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How are you all handling marauder's TP starvation?Follow

#1 Jun 16 2013 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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In trying to keep the 15 dungeons going at a nice pace, I had a hard time staying above 500 tp. I tried to spend the back half of the fights just autoattacking, but that can be dangerous eventually when things get harder. Even in the ifrit fight, just doing the stdps rotation (Mine went like...Fracture->Heavy Swing->Maim->Heavy Swing->Skull Sunder->Heavy Swing->Skull sunder->Back to Fracture), the TP pool would only last about half way into the fight.

Are you supposed to take breaks from your rotations? Maybe the rotations will fill out with more abilities that cost less TP I guess...
I switched to lancer and the thing almost can't run out of tp XD

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 5:02pm by Wint Lock Thread: This isn't going anywhere good anymore.
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#2 Jun 16 2013 at 1:36 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm confused. Is the Ifrit battle in the beta? Or are you talking about 1.23? If so, are you talking 1.23 for dungeons as well? Please elaborate.
#3 Jun 16 2013 at 1:49 PM Rating: Default
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I think the Ifrit fight was in the Beta?

I don't understand why you would want to keep your TP above 500, is there a bonus if you do?

Edited, Jun 16th 2013 3:49pm by supermegazeke
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#4 Jun 16 2013 at 2:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Ifirit is lvl 20 story mission and is in beta. If you saw anyone controlling their own chocobo they had to fight ifirit 1st. No loot just story mission.

As far as MRD TP I didn't have much trouble outside of tanking.

Edited, Jun 16th 2013 4:09pm by Strifefish

Edited, Jun 16th 2013 4:10pm by Strifefish
#5 Jun 16 2013 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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Once you get into the higher tier battles, you'll need to focus on making your to last throughout the entire battle and not just spam your skills. This is pretty much what yoshi p was talking about when it gets more complicated when you get past the initial quests and get further into the battle system.
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#6 Jun 16 2013 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
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benjjjamin wrote:
In trying to keep the 15 dungeons going at a nice pace, I had a hard time staying above 500 tp. I tried to spend the back half of the fights just autoattacking, but that can be dangerous eventually when things get harder. Even in the ifrit fight, just doing the stdps rotation (Mine went like...Fracture->Heavy Swing->Maim->Heavy Swing->Skull Sunder->Heavy Swing->Skull sunder->Back to Fracture), the TP pool would only last about half way into the fight.

Are you supposed to take breaks from your rotations? Maybe the rotations will fill out with more abilities that cost less TP I guess...
I switched to lancer and the thing almost can't run out of tp XD


Yoshi-P's probably looking at it from the endgame view when everyone has all buffs and whatnot. In that situation a Bard granting Paeon of War plus any other possible forms of TP regeneration helps immensely. It could also be that Marauder's TP costs will be adjusted or that they give traits/etc. that increase the rate of generation without going overboard.

Who knows?

There's also the fact that I don't think you're supposed to be taking "breaks" from your rotation so much as the probable need to delay abilities a second or two to "space out" the damage so that you're not starved and are doing a good consistent amount of damage over the course of a fight. As gear gets better and fights get shorter (i.e. farm status) you can step up the speed of your combos slightly when you know you're not going to be starved.

At least, that's how it looks like to me: not so much as running until you've drained the well but spacing out the withdrawals so there's a continual flow.
#7 Jun 16 2013 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
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The game stops you from spamming for a few seconds and you think there's a problem.

Love it.
#8 Jun 16 2013 at 4:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Have to actually agree with Killua on this, because that was one of the big complaints about solo battle and combat in early levels. TP refills quickly when you're alone. And those of use from earlier phases warned that it gets harder and tougher in dungeons and you will, actually, start to have issues with it.

TP in battle is restored at a steady pace, and I believe you can get gear that will speed up the regen process eventually. It just means you have to use it judiciously and to the best effect and not merely spam the same two abilities over and over again.

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#9 Jun 16 2013 at 5:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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someone kill me... I just rated Killua up even if his tone was a bit rude...

MP management... TP management... welcome to FF
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#10 Jun 16 2013 at 5:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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I rated him up as well... now excuse me while I go wash my left mouse button. Aside from that I love it.

Yoshi himself stated that TP is a finite resource and once you run out you're in trouble. I love how it works ^^
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#11 Jun 16 2013 at 6:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Hmm so it's still relatively slow paced battles as the theme I guess. I'll have to see what it feels like once I get some other non-tp OGCD abilities to fill in the spare time. It doesn't feel right to wait for TP while only doing a single target dps rotation on tank. I can see not being able to spam Overpower in AoE mode, but it feels a little expensive for single target marauder. Game feels like it's on the brink of being able to spam abilities with the proper buffs. Maybe that'll be an advantage of a full party later on.

Coming over from rift where there was no holding back on any role, it feels like a big speed bump. But compared to XI it is a fair bit more occupying.
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#12 Jun 16 2013 at 9:42 PM Rating: Good
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benjjjamin wrote:
Hmm so it's still relatively slow paced battles as the theme I guess. I'll have to see what it feels like once I get some other non-tp OGCD abilities to fill in the spare time. It doesn't feel right to wait for TP while only doing a single target dps rotation on tank. I can see not being able to spam Overpower in AoE mode, but it feels a little expensive for single target marauder. Game feels like it's on the brink of being able to spam abilities with the proper buffs. Maybe that'll be an advantage of a full party later on.

Coming over from rift where there was no holding back on any role, it feels like a big speed bump. But compared to XI it is a fair bit more occupying.


Considering what I saw of 1.0 boss fights I'd hardly call the fights slowly paced. No, it's more of a system -- to *ME* personally at least -- that seems to offer two speeds of killing and actually sounds interesting.

Take what I saw of the high level Ifrit fights: they have the boss to deal damage on and the spire structures that spawn and need to be burned ASAP. You have the slight slower and steady combat mechanics on Ifrit himself while there exists burn phases on the spires where you chain ability combos as quickly as you can. Once then burns are over you reign back on TP consumption in case you need it again, etc.

It seems more of a give and take system and I wouldn't be surprised if you're correct. The amount of carnage potential a class had in FFXI was directly proportional to how many buffs you got from other players, so the same happening here wouldn't strike me as unusual.
#13 Jun 16 2013 at 11:25 PM Rating: Decent
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The general population will not like sitting there with no tp. Other MMO's have tried it. In Rift, for example, the compromise was that you could not go all out by yourself or in a normal party, but with a support job in the raid, you would essentially unlock raid dps/tanking/healing power unobtainable in a light party or solo.

As much as rate down is being used in the topic, we have a lot of FFXI players who like the idea of people exhausting MP and TP. I'm just saying it won't fly that well for the general population to sit there waiting for auto attack to replenish their pools in raid setting, and it's not the most active system in the world to consciously have to wait to do a simple single target dps rotation.

There were specs in Rift capable of outstripping even raid regain, but that was only in the harshest of AoE expenditure.

As a gauge for how slow paced this is, the GCD in rift is 0.75 to 1 second, with about twice the off global cooldown abilities actionable and reactive abilities on top of that.

That's supposedly to give you time to think about your next move, as stated in the direction of the game posts on the beta forum. So long as it's just not to be slow because fast is bad, that's fine. But it doesn't take me 2.5 seconds to think of my next move....especially if my next move is going to be 3 autoattacks.

I don't see the point in conscientious TP conservation, espectially if MP seems to be in unlimited supply.
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#14 Jun 16 2013 at 11:42 PM Rating: Good
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benjjjamin wrote:
The general population will not like sitting there with no tp. Other MMO's have tried it. In Rift, for example, the compromise was that you could not go all out by yourself or in a normal party, but with a support job in the raid, you would essentially unlock raid dps/tanking/healing power unobtainable in a light party or solo.

As much as rate down is being used in the topic, we have a lot of FFXI players who like the idea of people exhausting MP and TP. I'm just saying it won't fly that well for the general population to sit there waiting for auto attack to replenish their pools in raid setting, and it's not the most active system in the world to consciously have to wait to do a simple single target dps rotation.

There were specs in Rift capable of outstripping even raid regain, but that was only in the harshest of AoE expenditure.

As a gauge for how slow paced this is, the GCD in rift is 0.75 to 1 second, with about twice the off global cooldown abilities actionable and reactive abilities on top of that.

That's supposedly to give you time to think about your next move, as stated in the direction of the game posts on the beta forum. So long as it's just not to be slow because fast is bad, that's fine. But it doesn't take me 2.5 seconds to think of my next move....especially if my next move is going to be 3 autoattacks.

I don't see the point in conscientious TP conservation, espectially if MP seems to be in unlimited supply.


In my limited experience in the beta, it all depends on which class you are playing. As of right now(as far as I've encountered), TP has very little to no use to mage classes. I've only played THM to lvl 8, but I didn't use any TP up until then. Why would they even need it really? They concentrate on their MP while those dragoons and marauders can worry about their TP. Yoshi has said that the GCD will seem much faster once you start using the higher level spells and skills. He's mentioned that the GCD will essentially be completely gone by the time the skill animation has finished. We still have yet to try out any real end game dungeons and skills, so we really must take his word for it. Also, if your GCD is too long, invest in some materia that decreases your GCD when release finally comes along. There will be materia that decreases GCD along with materia that decreases weapon skill and spell cast times.

EDIT: As a response to one of Benjj's earlier posts mentioning that the battle speed is already hitting a speed bump, people are already complaining that the battle speed is too fast. You have no idea how much complaining was being done during alpha/beta 1.

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 1:45am by swisa
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#15 Jun 16 2013 at 11:59 PM Rating: Decent
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A quick review of the beta thread titles indicate that at least 3 people think battles are too slow to one who thinks they're too action oriented.
I'm of the persuasion that it is significantly too slow. I cannot imagine the phase 2 beta, when there weren't this "many" ogcd abilities.

In rift, the GCD was 0.75 seconds, and you were popping 1-2 OGCD or reactionary abilities in between each GCD to maximize your effectiveness. Macros would do the grunt work for you, and it was impossible to freehand it was so fast. But the strategy and intelligence came from the order of the macro'ing. Not in the decision on what ability to use next.

I'm not a fan of considering any decision of what ability to use next in this game as "strategy." I'm not seeing anything cerebral here. I do, however, see slow as molasses gameplay by modern comparison.

Maybe raid settings and gear will take that GCD down by half. I hope so.

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 2:00am by benjjjamin
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#16 Jun 17 2013 at 6:56 AM Rating: Decent
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benjjjamin wrote:
In trying to keep the 15 dungeons going at a nice pace, I had a hard time staying above 500 tp. I tried to spend the back half of the fights just autoattacking, but that can be dangerous eventually when things get harder. Even in the ifrit fight, just doing the stdps rotation (Mine went like...Fracture->Heavy Swing->Maim->Heavy Swing->Skull Sunder->Heavy Swing->Skull sunder->Back to Fracture), the TP pool would only last about half way into the fight.

Are you supposed to take breaks from your rotations? Maybe the rotations will fill out with more abilities that cost less TP I guess...
I switched to lancer and the thing almost can't run out of tp XD


You have to manage your TP, same some for important abilities, auto attack a bit.
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#17 Jun 17 2013 at 7:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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benjjjamin wrote:
I don't see the point in conscientious TP conservation, espectially if MP seems to be in unlimited supply.


So basically, you don't see the point in battle tactics for DPS classes. That's pretty much what I got from reading this thread. You run out of TP, and instead of learning how to conserve it and use it efficiently, you just bash the game for not being like Rift, where you can constantly spam to your hearts content. I hate to use this saying, but I feel like I have to... if you want the combat to be like Rift, go play Rift. I'm actually excited to get to a point where I'll have to manage my TP effectively. At low levels you can just spam away and never worry about it, so it will be a nice bonus to not be constantly sitting at 1k tp.

Also, I have to ask... have you leveled every class to the beta cap to see if there are cross-class abilities that might help your TP regen? I'm pretty sure lancer has at least a couple that would help you out. Not to mention, we aren't even able to level to 50 yet, and we aren't even able to play jobs (or is it classes, I always get em confused). Who's to say TP regeneration isn't considerably better for jobs? Or maybe even the support jobs will add better TP regen for a party dynamic. We don't know yet.

It just seems like you've condemned the system already without knowing hardly anything about it. And how could you? Most of it isn't even available in-game yet.

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 9:13am by BartelX
#18 Jun 17 2013 at 7:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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MP isn't unlimited, the longer the fight lasts the more you get drained. I had to use ethers several times on FATEs, especially when there were not very many people participating.
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#19 Jun 17 2013 at 9:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
Not to mention, we aren't even able to level to 50 yet, and we aren't even able to play jobs (or is it classes, I always get em confused).


Just think of it in terms of WoW, Rift, Diablo 2, or SWTOR (if you've ever played either of those games).

The Paladin/Cleric/Necromancer/Jedi Consular is the class, just like Marauder, Gladiator, or Conjurer in FFXIV.

The Retribution/Cabalist/Bone/Sage aspect is a specialized branch of the above mentioned class, like Warrior, Paladin, or White Mage.

Class = the base of the tree.

Job = the branches of that tree.


Edited, Jun 17th 2013 11:24am by Viertel
#20 Jun 17 2013 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
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Viertel wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Not to mention, we aren't even able to level to 50 yet, and we aren't even able to play jobs (or is it classes, I always get em confused).


Just think of it in terms of WoW, Rift, Diablo 2, or SWTOR (if you've ever played either of those games).

The Paladin/Cleric/Necromancer/Jedi Consular is the class, just like Marauder, Gladiator, or Conjurer in FFXIV.

The Retribution/Cabalist/Bone/Sage aspect is a specialized branch of the above mentioned class, like Warrior, Paladin, or White Mage.

Class = the base of the tree.

Job = the branches of that tree.


Edited, Jun 17th 2013 11:24am by Viertel


Very good explanation. Thank you, rate up. Makes sense... base class, specialized job.
#21 Jun 17 2013 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
benjjjamin wrote:
I don't see the point in conscientious TP conservation, espectially if MP seems to be in unlimited supply.


So basically, you don't see the point in battle tactics for DPS classes. Edited, Jun 17th 2013 9:13am by BartelX


Basically, it's poor game design and standards to call this battle tactics. They should design lower output rotations that have net positive tp gain, as well as high output rotations that burn tp. As opposed to...ya know...having the basic marauder rotation bottom out after a minute and a half.

They can easily do better. You can have your "tactics" and still be provided something to do other than sitting there doing nothing on purpose.
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#22 Jun 17 2013 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
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benjjjamin wrote:
BartelX wrote:
benjjjamin wrote:
I don't see the point in conscientious TP conservation, espectially if MP seems to be in unlimited supply.


So basically, you don't see the point in battle tactics for DPS classes. Edited, Jun 17th 2013 9:13am by BartelX


Basically, it's poor game design and standards to call this battle tactics. They should design lower output rotations that have net positive tp gain, as well as high output rotations that burn tp. As opposed to...ya know...having the basic marauder rotation bottom out after a minute and a half.

They can easily do better. You can have your "tactics" and still be provided something to do other than sitting there doing nothing on purpose.


You're wrong.

A big complaint in early phases was the near limitless supply of tp. Now it's limited and the complaint is "I dont have enough tp!" This is what auto attacks are for. they are your constant supply of dmg.

As War, you should be saving tp for Enmity Generation moves in an emergency, and HP stealing moves, also in an emergency. What you shouldn't do is hit 1 until it's empty and then call it bad mechanics.
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#23 Jun 17 2013 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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benjjjamin wrote:
BartelX wrote:
benjjjamin wrote:
I don't see the point in conscientious TP conservation, espectially if MP seems to be in unlimited supply.


So basically, you don't see the point in battle tactics for DPS classes. Edited, Jun 17th 2013 9:13am by BartelX


Basically, it's poor game design and standards to call this battle tactics. They should design lower output rotations that have net positive tp gain, as well as high output rotations that burn tp. As opposed to...ya know...having the basic marauder rotation bottom out after a minute and a half.

They can easily do better. You can have your "tactics" and still be provided something to do other than sitting there doing nothing on purpose.


Ok, so it's good game design to be able to spam your skills to no end without care whatsoever? Sorry, I disagree. Like I said, maybe if you had actually played some other classes and learned some cross-class skills... like the lancer ability that restores 300tp every 3 minutes, you'd have liked it more. Or maybe if you understood the concept of conservation of resources in a game, you wouldn't have that problem. To me, it just sounds like you don't understand how to manage your abilities well. That's not a fault of the game, it's a fault of the player.
#24 Jun 17 2013 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
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benjjjamin wrote:
BartelX wrote:
benjjjamin wrote:
I don't see the point in conscientious TP conservation, espectially if MP seems to be in unlimited supply.


So basically, you don't see the point in battle tactics for DPS classes. Edited, Jun 17th 2013 9:13am by BartelX


Basically, it's poor game design and standards to call this battle tactics. They should design lower output rotations that have net positive tp gain, as well as high output rotations that burn tp. As opposed to...ya know...having the basic marauder rotation bottom out after a minute and a half.

They can easily do better. You can have your "tactics" and still be provided something to do other than sitting there doing nothing on purpose.


That's the thing. You wont just be standing there doing nothing. If you are, you aren't going to last very long. The later battles(any primal battle for example) will require you to be moving around. You'll be too busy running around the battle field to notice how fast or slow your tp is restoring. If you need an idea of how the battles go closer to end game look up the garuda/ifrit/moogle battles on youtube.
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#25 Jun 17 2013 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
benjjjamin wrote:
BartelX wrote:
benjjjamin wrote:
I don't see the point in conscientious TP conservation, espectially if MP seems to be in unlimited supply.


So basically, you don't see the point in battle tactics for DPS classes. Edited, Jun 17th 2013 9:13am by BartelX


Basically, it's poor game design and standards to call this battle tactics. They should design lower output rotations that have net positive tp gain, as well as high output rotations that burn tp. As opposed to...ya know...having the basic marauder rotation bottom out after a minute and a half.

They can easily do better. You can have your "tactics" and still be provided something to do other than sitting there doing nothing on purpose.


You're wrong.

A big complaint in early phases was the near limitless supply of tp. Now it's limited and the complaint is "I dont have enough tp!" This is what auto attacks are for. they are your constant supply of dmg.

As War, you should be saving tp for Enmity Generation moves in an emergency, and HP stealing moves, also in an emergency. What you shouldn't do is hit 1 until it's empty and then call it bad mechanics.


As a marauder, my simple rotation is fracture->heavy swing->maim->heavy swing->skull sunder->heavy swing->skull sunder->Fracture.
That's not spamming by today's standards. You can't run that without emptying the tank. There's no room for other strategy. High TP rotations (net loss TP) and low TP rotations (net gain TP) are much better solutions than what you propose and what's in phase 3.
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#26 Jun 17 2013 at 12:58 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Ok, so it's good game design to be able to spam your skills to no end without care whatsoever? Sorry, I disagree. Like I said, maybe if you had actually played some other classes and learned some cross-class skills... like the lancer ability that restores 300tp every 3 minutes, you'd have liked it more. Or maybe if you understood the concept of conservation of resources in a game, you wouldn't have that problem. To me, it just sounds like you don't understand how to manage your abilities well. That's not a fault of the game, it's a fault of the player.


So to you it's good game design to stand there. That doesn't make any sense, even if you try to spin standing there as strategy. You're standing there in a video game. Warriors won't be able to use lancer abilities. They can use Invigorate. It will not help much, 300 tp is enough to fuel a simple rotation for less than a minute.

Sounds like the sweet spot for management and strategy for you caps out at standing there. I dunno. This isn't strategy to me. It's just boring. To me, strategy would be to know when to switch to a rotation that gains me tp back, and when to use higher-powered rotations.

If you just want to decide when to start and stop doing things, I suppose that counts as strategy too. Boring. Simple. But strategy.
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