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Beta 3 Wins!Follow

#1 Jun 15 2013 at 5:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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After several months on the beta forums which, it is safe to say, have been a battle ground between the white knights who would accept anything SE threw at them and the haters who detested everything about the game, the tide has turned!

I'm one who always tries to ignore the best 10% and the worst 10% of opinions, the truth generally lies between these two extremes but the beta forums at the moment are awash with positivity, even from those who have hated on previous releases of the beta test.

There is a thread with 18 (count-em) pages of posts so far and every single one is either praising SE and the game, or eating some humble pie and expressing surprise at how this has been pulled out of the bag.

Yes, the game still has issues for some. The combat rotations could do with being a little more complex and based around the particular enemy you are fighting but most people progressing through the game at level 20+ are reporting that it does get more complex. The storylines are epic, the graphics are great (on a good machine), but most of all - the game is fun.

I have been erring on the positive side of this release. I was really enjoying 1.23 and so concerned what ARR was going to offer (whilst recognising the need for it in order to attract more players). Early betas were fun but perhaps did not seem to have enough but I was willing to wait to see what changes were made as SE listened to the community. They have delivered (in my opinion).

The negative comments are now in a significant minority and it seems that Beta 3 wins!
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#2 Jun 15 2013 at 5:29 PM Rating: Default
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A thread started by a white knight in the beta official forums.... Yeah that's an indicator of the middle ground Smiley: lol
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#3 Jun 15 2013 at 5:51 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
A thread started by a white knight in the beta official forums.... Yeah that's an indicator of the middle ground Smiley: lol


I am no white knight - in fact I have been accused of quite the opposite on the beta forums (neither side like me because I am not extreme enough).

The fact is, I have been a fence sitter, and I still think there are some issues with the game (whilst enjoying it) but my post was about the community view expressed in the official beta forums which has been a fight up til now but seems to be coming down on the positive side now.

During beta phases, only those hating the game would post (people having fun playing dont post on the forums - there is no time). Now the overwhelming sense is of change. People are having fun despite the remaining "imperfections". I am starting to become a white knight now, but I have not been to date :-)
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#4 Jun 15 2013 at 7:12 PM Rating: Decent
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I am not talking about you, when i said white knight, i was speaking on the meter of the thread, a thread created in the official beta forums, is not a view of the majority of the MMO community. That is all i am saying, also those that post on the beta forums, are hard core FFXIV fans, this game could be worse than 1.0(Which is not btw) and they would still defend it. That is all i am saying.
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#5 Jun 15 2013 at 9:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
I am not talking about you, when i said white knight, i was speaking on the meter of the thread, a thread created in the official beta forums, is not a view of the majority of the MMO community. That is all i am saying, also those that post on the beta forums, are hard core FFXIV fans, this game could be worse than 1.0(Which is not btw) and they would still defend it. That is all i am saying.


Fair enough Ostia - sorry, I misunderstood you.

I hope you are finding some of the changes fun.
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#6 Jun 15 2013 at 10:23 PM Rating: Decent
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HallieXIV wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I am not talking about you, when i said white knight, i was speaking on the meter of the thread, a thread created in the official beta forums, is not a view of the majority of the MMO community. That is all i am saying, also those that post on the beta forums, are hard core FFXIV fans, this game could be worse than 1.0(Which is not btw) and they would still defend it. That is all i am saying.


Fair enough Ostia - sorry, I misunderstood you.

I hope you are finding some of the changes fun.


I did actually, i at first hated the idea of how dungeons where locked by quests and not levels, but after doing the quest itself, it seems pretty easy and it does shed some light into the dungeon lore etc etc. Instead of being "Just go in kill Stuff!"
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#7 Jun 15 2013 at 10:45 PM Rating: Decent
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HallieXIV wrote:
I'm one who always tries to ignore the best 10% and the worst 10% of opinions, the truth generally lies between these two extremes but the beta forums at the moment are awash with positivity, even from those who have hated on previous releases of the beta test.


ITT: The truth lies between differing opinions... Kappa

Just to note, my slice of humble pie is still on chill. I will give SE and Yoshi a lot of credit, but I can't do that without also acknowledging that it's taken 9 years to bring it to fruition. Is it still as surprising considering the time and money spent? Perhaps. Perhaps not. I'm still reserving judgement until the final launch version is released.

I'm sure I've secured the tag as the 'hater' you speak of in your post, but I could easily deflect the same "It's just a beta" argument back at the white knights who happily spewed it back in 2010 awaiting the miracle patch. I'd be lying if I said it wouldn't make the humble pie sweeter if I could add my special dark troll knight whipped topping all over it and throw it in their faces, but I honestly would like to see the game succeed regardless of whether or not I decide it's something for me.



Edited, Jun 16th 2013 12:46am by FilthMcNasty
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#8 Jun 16 2013 at 1:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
HallieXIV wrote:
I'm one who always tries to ignore the best 10% and the worst 10% of opinions, the truth generally lies between these two extremes but the beta forums at the moment are awash with positivity, even from those who have hated on previous releases of the beta test.


ITT: The truth lies between differing opinions... Kappa

Just to note, my slice of humble pie is still on chill. I will give SE and Yoshi a lot of credit, but I can't do that without also acknowledging that it's taken 9 years to bring it to fruition. Is it still as surprising considering the time and money spent? Perhaps. Perhaps not. I'm still reserving judgement until the final launch version is released.

I'm sure I've secured the tag as the 'hater' you speak of in your post, but I could easily deflect the same "It's just a beta" argument back at the white knights who happily spewed it back in 2010 awaiting the miracle patch. I'd be lying if I said it wouldn't make the humble pie sweeter if I could add my special dark troll knight whipped topping all over it and throw it in their faces, but I honestly would like to see the game succeed regardless of whether or not I decide it's something for me.



Edited, Jun 16th 2013 12:46am by FilthMcNasty


So your slice of pie is still on chill because it took them 9 years to make it? I am confused. The question is simple did you or did you not like the game's current state. Either it's a yes or no i would like to see the reason behind it.

For me after phase 2 and phase 3 i must say that it's a game that i can see myself paying to play. Some things could change i agree but there is nothing in there to be so bad or so wrong to make me hate it or making me not want to play it.

Little i care if it took them 9 years to make it. And to be honest it didn't take Yoshi 9 years to make it and we are looking at a game made by Yoshi "not" SE (if you get what i mean).

If i am called white knight for what i wrote (and i doubt that i am one) so be it but being a guy that didn't play 1.0 and watching the game as is for the first time in phase 2 i am pleased with what i see.
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#9 Jun 16 2013 at 2:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Teravibe wrote:
So your slice of pie is still on chill because it took them 9 years to make it? I am confused. The question is simple did you or did you not like the game's current state. Either it's a yes or no i would like to see the reason behind it.


Generally you eat the pie for making an error or grave misjudgement. To be honest, it wouldn't apply here because I never flat out stated that XIV would fail. I did call that XIV would flop at it's initial launch and dismissed the mythical miracle patch so in that sense I was right, but I'm willing to take a few bites for being doubtful that XIV could come back from it's first failure to become something exceptional.

As to your question, I said in several other threads including this one that I am reserving judgement about XIV post ARR alpha because I would like to give Yoshi and his team a fair shake. In the 1.0 alpha it was clear well before release date was even announced that the game was far, far from what players would find acceptable. I checked in occasionally (usually in spurts following major version updates) to check on the game's progress, but stopped shortly after subscription started. The answer is that I can't really answer your question because I have put off playing until release.

I can speculate that in it's current form, XIV would not be a game I would find myself playing if they do decide to stick to the subscription model. The main reason would be the battle system (basing this solely on how it was presented during ARR alpha). I did read that this is expected to change which is why I will put off a final decision until I see where it leads. If Yoshi and crew can make solid progress toward something I might find enjoyable I would likely give them the benefit of the doubt and play ARR.

Teravibe wrote:
Little i care if it took them 9 years to make it. And to be honest it didn't take Yoshi 9 years to make it and we are looking at a game made by Yoshi "not" SE (if you get what i mean).

The 9 years of development is a factor for me for two reasons:
1) There are many(almost all) other options which put forth a more solid presentation in less time.
2) If ARR is not even on the same level(matter of personal opinion of course) as those after having much more time to refine it then it wouldn't be worth it to me even if it were F2P.

No, the game was not under the direction of Yoshi from the beginning of it's development. I will only attribute those changes that were made by Yoshi directly to his credit. In fairness though, what he did keep gave him a healthy headstart over someone who would be starting from day one so he should be held accountable for some of it. Some or perhaps all of what they kept was forced on him due to time/money constraints, but he stepped into those shoes willingly. He deserves credit for what he's done thus far and I commend him for it, but there will be no sympathy. I'm sure he wouldn't want it anyway.

People confuse optimism and pessimism for white knighting or trolling respectively. An opinion is just an opinion. You're not white knighting because you aren't really defending anything for no reason. It's one thing to base your opinions on progress you have witnessed. It's something completely different if you were to try and defeat someone's opinion that the current battle system isn't enjoyable based solely on the fact that there are changes coming in the future, especially without being completely clear on the details.

I will say that most people who were called trolls or dark knights were only people who had valid complaints based on observation. Most of the people who were called white knights were talking about future changes that weren't actually made yet(and in some cases at all) or just dismissing opinions because they came without constructive criticism. You don't have to know how to repair something to know that it's broken.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#10 Jun 16 2013 at 3:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Teravibe wrote:
So your slice of pie is still on chill because it took them 9 years to make it? I am confused. The question is simple did you or did you not like the game's current state. Either it's a yes or no i would like to see the reason behind it.


Generally you eat the pie for making an error or grave misjudgement. To be honest, it wouldn't apply here because I never flat out stated that XIV would fail. I did call that XIV would flop at it's initial launch and dismissed the mythical miracle patch so in that sense I was right, but I'm willing to take a few bites for being doubtful that XIV could come back from it's first failure to become something exceptional.

As to your question, I said in several other threads including this one that I am reserving judgement about XIV post ARR alpha because I would like to give Yoshi and his team a fair shake. In the 1.0 alpha it was clear well before release date was even announced that the game was far, far from what players would find acceptable. I checked in occasionally (usually in spurts following major version updates) to check on the game's progress, but stopped shortly after subscription started. The answer is that I can't really answer your question because I have put off playing until release.

I can speculate that in it's current form, XIV would not be a game I would find myself playing if they do decide to stick to the subscription model. The main reason would be the battle system (basing this solely on how it was presented during ARR alpha). I did read that this is expected to change which is why I will put off a final decision until I see where it leads. If Yoshi and crew can make solid progress toward something I might find enjoyable I would likely give them the benefit of the doubt and play ARR.

Teravibe wrote:
Little i care if it took them 9 years to make it. And to be honest it didn't take Yoshi 9 years to make it and we are looking at a game made by Yoshi "not" SE (if you get what i mean).

The 9 years of development is a factor for me for two reasons:
1) There are many(almost all) other options which put forth a more solid presentation in less time.
2) If ARR is not even on the same level(matter of personal opinion of course) as those after having much more time to refine it then it wouldn't be worth it to me even if it were F2P.

No, the game was not under the direction of Yoshi from the beginning of it's development. I will only attribute those changes that were made by Yoshi directly to his credit. In fairness though, what he did keep gave him a healthy headstart over someone who would be starting from day one so he should be held accountable for some of it. Some or perhaps all of what they kept was forced on him due to time/money constraints, but he stepped into those shoes willingly. He deserves credit for what he's done thus far and I commend him for it, but there will be no sympathy. I'm sure he wouldn't want it anyway.

People confuse optimism and pessimism for white knighting or trolling respectively. An opinion is just an opinion. You're not white knighting because you aren't really defending anything for no reason. It's one thing to base your opinions on progress you have witnessed. It's something completely different if you were to try and defeat someone's opinion that the current battle system isn't enjoyable based solely on the fact that there are changes coming in the future, especially without being completely clear on the details.

I will say that most people who were called trolls or dark knights were only people who had valid complaints based on observation. Most of the people who were called white knights were talking about future changes that weren't actually made yet(and in some cases at all) or just dismissing opinions because they came without constructive criticism. You don't have to know how to repair something to know that it's broken.


Fair enough a well made post.

I understand from where you come from and i see your point for not pay for it if it's not what you want.

On a different note can not understand how people don't like the battle system to be honest. For me it had issues in phase 2 and i stated it a lot but in phase 3 it feels somehow better, more smooth. Can't really pin point what they fixed but it feels better for me at least. I just don't get it really. But if that's how people think there is nothing i can do it's their opinion. I have pretty "decent" standards for when picking a game so i guess other people have higher ones. I hear people keep saying it's too easy something that i don't completely agree with and even more when Yoshi and higher level players say that it gets harder. I really don't know what they expect but then again i didn't play XI much nor 1.0 XIV.


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#11 Jun 16 2013 at 3:19 AM Rating: Decent
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@ Teravibe,

I agree with all your comments except the reference to people's standards and the suggestion that some have higher standards and so may not like this game.

It is not a matter of having high or low standards, it is a matter of personal tastes and choices. I agree with earlier posters that the phase 2 combat needed improvement, I was also confident that there would be improvements due to Yoshi-P saying various times that the combat was being revised significantly for beta 3 and indeed that build had been in parallel development with Beta 2 since Alpha.

If people don't like the combat in Beta 3 (so far) that does not mean they have higher standards, just that what makes a good combat system in an MMORPG is different for them compared with others.

I really enjoyed FFXI for many years and loved the combat but eventually it got tiresome and I went and played WOW for a while. I really enjoyed Version 1 since around 1.23 patch and thought the combat there was great - others would disagree.

ARR is never going to satisfy everyone because of the varying tastes of individuals - the question is will it satisfy enough people to make the game viable. I had not made up my mind fully after phase 2, but I have some confidence after phase 3.

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#12 Jun 16 2013 at 3:35 AM Rating: Decent
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@OP
concerning:
Quote:
Beta 3 Wins!

I think you could have left it at that, and saved you some precious lifetime.
Because really, that's all there is to say about it.
#13 Jun 16 2013 at 3:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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At first I wasn't sure how I felt about the game. I suppose my expectations were off, not super high or anything, but not exactly what the game actually was. After changing classes a couple times I found myself enjoying the experience more and more. Using Cross-Class abilities is pretty awesome, although some I feel should be available to all classes (fight or flight for instance).

Questing on your first job makes leveling a breeze, however going back and leveling a different job is a lot slower, even with the hunter's log. At first the change of pace annoyed me, but then I realized that the past at which i was going is just about what I was wanting from this game. The main quest lines give casual players their time to shine on their preferred job while more hardcore grinders can get their fill.

My biggest beef with the game is being forced to start in a city based on your job. I know why they are doing this, but I really wanted to experience Limsa's storyline as a job of my choosing. It also seems like where you starts ends up being your "Nation" which irks me as well. This also lead to a complete lack of quests in the other starting areas which would have been nice to experience with my friends without having to play a job I didn't care for.

Other than those issues I didn't really have a problem with much else. The game's pacing after 8ish is much to my liking. The major event and class quests are amusing but some (such as pugilist's lvl 15) might need to have the AI tweaked a bit. All of the tutorial quests bugged me and and I ended up skipping all of the dialogue/cutscenes for my quests... I guess It will give me something new to go along with my experince during open/early access. Yes, I am going buy this game :D. I don't know if it will be something I end up playing for as long as I did FFXI, but that is up to how well they handle new content. This is a great starting point for a budding MMO, I just hope that it stays strong.


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#14 Jun 16 2013 at 6:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Teravibe wrote:
Fair enough a well made post.

I understand from where you come from and i see your point for not pay for it if it's not what you want.


It's mostly a principle issue. It's hard to justify supporting something with time and money when there are alternatives that provide the same or better service for no cost. It's not that I'm cheap or can't afford to spend the dough, just that I feel dirty for it Smiley: sly

Teravibe wrote:
On a different note can not understand how people don't like the battle system to be honest. For me it had issues in phase 2 and i stated it a lot but in phase 3 it feels somehow better, more smooth. Can't really pin point what they fixed but it feels better for me at least. I just don't get it really.


For me it's mostly a synergy issue. I'm a strategy gamer more than an RPG player so the battles are a bit stale to me. Personally, I'd like to see more opportunities for group synergy(which may well come in the form of limit break). Generally, SE's battle systems have focused mostly on single players handling specific roles even when in large groups, but it would be nice to see more interaction between players. Instead of your characters positioning in relation to just the mob, add dynamics that change based on positioning in relation to group members and maybe certain elements in the environment.

TERA has a battle system that I really enjoy. The main reason is that it's more reactive than most other games. Your dodging and blocking happens as a direct result of your input. It's as simple as pressing(and holding sometimes) a button, but it's more than just a higher percentage chance to proc an effect. You don't just activate an ability or swap to a piece of gear to lower a mobs chance to land an attack and throw yourself on the mercy of RNG. You have direct control over nearly everything that happens in battle. I can choose to block if I see a nasty attack incoming or I can soak a normal attack that activates a reactive counter attack move at an opportunistic time. It really isn't all that much but it is more control and subsequently, more of a chance to use that control to your advantage and to impact the outcome of a battle.

I understand that RNG is a staple of RPG games since their inception and I don't mind it being included somehow, but it would be nice to see it balanced out with awareness and execution to create more unique situations in battle. There just didn't seem to be much room for that with how the previously implemented battle systems worked in XIV, but I do hope that the coming changes allow for more of it.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#15 Jun 16 2013 at 6:20 AM Rating: Decent
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I played on a ps3, and I have to say it's pretty great what they have managed to accomplish. There is quite a bit of detail, and I find the combat to be really fun. I'm kinad a simple person anyhow.

That being said, the targeting system is pretty rough for the controller. During FATEs, it's almost impossible sometimes to lock onto what you're trying to fight. I don't think the UI colors help with this much, when everybody is gang raping like 10 monsters, and all you see is one big cluster **** of blue and bluish purple.

Playing on a ps3 also brings up some npc problems, in that they don't load right away. You'll be standing in the right spot just waiting, but that less of a complaint.

The fact that I'm even playing this on a ps3 to me in astounding, but I feel like they could sacrifice a little more graphicly, and let the game run a bit smoother, or at least give us graphics sliders?
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#16 Jun 16 2013 at 6:40 AM Rating: Good
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I'm very happy with the improvements that have been made so far. I quit 1.0 after just 1 month, and I was able to see how much better 2.0 was in even alpha testing. Granted, there are still some aspects of the game that I would like to see improved, but overall, I am already sold on 2.0. Playing beta has been a lot of fun!

Edit: I thought I was going to be ****** about elemental weaknesses being removed, but I think that they are headed in the right direction to compensate for that with the spell effects; although, there is still some room for improvement in that regard.

Edited, Jun 16th 2013 8:45am by schneiderw

Edited, Jun 16th 2013 8:47am by schneiderw
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