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Is this really the extent of XIV endgame?Follow

#52 Jun 19 2013 at 1:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Mekiri wrote:
benjjjamin wrote:
He is only limited by the fans of this game to be honest. They may not let him do what he truly wants because it may not be "final fantasy." The ffxi players are a huge liability to be honest. They want what they want and what they want has no chance of flying today. So is the jrpg fanbase back home. Some of you all yourselves at this site are very resistant to hybridizing performance mmo play...you call it button mashing I believe....and "strategy" which I am still not sure what people mean by that other than keep it slow and...kill an add when it pops? Anyway.

People need to let him work now. He proved he has talent for this in a sea of idiots. No one will, naturally. This is Final Fantasy. It's their series.


I dont get the "button smashing" argument either. Even if the combat system is a bit more faster than FFXI (which was SLOW), it doesnt take the strategy element away from the encounters. I think as the combat system is bit faster it really just makes it possibly even harder as you will have to be able to do right choises in less time. It will combine strategy and reflexes etc(gameplay), and not be just about strategy, and that's what makes MMO engame really exciting I think. I wouldnt say that stuff like Pandemonium Warden or Absolute Virtue were hard in the way they shouldve been back then. It's not really hard when it just takes a billion hours to complete, its hard when its hard no matter how long the battle is. For example in WoW the encounters take like 15mins max and they are still very challenging on heroic modes. Most of the people here who say that WoW is easy mode havent probably tried out the actual endgame content. The thing blizzard did right with wow is that there's stuff to do for hardcore gamers (arena, heroic raids) while still being easily accessable by newcomers or casuals.

But about FFXIV. For what I tried the game in beta, the combat speed for me was probably the best in any game yet. 2s GCD keeps it away from being mindless buttonsmasher and gives time to think your next move, but its not as slow as FFXI was. Now if they just come up with some great and challenging boss mechanics for crystal tower etc the game will be awesome.

No matter which game you like, you should try to take those rose colored glasses off and see the game as it really is. I really loved FFXI and WoW aswell. Those were very different kind of games and both had some flaws. I remember defending FFXIV 1.0 because I was so big fan of FF back then (still am but 1.0 teached me something). Now I really just want to think of the game as it is and leave the fan-glasses somewhere else.

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 6:29am by Mekiri


Right, modern MMO's have every bit of strategy implemented in 1.0, and 2.0 so far, but at a faster clip. People can think and press at the same time. As this stands, I think this game is a 500-750k initial sub kind of game, with the outdated battles being the weakest link. If they completely stole Rift's battle mechanics, people would be saying this is the 2nd coming of jesus and the thing would be at 1-3 million players I feel. It simply a superior battle flow. You feel like you're playing something instead of menu managing like a RTS player who probably isn't really suited for MMORPGs.

Hopefully by bahamut's lair we're spamming a variety of macros and buttons, obeying mechanics, watching the environment, and all of this relatively slow and boring era is behind us. FF is holding this FF back.
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#53 Jun 19 2013 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
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benjjjamin wrote:
Right, modern MMO's have every bit of strategy implemented in 1.0, and 2.0 so far, but at a faster clip. People can think and press at the same time. As this stands, I think this game is a 500-750k initial sub kind of game, with the outdated battles being the weakest link. If they completely stole Rift's battle mechanics, people would be saying this is the 2nd coming of jesus and the thing would be at 1-3 million players I feel. It simply a superior battle flow. You feel like you're playing something instead of menu managing like a RTS player who probably isn't really suited for MMORPGs.

Hopefully by bahamut's lair we're spamming a variety of macros and buttons, obeying mechanics, watching the environment, and all of this relatively slow and boring era is behind us. FF is holding this FF back.


I disagree. Rift's battle system was boring to me. I didn't find it tactical at all, I found myself just constantly spamming whatever the next skill in my rotation was, rarely even needing to think about any type of management whatsoever. I found it extremely boring and predictable and it was one of the main reasons I stopped playing. I don't think changing to Rift's battle mechanics would increase their sub base by 2-4 times as much, I think they just need to really polish what's here already; tune up the difficulty in dungeons, and make some of the abilities more reactive, branching, timing based, or a combination of all 3.

I also think that until we are able to see what it's like at level 50 in some of the harder content, all we are talking about is the building blocks, not the finished product.

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 3:57pm by BartelX
#54 Jun 19 2013 at 2:11 PM Rating: Decent
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The only way they can increase the challenge here are in raid mechanics (hoopjumping), and up the boss damage and dps checks. Standard MMO fare. Players will intellectualize these challenges like they did in 11. They will take the jobs that guarantee success and leave the jobs that risk failure in town. That's what happens in a simplistic MMO like FFXI that doesn't have many ways to up the challenge.

People are looking for an excuse to play a FF MMO as opposed to a blizzard series or a generic but great game like Rift. I don't know how far you got in rift, but maxed out gear was by no means an indication that you were going to perform well in it. It was a player's MMO. I think too many times people who want a thinker's mmo just have trouble with what the genre is now.

This game doesn't allow for any more thinking and strategy than any other mmo when all is said and done. And this pretense is at the expense of the general sub-paying base's impression of the battles that for all intents and purposes looks like a slow WoW circa 2007.

We will see in phase 4 once people start climbing crystal tower, if it's available. However, by then if this system is slow for the sake of strategy that is never going to be there past standard things we've seen a hundred times already, no one but old FFXI fans are going to play a strategy mmo that has no deep strategy.
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#55 Jun 19 2013 at 2:16 PM Rating: Default
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
So we're complaining about the endgame of a game that doesn't have endgame yet. Cool.


Actually it looks like the initial thing was complaining about an endgame for a game that no longer exists.


I wasn't complaining about anything. I took a look at the boss videos from 1.0 and compared it to 2.0. The difficulty did not seem elevated, nor did it seem to exist. I want this game to have challenge when I reach 50 and if players are already challenged by such fights, SE may not push it much further. For MMO vets, the current level of difficulty is low. I only asked if the general consensus among people who played long enough to reach endgame in V1 was that it was hard and if so, then why. I'm not sure why people are so sensitive in this community, it was a valid question. If you don't want to answer it and have nothing to offer the conversation, why even reply?

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I also think that until we are able to see what it's like at level 50 in some of the harder content, all we are talking about is the building blocks, not the finished product.


An mmo is a game full of building blocks for it's entire life-span. They are ever changing, and ever evolving. The hard fact is, MMO junkies expect certain things to exist right off the bat these days. Challenging endgame is one of those things. I didn't say the graphics weren't beautiful, that the quests weren't nicely done, and that the combat hasn't improved from 1.0. The game is going in the right direction. I don't want to sit around and repeat the positives , it's redundant. Some people want to have discussions about areas that require work and I asked for the opinions of players on both sides of the fence. Even a guy who has downed bosses in 4 or 5 different MMOs (Including XIV) gets the red arrow just for providing feedback on the topic. It's ridiculous.

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 4:23pm by Transmigration
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#56 Jun 19 2013 at 2:24 PM Rating: Good
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The fight of ifrit you see at E3 is the level 30 story line quest fight (Easy Mode) hard mode is a level 50 fight and much harder. youre comparing 2 different fights and by the time the video of that ifrit fight was taken (1 whm video) people knew the fight, the strategy, how to win etc etc. people will have to restrategise all the old content as jobs/abilities have changed in their capabilities.
#57 Jun 19 2013 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Asukuu wrote:
The fight of ifrit you see at E3 is the level 30 story line quest fight (Easy Mode) hard mode is a level 50 fight and much harder. youre comparing 2 different fights and by the time the video of that ifrit fight was taken (1 whm video) people knew the fight, the strategy, how to win etc etc. people will have to restrategise all the old content as jobs/abilities have changed in their capabilities.


What was there to know? Don't stand in big red circles, heal the tank. The WHM barely even moved the entire time and all the tank did was face ifrit toward the outer circle. That is about as basic as a level15 5 man dungeon boss can get.

If that is the level of complexity the majority of the players want, that is what they'll get. Anyone on the beta forums who even mentions that the challenge level needs to be raised up a bar gets the same negative response they would on here. That will not breed a better game, it will hold it back from becoming respected and competitive in the gaming world. Two things that I'm fairly positive SE would like to accomplish.
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#58 Jun 19 2013 at 2:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Why not just wait and see?

I understand endgame is so important to alot of people, but we're still in beta for ARR. I have no idea what bearing, if any, 1.0's endgame fights will have on ARRs. But why try to spoil it for yourself?

You say yourself you just want enjoy Eorzea and goof around. Why not just do that and not worry about endgame yet?

My view on something challenging/tactical is an event/boss that keeps whipping my ***. Period. It's that simple.

#59 Jun 19 2013 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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benjjjamin wrote:
We will see in phase 4 once people start climbing crystal tower, if it's available. However, by then if this system is slow for the sake of strategy that is never going to be there past standard things we've seen a hundred times already, no one but old FFXI fans are going to play a strategy mmo that has no deep strategy.


I could be wrong, but I don't think Crystal Tower will be in until after launch. I haven't found much deep strategy in any mmo lately, Rift included, but I think if anyone can pull it off, it's Yoshida. So far, he's done a brilliant job of reinventing this game imo, and I think he has the knowledge and experience to make combat enjoyable, tactical, and challenging.

benjjamin wrote:
The only way they can increase the challenge here are in raid mechanics (hoopjumping), and up the boss damage and dps checks. Standard MMO fare. Players will intellectualize these challenges like they did in 11. They will take the jobs that guarantee success and leave the jobs that risk failure in town. That's what happens in a simplistic MMO like FFXI that doesn't have many ways to up the challenge.


Why can't they do things like make bosses with unique strategies, or even certain encounters that require a much greater sense of timing, such as using different abilities in conjunction to unlock weaknesses in the boss? Or make battles that require everyone to be focused on separate parts of a boss, but doing so at a consistent pace? I mean, there are a million different things they can do to increase the difficulty in unique ways just with the encounters themselves. And as long as they make all jobs viable for these encounters, and give each of them a role to fill, no one will be left behind.

As far as Rift I dabbled a bit in endgame Rift, I did some GSB and RoS and even a bit of Hammerknell (think I made it through 3 or 4 of the bosses before I got bored and quit). I didn't find it engaging or all that strategic. It played very similarly to swtor endgame, which wasn't all that tactical either. It was basically, figure out the mechanic of the fight, go through it a couple times until you understood it, then beat it. Heck, I found some of the battles in swtor (HM Soa, Nightmare Mode Kephess) to be more challenging and interesting than anything I fought in Rift. Maybe I just didn't get far enough along, I dunno.

Transmigration wrote:
Even a guy who has downed bosses in 4 or 5 different MMOs (Including XIV) gets the red arrow just for providing feedback on the topic. It's ridiculous.


Hey, don't look at me. I agree with you. It seems like if you even mention other games on this forum you will get rated down. And heaven forbid you talk about how to make the game more challenging. We might not see exactly eye to eye, but I absolutely agree that I want the game to have a great deal of challenging content.

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 4:44pm by BartelX
#60 Jun 19 2013 at 2:47 PM Rating: Good
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benjjjamin wrote:
The only way they can increase the challenge here are in raid mechanics (hoopjumping), and up the boss damage and dps checks. Standard MMO fare. Players will intellectualize these challenges like they did in 11. They will take the jobs that guarantee success and leave the jobs that risk failure in town. That's what happens in a simplistic MMO like FFXI that doesn't have many ways to up the challenge.

People are looking for an excuse to play a FF MMO as opposed to a blizzard series or a generic but great game like Rift. I don't know how far you got in rift, but maxed out gear was by no means an indication that you were going to perform well in it. It was a player's MMO. I think too many times people who want a thinker's mmo just have trouble with what the genre is now.

This game doesn't allow for any more thinking and strategy than any other mmo when all is said and done. And this pretense is at the expense of the general sub-paying base's impression of the battles that for all intents and purposes looks like a slow WoW circa 2007.

We will see in phase 4 once people start climbing crystal tower, if it's available. However, by then if this system is slow for the sake of strategy that is never going to be there past standard things we've seen a hundred times already, no one but old FFXI fans are going to play a strategy mmo that has no deep strategy.

I agree with you about the "niche" not playing ARR if it isn't greatly strategic. But FF fans who are not familiar with mmos care more about the story and things not being diluted or made grindy just because it's an mmo.

The majority of people who do not play mmos don't because either the payment model or the grind associated with mmos.
#61 Jun 19 2013 at 3:14 PM Rating: Good
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Hatamaz wrote:
Why not just wait and see?

I understand endgame is so important to alot of people, but we're still in beta for ARR. I have no idea what bearing, if any, 1.0's endgame fights will have on ARRs. But why try to spoil it for yourself?

You say yourself you just want enjoy Eorzea and goof around. Why not just do that and not worry about endgame yet?

My view on something challenging/tactical is an event/boss that keeps whipping my ***. Period. It's that simple.



The problem is momentum. If we wait to say hey wait I've played 12 years of mmos and this pattern for this battle presentation feels like it's short....after it has happened it's too late. People are already quitting at that point. People said wait and see how 1.0 is.

Something can be done about it now to secure some guarantees for the future raiding feel.
We can wait and lay out our expectations at the same time in case we're heading in the wrong direction again. It feels like we are heading back to FFXI with this, and that is a bad thing.
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#62 Jun 19 2013 at 3:22 PM Rating: Decent
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benjjjamin wrote:
Hatamaz wrote:
Why not just wait and see?

I understand endgame is so important to alot of people, but we're still in beta for ARR. I have no idea what bearing, if any, 1.0's endgame fights will have on ARRs. But why try to spoil it for yourself?

You say yourself you just want enjoy Eorzea and goof around. Why not just do that and not worry about endgame yet?

My view on something challenging/tactical is an event/boss that keeps whipping my ***. Period. It's that simple.



The problem is momentum. If we wait to say hey wait I've played 12 years of mmos and this pattern for this battle presentation feels like it's short....after it has happened it's too late. People are already quitting at that point. People said wait and see how 1.0 is.

Something can be done about it now to secure some guarantees for the future raiding feel.
We can wait and lay out our expectations at the same time in case we're heading in the wrong direction again. It feels like we are heading back to FFXI with this, and that is a bad thing.


I think he meant wait and see what the actual endgame is like. In 1.0, the wait and see mentality was in response to all the awful mechanics that people fully experienced in the beta, and the gamebreaking lag. People assumed SE would have it fixed by launch or shortly after, and they didn't. They were tangible systems that people actually played through. The endgame at this point isn't available, so it's a bit of a different beast.

Everyone likes their own style of game. What is fun for some is boring for others. I don't want a copy of FFXI combat, but if it takes some parts of that and mixes them with some parts of other games, and then throws in some innovation of its own, which is more what I'm hoping to seeing, I'd be very happy with that.
#63 Jun 19 2013 at 3:46 PM Rating: Good
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Regardless of the initial difficulty, all of the fights will become at least somewhat easy. Once someone figures out a viable strategy that's simple to repeat, you end up with the same routine battles that occur in pretty much every MMO. If you want it be challenging, you'll have to make it artificially difficult. You could try using less people or inventing strategies outside the norm. I realize how inefficient that is with regard to obtaining gear, but it is a way to make things more fun.
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#64 Jun 19 2013 at 5:05 PM Rating: Good
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Parathyroid wrote:
It is an absolute fact that FF XI boss fights required careful planning and strategy... This can't be denied, and I won't even entertain a conversation to the contrary (specifically regarding BCNMs and the such.)

I don't think a mainstream MMO will ever have boss fights like that again.


Yes... kiting, or tank'n'spank, or zerg rush.

Oh yes, no MMO will ever top the ever so elusive "NO ONE TOUCH THE BOSS BECAUSE TP MOVES ARE RIDICULOUS SO JUST TP AND GET OUT!"

As far as BCNMs go? Go read up on every single strategy and what do they all say?

"Don't be stupid and you'll win."

That's all it takes in FFXI: Don't. Be. Stupid. I'm sorry if you can't accept it after all these years but it wasn't a difficult game when it came to boss fights. It either was boring, had a bullsh*t mechanic (en-Death, en-Doom, Death, Doom aura, Chainspell Death, AoE Death, *CHARM*, 30-60 second Terror, etc.), or was just designed to be kited. Want to know what they did to up difficulty? They gave something ridiculous defense or evasion OR gave it the ability to completely nullify physical or magical damage (or both) at whim simply to artificially extend fights.

The only two fights that are somewhat unique I can think of (that I have fought) are Odin and P.Warden. Odin has Zentetsuken which you can kneel.... or run out of range for the 10-15 seconds it takes him to use it. P.Warden is just a battle of attrition and ******** design: go through all the phases to get to actually fighting him (and his 8 little BLM that spam -ga 3/4 spells), get him to 74% where he immediately spawns all avatars over a wide area and has them use Astral Flow (which kills you), and you get someone to hold zombie hold him while the alliance recovers from weakness so you can push him to 49% and die again, so you can recover to push him to 24% so you can die again, so you can recover so you can finally kill him.............or just take a lot of pet classes, sic on him, and run *WAY* out of range..... or use SMNs to throw up perfect dodge and pray you kill him with a DPS zerg before it wears off.

~~~~

Frankly as long as the team moves away from the terrible fights we've had in FFXI I'll be glad. The "hard" fights in FFXI were about RNG and whether you rolled a 1 or a 20.

****, I think I still have a screenshot of a tank that died on Ultima because he double attacked and died.... because Ultima countered and that ignores all armor. So he countered with two 1200 hits. RNGFANTASY'YO!

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 7:08pm by Viertel
#65 Jun 19 2013 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
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Yoshida has pre-emptively killed several things from ffxi that endgamers used as crutches and called strategy.
1. Glass ranged cannons. Not gonna ruin another ff mmo with them.
2. Manaburns. Timed agas were specifically called out by yoshi as bland endgaming.
3. Field grinding. No more lolthf, "I'm a moron autoreplace" mentality.
4. Exclusive supply formats. A group of players, by receiving content, no longer blocks any other group from the same content. Claiming is dead.

What's left from ffxi is a stand and wait feature during battles. I have yet to see an articulate point describing its purpose. If it is to teach conservation, and hold back for spike damage phases, there are better ways to implement that strategy.

It is true that you can't spike damage in Rift. When the game calls for acute dps checks you either have it or you don't. But yoshida already killed one spike damage mechanic in this game, manaburning. It wasn't strategy. It was imbalance.


Edited, Jun 19th 2013 7:27pm by I'dbenjjjamin



Edited, Jun 19th 2013 7:29pm by benjjjamin
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#66 Jun 19 2013 at 5:42 PM Rating: Decent
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But yeah to have trans' one post to go sub default here is shameful. There is no reason for that kind of smalltown mob mentality, and people should be embarassed.

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 7:43pm by benjjjamin
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#67 Jun 19 2013 at 7:20 PM Rating: Decent
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benjjjamin wrote:
I have yet to see an articulate point describing its purpose. If it is to teach conservation, and hold back for spike damage phases, there are better ways to implement that strategy.


I think you have yet to see it because you don't like the idea of resource management or not constantly producing top DPS. To you, that is bad gameplay. I get that. I disagree and would prefer it to the constant button spam I saw in Rift or certain classes of swtor. Like I've said numerous times, it's matter of personal preference, not a matter of good or bad gameplay.

You don't have to just stand around like you seem to think. There are other options, such as kiting adds, positioning yourself for optimum damage from abilities (ie, lnc or pug being behind or to the side of the mob based on the attack), you can run out of AoE range or mob WS/abilities, you can use cross-class buffs or abilities, you can do light off-healing, you can focus on another mechanic in the battle (such as hiding behind rocks in the garuda battle to avoid the AoE attack), you can throw a debuff onto the mob, etc. There are countless things to do in a system like this that not only are effective, but will help you manage resources and still offer a tactical edge while not just standing around. You just have to open up your imagination to the possibilities.

benjjjamin wrote:
But yeah to have trans' one post to go sub default here is shameful. There is no reason for that kind of smalltown mob mentality, and people should be embarassed.


I hate the rate down button, far too often I think it's people who just can't handle others opinions but won't post an opinion of their own.

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 9:37pm by BartelX
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#68 Jun 19 2013 at 7:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Also expect to be rated down for talking about karma Smiley: tongue
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#69 Jun 19 2013 at 7:39 PM Rating: Good
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First rule of Karma: You don't talk about karma.

Also, you really shouldn't let Karma scores bother you. They'll go up and down for the most inane reasons. Just stay constructive and you'll do fine.
#70 Jun 19 2013 at 7:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Right. While I agree with BartelX on the karma system I also don't take it too seriously. I only down vote people if they're acting like douchebags, not because I disagree with them.
#71 Jun 19 2013 at 7:57 PM Rating: Good
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BrokenFox wrote:
Right. While I agree with BartelX on the karma system I also don't take it too seriously. I only down vote people if they're acting like douchebags, not because I disagree with them.


The problem is, a lot some people downvote just because they don't like someone or disagree with what someone says, and that's where I think the system is rather broken.

Edited because I realize I was being a bit over the top.

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 10:17pm by BartelX
#72 Jun 19 2013 at 7:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Transmigration wrote:
Asukuu wrote:
The fight of ifrit you see at E3 is the level 30 story line quest fight (Easy Mode) hard mode is a level 50 fight and much harder. youre comparing 2 different fights and by the time the video of that ifrit fight was taken (1 whm video) people knew the fight, the strategy, how to win etc etc. people will have to restrategise all the old content as jobs/abilities have changed in their capabilities.


What was there to know? Don't stand in big red circles, heal the tank. The WHM barely even moved the entire time and all the tank did was face ifrit toward the outer circle. That is about as basic as a level15 5 man dungeon boss can get.

If that is the level of complexity the majority of the players want, that is what they'll get. Anyone on the beta forums who even mentions that the challenge level needs to be raised up a bar gets the same negative response they would on here. That will not breed a better game, it will hold it back from becoming respected and competitive in the gaming world. Two things that I'm fairly positive SE would like to accomplish.


/facepalm

This was the FIRST primal introduced to the game, in 1.0 there were latency issues where if you didnt move early enough you were hit, IE if it looked like you were no where near the eruptions you could still get hit. Yes this is the easiest fight in the game now, no its not challenging anymore. Yoshi has said multiple times that new endgame content will be hard to figure out. I dont know how many times i have to say things before people understand them..its like you dont read anything i write. And i can only speak for 1.0 combat as the level 30 ifrit fight was 2 shotable by a lv50 blm, now the scenario quests are level sync'd.
#73 Jun 19 2013 at 8:05 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
BrokenFox wrote:
Right. While I agree with BartelX on the karma system I also don't take it too seriously. I only down vote people if they're acting like douchebags, not because I disagree with them.


The problem is, a lot of people downvote just because they don't like someone or disagree with what someone says, and that's where I think the system is rather broken.


And that's a matter of opinion. I happen to disagree. I think if a person's post is inflammatory or even unpopular this gives someone an avenue to express it without it necessarily devolving into a flame war. Those who continue to argue to simply be contrary provide more opportunity for posters to provide such feedback and the reputation carries.

It's more often or not, not really the matter of topic, but how it is addressed or delivered that becomes the determining factor of an up or down arrow. Yes, opinion can sway that as well, but that's the nature of the beast, agreeing with it or not.

Of course no system is perfect, but I feel as if this one does well for what it is. There have been several occasions where I think official boards such as FFXIV's should really have them. If not thing else, it show's the way the winds of opinion are going.
#74 Jun 19 2013 at 8:15 PM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
BartelX wrote:
BrokenFox wrote:
Right. While I agree with BartelX on the karma system I also don't take it too seriously. I only down vote people if they're acting like douchebags, not because I disagree with them.


The problem is, a lot of people downvote just because they don't like someone or disagree with what someone says, and that's where I think the system is rather broken.


And that's a matter of opinion. I happen to disagree. I think if a person's post is inflammatory or even unpopular this gives someone an avenue to express it without it necessarily devolving into a flame war.


This intrigues me. Are you saying that you will downvote a post based on if it's already been rated down and rate up if it's already been rated up? Or were you meaning something else? And yes, you're right... like most posts on this forum, it is a matter of opinion.
#75 Jun 19 2013 at 8:31 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:


This intrigues me. Are you saying that you will downvote a post based on if it's already been rated down and rate up if it's already been rated up? Or were you meaning something else? And yes, you're right... like most posts on this forum, it is a matter of opinion.


Not so much in the sense you are speaking of. But voting does take a sort of trend. Someone who is getting voted down is more likely to receive multiple votes rather than single ones, simply because it causes someone to pause, analyze the post more deeply, and then tally themselves either towards or against the trend. Therefore, the stronger or more keen word usage, the more likely you will see it down or up voted. If that post is contrary or overtly aggressive, it typically means multiple down-votes.

So yes, I'm more lightly to weigh in if I see votes being given around.

And granted, this is just my impressions of the system. If I'm getting down-voted I stop and ponder the reason why. Not just in popularity of opinion, but in my writing tone and approach as well. Usually, making an adjustment in my tone changes the way the results are headed.

But I also know from personal experience that having the option to vote, especially on something trending downward, allows me to to simply leave my vote without the need to speak up, and potentially add to the drama already brewing. It's a buffer for my temperament and I feel that it actually works on the psychological level for many people - giving them validation or expression without having to be outspoken about it in the manners many of us end up rolling our eyes at.

The same goes for upvoting. Instead of making seem like someone is being crowded by too many pressing opinions, or making it feel like a 'fanboi gathering', I'll upvote ideas or posts I find to be worth encouraging more of.

I may then later come back and express myself in a more constructive manner in either case, time permitting.
#76 Jun 20 2013 at 7:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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With what I've seen from Yoshi-P so far, I have very little reason to doubt him at this point. He took a game that most people will agree was broken and made it playable. Also, it's on record that he's a gamer as well. I think the endgame will be challenging. We just have to be patient and understand that as far as endgame ideas go, he's playing chess with a hardcore gamer base that has seen it all. Not saying that all MMO or FF players are hardcore, but that there are groups out there that will figure out boss encounters in a matter of days.
#77 Jun 20 2013 at 8:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
BrokenFox wrote:
Right. While I agree with BartelX on the karma system I also don't take it too seriously. I only down vote people if they're acting like douchebags, not because I disagree with them.


The problem is, a lot some people downvote just because they don't like someone or disagree with what someone says, and that's where I think the system is rather broken.

Edited because I realize I was being a bit over the top.

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 10:17pm by BartelX


I tend to up vote people who are either very thought provoking (as opposed to just emotionally provocative) or who express an idea I agree with or would have posted myself, but in a clearer fashion than I would have done.

I tend to down vote only when someone is engaging in a negative pattern, either by a banal expression of negativity (beating a dead horse), or by being so inflammatory or engaging in personal attacks that have no possible purpose except to pick a fight.

I tend to up vote much more than I down vote, but my down votes tend to go the same posters over and over, while up votes tend to be spread around more.
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"I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids."

Gen. Jack D. Ripper, General, USAF
#78 Jun 20 2013 at 8:36 AM Rating: Good
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I was going to write out a big response about this, but there's really no point. It's been made abundantly clear that the system won't be changing. That's fine.

The only other thing I'll say is, I think it frustrates a lot of people to have to constantly edit what they're going to say and walk around on eggshells if they don't want to get rated down. For those posters without a 6k posting reservoir, it's a lot more noticeable when they get rate downs, and I feel like a lot of people don't even say what they're really thinking for fear that they'll just get rated into oblivion for having a dissenting point of view. I certainly don't think the system encourages people to speak their mind freely all the time.
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