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PVP Worlds...Follow

#127 Jun 01 2013 at 5:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
If what Kachi says is really what they're teaching in game design school these days, that really helps me understand why games these days are so boring. Seriously, anyone, go play Guild Wars 2 and tell me that's really an interesting battle system. It flat-out sucks. Solo play is super easy, and there's really no point to play in parties. Even when people do play in parties, they just kind of zerg the same thing, because everyone is good at everything. There are no real strengths or weaknesses. It's like the little-league soccer of MMORPGs.

I have no doubt that Kachi's opinions on balance are based on math. That doesn't mean it's the optimal approach though. Obviously, it depends on what you want from your game; other approaches to game design will also be based on math, too.

Whichever math you choose to follow, the bottom line is that FFXIV should not be (and, thankfully, will not be) a game where a white mage can go toe-to-toe with a damage dealer. That's just not realistic, and it doesn't make any sense. A damage dealer should win that fight pretty quickly 100 percent of the time. I'm trying to imagine a real-world example of a soldier versus a field medic... the soldier wins that fight every time... but soldiers need field medics to survive.

You add "balance" to the confrontation by adding different players (or, in this case, monsters) with their own strengths and weaknesses to each side of the battle. THAT is how you encourage interesting, involved PvE battles. That's the difference between Final Fantasy (which has always emphasized party play) and everything else on the market, which is catering to the individual. That's why SE would be making a HUGE mistake to balance FFXIV on PvP principles.

Edited, Jun 1st 2013 3:54pm by Thayos


Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:
If balance is so much fun, then trains are rollercoasters.


Archmage Callinon wrote:
There's also the fact that 1v1 balancing is just about the dumbest thing you can attempt.

There's no way to do it without making the classes carbon copies of each other. MMOs are meant to be played in groups. And there's a very good reason why Blizzard stopped caring about even their 2v2 arena bracket, and doesn't offer a 1v1 bracket.


Oyvey, all that and people are still confusing role and balance. Look, GW2 sucks because everyone has the same basic ROLE. The classes are not even balanced. That's why I specifically said I didn't want to use it as an example--it's not a good example. If that's what you're picturing, then stop--just... stop.

If you're thinking it affects gameplay in any meaningful way, then you're wrong, and you haven't grasped a single thing about statistical balancing. White Mages still heal, Paladins still tank-- party dynamics and roles remain intact. The ONLY real difference in using PvP to conduct statistical balancing is that you don't need any specific class unless the encounter is designed for you to need it.

@Thayos: How on earth do you figure that it's unrealistic for a White Mage to go toe-to-toe with a damage dealer? You realize that that can happen in the FF world at any time? Put a high level healer against a low level DD, done. A White Mage uses MAGIC. Narratively, that magic can be as strong as you want it to be--strong enough to undo the damage that a warrior does. That's the convenient thing about magic--it's a narrative Cure V for the problem of realism.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#128 Jun 01 2013 at 5:49 PM Rating: Decent
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There's too many undefined variables to make it that simple, and more would be added on a regular basis... but I digress.


Yeah, it sure would be helpful if there was some way to control a certain set of fundamental variables, so that the encounter designs didn't have to be cobbled together in complete chaos via trial and error. Hmm, if only.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#129 Jun 01 2013 at 6:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Put a high level healer against a low level DD, done.


Oh, I thought you meant that healers and DDs of equal level should be equal in a one-on-one fight. A high-level whm surviving against a low-level DD makes more sense.
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#130 Jun 01 2013 at 7:03 PM Rating: Decent
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here my idea of what they should do


make it an opnion for free company to flag themself as open world pvp.
so free company can open world pvp with each otherr.


does that hate open world pvp wouldnt get effect by this because they wouldnt join a pvpflag free company
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#131 Jun 01 2013 at 7:14 PM Rating: Decent
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That is what I mean. I was just using that as an example that there is no law that healers must crumple like flowers before any damage dealer. Why does a healer die to a damage dealer, narratively? Simply because we decide that their healing magic isn't potent enough to keep up with a damage dealer of the same level. But there's no reason we can't decide that it is.

Gameplay-wise, it's because of a statistical imbalance, but not the way you're thinking--consider that in most games, the healer is the first to die in PvP, but one of the most valuable units in PvE. If you're looking at it from that perspective, I can understand why it's difficult to see how balancing the class for PvP first lends itself to improved balance in PvE. But that's not what balancing the character is about. Balancing the character deals with both the balance in 1v1 and the balance in group v group. So yeah, the 1v1 matters and the white mage should be able to stand against the warrior, but it's not the entirety of unit balancing. If you only balance for 1v1, you haven't considered interplayer mechanics, so you haven't balanced everything.

Ultimately MMOs are racing games. The contestants are your entire party versus the enemy's entire party, and the race is a matter of HP loss. When you statistically balance the units so that your entire party always has roughly equivalent "HP impact," then you have a fixed starting point for enemy encounters. When you DON'T, then the enemy encounter is almost impossible to balance against player skill, and will depend significantly more upon the unit values in the player party.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#132 Jun 01 2013 at 7:54 PM Rating: Good
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No matter how you balance it the guy with the shiny stick and flowery language dressed in robes should be all but instantly slaughtered by the guy with armor plating and a 7 foot lance. Healers heal. Damage dealers kill stuff. There's your balance. Yin and yang etc etc

Recent games have made healers do damage to other stuff in order to heal themselves or friends. But I've yet to see them give meaningful healing abilities to DD classes. It seems to me like they're over reaching what healing and support classes have been since table top RPGs. If you want to be the spell caster you give up hand to hand combat. If you want to do damage you sacrifice healing. That in my eyes is the balance. Every job is a point on a circle. Each job counterweights the other in a dynamic equilibrium. Making every class be able to everything is the same as just making one class be able to do anything. Which is why people were so upset in 1.0 and the jobs got put back in. Players want to be able to define their role.

ETA: unless you're counting Gandalf. The ultimate RDM brandishing his staff and sword fighting a creature made of shadow and flame with the flame of arnor. Which I guess would also put the whole elemental wheel discussion out of sorts too. Lol

Edited, Jun 1st 2013 7:02pm by LebargeX
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#133 Jun 01 2013 at 8:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Simply because we decide that their healing magic isn't potent enough to keep up with a damage dealer of the same level. But there's no reason we can't decide that it is.


You're right; it's a choice. The logical assumption is the armor-plated warrior with the Uber Battleaxe of Death will wipe the floor with the robed wand-waving white mage. That's how all Final Fantasy games have always been. You protect your mages. Control hate, use cover, put them in the back row, whatever. The party is balanced by each job having a role.

You could choose to do it your way, but that wouldn't be the Final Fantasy way, and this is a Final Fantasy game. Leave the 1:1 balancing to other games that invest more in PvP.

Quote:
No matter how you balance it the guy with the shiny stick and flowery language dressed in robes should be all but instantly slaughtered by the guy with armor plating and a 7 foot lance. Healers heal. Damage dealers kill stuff. There's your balance. Yin and yang etc etc


Exactly.
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#134 Jun 01 2013 at 8:47 PM Rating: Decent
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LebargeX wrote:
No matter how you balance it the guy with the shiny stick and flowery language dressed in robes should be all but instantly slaughtered by the guy with armor plating and a 7 foot lance. Healers heal. Damage dealers kill stuff. There's your balance. Yin and yang etc etc

Recent games have made healers do damage to other stuff in order to heal themselves or friends. But I've yet to see them give meaningful healing abilities to DD classes. It seems to me like they're over reaching what healing and support classes have been since table top RPGs. If you want to be the spell caster you give up hand to hand combat. If you want to do damage you sacrifice healing. That in my eyes is the balance. Every job is a point on a circle. Each job counterweights the other in a dynamic equilibrium. Making every class be able to everything is the same as just making one class be able to do anything. Which is why people were so upset in 1.0 and the jobs got put back in. Players want to be able to define their role.

ETA: unless you're counting Gandalf. The ultimate RDM brandishing his staff and sword fighting a creature made of shadow and flame with the flame of arnor. Which I guess would also put the whole elemental wheel discussion out of sorts too. Lol

Edited, Jun 1st 2013 7:02pm by LebargeX


&@Thayos, too, for echoing.

Again, that's not what I'm saying. I feel as though I'm not being listened to, here. You are talking about ROLES. I am talking about statistical balance. They are completely different things!

Let me go back to the narrative issue again, just because the first and second time were apparently not enough (which again, form should follow function, and narrative follows gameplay, not the other way around):
Why shouldn't the healer have potent enough healing powers that they can heal themselves effectively when stabbed by the guy with the lance? If you stop to think about it for more than two seconds, you'll quickly realize that there is no rational answer to this question. The healer is a healer, and so should excel at healing things, just like the lancer is good with a lance, and should excel at lancing things. No change of roles! The only question is, why can't the healer heal as competently as the lancer can lance? Why can't his healing numbers be raised in accordance with the lancer's lancing numbers?

The answer to that question has nothing to do with "realism" or "Final Fantasy tradition." It's purely a manifestation of the trinity, and we can open up a whole new thread about why the trinity is another tired and poorly implemented mechanic, why the number of roles in the trinity (ostensibly, three) is completely arbitrary, and how every class can be as equal a part of that teamwork wheel as any other if designed to be that way.

Guys, I know that you might not realize this, especially if you only hang out in this insular little community, but there are MMO fans in every game ******** daily and in unison about these issues in every game. They don't all agree, but don't think that this is just Kachi being eccentric. Lots of people are unhappy with the state of MMOs, and lots of people blame mechanics like the trinity, and poor development practices, like unit balancing. I promise I'm not treating you to my own brand of crackpot theories. Even game designers widely acknowledge these problems (but again, not all of them seeing the solutions). It's not always that they don't want to change them, but sometimes that investors, producers, and other designers won't allow them too.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#135 Jun 01 2013 at 9:05 PM Rating: Decent
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If it all balances out to zero then how do you determine a winner? Skill of the player?

But I'm teh leet rogue of d00m I should be able to slaughter this healer

But I'm teh leet healer of d00m and mom says that like Keith Richards I can't be harmed by conventional weapons.

If PvP is going to be a never ending war of attrition then I don't think that is good design. My opinion has always been that PvP should be role less because no matter your role 99 percent of people play it the same way. Run up to the closest guy throw everything you have at him until one of you dies. So why not just make a PvP job that has access to everything? Load up your skills load your weapons and just have at it. Then it's up to he players to balance out the fight not the programmers.

Stuff like this is why I usually have a distaste for PvP in general.

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#136 Jun 01 2013 at 9:11 PM Rating: Good
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Now, all sodas are basically the same. Carbonation, high fructose syrup, et cetera.


I buy the ones in the bottle from mexico. They use cane sugar :)
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#137 Jun 01 2013 at 9:12 PM Rating: Default
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The WHM might be able to outheal the damage at first, but then he runs out of mp and hasn't widdled the DD's hp down enough while he keeps trying to heal himself through the constant barrage of DD attacks.

I just must not understand where you are going with the statistical balancing mumbo jumbo.

I like the roles. It gives each person in their certain role something that they contribute to the party.
#138 Jun 01 2013 at 9:51 PM Rating: Decent
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LebargeX wrote:
If it all balances out to zero then how do you determine a winner? Skill of the player?

But I'm teh leet rogue of d00m I should be able to slaughter this healer

But I'm teh leet healer of d00m and mom says that like Keith Richards I can't be harmed by conventional weapons.

If PvP is going to be a never ending war of attrition then I don't think that is good design. My opinion has always been that PvP should be role less because no matter your role 99 percent of people play it the same way. Run up to the closest guy throw everything you have at him until one of you dies. So why not just make a PvP job that has access to everything? Load up your skills load your weapons and just have at it. Then it's up to he players to balance out the fight not the programmers.

Stuff like this is why I usually have a distaste for PvP in general.



Is this really some revolutionary concept? That the more skilled player should be the winner? Game designers have known that nugget for decades. But moreover, it's not about who wins in PvP. It's about who "wins the invites" in PvE. It's about making sure that each class can pull its own weight without requiring a certain balance of roles. The roles are still there! They haven't changed at all! But you can win with whichever set of roles you want to, because they all bring an equal contribution to the party. If that concerns you because you imagine a scenario where parties are all DDs who just sit there wailing on the enemy with no sense of group tactics at all, then good, but that's a totally separate problem that has to do with poorly designed DDs. It has nothing to do with balancing the classes. It has to do with unoriginal class design that requires little thought.

Hatamaz wrote:
The WHM might be able to outheal the damage at first, but then he runs out of mp and hasn't widdled the DD's hp down enough while he keeps trying to heal himself through the constant barrage of DD attacks.

I just must not understand where you are going with the statistical balancing mumbo jumbo.

I like the roles. It gives each person in their certain role something that they contribute to the party.


I like the roles, too. That's why I'm saying they should stay the same. And the situation you're describing with the WHM and DD is totally plausible. I guess I'm not sure what you were trying to convey here.

It's numbers on the backend. That's it. It's invisible to you as the player, and it doesn't affect the role of your class. It's saying, "We want WHM to be a healer, but we don't want WHM to be necessary for a party to function properly. A good WHM is better to have than a bad DD, and vice versa." That has nothing to do with roles. It has to do with statistical balance.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#139 Jun 01 2013 at 10:22 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
"We want WHM to be a healer, but we don't want WHM to be necessary for a party to function properly.


I understand not having a whm to be necessary for a party to function, but shouldn't one of the classes/jobs stand in for the healer role for the party to function? Just like not having a pld to tank, but hey here is a war he can step in and tank for us.

Kachi wrote:
A good WHM is better to have than a bad DD, and vice versa." That has nothing to do with roles. It has to do with statistical balance.


That just sounds like player skill there instead of any statistical balance.

I think I'm just going to give up on where you're going with all of this though. I understand for PvP you want to make things as balanced as possible so that you don't have one job way overpowered over others. But as far as a healer class taking on a DD class to where they are equally geared and skilled is just mind blowing to me I guess. It just makes sense to me that as a healer in PvP my job is to keep my friends alive by healing and run like a **** from the other team's DDs that are aiming for me.

As for 1v1 my most experience with that is in DCUO. I 1v1'ed alot with a healer class against DD's. I won my fair share, but there was alot more going on than just numbers. It really depended on the player twitching at the right time with the correct move that would then stun the other player. It didn't have much to do with the fact that I was able to outheal their damage, because if I could read their moves right I would basically take no damage. But if I went up against a DD that was equal to my skill and he caught me offguard just a couple of times he would destroy me with the amount of damage he could put out. But that's a different game.

I'm trying to think about this in FF terms, but I'm having a hard time with it. I really hope that whatever PvP they put into XIV is awesome and adds something fun and fresh we can do. But I really hope they keep the balancing for PvP jobs different from PvE jobs. And no open world PvP.



#140 Jun 01 2013 at 11:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Why shouldn't the healer have potent enough healing powers that they can heal themselves effectively when stabbed by the guy with the lance?


Healers in Final Fantasy games excel at healing the party, because it's a party-oriented game. White mages may also be able to drop a couple of cures on themselves to survive a bit longer when being attacked, but a white mage simply doesn't have the defense to take too many big hits. But when the tank is controlling hate, and the DDs are minding their damage output, then the white mage has the power to sustain the tank through even the most lethal of attacks.... and that is the role/job/statistical advantage (whatever you want to call it) of the white mage... NOT individual survivability, which, if anything, is the strength of a tank or hybrid (think rdm) job.

Quote:
If you stop to think about it for more than two seconds, you'll quickly realize that there is no rational answer to this question. The healer is a healer, and so should excel at healing things, just like the lancer is good with a lance, and should excel at lancing things. No change of roles!


Again, Kachi, you are correct, but not for the reason you'd like to be correct. There is no rational answer as to why a white mage should or shouldn't be able to have total survivability against a DD. In the end, it's all a matter of choice, and it goes both ways. If we were holding this conversation in the forum for a PvP-heavy game, there may be people building virtual statues of you in Second Life. However, this is a Final Fantasy forum, and the "balance" you're describing just isn't balanced at all in our kind of game.

It's not about math, Kachi... it's about preference. People who are in this "insular little community" choose to be here because we like our games a certain way. Others may not like this, or they may not understand how inequalities provide balance. Fortunately, they can choose to play other games with different design concepts, and then everyone is happy.

Quote:
The only question is, why can't the healer heal as competently as the lancer can lance? Why can't his healing numbers be raised in accordance with the lancer's lancing numbers?


Again, white mages were never meant to excel at healing themselves and be beacons of survivability who can go toe-to-toe with DDs. That's a paladin. White mages are meant to excel at quickly and efficiently healing everyone around them, and they are just as effective doing that as a lancer is at lancing monsters.

I think the big issue here is that your definition of "balance" doesn't match up with the kind of balance the rest of us seem to want in FFXIV. You may say that we're confused, or maybe we just don't get it, but I'm pretty certain that most of us know exactly what kind of game we want to play. Hence, why we're here.

EDIT:

Quote:
It's about making sure that each class can pull its own weight without requiring a certain balance of roles. The roles are still there! They haven't changed at all! But you can win with whichever set of roles you want to, because they all bring an equal contribution to the party.


The roles/jobs/whatever in FFXIV should be balanced so that a party of all white mages will never win a significant boss battle. I hate putting words in people's mouths... but, based on your paragraph here, you seem to be saying that a party of white mages should be just as effective as a balanced party with tanks, DDs, support jobs and healers.

Edited, Jun 1st 2013 10:26pm by Thayos
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#141 Jun 01 2013 at 11:05 PM Rating: Decent
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I think PVP dynamics should be the same as PVE dynamics. I see no reason for every class to be equal on a 1v1 basis, as MMOs are multiplayer games, as was said before. In world PVP, some classes should be suited for lone strike/reconnaissance/assassination roles, some suited for being front line defensive/offensive troops, some suited for supporting other classes, some suited for providing supporting offensive power, etc.

I also see no reason for every group of size N for any given N to be balanced against any other group of size N. PVP should involve strategy, and coming to the fight with a suitable group to face off your enemy (and knowing when to run when you don't have suitable backup) should be a part of that.
#142 Jun 01 2013 at 11:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
LebargeX wrote:
If it all balances out to zero then how do you determine a winner? Skill of the player?

But I'm teh leet rogue of d00m I should be able to slaughter this healer

But I'm teh leet healer of d00m and mom says that like Keith Richards I can't be harmed by conventional weapons.

If PvP is going to be a never ending war of attrition then I don't think that is good design. My opinion has always been that PvP should be role less because no matter your role 99 percent of people play it the same way. Run up to the closest guy throw everything you have at him until one of you dies. So why not just make a PvP job that has access to everything? Load up your skills load your weapons and just have at it. Then it's up to he players to balance out the fight not the programmers.

Stuff like this is why I usually have a distaste for PvP in general.



Is this really some revolutionary concept? That the more skilled player should be the winner? Game designers have known that nugget for decades. But moreover, it's not about who wins in PvP. It's about who "wins the invites" in PvE. It's about making sure that each class can pull its own weight without requiring a certain balance of roles. The roles are still there! They haven't changed at all! But you can win with whichever set of roles you want to, because they all bring an equal contribution to the party. If that concerns you because you imagine a scenario where parties are all DDs who just sit there wailing on the enemy with no sense of group tactics at all, then good, but that's a totally separate problem that has to do with poorly designed DDs. It has nothing to do with balancing the classes. It has to do with unoriginal class design that requires little thought.

Hatamaz wrote:
The WHM might be able to outheal the damage at first, but then he runs out of mp and hasn't widdled the DD's hp down enough while he keeps trying to heal himself through the constant barrage of DD attacks.

I just must not understand where you are going with the statistical balancing mumbo jumbo.

I like the roles. It gives each person in their certain role something that they contribute to the party.


I like the roles, too. That's why I'm saying they should stay the same. And the situation you're describing with the WHM and DD is totally plausible. I guess I'm not sure what you were trying to convey here.

It's numbers on the backend. That's it. It's invisible to you as the player, and it doesn't affect the role of your class. It's saying, "We want WHM to be a healer, but we don't want WHM to be necessary for a party to function properly. A good WHM is better to have than a bad DD, and vice versa." That has nothing to do with roles. It has to do with statistical balance.


Point #1 - Good God the NDA needs to be lifted soon so we have something else to talk about.

Point #2 - Everyone is on here making the same circular argument using different words in each new post. Bottom line, some think there should be perfect balance between jobs, some think jobs should have clearly defined rolls.

Point #3 - It's crazy how much more difficult these long posts are to read when your friend Jack Daniels comes over.

Edit:

Point #4: If you can win the same battles with or without a WHM, what would the point be of EVER choosing to be a healing class?

Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 11:21am by Parathyroid
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#143 Jun 01 2013 at 11:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Point #2 - Everyone is on here making the same circular argument using different words in each new post. Bottom line, some think there should be perfect balance between jobs, some think jobs should have clearly defined rolls.


Really, it all boils down to this.

Most people here (possibly everyone except for Kachi) want PvE to be built open clearly defined roles in a party.

Kachi says it's better for PvE to be built upon the principles of PvP, in which any player should have a 50 percent chance of beating any other player (skill/gear ratings/etc being equal), which means jobs have to be balanced so everyone can heal/dd/tank/etc.

There is no "correct" answer to this issue... there is only what we prefer.

Edited, Jun 1st 2013 11:22pm by Thayos
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#144 Jun 02 2013 at 12:09 AM Rating: Good
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Caution: This post may contain bluntness not suitable for all audiences.

All I've gained from this entire thread is that I never want to play a game that Kachi designs. And no, I'm not saying you design BAD games. You just don't design a style of game I'd ever want to play. I think it would be incredibly boring and the encounters would mundane. You don't need to respond with why they wouldn't be and why it would be solid engaging content. I really don't care at this point. I like the game FFXIV is going to be. With it's distinct roles and it's not completely balanced classes. I think it's fun for classes to have roles and if it makes them slightly out of balance, I'm ok with that. Yes, I'm aware your theory still keeps the classes in roles, but the more you talk about it, the more boring it sounds and the less interested I am in it.

I hope you can someday make a game like this and that people who like this philosophy will think it's great and make it successful. I personally don't like the idea, but perhaps if the game were made and I could see it in action I'd change my mind. Anything's possible. Kudos. I'm out.

Yes, I've been drinking heavily and I'm ok with that too.
#145 Jun 02 2013 at 1:01 AM Rating: Decent
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I probably understood about 1/10th of what was discussed in this thread and I'm sober as a rope. (I don't know if that's actually a saying or not).

Open world PvP doesn't appeal to me in a FF game. In other games, sure, but FF has been a group vs. monsters and in an open world environment I'd like to keep it that way.

If there is PvP, I didn't mind Balista or whatever it was called, but again I don't need to have PvP.

Though PvP does sell, and would interject a bit more longevity into the game so I'm glad it's on the table.

---

From what I gather balancing shouldn't be confused with the style of role you wish to play, but I'm having a difficult time imagining that.

I want my class to be defined and differentiated from other classes, yet, in the same group of classes or roles statistically, such as DDs I want them to be about equal in the numbers they produce?

For the sake of argument a THF does burst damage and hits a lot otherwise with small numbers; while a DRK does big chunks of damage but misses a lot. Statistically and played at the optimal level they do the same damage but still retain their "individuality."

A WHM can do the same DMG only over a longer period time against a DD, but only due to survivability through healing and other defensive abilities.

In a PvE setting the role of WHM is still healer because over time healing benefits the group more than a weak Banish.

Is this basically the premise?

---

Like other posters stated 1v1 it still seems there'll be a rock, paper, scissors, lizard, spock, hierarchy.

All I can offer is anecdotes. In WoW as a rogue I loved hunting mages even though the ones that knew anything about the class would automatically "fear" me. I would in turn avoid Paladin's or other plate wearers because it was just too long of a fight...

---

I know I'm not really adding anything here, but I can't imagine how all of this is figured out on the developer's end.

In the end it's more important to me that a class has a more defined role and that role benefits the group, like a BRD's songs for example, than achieving perfect balance between the classes. It just sounds that these things have to be mutually exclusive. If they both can be achieved, then so be it. I know that GW2 was a bit innovative in this regard, but every class felt about the same and I don't know how balanced they were...

My brain hurts.
#146 Jun 02 2013 at 9:06 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
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Put a high level healer against a low level DD, done.


Oh, I thought you meant that healers and DDs of equal level should be equal in a one-on-one fight. A high-level whm surviving against a low-level DD makes more sense.


A high level healer who knows how to use their status effects and defensive stragities can take down a high level DD. It's been proven before in FFXI's own little PVP matches. Now, those fights, idealy shouldn't be 'toe to toe'. And I wouldn't expect FFXIV's White Mage to be successful as a single standing element.

The truth of the matter is, Guild Wars 2's greatest flaw in their role and balance issue is that they did not seperate their PvP and PvE battle kits.

This idea that Healers should do always poorly in PVP is just ludicrous, history in PvP has shown that aside from pure ganking, verses combat has always favored the defensive or ranged. White Mage is both. The kits are separate, but PvP and PvE kits are similar, white mage would kite the crap out of DDs with statistical effect like bind and weight. And the DD would, in effect, rely on ranged skills and gap closers to win.

I don't believe in unilateral equality, but there should always be enough room for error for a person at a disadvantage to win through luck and skillful play. One class's skill floor should never be above another class's skill ceiling. If that exists, than that's a balance issue. That's my stance on PvP.
#147 Jun 02 2013 at 9:14 AM Rating: Good
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****, XI's Maat fights were, in some ways, a sort of means test of all classes versus a very specific overpowered DD. White Mage could get away with simply surviving for 5 minutes, but plenty of white mages went into that fight prepared to fight and win. And they did. A good paralyze and slow on him helped a bunch. Red Mage didn't get the "just live" option, which is one reason it is considered the most difficult of the genkai 5 fights.

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#148 Jun 02 2013 at 9:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kierk wrote:
I probably understood about 1/10th of what was discussed in this thread and I'm sober as a rope. (I don't know if that's actually a saying or not).


It is now!
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I probably understood about 1/10th of what was discussed in this thread and I'm sober as a rope. (I don't know if that's actually a saying or not). -Kierk
#149 Jun 02 2013 at 9:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Point #4: If can win the same battles with or without a WHM, what would the point be of EVER choosing to be a healing class?


Because you want to? They're good at their job, or they're your friend? Aren't those the reasons you should invite someone, rather than because they're the only available WHM?

Thayos wrote:
Quote:
Point #2 - Everyone is on here making the same circular argument using different words in each new post. Bottom line, some think there should be perfect balance between jobs, some think jobs should have clearly defined rolls.


Really, it all boils down to this.

Most people here (possibly everyone except for Kachi) want PvE to be built open clearly defined roles in a party.

Kachi says it's better for PvE to be built upon the principles of PvP, in which any player should have a 50 percent chance of beating any other player (skill/gear ratings/etc being equal), which means jobs have to be balanced so everyone can heal/dd/tank/etc.

There is no "correct" answer to this issue... there is only what we prefer.

Edited, Jun 1st 2013 11:22pm by Thayos


I think you guys are getting too hung up on my 1v1 example, which as I said, was an attempt to simplify the argument. The group vs group PvP balance is much more important, but you have to start with the 1:1 class balance before you can sort that out, otherwise you end up with off-kilter "balances" like those in FFXI. Ultimately which you lean more heavily towards depends more upon whether the emphasis of your game is solo or party play.

But my point was never which you would enjoy more. It was about which method makes it easier for designers to create balanced encounters. I honestly don't trust any player to be able to answer what they would enjoy without having tried it, because they tend to not know very well (I'm going to wager that none of you have ever tried balancing a complex system). Case in point: all the people here complaining about it without even understanding that it doesn't even change the things they fear it does.

Quote:

From what I gather balancing shouldn't be confused with the style of role you wish to play, but I'm having a difficult time imagining that.

I want my class to be defined and differentiated from other classes, yet, in the same group of classes or roles statistically, such as DDs I want them to be about equal in the numbers they produce?

For the sake of argument a THF does burst damage and hits a lot otherwise with small numbers; while a DRK does big chunks of damage but misses a lot. Statistically and played at the optimal level they do the same damage but still retain their "individuality."

A WHM can do the same DMG only over a longer period time against a DD, but only due to survivability through healing and other defensive abilities.

In a PvE setting the role of WHM is still healer because over time healing benefits the group more than a weak Banish.

Is this basically the premise?


Basically, yes, you got it!

It's easier to design balanced monster encounters when you have a mathematical point of reference to start with. Otherwise, the go-to method is trial-and-error, which is a much more belabored process. When you know "a party of six players has this statistical power" you can mathematically generate a roughly equivalent monster encounter. Bearing in mind, this depends less on stats like STR/DEF/etc. than their role in the HP loss algorithms, which I think is confusing some people. It doesn't mean making WHM and DRG having the same defense/damage-dealing. It just means that in the larger game of "get their HP to 0" they have the same impact on the HP race (*not necessarily in all matchmaking cases; e.g., DRG may very well have an advantage against WHM, and WHM may perform better in certain encounters--that's all the designer's choice).
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#150 Jun 02 2013 at 9:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Point #4: If can win the same battles with or without a WHM, what would the point be of EVER choosing to be a healing class?


Because you want to? They're good at their job, or they're your friend? Aren't those the reasons you should invite someone, rather than because they're the only available WHM?

Thayos wrote:
Quote:
Point #2 - Everyone is on here making the same circular argument using different words in each new post. Bottom line, some think there should be perfect balance between jobs, some think jobs should have clearly defined rolls.


Really, it all boils down to this.

Most people here (possibly everyone except for Kachi) want PvE to be built open clearly defined roles in a party.

Kachi says it's better for PvE to be built upon the principles of PvP, in which any player should have a 50 percent chance of beating any other player (skill/gear ratings/etc being equal), which means jobs have to be balanced so everyone can heal/dd/tank/etc.

There is no "correct" answer to this issue... there is only what we prefer.

Edited, Jun 1st 2013 11:22pm by Thayos


I think you guys are getting too hung up on my 1v1 example, which as I said, was an attempt to simplify the argument. The group vs group PvP balance is much more important, but you have to start with the 1:1 class balance before you can sort that out, otherwise you end up with off-kilter "balances" like those in FFXI. Ultimately which you lean more heavily towards depends more upon whether the emphasis of your game is solo or party play.

But my point was never which you would enjoy more. It was about which method makes it easier for designers to create balanced encounters. I honestly don't trust any player to be able to answer what they would enjoy without having tried it, because they tend to not know very well (I'm going to wager that none of you have ever tried balancing a complex system). Case in point: all the people here complaining about it without even understanding that it doesn't even change the things they fear it does.

Quote:

From what I gather balancing shouldn't be confused with the style of role you wish to play, but I'm having a difficult time imagining that.

I want my class to be defined and differentiated from other classes, yet, in the same group of classes or roles statistically, such as DDs I want them to be about equal in the numbers they produce?

For the sake of argument a THF does burst damage and hits a lot otherwise with small numbers; while a DRK does big chunks of damage but misses a lot. Statistically and played at the optimal level they do the same damage but still retain their "individuality."

A WHM can do the same DMG only over a longer period time against a DD, but only due to survivability through healing and other defensive abilities.

In a PvE setting the role of WHM is still healer because over time healing benefits the group more than a weak Banish.

Is this basically the premise?


Basically, yes, you got it!

It's easier to design balanced monster encounters when you have a mathematical point of reference to start with. Otherwise, the go-to method is trial-and-error, which is a much more belabored process. When you know "a party of six players has this statistical power" you can mathematically generate a roughly equivalent monster encounter. Bearing in mind, this depends less on stats like STR/DEF/etc. than their role in the HP loss algorithms, which I think is confusing some people. It doesn't mean making WHM and DRG having the same defense/damage-dealing. It just means that in the larger game of "get their HP to 0" they have the same impact on the HP race (*not necessarily in all matchmaking cases; e.g., DRG may very well have an advantage against WHM, and WHM may perform better in certain encounters--that's all the designer's choice).


Dude I like you, and I think you are very intelligent so I don't want to get on your or anyone's bad side here...

But I don't think anyone's getting hung up on the 1v1 idea... I feel like everyone just thinks the type of gameplay you've described is entirely unappealing. It's pretty much as simple as that.

With that said, I think your ideas would be loved by other types of gamers, but it's certainly not going to fly with a bunch of FF fans.
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#151 Jun 02 2013 at 9:34 AM Rating: Good
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Parathyroid wrote:
Dude I like you, and I think you are very intelligent so I don't want to get on your or anyone's bad side here...

But I don't think anyone's getting hung up on the 1v1 idea... I feel like everyone just thinks the type of gameplay you've described is entirely unappealing. It's pretty much as simple as that.

With that said, I think your ideas would be loved by other types of gamers, but it's certainly not going to fly with a bunch of FF fans.


Smiley: nod
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