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FFXIV or FFXI-2 [Which would you prefer]Follow

#52 Jun 03 2013 at 7:45 PM Rating: Decent
BartelX wrote:
Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:
How about neither?

Why not strike out in a bold new direction?


Pretty sure that's what FFXIV 1.0 tried to do. Course, they also tried to be different just for the sake of being different, and basically ruined every facet of the game because of it. I'd rather have a game that uses systems that works and innovates through a unique story and adds some interesting gameplay elements.

I know, but what I would have love to see them do is just not try to redo another fantasy setting, job based game that works using the years of feedback from FFXI and from the genre.

I really want ARR to be good in a way, because I do want to see the franchise have another hit. I just think that they need to look at where they could find another innovative space.
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#53 Jun 03 2013 at 7:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:
How about neither?

Why not strike out in a bold new direction?


Pretty sure that's what FFXIV 1.0 tried to do. Course, they also tried to be different just for the sake of being different, and basically ruined every facet of the game because of it. I'd rather have a game that uses systems that works and innovates through a unique story and adds some interesting gameplay elements.

I know, but what I would have love to see them do is just not try to redo another fantasy setting, job based game that works using the years of feedback from FFXI and from the genre.

I really want ARR to be good in a way, because I do want to see the franchise have another hit. I just think that they need to look at where they could find another innovative space.


Yeah, I agree. As excited as I am for ARR, I do kinda wish they were innovating a BIT more. I mean, I love some of the stuff they're pulling from other games, but I'd really like to see some more innovative ways to level, and a unique battle system. I suppose I won't really know until I get a chance to play, but a man can dream...

Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 9:51pm by BartelX
#54 Jun 03 2013 at 8:04 PM Rating: Excellent
BartelX wrote:
Yeah, I agree. As excited as I am for ARR, I do kinda wish they were innovating a BIT more. I mean, I love some of the stuff they're pulling from other games, but I'd really like to see some more innovative ways to level, and a unique battle system. I suppose I won't really know until I get a chance to play, but a man can dream...

Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 9:51pm by BartelX

Yea, it is sort of like they forgot what made them such a powerhouse developer. It wasn't just FF. It was the Chrono series, Xenogears, SaGa, BraveFencer.... they used to take risks, smart risks, but still risks. With the original FFXIV, they just decided to be different to be different. ARR seems like they are just there, staring longingly at the fans saying "HERE HAVE MORE CAKE PLEASE DO NOT HATE US DO YOU WANT TO PLAY AS MOOGLES WE CAN DO THAT PLEASE DON'T LEAVE WE LOVE YOUR MONEY I MEAN YOU!!!"

I'd love to see them innovate again. Like, say bring Xeno to the MMO arena. Or go for an Action-RPG-MMO. Or even go for a Diablo-esque dungeoner... they have a LOT of talent, I just find they squander it either pandering for pennies or on these new "experiences" like battle systems where you don't do **** but hit Autoattack, or Tanaka-eque projects of "Fans will love this even if they keep saying over and over they won't."
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#55 Jun 03 2013 at 8:09 PM Rating: Good
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Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:
ARR seems like they are just there, staring longingly at the fans saying "HERE HAVE MORE CAKE PLEASE DO NOT HATE US DO YOU WANT TO PLAY AS MOOGLES WE CAN DO THAT PLEASE DON'T LEAVE WE LOVE YOUR MONEY I MEAN YOU!!!"


Smiley: lol That's hilarious... and I can't really say I disagree. Although I also can't say I don't love all the FF fanservice. Nostalgia is a very potent thing.

Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:
I'd love to see them innovate again. Like, say bring Xeno to the MMO arena. Or go for an Action-RPG-MMO. Or even go for a Diablo-esque dungeoner... they have a LOT of talent, I just find they squander it either pandering for pennies or on these new "experiences" like battle systems where you don't do sh*t but hit Autoattack, or Tanaka-eque projects of "Fans will love this even if they keep saying over and over they won't."


I'm pretty much done with Tanaka. His work has been going downhill for years imo.
#56 Jun 03 2013 at 8:14 PM Rating: Good
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I donno. Form what I've seen, I like what they are doing. They don't have to be hugely innovative, I think honestly that's a bad way to go these days. When they try to be innovative in major ways they end up stumbling over themselves messing up the things they got right. Perhaps it's my age but I like the classic Final fantasy games. I really like a lot of the call-backs that have been displayed so far and I'm anxious to see how more of it comes along.

I see more homage and nostaliga than desperation here. Not that they're not capitalizing on that nostalgia, but they're doing it right by me.
#57 Jun 03 2013 at 8:20 PM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
Perhaps it's my age but I like the classic Final fantasy games.


Oh, I love them too, but I think that's exactly what we're talking about. Think of how much innovation those games had. Every single iteration of FF introduce an almost entirely new aspect to the gameplay, be it the job system, open-ended leveling with espers, drawing magic from enemies, the materia system, the sphere grid... you name it. The games always had some major gameplay element that made them completely unique and yet worked so incredibly well within the confines of the game. I'd love to see more of that. I am optimistic that we will see more, and also that the next beta phase will start introducing a bit more of that innovation to wet our taste buds.
#58 Jun 04 2013 at 7:27 AM Rating: Good
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Final Fantasy XIII tried to be innovative...look at how people responded to that.
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#59 Jun 04 2013 at 7:39 AM Rating: Decent
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I hope that they keep up with having the next FF games story and player based decisions to the games and see if they can be better at story telling than Bioware/EA
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#60 Jun 04 2013 at 8:11 AM Rating: Good
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Atkascha wrote:
Final Fantasy XIII tried to be innovative...look at how people responded to that.


Yes, but it also removed one of the key elements that earlier FF titles had... exploration. Almost the entire game was on rails, and regardless of how innovative they wanted to be, that really ruined the enjoyment for a lot of people, myself included.
#61 Jun 04 2013 at 8:22 AM Rating: Good
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When XIV first came out I was hoping for XI-2. Now, I want XIV.
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#62 Jun 04 2013 at 8:31 AM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Yes, but it also removed one of the key elements that earlier FF titles had... exploration.
What exploration do you mean? The ability to walk to the edge of a map simply because that was there and it was just scenery? Frankly, meh. All of five minutes per map. Hardly something to be upset over. Anywhere in previous games that had treasure weren't more "off the rails" than XIII was. The only place to go really "exploring" a Final Fantasy game is at end game, and lo and behold XIII had that. Maybe you mean towns? All of society is deathly afraid of you and you're trying to escape being killed. Walking around town mingling is the opposite of what the narrative demanded. Really, early game exploration is actually a means to extend gameplay without actual gameplay. It's sole purpose is to waste your time. You might as well argue that your favorite show is ruined on DVD because they took out the commercials.
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#63 Jun 04 2013 at 8:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
Atkascha wrote:
Final Fantasy XIII tried to be innovative...look at how people responded to that.


Yes, but it also removed one of the key elements that earlier FF titles had... exploration. Almost the entire game was on rails, and regardless of how innovative they wanted to be, that really ruined the enjoyment for a lot of people, myself included.


I just think the rails were more visible because you saw the map. That's it. FF and nearly all Japanese RPGs are "on rails" and tell a very specific story. The only exploration in previous FF's was you not know which town you were supposed to go to next. ****, FFX was the first to remove that aspect and it was one of the best.
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#64 Jun 04 2013 at 9:10 AM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Yes, but it also removed one of the key elements that earlier FF titles had... exploration.
What exploration do you mean? The ability to walk to the edge of a map simply because that was there and it was just scenery? Frankly, meh. All of five minutes per map. Hardly something to be upset over. Anywhere in previous games that had treasure weren't more "off the rails" than XIII was. The only place to go really "exploring" a Final Fantasy game is at end game, and lo and behold XIII had that. Maybe you mean towns? All of society is deathly afraid of you and you're trying to escape being killed. Walking around town mingling is the opposite of what the narrative demanded. Really, early game exploration is actually a means to extend gameplay without actual gameplay. It's sole purpose is to waste your time. You might as well argue that your favorite show is ruined on DVD because they took out the commercials.


Some people actually enjoy exploring an open world map. I like the freedom of running around in an open space, rather than a tiny, walled-in corridor. Yes, I get it... open world maps are just larger versions of said corridor, but there's a heck of a lot more space and freedom of discovery. Not to mention, pretty much every Final Fantasy, while having linear objectives, also had side areas to explore, and even gave you stuff like airships and ships to further explore many areas of the game when you wanted to. And no, not just at endgame, almost all early FF gave you forms of transportation to go different places less than halfway through the game. FF6 is a perfect example with airships. You got one well before the first world was even destroyed. If that's about just "wasting my time", fine, then I enjoy wasting my time.



Edited, Jun 4th 2013 11:11am by BartelX
#65 Jun 04 2013 at 9:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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And no, not just at endgame, almost all early FF gave you forms of transportation to go different places less than halfway through the game. FF6 is a perfect example with airships. You got one well before the first world was even destroyed.


And what portion of that world had actual content for you?

People like the illusion of freedom, and XIII was just bad at hiding it.


ADD:

I can draw an analogy to Skyrim.

Everyone considers is to be this epitome of the open-ended game.

"You can do whatever you want!"

But no. You can't. It's a VERY linear game, and your character is an ineffectual nothing on the world. Nothing changes by taking either side in the Civil War, the outcomes of nearly every quest are the same and don't take into account any prior knowledge or actions of your character.

****, you save the world from the dragons and are the LEADER of the Mage's guild and still, your acolytes will say "So, you want to master the arcane arts? You should join the Mage's Guild in Winterhold.."

But, the fact that they hide the rails gives Skyrim gives this identity of an open experience, when really, they just give you the freedom to waste time or change activities.

/rant

Edited, Jun 4th 2013 11:34am by Louiscool

Edited, Jun 4th 2013 11:35am by Louiscool
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#66 Jun 04 2013 at 9:45 AM Rating: Default
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And what portion of that world had actual content for you?

People like the illusion of freedom, and XIII was just bad at hiding it.


Plenty of spots. I'm not going to go through and list all the sidequests available in the game, but if you've played FF6 you know there are plenty of them, many off the beaten path. I just like the idea of not knowing exactly where to go at all times in a game. There are tons of spots in that game and others where the world really opens up and you actually make choices on which direction to go. There are far fewer of those areas in FFXIII, which is why I didn't like it as much.

I understand that the open-world games are still linear. Of course they are, they are following a specific narrative. But having that open world aspect to it made it feel less like I was on a track as I progressed. In a way it is just an illusion of freedom, but it's an illusion that I want in a game, because it's more enjoyable for me. You mentioned FFX, and I agree it was a great game. But it always bothered me that there was no open world and that everything was so incredibly closed off. It was just something I didn't really like.

edit: wow, thanks for defaulting my posts for expressing what I like and don't like in a game. How about instead of just hitting the rate down button, people actually post opinions instead? Or just hide in the shadows and rate down anything you don't agree with... either way. Smiley: rolleyes

Edited, Jun 4th 2013 3:27pm by BartelX
#67 Jun 04 2013 at 9:51 AM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
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And what portion of that world had actual content for you?

People like the illusion of freedom, and XIII was just bad at hiding it.


Plenty of spots. I'm not going to go through and list all the sidequests available in the game, but if you've played FF6 you know there are plenty of them, many off the beaten path. I just like the idea of not knowing exactly where to go at all times in a game. There are tons of spots in that game and others where the world really opens up and you actually make choices on which direction to go. There are far fewer of those areas in FFXIII, which is why I didn't like it as much.

I understand that the open-world games are still linear. Of course they are, they are following a specific narrative. But having that open world aspect to it made it feel less like I was on a track as I progressed. In a way it is just an illusion of freedom, but it's an illusion that I want in a game, because it's more enjoyable for me. You mentioned FFX, and I agree it was a great game. But it always bothered me that there was no open world and that everything was so incredibly closed off. It was just something I didn't really like.


Yeah, I'm not disagreeing really.. I love Skyrim and other open-world games and hated FFX at first when there was no open-world map. I didn't dislike FF13 because it wasn't open world though... there was many things lacking from that game, but what killed it for me were the incredible difficulty spikes when fighting the summons. My gf quit the game after dying to Shiva 8 times, and I almost broke a controller after dying to Alexander 20 times in a row...


But when the game was released, people saw that mini-map that showed you the boundaries and said "TOO LINEAR" on metacritic, etc., when the game still had all that open-worldness near the second half of the game. It just took too long to get there, and was too obviously linear.


Edited, Jun 4th 2013 11:57am by Louiscool
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#68 Jun 04 2013 at 1:44 PM Rating: Default
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LadyVaJedi wrote:
I hope that they keep up with having the next FF games story and player based decisions to the games and see if they can be better at story telling than Bioware/EA


Even a year and a half later, I'm still really upset about the ending of Mass Effect 3. Smiley: glare
#69 Jun 04 2013 at 9:35 PM Rating: Good
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Hatamaz wrote:
LadyVaJedi wrote:
I hope that they keep up with having the next FF games story and player based decisions to the games and see if they can be better at story telling than Bioware/EA


Even a year and a half later, I'm still really upset about the ending of Mass Effect 3. Smiley: glare


The Extended Cut wasn't enough for you? Smiley: lol
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#70 Jun 04 2013 at 10:10 PM Rating: Default
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Atkascha wrote:
Hatamaz wrote:
LadyVaJedi wrote:
I hope that they keep up with having the next FF games story and player based decisions to the games and see if they can be better at story telling than Bioware/EA


Even a year and a half later, I'm still really upset about the ending of Mass Effect 3. Smiley: glare


The Extended Cut wasn't enough for you? Smiley: lol



Their terd shining abilities weren't that great either. The only redeeming quality about that game was the multiplayer. They kept adding and tweaking stuff regularly to keep it as fresh as they could, even though it was only a 4 man romp through 11 waves of enemies over and over again.
#71 Jun 04 2013 at 10:58 PM Rating: Decent
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im dissapointed by this. swapping gear made more items relevent. for tanking, i would swap to haste gear before i casted spells and then would swap back to my tanking gear for efficency. The only thing i didn't like was that swapping gear made you dissapear along with any skill animations trying to be displayed.

I don't mind them removing this feature though because i would like to see the animations without having to blink...but this will only be possible if they add all the stats you needed to use to swap gear in the first place on your items.

I'm sure they are taking this into consideration though and will balance accoringly. I think i'm just accustomed to swapping gear. For maximum effiecency on SMN, i had over 100 macros used for each avatar, for every different combination of spells, attacks, and buffs. So...not swapping would take a load off Smiley: lol.
#72 Jun 04 2013 at 11:08 PM Rating: Good
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Atkascha wrote:
Final Fantasy XIII tried to be innovative...look at how people responded to that.



No FFXIII suffered not because of it's innovation, but it's bad pacing (excused or not), it's lack of exploration (illusionary or not), and bad dialog, which was embarrassingly acted (Vanille). It also had horrible versions of the summons. It also seemed to suffer from "Xbox 360 limitations" and most importantly the fact that SE was planning on expanding this universe with spin-offs.

That focus on the other "future" games, making the Fabula Nova Crystalis universe the focus rather than making ONE game the best they could, makes a lot of sense why (one of the reasons why) FFXIII was the way it was.

The innovation in the battle system was OK, but seemed to be a bit better and more refined, and more fun in FFXIII-2.

But this is already way off topic and whose horse had been reincarnated turned into a tree in a Brazilian forest that was burned, deforested and causes global warming somewhere.


----

The same with FFXIV. When I heard of the new job system in 1.0 it sounded innovative. There were rumors that there were no levels. That weapons would level up and not you. I was thinking of GW2 style of gaining EXP.

It turned out to just be a slight spin on FFXI jobs. And well, we know the rest.

Ironically (yes, I love finding irony in things a bit too much) an innovative FFXIV should borrow from all previous FF mechanics to be innovative. Certain Materia should let you be able to cast spells. A job sphere combined with a Tactics style job system (which it kinda looks like) looks exciting. I'd love for certain jobs to be a combination of 3 or 4 jobs. 15 ARC/15MNK/30LNC could be Ninja, or something. RO kinda had this system, but I digress.

---

Again, innovative is nice and I hope that innovation can be built-in to the game a bit down the road, if it's not there at launch. Really though, all I'm asking for is a solid entry into the series; that FFXIV can stand on it's own, even if it's a bit safe at first.
#73 Jun 05 2013 at 9:05 AM Rating: Decent
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and bad dialog, which was embarrassingly acted (Vanille


Hey! You leave Vanille our of this!

She was a love it or hate it character. Guess where I stand on this Smiley: grin
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#74 Jun 05 2013 at 9:22 AM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
When XIV first came out I was hoping for XI-2. Now, I want XIV.



This.

I've spent a good amount of time in XI and I think I'm finally ready to take my cat tail and move on from it. Challenging Exploration and community are my two highest desires. If XIV gives me that inside a FF world then I couldn't be happier.
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