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Another, more in-depth response from Yoshi-P regarding F2PFollow

#52 Jun 19 2013 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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Dragoons were the highest DPS in 1.23 if played to potential.

The problem was to maintaining that potential, as it was reliant on having both high gear, and maintaining Power Surge which ,pre buff, was a pain to maintain. Post buff there wasn't really a competition among the high tiers. Only fights they fell behind on were very context specific ones where you essentially stacked BLM to speed-run until the fight actually got difficult.

That said, it may be debatable that they have the highest skill floor of the group now, with the most TP regeneration to prevent starvation and the highest Potency Per attack skills in the game, if FFXIVDB is accurate.

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 5:49pm by Hyrist
#53 Jun 19 2013 at 3:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Smiley: lol You guys make my Day! Smiley: lol Swotor had far more end game than this game will have..... So that's one X

The combat system was broken in Swotor, and class balancing and pvp revolve around what ? Crafting ? Gathering ? Oh! Combat.... Hmmm! It sort of makes Sense.... Smiley: lol


Agree to disagree I guess. Moving on.


Smiley: clap 10 rate ups from me!
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#54 Jun 19 2013 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
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I just tend not to post when I disagree with Ostia. He hasn't quite crossed the line with me where I feel the need to vent, and I've decided to have my own little space for that instead of fowling up forums with it and risking my memberships.

That said, I disagree with him frequently, and this is no exception. Rather than argue the red herrings being used as examples, I'd rather just reiterate my confidence in the current combat system and the fact that as a vanilla, it is in a good position as a framework to evolve from.

Most if not all issues being complained about can be addressed in future patches. Though I would like an adjustment to the TP starvation issue. Perhaps TP restoration pots seeming we're able to have Mana Restoration pots in the game.

Other than that, I feel we're feeling good and comfortable for a phase three. More work needs to be done, of course, but SE's not in any danger at all of moving to a free to play model. In fact the only fear is how long it would take for them to make a return off their already significant investment. Lucky for them, the can afford the long term still.
#55 Jun 19 2013 at 3:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
Smiley: lol You guys make my Day! Smiley: lol Swotor had far more end game than this game will have..... So that's one X

The combat system was broken in Swotor, and class balancing and pvp revolve around what ? Crafting ? Gathering ? Oh! Combat.... Hmmm! It sort of makes Sense.... Smiley: lol

Also remember how many of you said "Oh wait we don't even got limit breaks yet" Well we do now... They are a bad gimmick that add no depth to a combat system already is the most shallow one i have seen in the past 6-8 years.... Oh and classes are not balanced either :) My lancer would destroy my pug in any sort of dps fight.



SWTOR sucked though. They prided themselves on that awesome voiceover work that after about 2 quests everyone just started skipping through, the character movement was very unrealistic, and otherwise it just felt like any other sandbox "get in-get your loot- get out and move on to the next MMO" MMO out there.
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#56 Jun 19 2013 at 4:22 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Smiley: lol You guys make my Day! Smiley: lol Swotor had far more end game than this game will have..... So that's one X

The combat system was broken in Swotor, and class balancing and pvp revolve around what ? Crafting ? Gathering ? Oh! Combat.... Hmmm! It sort of makes Sense.... Smiley: lol


Agree to disagree I guess. Moving on.


That's Cool! We can discuss combat as we get higher on the Beta :P
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#57 Jun 19 2013 at 4:25 PM Rating: Good
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I am curious, Ostia, for all your criticism of it, do you have a specific suggestion in mind in how to improve it?

Let's keep things in the scope of what's realistic for what's pretty much the last adjustment phase. Are there any single thing in particular that would greatly aid things in your view?
#58 Jun 19 2013 at 4:34 PM Rating: Default
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electromagnet83 wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Smiley: lol You guys make my Day! Smiley: lol Swotor had far more end game than this game will have..... So that's one X

The combat system was broken in Swotor, and class balancing and pvp revolve around what ? Crafting ? Gathering ? Oh! Combat.... Hmmm! It sort of makes Sense.... Smiley: lol

Also remember how many of you said "Oh wait we don't even got limit breaks yet" Well we do now... They are a bad gimmick that add no depth to a combat system already is the most shallow one i have seen in the past 6-8 years.... Oh and classes are not balanced either :) My lancer would destroy my pug in any sort of dps fight.



SWTOR sucked though. They prided themselves on that awesome voiceover work that after about 2 quests everyone just started skipping through, the character movement was very unrealistic, and otherwise it just felt like any other sandbox "get in-get your loot- get out and move on to the next MMO" MMO out there.


You do know the same argument can be made about ARR as it is right now Right ? Just switch voice overs with cut scenes and other than that, as it stands today, is a "Get in get your loot get out"
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#59 Jun 19 2013 at 4:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hatamaz wrote:
Ostia wrote:
My lancer would destroy my pug in any sort of dps fight.


Wait, so you're saying Dragoons will actually be wanted for parties?!


That is a stunning shift in worldview for someone from XI...

The only people I knew back then who wanted Dragoons, were Dragoons playing other jobs for the sake of getting a party!

About **** time!
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#60 Jun 19 2013 at 5:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyrist wrote:
I am curious, Ostia, for all your criticism of it, do you have a specific suggestion in mind in how to improve it?

Let's keep things in the scope of what's realistic for what's pretty much the last adjustment phase. Are there any single thing in particular that would greatly aid things in your view?


Indeed! First off they have 3 problems that are overlapping with each other, one is the GCD, the other is encounter design, and class balance... Now class balance is the easiest to fix, my pug in beta, is no match for my dragoon in any sort of DPS fight, long or short i will beat him, so will archer also, but that can be balanced afterwards, it is not my main concern with the combat.

First off they need to take all the abilities that are not combo out of the GCD, there is no logical reason for a pug's heymaker to be tied to the cool down of his initiating attack, heymaker is a reaction ability and a bad one at that, it does less dps than my 1, and it has to be triggered by me evading an attack, so if i am fighting a boss, i will have to put myself in harms away in order for it to trigger, and if it does, then i need to make a choice, do i keep my combo going which will in the end get me the highest dps possible, or do i wait for the CD and hit heymaker for a low dps attack that adds a 20% slow ? As a DPS i should never put myself in danger, and the combat should reward me for playing correctly, i am pretty sure another class can add the same slow with little to no risk involved, heymaker is an ability that is there, just to be there, there was no tactical or strategic thinking involved when they created it. Also my dot should not be tied to my cool down, neither should evade, or second chance, this are abilities that should be ready to use when i demand them to be ready, not when combat dictates (For example in WOW my evade as a rogue is not tied to my GCD nor is 90% of my abilities, if i get aggro from a boss, i hit vanish and the aggro resets, i do not need to wait 2-4 seconds for the global to cool off) that is how GCD should work here.

Now the biggest problem in my opinion they have is encounter design, and i will tell you why, monsters are easy, bosses are easy, up to haker manor, there is no challenge involved, now will this change ? Who knows! From what i saw, they nerfed tam tara into the ground from phase 2 to phase 3, and there was really no need to do that, tam tara was easy already, but it was kinda long, so it balanced itself out in the end, right now is just another version of sashtasha, even their end boss is the same gimick. Unless they address encounter design, anything else they do will only result in the game being seen as "Easy" if they remove the GCD restrictions, now everybody will have even more abilities to spam, and 2 shot mobs left and right, because monsters are already a joke, now i am not asking for regular quest mobs to be buffed to XI levels, but atleast the dungeons ones should be different, and they are not, even as a PUG, i can tank a mob in a dungeon, kill it and laugh all the way to the bank, on the same level, if i where in wow, and i got aggro from a mob, i would be dead, or forced to use vanish or evade until the tank got the aggro, in ARR... the tank has little to no worries, if an add gets past him, even the healer can tank it long enough for one of the dps to wake up or the tank to actually do his job.

Oh and another gripe is auto attack, they are way to slow, to even consider counting them as the main source of DPS, i can use 3 abilities for one auto attack i get off... That is broken.
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#61 Jun 19 2013 at 5:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Very nicely said. I haven't looked yet but someone should post this on the official beta forums, if it's not there all ready. Would love to see the chaos that ensues with it.
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#62 Jun 19 2013 at 5:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Love how he called out the 'Free To Play is the wave of the future' BS attitude that a lot of game developers have. No, the industry isn't changing, your game just isn't worth the money.

My respect for Yoshida has gone up.
#63 Jun 19 2013 at 5:36 PM Rating: Decent
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I am SOOOOOOO glad to have this guy as the lead developer. He just gets it!
#64 Jun 19 2013 at 5:49 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia I agree on the cases of Class Balance (which will always be a continuing development) and Encounter design, which again, will be a developmental issues.

However I am more tolerant of the idea of Encounter design, simply because we are talking the first 35 levels here. Now. You say up to Hakke manor, I have to question whether or not you have tested the new instances in full again. If so then I'd like you ask for a list of improvements that could be made to each one, in your opinion.

The reason why I am asking you to extrapolate so far in this is because I feel as if the answer to the depth of encounter design has to be instilled in each an every major encounter separately. Creating common tropes to encounter design should only really come into play for say Guildhests. Each fight in terms of bosses should feel unique, in my opinion.

Keep in mind: Instilling challenge, especially in a primarily leveling environment, becomes a matter of debatable degrees. These dungeon runs are supposed to be the equivalent of XP parties, not necessarily the 1.xx dungeon crawls we had before. So the idea is that these dungeons be challenging enough to be educational, but no so much that they cease to be productive as a leveling tool. This is the impression from Yoshida's words and the development angle I've manged to infer.

So I'd love to start breaking down each one with you and talk about the mechanics behind it, and how to raise the challenge without harming the productivity. I take great joy in this kind of theory-crafting and, if you'll entertain me, I'd like to share that joy with you.

The one criticism I cannot agree with is the GCD. Honestly at this point it I feel as if it harms nothing. Major buffs and chains still run off of a form of cooldown, be it buffs and specific attacks that run on individual cooldowns, or skills that have special conditions or debuff timers that discourage spamming. I feel they've properly mitigated the harmful components of the GCD while still keeping a decent pacing in the game itself. I also view it is unlikely they will further change it as it complicates other blance issues.

So let's focus on the other two topics for now.

Edited, Jun 20th 2013 12:45am by Hyrist
#65 Jun 19 2013 at 6:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Smiley: lol You guys make my Day! Smiley: lol Swotor had far more end game than this game will have..... So that's one X

The combat system was broken in Swotor, and class balancing and pvp revolve around what ? Crafting ? Gathering ? Oh! Combat.... Hmmm! It sort of makes Sense.... Smiley: lol

Also remember how many of you said "Oh wait we don't even got limit breaks yet" Well we do now... They are a bad gimmick that add no depth to a combat system already is the most shallow one i have seen in the past 6-8 years.... Oh and classes are not balanced either :) My lancer would destroy my pug in any sort of dps fight.



SWTOR sucked though. They prided themselves on that awesome voiceover work that after about 2 quests everyone just started skipping through, the character movement was very unrealistic, and otherwise it just felt like any other sandbox "get in-get your loot- get out and move on to the next MMO" MMO out there.


You do know the same argument can be made about ARR as it is right now Right ? Just switch voice overs with cut scenes and other than that, as it stands today, is a "Get in get your loot get out"


Incorrect sir. Swtor firstly looked like your run of the mill "click and drag terrain" level editor was used and some Star Wars lore was added in. Eorzea on the other hand is actually a pretty world that I enjoy exploring and anticipate uncovering new and interesting areas. That feeling wasn't there in SWTOR for me, or anyone I knew of. It was in fact "get in ,dress up your grown up version of a male barbie doll as quickly as possible and move on to the next MMO waiting around the corner
standard MMO. Even WoW, to its credit, has at least a uniquely designed interesting world to explore. On the cutscenes...I didn't find myself skipping through them in FFXIV, I did in SWTOR. Of course that could be because I hate existing in a movie franchise where you "level up" your character. To me that is silly. Same with the Matrix, same with LOTRO, same with any game that is a movie-turned-MMO. I never saw Luke Skywalker grinding mobs and yelling in excitement over getting his next level. That type of process is normal in RPGs however, so it's actually acceptable, and fun.


....and end rant.
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#66 Jun 19 2013 at 6:21 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
I am curious, Ostia, for all your criticism of it, do you have a specific suggestion in mind in how to improve it?

Let's keep things in the scope of what's realistic for what's pretty much the last adjustment phase. Are there any single thing in particular that would greatly aid things in your view?


Indeed! First off they have 3 problems that are overlapping with each other, one is the GCD, the other is encounter design, and class balance... Now class balance is the easiest to fix, my pug in beta, is no match for my dragoon in any sort of DPS fight, long or short i will beat him, so will archer also, but that can be balanced afterwards, it is not my main concern with the combat.

Give the weaker job a small damage buff, increase it a bit more or tone it down with feedback.

First off they need to take all the abilities that are not combo out of the GCD, there is no logical reason for a pug's heymaker to be tied to the cool down of his initiating attack, heymaker is a reaction ability and a bad one at that, it does less dps than my 1, and it has to be triggered by me evading an attack, so if i am fighting a boss, i will have to put myself in harms away in order for it to trigger, and if it does, then i need to make a choice, do i keep my combo going which will in the end get me the highest dps possible, or do i wait for the CD and hit heymaker for a low dps attack that adds a 20% slow ? As a DPS i should never put myself in danger, and the combat should reward me for playing correctly, i am pretty sure another class can add the same slow with little to no risk involved, heymaker is an ability that is there, just to be there, there was no tactical or strategic thinking involved when they created it. Also my dot should not be tied to my cool down, neither should evade, or second chance, this are abilities that should be ready to use when i demand them to be ready, not when combat dictates (For example in WOW my evade as a rogue is not tied to my GCD nor is 90% of my abilities, if i get aggro from a boss, i hit vanish and the aggro resets, i do not need to wait 2-4 seconds for the global to cool off) that is how GCD should work here.

Tieing about everything to a global cooldown makes things sort of one dimensional and breaks up the flow.

Now the biggest problem in my opinion they have is encounter design, and i will tell you why, monsters are easy, bosses are easy, up to haker manor, there is no challenge involved, now will this change ? Who knows! From what i saw, they nerfed tam tara into the ground from phase 2 to phase 3, and there was really no need to do that, tam tara was easy already, but it was kinda long, so it balanced itself out in the end, right now is just another version of sashtasha, even their end boss is the same gimick. Unless they address encounter design, anything else they do will only result in the game being seen as "Easy" if they remove the GCD restrictions, now everybody will have even more abilities to spam, and 2 shot mobs left and right, because monsters are already a joke, now i am not asking for regular quest mobs to be buffed to XI levels, but atleast the dungeons ones should be different, and they are not, even as a PUG, i can tank a mob in a dungeon, kill it and laugh all the way to the bank, on the same level, if i where in wow, and i got aggro from a mob, i would be dead, or forced to use vanish or evade until the tank got the aggro, in ARR... the tank has little to no worries, if an add gets past him, even the healer can tank it long enough for one of the dps to wake up or the tank to actually do his job.

Open world or regular fights on trash mobs shouldn't be a battle of attrition, but dungeons and raid need to be more difficult. If it is not, party defined roles get trivialized. Some people whine about the trinity system. You know what's worse? Not needing a role in a full party of strictly designed roles.

Oh and another gripe is auto attack, they are way to slow, to even consider counting them as the main source of DPS, i can use 3 abilities for one auto attack i get off... That is broken.


I agree with everything you wrote above except maybe this. I think I'd prefer the main source of DPS to come from firing special skills off. If auto attack dot becomes the main source of damage. Then that makes haste buffs in gear or spells or job weapon delay define which job performs better if accuracy is not an issue. In my opinion gear should be important. But that doesn't help combat feel more rewarding. All that does is make it clear that the person with good gear or buffs always wins, whether they earned that or not.

Skill shouldn't be defined by something you are barely controlling besides being in range or some job having an advantage in a dot enhancing ability over the others
.

#67 Jun 19 2013 at 6:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Smiley: lol You guys make my Day! Smiley: lol Swotor had far more end game than this game will have..... So that's one X

The combat system was broken in Swotor, and class balancing and pvp revolve around what ? Crafting ? Gathering ? Oh! Combat.... Hmmm! It sort of makes Sense.... Smiley: lol


Agree to disagree I guess. Moving on.


That's Cool! We can discuss combat as we get higher on the Beta :P


Smiley: nod I should have a fair amount of time to play early on Friday... not really sure after that. We're going up to my parents camp Friday night to Saturday. They have wi-fi, but my fiance probably wouldn't be too happy with me gaming while we're on a mini-vacation. Hopefully I'll get some time to play Saturday when we get home. Maybe I can fake an illness. Smiley: tongue

Ostia wrote:
Indeed! First off they have 3 problems that are overlapping with each other, one is the GCD, the other is encounter design, and class balance... Now class balance is the easiest to fix, my pug in beta, is no match for my dragoon in any sort of DPS fight, long or short i will beat him, so will archer also, but that can be balanced afterwards, it is not my main concern with the combat.

First off they need to take all the abilities that are not combo out of the GCD, there is no logical reason for a pug's heymaker to be tied to the cool down of his initiating attack, heymaker is a reaction ability and a bad one at that, it does less dps than my 1, and it has to be triggered by me evading an attack, so if i am fighting a boss, i will have to put myself in harms away in order for it to trigger, and if it does, then i need to make a choice, do i keep my combo going which will in the end get me the highest dps possible, or do i wait for the CD and hit heymaker for a low dps attack that adds a 20% slow ? As a DPS i should never put myself in danger, and the combat should reward me for playing correctly, i am pretty sure another class can add the same slow with little to no risk involved, heymaker is an ability that is there, just to be there, there was no tactical or strategic thinking involved when they created it. Also my dot should not be tied to my cool down, neither should evade, or second chance, this are abilities that should be ready to use when i demand them to be ready, not when combat dictates (For example in WOW my evade as a rogue is not tied to my GCD nor is 90% of my abilities, if i get aggro from a boss, i hit vanish and the aggro resets, i do not need to wait 2-4 seconds for the global to cool off) that is how GCD should work here.

Now the biggest problem in my opinion they have is encounter design, and i will tell you why, monsters are easy, bosses are easy, up to haker manor, there is no challenge involved, now will this change ? Who knows! From what i saw, they nerfed tam tara into the ground from phase 2 to phase 3, and there was really no need to do that, tam tara was easy already, but it was kinda long, so it balanced itself out in the end, right now is just another version of sashtasha, even their end boss is the same gimick. Unless they address encounter design, anything else they do will only result in the game being seen as "Easy" if they remove the GCD restrictions, now everybody will have even more abilities to spam, and 2 shot mobs left and right, because monsters are already a joke, now i am not asking for regular quest mobs to be buffed to XI levels, but atleast the dungeons ones should be different, and they are not, even as a PUG, i can tank a mob in a dungeon, kill it and laugh all the way to the bank, on the same level, if i where in wow, and i got aggro from a mob, i would be dead, or forced to use vanish or evade until the tank got the aggro, in ARR... the tank has little to no worries, if an add gets past him, even the healer can tank it long enough for one of the dps to wake up or the tank to actually do his job.

Oh and another gripe is auto attack, they are way to slow, to even consider counting them as the main source of DPS, i can use 3 abilities for one auto attack i get off... That is broken.


I spoiler tagged this long post of yours so that my post isn't a mile long, but I just wanted to let you know that this is an excellent write up Ostia, and I'd highly encourage you to post it to the combat feedback section of the beta forums. I think it paints a great picture as to what they could do to improve combat mechanics, and I agree with pretty much everything you pointed out (that I've done so far, I can't comment on dungeons since I didn't get to em).

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 9:08pm by BartelX
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#68 Jun 19 2013 at 7:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
I am curious, Ostia, for all your criticism of it, do you have a specific suggestion in mind in how to improve it?

Let's keep things in the scope of what's realistic for what's pretty much the last adjustment phase. Are there any single thing in particular that would greatly aid things in your view?


Indeed! First off they have 3 problems that are overlapping with each other, one is the GCD, the other is encounter design, and class balance... Now class balance is the easiest to fix, my pug in beta, is no match for my dragoon in any sort of DPS fight, long or short i will beat him, so will archer also, but that can be balanced afterwards, it is not my main concern with the combat.

First off they need to take all the abilities that are not combo out of the GCD, there is no logical reason for a pug's heymaker to be tied to the cool down of his initiating attack, heymaker is a reaction ability and a bad one at that, it does less dps than my 1, and it has to be triggered by me evading an attack, so if i am fighting a boss, i will have to put myself in harms away in order for it to trigger, and if it does, then i need to make a choice, do i keep my combo going which will in the end get me the highest dps possible, or do i wait for the CD and hit heymaker for a low dps attack that adds a 20% slow ? As a DPS i should never put myself in danger, and the combat should reward me for playing correctly, i am pretty sure another class can add the same slow with little to no risk involved, heymaker is an ability that is there, just to be there, there was no tactical or strategic thinking involved when they created it. Also my dot should not be tied to my cool down, neither should evade, or second chance, this are abilities that should be ready to use when i demand them to be ready, not when combat dictates (For example in WOW my evade as a rogue is not tied to my GCD nor is 90% of my abilities, if i get aggro from a boss, i hit vanish and the aggro resets, i do not need to wait 2-4 seconds for the global to cool off) that is how GCD should work here.

Now the biggest problem in my opinion they have is encounter design, and i will tell you why, monsters are easy, bosses are easy, up to haker manor, there is no challenge involved, now will this change ? Who knows! From what i saw, they nerfed tam tara into the ground from phase 2 to phase 3, and there was really no need to do that, tam tara was easy already, but it was kinda long, so it balanced itself out in the end, right now is just another version of sashtasha, even their end boss is the same gimick. Unless they address encounter design, anything else they do will only result in the game being seen as "Easy" if they remove the GCD restrictions, now everybody will have even more abilities to spam, and 2 shot mobs left and right, because monsters are already a joke, now i am not asking for regular quest mobs to be buffed to XI levels, but atleast the dungeons ones should be different, and they are not, even as a PUG, i can tank a mob in a dungeon, kill it and laugh all the way to the bank, on the same level, if i where in wow, and i got aggro from a mob, i would be dead, or forced to use vanish or evade until the tank got the aggro, in ARR... the tank has little to no worries, if an add gets past him, even the healer can tank it long enough for one of the dps to wake up or the tank to actually do his job.

Oh and another gripe is auto attack, they are way to slow, to even consider counting them as the main source of DPS, i can use 3 abilities for one auto attack i get off... That is broken.


Excellent post, I'd rather see people post ideas than just complain about the state of things. You should copy/paste this into our problems/solutions sticky, the community reps are aware of it.

My one thought about this regarding the instanced raids: for at least the first 3, I'm thinking they're as easy as they are beacuse they're directly tied to main storyline progression and are the first dungeons new players encounter. I'm hoping the Toto Rak tier and up are at least the same as Phase 2 or even a bit harder. We'll see this weekend I hope, I should be read for TTR at least.
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#69 Jun 19 2013 at 9:06 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Smiley: lol You guys make my Day! Smiley: lol Swotor had far more end game than this game will have..... So that's one X


Uh.. you call 1 planet and 4 instances a robust endgame? SWTORs endgame was "Why don't you roll another character!?"

But I actually like your combat suggestions and really hope you post them to the Beta forums.

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 11:07pm by Louiscool
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#70 Jun 19 2013 at 10:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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I hereby submit a simple rebuttal:

I'll accept your subscription based fee when your account management and payment system is all first party billing with a single user ID/password system and does not require such inane tripe as secure card or gimicky credits like crysta.

Blizzard's subscription based system works because one does not need to jump through hoops and sign up for x amount of third party billing systems just to give a company my hard earned dollars. One can be up and running in minutes: not hours.

And blizzard ALSO has a really healthy micro transaction system in addition to that subscription based fee. I'm sure they'd love to educate SE on things like "yearly averages" for micro transaction profits.


SE's account billing system has in the past burned myself and friends/relatives very badly more than a few times in the past. I *LOVE* what I'm seeing with ARR, but I'm still very doubtful of setting up a subscription simply BECAUSE it's a 3+ hour long ordeal every time I get the itch to give SE my money. I should not have to work that hard to give someone money, anytime, EVER.

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#71 Jun 19 2013 at 10:44 PM Rating: Good
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My only standing advice for that is fairly easy to follow - pay with a credit card (you can do that now) and buy yourself a security token (Or do they have a smartphone app now? I forget.)

Doing these two things will save you an incredible amount of hassle.
#72 Jun 20 2013 at 5:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Smiley: lol You guys make my Day! Smiley: lol Swotor had far more end game than this game will have..... So that's one X


Uh.. you call 1 planet and 4 instances a robust endgame? SWTORs endgame was "Why don't you roll another character!?"

But I actually like your combat suggestions and really hope you post them to the Beta forums.

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 11:07pm by Louiscool


All dungeons where Heroic for cap level, and it had 4 exclusive dungeons, a planet and 2 raids.

As it stands right now, we are going to repeat the 1.0 story arc, Beastman > Primals > Empire > Big bad Dragon.... As for end game content, besides the already used primals, we will have a few dungeons, an incomplete tower, and behamut lair which i bet you, you will not be able to fight behamut at release :)
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#73 Jun 20 2013 at 5:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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electromagnet83 wrote:
Ostia wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Smiley: lol You guys make my Day! Smiley: lol Swotor had far more end game than this game will have..... So that's one X

The combat system was broken in Swotor, and class balancing and pvp revolve around what ? Crafting ? Gathering ? Oh! Combat.... Hmmm! It sort of makes Sense.... Smiley: lol

Also remember how many of you said "Oh wait we don't even got limit breaks yet" Well we do now... They are a bad gimmick that add no depth to a combat system already is the most shallow one i have seen in the past 6-8 years.... Oh and classes are not balanced either :) My lancer would destroy my pug in any sort of dps fight.



SWTOR sucked though. They prided themselves on that awesome voiceover work that after about 2 quests everyone just started skipping through, the character movement was very unrealistic, and otherwise it just felt like any other sandbox "get in-get your loot- get out and move on to the next MMO" MMO out there.


You do know the same argument can be made about ARR as it is right now Right ? Just switch voice overs with cut scenes and other than that, as it stands today, is a "Get in get your loot get out"


Incorrect sir. Swtor firstly looked like your run of the mill "click and drag terrain" level editor was used and some Star Wars lore was added in. Eorzea on the other hand is actually a pretty world that I enjoy exploring and anticipate uncovering new and interesting areas. That feeling wasn't there in SWTOR for me, or anyone I knew of. It was in fact "get in ,dress up your grown up version of a male barbie doll as quickly as possible and move on to the next MMO waiting around the corner
standard MMO. Even WoW, to its credit, has at least a uniquely designed interesting world to explore. On the cutscenes...I didn't find myself skipping through them in FFXIV, I did in SWTOR. Of course that could be because I hate existing in a movie franchise where you "level up" your character. To me that is silly. Same with the Matrix, same with LOTRO, same with any game that is a movie-turned-MMO. I never saw Luke Skywalker grinding mobs and yelling in excitement over getting his next level. That type of process is normal in RPGs however, so it's actually acceptable, and fun.
....and end rant.


We are gonna have to disagree, since you are giving me your Opinion! And a personal opinion cannot be right or wrong, you did not enjoy swotor for it's lore ? Cool! I know a lot of people that did, i found it immersion in it's world, and story, you din't that's ok, but to say is any different than ARR because is based on a movie... well that's kinda silly, also how can you be sure, this will not be another one step until the next MMO comes along ? ARR success is far from granted Smiley: smile

As for the barbie doll thing, well funny you say that, since in ARR you do the same, you dress your doll up, and you go out and do the same exact thing you did in swotor, just with different lore, the only scene that was not skip worthy was the one when you get your airship, other than that, all the other ones, where you run in the mill scenes.
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#74 Jun 20 2013 at 6:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
As it stands right now, we are going to repeat the 1.0 story arc, Beastman > Primals > Empire > Big bad Dragon.... As for end game content, besides the already used primals, we will have a few dungeons, an incomplete tower, and behamut lair which i bet you, you will not be able to fight behamut at release :)


Actually... I don't think the Tower of Lab come out at release... First major Patch....

But what they are saying, and we will just have to see if they follow through, is that content will come more frequently and faster, where SWTOR started with that content, they were VERY slow to add more and the players got bored. ****, lack of content is why I went back to FFXIV during the welcome back campaign!

The story of SWTOR was the best feature. It felt like a single player KOTOR.

Quote:
'll accept your subscription based fee when your account management and payment system is all first party billing with a single user ID/password system and does not require such inane tripe as secure card or gimicky credits like crysta.


Isn't that how it is now? I mean, I found it insanely simple to log into the SE Account Managment System and handle everything.
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#75 Jun 20 2013 at 6:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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seneleron wrote:
I hereby submit a simple rebuttal:

I'll accept your subscription based fee when your account management and payment system is all first party billing with a single user ID/password system and does not require such inane tripe as secure card or gimicky credits like crysta.

Blizzard's subscription based system works because one does not need to jump through hoops and sign up for x amount of third party billing systems just to give a company my hard earned dollars. One can be up and running in minutes: not hours.

And blizzard ALSO has a really healthy micro transaction system in addition to that subscription based fee. I'm sure they'd love to educate SE on things like "yearly averages" for micro transaction profits.


SE's account billing system has in the past burned myself and friends/relatives very badly more than a few times in the past. I *LOVE* what I'm seeing with ARR, but I'm still very doubtful of setting up a subscription simply BECAUSE it's a 3+ hour long ordeal every time I get the itch to give SE my money. I should not have to work that hard to give someone money, anytime, EVER.



You have a single user ID and password for this game, it's your SE Account. They accept credit cards instead of crysta. The only thing I would concede is the site isn't the easiest to navigate, but the rest of your points have been addressed long ago. Now if this were FFXI, you'd have a point, I don't know why they don't just get rid of the POL ID and password, I suspect it is a PS2 limitation Smiley: laugh
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#76 Jun 20 2013 at 7:17 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Now if this were FFXI, you'd have a point, I don't know why they don't just get rid of the POL ID and password, I suspect it is a PS2 limitation Smiley: laugh

Is there any kind of statistic as to how many people are still playing FFXI exclusively on the PS2? If they chopped the dead weight and gave XI a good once over without burdening themselves because of "PS2 limitations' I bet it would do a good job reinvigorating the game.

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#77 Jun 20 2013 at 8:17 AM Rating: Good
Wint wrote:
seneleron wrote:
I hereby submit a simple rebuttal:

I'll accept your subscription based fee when your account management and payment system is all first party billing with a single user ID/password system and does not require such inane tripe as secure card or gimicky credits like crysta.

Blizzard's subscription based system works because one does not need to jump through hoops and sign up for x amount of third party billing systems just to give a company my hard earned dollars. One can be up and running in minutes: not hours.

And blizzard ALSO has a really healthy micro transaction system in addition to that subscription based fee. I'm sure they'd love to educate SE on things like "yearly averages" for micro transaction profits.


SE's account billing system has in the past burned myself and friends/relatives very badly more than a few times in the past. I *LOVE* what I'm seeing with ARR, but I'm still very doubtful of setting up a subscription simply BECAUSE it's a 3+ hour long ordeal every time I get the itch to give SE my money. I should not have to work that hard to give someone money, anytime, EVER.



You have a single user ID and password for this game, it's your SE Account. They accept credit cards instead of crysta. The only thing I would concede is the site isn't the easiest to navigate, but the rest of your points have been addressed long ago. Now if this were FFXI, you'd have a point, I don't know why they don't just get rid of the POL ID and password, I suspect it is a PS2 limitation Smiley: laugh


Oh god LMAO Wint you just made my morning! Smiley: laugh
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#78 Jun 20 2013 at 9:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Anakte wrote:
Wint wrote:
Now if this were FFXI, you'd have a point, I don't know why they don't just get rid of the POL ID and password, I suspect it is a PS2 limitation Smiley: laugh

Is there any kind of statistic as to how many people are still playing FFXI exclusively on the PS2? If they chopped the dead weight and gave XI a good once over without burdening themselves because of "PS2 limitations' I bet it would do a good job reinvigorating the game.



A quick look over at the FFXIV beta forums tells me all some people really want is a HD FFXI makeover anyway.
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#79 Jun 20 2013 at 5:17 PM Rating: Decent
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When the dust settles upon the game releasing, the reviews come in, and we see how many people sub in the short term and long term. Is when we will see the fruits of Yoshi's labor. Whether those fruits be good or bad can't be known before then. So any opinion formed now is just that, whether it supports Yoshi or not.

I often seem to rant about how I want the combat to have depth added. But if you don't like the story, quests, or systems in place. I do not see that changing. This game is going to be very different from FFXI because it has a different director/producer. I say it's ok to share opinions, but let's not ridicule or take away joy from the people who are loving the core please. It's pointless to try and convince someone to either love or hate a game.
#80 Jun 21 2013 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Anakte wrote:
Wint wrote:
Now if this were FFXI, you'd have a point, I don't know why they don't just get rid of the POL ID and password, I suspect it is a PS2 limitation Smiley: laugh

Is there any kind of statistic as to how many people are still playing FFXI exclusively on the PS2? If they chopped the dead weight and gave XI a good once over without burdening themselves because of "PS2 limitations' I bet it would do a good job reinvigorating the game.



Only enough in Japan to have warranted releasing the last xpac on it. NA never saw it.

I like Yoshi-P's response, except in the case of Rift. He almost has it right with regards to the investors in that situation. For a long time they held a really high subscription rate - well relative to WoW and XI anyway - but mismanagement of the game itself caused them to have to go F2P. It was a great game for a long time and then they sunk their best resources into that joint venture with Syfy which is a novelty at best, and the top guys all jumped ship when they saw the writing on the wall.

SWTOR is kind of a similar situation. BioWare was a company that had vision and really cared about making a magnificent gaming experience. Then EA.

That is all.
#81 Jun 21 2013 at 7:37 PM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:
Anakte wrote:
Wint wrote:
Now if this were FFXI, you'd have a point, I don't know why they don't just get rid of the POL ID and password, I suspect it is a PS2 limitation Smiley: laugh

Is there any kind of statistic as to how many people are still playing FFXI exclusively on the PS2? If they chopped the dead weight and gave XI a good once over without burdening themselves because of "PS2 limitations' I bet it would do a good job reinvigorating the game.



SWTOR is kind of a similar situation. BioWare was a company that had vision and really cared about making a magnificent gaming experience. Then EA.

That is all.

There is a degree of truth there, but the counter-argument does exist.

Dragon Age 2

I rest my case :P
#82 Jun 21 2013 at 8:09 PM Rating: Default
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Why does he explain why Star Wars and RIFT didn't start as F2P, as if he knows the inner workings of the companies behind them?

He doesn't even acknowledge that plenty of games do start off with F2P models from the beginning, and some of those games have been hugely popular and profitable (certainly more popular and profitable than FFXIV ever was).

The only thing that's going to annoy me is if they add a Cash Shop+P2P and the anti-F2P people defend it. Because that would literally be the F2P model but with a subscription on top. I know that World of Warcraft does it (and Yoshi-P even compares to Blizzard in OP's quote) and Yoshi-P wants his game to be like WoW.
#83 Jun 21 2013 at 9:03 PM Rating: Default
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Maybe it's due to translation but there are a few things he states that follow his examples, but don't really seem to make sense.

Overall it's a nice breakdown of the differences between subscription based and F2P business models. I don't get why having a subscription based model would guarantee that the 400k subs who were there the previous month will not be cut by a large amount and remain consistent. There is clear evidence that shows otherwise. Perhaps he meant he was suggesting that it was less likely to happen?

The explanation about the cycle is great, but if you looked to FFXI as an example, consistent subscribers != consistent content releases. Their best work came before they rose above the red line. I could make the case that not knowing if you're going to eat next month makes you hustle your *** off to make it happen.

XIV tripled it's subscriber base during the development of ARR... Legacy? I don't really care if it was the legacy drive or not, but that would make an even stronger case for F2P Smiley: wink

Yoshi wrote:
Choosing the model that’s right for your product and being successful with that is what’s important. We believe that the bigger the game, the larger the scale of the MMO, it’s going to be better for the game if it’s on a subscription model.


So ultimately, going with a subscription model was decided because of the scale of the MMO? I wish I knew what he meant by scale, because the amount of bytes your world occupies seems completely irrelevant to the business model. Must procure the squiggly version and try to decipher this.

Yoshi wrote:
We hear a lot of people saying, “Star Wars is free-to-play now, it’s great!” But then you ask them if they’re playing free-to-play Star Wars and they say, “No, not really playing it.” If you spend all that money on a game ,release it, and it’s filled with bugs and you don’t have enough time to do your updates, people will leave. Players need that new content. Not being able to provide it is fatal. If they were able to produce as much content as players wanted, then people would have stayed there. We don’t really believe it’s a problem with the business model.

XIV 1.0 was F2P for most of it's lifespan. No one played it and no one thought it was great. I'm not seeing the connection here.

At least he understands that XIV failed because of the lack of content. My only concern is that it is going to take too long for him to put XIV in the shape it needs to be in to contend. Putting SWtoR on blast like that... he's writing some pretty hefty checks. Not only that, but based on his own words he is going to go above and beyond any F2P game solely because a consistent income means more content. Gonna be a long summer...

Edited, Jun 21st 2013 11:04pm by FilthMcNasty
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#84 Jun 22 2013 at 3:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty:

Well, it's quite simple. If you take into account (among others) the pricing differences of FF XIV:ARR and a B2P or F2P game (GW2 comes to mind with its $59.99 price-tag), a player can easily buy the standard edition of ARR and sub for a couple of months before he decides whether to keep this long-term.

Remember that the game does indeed offer 30 days free with every purchase. So - In my mind, it's very easy to ascertain whether you want to be involved with something for the medium term or want to just get the POS uninstalled and move on with your life.

SWTOR, since you mentioned it, and I wrote about it earlier in this thread, was a prime example of corporate incompetence. From design choices (They were heralding the "mass PVP" features only to suffer from an engine which had no capability of rendering >10-20 characters on the screen properly, without all players suffering FPS on the single digits), to project management (Even major features which included the Legacy System or new content were delayed to infinity. I just found out that it's an 18 months game and paid character transfers only now (!) will make their appearance) to obvious attempts to cut costs from day 1 (You would expect a response from an in-game ticket to take less than 10 days, for a simple item restoration or something, right? Yeah, me too. Or bugs being left unfixed for weeks upon weeks? Yeah....), I could go on and on and on in 3000 words about why a subscription to this monstrosity was not justified.

And although not an avid SW fan, I very much liked the concept of playing a "futuristic" MMO, where even the transportation system or mounts were hovercrafts. Talk about awesome.

There's this, then:

F2P and B2P and P2P are all valid revenue models for a game. Whether a game can "pull off" an option of these properly, is largely dependent on game design and content.

There are games which are F2P-oriented from the beginning, but alienate players by offering "pay to win" avenues, where the richest douchebag emptying the cash shop dominates the game.

There are games which have tried the B2P model and remained relatively decent, GW2 comes to mind, but even them could not cater to the needs of a large percentage of players, who left the game and did not come back. (PvE players, and PVP players who wished RvR / WvW to be more meaningful than a gimmick)

There are games which have a community passionate enough about the game to continue P2P. EVE Online is a prime example, and of course WOW, which could easily profit from F2P more than anyone else. But why change to a F2P model when P2P works for you as a company? That's the whole spirit of the debate.

And if FF XIV's developers and SE continue listening and responding to feedback, they have all the potential in the world to do great. Not maintain 3,000,000 subscriptions, no, but at the very least create a game which will have a successful presence in three (! - PC, PS3, PS4 in 2014) platforms.

I think they are up to the task, mainly because Yoshida is an MMO gamer himself, and not a random manager having loads of "brilliant ideas to bring in more money". The first rule of an MMO is: If it has no content, nobody will stick around with it, and I'm pretty sure they know that all too well.
#85 Jun 22 2013 at 6:54 PM Rating: Decent
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His post today was very long winded, and at the end he said he had more to say.

Yoshi, you can't please everyone.
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