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PVP Worlds...Follow

#202 Jun 02 2013 at 7:32 PM Rating: Default
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I have read some of the most idiotic things in this giant mess of a thread. First of all, MMO gaming has been ruined by the desire to PvP. WoW (vanilla) was a GREAT game before the game became arena/pvp centered and blizzard spends all their time balancing classes for PvP which destroys PvE gameplay. Don't argue with me on this, because it's true. Everything was melted down to a color by number system with raiding/questing/leveling. It's awful. Guess what, it's still not balanced! Anyway, you can't take a game like this and toss in PvP just because you want to flash your epeen. It's just stupid. Game design has strayed so far away from pleasing the gamers who want a great PvE experience, MMO's have been alienated with garbage. My younger days are all but an afterthought of gaming fun! If you want to go bash other players in the face? Go play WoW and gtfo of this game. For the love of god, go away!! There has to be something left for us old adventurous types. I'm tired of the player versus player scene personally. It's a good reason I've stayed away from the current crop of MMO's and haven't touched WoW since the beginning of WoTLK.
#203 Jun 02 2013 at 7:35 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:


Something... I assure you it was good.


Agreed 100%. I also think 3/4 of the issue in this conversation is that people are switching back seamlessly between PVP and PVE and no one actually knows what the other person is trying to say.




Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 9:57pm by Parathyroid
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#204 Jun 02 2013 at 7:42 PM Rating: Decent
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I have a request... if you are quoting someone, can you just use their quote instead of the enitre giant quote tree? The posts get crazy long for a simple two line answer.
#205 Jun 02 2013 at 7:54 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:

The majority of players are unhappy with class balancing, so listening to a few people who think a method doesn't work (when I know it does), but offer no new solutions, doesn't seem the least bit prudent to me.


Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 5:26pm by Kachi


Who the **** are these majority of people? I assure you they aren't MMO players... Everyone I know (anecdotal evidence alert) loves the balance of the MMOs they play. As someone said before, if you wanted perfectly balanced classes go play a fps.

So I suppose it becomes a matter of philosophy. Do you build an MM fricking O for MMO players, or do you build it for FPS players (let us assume I'm referring to RPGs specifically.)

Since you love analogies so much, I'll provide one of my own. If you decide to build an MMO for someone other than MMO players, based on their "unhappiness" (I'm playing the worlds smallest violin for them right now, it's a sad sad song Smiley: glare that's like building a Ferrari with four doors and child safety locks... why? Because the Prius owners wanted something that suited their needs better.

Anywho... Ohhh all-knowing-all-powerful-one I await your response!
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#206 Jun 02 2013 at 8:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, you're not getting one.

BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
So at this point, I'm happy to answer questions, talk about design and balance, etc... I'm done with the arguments. If you have an argument and it makes you feel better to get it all out here on the intranets, go 'head.


Smiley: lol Keep sticking those fingers in your ears. Wouldn't want you to accidentally hear someones point of view that doesn't coincide with your own.


You honestly don't know the difference between disagreeing in conversation and arguing with someone, do you? I'm happy to do the former, as I've proved a thousand times on this forum. When you can do the same, we'll talk about whatever you want.

I am listening, so by all means, keep going. But I'm not responding.

Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 7:16pm by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#207 Jun 02 2013 at 8:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Pironin85 wrote:
I have read some of the most idiotic things in this giant mess of a thread. First of all, MMO gaming has been ruined by the desire to PvP. WoW (vanilla) was a GREAT game before the game became arena/pvp centered and blizzard spends all their time balancing classes for PvP which destroys PvE gameplay. Don't argue with me on this, because it's true. Everything was melted down to a color by number system with raiding/questing/leveling. It's awful. Guess what, it's still not balanced! Anyway, you can't take a game like this and toss in PvP just because you want to flash your epeen. It's just stupid. Game design has strayed so far away from pleasing the gamers who want a great PvE experience, MMO's have been alienated with garbage. My younger days are all but an afterthought of gaming fun! If you want to go bash other players in the face? Go play WoW and gtfo of this game. For the love of god, go away!! There has to be something left for us old adventurous types. I'm tired of the player versus player scene personally. It's a good reason I've stayed away from the current crop of MMO's and haven't touched WoW since the beginning of WoTLK.


Well it seems not only do i disagree with you, but Yoshida does as well Smiley: lol

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#208 Jun 02 2013 at 8:29 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
I am listening, so by all means, keep going. But I'm not responding.


You kinda just did...

However, I'm just going to drop it, because regardless of how explicitly I explain my counter-argument, you just gloss over it by claiming I don't understand. It's extremely common practice for people who either don't know how to debate a topic, or those too stubborn to see anything from another point of view. For example, several times in this very thread I've pointed out that while I don't agree with your ideas, I can't say they are completely false without seeing them in action. I even said it's possible that you could sway my opinion to your side were you to show me proof in a game. You, however, refuse to accept any other view from yours or acknowledge that anyone from the other side could possibly be correct by just claiming that no one "gets" what you are saying. It's incredibly shallow, and also pretty demeaning to those involved.
#209 Jun 02 2013 at 8:31 PM Rating: Good
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Then I guess neither of us think much of the other's capacity for discourse. Simple solution then, right?
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#210 Jun 02 2013 at 8:34 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Then I guess neither of us think much of the other's capacity for discourse. Simple solution then, right?


Absolutely, you go your way, I'll go mine. No harm, no foul. Smiley: nod
#211 Jun 02 2013 at 9:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
Dizmo wrote:
If I wanted to play a game with balanced PVP classes, I would play an FPS or a fighting game. MMOs are meant to model somewhat realistic worlds right? Realistic conflict is rarely balanced and the result is typically the side that came to the fight with the most information and cunning. If you cut that out, the winner is by and large the side with the most forces, leading to very shallow gameplay.

People who are annoyed that their support class isn't good at lone combat should switch to a class that is. If there is only trivial differentiation between classes what is the point of even having them? Vanity?


In a somewhat realistic world, a mage would not become an instant kill for a melee warrior, if i where a warlord, and i had an army, in which there was a magical unit, i would train them in hand to hand combat, what is the point of having a magical unit, that becomes useless if the line is broken and a few soldiers get to them, and they just become dead meat ?


I'm sorry, I don't understand the problem. You are just describing the concept of a support class.

Quote:
Where do we draw the line in this fake realism, could 5 warriors kill 500 mages, because well mages do 0 damage, so GG!?

What?

Quote:
I mean if we are supposed to have a semi realistic world, then anybody can kill anybody, in real war/battles, nobody is inmune to an arrow, or a sword, or a spell(Well theorically) you can be the greatest warrior to have walked the earth, one mistake in battle, and you are dead. That is realism.


Indeed.
#212 Jun 02 2013 at 10:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Someone crap in your cornflakes Kachi? You're coming across incredibly arrogant and annoying as ****. Makes me glad I skip most of your posts that are more than a few sentences long, but I'm getting arrogance even from what little I do read.
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#213 Jun 02 2013 at 10:25 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Someone crap in your cornflakes Kachi? You're coming across incredibly arrogant and annoying as ****. Makes me glad I skip most of your posts that are more than a few sentences long, but I'm getting arrogance even from what little I do read.


You just don't understand his genius. It must hurt.
#214 Jun 02 2013 at 10:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Well, you're not getting one.

BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
So at this point, I'm happy to answer questions, talk about design and balance, etc... I'm done with the arguments. If you have an argument and it makes you feel better to get it all out here on the intranets, go 'head.


Smiley: lol Keep sticking those fingers in your ears. Wouldn't want you to accidentally hear someones point of view that doesn't coincide with your own.


You honestly don't know the difference between disagreeing in conversation and arguing with someone, do you? I'm happy to do the former, as I've proved a thousand times on this forum. When you can do the same, we'll talk about whatever you want.

I am listening, so by all means, keep going. But I'm not responding.

Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 7:16pm by Kachi


Kachi you smell like ego!
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#215 Jun 03 2013 at 1:54 AM Rating: Good
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My god Smiley: eek so many posts!!

Well ill be that guy and get this thing back on track!...YEA who is with me?....no one? Well whatever..

Yea so some people loved the PVP worlds in wow (not me) because as i heard them say when you are in higher levels it adds some "realism" since 2 different factions keep fighting over and over again. Of course open world pvp has many other problems that we all know but yea it does seem nice when you get 500 people to storm the opposing factions cities (FOR THE HORDEEEEE... <3 I loved that one) even though that one is also in pve realms but anyway.

For me i liked the battlegrounds..they were like minigames that i enjoyed as ****. That's how i like my pvp i do not want to get a 12 year old with uber awesome PVP skills to keep killing me over and over again and not let me finish the freekin quest when i went to play my favorite MMO after a hard day at work.

Welp thats my take.

Oh one last thing i agreed with Ostia in some of the things he said but i couldn't disagree more when you said

Quote:
A developer should have a vision of what his game should be, and sure he should listen to his fanbase in some aspects, but he should not divert from the vision of the game he has, because then the game will suffer for it, because he might listen to you in one or two things, but he will still continue to move forward into that vision he has.


While it is true that he must maintain a vision of what game he wants to put out there. If you do not listen to your fans then you lost the game go play it yourself and the rest of the dev team alone.

True fact Eve online was going in a direction that the gamers didn't like. CCP was trying to introduce new things in the game (walking in stations micro transactions for outfits etc) and they had the stack up attitude saying that "we are doing it deal with it". The result? A dramatic drop in subs and also a huuuuge portion of the players (and i mean in thousands) where storming the head solar system of the game and were shooting a memorial there along with normal player kills. That caused massive lags from all those thousands of people in one place shooting everything (i believe even one of the last super carriers in high security systems undocked for the heck of it as he said http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGEhi8QZqhM). CCP even had to go out and tell the players to avoid that solar system. In the end CCP had to apologize to the players and stop what they were doing and give the players what they really wanted.

The result? after a year CCP manage to break the 400k and 500k i believe barrier of subs because people started coming back.

What i am trying to say is yea devs need to have a basic idea of what they are doing and where they want their game to go but they will lose the fight if they do not deliver what the players want.



Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 4:52am by Teravibe
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#216 Jun 03 2013 at 2:14 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Someone crap in your cornflakes Kachi? You're coming across incredibly arrogant and annoying as ****. Makes me glad I skip most of your posts that are more than a few sentences long, but I'm getting arrogance even from what little I do read.


Oh, okay. It's just me then. Smiley: rolleyes

I come in here trying to discuss game design, confident in the point that I'm making. Other people argue my point without even understanding it, and then increasingly interpret my confidence as arrogance. I try to disengage from the debate and move towards the more civil discourse that I know and love.

When people show me that they can't maintain a civil conversation about video games, I lose respect for them, and become dismissive of what they have to say. If I carry an air of superiority, it's because of that, and nothing to do with the substance of the conversation. The fact is, there was very little substance to this conversation despite the constant egging me on to participate in it.

I may not reek of humility here, but don't single me out like I'm the only one.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#217 Jun 03 2013 at 2:51 AM Rating: Good
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Just chiming in... havent posted in awhile. Hi all btw!

Back on like page 2 or 3 of this thread (which im too tired and lazy to go back and find), someone mentioned FFXI not having a strong base of PVP players for things like ballista or diorama. I haven't played FFXI since back when the level cap was 75 and people were smashing colibri in merit parties. Back in those days, weren't there 2 "unofficial" PVP servers? After the world transfer thing came to light, people interested in PVP would migrate to those servers for the sole purpose of PVP. One was Lakshmi server, and the other... not really sure. I wanna say Pandemonium?

Anywho, point is PVP did indeed exist in FFXI, and I know (at least back in the old days) that some people who had already finished the main storyline missions and got their 75 jobs and decent-ish gear weren't interested in dynamis runs or sea farming anymore. It was ballista and diorama all day, every day... just not on every server hehe. I still recall the good ol' times when people who couldn't enter an official ballista match would just stand by the herald and literally watched the battles from the sidelines.

Ahh man I'm struggling to remember the name of those 3 official ballista zones. Tahrongi Canyon, Pashow Marshlands i think and uhh... some other place (good lord its been so long). Anywho, the ballista heralds in those 3 zones were never lonely. I mean never. Ever. And about 70% of the time, the matches would be completely full. Every single day. All day long. It was a blaaaaaaaaaaast! Ahh the memories... :D

K bye. :)
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#218 Jun 03 2013 at 4:54 AM Rating: Good
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I will say that PvP sells mmo subs to some players. However, I feel these plsyers are ultimately bad investments, and focussing on them will inevitably fail you, all the while taking away from PvE developnent opportunity, and adding balancing headaches.

Pvp should be done in other genres in my opinion. Sports. War. Fighting. Rts. Classic strategy.

Stats and levels degrade the competition. These games take enough dev resources as it is. No need to put out a crappy oblifatory pvp sector just to pick up some players who inevitably leave after they make a mess of your game.
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#219 Jun 03 2013 at 6:30 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Wint wrote:
Someone crap in your cornflakes Kachi? You're coming across incredibly arrogant and annoying as ****. Makes me glad I skip most of your posts that are more than a few sentences long, but I'm getting arrogance even from what little I do read.


Oh, okay. It's just me then. Smiley: rolleyes

I come in here trying to discuss game design, confident in the point that I'm making. Other people argue my point without even understanding it, and then increasingly interpret my confidence as arrogance. I try to disengage from the debate and move towards the more civil discourse that I know and love.

When people show me that they can't maintain a civil conversation about video games, I lose respect for them, and become dismissive of what they have to say. If I carry an air of superiority, it's because of that, and nothing to do with the substance of the conversation. The fact is, there was very little substance to this conversation despite the constant egging me on to participate in it.

I may not reek of humility here, but don't single me out like I'm the only one.


You want to know why people are calling you arrogant?

Kachi wrote:
Other people argue my point without even understanding it


You think for some reason people are too stupid, or don't have enough experience, or whatever it is, to understand your point. That is why people think you're being arrogant. I understand your point precisely. You feel that if you are able to balance classes for PvP in a 1 on 1 setting at the start, that it will allow developers to make engaging content for both PvP and PvE that is easy to incorporate and allows for all classes to be utilized in a relatively even manner.

It's not a hard point to understand, it's very cut and dry. There have been several people in this thread who have even paraphrased your point, to which you have agreed that they nailed it. We've then offered up reasons why we feel that it probably won't work out that way, to which you just immediately dismiss by saying "we don't understand". It's a cop out. Rather than actually attempt to defend your position, you revert back to this "you don't get it" mentality at every turn, and then claim that people aren't being civil.

Was that just a cover to say I'm not being civil? If so, I'll again point you to the fact that YOU were the one who called me a jackass before I even mentioned your arrogance, other than me pointing out that you lose the argument when you can't separate your opinions from facts and are somehow superior to others in terms of understanding. That's pretty much the very definition of arrogance.

Now then, I'd say that's a pretty civil post... whether or not you interpret it that way is another matter, but I'd like to refer you to the quote in your own signature, as actually I feel it's you who has been wrongly confusing inference and implication.
#220 Jun 03 2013 at 6:33 AM Rating: Good
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I didn't call you a jackass, though I can see how you took it that way.

But civil or no, you're still making an awfully trifling video game discussion a rather more personal thing than it ought to be, which is why I won't discuss it with you. That's all, and no other reason.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#221 Jun 03 2013 at 6:37 AM Rating: Decent
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benjjjamin wrote:
I will say that PvP sells mmo subs to some players. However, I feel these plsyers are ultimately bad investments, and focussing on them will inevitably fail you, all the while taking away from PvE developnent opportunity, and adding balancing headaches.

Pvp should be done in other genres in my opinion. Sports. War. Fighting. Rts. Classic strategy.

Stats and levels degrade the competition. These games take enough dev resources as it is. No need to put out a crappy oblifatory pvp sector just to pick up some players who inevitably leave after they make a mess of your game.

All MMOs must be PVE?
#222 Jun 03 2013 at 6:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
I didn't call you a jackass, though I can see how you took it that way.


Kachi wrote:
(See how that really doesn't add anything to my argument? It just comes across as being an argumentative jackass, whether I'm right or not.)


Putting the words "comes across as" doesn't negate you calling me an argumentative jackass. Please don't make this into a semantics debate.

Kachi wrote:
But civil or no, you're still making an awfully trifling video game discussion a rather more personal thing than it ought to be, which is why I won't discuss it with you. That's all, and no other reason.


How did I make it personal exactly? By calling you arrogant? You are being arrogant. Arrogance is an attitude of superiority or self-importance. You claiming that others can't comprehend or understand your point is arrogance, especially when it's been laid out for you clear as day. Everything I've posted after that was in response to you making some demeaning or belittling comment about myself or the rest of the community. I really don't care if you want to discuss it with me or not anymore, because it's abundantly clear you will just ignore anything you don't like by claiming I don't get it, when I think it's pretty clear I do. That's not even an argument or debate. It's acting like a child when you don't get your way. (oh sorry, that's probably a personal attack in your eyes)

Anyways, I'm done here. Talking to brick walls gets old.
#223 Jun 03 2013 at 7:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Dizmo wrote:
All MMOs must be PVE?


No, but I wish more never even bothered with PVP at all. Attempts to please everyone usually result in pleasing no one. That is my experience with PVP in MMOs. I think PVP contributed greatly to Rift's decay, and I consider it one of the reasons FFXI has lasted as long as it has. With PVP comes a torrent of complaints and balancing issues that, again in my opinion, degrades the morale and culture of MMOs. I think PVP mmo players should be given the opportunity to subscribe to PVP-focussed MMO games. However, this has been tried a few times, and these MMOs have not done well. In fairness, they were not good games. In retro-fairness, I don't think any MMO that focusses on PVP *can* be a good game. Again, there is inherent conflict in RPG and PVP formats that do not go together. There are no other competitive arenas where competitors are given unequal equipment. Practice and skill are what makes competitions competitions. RPG components, again, conflict with what makes PVP inherently good.

If PVP mmos continue to do poorly, PVP should be dropped from MMOs altogether and, again, left to better genres for it.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 9:23am by benjjjamin
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#224 Jun 03 2013 at 8:52 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't see why PVP and RPG cannot go together, it seems kinda lame and unreal that in a world, nobody would have a problem with you at all, that only monsters are out to get you, and not even, because one of the major differences in an RPG and a MMO is that in an RPG, monsters attack you, every steep of the way, and in a MMO you hunt and attack the monsters, they are just out there chilling in the grass, and here we come to hunt them down for exp...
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#225 Jun 03 2013 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
They just need to hurry up and make Persona Arena / Mortal Kombat Online / Street Fighter Online and call it a day Smiley: laugh
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#226 Jun 03 2013 at 9:09 AM Rating: Good
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Dizmo wrote:
All MMOs must be PVE?


Not at all, but there are quite a few MMOs that are pvp-centric. Isn't it ok to have a few that exclude pvp entirely to focus on pve content?

Final Fantasy seems like the perfect canvas for something like that.
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#227 Jun 03 2013 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
I come in here trying to discuss game design, confident in the point that I'm making. Other people argue my point without even understanding it, and then increasingly interpret my confidence as arrogance. I try to disengage from the debate and move towards the more civil discourse that I know and love.


This is HILARIOUS! It's actually comical because I know you believe this.

Kachi wrote:
When people show me that they can't maintain a civil conversation about video games, I lose respect for them, and become dismissive of what they have to say.


So did you lose respect for yourself?

kachi wrote:
I may not reek of humility here, but don't single me out like I'm the only one.


No you reek of ego, remember?

Now let us show who is the one to actually start this argument.



Here is what us mean and nasty people said to you...

Thayos wrote:
Really, it all boils down to this.

Most people here (possibly everyone except for Kachi) want PvE to be built open clearly defined roles in a party.

Kachi says it's better for PvE to be built upon the principles of PvP, in which any player should have a 50 percent chance of beating any other player (skill/gear ratings/etc being equal), which means jobs have to be balanced so everyone can heal/dd/tank/etc.

There is no "correct" answer to this issue... there is only what we prefer.


Parathyroid wrote:
Dude I like you, and I think you are very intelligent so I don't want to get on your or anyone's bad side here...

But I don't think anyone's getting hung up on the 1v1 idea... I feel like everyone just thinks the type of gameplay you've described is entirely unappealing. It's pretty much as simple as that.

With that said, I think your ideas would be loved by other types of gamers, but it's certainly not going to fly with a bunch of FF fans.


Which angered you soooo much, you responded with:

Kachi wrote:
I feel like I'm trying to explain evolution to people who never took biology.



So tell me Kachipoo, who is the one who took a turn down insult lane, and turned this conversation from being a civil one into something else?



Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 12:11pm by Parathyroid
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#228 Jun 03 2013 at 10:32 AM Rating: Decent
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I have seen 50 people use far more insulting words than that... And he is right, it is like explaining evolution to somebody that never took biology.... Technically is explaining current MMO mechanics, to people that only played XI... Which is most of the problem Smiley: lol

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#229 Jun 03 2013 at 10:32 AM Rating: Decent
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iontheable wrote:
Already guys, so Yoshi announced that while he is very interested in a incorporating a ton of PVP into FFXIV2.0 he does not like the idea of Open World PVP..

I have to say, as a hardcore PVP'er - I highly disagree with this. I would love for the options of PVP realms and PVE realms. Those that didn't want the ability to gank in open world or to be ganked would be able to roll on PVE servers.

Anyone else with me on this?


Ok I'm super late to this topic....

While I enjoyed open world pvp in SWTOR and WoW, I agree that it doesn't fit in FF. I mean, there aren't any factions, and it's extremely limiting in the playerbase, in that usually you are separated from 50% of the playerbase.

But, they really could implement it like Ballista, except you know, make it so the players actually use it. Where the factions are engaging in skirmishes to strengthen themselves to face the threat of the empire, or something.

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#230 Jun 03 2013 at 10:34 AM Rating: Excellent
Kachi wrote:
I feel like I'm trying to explain evolution to people who never took biology.


Kind of reminds me of the beginning of "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade," when young Indiana stumbles out of the cave, realizes he's alone and on the run, and blurts out: "Everybody's lost but me."
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#231 Jun 03 2013 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
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I just read the entire thread and I think I can sum it up:

When we are arguing the PVP value of whm, all it tells me is that we really need more NDA lifted so we have something else to talk about.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 1:15pm by Louiscool
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#232 Jun 03 2013 at 11:11 AM Rating: Default
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Ostia wrote:
I have seen 50 people use far more insulting words than that... And he is right, it is like explaining evolution to somebody that never took biology.... Technically is explaining current MMO mechanics, to people that only played XI... Which is most of the problem Smiley: lol


I've played dozens of mmo's, from p2p, f2p, pve focused, pvp focused, you name it. So your logic is completely wrong there. Not to mention, considering he has zero experience designing mmo's specifically (unless it's something he just neglected to mention before when specifically asked about his design backgroun), he has no more knowledge of the "correct" way to balance them over anyone else. In fact, when I was planning to design my own mmo I did an entire semester's worth of research on the gameplay and design structures for mmo's for an independent study. So no, you are 100% wrong in your logic of this post.
#233 Jun 03 2013 at 11:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
I have seen 50 people use far more insulting words than that... And he is right, it is like explaining evolution to somebody that never took biology.... Technically is explaining current MMO mechanics, to people that only played XI... Which is most of the problem Smiley: lol



Ostia, what does it matter how disparaging the comments are? It was obviously used to demean he intelligence of everyone in disagreement... which is fine, it's an internet forum it happens all the time.

The point is, don't sit here on your ivory tower telling us you've lost respect for those who can't have a civil conversation when in fact you are the one is showing absolutely no respect to the individuals in the conversation. It is hypocritical as best.
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#234 Jun 03 2013 at 11:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Parathyroid wrote:
It is hypocritical as best.
Says the person whose previous post to Kachi was ridiculously condescending.
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#235 Jun 03 2013 at 11:45 AM Rating: Default
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BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I have seen 50 people use far more insulting words than that... And he is right, it is like explaining evolution to somebody that never took biology.... Technically is explaining current MMO mechanics, to people that only played XI... Which is most of the problem Smiley: lol


I've played dozens of mmo's, from p2p, f2p, pve focused, pvp focused, you name it. So your logic is completely wrong there. Not to mention, considering he has zero experience designing mmo's specifically (unless it's something he just neglected to mention before when specifically asked about his design backgroun), he has no more knowledge of the "correct" way to balance them over anyone else. In fact, when I was planning to design my own mmo I did an entire semester's worth of research on the gameplay and design structures for mmo's for an independent study. So no, you are 100% wrong in your logic of this post.


I am pretty sure you where not the only one engaged in argument with Kachi... But if you felt my comment was towards you specifically... Meh! Not Really!

Also if you have played all those types of games, then how come his argument flew by you ? Even if you pay little to no attention to PVP in a game, just by reading the patch updates you can see, how nerfing/buffing classes works, specially when you spent so much time doing your own research, his argument should have been clear to you, instead you spend half the time switching between PVP/PVE and complaining on who won or lost Smiley: lol

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#236 Jun 03 2013 at 11:50 AM Rating: Good
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I understood his argument from the first time he explained it. Did you? Based on everything you've posted in this thread, I'm guessing not.
#237 Jun 03 2013 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
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Parathyroid wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I have seen 50 people use far more insulting words than that... And he is right, it is like explaining evolution to somebody that never took biology.... Technically is explaining current MMO mechanics, to people that only played XI... Which is most of the problem Smiley: lol



Ostia, what does it matter how disparaging the comments are? It was obviously used to demean he intelligence of everyone in disagreement... which is fine, it's an internet forum it happens all the time.

The point is, don't sit here on your ivory tower telling us you've lost respect for those who can't have a civil conversation when in fact you are the one is showing absolutely no respect to the individuals in the conversation. It is hypocritical as best.


People here demean the intelligence of every other poster they dont agree with every day, you people just like cherry picking when you feel entitled to feel offended and againt's who.
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#238 Jun 03 2013 at 12:01 PM Rating: Default
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BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Lack of available high value units (e.g. healers, tanks) is a widely accepted problem in most MMOs, not just my opinion.

When you have those high value units in the game, encounter balance must be tuned higher to preserve the challenge of the game. That means that parties of low value units can't clear the content. That's what results in people sitting around with their thumbs up their asses for a high value unit (like a WHM) to appear so that they can experience content.


Ah I see now. To you, EVERY game is just poorly designed. Smiley: lol Sorry to break it you, but every single MMO I've ever played has classes that are just more important or higher value than others. If they were all evenly balanced, it would be the most boring game in existence, because there would be absolutely no point in playing other classes. You can't get a tactical advantage on anyone, because everyone has the same inherent optimum ability. Sorry, that's just ridiculous.

The way a game SHOULD work is that certain classes have distinct advantages over certain other classes based on their inherent abilities, but those other classes outshine them in other ways and have advantages over other classes. Basically the rock paper scissors idea. Every mmo I've played has this.


Yes clearly you understood everything he said huh ? Smiley: lol
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#239 Jun 03 2013 at 12:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
Parathyroid wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I have seen 50 people use far more insulting words than that... And he is right, it is like explaining evolution to somebody that never took biology.... Technically is explaining current MMO mechanics, to people that only played XI... Which is most of the problem Smiley: lol



Ostia, what does it matter how disparaging the comments are? It was obviously used to demean he intelligence of everyone in disagreement... which is fine, it's an internet forum it happens all the time.

The point is, don't sit here on your ivory tower telling us you've lost respect for those who can't have a civil conversation when in fact you are the one is showing absolutely no respect to the individuals in the conversation. It is hypocritical as best.


People here demean the intelligence of every other poster they dont agree with every day, you people just like cherry picking when you feel entitled to feel offended and againt's who.


No. Kachi said he loses respect for those who can't have a civil conversation... Not one person made a demeaning remark until he did. Which is entirely hypocritical... it's pretty cut and dry.

Did you even read what I wrote? I said I don't care if he insults me... It becomes hilarious when you talk sh*t about people for doing what you JUST did.


lolgaxe wrote:
Says the person whose previous post to Kachi was ridiculously condescending.


I'm not the one saying "I lose respect for those who can't have a civil conversation." About 2 hours after I made the first insult in the conversation.

He deserves to be talked down to, it's how he treats everyone else, and I think you deserve what you give.

Ostia wrote:
I have seen 50 people use far more insulting words than that... And he is right, it is like explaining evolution to somebody that never took biology.... Technically is explaining current MMO mechanics, to people that only played XI... Which is most of the problem


Well hold on now, I thought the whole point is that MMOs are screwed up in general, and us as fans could never POSSIBLY understand how the mechanics should work...

If that's true, then why even engage in the conversation? Is it just to prove how much you know?



Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 2:19pm by Parathyroid
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#240 Jun 03 2013 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Lack of available high value units (e.g. healers, tanks) is a widely accepted problem in most MMOs, not just my opinion.

When you have those high value units in the game, encounter balance must be tuned higher to preserve the challenge of the game. That means that parties of low value units can't clear the content. That's what results in people sitting around with their thumbs up their asses for a high value unit (like a WHM) to appear so that they can experience content.


Ah I see now. To you, EVERY game is just poorly designed. Smiley: lol Sorry to break it you, but every single MMO I've ever played has classes that are just more important or higher value than others. If they were all evenly balanced, it would be the most boring game in existence, because there would be absolutely no point in playing other classes. You can't get a tactical advantage on anyone, because everyone has the same inherent optimum ability. Sorry, that's just ridiculous.

The way a game SHOULD work is that certain classes have distinct advantages over certain other classes based on their inherent abilities, but those other classes outshine them in other ways and have advantages over other classes. Basically the rock paper scissors idea. Every mmo I've played has this.


Yes clearly you understood everything he said huh ? Smiley: lol


Yeah, actually I did. I didn't agree with it. There's a difference. This on the other hand...
Ostia wrote:
also you guys need to relax a bit before posting, and actually think on what you are commenting, you are talking about healers in the PVE sense, when kachi is talking about it in a PVP sense,


Talk about being /whooshed. Seems like you didn't even read his premise, since the entire thing revolved around only using PvP as a stepping stone to balance PvE.

#241 Jun 03 2013 at 12:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 2:23pm by Parathyroid
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#242 Jun 03 2013 at 12:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Parathyroid wrote:
He deserves to be talked down to, it's how he treats everyone else, and I think you deserve what you give.
"He started it" doesn't exactly work with my four year old daughter when she fights the dog.
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#243 Jun 03 2013 at 12:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistake ><

Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 3:20pm by Hatamaz
#244 Jun 03 2013 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Parathyroid wrote:
He deserves to be talked down to, it's how he treats everyone else, and I think you deserve what you give.
"He started it" doesn't exactly work with my four year old daughter when she fights the dog.


No, wow, now I know how Kachi feels.

I made the initial comment because Kachi said he looks down on those who start fights (paraphrasing) when in fact he is the one who made the demeaning comments. It is by definition, literally the definition, hypocrisy.
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#245 Jun 03 2013 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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Actually you know what, this is absolutely asinine.

I apologize to Kachi for going back and forth with you.

To Ostia for the same.

To LolGAxe, I don't know... your avatar just makes me think you are really scary in real life, so I apologize.

And to all of ZAM for polluting the forums with this brand of crap which has consisted of the last 100 posts or so here.
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#246 Jun 03 2013 at 1:12 PM Rating: Default
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Hatamaz wrote:
Ostia wrote:
The way a game SHOULD work is that certain classes have distinct advantages over certain other classes based on their inherent abilities, but those other classes outshine them in other ways and have advantages over other classes


Now wait just a minute, I thought you and Kachi were wanting every class to basically have a 50/50 chance of winning against each other going toe to toe in PvP with the balance coming from some really complicated magical mathematical algorithm on the backend?

I swear it really sounds like the perfect game for you would be DCUO. They strike the kind of balance you describe above.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 2:35pm by Hatamaz


I did not say that, that was a quote from BartelX.
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#247 Jun 03 2013 at 1:18 PM Rating: Default
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I see that now. I apologize.

Valid excuse. I'm working nights and just woke up! Quote boxes are not my friend.
#248 Jun 03 2013 at 1:33 PM Rating: Good
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Holy cow...What did I start?

Apparently people are more passionate about PVP than I thought :P
#249 Jun 03 2013 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Lack of available high value units (e.g. healers, tanks) is a widely accepted problem in most MMOs, not just my opinion.

When you have those high value units in the game, encounter balance must be tuned higher to preserve the challenge of the game. That means that parties of low value units can't clear the content. That's what results in people sitting around with their thumbs up their asses for a high value unit (like a WHM) to appear so that they can experience content.


Ah I see now. To you, EVERY game is just poorly designed. Smiley: lol Sorry to break it you, but every single MMO I've ever played has classes that are just more important or higher value than others. If they were all evenly balanced, it would be the most boring game in existence, because there would be absolutely no point in playing other classes. You can't get a tactical advantage on anyone, because everyone has the same inherent optimum ability. Sorry, that's just ridiculous.

The way a game SHOULD work is that certain classes have distinct advantages over certain other classes based on their inherent abilities, but those other classes outshine them in other ways and have advantages over other classes. Basically the rock paper scissors idea. Every mmo I've played has this.


Yes clearly you understood everything he said huh ? Smiley: lol


Yeah, actually I did. I didn't agree with it. There's a difference. This on the other hand...
Ostia wrote:
also you guys need to relax a bit before posting, and actually think on what you are commenting, you are talking about healers in the PVE sense, when kachi is talking about it in a PVP sense,


Talk about being /whooshed. Seems like you didn't even read his premise, since the entire thing revolved around only using PvP as a stepping stone to balance PvE.



Hahaha! Actually you did not even comprehend what he said, if you did, you would not have written that reply, you do know that you are actually agreeing with him Smiley: lol Again please do read
Quote:
Lack of available high value units (e.g. healers, tanks) is a widely accepted problem in most MMOs, not just my opinion.


That is a factual statement, you do not have to agree, is a fact, you only have to accept It. See you like to argue giving your opinion, so that others give theirs and in the case you cannot disprove the other persons opinions, you back off and agree to disagree, but sadly he stated a fact, and you basically agreed with him, you just stated it as "In my opinion it should be like that" and he stated it as "Yes is a problem, but we have come to accept it"

Which again is a fact, the Wow dev team has said so countless times, the perfect example was when they introduced the server wide party feature, Tanks/healers had waiting times of 1-10 seconds, DD's had waiting times of 30 Minutes, thus you have the majority of the population waiting on a minority, that is a problem. Why do you think in Swotor every class had a healing abilitie ? Or that GW2 moved away from the trinity ? All this games have seen the problem and have tried to address it in their own ways, have they come up with the perfect solution ? Nope! But they are all trying in their own way.
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#250 Jun 03 2013 at 1:46 PM Rating: Default
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Parathyroid wrote:
Actually you know what, this is absolutely asinine.

I apologize to Kachi for going back and forth with you.

To Ostia for the same.

To LolGAxe, I don't know... your avatar just makes me think you are really scary in real life, so I apologize.

And to all of ZAM for polluting the forums with this brand of crap which has consisted of the last 100 posts or so here.


Relax is an internet forum, people can get a bit carried away, i dont think anybody was overboard, you guys are just passionate about the discussion, i have no problem with that Smiley: lol
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#251 Jun 03 2013 at 1:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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IKickYoDog wrote:
They just need to hurry up and make Persona Arena / Mortal Kombat Online / Street Fighter Online and call it a day Smiley: laugh


Wrong! Pokemon MMO plz.
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