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bought 1.0 and likely skipping ARR, square wants to hear....Follow

#52 Jun 17 2013 at 6:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:


If you pay for a newspaper subscription, you expect to get the news. If instead, tabloids showed up on your doorstep every morning, you would probably ask to have your subscription cancelled if that wasn't what you liked. The difference here is that there was a cost up front. It's like you go to the news stand and buy a TIME magazine, but when you get it home you realize that it's only the cover of a TIME magazine with BOP inside it. I dare you to tell me you wouldn't ask for a refund... Smiley: sly



Except in this case the terms of the newspaper states that the "news" content can change/end at anytime. And you pay knowing that beforehand and or very shortly thereafter.

Also the newspaper gives a year's notice stating that they are going to change into a tabloid, and so you read the newspaper all the way up until that point. Basically getting your money's worth.

Then the newspaper says we're turning into a tabloid now, but you don't have to pay anything extra.

So you have the option of canceling or sticking with a tabloid.

In no alternate universe does the agent who purchased the newspaper expect a refund post facto...well except maybe this one.

---

The duration of use for me is a red flag.

You would have to show malice and deception on the part of SE to claim a refund at this point in the game and I just don't see it.

This may seem like a "grey" issue for some of you, but in reality it leans heavily towards the troll side of the spectrum.

---

In the end, for me, it's not about SE or this game. It's about this weird sense of entitlement (if the OP is not a troll) that people have. When there are FAR greater injustices and shady practices that are going on, than to be refunded $100 three years ago.
#53 Jun 17 2013 at 6:28 PM Rating: Default
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electromagnet83 wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
Failsociety wrote:
Actually, a lot of Legacy users I know are unhappy with ARR, and would not have paid the sub to even become legacy if they had known XIV was going the full route to World of Warcraft. I am Legacy and I thought we were going to get 1.23 with a new graphics engine and some upgrades. Not a whole new game based off what every MMO in the last 8 years has tried and failed.

I do enjoy XIV:ARR, but it is def not what I was expecting at all. 1.23 is/was better in some ways.


I agree (although I was never a hardcore player of FFXIV).

I think 1.23 actually was better in more than a few aspects, and I stand by my opinion that all Yoshi-P needed to do was the new UI, battle animations and effects, then work on new areas and jobs.

It was a much more beautiful game, it didn't have zones, I didn't feel handheld non-stop. The game was lacking but destroying the foundation that they had in favor of a World of Warcraft clone (Yoshi-P's words, not mine) doesn't seem to have been the correct route.

I think it is a bait and switch if you bought 1.23, poured a lot of time into that game, etc. ARR is definitely not FFXIV, so in a sense, he no longer has the product that he paid for. BUT, he's definitely not going to be entitled to any money. Whenever you play online games, you sign digital contracts that protect them from things like that.


Just like many of the problems in this country, don't blame Square-Enix, blame your friends, family, neighbors etc. ARR is as it is because of the countless compiled requests and complaints about 1.0...and even currently 2.0. Perusing through the beta forums I am utterly shocked at the requests contained within "popular" threads. Things evolve due to requests. The game is easier because people thought XI and 1.0 were too hard. The graphics aren't quite as high-res because people complained they couldn't run it. The list goes on and on, yet after all that feedback was taken and addressed it wasn't enough. Now people just complain about the monster they've created.

Once it becomes what everyone wants, nobody wants it...almost as if people enjoy complaining just so that once they have shown their power over the company they can lick their fingers clean and walk away with a greasy smile on their face saying "see company, you're not so big after all."

Square has done an amazing job trying to satisfy all of the minutia of (sometimes ridiculous) complaints and requests. If someone isn't happy still, that person must just be a miserable person in general and only finds the negative in everything.



Edited, Jun 17th 2013 7:56pm by electromagnet83


I honestly don't think Yoshi listened, I think he took those who agreed with where he wanted to go with the game and called it good. This is fine because in the end it's his game. He is looking as most companies do, to bring in the most money. Which is usually by making the content easy, as the masses have shown time and time again they're not fond of anything time consuming or hard. The sad part is, all the casuals he is want to play the game, will. However, after the first couple months they'll realize that it is nothing different from whatever MMO they came from and head back to that MMO. It has happened in every MMO over the last 5-6 years. They become labeled as F2P. However! Luckily! We won't have to worry about that with PS3/PS4 securing an always sub. (Which I loathe F2P games and quit any MMO that hits that status. Besides XIV because I knew XIV was going to go back to sub and was 100% F2P w/no cash shop)

All in all I agree with you, SE has done a completely amazing job, and since I have come to terms with MMO's aren't made for my genre of gamers anymore, I will enjoy everything that XIV:ARR is, even though it highly lacks. There are no better MMO's out right now and I can't see any in the future. ESO is just another glorified World of Warcraft, quester. Perhaps if it was Morrowind with better graphics and sandboxy feel, I'd be more for it.
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#54 Jun 17 2013 at 6:39 PM Rating: Decent
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The problem though is that trying to deviate from he WoW (or let's just say standard) MMO model creates something people will not play. So again, it's like the old argument "the radio plays what they want you to hear." No, the radio plays what the vast majority of people want to hear. The problem is that what the vast majority want to hear is crap.
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#55 Jun 17 2013 at 7:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
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Didn't say it's weird buddy.

It is weird to rate someone's karma because you don't agree with something they said. Hmmm, let me try it.


Actually, until you, I hadn't touched any of the ratings buttons in this thread. And you're right.. *I* said it was weird that fans would be on a fansite. In fact I said it in the post you quoted.

Maybe go for some reading comprehension before you just reach for blind internet rage.


Hey! I wasn't saying you rated them down!

How did I internet rage?

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 9:16pm by Parathyroid
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#56 Jun 17 2013 at 7:24 PM Rating: Decent
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electromagnet83 wrote:
The problem though is that trying to deviate from he WoW (or let's just say standard) MMO model creates something people will not play.


Bull ****.
#57 Jun 17 2013 at 7:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
It was a much more beautiful game, it didn't have zones,


Smiley: laugh So you preferred the old Black Shroud? Anything you say about the games looks from now on I can just disregard then. Copy pasta Thanalan? Ditto.
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#58 Jun 17 2013 at 7:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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The zone redesigns alone have made this game, to me, a hundred times better than 1.0. What they did to the Black Shroud alone was amazing, but Thanalan has been vastly improved as well. I'm recognizing the geographic locations and the place names, but the actual zones are so much more alive. Nophica's Wells actually has water in it! What a concept!

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 9:35pm by Catwho
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#59Killua125, Posted: Jun 17 2013 at 7:40 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I was talking about graphics, not the redesigns. The textures all look worse, especially the textureless, almost single-color MS paint faces, the textures on the ground and more importantly on the armor is dodgy, some of the armor looks like the textures got melted...
#60 Jun 17 2013 at 7:46 PM Rating: Good
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Failsociety wrote:
I honestly don't think Yoshi listened, I think he took those who agreed with where he wanted to go with the game and called it good. This is fine because in the end it's his game. He is looking as most companies do, to bring in the most money. Which is usually by making the content easy, as the masses have shown time and time again they're not fond of anything time consuming or hard. The sad part is, all the casuals he is want to play the game, will. However, after the first couple months they'll realize that it is nothing different from whatever MMO they came from and head back to that MMO. It has happened in every MMO over the last 5-6 years. They become labeled as F2P. However! Luckily! We won't have to worry about that with PS3/PS4 securing an always sub. (Which I loathe F2P games and quit any MMO that hits that status. Besides XIV because I knew XIV was going to go back to sub and was 100% F2P w/no cash shop)

All in all I agree with you, SE has done a completely amazing job, and since I have come to terms with MMO's aren't made for my genre of gamers anymore, I will enjoy everything that XIV:ARR is, even though it highly lacks. There are no better MMO's out right now and I can't see any in the future. ESO is just another glorified World of Warcraft, quester. Perhaps if it was Morrowind with better graphics and sandboxy feel, I'd be more for it.


It's funny, you talk about how easy the game is, yet you haven't got a clue. How could you? The beta cap is 35. They haven't even instituted half the dungeons or any of the endgame. They haven't put PvP into the game. They don't have even a third of the storyline quests in the game. They don't have hard mode or extreme mode primals. They don't have the relic quests. They don't have the Crystal Tower or Labyrinth of Bahamut. So what exactly are you basing this notion that the game is easy mode on? The first 15-20 levels that you played in a weekend of beta? Did you even attempt any of the dungeons, specifically stuff like Copperbell Mines? I haven't, but I've heard that they hold some challenge. I've heard some of the storyline quests do as well.

(edit: this paragraph is general sentiment, not aimed at you specifically) I'm getting really fed up with people labelling this beta as a certain type of game, when we haven't even experienced a third of what the game has to offer. "It's too easy. TP regens too fast. I can't spam my abilities as much as I want. Classes are boring." It's like a bunch of impatient children. How about we let the game launch, and actually play through the meaty part of the content... you know, the upper levels where the harder and more unique content/abilities almost ALWAYS are in mmos before trying to tell everyone what the game is or isn't. Good grief.

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 9:48pm by BartelX
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#61 Jun 17 2013 at 7:58 PM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
I was talking about graphics, not the redesigns. The textures all look worse, especially the textureless, almost single-color MS paint faces, the textures on the ground and more importantly on the armor is dodgy, some of the armor looks like the textures got melted...

Some of the trees/grass/bushes are literally taken out of FFXI and reused.


You really like to exaggerate. It was knocked down a bit. I can definitely tell by shots on the Ifrit battlefield. But I'll take knocked down graphics with a unique look than high res copy paste. It certainly wasn't knocked down to FFXI standards, though.

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 6:59pm by UltKnightGrover
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#62 Jun 17 2013 at 8:03 PM Rating: Good
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TBH I couldn't care less about the O/P. Let him go play Hello Kitty Island adventure or the latest version of Battlefield of war or w/e tired FPS rehash is current. Let him figure out how to hack his own private server so he can play the original version of FFXIV all by himself.

What concerned me, at least on page one, were all these people completely ignorant of their rights as consumers. Just because you agree to a ToS agreement, it does not necessarily mean that everything in said agreement is enforcable:

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2010/04/15/gamestation-we-own-your-soul/

Granted, the above example is a little more. . extreme, but you see my point. Granted, The laws governing ToS have been purchased and rewritten by lobbyists to give these companies almost absolute power over their slaves customers, and it would be both costly and time consuming to attempt to fight them.

But if the ToS states you have to sacrifice your entire family to Ifrit? Somehow I don't think it'd fly in court.

Just sayin'
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#63 Jun 17 2013 at 8:11 PM Rating: Good
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seneleron wrote:
But if the ToS states you have to sacrifice your entire family to Ifrit? Somehow I don't think it'd fly in court.

Just sayin'


I think we all realize that. However, what the OP was explaining falls completely under the ToS. They have the right to cancel/suspend/change service at any time. A perfect example would be Star Wars Galaxies. They basically leveled the entire game and rebuilt it as something completely different, regardless of what the fans wanted. None of the fans got their money back because of it. They just quit and moved on, like most people would. Yes it's unfortunate when a game you really love changes into something you don't, but to cry about it to the company, demand a refund, and then claim that the company is pulling a bait and switch after playing for over a year makes you look like an entitled jerk who thinks they deserve something from a company who gave them months of free entertainment.

If there is something in violation of your rights as a human in a ToS, I don't think there's anyone here who would honestly think that would stand up in court. But something involving the actual game? Yep.
#64 Jun 17 2013 at 8:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
I was talking about graphics, not the redesigns. The textures all look worse, especially the textureless, almost single-color MS paint faces, the textures on the ground and more importantly on the armor is dodgy, some of the armor looks like the textures got melted...

Some of the trees/grass/bushes are literally taken out of FFXI and reused.


Who the @#$@# cares about @#$@#ing grass.

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 7:42pm by Elionara
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#65 Jun 17 2013 at 8:30 PM Rating: Default
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BartelX wrote:
Failsociety wrote:
I honestly don't think Yoshi listened, I think he took those who agreed with where he wanted to go with the game and called it good. This is fine because in the end it's his game. He is looking as most companies do, to bring in the most money. Which is usually by making the content easy, as the masses have shown time and time again they're not fond of anything time consuming or hard. The sad part is, all the casuals he is want to play the game, will. However, after the first couple months they'll realize that it is nothing different from whatever MMO they came from and head back to that MMO. It has happened in every MMO over the last 5-6 years. They become labeled as F2P. However! Luckily! We won't have to worry about that with PS3/PS4 securing an always sub. (Which I loathe F2P games and quit any MMO that hits that status. Besides XIV because I knew XIV was going to go back to sub and was 100% F2P w/no cash shop)

All in all I agree with you, SE has done a completely amazing job, and since I have come to terms with MMO's aren't made for my genre of gamers anymore, I will enjoy everything that XIV:ARR is, even though it highly lacks. There are no better MMO's out right now and I can't see any in the future. ESO is just another glorified World of Warcraft, quester. Perhaps if it was Morrowind with better graphics and sandboxy feel, I'd be more for it.


It's funny, you talk about how easy the game is, yet you haven't got a clue. How could you? The beta cap is 35. They haven't even instituted half the dungeons or any of the endgame. They haven't put PvP into the game. They don't have even a third of the storyline quests in the game. They don't have hard mode or extreme mode primals. They don't have the relic quests. They don't have the Crystal Tower or Labyrinth of Bahamut. So what exactly are you basing this notion that the game is easy mode on? The first 15-20 levels that you played in a weekend of beta? Did you even attempt any of the dungeons, specifically stuff like Copperbell Mines? I haven't, but I've heard that they hold some challenge. I've heard some of the storyline quests do as well.

(edit: this paragraph is general sentiment, not aimed at you specifically) I'm getting really fed up with people labelling this beta as a certain type of game, when we haven't even experienced a third of what the game has to offer. "It's too easy. TP regens too fast. I can't spam my abilities as much as I want. Classes are boring." It's like a bunch of impatient children. How about we let the game launch, and actually play through the meaty part of the content... you know, the upper levels where the harder and more unique content/abilities almost ALWAYS are in mmos before trying to tell everyone what the game is or isn't. Good grief.

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 9:48pm by BartelX


First off I am not claiming End Game will be easy. Yoshi has already stated a few times that things will be easy until end game. He wants people that aren't great at games to be able to compete with those who are great at games. This i sthe same thing WoW does. Second the MAJOR problem I see in all MMO for the last X amount of years. Why does everything have to be centered around getting to level cap and then doing the meaty part of content. It's terrible design. The game (imo) should be all about the slow but FUN and REWARDing journey. End Game should be just that. The End of the Game. Lower, Middle and End content should last months if not years.

90% of MMOs and how they run:

Get to Level cap in a week or less
Do End Game Dungeons to Get gear for the next higher tier dungeon.
Repeat the above statement over and over.
Expansion releases
Get to level cap in a week or less
Do End Game Dungeons to replace the gear you got from end game dungeons previously.
Repeat above statement over and over.
Expansio......

Get my point? That is all any MMO released in the last say 8 years is about. There is no enjoying the journey anymore. Raids aren't hard and never have been. Finding 10-20 people who can listen and follow directions is what's hard. The raiding itself is just repeatable mechanics that after the first or second time you should have them down.

Edit:Relics were semi hard to get in XIV v1. Yoshi has staed they will be much easier to aquire in XIV:ARR. Relics is the new Epic in World of Warcraft standards. Meaning everybody will have them.

Edit Edit: To set the record straight. I love ARR, I think Yoshi and team has done a wonderful job. I am not fond of the direction they have taken, but I will learn to adjust because FF MMOs have always been the better MMOs out there. I liked XI for all those years from NA release to Abyssea because it was set apart from the standards that are todays mess. From Alpha v1 to now it's been an amazing journey. I think 1.23 was on the right track, and saddend to see Yoshi deviate from where I thought he was going with it, but ARR has it's own things that it has done much better.

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 10:31pm by Failsociety

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 10:37pm by Failsociety
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#66 Jun 17 2013 at 8:52 PM Rating: Default
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Do you happen to have a source to Yoshi saying the whole game besides endgame would be easy? I don't remember him ever saying that. I remember him saying it would be accessible to everyone, but that's a huge difference from being easy. How far have you actually gotten in the beta? You can make claims that all the content will be easy, but again, until you actually experience it, you have no clue and are just running on conjecture.

Also, where are you getting this notion that you are going to level to cap in a week? And exactly what other games have you leveled to cap in a week? Are you talking playing 14+ hours a day every day? If so, yeah sure... you probably could get close to cap in some games. Some people have jobs and lives though, and playing all day every day isn't an option.

I played for about 10 hours over the beta weekend and got a single class to 15. Granted, I was also exploring and enjoying the scenery while playing, but isn't that a part of this content you are talking about? I'd say that's a pretty decent pace, especially considering the first 15 levels are usually mcuh faster and the curve gets significantly steeper. I was also not reading ANY of the quest dialogue and skipping through the CS (saving that for launch). I also did zero crafting, zero gathering, and didn't even explore all that much as I was trying to get a class to 15 for dungeons.

I agree the entire content should be interesting, and so far from what I've seen, it is. It's well thought out, the progression is really nice, and I had a lot of fun. Not everything in the game needs to be challenging, in fact I prefer it to ramp up gradually as you learn your class and your role.

#67 Jun 17 2013 at 8:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Kierk wrote:
Except in this case the terms of the newspaper states that the "news" content can change/end at anytime. And you pay knowing that beforehand and or very shortly thereafter.

Also the newspaper gives a year's notice stating that they are going to change into a tabloid, and so you read the newspaper all the way up until that point. Basically getting your money's worth.


That deals with the subscription part, but not the up front fee. The only reason I mentioned that was because they have no issue with that and they're not asking for a refund on the subscription. I'd imagine that if they didn't like the service, they'd stop paying.

Kierk wrote:
The duration of use for me is a red flag.

You would have to show malice and deception on the part of SE to claim a refund at this point in the game and I just don't see it.


It's no more of a red flag than taking an extra 3 years on top of the 6 they already had in development to transform the game into something they once again feel is worth charging for. Keep in mind that SE themselves stated that they would release ARR when they thought the game was worth charging for. I think it's fair for a customer to ask for a refund of the purchase price(again, not the subscription) at any point up until ARR is released. I think it's fair to say that almost any business would do the same.

There is no malice or deception because SE has stated that they intend to make good on their promise of fixing the issues. Say what you want about the potential, the product still hasn't been delivered.
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#68 Jun 17 2013 at 8:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Considering you need almost 15million experience to get 1-50; I'm sure it will be longer than a week.
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#69 Jun 17 2013 at 9:01 PM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
It's no more of a red flag than taking an extra 3 years on top of the 6 they already had in development to transform the game into something they once again feel is worth charging for. Keep in mind that SE themselves stated that they would release ARR when they thought the game was worth charging for. I think it's fair for a customer to ask for a refund of the purchase price(again, not the subscription) at any point up until ARR is released. I think it's fair to say that almost any business would do the same.


How is that fair? Is it fair if you buy a game you thought was going to be good, you played it for a year even though it was almost universally considered to be a failure and awful, then they changed it to make it better and appease fans and you ask for a full refund because YOU don't like it? Again, I think that's just acting like an entitled jerk. They didn't even charge a sub fee for what, 8-9 months? That's free entertainment for going on a year, at the cost of a one-time fee to buy the game, and you think it's ok to ask for your money back after they attempt to improve it, simply because you don't like it? That's pettiness at it's best imo.
#70 Jun 17 2013 at 9:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Killua125 wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
The problem though is that trying to deviate from he WoW (or let's just say standard) MMO model creates something people will not play.


Bull sh*t.


No not Bull Sh*t. Any game that isn't a wow clone fails or goes F2P within a month. Any game that is a WoW clone willo only last slightly longer before suffering the same fate because I mean...why not just play WoW? Face it, MMO players do not like to play anything that must be learned. They must have a control scheme, quest path, XP grind, Dungeon raid process, and general feel that is all completely familiar. The few times I tried to get any MMO vets to try FFXI their reaction was "wtf is this? How do I target? What do I do with...oh @$%* this I quit. " within about 20 minutes. So again, blame the MMO community for creating the need for a standardized model that all MMO devs have to adhere to.

Elionara wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
I was talking about graphics, not the redesigns. The textures all look worse, especially the textureless, almost single-color MS paint faces, the textures on the ground and more importantly on the armor is dodgy, some of the armor looks like the textures got melted...

Some of the trees/grass/bushes are literally taken out of FFXI and reused.


Who the @#$@# cares about @#$@#ing grass.

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 7:42pm by Elionara


I don't like the grass either, but you know what? I turn it off. The world looks better without it anyways.
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#71 Jun 17 2013 at 9:10 PM Rating: Decent
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electromagnet83 wrote:

No not Bull Sh*t. Any game that isn't a wow clone fails or goes F2P within a month. Any game that is a WoW clone willo only last slightly longer before suffering the same fate because I mean...why not just play WoW? Face it, MMO players do not like to play anything that must be learned. They must have a control scheme, quest path, XP grind, Dungeon raid process, and general feel that is all completely familiar. The few times I tried to get any MMO vets to try FFXI their reaction was "wtf is this? How do I target? What do I do with...oh @$%* this I quit. " within about 20 minutes. So again, blame the MMO community for creating the need for a standardized model that all MMO devs have to adhere to.


WTF is a WoW clone? A game that does what WoW did and use all the best ideas and improve on it? All WoW is; is the "Apple" of MMO's. The only unique thing WoW had was phasing.

And FFXI had **** controls compared to any other MMO out there unless you used a controller. I'm surprised I stayed as long as I did. If it wasn't for the controller I would have quit.
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Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#72 Jun 17 2013 at 9:15 PM Rating: Default
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4,149 posts
BartelX wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
It's no more of a red flag than taking an extra 3 years on top of the 6 they already had in development to transform the game into something they once again feel is worth charging for. Keep in mind that SE themselves stated that they would release ARR when they thought the game was worth charging for. I think it's fair for a customer to ask for a refund of the purchase price(again, not the subscription) at any point up until ARR is released. I think it's fair to say that almost any business would do the same.


How is that fair? Is it fair if you buy a game you thought was going to be good, you played it for a year even though it was almost universally considered to be a failure and awful, then they changed it to make it better and appease fans and you ask for a full refund because YOU don't like it? Again, I think that's just acting like an entitled jerk. They didn't even charge a sub fee for what, 8-9 months? That's free entertainment for going on a year, at the cost of a one-time fee to buy the game, and you think it's ok to ask for your money back after they attempt to improve it, simply because you don't like it? That's pettiness at it's best imo.


Does paying for something not entitle you? I would say yes, yes it does.

You say in the same paragraph that the game was a failure and then turn around and say it was 8-9 months of entertainment. I are confuse. Which is it?

SE stated on several occasions that there were issues with the game and apologized for it. They actually went back on their statement that they wouldn't charge until they felt the game was ready, which was stated to be the release of the PS3 version. Yeah yeah, if you don't like it don't pay for it... but it is what it is.

Bottom line for me (and apparently for SE as well if they continue to grant refunds) is that the product is still incomplete. As I said, the intent of SE is to deliver the product in a state worthy of purchase and subscription. As far as I'm concerned(and no, I don't feel it's petty), any purchases of XIV until ARR is released are nothing than glorified pre-orders.

"You know that game we advertised as being cutting edge and innovative, well we don't have that but you can play this sorry excuse for a few years in the meantime..."

Gee, thanks Smiley: glare
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#73 Jun 17 2013 at 9:29 PM Rating: Decent
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6,898 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
You say in the same paragraph that the game was a failure and then turn around and say it was 8-9 months of entertainment. I are confuse. Which is it?


Bad movies are still entertainment. Bad books are still entertainment. Poorly designed golf courses still provide entertainment. Just because the game was a failure doesn't negate the 100's of hours of entertainment it provided players. Heck, I played for months even though I knew it was underwhelming, because I still enjoyed parts of it. Much like I will watch a bad movie or read a bad book on occasion if it has at least 1 redeeming quality.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
SE stated on several occasions that there were issues with the game and apologized for it. They actually went back on their statement that they wouldn't charge until they felt the game was ready, which was stated to be the release of the PS3 version. Yeah yeah, if you don't like it don't pay for it... but it is what it is.


No they didn't. Yoshi said he felt the game was up to the standards of a subscription fee when they started charging. It was in a Producer Letter. A fair number of people agreed with him. Had I not already become invested in swtor, I probably would have paid for it myself.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
Bottom line for me (and apparently for SE as well if they continue to grant refunds) is that the product is still incomplete. As I said, the intent of SE is to deliver the product in a state worthy of purchase and subscription. As far as I'm concerned(and no, I don't feel it's petty), any purchases of XIV until ARR is released are nothing than glorified pre-orders.


The OP called them up, they listened to his complaints, and tried to sell him on ARR. He claims they are refunding him... I think he's full of crap, as SE has absolutely zero obligation to do so. The product is NOT incomplete now. Have you played it? It's a completely fleshed out game. Some people might not like aspects of it, but it's not the lag-fest shell of a game it was during 1.0. And you know the crazy part? SE is nice enough to even give all those who bought the 1.0 version a FREE copy of ARR on top of the free game time they already got. Asking for a refund on top of that is shallow and petty, I don't care how you look at it.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
"You know that game we advertised as being cutting edge and innovative, well we don't have that but you can play this sorry excuse for a few years in the meantime..."

Gee, thanks Smiley: glare


And they paid for it by tarnishing their reputation, losing thousands of fans, and millions upon millions of dollars. Hopefully they've learned their lesson, and based on the beta I'd say they probably have. If you want to agree with the OP, that's fine. It's your opinion. I think you're just as shallow and petty if you think he somehow deserves a refund, or that anyone else does. You purchase the product, you play it, that's your choice. You don't cry about it 3 years later asking for a refund because it's not what you want anymore. That's ridiculous, and nothing you can say will change my opinion about that. Sorry. Anyways, I'm off to bed, so feel free to keep responding but I won't be reading it until tomorrow at work.
#74 Jun 17 2013 at 9:48 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
No not Bull Sh*t. Any game that isn't a wow clone fails or goes F2P within a month. Any game that is a WoW clone willo only last slightly longer before suffering the same fate because I mean...why not just play WoW? Face it, MMO players do not like to play anything that must be learned. They must have a control scheme, quest path, XP grind, Dungeon raid process, and general feel that is all completely familiar. The few times I tried to get any MMO vets to try FFXI their reaction was "wtf is this? How do I target? What do I do with...oh @$%* this I quit. " within about 20 minutes. So again, blame the MMO community for creating the need for a standardized model that all MMO devs have to adhere to.


Smiley: oyvey

Let's break that down..

Quote:
Any game that isn't a wow clone fails or goes F2P within a month

Two things here. One, you're just wrong. Two, if you can't debate without ridiculous hyperbole, then you don't have a legitimate point to make

Tera wasn't amazing, but it also wasn't a WoW clone. Took well over a month before it went f2p. Eve... actually isn't Eve still a sub-based non-wow clone?

Quote:
Any game that is a WoW clone willo only last slightly longer before suffering the same fate because I mean...why not just play WoW?

To a point, yes, however the games which are actually carbon copies of WoW have already failed or gone f2p and dwindled into nothing long ago. Rift, SWTOR, DDO, LotRO.. these games are still around. They took WoW's formula and innovated on it, which btw is all WoW did in the first place.

Quote:
Face it, MMO players do not like to play anything that must be learned.

MMO players never stop learning things. But to hold their interest, the product DOES need to be enjoyable.

Quote:
They must have a control scheme, quest path, XP grind, Dungeon raid process, and general feel that is all completely familiar.

Not entirely, though there are good reasons why those concepts have stuck around and even been integrated into other games. Change for change's sake is a bad plan, just ask Tanaka how that worked out. Innovation is a good thing, but arbitrarily making your game "not WoW" without having a design goal in mind doesn't work.

Quote:
The few times I tried to get any MMO vets to try FFXI their reaction was "wtf is this? How do I target? What do I do with...oh @$%* this I quit. " within about 20 minutes.

Look at this one from their perspective. It's not just MMOs with standardized control schemes, it's games.. basically all of them. When you play a game where you're controlling an avatar in a 3-dimensional space, you expect a certain basic control scheme. And you expect that control scheme because it's become the standard for games in this class. FFXI is part of that class and has a WILDLY different control scheme. Now this is, of course, because FFXI predates the standard. But those vets don't know that. You're introducing them to it, probably without that warning, and then you're disgusted when they can't figure it out when it's completely alien. You're talking about a game designed for a controller, where using the mouse actually hurts your ability to control your character. Yeah, MMO vets are going to have a problem with that.

Quote:
So again, blame the MMO community for creating the need for a standardized model that all MMO devs have to adhere to.

Standardized models help people feel comfortable with your new game. It's the innovation and gameplay that have to keep them playing it.
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#75 Jun 17 2013 at 9:55 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
That's free entertainment for going on a year, at the cost of a one-time fee


Free for a fee? You'll have to explain how that works to me also.

BartelX wrote:
No they didn't. Yoshi said he felt the game was up to the standards of a subscription fee when they started charging. It was in a Producer Letter.

This is correct. However, you're talking about the statement which basically retracted the prior statement about when they would charge for the game. It was before XIV official forums iirc, but I'm certain it was before Letter from the Producer started.

BartelX wrote:
The product is NOT incomplete now. Have you played it? It's a completely fleshed out game.


No it is not complete and No, I have not played it since alpha. Wait, did I just say alpha? It's what... beta testing now? How exactly does a beta test qualify as a complete product when the name itself implies that it's still in testing phase? A completely fleshed out game doesn't have regular letters from the developer stating all of the bugs they're ironing out and how they plan to make changes before the game is released. Really dude? Really??

I get that the current state may be to your liking and that the intended direction inspires you to believe that ARR will be great once it is released. I'd be lying if I said I didn't have hope for the future of XIV as well. You're kidding yourself if you think the beta is a representation of a finished product though. Or is it....

BartelX wrote:
And you know the crazy part? SE is nice enough to even give all those who bought the 1.0 version a FREE copy of ARR on top of the free game time they already got.


Note underlined and bolded above. Again, you'll have to explain to me how something you paid for qualifies as free.

If you want to argue a point that's fine, but many of the things you put forth here are contradictory.

BartelX wrote:
I think you're just as shallow and petty if you think he somehow deserves a refund, or that anyone else does.

I don't need a refund because I was lucky enough(or unlucky depending on your perspective) to not have been suckered in to spending money the first time around. Speaking of petty... whether or not we can agree that a refund is deserved or not can be argued without the namecalling.

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 11:56pm by FilthMcNasty

*EDIT*

Just wanted to correct the timing of the statement relating paid services and PS3. It was after the Lodestone went up, but prior to Letter from the Producer. FYI the statement about resuming the subscription service didn't come from Yoshi, but from Wada himself. Also, the statement about the indefinite extension of the free trial seems to be gone from lodestone. Either that or it's not where the rest of them are.

Edited, Jun 18th 2013 12:14am by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#76Killua125, Posted: Jun 17 2013 at 10:07 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I really, really, really hate how some of you keep pointing to 1.0, FFXIV, Tanaka as evidence that 'innovation is bad', and we should just keep rehashing World of Warcraft. (I'm looking at electromagnet and others).
#77 Jun 17 2013 at 10:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Just to clear something out, the game is easy, the first 3 dungeons and the next 2 are also easy, so as far as we have seen, 5 out of 16 dungeons are easy mode, and some even got the nerf bat after phase 2 to be even more easy(Tam tara) and limit breaks are not what he hopped they would be, they are more of a get out of jail free card if somebody messes up Smiley: lol

Will have to see if in higher levels the difficulty picks up.
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#78 Jun 17 2013 at 10:24 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Just to clear something out, the game is easy, the first 3 dungeons and the next 2 are also easy, so as far as we have seen, 5 out of 16 dungeons are easy mode, and some even got the nerf bat after phase 2 to be even more easy(Tam tara) and limit breaks are not what he hopped they would be, they are more of a get out of jail free card if somebody messes up Smiley: lol

Will have to see if in higher levels the difficulty picks up.


I wouldn't expect leveling dungeons to be all that difficult. Especially when the duty finder exists; this has to be content that's doable by a group of total strangers with minimal coordination.

I expect challenge to come from endgame content, and in a Final Fantasy game I expect some challenging content from the story encounters as well (though once again, not at the very beginning of the game... this is Final Fantasy, not Dark Souls)

Quote:
Maybe so, but I don't think quote"World of Warcraft with Final Fantasy"/quote, Yoshi-P's vision, is that much better of a plan.


Did you read the rest of what I wrote? Because I covered that.
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svlyons wrote:
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#79 Jun 17 2013 at 10:25 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
[quote=BartelX]
Does paying for something not entitle you? I would say yes, yes it does.


Bottom line for me (and apparently for SE as well if they continue to grant refunds) is that the product is still incomplete. As I said, the intent of SE is to deliver the product in a state worthy of purchase and subscription. As far as I'm concerned(and no, I don't feel it's petty), any purchases of XIV until ARR is released are nothing than glorified pre-orders.

"You know that game we advertised as being cutting edge and innovative, well we don't have that but you can play this sorry excuse for a few years in the meantime..."

Gee, thanks Smiley: glare



Then at what point is the game finished? Sure it will be released on August 27th but will it be finished by then?

What if 2 more years from now they change the combat to an FPS style system; am I entitled to get my purchase price from 5 years ago back?

And at what point do you stop handing out refunds?

---

There are two facts here: the OP is entitled to his money back 3 years ago. And companies cannot survive if they accept "returns" for seemingly satisfied customers who were aware of the game's impending fate.

Again, there was no malice here on the part of SE; no one was misguided or led astray.

---

In the end we're talking about time, tangibility and use here.

However just because the media in this case is digital doesn't belay the fact that use has taken place.

If I loved Tomb Raider, but hated all of the DLC is it right for me to ask SE for a refund for the full purchase price?


Edited, Jun 18th 2013 12:27am by Kierk
#80 Jun 17 2013 at 10:36 PM Rating: Decent
46 posts
I still see people making up stuff about me and reacting as if it was science. I'm not getting a refund. I had an untouched copy of ffxiv. I sent an email asking about what happens if people are customers of ffxiv but not into ARR. They said to call them, it isn't something they could handle it by email (agreed). I called. I talked to two different people and the call lasted about an hour and a half excluding wait times.

The copy I had was unused. All rights tied to it were never waved. I never asked about my used account at all. The people I spoke to were chill and inquisitive.

There was no anger.
There were no complaints.
We simply had a discussion.

They offered me a copy of Last Remnant PC in exchange for my copy of ffxiv and I gave them my unused code.

I mentioned I was in California because our policies tend to be more liberal than most places. Even if I had spoken about my main account, it would make no difference because their ToS here is worth the paper it is printed on.
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#82 Jun 17 2013 at 10:44 PM Rating: Default
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Did you read the rest of what I wrote? Because I covered that.


You did? Those other MMORPGs may have drawn inspiration from World of Warcraft, but I doubt the entire vision behind their game when creating it was as shallow as 'World of Warcraft but with Final Fantasy in it'.
#83 Jun 17 2013 at 11:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Kierk wrote:
Then at what point is the game finished? Sure it will be released on August 27th but will it be finished by then?

What if 2 more years from now they change the combat to an FPS style system; am I entitled to get my purchase price from 5 years ago back?

And at what point do you stop handing out refunds?


Personally, if I were in SE's shoes I would have just pulled the plug and started over. I can't be bothered to dig through years of old threads, but I'm sure someone here could verify that if you needed. I wouldn't be able to justify the costs associated with propping XIV up on a crutch for so long as a monument to failure. I never would have released the game in the state is was in anyway, but if forced to for some reason; I would have stopped service and issued refunds.

Then again, if XIV were under my control there wouldn't be a charge for the client anyway; especially not if I was going to try and charge a monthly subscription fee. Who looks at today's MMO market and what has happened to pretty much every sub based MMO since WoW and thinks "Yeah, I'll charge a subscription fee. It'll be great"?

The OP is talking about a copy of XIV that was never used so use doesn't really have a part here. If it's fair to allow a company 3 years to fix their product, I think it's also fair to allow the customer 3 years plus the normal 30 day return policy most places have to get a refund. Props to SE for asking for feedback though. That was one of the things that stuck out to me when I cancelled my service with WoW. They wanted to know why because they genuinely care about improving their products and services.

____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#84 Jun 18 2013 at 12:01 AM Rating: Good
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1,313 posts
Kierk wrote:
For as little as $.10 a day* you can save apapertiger from going hungry.

*about how much we all paid (if you bought the CE edition)

If you were "dedicated" enough to pay a monthly fee, it's probably somewhere around .15 cents a day.



Smiley: disappointed


It's $0.43 per day actually if I did that right. Maybe he doesn't have access to enough couches to cover it.
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#85 Jun 18 2013 at 12:09 AM Rating: Good
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Well I'm glad the OP clarified that.

An unopened 1.0 is an entirely different issue. Still my first course of action would be to sell it on eBay or just give it away. No "official" refund was given but SE handled this well enough. Again, charity.

Now that I think about it, If I've ever deserved to get my money back for a game it'd be for XIII, but I digress...(I gave that back to GameStop two days later)
---

What you would do might have been the most fair, maybe even best decision, but the irony is, we might have also never seen ARR if it weren't for the Legacy players and the continuation of the game until that point.

1.23 bought SE time to cultivate their new style of leadership and kept the cash flow coming if only for a little while.

And I'm sure there were plenty of refunds given in the beginning as well.

Keeping the game going and limiting refunds was probably the best course of action at the time.

But we'll never know what the best course of action was, all we know now is that a lot of people are happy the way ARR is turning out so far and few aren't.

In the end those who are currently unhappy and just now want a refund for unopened 1.0s total: 1 that we know of. Lol.

In short, my level of caring about this topic really shouldn't be as high as it is. Heck, I usually ignore the "vague OP with random clarification a page or two in after the pot has been stirred" threads.

I guess I'm just hard up for any kind of info since I couldn't get into the beta.

I officially deem this the silly season. (;_;)
#86 Jun 18 2013 at 12:11 AM Rating: Default
46 posts
And someone did ask...

I bought 1.0 because I was intrigued by the class system it had. I actually enjoyed the class system of 1.0. It was also the first MMO that I had fun playing the mage classes. I bought 1.0 because I wanted Tanaka's game but fixed and fleshed out.

I've said that before when I quit ffxiv. When Yoshi's direction kicked in, I began losing interest. But I was all for the guy when he was fixing things.

My ARR turn offs: the class and job system, the magic system, the combat system, and none of the combat classes click with me under Yoshi P's direction.

I'm not saying they are bad under his direction. I'm saying they're not for me.
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#87 Jun 18 2013 at 12:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Kierk wrote:
What you would do might have been the most fair, maybe even best decision, but the irony is, we might have also never seen ARR if it weren't for the Legacy players and the continuation of the game until that point.


We still haven't seen it Smiley: tongue
Kierk wrote:
1.23 bought SE time to cultivate their new style of leadership and kept the cash flow coming if only for a little while.


Given the time and money spent developing, the maybe 10k subs they maintained for that period were a drop in the bucket. Depending on how many Legacy there are who stick around and play for a while, they'll end up giving it all back anyway. Nevermind the dough they forked over to developers for overtime, money for servers and server upkeep, ect. ect.

If I could remember my password I'd let you play beta on my account. I have no use for it since I'm reserving judgement about adjustments until the game launches.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#88 Jun 18 2013 at 12:37 AM Rating: Default
46 posts
There really shouldn't have been a need for clarification. Did you buy 1.0 and aren't feeling the ARR love? Then SE wants to hear about it.

Excited for ARR? Then move along.

Probably not going be a popular idea, but when people dropped the sensationalism, the conversations in this thread have been really good on both sides.
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#89 Jun 18 2013 at 12:48 AM Rating: Default
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im still wondering why you are still here, you said it game not for you soooo bye bye?
#90 Jun 18 2013 at 1:05 AM Rating: Decent
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XShadesX wrote:
im still wondering why you are still here, you said it game not for you soooo bye bye?


When did this forum turned into the beta/official forums ?

Also since when does XIV has 5+ Million subscribers, where we have the luxury to tell people off ?
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#91 Jun 18 2013 at 1:22 AM Rating: Default
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Fair enough if you don't like it - I just don't think you should be compensated for that. You bought version 1 - you played version 1. You got what you paid for.
#92 Jun 18 2013 at 1:32 AM Rating: Decent
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So, let me condense this thread:
1.) I don't like.
2.) We do.
3.) Blablablablablablablablabla, because friday is still soooo far away.
#93 Jun 18 2013 at 1:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Lol... came back to 64 new replies Smiley: lol Going strong!
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