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#352 Jun 24 2013 at 5:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
Translation: "After I disregard all the reasons for buying the game. I want you to give me a reason to buy the game."


I disregard the reason that "it's Final Fantasy" as a reason to buy the game because: I really do not care. Like, at all.

Cool, they had the rights to stick Buster Swords and Chocobos and Moogles into their new mass appeal MMORPG. I'm not tearing up here. I'm not overwhelmed by nostalgia.

In general, I try to judge games individually... that is, I've definitely bought or given games a chance because of the title on the box, but the title on the box can't make the game itself good. "Being Final Fantasy" isn't a reason that this game is good. That's a reason people might buy it.

I still want to know why this game is good, because from where I'm standing other games are doing the same thing but better, just with no Final Fantasy name to latch onto... (I'm rambling).
#353 Jun 24 2013 at 5:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Its not doing anything innovative. If the idea of a tried and true modern MMO formula, but with a Final Fantasy flavour doesn't appeal to you, my suggestion would be to move on and stop wasting your time on a FFXIV fansite.

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 7:28pm by Arjuncorpse
#354 Jun 24 2013 at 5:37 PM Rating: Good
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I've yet to see an MMO so cohesive as A Realm Reborn in combining its elements together well.

A lot of people hold ideals of certain types of MMOs that hold 'superior' elements, and then find themselves lacking, horrifically, in other key departments. FFXIV stands as good in all of these matters. They're not compromising any one particular aspect of the game for the sake of innovation or being revolutionary. The only real key complaint being stated here is that Yoshida seems to be appealing too heavily towards the new player, though even that is getting mixed responses among the community, especially in key dungeons.

Nobody can tell you your opinion for you. IF you can't tell yourself why the game is good, no explanation form another person will satisfy and you'll just disregard it like you have done so continually of the past year to say the least.
#355 Jun 24 2013 at 5:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
I also recall saying(not verbatim, but **** close) that the new UI made me so moist that I started to slide in my chair.


As an admin I shouldn't condone this but ******* if I didn't literally LOL at this Smiley: laugh


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#356 Jun 24 2013 at 5:47 PM Rating: Excellent
Wint wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I also recall saying(not verbatim, but **** close) that the new UI made me so moist that I started to slide in my chair.


As an admin I shouldn't condone this but ******* if I didn't literally LOL at this Smiley: laugh





You've lost control Wint, the inmates are running the asylum!

#357 Jun 24 2013 at 5:54 PM Rating: Decent
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ShindaUsagi wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Yoshi-P Just Yoshi-P man. He could announce that he is making the next Hello Kitty: Island Adventure game and I'll go pre-order it right now.


If you would buy any game just because you like Yoshi-P, doesn't that make your recommendation for ARR pretty much useless?


I pretty much love everything Atlus has been releasing for some time now. Because of that I'm a day 1 preorder for the next of any Atlus release. Will my review, unless negative, not be considered viable?


I wouldn't call it useless, but it's like recommending a movie by your favorite director. If the person you're making the recommendation to hasn't seen anything from them previously, it's hard to make that shape their opinion or even be cause for consideration.

The thread is first impressions so we already have a bunch of feedback (both positive and negative). I was just looking specifically for what it is about XIV that people enjoy that they don't feel they could find elsewhere aside from the obvious ones(director, composer, writers, graphics engine, ect.).
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#358 Jun 24 2013 at 6:36 PM Rating: Good
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Filthy wrote:
I was just looking specifically for what it is about XIV that people enjoy that they don't feel they could find elsewhere aside from the obvious ones(director, composer, writers, graphics engine, ect.).


So apparently, ignoring the plethora of other reasons people have listed: storyline, fluid system mechanics, the gorgeous landscape, the multiple classes on 1 character, the sleek combination of successful mechanics from other mmos, et. all just don't count for you? How many more reasons do you need? I mean, if you were to ask me what I enjoyed in any mmo, I'm not going to make a list longer than what people have already said. Seriously, if you can't see what other people see in the game, it's clearly not for you. It really is that simple.
#359 Jun 24 2013 at 6:55 PM Rating: Excellent
ARR is unique in the right ways, and that's a beautiful thing.

The development team (led by Yoshi-P) didn't make the mistake of trying to reinvent the features that make MMOs so much fun. This game has large, distinct, explorable landscapes; an ultimate endgame emphasis on party play, and not soloist play; an engaging battle system that gets more complex as you level; a fantastic storyline; Etc.

At the same time, ARR has new and unique features to make it stand out from the crowd. It's a Final Fantasy title (sorry, naysayers, but this is a HUGE difference). It's multi-platform on the same servers, including the eventual introduction of ps4 players. The graphics engine isn't just awesome, but it's adaptable. The controller UI is all-new. Etc.

Basically, ARR is keeping the gameplay elements that make Final Fantasy games and MMORPGs fun, but while updating the infrastructure through which we enjoy these games. It's a "back to the basics" experience during a time when many other games are bumbling around to implement awkward gimmicks, such as getting rid of tanks and healers or giving players a "dodge roll" that gives invulnerability no matter which direction you happen to roll. Even the storyline of ARR is a "back to the basics" endeavor. Many MMORPGs these days attempt to execute branching storylines so that everyone can have experiences that seem to be unique... but Square Enix is sticking with its tried-and-true formula of involving all of its players in common struggles to overcome the same odds. The fact that ARR remains, at its core, a pure PvE game also makes it unique compared to most other games coming out these days.

People who truly can't see ARR as being unique in this market just aren't looking at this game objectively, nor are they seeing the big picture of the MMORPG market.

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 5:56pm by Thayos
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#360 Jun 24 2013 at 6:56 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
Filthy wrote:
I was just looking specifically for what it is about XIV that people enjoy that they don't feel they could find elsewhere aside from the obvious ones(director, composer, writers, graphics engine, ect.).


So apparently, ignoring the plethora of other reasons people have listed: storyline, fluid system mechanics, the gorgeous landscape, the multiple classes on 1 character, the sleek combination of successful mechanics from other mmos, et. all just don't count for you?


Ahh, my fans. Had you ignored, but since it seems that you're trying so hard still by responding to me, I'll give you a shot...

Nothing from what you listed above except playing multiple classes on one character is unique to XIV. It has a storyline, same as the rest. It has a functional UI(finally), same as the rest. It has grass... no need to go on I suppose. I do find it odd that you listed 'combination of mechanics from other games' as a reason XIV is different from other games. Perhaps you should hone up on your reading comprehension before lashing out and making yourself look like you took a rolanberry pie to the face.

BartelX wrote:
Seriously, if you can't see what other people see in the game, it's clearly not for you. It really is that simple.

There is a difference between things people like in a game and things they like that are unique to XIV. If the answer is "Everything I like can be found in other games" that's fine. There is no right or wrong answer, just answers that don't really satisfy the question. There have been several answers already that are fine. I didn't pick them apart and disagree with them because they're people's opinions. I'm just curious what their opinion is about the elements in this game that are not present in other games. It really is quite that simple. Stop fishing.


Edited, Jun 24th 2013 8:56pm by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#361 Jun 24 2013 at 7:10 PM Rating: Good
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Dizmo wrote:
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
Dizmo wrote:
sandpark wrote:

Sounds like you are tired of rpgs in general. Almost every single quest in the offline FF or other offline rpgs are scripted, you level up, and you kill things over and over.


Pretty much... I guess it just feels like MMOs ought to have more complexity and depth than whacking mobs that inexplicably reappear outside town every few minutes now that it's 2013. :/ I find it hard to maintain my suspension of disbelief.


It's too hard to have that many people involved, online, and not have lag going off all over the place ******** people over. That's why things aren't overly complicated in MMO's.

I don't mean fast paced action style mechanics though.


I feel I should expand on myself here.

Since Everquest, all these high budget MMOs have been following the same formula of slaughter on rails, with the ideal of creating a self consistent virtual world with opportunity for rich player interaction and actual role playing being second to mindless killing. Except for a few anomalies, the genre hasn't progressed at all. FFXIV was meant to be fun even if one just played crafting classes exclusively, but that hasn't seemed to have panned out well.

Rather than being tired of RPGs, I'm tired of playing the same game again and again. Nowhere in the phrase "(mass multiplayer) role playing game" is there reference to endless destruction of local fauna, or even leveling up. Yet this has come to dominate the genre and the MMO community doesn't seem to be demanding anything else.
#362 Jun 24 2013 at 7:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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The fact that it takes elements I enjoyed from other games that I didn't really care for overall and blends them into a FF game is a major selling point to me. I enjoyed a lot of the raid fights in WoW, however since I spent so many hours beating my head against a wall waiting for other people to figure out when to not stand in fire and it got old pretty quick. Having a bit easier telegraphed attacks is a big plus to me to have for those that can't move out of the way as well. I also liked the world event mechanics of GW2... and pretty much nothing else about the game other than the Super Mystery Box event.

Roll that stuff into a game and slap some Elvaan clones on it and I'm all over that stuff. The game has it's issues with me but they are minor. They have a pretty solid launch product now and I have a feeling that they will build and improve on it in a timely fashion. FFXI and WoW both were pretty blah when they were released. After some updates the worlds ended up being places that some people have spent a decade in.

I can understand why the beginning of the game is the way that it is so long as the rest of the game leads toward a more intense experience. I was a bit put off my first night playing, but the further I got the more I found myself enjoying it. Leveling was too fast for my liking until I changed classes. Without the storyline quests to feed your exp, leveling slows down quite a bit, even with hunting logs, leves, and FATES. This gave me a bit of the grind I enjoyed form time to time in FFXI.
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#363 Jun 24 2013 at 7:29 PM Rating: Good
Dizmo wrote:
I feel I should expand on myself here.

Since Everquest, all these high budget MMOs have been following the same formula of slaughter on rails, with the ideal of creating a self consistent virtual world with opportunity for rich player interaction and actual role playing being second to mindless killing. Except for a few anomalies, the genre hasn't progressed at all. FFXIV was meant to be fun even if one just played crafting classes exclusively, but that hasn't seemed to have panned out well.

Rather than being tired of RPGs, I'm tired of playing the same game again and again. Nowhere in the phrase "(mass multiplayer) role playing game" is there reference to endless destruction of local fauna, or even leveling up. Yet this has come to dominate the genre and the MMO community doesn't seem to be demanding anything else.


Actually, just to counter this:

Role-playing games started from paper and pencil games which were about... well... endless destruction of the local fauna and leveling up.

Now, let me be clear, not saying you're not justified in wanting another sort of MMO experience, but expecting an MMORPG to be about something other than leveling is a little silly. You're basically asking it to not be an RPG. Now, honestly, I'd love to see other MMO experiences out there for people looking for them, such as yourself, because it could be very interesting. But, yea, expecting FFXIV to be about more than leveling isn't really going to happen.

I do wish that, as a crafter, you could level up and be a part of a party, I thought that was an interesting idea from 1.0, but I can see why it doesn't really work...
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#364 Jun 24 2013 at 7:33 PM Rating: Excellent
Final Fantasy XIV actually discourages the slaughter of local fauna by getting rid of standard "exp parties" and instead strongly urging/herding players through the myriad of dungeons, leves, behests, etc.
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#365 Jun 24 2013 at 7:36 PM Rating: Good
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Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:
Now, let me be clear, not saying you're not justified in wanting another sort of MMO experience, but expecting an MMORPG to be about something other than leveling is a little silly.

The basic premise of this game when it started was to break that mold Pawkeshup. If you go back and find articles about what XIV was supposed to be pre-alpha 1.0, you'd see that and you'd also probably think it was a really cool concept just like most of us did back then. Their aim was to step outside of the mindless grind and into being able to accomplish character progression through other means. The same was supposed to be true of the 'classless class-based system' they had in mind for what we now call jobs.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#366 Jun 24 2013 at 7:43 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
ShindaUsagi wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Yoshi-P Just Yoshi-P man. He could announce that he is making the next Hello Kitty: Island Adventure game and I'll go pre-order it right now.


If you would buy any game just because you like Yoshi-P, doesn't that make your recommendation for ARR pretty much useless?


I pretty much love everything Atlus has been releasing for some time now. Because of that I'm a day 1 preorder for the next of any Atlus release. Will my review, unless negative, not be considered viable?


I wouldn't call it useless, but it's like recommending a movie by your favorite director. If the person you're making the recommendation to hasn't seen anything from them previously, it's hard to make that shape their opinion or even be cause for consideration.

The thread is first impressions so we already have a bunch of feedback (both positive and negative). I was just looking specifically for what it is about XIV that people enjoy that they don't feel they could find elsewhere aside from the obvious ones(director, composer, writers, graphics engine, ect.).


I would go to any Scorsese or Tarantino film without seeing a preview or having any prior knowledge of the movie. Yes, sometimes you'll have to watch Deathproof, but those times more than make up for Pulp Fiction.

Bolded: So basically, you asked why and then discount every reason I gave for being too obvious? So predictable... Smiley: rolleyes

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 9:45pm by Louiscool

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 9:48pm by Louiscool
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#367 Jun 24 2013 at 7:55 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Their aim was to step outside of the mindless grind and into being able to accomplish character progression through other means. The same was supposed to be true of the 'classless class-based system' they had in mind for what we now call jobs.


While ARR isn't going as far into left field as FFXIV originally intended, Yoshi-P has done away with the standard MMORPG grind by instead funneling players through dungeons/behests/leves/quests in order to level up. This is a departure from the old ways of MMORPGs (and specifically FFXI), when leveling was mostly accomplished by killing the same mob over and over again. So, yes, in FFXIV:ARR, we will be progressing our characters through other means than typical grinding.

As for attempting a "classless class-based system," the current system of classes/jobs actually fits that bill pretty nicely.

Fortunately, another game called Guild Wars 2 came along and committed fully to the true classless system, and the result was a disaster. Combat in that game is cluttered and without purpose. Nobody has defined roles, and everyone can do everything. Raids and group events pay a huge price for this, as everything is pretty much a massive zerg fest with no real strategy or group dynamics.

The approach taken with FFXIV allows for some degree of "classless" gameplay while people are alone or playing in small groups; however, the meat of the game's content is being designed to be played by parties, and people in those parties will have to perform their defined roles in order for the group to succeed... and that's the way it should be.
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#368 Jun 24 2013 at 8:07 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:
Now, let me be clear, not saying you're not justified in wanting another sort of MMO experience, but expecting an MMORPG to be about something other than leveling is a little silly.

The basic premise of this game when it started was to break that mold Pawkeshup. If you go back and find articles about what XIV was supposed to be pre-alpha 1.0, you'd see that and you'd also probably think it was a really cool concept just like most of us did back then. Their aim was to step outside of the mindless grind and into being able to accomplish character progression through other means. The same was supposed to be true of the 'classless class-based system' they had in mind for what we now call jobs.


Even back then, even though I thought that idea was cool, I knew it would be very difficult, if not impossible to implement.

GW2 even tried to hind the grind, but all they really did was make things a bit more fluid and hide the numbers (of quests) behind the scenes.

---

I was highly interested but skeptical of the pre-1.0 armory system.

Would implementing a system like that make a great game? Who knows; on it's own, probably not? GW2 didn't keep me interested after a month and that was going down that same road of innovation.

---

The only thing I can see that would be innovative that would be unique to FFXIV would be some ideas for a "grid sphere" system to allocate stats, instead of the just, "put 3 points into STR here, or 2 points into MND there."

I think that is one of the things that possibly should be looked at for depth, in part because it's safe and unique.

---

That being said, I'm in the camp that the game can, most definitely, rest on solid FF lore. Especially if everything else is good enough.

I don't want the game to not progress and to try new things, but I think the argument that it doesn't have any overtly innovative systems; therefore something, doesn't really pass any tests.

The game is good enough in its current state for newbies to try, and I think it's very palatable to fans of the series.

And for SE that's all that matters.

I don't think innovation equals longevity, and anecdotally I'm testament that it doesn't.
#369 Jun 24 2013 at 8:41 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Ahh, my fans. Had you ignored, but since it seems that you're trying so hard still by responding to me, I'll give you a shot...


Yes, because I'm sure this is the first post of mine you actually read. Kinda defeats the point of the ignore button huh? Smiley: rolleyes

FilthMcNasty wrote:
Nothing from what you listed above except playing multiple classes on one character is unique to XIV. It has a storyline, same as the rest. It has a functional UI(finally), same as the rest. It has grass... no need to go on I suppose. I do find it odd that you listed 'combination of mechanics from other games' as a reason XIV is different from other games. Perhaps you should hone up on your reading comprehension before lashing out and making yourself look like you took a rolanberry pie to the face.


On their own the mechanics they've borrowed from other games aren't unique, but when you combine them together, it makes for a unique experience that I haven't seen rivaled in any other game, which is what I was getting at. Aside from that, the storyline is better than any game I've played in an mmo and is unique and engaging. I didn't mention the UI, so apparently I'm not the one failing at reading comprehension. Oh, but I'm sure you weren't referencing my post there even though it was in the middle of your rant against me, right?

If your response to gorgeous landscape is "It has grass", then either you are mostly blind, you are comparing it to non-mmo's, or you've apparently played some mmo's I haven't, because I've never seen a more beautifully designed or unique mmo in terms of graphics to date. And like I said before, there's a plethora of other reasons listed by many different posters which you've either ignored or glossed over, much like I said you would. If you can't take comfort in them and appreciate them, the game probably just isn't for you.

FilthMcNasty wrote:

I'm just curious what their opinion is about the elements in this game that are not present in other games. It really is quite that simple. Stop fishing.


Apparently responding to something I don't agree with is fishing. News to me.



Edited, Jun 24th 2013 10:47pm by BartelX
#370 Jun 24 2013 at 8:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
I would go to any Scorsese or Tarantino film without seeing a preview or having any prior knowledge of the movie. Yes, sometimes you'll have to watch Deathproof, but those times more than make up for Pulp Fiction.

Bolded: So basically, you asked why and then discount every reason I gave for being too obvious? So predictable... Smiley: rolleyes


You're missing the point Lou. You would go see those films because you know the name. If people flock to stores to pick up XIV, it's not going to be because Yoshi is a well known producer. Capeesh?

I am not discounting your answers, but not all of your answers are relevant to the question. There is no right or wrong, pass or fail; but there are answers that don't fit in the space provided.

Thayos wrote:
Fortunately, another game called Guild Wars 2 came along and committed fully to the true classless system, and the result was a disaster. Combat in that game is cluttered and without purpose. Nobody has defined roles, and everyone can do everything. Raids and group events pay a huge price for this, as everything is pretty much a massive zerg fest with no real strategy or group dynamics.

GW2 breaking away from the holy trinity isn't at all the same as the ideas SE had for XIV prior to the alpha. You weren't around here in '09?

Again, I'm not trying to make a case that XIV isn't innovative or original. I'm just trying to see if there is anything that is unique about what people are enjoying.

____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#371 Jun 24 2013 at 8:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Again, I'm not trying to make a case that XIV isn't innovative or original. I'm just trying to see if there is anything that is unique about what people are enjoying.


Ok, here are some more unique things: the crafting system, which is completely unique and the deepest I've seen in an mmo; the gathering system, which again is completely unique to FFXIV; the ability to change jobs/classes in the field on the fly; the ability to save an almost limitless number of gearsets, the whole armoury system where gear is stored outside of your inventory; the materia system (yes it comes from an FF game but is completely unique to mmos); integrating dungeons into the actual storyline of the game.

I thought of all those reasons in about 3 minutes time. Maybe some have been done before (I certainly haven't played every mmo), but let me ask you this. What game really has many unique features anymore? Does WoW have much that's unique? Does Rift? Does lotro? DnD? Swtor? etc? Each of these games, I can think of maybe a couple things they do uniquely, the rest is either straight borrowed from other mmo's or adapted from them. WoW was an innovator... 9 years ago. Now? Most games have many of the same features. There are still plenty of unique things about FFXIV, not the least of which is the FF lore that you like to ignore for whatever reason.
#372 Jun 24 2013 at 9:04 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
I'm just trying to see if there is anything that is unique about what people are enjoying.


And we've answered your question. Yes, there are many unique aspects of FFXIV that people are enjoying, even in the game's beta form. You can find these things in the posts up above.

Also -- because you apparently weren't around in '09 -- the original FFXIV very much attempted to give everyone the ability to do everything, much like GW2 ended up doing. The result was so bad, that Yoshi-P (who inherited the mess) established the class/job system in order to bring in party roles without totally killing classless play.
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#373 Jun 24 2013 at 9:04 PM Rating: Good
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Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:
Dizmo wrote:
I feel I should expand on myself here.

Since Everquest, all these high budget MMOs have been following the same formula of slaughter on rails, with the ideal of creating a self consistent virtual world with opportunity for rich player interaction and actual role playing being second to mindless killing. Except for a few anomalies, the genre hasn't progressed at all. FFXIV was meant to be fun even if one just played crafting classes exclusively, but that hasn't seemed to have panned out well.

Rather than being tired of RPGs, I'm tired of playing the same game again and again. Nowhere in the phrase "(mass multiplayer) role playing game" is there reference to endless destruction of local fauna, or even leveling up. Yet this has come to dominate the genre and the MMO community doesn't seem to be demanding anything else.


Actually, just to counter this:

Role-playing games started from paper and pencil games which were about... well... endless destruction of the local fauna and leveling up.

Now, let me be clear, not saying you're not justified in wanting another sort of MMO experience, but expecting an MMORPG to be about something other than leveling is a little silly. You're basically asking it to not be an RPG. Now, honestly, I'd love to see other MMO experiences out there for people looking for them, such as yourself, because it could be very interesting. But, yea, expecting FFXIV to be about more than leveling isn't really going to happen.

I do wish that, as a crafter, you could level up and be a part of a party, I thought that was an interesting idea from 1.0, but I can see why it doesn't really work...

A rpg is about playing a fantasy role with progression. Just the most common popular take on it involves levels. From my perspective he isn't saying that the core has to cease being destroying fauna. He is just wanting different types of rewarding progression and for developers to approach the systems differently than what WoW or Everquest set.

Incoming examples with intention not to champion other titles but show how titles play differently
Combat:
Final Fantasy up to IX= Turn Based or ATB
Final Fantasy XII= CTB
FFXII= ADB
FFXIII= Slotted ATB
WoW= Hotkey standard
Tera= Free target combat

Same overlying premise but they play differently.

Quests:
Final Fantasy XI= Old fashioned quests that do not hold your hand.
WoW= Quests clearly pointed out that hold your hand.
Guild Wars 2= Dynamic quests
Everquest Next= Utilizing story brick license
Neverwinter= The Foundry

Same overlying premise but they play differently.

If you look at Final Fantasy offline, it doesn't innovate at every turn. But the core systems are **** unique and play differently from other rpgs. I am still going to play ARR if it the core doesn't strongly distinguish itself from other titles. FFXI renkei system is something I have never seen in another game whether you liked it or not. I think Dizmo's or Filthy's beef is, why do most mmos borrow so much for the core systems when designing the game. I understand real time combat is more complicated. But Triple A mmos are supposed to bring in more cash than offline titles. Do they suddenly forget how to form brand new original ideas to hook non fans in?

Dizmo's pain extends beyond combat though. And ARR isn't the only mmo guilty of this. And it isn't Square's sole responsibility to fx this. Every themepark mmo is approaching other systems in the same fashion. Borrow a little, slightly change stuff, approaching game development timid to stray from the norm.

All rpg design doesn't need to only focus on raids, crafting gear or items, or pc vs pc melee PvP. Earlier I wished for things like airship/magitek circuits/chocobo jousting all with the potential of having their own progression systems. Housing in ARR is a form of progression too. But I guess if systems got too complex that would lead the game into being more of a sandbox I suppose. Multiple choices in dialogue and plot events and seasonal events add to the roleplay atmosphere.

Dizmo,
Who knows? Maybe 1.0 would have attempted those things and maybe not. We will never know because the execution was so bad the game flopped. Yoshi has made it very clear that this will be a traditional mmo. If you are coming into ARR expecting this to turn the mmo tropes on their head even though they lost a lots of money on this so far. You are asking for disappointment.

Everquest Next is the current mmo that is promising while it will have the traditional stuff. It is seeking to redefine what an mmo is.
But every mmo promises that and usually under delivers. You need to find what makes this mmo special in yourself. No one can convince you otherwise. It still has lots to offer if you love Final Fantasy but can get over that things will not be hugely different from other mmos.
#374 Jun 24 2013 at 9:06 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Again, I'm not trying to make a case that XIV isn't innovative or original. I'm just trying to see if there is anything that is unique about what people are enjoying.


Ok, here are some more unique things: the crafting system, which is completely unique and the deepest I've seen in an mmo; the gathering system, which again is completely unique to FFXIV; the ability to change jobs/classes in the field on the fly; the ability to save an almost limitless number of gearsets, the whole armoury system where gear is stored outside of your inventory; the materia system (yes it comes from an FF game but is completely unique to mmos); integrating dungeons into the actual storyline of the game.

I thought of all those reasons in about 3 minutes time. Maybe some have been done before (I certainly haven't played every mmo), but let me ask you this. What game really has many unique features anymore? Does WoW have much that's unique? Does Rift? Does lotro? DnD? Swtor? etc? Each of these games, I can think of maybe a couple things they do uniquely, the rest is either straight borrowed from other mmo's or adapted from them. WoW was an innovator... 9 years ago. Now? Most games have many of the same features. There are still plenty of unique things about FFXIV, not the least of which is the FF lore that you like to ignore for whatever reason.

I agree with you on this BartelX.
#375 Jun 24 2013 at 10:18 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Again, I'm not trying to make a case that XIV isn't innovative or original. I'm just trying to see if there is anything that is unique about what people are enjoying.


Ok, here are some more unique things: the crafting system, which is completely unique and the deepest I've seen in an mmo; the gathering system, which again is completely unique to FFXIV; the ability to change jobs/classes in the field on the fly; the ability to save an almost limitless number of gearsets, the whole armoury system where gear is stored outside of your inventory; the materia system (yes it comes from an FF game but is completely unique to mmos); integrating dungeons into the actual storyline of the game.


This is what I am looking for. Clear, concise and... civil. Thanks.

Now to answer your question, yes; it is true that many games share many of the same features even outside of what we would all consider core mechanics and design. The 'couple things they do uniquely' that you refer to is what I have found to be the main reason that players gravitate toward and stay with those games. I won't deny that the lore of FF is something that keeps people coming back. Never have and never will. I just consider it (great storytelling, memorable characters, plot, ect.) to be something that you can find in other games as well.

Thayos wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I'm just trying to see if there is anything that is unique about what people are enjoying.
And we've answered your question. Yes, there are many unique aspects of FFXIV that people are enjoying, even in the game's beta form. You can find these things in the posts up above.


I read your post Thayos and I thank you for answering. It wasn't an ultimatum though. This is not a "I bet you can't name 2 unique things" type of question and different people might have different answers.

Thayos wrote:
Also -- because you apparently weren't around in '09 -- the original FFXIV very much attempted to give everyone the ability to do everything, much like GW2 ended up doing.

There was more to it than that. DoL/DoH were supposed to have roles in groups. It never fleshed out further than you could toss a pebble(pun intended), but it was deeper than just give everyone self healing and either mitigation or evasion so that everyone can tank, heal or DD. Anyway, the only reason I brought it up was that I thought it ironic that one of the most interesting things about XIV(at least at the time) is now something that gets swept under the flying carpet.


Edited, Jun 25th 2013 12:19am by FilthMcNasty
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#376 Jun 24 2013 at 10:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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DoL/DoH were supposed to have roles in groups.


Yep, that is definitely a big goal that won't be realized in ARR. That would have been interesting to see how that could have worked out. The downside may have been that for crafting to be a full-fledged class, it may not have been accessible enough for those who just wanted to do it leisurely.
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#377 Jun 24 2013 at 10:43 PM Rating: Good
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Role-playing games started from paper and pencil games which were about... well... endless destruction of the local fauna and leveling up.

Now, let me be clear, not saying you're not justified in wanting another sort of MMO experience, but expecting an MMORPG to be about something other than leveling is a little silly. You're basically asking it to not be an RPG.


An RPG is just a game where you play a character trying to do well for themselves in a virtual world. They needn't involve leveling or killing or any other particular aspect of historical titles. I would happily play a game that involves neither of these if it provides an element of long term challenge. Indeed, I have absolutely no interest at this point in time in monster hunting. I'd rather be involved in industry, trade, development, diplomacy, etc. right now.

In contrast a lot of MMOs feel less like RPGs and more like online action games. It's hard to ascertain your character's place in the world when economic interaction is very basic and one just goes around rampaging most of the time. Even in D&D the point is to experience a meaningful adventure with your companions, certainly not "endless destruction of the local fauna and leveling up". It is of my opinion that incremental reward based mechanics are just a way of keeping people addicted to a game that they otherwise wouldn't want to play. While young consumers are quick to take this kind of bait, I think the WoW generation is growing up and becoming a bit cynical about this kind of thing.

I'm not expecting anything new from FFXIV, by the way, just stating my hopes about the future of the industry. Hopefully EQ3 will be good.

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 12:54am by Dizmo
#378 Jun 24 2013 at 11:00 PM Rating: Default
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BartelX wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Again, I'm not trying to make a case that XIV isn't innovative or original. I'm just trying to see if there is anything that is unique about what people are enjoying.


Ok, here are some more unique things: the crafting system, which is completely unique and the deepest I've seen in an mmo; the gathering system, which again is completely unique to FFXIV; the ability to change jobs/classes in the field on the fly; the ability to save an almost limitless number of gearsets, the whole armoury system where gear is stored outside of your inventory; the materia system (yes it comes from an FF game but is completely unique to mmos); integrating dungeons into the actual storyline of the game.

I thought of all those reasons in about 3 minutes time. Maybe some have been done before (I certainly haven't played every mmo), but let me ask you this. What game really has many unique features anymore? Does WoW have much that's unique? Does Rift? Does lotro? DnD? Swtor? etc? Each of these games, I can think of maybe a couple things they do uniquely, the rest is either straight borrowed from other mmo's or adapted from them. WoW was an innovator... 9 years ago. Now? Most games have many of the same features. There are still plenty of unique things about FFXIV, not the least of which is the FF lore that you like to ignore for whatever reason.


Materia is basically the GEM system in WOW..... How is it unique ? How is crafting unique ? It's crafting... Smiley: lol yeah gathering is unique.... No other game has gathering.... Smiley: lol Oh yeah dungeons being part of the story... Did not happen in EQ2 nor in Wow, nor in rift, nor in Gw2 nor in swotor.... Smiley: lol

I sometimes do not know how some of you can post stuff like that with a straight face
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#379 Jun 25 2013 at 12:18 AM Rating: Excellent
I wasn't aware that WoW predates Final Fantasy VII. I learn something new every day!
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#380 Jun 25 2013 at 12:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
I wasn't aware that WoW predates Final Fantasy VII. I learn something new every day!

We're talking about XIV though. Similarities with XI can slide since it's an MMO and being from SE, they're expected to have similarities. If you wanted to include things from single player games we probably wouldn't find anything original at all; not just in XIV, but in any MMO.

WoW allows you to change jobs on the fly with the dual-spec talent system. Same can be said for TERA with glyphs. Both WoW and TERA also allow you to store presets for gear. Actually having the gear on you isn't really an issue because you're allowed access to your storage from anywhere in both games. I'm not gonna nitpick **** as long as I see at least one thing that's unique. I understand that not everyone has experience with all MMOs so I'm not crucifying people for having a thing or two that are already in play elsewhere.
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#381Ostia, Posted: Jun 25 2013 at 1:12 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You could have said VI where the orignial system came from... But like you said, you are still learning every Day! Smiley: lol
#382 Jun 25 2013 at 1:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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I wont get into much detail because i can't say i am an expert but i will say that at the moment what is the most unique thing in ARR compared to other MMOs (not counting XI cause its a SE game as well) is the job system. I understand that other MMO allow you to have more than one class like wow or TERA that someone mentioned but FF allows you to have ALL classes in 1 char. Wow only let you have 2 different builds from the same class like you can't be a tauren druid and become a paladin.

There is also lineage that i know that lets you have any class you want in the same char but in order to do that you need to do an insane amount of leveling and then to do a heck of a lot of quests etc to allow you to do it.

Thats from the MMOs i know, i don't believe there is another one that allows you to do that so easily is it?
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#383 Jun 25 2013 at 2:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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sandpark wrote:
BartelX wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Again, I'm not trying to make a case that XIV isn't innovative or original. I'm just trying to see if there is anything that is unique about what people are enjoying.


Ok, here are some more unique things: the crafting system, which is completely unique and the deepest I've seen in an mmo; the gathering system, which again is completely unique to FFXIV; the ability to change jobs/classes in the field on the fly; the ability to save an almost limitless number of gearsets, the whole armoury system where gear is stored outside of your inventory; the materia system (yes it comes from an FF game but is completely unique to mmos); integrating dungeons into the actual storyline of the game.

I thought of all those reasons in about 3 minutes time. Maybe some have been done before (I certainly haven't played every mmo), but let me ask you this. What game really has many unique features anymore? Does WoW have much that's unique? Does Rift? Does lotro? DnD? Swtor? etc? Each of these games, I can think of maybe a couple things they do uniquely, the rest is either straight borrowed from other mmo's or adapted from them. WoW was an innovator... 9 years ago. Now? Most games have many of the same features. There are still plenty of unique things about FFXIV, not the least of which is the FF lore that you like to ignore for whatever reason.

I agree with you on this BartelX.


Eden Eternal had a system that allowed you to change classes on the fly as well :P

I keed! Well no, it actually did have that system implemented, but... that game was just terrible. It's a F2P, but even knowing the general reputation that field has, that game is, in my opinion... *twitches*
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#384 Jun 25 2013 at 3:08 AM Rating: Decent
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I'd also just point out that there really isn't much difference between leveling 10 characters to cap in WoW or 22 in XI or however many will be in XIV. Everything is unified under the battletag of your account in WoW so you get all the perks of having completed instances, achievements, ect no matter which character you're on.

The only thing I heard against not wanting to level several characters thus far was a complaint about friends list, but even that is unified. If you put someone on your friends list in Blizz games you'll see them no matter which character they're on. To carry that even further, you can also see your friends online when they are playing other Blizzard games.

This was actually a feature I left feedback asking for back in the first alpha test. I know there are people who aren't leaving XI due to the amount of time they put in. There was a bit of a fuss about SE making another MMO and splitting the population between the games, but I think the community would benefit from being able to link FL between XI and XIV using the Square Enix ID system. Might be iffy with the cross platform thing I guess, but worth considering at least.

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 5:08am by FilthMcNasty
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#385 Jun 25 2013 at 3:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't need anything unique to play this game. There are plenty of MMO's that had something unique, that i quit playing in a short amount of time.
Aion: you got wings, and could fly/glide around.
Terra: Free targeting / point and shoot.
Warhammer: RVR (this isn't really unique, but they tried to implement it in a different way)
SWTOR: completely voiced over story.
GW2: 1 job can play any role.

All these games have 1 thing in common for me..... I don't play them anymore. Having something unique does not mean you have a good game.
what FF XIV ARR does for me, is take some familiar mmo aspects, and combines them in a FF world. That's good enough for me.
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#386 Jun 25 2013 at 3:58 AM Rating: Good
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Cross-game chat with XI will likely never happen. XI is too ingrained into POL and its convoluted systems, whereas XIV is mercifully independent of such.
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#387 Jun 25 2013 at 4:02 AM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:
Cross-game chat with XI will likely never happen. XI is too ingrained into POL and its convoluted systems, whereas XIV is mercifully independent of such.


Again, the link between XI and XIV is the Square Enix ID. If they were to implement something it would be independent of POL anyway.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#388 Jun 25 2013 at 5:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Seriha wrote:
Cross-game chat with XI will likely never happen. XI is too ingrained into POL and its convoluted systems, whereas XIV is mercifully independent of such.


Again, the link between XI and XIV is the Square Enix ID. If they were to implement something it would be independent of POL anyway.


PS2 Limitations? Smiley: laugh
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#389 Jun 25 2013 at 6:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
Materia is basically the GEM system in WOW..... How is it unique ? How is crafting unique ? It's crafting... Smiley: lol yeah gathering is unique.... No other game has gathering.... Smiley: lol Oh yeah dungeons being part of the story... Did not happen in EQ2 nor in Wow, nor in rift, nor in Gw2 nor in swotor.... Smiley: lol

I sometimes do not know how some of you can post stuff like that with a straight face


Can you triple meld gear in WoW? Does the gear you're wearing get spiritbound to you, and then you can convert it into gems? No? That's how it's unique. Oh, and also... the Gem system in WoW is basically based off the materia system in FFVII (XIV's materia system is based off VII's materia system, hence why it's called materia and not gems or sockets Smiley: rolleyes)

How is crafting not unique? Have you ever seen another system like what FFXIV offers? I'm not saying there aren't other games with in-depth crafting systems, but I've never seen one like FFXIV, nor have I seen a gathering system as unique.

When exactly are dungeons part of the storyline in WoW or Rift or GW2 or Swtor? Are you required at any point to do them in order to proceed with the storyline, because I sure as heck don't remember that. I know for a fact it's not the case in swtor, gw2, or rift... and I certainly don't remember it being required in WoW (I stopped at WotLK). It's optional, and definitely not necessary starting at level 15. FFXIV makes the dungeons a mandatory part of the leveling experience, at least if you want to have any semblance of the story and not take a billion years to level on mobs, leves, and FATEs.

I sometimes do not know how you can post stuff like this and think it somehow strengthens your argument.

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 8:32am by BartelX
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#390 Jun 25 2013 at 6:21 AM Rating: Decent
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It seems Filth and Ostia won't be satisfied until XIV is a First Person Action Adventure RTS that allows time-traveling space pony mounts with rainbow lasers that shoot from their horns for unique in-air pvp combat.

Now THAT would be unique, right? 14 tried unique. IT didn't work. I didn't like "different just to be different." The Secret World also tried to be unique. Would you cal that a success?

It's an MMO, and at the end of the day, I want MORE MMO, not less. Stop faulting the game for being an MMORPG.
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#391 Jun 25 2013 at 6:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
time-traveling space pony mounts with rainbow lasers that shoot from their horns



Shut up and take my money!
#392 Jun 25 2013 at 7:20 AM Rating: Good
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New dude here, although I've been following the game for a while. (Took a look back in 2010, then tried out WoW after the first iteration of FF XIV got so much bad press.)

Regardless, I've really enjoyed reading y'alls impressions and accompanying debate. Both the praise and the worries have gotten me excited for the potential of this game. Which leads me to my question.

The two things that drove me to WoW a few years ago was the community (believe it or not) and the character customization at max level. Now, FF XIV seemingly already has the community aspect in spades (on both sides of the developer line). However, what about character customization at max level? This is something I haven't really seen a lot written on yet. In WoW (for example) there was a lot of customization in talents and spec. What will my make my max level Paladin or Warrior different from all the others? I understand gear and stats make me numerically different, but I'm talking in terms of abilities, etc. I honestly couldn't care less about mounts or cool-looking armor. I'm an ability and numbers junkie who enjoys crunching numbers and trying out different approaches to a boss to see what ability set is going to help me tank better. Keep in mind I'm never going to be a super-hardcore raider or anything.

Or is it too early in the development cycle to wonder about such things?

Anyhow, thanks for the feedback y'all.
#393 Jun 25 2013 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
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Yotis wrote:
New dude here, although I've been following the game for a while. (Took a look back in 2010, then tried out WoW after the first iteration of FF XIV got so much bad press.)

Regardless, I've really enjoyed reading y'alls impressions and accompanying debate. Both the praise and the worries have gotten me excited for the potential of this game. Which leads me to my question.

The two things that drove me to WoW a few years ago was the community (believe it or not) and the character customization at max level. Now, FF XIV seemingly already has the community aspect in spades (on both sides of the developer line). However, what about character customization at max level? This is something I haven't really seen a lot written on yet. In WoW (for example) there was a lot of customization in talents and spec. What will my make my max level Paladin or Warrior different from all the others? I understand gear and stats make me numerically different, but I'm talking in terms of abilities, etc. I honestly couldn't care less about mounts or cool-looking armor. I'm an ability and numbers junkie who enjoys crunching numbers and trying out different approaches to a boss to see what ability set is going to help me tank better. Keep in mind I'm never going to be a super-hardcore raider or anything.

Or is it too early in the development cycle to wonder about such things?

Anyhow, thanks for the feedback y'all.


At level 50, you will be able to equip 5 cross-class abilities from other calsses you have leveled onto your paladin to make it unique. For instance, you could equip cure, protect, and stoneskin from a conjurer, or foresight, bloodbath, and mercy stroke from a marauder. I'm not exactly sure all of the different cross-class abilities that will be available, but there should be plenty of options for those 5 slots to make you feel unique, and to also swap in and out based on circumstance.

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 9:34am by BartelX
#394 Jun 25 2013 at 8:10 AM Rating: Decent
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At level 50, you will be able to equip 5 cross-class abilities from other calsses you have leveled onto your paladin to make it unique. For instance, you could equip cure, protect, and stoneskin from a conjurer, or foresight, bloodbath, and mercy stroke from a marauder. I'm not exactly sure all of the different cross-class abilities that will be available, but there should be plenty of options for those 5 slots to make you feel unique, and to also swap in and out based on circumstance.


Ah. That was something I've missed while researching. So that also gives me an incentive to level up other classes. That sounds interesting.

Will more classes be added in the updates to come? Or just jobs?

Thanks for the reply.
#395 Jun 25 2013 at 8:38 AM Rating: Good
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Both jobs and classes will be added at some point. They've said that the first batch of new jobs/classes should be out before the first expansion, so I'd guess we will see them about 6 months to a year after launch. There's been a lot of speculation as to what jobs they will add, nothing entirely confirmed, but I'd wager that sam/thf/nin (at least one or more of those) will be in.
#396 Jun 25 2013 at 8:40 AM Rating: Good
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They'll probably do a leisurely pace with further classes, and they will likely also come with expansions. FFXI had 6 basic jobs and 6 advanced jobs originally, which has since increased to 22 different available jobs. Four jobs were added with the first expansion (one was added outside of the expansion, actually, so people could play it without buying the expansion), three with the third expansion, and two each with the fourth and fifth expansions.

It's quite feasible that ARR will follow this same pattern. We'll probably see a new class/job with each expansion, and they very well may add in more jobs to branch off different classes, too.

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 10:40am by Catwho
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#397 Jun 25 2013 at 9:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Interesting. Seems like a pretty deep system. I think I might need to read up on FF XI's classes and jobs. The only experience I've had with FF jobs is FF Tactics from way back when. I'm not sure that applies here.

Thanks for the info.

#398 Jun 25 2013 at 9:12 AM Rating: Good
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XI's system has 22 unique jobs, and then each of those can strap on any of the other jobs as a "support" job and gain exactly 1/2 of the subjob's abilities, traits, and spells. So I usually run around as a 99 bard with the support job of 49 white mage. Or 99 thief with a support job of 49 dancer.Or a 99 blue mage with a support job of 49 ninja.

The system allowed for an amazing amount of flexibility and made it so jobs could adjust their skills and abilities to each situation. Each job could strap on any of the other jobs as a subjob, although in reality only 2-3 are used on a regular basis.
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#399 Jun 25 2013 at 9:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Materia is basically the GEM system in WOW..... How is it unique ? How is crafting unique ? It's crafting... yeah gathering is unique.... No other game has gathering.... Oh yeah dungeons being part of the story... Did not happen in EQ2 nor in Wow, nor in rift, nor in Gw2 nor in swotor....


Are you serious dude? How is materia unique? There is no other game that I've played, seen or read about that allows you to make use of your old gear in a way that FFXIV does. Most games after you're done with a piece of gear you either vendor it because it is soulbound and can't be traded or put it on the AH. This game gives the player more choices with what to do with that used gear than I've ever seen.

Crafting - Duh. But since you apparently think that it's similar to any other game where you literally select the recipe, click a button and wait for a few seconds, I'll break it down for you - Crafters. Have. Active. Abilities. Whether or not I get an HQ craft is not just a function of luck. I have to assess the stability of my creation and consciously utilize the skills I have to balance between quality, progress and durability.

Gathering, again - Duh. Active abilities man. Right, other games allow you to locate resource nodes. But other games do not allow you to have a way to actively determine: what resource you get from the node, the chance of gathering success and the quality of said resource once gathered. Also, most games require that you can defeat monsters in the area you wish to harvest from. Enter - Stealth. Gatherers are self sustaining.

Your posts are absurd. You're clearly a troll. And your laughing faces don't give your weak counterpoints any credibility or make them anymore valid. It's like someone saying the earth is flat laughing at someone who knows it is not...

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 11:31am by Kashius1138
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#400 Jun 25 2013 at 9:37 AM Rating: Default
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Kashius1138 wrote:
Are you serious dude? How is materia unique? There is no other game that I've played, seen or read about that allows you to make use of your old gear in a way that FFXIV does. Most games after you're done with a piece of gear you either vendor it because it is soulbound and can't be traded or put it on the AH. This game gives the player more choices with what to do with that used gear than I've ever seen.


There are actually quite a few MMORPGs which let you break down equipment into upgrade materials.
#401 Jun 25 2013 at 9:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
Kashius1138 wrote:
Are you serious dude? How is materia unique? There is no other game that I've played, seen or read about that allows you to make use of your old gear in a way that FFXIV does. Most games after you're done with a piece of gear you either vendor it because it is soulbound and can't be traded or put it on the AH. This game gives the player more choices with what to do with that used gear than I've ever seen.


There are actually quite a few MMORPGs which let you break down equipment into upgrade materials.



It would be best for your argument if you also mention what MMOs you are talking about.


On a side note I know that lineage 2 would let you break down your equipment in crystals and those would let you upgrade your armor/weapon or build a new one etc.
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