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MMO's do NOT work in the U.S.Follow

#1 Jun 01 2013 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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http://www.polygon.com/2013/5/30/4381742/take-two-chairman-on-used-games

Tell me your opinions on the comments made by Take-Two president Strauss Zelnick.

I for one tend to believe that his argument is flawed in that there are certainly more than 2 successful MMOs to be released in the U.S. ****, XI is SE's most profitable game of all time.

I'm more interested in hearing your opinions on what this says about the genre as a whole, especially what this says about how developers will approach further MMO production in the future.

I for one believe if XIV ARR and Elder Scrolls Online flop, you can kiss MMOs in the U.S. goodbye.
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#2 Jun 01 2013 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
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But is anyone of the mind that those "unsuccessful" games were good games? I've never played another MMO outside of Final Fantasy, so I can't comment on the quality of titles like Rift, SWTOR, etc. If they were garbage, as FFXIV 1.0 was, it makes sense that they flopped... I don't see why that means the country as a whole is just terrible to create games for. Is it so much to ask for quality titles with plenty of variety and engaging gameplay?
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#3 Jun 01 2013 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
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Parathyroid wrote:
I for one believe if XIV ARR and Elder Scrolls Online flop, you can kiss MMOs in the U.S. goodbye.


That's crazy talk.
#4 Jun 01 2013 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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MMOs work everywhere, it's just a matter of making a good game. 99% of the MMOs that have come out in the last 10 years have been WoW clones looking to bank on that success. Make something original and cool and people will play it.
#5 Jun 01 2013 at 1:39 PM Rating: Decent
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You'll continue to see indie and crowdsourced MMO projects, but probably less triple-A titles.
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#6 Jun 01 2013 at 1:42 PM Rating: Good
FFXI was decent in NA, but just look at JP prime time, you almost have triple the players. Back in the day, you'd have 2000 during NA time, then 6000 at jp prime time. Even now, you can go from 1000 to 3000. There's a market here, but by far, asia is where it's at.
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#7 Jun 01 2013 at 1:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts together. I think I'm just so disappointed in the gaming industry right now. If they can't sell you DLC and in game currency I don't think they're going to bother producing It any more. I think Kachi is partly right that MMOs will come from smaller developers. I would just add that games as we're used to seeing them and the kind of games I feel the majority of this community wants to see will come from there too. I think it will be fans of traditional gaming that continue make traditional games while companies like EA, Take 2, SE and large studios will continue to make games which are thinly disguised vending machines.

I would also say that MMOs still do work in the US. But only the good ones. There's a reason he mentioned wow and eq they're the pillars of their genre. Two of the strongest anyway.

Sorry for rambling



Edited, Jun 1st 2013 12:59pm by LebargeX
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#8 Jun 01 2013 at 2:31 PM Rating: Good
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I've played a few MMO's after XI just trying to recapture that feeling of awe and adventure when I logged in. XI definitely spoiled me. I had some fun moments in those games, like DCUO or Guild Wars 2, but nothing has come close to comparing to XI for me.

I can't really put my finger on what exactly made XI so special to me, and has me looking for that high again. But the reason why I've never stuck with another MMO for very long after XI is it just felt like an empty hollow shell of games with a gimmick to hold you as long as they could. Once that gimmick was no longer fun for me, I just left. There was nothing else to those games that would keep me logging in. Whereas in XI, I would think about things I would want to do and try to accomplish in game that night even while I would be at school or work during the day.

#9 Jun 01 2013 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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You will never get the same feeling you got when playing your very first MMO. That is mostly why most MMO Fail, we go into them with the expectation of feeling this new fresh experience, when in fact, we already know what we are gonna get, so i have to kill x rats and you give me rewards ? Kay! I can craft my own weapons ? Duh!, i should party in order to progress... Kay! Is all the same, we just love to kid ourselves in expecting something new and shiny
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#10 Jun 01 2013 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
Parathyroid wrote:
I for one believe if XIV ARR and Elder Scrolls Online flop, you can kiss MMOs in the U.S. goodbye.


That's crazy talk.


You believe with the recent string of MMO failures, if two MEGA budget MMOs flop, developers/investors will continue to poor millions of dollars into investments that they believe will likely flop?

Now, I do believe small budget MMOs will still hang around, but nothing like the blockbuster type games we see today. I suppose I should have specified as such.
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#11 Jun 01 2013 at 2:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
You will never get the same feeling you got when playing your very first MMO. That is mostly why most MMO Fail, we go into them with the expectation of feeling this new fresh experience, when in fact, we already know what we are gonna get, so i have to kill x rats and you give me rewards ? Kay! I can craft my own weapons ? Duh!, i should party in order to progress... Kay! Is all the same, we just love to kid ourselves in expecting something new and shiny



XI never felt like that to me. I never felt like I encountered that until I tried other games. I'm sure there was a lot of that scenario in XI, but it always felt like fun instead of a chore. I know I'm looking through rose tinted glasses back in my days with XI, but seriously that game was a helluvalot better than any other mmo I've tried since. It always seemed like XI was more about the journey than the destination.

MMO's should give a rich experience and things to do throughout the whole game that are fun and engaging with friends instead of just being a race to cap and gear whoring. That's where I believe most MMO's fail.
#12 Jun 01 2013 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Hatamaz wrote:
Ostia wrote:
You will never get the same feeling you got when playing your very first MMO. That is mostly why most MMO Fail, we go into them with the expectation of feeling this new fresh experience, when in fact, we already know what we are gonna get, so i have to kill x rats and you give me rewards ? Kay! I can craft my own weapons ? Duh!, i should party in order to progress... Kay! Is all the same, we just love to kid ourselves in expecting something new and shiny



XI never felt like that to me. I never felt like I encountered that until I tried other games. I'm sure there was a lot of that scenario in XI, but it always felt like fun instead of a chore. I know I'm looking through rose tinted glasses back in my days with XI, but seriously that game was a helluvalot better than any other mmo I've tried since. It always seemed like XI was more about the journey than the destination.

MMO's should give a rich experience and things to do throughout the whole game that are fun and engaging with friends instead of just being a race to cap and gear whoring. That's where I believe most MMO's fail.


I felt like that in EQ, my first MMO, even the most boring chore that i can use an an example today, i found it to be new and exiting back then...
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#13 Jun 01 2013 at 3:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Americans, at least the younger generation, do not have the patience or attention span to invest in a MMO, especially since most involve the creating and growing of a character. Most want instant gratification. It's a tough sell to convince them to start at level 1 and work their way up to level XX, learning how to use a various character skill set.

Also, the gaming industry has been on a down recently so that could also be a reason so many MMO's are 'failing.'

Or the market is over saturated that people are closely selecting what they're investing in. A certain genre only appeals to so many people. That pool of players is now divided over a plethora of titles, not just a 2 or 3 the way it would have been 8-10 years ago.
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#14 Jun 01 2013 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Americans, at least the younger generation, do not have the patience or attention span to invest in a MMO, especially since most involve the creating and growing of a character. Most want instant gratification.


This is B.S., and your parents said the same thing about your generation.

Edit: Sorry, that came out harsher than intended. What I mean is, every generation thinks that "kids these days--no discipline." It's a known bias that has little to do with the success or failure of MMOs.

Edited, Jun 1st 2013 2:22pm by Kachi
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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#15 Jun 01 2013 at 3:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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MMOs don't work the way that game companies want them to work.

They want five million people to sign up on day one and keep playing for ten years straight.

You can get 500K people to do so with a very good game (FFXI hovered around that for a few years after the peak), but you also have to constantly re-invest your profits back into the game to keep their attention. You also have to have a large amount of content, and a wide variety of it, to keep people around. Shiny graphics, good story, and engaging gameplay aren't enough - you have to constantly release new stuff, too.
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#16 Jun 01 2013 at 3:37 PM Rating: Good
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ACLinjury wrote:
Americans, at least the younger generation, do not have the patience or attention span to invest in a MMO, especially since most involve the creating and growing of a character. Most want instant gratification. It's a tough sell to convince them to start at level 1 and work their way up to level XX, learning how to use a various character skill set.



How did I know this was going to find its way to this thread... Smiley: disappointed
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#17 Jun 01 2013 at 3:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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The last MMOs I've played were fun...while they lasted.

End game for me is, the end. I don't really like raiding in the classical sense.

However if there was a world that I loved to remain in, while being entertained in other ways, I'd keep playing forever.

I think MMOs need to focus less on "end game" and create either more horizontal content or just more content in general.

PvP, and Raids just aren't sufficient for longevity anymore.

Final Fantasy's strength is it's story and world and I'd argue it's novelty. It needs to keep me in that world, without repetitive content.

---

I'm just one person and I don't know why people leave MMOs in general, but one thing WoW did right was ask on a questionnaire when you left stating, "Why did you leave; what things could we improve on." In addition to other things WoW did, I think this was a genius move.

As I've posted in another thread (and I don't want to bring up F2P) but I think the buisiness strategy for current MMOs is, if it doesn't work out, there's always the cash shop. And as I've stated, that's a horrible business model.

Developers and gaming companies need to realize what keeps players rather than creating a revolving door; that will create a loyal player base, longevity and stop MMOs from dying.

---

Look, a lot of Final Fantasy fans are still playing FFVII and it's spin offs 15 years later and the main game was about 12.5 days of playtime (give or take a few days). SE needs to tap into that and developers in general need to tap into what makes games special, rather than making the next big thing.

GW2 and Rift were those fun games, but they didn't have that special feeling. Mechanically they were innovative and fun, but there was no thought into the future. I'd argue that WoW and FFXI didn't think too much about the future, but WoW did a better job at listening to their player base and having the previous experience of creating an online game to do something about those complaints. SE, IMO got by, by name alone and by not overextending themselves in development; remaining a niche game.

---

So in the end, like the success thread, MMO developers need to focus on their strengths and know their player base in addition to creating interesting and involving content. The irony is Indie developers do this naturally; they do it for the love and things fall into place.
Sure, if you want to make lots of money, then sell your game in China/Korea but that doesn't mean a niche MMO in America can't be successful/profitable as well.
#18 Jun 01 2013 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Americans, at least the younger generation, do not have the patience or attention span to invest in a MMO, especially since most involve the creating and growing of a character. Most want instant gratification.


This is B.S., and your parents said the same thing about your generation.

Edit: Sorry, that came out harsher than intended. What I mean is, every generation thinks that "kids these days--no discipline." It's a known bias that has little to do with the success or failure of MMOs.

Edited, Jun 1st 2013 2:22pm by Kachi


Quote:
You don't believe there is any truth to modern technology having an "instant gratification" effect on each subsequent generation?

The last MMOs I've played were fun...while they lasted.

End game for me is, the end. I don't really like raiding in the classical sense.

However if there was a world that I loved to remain in, while being entertained in other ways, I'd keep playing forever.

I think MMOs need to focus less on "end game" and create either more horizontal content or just more content in general.

PvP, and Raids just aren't sufficient for longevity anymore.

Final Fantasy's strength is it's story and world and I'd argue it's novelty. It needs to keep me in that world, without repetitive content.


I'm with you 100% on this theory of what makes a good MMO.

What is evident to me is that the MMO community has two camps... those who prefer something like you've described, and those who prefer a more WoWesque experience, granted they're certainly not mutually exclusive... Nonetheless I believe the differences are distinct enough to make a reasonable observation towards their differences.

Edited, Jun 1st 2013 5:52pm by Parathyroid
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#19 Jun 01 2013 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
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Parathyroid wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Americans, at least the younger generation, do not have the patience or attention span to invest in a MMO, especially since most involve the creating and growing of a character. Most want instant gratification.


This is B.S., and your parents said the same thing about your generation.

Edit: Sorry, that came out harsher than intended. What I mean is, every generation thinks that "kids these days--no discipline." It's a known bias that has little to do with the success or failure of MMOs.

Edited, Jun 1st 2013 2:22pm by Kachi


You don't believe there is any truth to modern technology having an "instant gratification" effect on each subsequent generation?


I do, but that's not the same thing as "lacking patience or attention span." It's contextual. The kids haven't changed--their environment has. And when it's an important social issue, like education, that's concerning, but also not their fault (and generally speaking, has shown that their patience and attention spans are fine). When it's a question of which video game they choose when they plop down in front of a screen, it has nothing to do with patience or attention span, but a desire for stimulation. You can blame MMOs for not being more stimulating (because they're repetitive, boring, and one of the last things you want young people to spend their time on), but you can't blame kids for being discerning consumers of media.

i.e., it's not about "instant" gratification, but the quality of the gratification. MMOs just don't really deliver much in that regard. And who cares?
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#20 Jun 01 2013 at 5:13 PM Rating: Default
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I'm with Kachi on this one. It's all about the stimulation and here in America choice amongst games and other media is galore. The single player games deliver this in high octane short burst where most often there is not a whole lot of padding. I think this is why you see mmos start out with good sized launch numbers. Then as players see the ad nauseum of repeating the same thing over and over. They cut and run seeking the next high before it too withers out.

Picture the Souls series or any single player rpg for that matter. When it first releases all shiny, players can sink from 50-200 hours even though alot of the gameplay is somewhat repetitive. By repetitive I mean that even though there are a few various activities, it's not a huge variety. This is ok for single player games because it has an end point. Players can then look forward to a sequel in the future.An mmo asks you to spend hundreds or thousands of hours releasing new zones and sometimes new gameplay. But for the most part most of the things you do repeat in a different skin throughout the process.

I remember when JTL released on Galaxies. It was a fresh new experience different from the core game but still existed in same game. Now by the time it released due to the core game not able to keep players from bleeding, it released a season to late to turn things around. But that makes me think about if an mmo offered different types of gameplay bug free and tested on a consistent basis. Would that mmo be the one that probably would not usurp WoW but be the second runner up on a long term basis. I watched the forums leading up to SWTOR release and there was this one batch of people just whaling on the space on rails and asking for something on par with JTL or Halo reach space combat. Now SWTOR failed because they initially because they didn't have a lot to do at endgame. Which is the same issue GW2 ran into months after launch. Now more players are returning to those games btw.

MMOs are not just competing against other mmos but also Single player rpgs, clubs, amusement parks, tv, movies, resorts, and all other stimulus. Which leads me to believe there will never be another WoW in terms of playerbase. If a game can hold 500k-2mil steady players. They are doing a good job in today's world when the choices are infinite.
#21 Jun 01 2013 at 5:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Wouldn't all games be considered repetitive?
A sports title is redundant, especially if you do any season or career mode and shooters will usually have the same maps, enemies, and spawn points.

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#22 Jun 01 2013 at 6:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Actually, you raise an interesting point: many modern sports games are significantly more complex and strategic than the battles in your average MMO, and they combine that with reflexive play. Add the competitive element of testing your skills against another player, and a lot of novelty and exploration is available within the abstraction of the game.

MMOs have pretty poorly designed gameplay with very shallow play.

All things are repetitive if you reduce them into a simple description, but psychologically, no, not all things are repetitive. Some things are interesting by virtue of their complexity, while others are easily understood, and as a result, boring.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#23 Jun 01 2013 at 7:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I think most people are overlooking the painfully obvious here. I'm not gonna go all back in my day but todays gamers/younger generation play entirely different than most of us did. This is the age of Call of Duty, Halo and Assassins Creed. Younger gamers today play in a way different style. MMO's in general are not going to appeal to them or if they do not for long. On the other end of the spectrum the gamers out there that do/would like games with a need to build your way up are getting older, have gotten married and or have jobs something that's pretty counter productive to the time commitment MMO's require if you ever want to "max out". I won't say MMO's are dead in the US but I think it's going to become a very niche market that won't be kind to a lot of competition. (In the western world)
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#24 Jun 01 2013 at 7:58 PM Rating: Decent
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They keep flopping because they're mostly terrible.
#25 Jun 01 2013 at 8:06 PM Rating: Good
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Dizmo wrote:
They keep flopping because they're mostly terrible.

And take two has decided that rather than try to make something better they are just going to schlep more crap to Asia. Way to innovate Smiley: oyvey
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#26 Jun 01 2013 at 8:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Valeforelacky wrote:
I think most people are overlooking the painfully obvious here. I'm not gonna go all back in my day but todays gamers/younger generation play entirely different than most of us did. This is the age of Call of Duty, Halo and Assassins Creed. Younger gamers today play in a way different style. MMO's in general are not going to appeal to them or if they do not for long. On the other end of the spectrum the gamers out there that do/would like games with a need to build your way up are getting older, have gotten married and or have jobs something that's pretty counter productive to the time commitment MMO's require if you ever want to "max out". I won't say MMO's are dead in the US but I think it's going to become a very niche market that won't be kind to a lot of competition. (In the western world)


This is definitely part of it. You can't go for years without making an exceptional Final Fantasy title and then expect that in those years, you've acquired a new generation of gamers who identify with the Final Fantasy series, or even JRPGs in general. Lots of people get into MMOs from their enjoyment of RPGs, but RPGs, especially quality ones, are in far shorter supply than they used to, especially relative to the total market share.

Not just young people, but all people, will look at advertisement for two seconds before answering the question, "Does this look like it's something for me? Something I would enjoy?" And if the pattern recognition software that's been growing in their brain doesn't ring the bells, then they're not going to give it a second look. This is how you create a brand--you nurture it by hooking its attention and then continuing to feed it. At this point, Final Fantasy's fans are malnourished.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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