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Battle System changes interview and 700k beta testersFollow

#1 Jun 12 2013 at 4:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CiacjEYym1-aaS9rhRTYOXvT8r7ajlEvxCJmJgviR28/preview?pli=1&sle=true

Very interesting interview on the changes to the battle system which has been the cause of lots of consternation (Ostia - I'm looking at you :-)

Also, apparently there will be over 700,000 beta testers in B3. That seems massive to me given the number of people in version 1.0.

(hope the link works as I fail at the internet)


Edit: Stolen from Tannlore in the official beta forums.
Edit: Also, thank you to the person doing the translation who chooses not to be named.

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 6:34pm by HallieXIV

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 8:32pm by HallieXIV
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#2 Jun 12 2013 at 4:47 PM Rating: Good
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I was right, combat sucked, or they would not have changed it.... Smiley: lol
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#3 Jun 12 2013 at 4:49 PM Rating: Excellent
Improving mechanics is what beta is for!
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#4 Jun 12 2013 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
I was right, combat sucked, or they would not have changed it.... Smiley: lol

Lol yeah glad they changed it geez.. Glad it was in beta and not release. Actually listening a little bit to feedback.. Also woooah 700,000 testers?? ARR is going to be the new come back kid :D

I do have one question though.. Why is the date 6/13/2013.. Isnt today the 12th? Yoshi is still here in the U.S right? Or is it a Japan time thing

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 6:52pm by SaitoMishima
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#5 Jun 12 2013 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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Speaking of that, FFXIV is going to have a Battle Recap portion for one hour at Square-Enix Presents in 10 minutes.

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#6 Jun 12 2013 at 4:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well dependin on how they estimate that, I may be 10 of them lol....
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#7 Jun 12 2013 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
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SaitoMishima wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I was right, combat sucked, or they would not have changed it.... Smiley: lol

Lol yeah glad they changed it geez.. Glad it was in beta and not release. Actually listening a little bit to feedback.. Also woooah 700,000 testers?? ARR is going to be the new come back kid :D

I do have one question though.. Why is the date 6/13/2013.. Isnt today the 12th? Yoshi is still here in the U.S right? Or is it a Japan time thing

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 6:52pm by SaitoMishima


Its the 13th where I am!
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#8 Jun 12 2013 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
I was right, combat sucked, or they would not have changed it.... Smiley: lol


Touche my friend.

Either that or they always planned to change it and phase 1 was just for server stress testing.....I'm sure I read that somewhere.
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#9 Jun 12 2013 at 4:57 PM Rating: Default
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HallieXIV wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I was right, combat sucked, or they would not have changed it.... Smiley: lol


Touche my friend.

Either that or they always planned to change it and phase 1 was just for server stress testing.....I'm sure I read that somewhere.


Nah! Think about it, this is now the 7th time yoshi has had combat revamped, or adjusted.... THAT IS 7 TIMES! IN 2 YEARS!

They did planned for combat to be as it was in B1 and B2, but they did not planned to get the outcry they did for it, the only reason the NDA was not lifted up until now, was because of combat, why do you think they did a partial NDA lift, that people could review, but cunningly made it so that you could not talk about combat, only the starting city and the character creator..... Hmmm!

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#10 Jun 12 2013 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
HallieXIV wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I was right, combat sucked, or they would not have changed it.... Smiley: lol


Touche my friend.

Either that or they always planned to change it and phase 1 was just for server stress testing.....I'm sure I read that somewhere.


Nah! Think about it, this is now the 7th time yoshi has had combat revamped, or adjusted.... THAT IS 7 TIMES! IN 2 YEARS!

They did planned for combat to be as it was in B1 and B2, but they did not planned to get the outcry they did for it, the only reason the NDA was not lifted up until now, was because of combat, why do you think they did a partial NDA lift, that people could review, but cunningly made it so that you could not talk about combat, only the starting city and the character creator..... Hmmm!



If this is true (IF), then the purpose of holding a beta, to seek feedback and improve and enhance the game for all has served its purpose.

I agreed with you that combat needed a bit of a revamp but probably did not think it was as bas as you did. I also disagreed with your suggestion the mashing the same skill over and over again was more effective than mixing it up. All that said, the article referred to above does seem to deal with a lot of noted issues in the battle system and I am looking forward to testing in B3 (if possible given the level restriction of 35 and the absence of content post 35).
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#11 Jun 12 2013 at 5:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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This stuff sounds amazing.
Monk sounds like it'll play like a Rift DPS.
Drg sounds like a movement based powerhouse.
The mages sound like truly innovative ideas.

Yoshida is like the nerd whisperer.
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#12Ostia, Posted: Jun 12 2013 at 5:33 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Using the same skill over and over was as effective as mixing it up, everything died to fast to make a difference, once we can use recount and stuff like that, we might see a slim difference in DPS output, but as far as effective combat goes, in beta 1-2, there was little to no difference in either playing balls out, or playing 1-2-1-2/1-1-1-1-1-1.
#13 Jun 12 2013 at 5:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yet I'm pretty sure you said several times they would never change things since it was so close to launch. You can't be happy about anything can you Ostia?
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#14 Jun 12 2013 at 6:01 PM Rating: Default
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The combat did kinda suck. It felt like the mobs were easy and I didn't like how when you got a spell that was more powerful than the previous one it would be the only one used pretty much.
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#15 Jun 12 2013 at 6:02 PM Rating: Default
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Wint wrote:
Yet I'm pretty sure you said several times they would never change things since it was so close to launch. You can't be happy about anything can you Ostia?


I am pretty sure i did not :) But you are welcome to find that Quote Smiley: lol Also who said i was not happy ? Just because i point out that in beta phase 1-2 there was little to no advantage in holding a rotation over not holding one, does not mean i am unhappy, stop being a fanboy wint.
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#16 Jun 12 2013 at 6:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Keep telling me what to do and see how far that gets you.

I don't think I'm being a fanboy, they're listening to feedback and making changes yet you can't help but bash them every post you make.
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#17 Jun 12 2013 at 6:05 PM Rating: Default
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/hides behind the chair


This reminds me of when Marty called Beauford "Mad Dog". Everyone in the bar just cleared out.

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 8:22pm by electromagnet83
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#18 Jun 12 2013 at 6:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wint wrote:
Keep telling me what to do and see how far that gets you.

I don't think I'm being a fanboy, they're listening to feedback and making changes yet you can't help but bash them every post you make.


I'll say they're responding to feedback. TONS of response. I'll never say that SE doesn't listen anymore.
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#19 Jun 12 2013 at 6:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
Wint wrote:
Yet I'm pretty sure you said several times they would never change things since it was so close to launch. You can't be happy about anything can you Ostia?


I am pretty sure i did not :) But you are welcome to find that Quote Smiley: lol Also who said i was not happy ? Just because i point out that in beta phase 1-2 there was little to no advantage in holding a rotation over not holding one, does not mean i am unhappy, stop being a fanboy wint.

While I agree with you about combat.. I am positive you were the one who said in beta there would not be any drastic changes.
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#20 Jun 12 2013 at 6:26 PM Rating: Good
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From the very start of Beta 1, there was a comment in the beta notes put up by the devs that phase 1 was for server stress testing and phase 2 was for controller testing.

It was also reasonably clearly put that the battle system would be subject to constant revision up to phase 3 when it would be close to final release version.

The reason companies have NDA's is because cant help themselves but ***** about things that they dont like even if it is just in beta.

I actaully agree with much of Ostia's views on combat in phase 1 and 2, but was always confident it would be fixed. Lets hope it was though as I have indicated previously, we may not know in phase 3 as there is still a level limit and no high level content.
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#21 Jun 12 2013 at 6:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Regardless of how combat was, it sounds as though this is a beta test in the truest sense.

A complete 180 from 1.0 for sure; where our complaints were met with a nebulous "it will be fixed."

---

Truth be told a lot of MMOs do start out a bit slow in the combat department in order for you to get acclimated with the system. Usually you're too busy to notice, because you're enjoying the world and looking forward to later abilities anyway.

It does sound, though, that there needed to be work with the GCD and it looks as though SE is taking it to heart. Which makes me hopeful in it's own right.

MNK actually sounds fun now with the combos and all of that jazz.
#22 Jun 12 2013 at 7:02 PM Rating: Good
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Phase 3 is going to need incredible input for balancing. What will be a monk's dps in a stand and fight situation? Will they be gimp in fights that require them to break their rotations often? How long and what is the payout of stacking elements on mage? Can it be zerged with a bunch of refresh and lead to OP production? Is the new war a bad tank and a bad dd, or does it make pld a waste of a slot? Does it make drg and monk liability squish dds?

You really can't balance these new concepts untill light party and raid settings. They sound very complex to balance.

Expect at least one job to be complely game breaking at first.

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 9:03pm by benjjjamin

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 9:05pm by benjjjamin
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#23 Jun 12 2013 at 7:18 PM Rating: Decent
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SaitoMishima wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Wint wrote:
Yet I'm pretty sure you said several times they would never change things since it was so close to launch. You can't be happy about anything can you Ostia?


I am pretty sure i did not :) But you are welcome to find that Quote Smiley: lol Also who said i was not happy ? Just because i point out that in beta phase 1-2 there was little to no advantage in holding a rotation over not holding one, does not mean i am unhappy, stop being a fanboy wint.

While I agree with you about combat.. I am positive you were the one who said in beta there would not be any drastic changes.


Drastic change would be making ARR combat system akin to Tera or GW2. Making some abilities not be tied down to your entire GCD is not a drastic change, is pretty simple, nor is increasing or lowering cool downs, what i meant by drastic changes, is that you are not gonna play beta phase 4, and then on release you are not gonna recognize the Game.

Also Wint i am not unhappy nor i am bashing SE, i think what they did with the NDA was very cleaver and wise to do, and so is addressing the combat system, i have not bash them for that, i only said that i am not sure if unlocking some abilities from the global cool down, will fixed it the way people want, since it will mean that now you have more abilitys ready to spam. Now if they address the encounters, and make them harder, then i am all for that, for i think that was more of the problem and not so much having GCD.
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#24 Jun 12 2013 at 7:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fair enough, let's see what phase 3 has in store for us.
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#25 Jun 12 2013 at 8:12 PM Rating: Good
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Say what you will about FFXI's battle system but it really did take some honest to goodness skill to be good at.
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#26 Jun 12 2013 at 8:14 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree on the idea that the core of the battle system's probems lie with the monsters, not the classes. I would like to see more depth introduced more quickily for each class, as well as a bit more of the complexity returned for Lancer/Dragoon. But I don' think that there was a missing depth on behalf of the classes, so much as the fact that such depth wasn't needed.

There was a significant advantage to using Heavy Thrust's debuff. (About 10% base damage increase, before Potency multipliers) But it just didn't matter when the monster died quickly anyways.That sort of difference would shine like crazy in longer fights, not so much in the short ones we were experiencing.

The game is quite fun, I'm ready for it to be out. That said, it did need a lot of tuning at phase 2. But, you know what. I'm ok with them still needing to tune the battle system by release. There's enough of that core energy there that makes it ok for a Vanilla game. That said, I'm confident that the improvements for Beta 3 will be a good step forward.

electromagnet83 wrote:
Say what you will about FFXI's battle system but it really did take some honest to goodness skill to be good at.


I'll disagree with you there. All it took was Windower and decent scripting. Everything else is gear and pattern recognition. It wasn't so much skill as preparedness. FFXIV 1.x had more skill requirement than FFXI ever did, and I see that FFXIV is gearing up to be similar, though the lower levels seemed to have been slow on the learning curve. I would have preferred getting more toys sooner for the players to learn with.

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 10:16pm by Hyrist
#27 Jun 12 2013 at 8:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
SaitoMishima wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Wint wrote:
Yet I'm pretty sure you said several times they would never change things since it was so close to launch. You can't be happy about anything can you Ostia?


I am pretty sure i did not :) But you are welcome to find that Quote Smiley: lol Also who said i was not happy ? Just because i point out that in beta phase 1-2 there was little to no advantage in holding a rotation over not holding one, does not mean i am unhappy, stop being a fanboy wint.

While I agree with you about combat.. I am positive you were the one who said in beta there would not be any drastic changes.


Drastic change would be making ARR combat system akin to Tera or GW2. Making some abilities not be tied down to your entire GCD is not a drastic change, is pretty simple, nor is increasing or lowering cool downs, what i meant by drastic changes, is that you are not gonna play beta phase 4, and then on release you are not gonna recognize the Game.

Also Wint i am not unhappy nor i am bashing SE, i think what they did with the NDA was very cleaver and wise to do, and so is addressing the combat system, i have not bash them for that, i only said that i am not sure if unlocking some abilities from the global cool down, will fixed it the way people want, since it will mean that now you have more abilitys ready to spam. Now if they address the encounters, and make them harder, then i am all for that, for i think that was more of the problem and not so much having GCD.


About a week ago, Ostia and I had a debate about whether BLM and WHM would be the same as every other class. I would like to reference that discussion and the comment above regarding the only change being exclusion of some abilities from the GCD.

First up, the changes described in the link show BLM to be quite different where spamming one spell is certainly not going to help. Whilst I am not completely clear on how this is going to work, spamming the same skill will cost significant MP and so will not be the best way to play the class.

Regarding changes, you omit to recognise the chaining referenced for PUG, the positioning referenced for other jobs and the wholesale changes to Mob AI and the use of weapon skills, the dynamic way we will be expected to move around to avoid attacks etc.

Whilst none of this is ground breaking in itself - it is completely different to the combat in alpha, beta 1 and beta 2. It shows a progression in the right direction. Right now surely that can only be a good thing even if it is not perfect in beta 3.

MMO's do tend to get better with time as things are balanced but these changes are fairly wholesale from a very simplified base.
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#28 Jun 12 2013 at 8:20 PM Rating: Good
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If it's like any other well designed game, there will be optimal ability rotations and priorities and no one will be spamming anything. If not, oh well I'll play dress up and hunt people in contested territories.
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#29 Jun 12 2013 at 8:35 PM Rating: Good
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If you watched the ps3 ui video just posted today they mention rotations and positions for dmg . It seems way more fun than spam 1,1,1,1,3,1. Gotta watch Ur camera angles where the mob is how Ur timers are what buff you need if you need mana, and so on . I can't wait!!!

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 10:36pm by silverhope
#30 Jun 12 2013 at 8:37 PM Rating: Default
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Hyrist wrote:
I agree on the idea that the core of the battle system's probems lie with the monsters, not the classes. I would like to see more depth introduced more quickily for each class, as well as a bit more of the complexity returned for Lancer/Dragoon. But I don' think that there was a missing depth on behalf of the classes, so much as the fact that such depth wasn't needed.

There was a significant advantage to using Heavy Thrust's debuff. (About 10% base damage increase, before Potency multipliers) But it just didn't matter when the monster died quickly anyways.That sort of difference would shine like crazy in longer fights, not so much in the short ones we were experiencing.

The game is quite fun, I'm ready for it to be out. That said, it did need a lot of tuning at phase 2. But, you know what. I'm ok with them still needing to tune the battle system by release. There's enough of that core energy there that makes it ok for a Vanilla game. That said, I'm confident that the improvements for Beta 3 will be a good step forward.

electromagnet83 wrote:
Say what you will about FFXI's battle system but it really did take some honest to goodness skill to be good at.


I'll disagree with you there. All it took was Windower and decent scripting. Everything else is gear and pattern recognition. It wasn't so much skill as preparedness. FFXIV 1.x had more skill requirement than FFXI ever did, and I see that FFXIV is gearing up to be similar, though the lower levels seemed to have been slow on the learning curve. I would have preferred getting more toys sooner for the players to learn with.

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 10:16pm by Hyrist


Okay, using a 3rd party program that at one time (or perhaps even still) would get you banned from the game does not qualify as "easy" combat. That's called cheating. The skill required to battle a monster was that you had to time your special attacks to not break your auto-attack, use enfeebling spells at the right time and to keep the monster slow and/or blind, tossing a potion in if necessary, and ultimately defeating the "mini-boss" of a standard mob. FFXIV requires I press "1" over and over until he's dead. Therefore if talking purely about difficulty, FFXI was more difficult than FFXIV.




Edited, Jun 12th 2013 10:42pm by electromagnet83
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#31 Jun 12 2013 at 8:44 PM Rating: Decent
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electromagnet83 wrote:
Say what you will about FFXI's battle system but it really did take some honest to goodness skill to be good at.


No, it didn't.

Do you know how to make gear macro swaps for weaponskills/job abilities/spells? If yes, then grats, you've mastered combat in FFXI. You auto-attacked for TP, then expended it. Occassionally you'll use an ability for a boost that's on a 2/3/5 minute timer but other than that it's all about minimizing your TP cycle (through Store TP and haste/DW Delay) and maximizing damage on a weaponskill.

What's so hard about that?

electromagnet83 wrote:
Okay, using a 3rd party program that at one time (or perhaps even still) would get you banned from the game does not qualify as "easy" combat. That's called cheating. The skill required to battle a monster was that you had to time your special attacks to not break your auto-attack, use enfeebling spells at the right time and to keep the monster slow and/or blind, tossing a potion in if necessary, and ultimately defeating the "mini-boss" of a standard mob. FFXIV requires I press "1" over and over until he's dead. Therefore if talking purely about difficulty, FFXI was more difficult than FFXIV.


No, you're trying to look at it through nostalgia. FFXI's got the most simplistic combat system I've ever seen in an MMO; it's brain-dead simple to pickup.

Figuring out the optimal gearsets for an ability/TP/etc.? That's where the work comes in, but it's been done through spreadsheets for quite a while now. So it's plug-and-match with what you have. That's hardly "skillful".

P.S. Attempting to not interrupt your autoattack was a delusion: it doesn't matter when you timed the ability the game re-calculated your delay no matter when you used it.


Edited, Jun 12th 2013 10:48pm by Viertel
#32 Jun 12 2013 at 8:44 PM Rating: Default
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HallieXIV wrote:
Ostia wrote:
SaitoMishima wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Wint wrote:
Yet I'm pretty sure you said several times they would never change things since it was so close to launch. You can't be happy about anything can you Ostia?


I am pretty sure i did not :) But you are welcome to find that Quote Smiley: lol Also who said i was not happy ? Just because i point out that in beta phase 1-2 there was little to no advantage in holding a rotation over not holding one, does not mean i am unhappy, stop being a fanboy wint.

While I agree with you about combat.. I am positive you were the one who said in beta there would not be any drastic changes.


Drastic change would be making ARR combat system akin to Tera or GW2. Making some abilities not be tied down to your entire GCD is not a drastic change, is pretty simple, nor is increasing or lowering cool downs, what i meant by drastic changes, is that you are not gonna play beta phase 4, and then on release you are not gonna recognize the Game.

Also Wint i am not unhappy nor i am bashing SE, i think what they did with the NDA was very cleaver and wise to do, and so is addressing the combat system, i have not bash them for that, i only said that i am not sure if unlocking some abilities from the global cool down, will fixed it the way people want, since it will mean that now you have more abilitys ready to spam. Now if they address the encounters, and make them harder, then i am all for that, for i think that was more of the problem and not so much having GCD.


About a week ago, Ostia and I had a debate about whether BLM and WHM would be the same as every other class. I would like to reference that discussion and the comment above regarding the only change being exclusion of some abilities from the GCD.

First up, the changes described in the link show BLM to be quite different where spamming one spell is certainly not going to help. Whilst I am not completely clear on how this is going to work, spamming the same skill will cost significant MP and so will not be the best way to play the class.

Regarding changes, you omit to recognise the chaining referenced for PUG, the positioning referenced for other jobs and the wholesale changes to Mob AI and the use of weapon skills, the dynamic way we will be expected to move around to avoid attacks etc.

Whilst none of this is ground breaking in itself - it is completely different to the combat in alpha, beta 1 and beta 2. It shows a progression in the right direction. Right now surely that can only be a good thing even if it is not perfect in beta 3.

MMO's do tend to get better with time as things are balanced but these changes are fairly wholesale from a very simplified base.


Positioning has been a part of the game, making it more pronounced is not a drastic change, moving away or sideways from attacks is not a drastic change, that was already in practice in 1.0 and in Beta. You are arguing for the sake of arguing, i never said the changes where bad, i only pointed out that if the combat was so superb in B2 as many posters around here portrayed, they would not have changed it :) Is the game moving in the right direction ? We don't know, we only know that they are addressing the issues brought to them, and that on itself is good, now it depends on the changes they implement in the End.

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#33 Jun 12 2013 at 8:48 PM Rating: Default
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Not arguing Ostia - just disagreeing with you.

No point "arguing" over things which are clearly a matter of opinion.

I could have lived with the game with the phase 2 combat mechanics. I didn't think it was perfect but I could have lived with it. Based on what you have been saying (writing) for several weeks, you couldn't live with it. Hopefully the changes are enough to get you enthused about the release of the game and excited to play on release.

At the end of the day, those of us planning to play are hoping for a thriving and ongoing community which is more likely the more people play.

If you don't like phase 2 then I might start agreeing with you that we are getting too close to release for their to be major change after this.
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#34 Jun 12 2013 at 9:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Wint wrote:
Yet I'm pretty sure you said several times they would never change things since it was so close to launch. You can't be happy about anything can you Ostia?


Can I be happy on Ostia's behalf? No? Well I guess it may be uncertainty through translation keeping it a bit foggy in some spots, but I'll go ahead and call it 'slightly less cautious optimism' Smiley: tongue

The combat system has been adjusted so many times in FFXIV that I think they may have approached or even broken the record. We all know that this is what alpha/beta testing is for, but lets be honest with ourselves here; most games have a solid enough idea of what combat will be like that far(initial testing) through production that they will only need to tweak what they already implemented. With XIV on the other hand, it seemed as though they were testing the statistical impossibility of how many times they could revamp the battle system without actually improving it.

The coming changes sound great, but the reason I'm only slightly less cautious with my optimism stems more from the logistics of making yet another (seemingly) drastic change to systems that are normally in place before other proverbial pieces fit into the puzzle. I do hope they can pull it off and if they do, it's just another stripe on Yoshi's savior of FF jacket.

electromagnet83 wrote:
Say what you will about FFXI's battle system but it really did take some honest to goodness skill to be good at.


/ja "Sarcasm" <me>
I agree. The slightest semblance of an attention span qualifies as skill. Smiley: disappointed




Edited, Jun 12th 2013 11:07pm by FilthMcNasty
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#35 Jun 12 2013 at 9:10 PM Rating: Decent
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electromagnet83 wrote:


Okay, using a 3rd party program that at one time (or perhaps even still) would get you banned from the game does not qualify as "easy" combat. That's called cheating. The skill required to battle a monster was that you had to time your special attacks to not break your auto-attack, use enfeebling spells at the right time and to keep the monster slow and/or blind, tossing a potion in if necessary, and ultimately defeating the "mini-boss" of a standard mob. FFXIV requires I press "1" over and over until he's dead. Therefore if talking purely about difficulty, FFXI was more difficult than FFXIV.


You say that but the fact is that nobody has every been publicly banned from windower and it is the most widely used program in the PC community. to the point where it's almost unheard of not to use it at this point.

I'd rather not waste my time arguing against the rose tint of an 11 year old game. Skill did not exist in FFXI. Preparedness did.

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 11:10pm by Hyrist
#36 Jun 12 2013 at 9:24 PM Rating: Good
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electromagnet83 wrote:
Say what you will about FFXI's battle system but it really did take some honest to goodness skill to be good at.


Certain classes took skill... such as mastering a thf or rdm, but most of them were not that difficult to master. Having never played a blm at all, I was able to step into my friends 75 blm and be in the stun rotation at cerberus, fight tiamat (while being the only blm NOT constantly getting hit by his AoE while all the other mages did), solo flans, etc. It wasn't tough in the slightest.

The tough part about FFXI was some of the battles themselves, with mechanics where one slight little mess up could easily spell a wipe... such as missing a fulmination on khimaira, a gates of hades on cerberus (or more accurately, not erasing the DoT after it), or even just managing your hate as a DD. The combat itself really wasn't that difficult.
#37 Jun 12 2013 at 9:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't know if FFXI required skill, but it certainly required your attention and effort.

Aside from gear and gear swapping, you definitely did have to do a lot of micromanaging and pay attention to different things, and certain activities could be very hectic. It was definitely not easy.

You guys want to revise history by saying that the only thing needed to be good at FFXI was gear swapping, and that's just not true. It took effort. You can play ARR high, drunk, with your eyes closed, holding the controller with your feet (in phase 2).

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 11:28pm by Killua125
#38 Jun 12 2013 at 10:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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If paying attention is a skill, then being a healer in FFXI took skill. At least, being a good one did.

But these days there are so many Windower add-ons and plugins that you just need to configure and set it up and your WHM will automatically heal, cure status ailments, and rest for MP. Difference is a cure-bot may not be able to make the split second judgment calls needed for end game fights - cure the MNK who is down to 150 hp or the tank who is down to 300? Cure bot says cure the one with lowest HP. Good WHM says cure the tank because he's the one most likely to take the next hit, and his cure IV won't max him out.

WHM wasn't hard if you paid attention. But too many MMO players have the attention span of kittens.
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#39 Jun 12 2013 at 10:25 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
Say what you will about FFXI's battle system but it really did take some honest to goodness skill to be good at.


Certain classes took skill... such as mastering a thf or rdm, but most of them were not that difficult to master. Having never played a blm at all, I was able to step into my friends 75 blm and be in the stun rotation at cerberus, fight tiamat (while being the only blm NOT constantly getting hit by his AoE while all the other mages did), solo flans, etc. It wasn't tough in the slightest.

The tough part about FFXI was some of the battles themselves, with mechanics where one slight little mess up could easily spell a wipe... such as missing a fulmination on khimaira, a gates of hades on cerberus (or more accurately, not erasing the DoT after it), or even just managing your hate as a DD. The combat itself really wasn't that difficult.


I'll agree that FFXI required your attention. I should know being a dedicated Red mage from NA release to shortly after Abyssea finished up.

I'd say that FFXI was more unforgiving than requiring skill. The windows for most of the stun rotations were sizeable, the mechanics of the fights themselves were very simple to understand, aside from Absolute Virtue and Pandamonium Warden, which players never really understood and just powerhoused their way through it once the power creep had surpassed them.

But you could say that 1.xx's system was just as unforgiving. Diddn't Kill all the Moggles, King Mob Wiped you.

Two Nails still up? Ifirit wiped you.

Failed to protect the pillars in Garuda fight? You were a dead adventurer.

You guys want to complain that 'omg ARR is such a snooze'. I'd question how far you got into Betas 1 and 2. The first Dungeon? The Second?

First dungeon if you diddn't pay attention to hate ordering, you diddn't even get to the boss fight before wiping once, due to the large fight on the last rosary pickup. The boss fight itself? Periodicly immune to damage until you realize there was an inconspicuous imp responsible for the shielding.

Toto Rak? If you did not attack the tail and kill it, you wiped to poison damage. That was pre level 30 fight. At level 30 in FFXI you faced the same exact boss regardless of your affiliation in FFXI. An Airman, and a Dark Dragon. (which you could take on as a part of level 23s and win). It was a straight out tank and spank so long as you weren't a multiple of level 5.

I will reiterate what the problem was for Phase 1 and 2. The monsters were alpha holdovers. Simple as that. They're easy, and that's cheapening the depth o the combat. Yoshida says he's adjusting it, but I doubt it'll ever be FFXI hard in the field. Boss fights, however, I fully expect to be more fun than FFXI. 1.xx's were pretty incredible, especially the later ones. ARR's early fights are already showing some of that luster, albeit, toned down for lower level groups.
#40 Jun 12 2013 at 10:32 PM Rating: Decent
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XI was the easiest mmo to battle in I've seen. Like others have said, the difficulty was all in stat gathering prior to battle. I think you'll have a hard time finding many who agree that skill made a ffxi player. There just wasn't enough executable points, even on healer and certainly not on meleers, to call it that.

I learned to be a raid healer on a 75 whm in like 10minutes. As a career war thf...
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#41 Jun 12 2013 at 10:43 PM Rating: Good
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And to be honest, having awareness over 'skill' (which is really hard to define in an RPG genere anyways) is usually a better thing anyways.

I really want to cite United We Stand as my favorite 1.xx fight in the game, it really did bring out what I like the most in a party encounter: Multiple objectives.

The primary objective was to destroy the transmitter, but it's shielded, and guarded by a powerful Mech boss. The Mech boss, however, could be kited, but it would switch hate onto the person with the most hate on the shield generators when the generator was destroyed.

Additionally, enemy reinforcements keep pouring through the door to keep you needing to fight enemies constantly.

There was multiple solutions to how to do it. Fighting the Mech full on and just take care of the adds on the way, and then focus on the generators with only the soldiers to worry about. or rotate kiting the Mech and holding off the soldiers while whittling the transmitter down.

It was multifaceted, required both thinking and reaction, and was variable depending on your party set up. And it was sooo much fun to do.

I really do hope they add more objective based fights in the storyline like that one.
#42 Jun 12 2013 at 10:48 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
If paying attention is a skill, then being a healer in FFXI took skill. At least, being a good one did.

But these days there are so many Windower add-ons and plugins that you just need to configure and set it up and your WHM will automatically heal, cure status ailments, and rest for MP. Difference is a cure-bot may not be able to make the split second judgment calls needed for end game fights - cure the MNK who is down to 150 hp or the tank who is down to 300? Cure bot says cure the one with lowest HP. Good WHM says cure the tank because he's the one most likely to take the next hit, and his cure IV won't max him out.

WHM wasn't hard if you paid attention. But too many MMO players have the attention span of kittens.


Agreed Catwho,

Except that a WHM would also have to be paying attention to the hate mechanics at the time of hitting the cure button because the MNK might have started kicking out some big damage and pulled the hate off of the mob making him the likely target of the next attack.

In FFXI, I think playing WHM well was quite difficult. For most of the rest, it was a case of pay attention, switch gear and spam the best rotations. A WHM had to be badass. We had no pretty "hate" arrows in my day telling me who pulled the most hate...grumbles.....get off my lawn......
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#43 Jun 12 2013 at 11:02 PM Rating: Good
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Ok, I'll concede on multitasking.

Haste Rotation, Refresh Rotation, Regen Rotation, Cures, maintaining Debuffs, swapping, and, if you were good enough, yes, even Meleeing and Skillchaining (and bursting if you had the free MP.)

There was lots of multitasking to be done on RDM. That's why I loved the class so much. You were always active in some way in a game that was fairly passive otherwise.

FFXIV's core gameplay isn't passive, however. Less micromanagement of gear, more micromanagement of actions your character takes. Same level of awareness is needed to preform well, but the game was more forgiving of mistakes or poor playing in the earlier beta phases. Let's see if that changes up.
#44 Jun 12 2013 at 11:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Just to clear up my statement before thread spirals into 'XI takes mad skillz yoz' banter...

There were many skilled players in XI. I am not, nor do I believe anyone would disagree with that. All I'm saying is that under normal circumstances, the only thing required to complete content successfully was paying attention and/or having the ability to read.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#45 Jun 12 2013 at 11:30 PM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
And to be honest, having awareness over 'skill' (which is really hard to define in an RPG genere anyways) is usually a better thing anyways.

I really want to cite United We Stand as my favorite 1.xx fight in the game, it really did bring out what I like the most in a party encounter: Multiple objectives.

The primary objective was to destroy the transmitter, but it's shielded, and guarded by a powerful Mech boss. The Mech boss, however, could be kited, but it would switch hate onto the person with the most hate on the shield generators when the generator was destroyed.

Additionally, enemy reinforcements keep pouring through the door to keep you needing to fight enemies constantly.

There was multiple solutions to how to do it. Fighting the Mech full on and just take care of the adds on the way, and then focus on the generators with only the soldiers to worry about. or rotate kiting the Mech and holding off the soldiers while whittling the transmitter down.

It was multifaceted, required both thinking and reaction, and was variable depending on your party set up. And it was sooo much fun to do.

I really do hope they add more objective based fights in the storyline like that one.


BLEH! You can keep your United We Stand, lol. I'd rather take on To Kill a Raven 10x before another United We Stand. I guess it just goes to show that 1/7 tries for United We Stand took a toll on me.
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#46 Jun 13 2013 at 6:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
I was right, combat sucked, or they would not have changed it.... Smiley: lol


I don't think anyone disagreed that combat could use tweaks and changes. But I would disagree that "combat sucked". I was very much not a doom-and-gloomer on the beta forums, while everyone was crying bloody tears, because it's a beta. And it's not the 1.0 beta, they've been responding to every single comment.
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#47 Jun 13 2013 at 7:17 AM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I was right, combat sucked, or they would not have changed it.... Smiley: lol


I don't think anyone disagreed that combat could use tweaks and changes. But I would disagree that "combat sucked". I was very much not a doom-and-gloomer on the beta forums, while everyone was crying bloody tears, because it's a beta. And it's not the 1.0 beta, they've been responding to every single comment.


I am going to take sides on this. With the understanding that opinions are still heavily charged. I'm going to say this anyway. Ostia's comment was not incorrect. The battle system in phase 1 and 2 was the most monotonous, un-strategic and boring systems I have ever encountered in an MMO. Gloating about being right in a 50/50 guess probably not something to be proud of but he was correct. I am really hoping the changes they implemented in this next phase improve the feel of combat. It is really the key to success for FFXIV: ARR.
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#48 Jun 13 2013 at 9:06 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Just to clear up my statement before thread spirals into 'XI takes mad skillz yoz' banter...

There were many skilled players in XI. I am not, nor do I believe anyone would disagree with that. All I'm saying is that under normal circumstances, the only thing required to complete content successfully was paying attention and/or having the ability to read.


Considering how many people whine about subtitled foreign films and TV shows because they don't want to read...

Actually, that was one of my biggest complaints about WHM. I spent so much time staring at the chat log and the HP bars that I didn't get to see all that much of the action.
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#49 Jun 13 2013 at 8:20 PM Rating: Decent
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kainsilv wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I was right, combat sucked, or they would not have changed it.... Smiley: lol


I don't think anyone disagreed that combat could use tweaks and changes. But I would disagree that "combat sucked". I was very much not a doom-and-gloomer on the beta forums, while everyone was crying bloody tears, because it's a beta. And it's not the 1.0 beta, they've been responding to every single comment.


I am going to take sides on this. With the understanding that opinions are still heavily charged. I'm going to say this anyway. Ostia's comment was not incorrect. The battle system in phase 1 and 2 was the most monotonous, un-strategic and boring systems I have ever encountered in an MMO. Gloating about being right in a 50/50 guess probably not something to be proud of but he was correct. I am really hoping the changes they implemented in this next phase improve the feel of combat. It is really the key to success for FFXIV: ARR.


Seconded.

The only real way to come to the conclusion that the battle systems didn't suck was comparing them to those implemented in the first batch of tests back in 2010. Even then, the best you could do is say that it sucks slightly less than those did Smiley: lol
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Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#50 Jun 13 2013 at 11:57 PM Rating: Default
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Louiscool wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I was right, combat sucked, or they would not have changed it.... Smiley: lol


I don't think anyone disagreed that combat could use tweaks and changes. But I would disagree that "combat sucked". I was very much not a doom-and-gloomer on the beta forums, while everyone was crying bloody tears, because it's a beta. And it's not the 1.0 beta, they've been responding to every single comment.


It did Suck! I know for some people it's really hard to accept that anything could suck in XIV, i mean i remember when i said XIV 1.0 sucked, and people said "Oh it does not suck... I like It" Combat in the first two phases was the most boring non engaging combat system i have ever seen in an MMO! If you where questing all you ever had to do was press 1-2 over and over, and probably the first time you did it, the monster was dead, it din't change in dungeons, sure mobs lasted a bit longer, but it was mindless key pressing, no need to position yourself, if you got aggro ? No Problem! Just Dps him down while the tank keeps tanking 3 Mobs! The combat made the game feel easy mode, because there was no reason to even try a rotation, i know some people say that at lvl 35 blablabla, BS you could do just as good just pressing 1-2 over and over, the difference in total damage dealt would not be over a thousand, and that Sucked!

Hope they fixed it :) Guess we will see in 3 hours Smiley: lol
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#51 Jun 14 2013 at 8:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
If paying attention is a skill, then being a healer in FFXI took skill. At least, being a good one did.

But these days there are so many Windower add-ons and plugins that you just need to configure and set it up and your WHM will automatically heal, cure status ailments, and rest for MP. Difference is a cure-bot may not be able to make the split second judgment calls needed for end game fights - cure the MNK who is down to 150 hp or the tank who is down to 300? Cure bot says cure the one with lowest HP. Good WHM says cure the tank because he's the one most likely to take the next hit, and his cure IV won't max him out.

WHM wasn't hard if you paid attention. But too many MMO players have the attention span of kittens.

Paying attention is a skill. It's a measure of patience, caring, and understanding. Something that many women complain about their men often. While men always are more worried about their freedom and thinking everything is caused in some way by them. Tremendous skill? No, just a little effort pays off in videogames.

Mods began to make the tedious things less tedious, now they got mods for everything. Which detracts from some user skill. But I agree with you. Too many mmo players got bad attention spans.
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