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Is this really the extent of XIV endgame?Follow

#1 Jun 19 2013 at 12:22 AM Rating: Default
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I've heard that endgame in 1.0 was challenging and showed a lot of promise. Some guy was bashing other MMOs saying that the bosses in games like WoW and Rift were simple and the game was made for kids compared to the "tactical fights" in FF MMOs. . He then provided this link ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unpWwn00mJs

It's apparently the Ifrit fight. Has this dude played any other games? What the **** kind of a boss fight is that? That is tactical?

I'm really looking forward to ARR regardless for many other reasons. In fact, I don't really expect much of an endgame out of it. I just want to enjoy Eorzea and goof around really, but these polarized FF nuts really need to get their heads out of their asses and take a look around once in a while.

*Just to clarify, I am in no way putting down anyone's accomplishments in 1.0, nor am I putting the fight down. I'm just looking for feedback on what the legacy players view as challenging and/or tactical.

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 2:30am by Transmigration

Edited, Jun 20th 2013 9:39am by Wint Lock Thread: Off topic
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#2 Jun 19 2013 at 12:31 AM Rating: Decent
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One video. One guy's opinion.
#3 Jun 19 2013 at 12:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ifrit is a level 30 fight, heres the video of 2.0 at E3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPn6nDYcwcw
#4 Jun 19 2013 at 12:35 AM Rating: Default
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BrokenFox wrote:
One video. One guy's opinion.


Two sentences. No information.

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#5 Jun 19 2013 at 12:44 AM Rating: Good
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There are ff fanboys by the thousands who don't realize.
..and it doesn't even compute....that the extremes of rift and wow endgame tore ffxi's up. 1.0 was no. Rift infernal dawn. No.

It'll be a solid vanilla endgame. Working on relics. Marching up the tower and lair. Then the 2nd phase of the lair and relic upgrade quests eventually up there ...

Yoshida is a mmo junkie. DaoC. WoW. FFXI. Rift. He plays these games. It'll be there.

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 2:45am by benjjjamin
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#6 Jun 19 2013 at 12:44 AM Rating: Default
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aadrenry wrote:
Ifrit is a level 30 fight, heres the video of 2.0 at E3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPn6nDYcwcw


It's a zergfight with an enrage timer that these s keying noobs couldn't beat because no one knew a proper dps rotation. Oh, and a tank that thinks running in circles increases his evasion or something. Players will be doing that in their sleep by their second or third attempt.
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#7 Jun 19 2013 at 12:48 AM Rating: Decent
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benjjjamin wrote:
There are ff fanboys by the thousands who don't realize.
..and it doesn't even compute....that the extremes of rift and wow endgame tore ffxi's up. 1.0 was no. Rift infernal dawn. No.

It'll be a solid vanilla endgame. Working on relics. Marching up the tower and lair. Then the 2nd phase of the lair and relic upgrade quests eventually up there ...

Yoshida is a mmo junkie. DaoC. WoW. FFXI. Rift. He plays these games. It'll be there.

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 2:45am by benjjjamin


I do hope you're right Ben. Yoshi has said that he's played a lot of MMOs and loves PvP and raiding. They're going to have to come up with some far more difficult stuff to compete with the market.
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#8 Jun 19 2013 at 12:51 AM Rating: Decent
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It's very typical for fanboys (especially Square Enix, and Final Fantasy fanboys) to bash games they haven't even played.
#9 Jun 19 2013 at 12:52 AM Rating: Good
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Well Ifrit extreme could tear you a new ******* if that makes anyone feel better ;)

I never did beat that. Garuda was a !@#$ as well. Unless you had rock solid DPS you chances of winning dropped very fast. Keep in mind these relic fights are still in there but the primals will exist differently and should be harder because the Free Company that beats a primal gets to call it on the battle field for a basic 1 hit KO. PvP for sure; but not sure on PvE.

I know when someone summon's the primal (you have a set time to do so) the entire sky changes color around the entire world to let everyone know its been summoned.
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#10 Jun 19 2013 at 12:54 AM Rating: Good
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Transmigration wrote:
BrokenFox wrote:
One video. One guy's opinion.


Two sentences. No information.



Then use your head. You're making a judgment based off one person's opinion of a YouTube video. It's dumb. It's waaaay to early to determine what any end-game content will be like. All we can do is wait and see. Doom and gloom threads don't solve anything.

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 2:55am by BrokenFox
#11 Jun 19 2013 at 1:04 AM Rating: Decent
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BrokenFox wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
BrokenFox wrote:
One video. One guy's opinion.


Two sentences. No information.



Then use your head. You're making a judgment based off one person's opinion of a YouTube video. It's dumb. It's waaaay to early to determine what any end-game content will be like. All we can do is wait and see. Doom and gloom threads don't solve anything.

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 2:55am by BrokenFox


While that was very eloquently expressed, Fox, I feel like you're looking past the point of my inquiry. That is just one example of some dodo throwing out misinformation about other games and using some half-assed fight to exemplify the glory of XIV raiding. My fear is that potential future challenge will be missed out on due to the community not asking for it and being complacent with weak endgame structure.

The video is called "solo whm heal".. why on earth would you ever need more than one? In both videos, 1.0 and 2.0, the only life bar that ever moved (pre enrage timer) was the tanks.

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 3:05am by Transmigration
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#12 Jun 19 2013 at 1:04 AM Rating: Good
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Transmigration wrote:
benjjjamin wrote:
There are ff fanboys by the thousands who don't realize.
..and it doesn't even compute....that the extremes of rift and wow endgame tore ffxi's up. 1.0 was no. Rift infernal dawn. No.

It'll be a solid vanilla endgame. Working on relics. Marching up the tower and lair. Then the 2nd phase of the lair and relic upgrade quests eventually up there ...

Yoshida is a mmo junkie. DaoC. WoW. FFXI. Rift. He plays these games. It'll be there.

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 2:45am by benjjjamin


I do hope you're right Ben. Yoshi has said that he's played a lot of MMOs and loves PvP and raiding. They're going to have to come up with some far more difficult stuff to compete with the market.


Yoshida played Rift. He knows what happens to great games that ***** raiding up.
Unfortunately Yoshida probably watched Rift break guilds over its knee in Hammerknell and Infernal dawn. He will probably stay away from blame game tactics and catering to hardcore 6 day a week progression raiders like that. He is using Rift dps check phases. He mimics Rift's WoW questing polish. He abandoned their demand to execute rotations perfectly to create the dps though.

I don't see much DaoC in this, supposedly yoshida's favorite mmo. FFXI is, to my hesitation, still clearly present.

If anyone can compromise between modern performance (NOT action) mmos like Rift and old jrpg styles like fffxi it's him.

We'll see. He took us this far from....that.
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#13 Jun 19 2013 at 1:37 AM Rating: Good
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Yes, I am a big fan of FF MMO End game. No I do not care for Rift, WoW type end game. I have completed several end game dungeons in both WoW and Rift. I ran a raiding guild in Rift, and the hardest thing about raiding, is finding 10-20 morons that know how to pay attention.

The ifrit fight, Garuda, Good King Moogle, those were all really hard, but again, a lot of it rested on listening and paying attention. It's amazing how hard that really is.

Edit: Although Rift had/has a MUCH better raiding scene then world of warcraft. Difficulty wise. Rift was a lot harder in other ways until a certain crowd kinda destroyed that as well. (My opinion)

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 3:38am by Failsociety
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#14 Jun 19 2013 at 1:49 AM Rating: Good
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Failsociety wrote:
Yes, I am a big fan of FF MMO End game. No I do not care for Rift, WoW type end game. I have completed several end game dungeons in both WoW and Rift. I ran a raiding guild in Rift, and the hardest thing about raiding, is finding 10-20 morons that know how to pay attention.

The ifrit fight, Garuda, Good King Moogle, those were all really hard, but again, a lot of it rested on listening and paying attention. It's amazing how hard that really is.

Edit: Although Rift had/has a MUCH better raiding scene then world of warcraft. Difficulty wise. Rift was a lot harder in other ways until a certain crowd kinda destroyed that as well. (My opinion)

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 3:38am by Failsociety


Thank you for the real response. Could you expand on why Ifrit, Garuda, and King Moog were hard? I never got a chance to take part in the fights, so I'm wondering where the difficulty lies in comparison to other MMO raids.
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#15 Jun 19 2013 at 2:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Transmigration wrote:
Failsociety wrote:
Yes, I am a big fan of FF MMO End game. No I do not care for Rift, WoW type end game. I have completed several end game dungeons in both WoW and Rift. I ran a raiding guild in Rift, and the hardest thing about raiding, is finding 10-20 morons that know how to pay attention.

The ifrit fight, Garuda, Good King Moogle, those were all really hard, but again, a lot of it rested on listening and paying attention. It's amazing how hard that really is.

Edit: Although Rift had/has a MUCH better raiding scene then world of warcraft. Difficulty wise. Rift was a lot harder in other ways until a certain crowd kinda destroyed that as well. (My opinion)

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 3:38am by Failsociety


Thank you for the real response. Could you expand on why Ifrit, Garuda, and King Moog were hard? I never got a chance to take part in the fights, so I'm wondering where the difficulty lies in comparison to other MMO raids.


As with all End Game Raids Bosses, they have special mechanics. When I stated it was amazing that it was hard, it was more of finding people that could actually follow directions and pay attention to the fight. But you have to realize of course all my experience comes from v1.0 and seeing how dungeons alone have become more Themepark like, I wouldn't be surprised if these fights became that way too. An Example would be Ifrit.

Ideally the Tank would tank against the far northern part of the circle of flame due to Ifrit's knockback. Depending on how you were doing the fight or how well your DD we geared, people would use WS combo's to break off a horn or two which would slow down Ifrits Regenration as well as make the fight much easier. The fight consisted of people having to be aware of cracks and explosions and not getting caught in animation lock. Not to mention the server lag which you would be off the cracks by a mile, yet still get slammed by the damage. Then you'd have the Nails that you'd have to try and take down as fast as possible to lesson the damage of Ifrits Hellfire, as well as using key abilities to help your team take the least damage possible. In most cases this is where wipes came from, in my experience as it is often hard to recover from. Hellfire packed a punch.

Each of the Primal Fights had their own little quirks. Like with Garuda and saving the pillars, and good king moogle, by downing the moogles in the best order. It's really all artifical hardness and depends of course on gear checks, Jobs and people listening paying attention. In some cases it seemed no matter how well your communications were, you just weren't going to win. I would suggest looking over some Youtube v1 videos and deciding for yourself, but remember these were v1 fights and in a lot of ways severly flawed due to sever limitations.

I'm sorry if this wasn't exactly what you were looking for, but I am exhausted. Also these were just primal battles. There were actually some pretty hard End Game Dungeons as well. I'd wait on your judgment until trying it yourself. If the end game isn't for you, in my personal opinion there is much more then just "End Game".

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 4:04am by Failsociety
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#16 Jun 19 2013 at 2:05 AM Rating: Default
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I have watched the fights in youtube. So the fights are your basic stay out of the fire and follow the strategy fights. The actual difficulty came from server lag and people not cooperating or learning on the fly. This is what confused me the most, because from the videos I've seen, the actual mechanics looked very simple and easy to overcome.
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#17 Jun 19 2013 at 2:32 AM Rating: Good
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Transmigration wrote:
I have watched the fights in youtube. So the fights are your basic stay out of the fire and follow the strategy fights. The actual difficulty came from server lag and people not cooperating or learning on the fly. This is what confused me the most, because from the videos I've seen, the actual mechanics looked very simple and easy to overcome.


Sadly it's not as black and white as that, but just like any Boss fight in any concurrent MMO that indeed is the basis. But to me the big difference is how forgiven your mistakes can be, and tbh imo, there wasn't much room for mistakes in any of those fights. I can almost promise however that End Game v2 is not the same as End Game v1.
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#18 Jun 19 2013 at 2:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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benjjjamin wrote:
Yoshida is a mmo junkie. DaoC. WoW. FFXI. Rift. He plays these games. It'll be there.


You'll have to forgive me for being skeptical. Perhaps Yoshi won the trust of the big wigs at SE and they're letting him completely redesign the combat system, but unless it's just that(complete overhaul); this statement doesn't really lend itself to my confidence that it'll get done.
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#19 Jun 19 2013 at 4:07 AM Rating: Good
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He is only limited by the fans of this game to be honest. They may not let him do what he truly wants because it may not be "final fantasy." The ffxi players are a huge liability to be honest. They want what they want and what they want has no chance of flying today. So is the jrpg fanbase back home. Some of you all yourselves at this site are very resistant to hybridizing performance mmo play...you call it button mashing I believe....and "strategy" which I am still not sure what people mean by that other than keep it slow and...kill an add when it pops? Anyway.

People need to let him work now. He proved he has talent for this in a sea of idiots. No one will, naturally. This is Final Fantasy. It's their series.
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#20 Jun 19 2013 at 4:25 AM Rating: Good
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benjjjamin wrote:
He is only limited by the fans of this game to be honest. They may not let him do what he truly wants because it may not be "final fantasy." The ffxi players are a huge liability to be honest. They want what they want and what they want has no chance of flying today. So is the jrpg fanbase back home. Some of you all yourselves at this site are very resistant to hybridizing performance mmo play...you call it button mashing I believe....and "strategy" which I am still not sure what people mean by that other than keep it slow and...kill an add when it pops? Anyway.

People need to let him work now. He proved he has talent for this in a sea of idiots. No one will, naturally. This is Final Fantasy. It's their series.


I dont get the "button smashing" argument either. Even if the combat system is a bit more faster than FFXI (which was SLOW), it doesnt take the strategy element away from the encounters. I think as the combat system is bit faster it really just makes it possibly even harder as you will have to be able to do right choises in less time. It will combine strategy and reflexes etc(gameplay), and not be just about strategy, and that's what makes MMO engame really exciting I think. I wouldnt say that stuff like Pandemonium Warden or Absolute Virtue were hard in the way they shouldve been back then. It's not really hard when it just takes a billion hours to complete, its hard when its hard no matter how long the battle is. For example in WoW the encounters take like 15mins max and they are still very challenging on heroic modes. Most of the people here who say that WoW is easy mode havent probably tried out the actual endgame content. The thing blizzard did right with wow is that there's stuff to do for hardcore gamers (arena, heroic raids) while still being easily accessable by newcomers or casuals.

But about FFXIV. For what I tried the game in beta, the combat speed for me was probably the best in any game yet. 2s GCD keeps it away from being mindless buttonsmasher and gives time to think your next move, but its not as slow as FFXI was. Now if they just come up with some great and challenging boss mechanics for crystal tower etc the game will be awesome.

No matter which game you like, you should try to take those rose colored glasses off and see the game as it really is. I really loved FFXI and WoW aswell. Those were very different kind of games and both had some flaws. I remember defending FFXIV 1.0 because I was so big fan of FF back then (still am but 1.0 teached me something). Now I really just want to think of the game as it is and leave the fan-glasses somewhere else.

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 6:29am by Mekiri
#21 Jun 19 2013 at 5:52 AM Rating: Good
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benjjjamin wrote:
He is only limited by the fans of this game to be honest. They may not let him do what he truly wants because it may not be "final fantasy." The ffxi players are a huge liability to be honest. They want what they want and what they want has no chance of flying today. So is the jrpg fanbase back home. Some of you all yourselves at this site are very resistant to hybridizing performance mmo play...you call it button mashing I believe....and "strategy" which I am still not sure what people mean by that other than keep it slow and...kill an add when it pops? Anyway.

People need to let him work now. He proved he has talent for this in a sea of idiots. No one will, naturally. This is Final Fantasy. It's their series.


Actually, I think he's limited by players who are so caught up in this mentality that everything needs to be instant, and have to spamm their abilities as fast as possible to try and accomplish things. Perhaps if people learned basic principles, like how to manage their own threat, or how to manage resources in a game, or how to manage a skill rotation effectively and pump out DPS when it's needed, and back off when it's not, things would be different. Unfortunately, too many people just ignore this and want to be top dps in a raid so they just ignore tactics altogether and instead spam everything they possibly can in an attempt to somehow "win" the raid.

You're right about one thing. It's Final Fantasy, and he's making it feel like a Final Fantasy game. I'm glad. I don't want a button mashing game where everything is just a race to finish line. I want something that takes skill, where there's kiting involved, where players have to pay attention to their DPS so as not to trigger different boss modes too early or take too long to kill something, and where players actually have to manage a rotation and put thought into what they are doing, not just memorize a 5 key rotation on a hotbar and spam it all day. Hopefully that's what we'll get in this game, only time will tell.
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#22 Jun 19 2013 at 6:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Transmigration wrote:
Failsociety wrote:
Yes, I am a big fan of FF MMO End game. No I do not care for Rift, WoW type end game. I have completed several end game dungeons in both WoW and Rift. I ran a raiding guild in Rift, and the hardest thing about raiding, is finding 10-20 morons that know how to pay attention.

The ifrit fight, Garuda, Good King Moogle, those were all really hard, but again, a lot of it rested on listening and paying attention. It's amazing how hard that really is.

Edit: Although Rift had/has a MUCH better raiding scene then world of warcraft. Difficulty wise. Rift was a lot harder in other ways until a certain crowd kinda destroyed that as well. (My opinion)

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 3:38am by Failsociety


Thank you for the real response. Could you expand on why Ifrit, Garuda, and King Moog were hard? I never got a chance to take part in the fights, so I'm wondering where the difficulty lies in comparison to other MMO raids.


Ifrit was only hard because of lag and animation lock. That's the ONLY reason. Eruptions would appear underneath you, and you had to move out of the way, but then you would die anyway, either from lag or because you were trapped in a ws animation, unable to move.

Aside from that, Ifrit was the introduction to Primals. Meant to be fairly simple. There was even a few safe spots to stand in, so you never had to dodge anything but eruptions.

Moogle was a step above Ifrit. You had to keep damage up on each moogle that appeared or you would be overrun, and if you didn't kill all moogled before the rage timer, you died. Then you had to tank and kite all the moogles and kill them again, working together to call out the kill order. Again, not entirely difficult, but harder than standing in one spot.

Garuda was the hardest. You needed constant dmg on the adds that appeared because they would attack the rocks on the level, which were your only protection from Garuda's wind blasts. Eventually she would destroy all the rocks with her hp% move and you then had to kill her before she killed you with her aoe wind blasts.

I wouldn't call the primal fights the height of 1.0's endgame though. Aurum Vale and Cutter's Cry were much harder dungeons when going for relic items via speed runs.
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#23 Jun 19 2013 at 7:30 AM Rating: Good
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The game should be somewhat difficult and require us to pay attention. The game is just starting out though.

I feel if the game started out balls hard there would be no series of difficulty progression. I'm sure raids such as the Labrynth or the Tower will quench your masochistic lust quite favorably.
#24 Jun 19 2013 at 7:51 AM Rating: Decent
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To a lot to the playerbase, Ifrit was hard. Just ask all the random PUGS I joined that couldn't get a win, while others found it to be a joke. Garuda was unobtainable for a lot of players, as well as Nael Van Darnus.
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#25 Jun 19 2013 at 7:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Something else somewhat misleading about the video, is that it's a group that's probably done the fight hundreds of times up to that point. Even the most chaotic fight can look organized when you have a group that knows exactly what and when to do things, where to stand to minimize movements that might ***** you up, etc. Also 1.0 fights I believe were tuned factoring in that the previous architecture was god awful and server lag was a fact of life. When learning the fight cracks WERE challenging because you had to get used to not animation locking yourself when they could pop up. Then after a while you just learned what you had to do.

I think as a starting point, it's a good sign that future raids will be interesting and varied. I also agree that a lot of FF white knights bash other games without really knowing everything they offer, but I don't think that will change the quality of what we'll eventually get here.
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#26 Jun 19 2013 at 8:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Anakte wrote:
Something else somewhat misleading about the video, is that it's a group that's probably done the fight hundreds of times up to that point. Even the most chaotic fight can look organized when you have a group that knows exactly what and when to do things, where to stand to minimize movements that might ***** you up, etc. Also 1.0 fights I believe were tuned factoring in that the previous architecture was god awful and server lag was a fact of life. When learning the fight cracks WERE challenging because you had to get used to not animation locking yourself when they could pop up. Then after a while you just learned what you had to do.

I think as a starting point, it's a good sign that future raids will be interesting and varied. I also agree that a lot of FF white knights bash other games without really knowing everything they offer, but I don't think that will change the quality of what we'll eventually get here.


Well, one of the greatest additions to combat in ARR is the red "AOE Circle" that appears when an enemy is about to use one. I was a bit worried at first, thinking it made it too easy to dodge, but really it gives the players the tools to dodge, meaning they will add a lot more difficulty to fights and a lot more aoe, since we have the ability to see where they are.
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