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PVP Worlds...Follow

#27 May 31 2013 at 11:12 AM Rating: Decent
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BrokenFox wrote:
This game wasn't built with world PVP in mind so I doubt we'll ever see anything like that implemented, and that's fine with me, but PVP in some capacity is definitely needed. It's a key feature of a MMO.


Wrong! 1.0 was not, but ARR was :) Yoshi the director has said this countless times, they have had PVP in their mind, it just not gonna be on release....
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#28 May 31 2013 at 11:21 AM Rating: Excellent
There will be PvP in FFXIV, and plenty of it to suit the Final Fantasy fanbase.

There is a history of PvP in Final Fantasy games, but it's in the form of card games, blitzball, etc. There is no ganking in Final Fantasy.

People who want a hardcore PvP game should look elsewhere... the last thing Final Fantasy fans want is for developers to be distracted by a facet of gaming that has very little to do with Final Fantasy.
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#29 May 31 2013 at 11:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
No.

PvP in general doesn't really belong in a Final Fantasy game. But if he wants to ***** around with arena-style pvp, that's probably fine.

Open world pvp just doesn't fit at all.



Yet it fits in something like Everquest or Ultima Online?
#30 May 31 2013 at 11:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
BrokenFox wrote:
This game wasn't built with world PVP in mind so I doubt we'll ever see anything like that implemented, and that's fine with me, but PVP in some capacity is definitely needed. It's a key feature of a MMO.


Wrong! 1.0 was not, but ARR was :) Yoshi the director has said this countless times, they have had PVP in their mind, it just not gonna be on release....


I'm talking world pvp in the traditional 'I gank you while you're fighting a bear' type of pvp. It couldn't work in FFXIV anyway because there are no opposing factions. All pvp in this game will revolve around some sort of event/mini-game/arena, etc.
#31 May 31 2013 at 11:49 AM Rating: Good
Ostia wrote:
Nobody cares about blitzball, nor about chocobo racing, they are good little additions, but nothing groundbraking that would bring millions of people flooding into the game... Unlike PVP :)

PVP is not a mini game... There are entire games dedicated to it, a whole scene, and tournaments going world wide around it... To compare it to blitzball is... Well ignorant ?


I don't believe he was comparing a mini-game to PvP apples-to-apples. I think he was saying that rather than devote resources to something major like PvP, he would rather see a bunch of mini-games developed instead.

Regarding the idea of open-world PvP in ARR, I'm with most other people here in not wanting to see it. I'm fine with some sort of arena setup, but games with a lot of open-world PvP tend to lead towards a less mature audience overall in my experience. As an example, DCUO had a terrible community, even during the 1st year that it was P2P. World chat spammed with trash-talk, people leveling up solely to run around ganking people, etc. I found it to be a mess. Even the forums are different. Every other thread there was some sort of ******* contest, with the words noob, trash, crap, lame, loser, and pu**y getting more than their money's worth of use.

Here on the FF forums, whether it's XI or XIV, it's MUCH more civilized. Yes there are disagreement from time to time (see all the "delve is ruining the game" threads in XI), but there are actual in-depth discussions about mechanics, development, and even off-topic stuff. I come to games like FF to get away from the 14 year old mouth-breathers who are taking a break from trying to rank up in CoD. Who I seem to run into quite often in PvP-centric games.

I also detest the balancing act all developers inevitably fall into between PvP and PvE scenarios. Support classes complain that they are easy targets and can't do any damage in PvP, so the DD get nerfed. Then the DD don't do enough damage to keep up with PvE content, so one particular DD class gets buffed. Then all the other DD say eff it and lvl tanks/healers, then complain that support jobs buff the one special DD to God-mode and can't compete.

I understand why people who like PvP like it as much as they do. I think it's great for them and am glad they have a multitude of games to choose for such activities. I, personally, would like to have one major title that stays away from PvP that I can enjoy. If SE decides to make ARR more PvP heavy in the future, I will most likely quit the game. I won't throw a fit about it, I'll simply give all my gear away and /cancel account.
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#32 May 31 2013 at 12:08 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
There is a history of PvP in Final Fantasy games, but it's in the form of card games, blitzball, etc. There is no ganking in Final Fantasy.


Tetra Master tables when? Smiley: lol

(And before anyone says it, sod off Triple Triad scum. Smiley: tongue )
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#33 May 31 2013 at 12:31 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Nobody cares about blitzball, nor about chocobo racing, they are good little additions, but nothing groundbraking that would bring millions of people flooding into the game... Unlike PVP :)

PVP is not a mini game... There are entire games dedicated to it, a whole scene, and tournaments going world wide around it... To compare it to blitzball is... Well ignorant ?

Also blitzball is not a FF minigame, it was in one FF... Triple triad sure!



By "nobody cares" do you mean you or do you speak for many people on this forum and communities around the world?

I also don't think people will flock to a game just because it has PvP. If I was Yoshi, with my many years as a game designer and game market/trend expert, I wouldn't bank on that. Just saying, there are so many other resources and options that would KEEP players playing while slowing adding new ones after the initial release. Are you someone who won't buy the game if it doesn't have a sweet PvP? I mean, this just isn't that game. I don't think it will be and I really don't think it should be, if it does, Ill hang my bow and make people dance for gil in the street. Like IKickYoDog said.

As for me being "ignorant" thank you for misreading my post and directly attacking me as a person. Moving on...




#34 May 31 2013 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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It would only work if the 3 nations were at war. They don't seem to be, so I'm not sure how it would really fit outside of arena/battleground competitions. I've always played on PvP servers in other MMOs myself, but I think it would go against the grain of this one.

Also as Ikick was saying, the balancing would be a nightmare. Imagine how angry everyone would be if there was wPvP in FFXI? Rangers and Black Mages would completely dominate everyone. Select target, start casting Thunder V, boom. Then they'd have to nerf magic. Then all the BLM would cry. etc. etc.

Quote:
I also don't think people will flock to a game just because it has PvP.


This brings up a couple questions:
1. Would it bring in more people than it would alienate?
2. Would it ever even draw enough to have tournaments and things of that nature.

The answer to both is most likely, no. I'm super excited for this game, but it just doesn't have the sort of "twitch" combat system necessary for competitive PvP. They've made improvements over XI, but it's still nowhere near as fast or stun happy as competitive PvP MMOs. It does however, seem perfect for PvE.

Edited, May 31st 2013 2:48pm by Transmigration
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#35 May 31 2013 at 12:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Some background on my past games.. I played on pvp servers on wow , tera, swtor, rift and more. I LOVE pvp. But for this game I would hate open world pvp. And for people who say well there would be pvp servers and pve servers.. if you look at most MMO's the pvp server have fewer players in them. Also to have to balance game play around open world pvp would take up time for other things to be fixed or worked on.

If they add Battlegrounds I would be happy but its not needed. 5vs5 is good enough for me I loved wow arena.
#36 May 31 2013 at 1:29 PM Rating: Good
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Would be nice to see a zone like wintergrasp from WoW in FF14, where grand companies can have staged/training warfare, but World pvp.. No thanks, then SE would be forced to tweek classes all the time, just look at WoW; only certain specs are considered good/must have, waste of time and resources to try balance it all the time :P
#37 May 31 2013 at 2:29 PM Rating: Default
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WFOAssassin wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Nobody cares about blitzball, nor about chocobo racing, they are good little additions, but nothing groundbraking that would bring millions of people flooding into the game... Unlike PVP :)

PVP is not a mini game... There are entire games dedicated to it, a whole scene, and tournaments going world wide around it... To compare it to blitzball is... Well ignorant ?

Also blitzball is not a FF minigame, it was in one FF... Triple triad sure!



By "nobody cares" do you mean you or do you speak for many people on this forum and communities around the world?

I also don't think people will flock to a game just because it has PvP. If I was Yoshi, with my many years as a game designer and game market/trend expert, I wouldn't bank on that. Just saying, there are so many other resources and options that would KEEP players playing while slowing adding new ones after the initial release. Are you someone who won't buy the game if it doesn't have a sweet PvP? I mean, this just isn't that game. I don't think it will be and I really don't think it should be, if it does, Ill hang my bow and make people dance for gil in the street. Like IKickYoDog said.

As for me being "ignorant" thank you for misreading my post and directly attacking me as a person. Moving on...


Oh i am sorry, please do mention the games that have been successful because of Blitzball...... Or Triple Triad ? Oh none you say ? Well that seems like an important fact to leave out does it not ? PVP is a Vital! Vital element of a modern MMO! Chocobo racing is garbage, it was garbage when they first created it and it only sold 300K units.... Which sounds like a waste of resources from SE part Anyways!

Also i did not call you ignorant so do not even go there, i said that to compare blitzball to pvp was Ignorant. And it is, why waste resources into something that first off nobody cares about, and second will not bring consumers into your game in droves, this is an MMO, it needs subscriptions to survive, the PVP population in MMO is huge, why not bring some of them in ? I am sure pvpers outnumber blitzball fans by 50 to 1.

Also this notion that PVP does not fit into a Final Fantasy Game, because of immersion and realism... Let's be real... It's stupid to believe that in erozea, there are no thieves, no burglars, no kinapers, no assasins, no murderers, no traitors, no rivarly no nothing, the only way you can be killed is by either monsters or the imperial army ? REALLY ? Come on!
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#38 May 31 2013 at 2:34 PM Rating: Default
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IKickYoDog wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Nobody cares about blitzball, nor about chocobo racing, they are good little additions, but nothing groundbraking that would bring millions of people flooding into the game... Unlike PVP :)

PVP is not a mini game... There are entire games dedicated to it, a whole scene, and tournaments going world wide around it... To compare it to blitzball is... Well ignorant ?


I don't believe he was comparing a mini-game to PvP apples-to-apples. I think he was saying that rather than devote resources to something major like PvP, he would rather see a bunch of mini-games developed instead.

Regarding the idea of open-world PvP in ARR, I'm with most other people here in not wanting to see it. I'm fine with some sort of arena setup, but games with a lot of open-world PvP tend to lead towards a less mature audience overall in my experience. As an example, DCUO had a terrible community, even during the 1st year that it was P2P. World chat spammed with trash-talk, people leveling up solely to run around ganking people, etc. I found it to be a mess. Even the forums are different. Every other thread there was some sort of ******* contest, with the words noob, trash, crap, lame, loser, and pu**y getting more than their money's worth of use.

Here on the FF forums, whether it's XI or XIV, it's MUCH more civilized. Yes there are disagreement from time to time (see all the "delve is ruining the game" threads in XI), but there are actual in-depth discussions about mechanics, development, and even off-topic stuff. I come to games like FF to get away from the 14 year old mouth-breathers who are taking a break from trying to rank up in CoD. Who I seem to run into quite often in PvP-centric games.

I also detest the balancing act all developers inevitably fall into between PvP and PvE scenarios. Support classes complain that they are easy targets and can't do any damage in PvP, so the DD get nerfed. Then the DD don't do enough damage to keep up with PvE content, so one particular DD class gets buffed. Then all the other DD say eff it and lvl tanks/healers, then complain that support jobs buff the one special DD to God-mode and can't compete.

I understand why people who like PvP like it as much as they do. I think it's great for them and am glad they have a multitude of games to choose for such activities. I, personally, would like to have one major title that stays away from PvP that I can enjoy. If SE decides to make ARR more PvP heavy in the future, I will most likely quit the game. I won't throw a fit about it, I'll simply give all my gear away and /cancel account.


Yoshi P has already stated that balance wont be an issue, PVE and PVP abilities will not be the same, so balancing for PVE will not affect PVP balance.

Also this notion that XI and XIV communities are holier than the rest is false, they seem better because if you compared it with other communities that are 3-10 times it's size, it will obviously look like our community is better, in reality is not, we all get ******** and douches, drama and nonsense, no community is better than others.
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#39 May 31 2013 at 2:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
Also i did not call you ignorant so do not even go there, i said that to compare blitzball to pvp was Ignorant.


He wasn't comparing the two. He said time could be better spent on games like blitzball and chocobo racing/raising. And in terms of the Final Fantasy Universe, he's probably correct. I don't think that anyone's trying to argue that PvP isn't important in a lot of mmo's, or that it has millions of fans worldwide. If they were, they'd clearly be incorrect. But for a Final Fantasy mmo, PvP has always been on the backburner compared to PvE, and I think it's fair to say that most fans of the series like it that way. There are tons of games devoted solely to PvP, or have PvP as a big part of their gameplay. A Final Fantasy game just probably won't ever be one of them.

And no, I'm not saying that's necessarily a good or bad decision, just that's how it is. They'd alienate a huge chunk of their current fanbase by making PvP as important as PvE in the game. It's just that simple.
#40 May 31 2013 at 2:39 PM Rating: Excellent
I'm not anti-PVP, but why focus too much energy on something that's just not seriously a part of Final Fantasy?
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#41 May 31 2013 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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Since we are talking FF and PVP, just look at FF XI. It has a couple of types of PVP in it. They were pretty popular at first, then people stopped doing it all together.
The reasons why they stopped were because of how they were implemented, not because it was PVP. With that said, I think FF fans liked the controlled PVP, but would most likely not like open world PVP, as long as they are ok with the restrictions.
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#42 May 31 2013 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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In theory it's never a bad idea to provide more options to players. In practice they'd have to consider the return on investment by contrasting the developmental resources to player demand.

Honestly I doubt the demand is worth it, and moreover, I doubt they could do it well because of the way they've taken a PvE balancing approach. If they had been smart and balanced the classes for PvP first and then designed the PvE encounters around that, it could have been a great idea. At this point, it's unrealistic.

And also, is plain unlikely given the Japanese FF culture.
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#43 May 31 2013 at 2:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Because there are a lot of people that are into PVP. I don't like open world pvp i admit. I would agree though that if there was a way to implement it in the game (story wise) and make pvp servers SE should do it. Its a choice a lot of MMOs have because pvp is a big part of them now days. I don't know how many would join them and to be honest don't care since i don't like as i said open world pvp.

Putting that aside i love the arena pvp and yes i wouldn't mind a windergrasp like pvp as well.
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#44 May 31 2013 at 3:00 PM Rating: Good
Ostia wrote:
IKickYoDog wrote:
I said some stuff


Yoshi P has already stated that balance wont be an issue, PVE and PVP abilities will not be the same, so balancing for PVE will not affect PVP balance.

Also this notion that XI and XIV communities are holier than the rest is false, they seem better because if you compared it with other communities that are 3-10 times it's size, it will obviously look like our community is better, in reality is not, we all get @#%^s and douches, drama and nonsense, no community is better than others.


I was not trying to imply that FF has the holy grail of communities, as I pointed out about the XI forums. Those threads I mentioned about Delve have some pure vitriol in them.

As for balance, you may be right, but I don't remember that particular quote. I'll leave it to you to go find it on your own to prove your point.

I will also point out that you have a remarkable talent for putting words into other peoples' mouths that is only matched by your ability to take words out of your own. see: "FF coomunity is holier than thou" and "PvP vs Blitzball is ignorant."
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#45 May 31 2013 at 3:07 PM Rating: Decent
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I found it lame in woW that some *** could just run by and one shot me for fun. I wouldn't play a game like that period
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#46 May 31 2013 at 3:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Actually, I do remember him saying that the classes would be balanced differently for PvE than PvP, which is also a fair enough way to do it. At least it's probably the best retroactive adjustment they could make to include something like world PvP. In consideration of that, I think they should have included it. They won't have it by release and I doubt that it would be worth it to add after launch, though.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#47 May 31 2013 at 3:17 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
If they had been smart and balanced the classes for PvP first and then designed the PvE encounters around that, it could have been a great idea.


Therein lies the problem... I'd so much rather have them build the game solely upon PvE encounters, and then have instances/areas for PvP, but without PvP dictating any of the actual game. Massive PvP is just not part of the DNA of Final Fantasy. When I think of PvP games, I think of things like Guild Wars or WoW. When I think of Final Fantasy, I think of party play, teamwork and shared goals.

There is tremendous value to be had in Square Enix sticking with its roots. I can't think of another gaming franchise that's so well-know and revered for its emphasis on party play.
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#48 May 31 2013 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
lolgaxe wrote:
"It doesn't feel like Final Fantasy" must be code for "I don't have the faith to believe the writers can come up with a scenario that makes PVP interesting, nor the imagination to come up with it myself." The only things that make a Final Fantasy game "feel" like a Final Fantasy game are similarly named objects and the title. I'm not a fan of PVP either, but let's come up with some realistic arguments like catwho and huhwhat presented.
Ok, you want me to argue that this is a valid point?

Name me one FF title that you play as a villain with a storyline set of missions or has a moral choice system. The player's story has always been one where they are the heroes challenging the forces of evil, even if they did not see eye to eye. Unlike other games in this space, Final Fantasy has a bunch of hallmark characteristics, from the crystals to the job system to world elements like Chocobos. Asking them to shelve that tradition in favour of embracing a popular ideal is just selling out the franchise. That would like WoW being PvE only, since it's own backstory is about warring societies.

There's a difference between could and should. Could the writers come up with just cause for players to be at outright war? Yea, that's relatively easy. Should they come up with that? No, because that runs directly in opposition of the creed of the franchise. Look at FFXI. In the meetings with the nations, they are constantly sniping, and taking verbal swings at one another. But, when push comes to shove, they put aside their differences and realize that they need to work together to fight against the evils in the world.

Sure, their plan is to just make a random adventurer with shifting loyalties their chosen hero, but I never said they were all that bright...

So you might just come back and say to me, "Well Pawk, let the franchise evolve. It doesn't always have to be all about PvE!!!" Let me ask you something:

- Did Dead Space 3 benefit from going from a tense, horror thriller in 1 to becoming generic cover-based shooter?
- Did Assassin's Creed benefit from incorporating tower defense into its gameplay instead of sticking to assassinations?
- Did Mass Effect 3 benefit from taking away all form of true choice in its ending sequence, despite it being a hallmark of the series?

Answer: No, they didn't. They diluted the experience, left players feeling cheated, and in the end did nothing to really benefit the game as a whole, or breathe new life into the series. They felt like remnants from another game being shoehorned into this other experience. Like that one stealth mission in your favourite run-and-gun action game.

So when people say "It doesn't feel like Final Fantasy", they mean "This series has never been about PvP, or playing the villain within the cannon of the story, it's always about reconciliation, redemption, and overcoming adversity by coming together, not by fighting among ourselves."
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#49 May 31 2013 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
If they had been smart and balanced the classes for PvP first and then designed the PvE encounters around that, it could have been a great idea.


Therein lies the problem... I'd so much rather have them build the game solely upon PvE encounters, and then have instances/areas for PvP, but without PvP dictating any of the actual game. Massive PvP is just not part of the DNA of Final Fantasy. When I think of PvP games, I think of things like Guild Wars or WoW. When I think of Final Fantasy, I think of party play, teamwork and shared goals.

There is tremendous value to be had in Square Enix sticking with its roots. I can't think of another gaming franchise that's so well-know and revered for its emphasis on party play.


Actually it's just a bad design practice. In any multiplayer game you should always balance symmetrical elements like classes against one another to ensure that they are in fact symmetrically balanced before you create asymmetric devices like monster encounters. Failing to do so severely restricts your flexibility in designing PvE encounters and lends itself to tons of balance problems down the line. (Such as certain classes being almost universally desirable while others having very little demand.)
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#50 May 31 2013 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
If they had been smart and balanced the classes for PvP first and then designed the PvE encounters around that, it could have been a great idea.


Therein lies the problem... I'd so much rather have them build the game solely upon PvE encounters, and then have instances/areas for PvP, but without PvP dictating any of the actual game. Massive PvP is just not part of the DNA of Final Fantasy. When I think of PvP games, I think of things like Guild Wars or WoW. When I think of Final Fantasy, I think of party play, teamwork and shared goals.

There is tremendous value to be had in Square Enix sticking with its roots. I can't think of another gaming franchise that's so well-know and revered for its emphasis on party play.


Actually it's just a bad design practice. In any multiplayer game you should always balance symmetrical elements like classes against one another to ensure that they are in fact symmetrically balanced before you create asymmetric devices like monster encounters. Failing to do so severely restricts your flexibility in designing PvE encounters and lends itself to tons of balance problems down the line. (Such as certain classes being almost universally desirable while others having very little demand.)


No, it's not just bad design practice always. Classes absolutely do not have to be balanced perfectly, mainly because there are distinct roles for each class in FF games. A whm SHOULD lose almost religiously to a damage dealer in most 1 on 1 encounters, because that's not the role of a whm. It's role in Final Fantasy games is to play backline healer and buffer. Finding the niche for each class is far more important imo than making them perfectly balanced against all other classes. I don't want my whms to have good DD capabilities just so that they are balanced for PvP. I don't want my blms to have good defensive ability just so that they don't get 1 or 2 shotted by a good melee.

In some games, where PvP is the focus, you're absolutely right that balancing classes against one another is crucial, but for a game like FFXI or FFXIV or any game where PvE is the clear main focus, class balance against each other is a moot point and is actually counter-intuitive. Balance the classes for PvE content. If you want PvP, make the abilities separate and balance them that way like it seems will be the case for XIV.
#51 May 31 2013 at 3:51 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
No, it's not just bad design practice always. Classes absolutely do not have to be balanced perfectly, mainly because there are distinct roles for each class in FF games. A whm SHOULD lose almost religiously to a damage dealer in most 1 on 1 encounters, because that's not the role of a whm.


Couldn't have said it better myself.
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