completely useless since they put out the next batch of endgame stuff. Yippee." I like gear that I can wear for a while and just upgrade the gear itself. I think it would be awesome if all the endgame gear would just be upgradeable, and the upgrades would also slightly alter the appearance of the gear (in a way that you could choose). For instance, you complete a questline with a party battle at the end, and it rewards you with a gear upgrade. You can choose one of a handful of "new looks" to add to your gear, or just take the stat boost and keep your gear looking the same. It just seems much more customizable and fun than trashing your old gear every time something new comes out.
#79 Jun 03 2013 at 7:48 AM Rating: Good
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We do know that AF/Primal gear will be your base level 50 gear. Melded gear is better than AF/Primal Gear. Crystal Tower gear is better than that, and Labyrinth of Bahamut is better than that.

I'm hoping the problems from FFXI's "Delve" fiasco won't carry over and it actually works as intended. I'm hoping the playerbase doesn't get pigeonholed into the same problem (at least from what I've been reading on their forum). "You NEED Bahamut weapons to do Labyrinth of Bahamut" Smiley: oyvey
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#80 Jun 03 2013 at 7:51 AM Rating: Good
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I'm hoping that the initial tiering that is evident in the game (Primal->Crystal Tower->Labyrinth of Bahamut) is just the vanilla way to introduce people to raiding. Conceptually there are always 3 tiers of MMO endgame. Small party, entry raiding, veteran raiding. This is even in purely vertical MMOs like Rift, where each new endgame raiding tier just shifts the former ones into one big catching-up-to-content phase or are skipped entirely.

Theoretically they can end vertical progression at Bahamut. They are already planning on creating relic weapon upgrade quests to make them the top weapons of the game come...winter to spring of next year or so as a guess. Like you all, then I hope it is purely horizontal progression for a good few years to forever.
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#81 Jun 03 2013 at 8:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
We do know that AF/Primal gear will be your base level 50 gear. Melded gear is better than AF/Primal Gear. Crystal Tower gear is better than that, and Labyrinth of Bahamut is better than that.

I'm hoping the problems from FFXI's "Delve" fiasco won't carry over and it actually works as intended. I'm hoping the playerbase doesn't get pigeonholed into the same problem (at least from what I've been reading on their forum). "You NEED Bahamut weapons to do Labyrinth of Bahamut" Smiley: oyvey


It's turning out that you just need to know the gimmick for each boss in Delve. Like one of them... once it does a specific TP move 7 times, becomes completely unresistant to non-elemental magic damage. 2-3 MNKs with Hundred Fists and Formless Strikes will completely wreck it. Another one has a horrible move that, since it's a "gaze" move, it can't use as long as you keep blind on it. Land a good Blind and just go through a standard bard rotation to tear it down in around 3-4 minutes. Failure to land Blind will result in your DD slowing down and eventually turning to stone. Yuck.

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#82 Jun 03 2013 at 9:15 AM Rating: Good
I wouldn't mind if each expansion had horizontal progression, but for the life of the game to have horizontal progression? I feel that would get stale after the first expansion or two, at least for my tastes. I love and adore FFXI and it worked for that game and that audience at that time, but I don't think Yoshi P's goal is to make FFXI-2. I like the idea of any gear you collect during an expansion to provide a form of progression. This to me would keep the gearing game fresh while still allowing your gear to matter for quite a while (FFXI and WoW expansions have each lasted approx 2+ yrs iirc). Skewing too far to one side of the spectrum or the other for this game wouldn't feel right. A good balance of the two would be more in line with what I think SE is trying to accomplish this time around. While I played WoW for quite a while and Rift for a short time, I dont like the straight vertical progression of each major patch essentially invalidating the last. Pure vertical progression makes anyone who isn't on the front end of progression feel like they're almost always playing catch up. Striking a good balance is as tough or as easy as SE is willing to make it. These are my thoughts at least.
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#83 Jun 03 2013 at 9:37 AM Rating: Good
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I think WotG actually did it right. Completing the expansion nets you the nice finish to the storyline, but also lets you get an earring that you can customize from a given set of stats. I got Refresh and MACC on my earring, and I wear it on every single mage job at least some of the time.

I think any new expansion in XIV ought to come with a single piece of gear that can be Materia melded to be a "best in slot" for your preferred job. Whether that's a new earring, a new necklace, new boots, etc.

(Also let you toss it and redo it later on if something in the game changes and it's no longer the "best in slot" like it was before.)

Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 11:38am by Catwho
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