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The Giant Slayer is That You?Follow

#1 Jun 19 2013 at 5:44 PM Rating: Decent
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So... let me start by saying, I have already equipped my "flame shield +1" so please no personal attacks, I'm hoping to keep the conversation civil... even on subsequent posts 3 pages from now, please no name calling.

Next I'd like to say I truly believe I am a huge critic of this game, I am absolutely furious about some of the decisions they've made... Almost a barrage of attacks upon the hardcore elite MMO players. I think they've taken casual, and said "more-is-better." Nonetheless, I am finding something strange going on here. I think people LOVE this game. I LOVE this game (I hate it too, but I fricking love it.)

I believe this game has the potential to be the next major blockbuster MMO that shakes up the market... Think about it. The game is going to release multiplatform, then right when it's going strong, it's going to release again for PS4.

With the system requirements they've made you can play it on ANY computing device (don't even try and tell me you can't... I have a 4 year old macbook and the game runs as smooth as a Ferrari.)

Here's the part that makes me think it's going to shake up the MMO scene... while I'm in game, I hear people raving, RAVING about the game. You hear isolated grumbles, but for the most part people are excited about this. Like seriously excited... as am I. Which is odd because I thought the amount of dumbed down play they added would be a major detractor from the experience... but I have to say, dumbed down can still be fun if it's done right... and this game is just fun, there isn't much more to say.

I know this is a bold prediction, but I think there might be a new bully on the block who is ready to take on the ultimate giant, "WoW." The time is perfect, WoW is getting old, people want something new... and I think FF XIV ARR might just be the game which is going to give it a run for it's money.

Kudos to SE for taking a disaster of epic, I mean EPIC proportions and turn the dial 180 to give us something which could be a success of epic, and I mean EPIC proportions. Wow, I'm truly impressed by you SE... haven't said that in **** far too long.



Edited, Jun 20th 2013 9:14am by Wint Lock Thread: Waaaaaaay off topic now.
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#2 Jun 19 2013 at 5:51 PM Rating: Good
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Like most things in this world, the game has good points and bad, positives and negatives.

Let the proof be in the pudding; before we congratulate FFXIV on toppling anything beyond the meager expectations left from the initial launch of the game, let's wait until it actually does it.
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#3 Jun 19 2013 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
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You can't judge a MMO after a few days. You gotta play for a while to try and judge the lasting appeal. Most new MMO's seem amazing at first cause they are introducing new concepts and things to see. Its only after everything is no longer new can you judge the actual quality. So, imo, the jury is still out on this game. Although early excitement is never bad.

And secondly, please lets not already doom this game by hoping or expecting it to be a WoW challenger. That game is an aberration and there will never be anything like it. It'd be great if the MMO community could stop trying to judge every new MMO based on WoW's success and if MMO developers and publishers could stop expecting to replicate that success. Lets just hope this game is a sustainable game for SE and that it will be supported for many years to come. Actual sub numbers or how much money it makes really should be of no consequence to people who don't hold stock in SE.
#4 Jun 19 2013 at 6:00 PM Rating: Good
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Yunchang wrote:
Like most things in this world, the game has good points and bad, positives and negatives.

Let the proof be in the pudding; before we congratulate FFXIV on toppling anything beyond the meager expectations left from the initial launch of the game, let's wait until it actually does it.


Hey I agree... I'm not saying we have the next sure thing on our hands here. I AM saying we have all the necessary ingredients.
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#5 Jun 19 2013 at 6:04 PM Rating: Good
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Arjuncorpse wrote:
You can't judge a MMO after a few days. You gotta play for a while to try and judge the lasting appeal. Most new MMO's seem amazing at first cause they are introducing new concepts and things to see. Its only after everything is no longer new can you judge the actual quality. So, imo, the jury is still out on this game. Although early excitement is never bad.

And secondly, please lets not already doom this game by hoping or expecting it to be a WoW challenger. That game is an aberration and there will never be anything like it. It'd be great if the MMO community could stop trying to judge every new MMO based on WoW's success and if MMO developers and publishers could stop expecting to replicate that success. Lets just hope this game is a sustainable game for SE and that it will be supported for many years to come. Actual sub numbers or how much money it makes really should be of no consequence to people who don't hold stock in SE.



Agreed. I am simply hoping for sustainable entertainment I had with XI. Give me that and I can care less who the big kid on the block is.


P.S. But I really like your love/hate enthusiasm OP ^^

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 8:07pm by ShindaUsagi
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#6 Jun 19 2013 at 6:15 PM Rating: Good
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Im only hoping for a console MMORPG that:

a) doenst suck (ie is better than 1.0 was)

b) isnt so lacking of content you get bored of doing the same thing before 12 months is up (dcuo.. which you can do everything in 8 weeks then its just repeating teh same thing over and over for gear)

c) not expecting it to b as good or better than FFXI


ARR looks to fit all those criteria so Im happy with the product
#7 Jun 19 2013 at 6:21 PM Rating: Good
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I felt the same OP! Thought since they made it easyer it would be less fun, but i ate my hat on that one, this game is a blast lol. The main reason i play games is to have fun, so ill be on this game for a hot min!

Iv only played two mmos before this Final Fantasy XI and Dungeon and Dragons Online im glad i didn play more so FFXIV seems super new and cool.
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#8 Jun 19 2013 at 6:23 PM Rating: Good
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I haven't played beta but I do feel that Boss-Y has taken the game in the correct direction. However, until the game celebrates it's first anniversary, I will most likely refrain from coming to a solid conclusion on whether the game is 'good'. I recall how much changed from the initial JP release of XI in comparison to the NA release 1 year later. That being said, the way that this team has embraced community feedback makes me assume we will see many tweeks and changes far beyond P4. And for the better! That is what makes me continue to be optimistic...
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#9 Jun 19 2013 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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As a game designer myself, I feel that early gameplay should be easy and it should be fun. It gradually gets more difficult as you go on and get used to the game mechanics and then you really reward people for doing the epic fights and hard modes once they've learned the mechanics.

It shouldn't be like FFXI or insert-older MMO where the gameplay starts off tough for the sake of weeding out people. You want to hook them in, and then keep them there with the challenge that comes later.
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#10 Jun 19 2013 at 6:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm hoping things go well for this game too. But, this isn't the only mmo coming to consoles anymore. All the devs saw what XI did in the console space and have followed suit.
DCUO, Defiance, Dust 514, ESO, Planetside 2, probably others I'm missing.
Then there are the new FPS mmo/whatever you want to call it hybrids coming out such as Destiny.

When Google Fiber gets US saturation. The FPS/Action/Adventure MMO scene is going to bust open faster than a hooker trying to get into a millionaires pants.

And I bet Rockstar is going to re-evaluate their stance on the mmo realm.



Edited, Jun 19th 2013 8:39pm by sandpark
#11 Jun 19 2013 at 7:23 PM Rating: Decent
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The Division did look unreal...
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#12 Jun 19 2013 at 7:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think that because it has such positives and negatives, and that it invokes such powerful emotions on top of the feeling of that Final Fantasy magic, is why outright expressions of anger or doubt, is being received so negatively. Not just here, but even on the Beta Boards.

People are upset that some of their favored mechanics are gone or altered, and some annoying mechanics are there. But rather than feeding on that frustration and finding venting or even validation on it, we need to focus on creating ideas, a constructive conversation that generates a list of concerns and possible solutions.

Of course, not all concerns or ideas will be followed. But if one thing can be said that has been proven without a doubt - is that issues are being addressed, in detail. If we provide concise feedback, with enough support behind it, they will consider it. And that's the most we can ask, realistically. In the end it is their decisions that create the final product, and our decision whether or not to accept that product as something to subscribe to. They can't please everyone and sometimes, that 'not everyone' applies to our own views or recommendations. When this happens to me, I try to stretch my comfort zone. It does not always work out, but sometimes it does and I feel better for it. In the end that's a decision we all have to make on the individual level.

But what is important is that we respect each other's passion. I've seen an aweful lot of labeling in the Beta test. "Haters" "White Knights" "Trolls" "Fanboi's" - the usual fare. However if we take the time to simply say "Ok, some things don't excite you like they do me. Or some things excite you that don't excite me." And simply let those people who are excited be so, and don't bring one another down, and don't let each other get boiled over - things could go a whole lot better for everyone.

Right now I cant tell the weekend pattern is really hurting the community, even if it is helping the testing. You pit feelings of concern, anger, excitement, along with your typical gaming withdraws symptoms and you've got a powder keg that's going to explode over and over again. And everyone's pretty much exasperated of all the drama.

Even I've blown my temper when I shouldn't have. >.> *ahem*
#13 Jun 19 2013 at 7:58 PM Rating: Default
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Arjuncorpse wrote:
You can't judge a MMO after a few days. You gotta play for a while to try and judge the lasting appeal.


I don't think anybody gives any game more than a few days to decide whether they like it...
#14 Jun 19 2013 at 8:07 PM Rating: Good
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
As a game designer myself, I feel that early gameplay should be easy and it should be fun. It gradually gets more difficult as you go on and get used to the game mechanics and then you really reward people for doing the epic fights and hard modes once they've learned the mechanics.

It shouldn't be like FFXI or insert-older MMO where the gameplay starts off tough for the sake of weeding out people. You want to hook them in, and then keep them there with the challenge that comes later.


This is maybe pedantic, but I don't think it should be easy so much as it should be challenging while allowing the player to be successful. If the game is too easy, that will definitely create a poor first impression amongst the most experienced players, who are not only likely to write it off, but to tell their friends and internet audience about it. WoW analytics reported that 75% of their new players didn't even make it past level 10. You've got to hook players right away, and when your audience has a wide range of ability levels, that means you need to have challenges that scale reasonably well from early on.

So in the sense that it shouldn't be too hard, I agree, but I don't think any MMOs are in danger of doing that. Too easy is just as bad, and many MMOs are guilty of it.

Killua125 wrote:
Arjuncorpse wrote:
You can't judge a MMO after a few days. You gotta play for a while to try and judge the lasting appeal.


I don't think anybody gives any game more than a few days to decide whether they like it...


You're both right, unfortunately. Many players will decide to quit after a few days. Many will decide to quit after a few months. Some will keep playing after a few months, but most will fall into one of the first two categories. The problem is that both of these types of players are devastating to the game in large numbers. So basically, yeah, you'll have people who will be done with the game after a few days, but just as dangerous to the game are all the people who are already convinced that they love it, only to be tired of the game three months from now. It's easy to make an MMO that's three months of fun--a successful MMO has to be three years of fun for a pretty sizable part of its population.
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#15 Jun 19 2013 at 8:11 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not saying it should be mind-numbingly easy. From what I've played, monsters like Aurelias and toads you begin to fight at level 10 which start teaching that you can't just sit up front and mash buttons and I think that's an appropriate level to start teaching the mechanics for moving out of the way.

Level 10-15 should be the time when some of the basic mechanics should be taught, after the user learns the controls and where they're going.
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#16 Jun 19 2013 at 8:33 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't know why I got sub-defaulted. I hate that feature on this forum...

I don't believe any of you can honestly say that you trudged through a game you didn't like for more than a few days, unless you were being dragged along by friends.

The thing with MMO games is that people quit very quickly if they're not enjoying it. It's not like a single player game where you might say, "I bought it... I might as well finish it." You're never going to finish the MMO, it just goes on and on, so why even bother if you're not having fun?

I think this is one of the problems with ARR. The vague promise that 'things get better' won't encourage everyone to keep going. The fact is that (especially) the early levels of the game are just mind numbingly boring.
#17 Jun 19 2013 at 8:47 PM Rating: Decent
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sandpark wrote:
I'm hoping things go well for this game too. But, this isn't the only mmo coming to consoles anymore. All the devs saw what XI did in the console space and have followed suit.
DCUO, Defiance, Dust 514, ESO, Planetside 2, probably others I'm missing.
Then there are the new FPS mmo/whatever you want to call it hybrids coming out such as Destiny.

When Google Fiber gets US saturation. The FPS/Action/Adventure MMO scene is going to bust open faster than a hooker trying to get into a millionaires pants.

And I bet Rockstar is going to re-evaluate their stance on the mmo realm.



Edited, Jun 19th 2013 8:39pm by sandpark


It is an interesting point to note that as MMORPGs are becoming less difficult to play with a large emphasis on solo play, MMOFPS/adventure games are become increasingly sophisticated, with a much higher emphasis on cooperative play.

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 10:47pm by Parathyroid

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 10:49pm by Parathyroid
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#18 Jun 19 2013 at 8:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
I don't know why I got sub-defaulted. I hate that feature on this forum...

I don't believe any of you can honestly say that you trudged through a game you didn't like for more than a few days, unless you were being dragged along by friends.

The thing with MMO games is that people quit very quickly if they're not enjoying it. It's not like a single player game where you might say, "I bought it... I might as well finish it." You're never going to finish the MMO, it just goes on and on, so why even bother if you're not having fun?

I think this is one of the problems with ARR. The vague promise that 'things get better' won't encourage everyone to keep going. The fact is that (especially) the early levels of the game are just mind numbingly boring.


Your problem is you just can't accept that people might actually be having fun with this game, regardless of future promises.
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#19Parathyroid, Posted: Jun 19 2013 at 8:53 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You know, I'm becoming increasingly irritated with the community here rating sh*t down to sub-default... most often because it's a person you perceive as being negative.
#20 Jun 19 2013 at 8:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Parathyroid wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
Arjuncorpse wrote:
You can't judge a MMO after a few days. You gotta play for a while to try and judge the lasting appeal.


I don't think anybody gives any game more than a few days to decide whether they like it...


You know, I'm becoming increasingly irritated with the community here rating sh*t down to sub-default... most often because it's a person you perceive as being negative.

I completely agree with this sentiment. I don't know anyone who says "this game blows a$$ but you know what, I'm going to give it 3 weeks to decide if it sucks..." That just doesn't happen. But since Killua said it, rate down... sub-default.


You are #12321839210749807549031845901839012839012 in line to complain about karma. Don't PM me when it bites you in the ***, I'm sick of people ******** about the system. Love it or hate it, it is not going anywhere.
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#21Parathyroid, Posted: Jun 19 2013 at 8:58 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) First of all I didn't complain about karma, second of all it didn't bit me in the ***.
#22 Jun 19 2013 at 9:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
UltKnightGrover wrote:
As a game designer myself, I feel that early gameplay should be easy and it should be fun. It gradually gets more difficult as you go on and get used to the game mechanics and then you really reward people for doing the epic fights and hard modes once they've learned the mechanics.

It shouldn't be like FFXI or insert-older MMO where the gameplay starts off tough for the sake of weeding out people. You want to hook them in, and then keep them there with the challenge that comes later.


This is maybe pedantic, but I don't think it should be easy so much as it should be challenging while allowing the player to be successful. If the game is too easy, that will definitely create a poor first impression amongst the most experienced players, who are not only likely to write it off, but to tell their friends and internet audience about it. WoW analytics reported that 75% of their new players didn't even make it past level 10. You've got to hook players right away, and when your audience has a wide range of ability levels, that means you need to have challenges that scale reasonably well from early on.

So in the sense that it shouldn't be too hard, I agree, but I don't think any MMOs are in danger of doing that. Too easy is just as bad, and many MMOs are guilty of it.

Killua125 wrote:
Arjuncorpse wrote:
You can't judge a MMO after a few days. You gotta play for a while to try and judge the lasting appeal.


I don't think anybody gives any game more than a few days to decide whether they like it...


You're both right, unfortunately. Many players will decide to quit after a few days. Many will decide to quit after a few months. Some will keep playing after a few months, but most will fall into one of the first two categories. The problem is that both of these types of players are devastating to the game in large numbers. So basically, yeah, you'll have people who will be done with the game after a few days, but just as dangerous to the game are all the people who are already convinced that they love it, only to be tired of the game three months from now. It's easy to make an MMO that's three months of fun--a successful MMO has to be three years of fun for a pretty sizable part of its population.



Fun is after all a transitory feeling. What is a barrel full of monkeys today can be a barrel full of crap 2 weeks from now... so you're right, the content will have to latch onto us not only today but keep providing a challenge or a deep sense of reward for accomplishments years from now.
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#23 Jun 19 2013 at 9:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Parathyroid wrote:
Wint wrote:
Parathyroid wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
Arjuncorpse wrote:
You can't judge a MMO after a few days. You gotta play for a while to try and judge the lasting appeal.


I don't think anybody gives any game more than a few days to decide whether they like it...


You know, I'm becoming increasingly irritated with the community here rating sh*t down to sub-default... most often because it's a person you perceive as being negative.

I completely agree with this sentiment. I don't know anyone who says "this game blows a$$ but you know what, I'm going to give it 3 weeks to decide if it sucks..." That just doesn't happen. But since Killua said it, rate down... sub-default.


You are #12321839210749807549031845901839012839012 in line to complain about karma. Don't PM me when it bites you in the ***, I'm sick of people ******** about the system. Love it or hate it, it is not going anywhere.


First of all I didn't complain about karma, second of all it didn't bit me in the ***.

I complained about people rating things down to oblivion when it's a 100% valid statement.

When did I PM you about it biting me in the ***? If you were talking to me anyway... I assume you are considering you quoted me.


This is theoretical of course. By saying the karma here irritates you that seems to me to be complaining, sorry if I misinterpreted it. It's 100% valid to YOU, but someone might disagree, and while I think they should have to justify their rating, that's not a requirement at this point.
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#24 Jun 19 2013 at 9:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Wint wrote:
Parathyroid wrote:
Wint wrote:
Parathyroid wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
Arjuncorpse wrote:
You can't judge a MMO after a few days. You gotta play for a while to try and judge the lasting appeal.


I don't think anybody gives any game more than a few days to decide whether they like it...


You know, I'm becoming increasingly irritated with the community here rating sh*t down to sub-default... most often because it's a person you perceive as being negative.

I completely agree with this sentiment. I don't know anyone who says "this game blows a$$ but you know what, I'm going to give it 3 weeks to decide if it sucks..." That just doesn't happen. But since Killua said it, rate down... sub-default.


You are #12321839210749807549031845901839012839012 in line to complain about karma. Don't PM me when it bites you in the ***, I'm sick of people ******** about the system. Love it or hate it, it is not going anywhere.


First of all I didn't complain about karma, second of all it didn't bit me in the ***.

I complained about people rating things down to oblivion when it's a 100% valid statement.

When did I PM you about it biting me in the ***? If you were talking to me anyway... I assume you are considering you quoted me.


This is theoretical of course. By saying the karma here irritates you that seems to me to be complaining, sorry if I misinterpreted it. It's 100% valid to YOU, but someone might disagree, and while I think they should have to justify their rating, that's not a requirement at this point.


Understood and I agree... You know the problem with forums is you can say something and mean it come out one way, yet 80% of the time if you aren't a master of the written word it makes you sound like an a$$hole, even if you didn't mean it to sound that way.

I meant to say, I just feel like people like Killua et al, get rated down before the person even takes a half second to consider the point they're making.

I just think a little prudence can be applied sometimes.

It's not like karma affects anything on a grand scale anyway so a "justification" is probably (almost certainly) not needed. It really just shows who doesn't stir the pot over a LARGE sample of posts Smiley: smile, and has mostly nice and happy things to say! No one, and I mean no one who says controversial things, has Guru status karma.

Edit: Also it's not the karma that annoys me, it's that Killuas entirely benign comment gets essentially removed the forum just because people have a grudge with him... Albeit, your point is taken.


Edited, Jun 19th 2013 11:18pm by Parathyroid
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#25 Jun 19 2013 at 9:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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People are going to rate him down on principle rather than evaluating what he's said, and frankly he's bought and paid for that over and over again. If I could change it I would but frankly when you post like he does you're begging for rate downs here.
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#26 Jun 19 2013 at 9:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Wint wrote:
People are going to rate him down on principle rather than evaluating what he's said, and frankly he's bought and paid for that over and over again. If I could change it I would but frankly when you post like he does you're begging for rate downs here.


Fair enough! Didn't mean to insult you/ZAM by the way, I respect what the mods and all that goes on here... I just want that to be known.
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#27 Jun 19 2013 at 9:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh don't worry, issues with Karma or how the site doesn't affect me in the slightest. This debate has been raging on long before I was an admin. I want you guys to be able to criticize the establishment here, it helps us get better. Don't get mad when we ignore you though Smiley: tongue

If nothing else being the admin of an online forum has grown me a thicker skin.
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#28 Jun 19 2013 at 9:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Wint wrote:
Oh don't worry, issues with Karma or how the site doesn't affect me in the slightest. This debate has been raging on long before I was an admin. I want you guys to be able to criticize the establishment here, it helps us get better. Don't get mad when we ignore you though Smiley: tongue

If nothing else being the admin of an online forum has grown me a thicker skin.


Lol I can seriously only imagine.

Especially given this has to be one of the most emotionally charged video game franchises that exists.

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 11:37pm by Parathyroid
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#29 Jun 19 2013 at 9:49 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:


This is theoretical of course. By saying the karma here irritates you that seems to me to be complaining, sorry if I misinterpreted it. It's 100% valid to YOU, but someone might disagree, and while I think they should have to justify their rating, that's not a requirement at this point.


I don't agree with the whole 'forced to justify perspective' especially if one of its intended functions is to prevent escalation of a conversation.

I can just see the "I rated you down because I think your statement is full of ****, and I don't want to bother explaining why." going well over with the encouragement of a positive community.
#30 Jun 19 2013 at 9:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Parathyroid wrote:


Fun is after all a transitory feeling. What is a barrel full of monkeys today can be a barrel full of crap 2 weeks from now... so you're right, the content will have to latch onto us not only today but keep providing a challenge or a deep sense of reward for accomplishments years from now.


But isn't that the crux of it? Everyone's different and have different adapting and breaking points. Ideally, you want everyone, even the most casual starter person, to go in, get hooked, and then ease themselves into the more difficult content to stay for the long term.

But where do you draw those lines? I don't think even the best game designers in the world have the answer to that, because of how varied everyone is opinion wise. So, many appeal to the lower common denominators at the start without alienating your core target audiences, and then you keep tweaking your difficulty curve until you find the niche you're comfortable with.

Problem is, most MMO's can't afford that adjustment period. SE, being in a similar business standpoint as Blizzard, can. I'm more than happy to give them that leeway. I'll be honest. I'm having fun. Not only that, but they also have me invested. Why? Because I like Final fantasy, I like the lore, I like the tropes, I like the atmosphere. I'm willing to work with them, especially after seeing what I have so far, to give them that feedback from my own personal perspective. (That they will take with Dalamud-Size chunk-o-salt, but that's to be expected). I'm not going to bother to try to make a statement for the majority - I feel that's rather presumptive of anyone who does, especially if they think it coincides exactly with their views.

Everyone has left or has stuck with a modern MMO for their own reasons, because, honestly, everyone has different thresholds of tolerance, different tastes and ease of enjoyment, and different personal triggers for investment. Everything else is speculation or agreeing/disagreeing with someone else's perspective.
#31 Jun 19 2013 at 10:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
Parathyroid wrote:


Fun is after all a transitory feeling. What is a barrel full of monkeys today can be a barrel full of crap 2 weeks from now... so you're right, the content will have to latch onto us not only today but keep providing a challenge or a deep sense of reward for accomplishments years from now.


But isn't that the crux of it? Everyone's different and have different adapting and breaking points. Ideally, you want everyone, even the most casual starter person, to go in, get hooked, and then ease themselves into the more difficult content to stay for the long term.

But where do you draw those lines? I don't think even the best game designers in the world have the answer to that, because of how varied everyone is opinion wise. So, many appeal to the lower common denominators at the start without alienating your core target audiences, and then you keep tweaking your difficulty curve until you find the niche you're comfortable with.

Problem is, most MMO's can't afford that adjustment period. SE, being in a similar business standpoint as Blizzard, can. I'm more than happy to give them that leeway. I'll be honest. I'm having fun. Not only that, but they also have me invested. Why? Because I like Final fantasy, I like the lore, I like the tropes, I like the atmosphere. I'm willing to work with them, especially after seeing what I have so far, to give them that feedback from my own personal perspective. (That they will take with Dalamud-Size chunk-o-salt, but that's to be expected). I'm not going to bother to try to make a statement for the majority - I feel that's rather presumptive of anyone who does, especially if they think it coincides exactly with their views.

Everyone has left or has stuck with a modern MMO for their own reasons, because, honestly, everyone has different thresholds of tolerance, different tastes and ease of enjoyment, and different personal triggers for investment. Everything else is speculation or agreeing/disagreeing with someone else's perspective.



The correct answer is level 21.4. Final answer Smiley: smile.

Seriously though Hyrist I respect all of your opinions. You seem to be pretty spot on with your insights, and I can't disagree with anything you laid out there...

Especially the part that SE and Blizzard are probably **** close to the only two RPG companies that can actually have the budget to make tweaks to the gameplay over a vast period of time.
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#32 Jun 19 2013 at 10:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Parathyroid wrote:
sandpark wrote:
I'm hoping things go well for this game too. But, this isn't the only mmo coming to consoles anymore. All the devs saw what XI did in the console space and have followed suit.
DCUO, Defiance, Dust 514, ESO, Planetside 2, probably others I'm missing.
Then there are the new FPS mmo/whatever you want to call it hybrids coming out such as Destiny.

When Google Fiber gets US saturation. The FPS/Action/Adventure MMO scene is going to bust open faster than a hooker trying to get into a millionaires pants.

And I bet Rockstar is going to re-evaluate their stance on the mmo realm.



Edited, Jun 19th 2013 8:39pm by sandpark


It is an interesting point to note that as MMORPGs are becoming less difficult to play with a large emphasis on solo play, MMOFPS/adventure games are become increasingly sophisticated, with a much higher emphasis on cooperative play.


It's two ends of a spectrum. The action genre has been lagging behind the fantasy rpg in the mmo department because of technological constraints. Unaffordable top end pc rigs and crappy internet bandwidth.

Middle tier pcs are very affordable now and with the route the consoles have chosen, they are close to the power of today's middle tier pc build. All that lacks now is global affordable bandwidth.

This is an opportunity for all genres to take games someplace they haven't been before.

Xbox one pulled the trigger hastily trying to force gamers into a non disc based era early. It is coming within the next 5-10 years as huge internet and hardrives become way more affordable.

Traditional fantasy mmorpgs by nature just have way more material to condense, and they have been around for decades. So as a veteran you know when developers are being lazy or padding the gameplay. As MMO/FPS/Action/Adventure games become larger and mainstream. We will probably see them start to simplify things as well.
#33 Jun 19 2013 at 10:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Here's my two cents:

The MMOs I've played the longest were , Ragnarok (because I didnt know any better), WoW (because it was fun and I had friends play) and FFXI because it was Final fantasy and I had time to devote to it.

All of the MMOs I've tried since them: Warhammer, Rift, Guild Wars 1/2, and others were pretty good. The best of those being Rift and GW2.

However they still felt hollow, and although they were very interesting mechanically and initially, they were missing something.

I got to cap, and as a casual player, I got bored.

ARR has the Final Fantasy name and things like storied quests and the armory system that I believe, grant you more of a connection to your character and the world.

Again however I'm assuming that this will retain me a bit longer than the other two games and really only retain the fans. I cannot see others or newbies sticking around unless its an objectively knock out game.

Honestly no one can say how the game will do but I do not see it taking down WoW. I think SE knows this and is planning per the Yoshi f2p interview, that their goal is to retain a solid player base a la FFXI and not to make the most money of any MMO in history.

---

Lastly, I'll leave with this: 1.0 was horrible. But when SE added the company quests, suddenly the game was tolerable. No, the fighting didn't improve, the market wards still sucked but for a brief moment with a storied goal I was enjoying myself. And that's what a Final Fantasy game is all about. So far in 2.0 everything looks acceptable. And if that's the case then all you need is content, content , content and fans will play forever.
#34 Jun 20 2013 at 3:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Parathyroid wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
Arjuncorpse wrote:
You can't judge a MMO after a few days. You gotta play for a while to try and judge the lasting appeal.


I don't think anybody gives any game more than a few days to decide whether they like it...


You know, I'm becoming increasingly irritated with the community here rating sh*t down to sub-default... most often because it's a person you perceive as being negative.

I completely agree with this sentiment. I don't know anyone who says "this game blows a$$ but you know what, I'm going to give it 3 weeks to decide if it sucks..." That just doesn't happen. But since Killua said it, rate down... sub-default.

If you think people play games that they think suck for more than a few days you a. have more intestinal fortitude than a lead pipe or b. are lying to yourself.

Edited, Jun 19th 2013 10:55pm by Parathyroid


You're not irritated with the karma system, you're irritated with the hive mind community of this game.

Quote:
All of the MMOs I've tried since them: Warhammer, Rift, Guild Wars 1/2, and others were pretty good. The best of those being Rift and GW2.

However they still felt hollow, and although they were very interesting mechanically and initially, they were missing something.

WoW and FFXI both have a lot of soul.

On a side note, Kierk did you ever pick up that project Miata? I like to work on cars too. I have a 350z and an Integra that I tinker on.


Edited, Jun 20th 2013 5:43am by Transmigration
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#35 Jun 20 2013 at 4:41 AM Rating: Good
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Transmigration wrote:


You're not irritated with the karma system, you're irritated with the hive mind community of this game.

Edited, Jun 20th 2013 5:43am by Transmigration


No i believe you are wrong. This has nothing to do with the game. I am often been rated down for posts that have nothing to do with the game. Do not blame it for everything.

I love the game but i will rarely rate someone down even if he has different opinion than me. H needs to be an a s s for me to actually rate him down.


Edited, Jun 20th 2013 6:42am by Teravibe
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#36 Jun 20 2013 at 7:08 AM Rating: Good
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I really don't expect Final Fantasy to be a WoW-killer. In fact, I'm not sure that I really want it to be. With that many players, the odds of having more immature, rude, or cruel type players is high. It's probably a pretty linear ratio to smaller games, but 8 million players will have 8x the amount of jerks that a 1 million player game has (more or less). I'd like to see this game hit a steady 1 million subscribers and keep that number, and I think it's entirely possible.

The combination of FF lore with an engaging storyline, a beautiful world, and some fairly polished and content-heavy systems should tide players over for quite a while. The big issue, like most mmos I've played, will be the endgame. Can they make it compelling enough to keep people interested. Can they make it challenging enough for hardcore players, but still accessible enough to interest the casual fans. I'm very hopeful that there will end up being many different avenues of content at endgame to satiate the different types of players. I think that's kind of what Yoshi is aiming for with stuff like Primal Battles, AF quests, and Relics to satisfy the more casual crowd, and extreme modes and Crystal Tower/Labyrinth of Bahamut for the more hardcore (not to mention PvP if it's done well).

I know I'm already invested for the long haul. I'm sick of jumping from MMO to MMO hoping it will be the next big thing. So far, this game has all the elements to satisfy me for a long time, and I have a lot of faith that Yoshi-P will keep adding to that as time goes by, based on what I've seen so far from him.

Edited, Jun 20th 2013 9:18am by BartelX
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#37 Jun 20 2013 at 7:21 AM Rating: Decent
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I have an opinion on the karma system. I think it's horrible. I'm going to guess that it does turn a lot of potential members off.

Wint can pretend it's not true but the sub-default/hidden posts usually occur when a user posts an unpopular opinion. I never post things in a rude or aggressive way. I just post my opinions, but those are usually sub-defaulted because I don't agree with the hive mind in most cases.

So, people with unique opinions will get turned off. 'Why would I post here if my posts are just going to get hidden? I would rather post somewhere where I won't get censored for speaking my mind.'

I never said I hated Final Fantasy XIV, but I definitely have some beef with certain aspects of it. I've said that I love the user interface and the music, for example. Even mixed views are not allowed here though.

Edited, Jun 20th 2013 9:24am by Killua125
#38 Jun 20 2013 at 7:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Killua125 wrote:
I have an opinion on the karma system. I think it's horrible. I'm going to guess that it does turn a lot of potential members off.

Wint can pretend it's not true but the sub-default/hidden posts usually occur when a user posts an unpopular opinion. I never post things in a rude or aggressive way. I just post my opinions, but those are usually sub-defaulted because I don't agree with the hive mind in most cases.

So, people with unique opinions will get turned off. 'Why would I post here if my posts are just going to get hidden? I would rather post somewhere where I won't get censored for speaking my mind.'

I never said I hated Final Fantasy XIV, but I definitely have some beef with certain aspects of it. I've said that I love the user interface and the music, for example. Even mixed views are not allowed here though.

Edited, Jun 20th 2013 9:24am by Killua125


You are not a snowflake.

The reason everything you post is auto-defaulted and (i'm guessing) not a small percentage of the population here have you on ignore is because of things like what you just posted.

You just stated that you're not rude, then went on to bash everyone else in the forum who doesn't have the same opinion as you.

Grow up.
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#39 Jun 20 2013 at 7:31 AM Rating: Decent
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LebargeX wrote:
You are not a snowflake.

The reason everything you post is auto-defaulted and (i'm guessing) not a small percentage of the population here have you on ignore is because of things like what you just posted.

You just stated that you're not rude, then went on to bash everyone else in the forum who doesn't have the same opinion as you.

Grow up.


I didn't bash everyone in the forum.

You're reading my posts and misinterpreting them as being aggressive or rude, and that's not my fault. That's your fault for jumping to conclusions.

I'm tough on Square Enix, a company which has not impressed me in recent years, and I'm skeptical about A Realm Reborn. These are my opinions as a paying customer and I hold no ill will towards people who are enjoying the game.
#40 Jun 20 2013 at 7:34 AM Rating: Default
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Killua125 wrote:
LebargeX wrote:
You are not a snowflake.

The reason everything you post is auto-defaulted and (i'm guessing) not a small percentage of the population here have you on ignore is because of things like what you just posted.

You just stated that you're not rude, then went on to bash everyone else in the forum who doesn't have the same opinion as you.

Grow up.


I didn't bash everyone in the forum.

You're reading my posts and misinterpreting them as being aggressive or rude, and that's not my fault. That's your fault for jumping to conclusions.

I'm tough on Square Enix, a company which has not impressed me in recent years, and I'm skeptical about A Realm Reborn. These are my opinions as a paying customer and I hold no ill will towards people who are enjoying the game.


I'm reading what you wrote. I'm posting my opinion of it.
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#41 Jun 20 2013 at 7:36 AM Rating: Good
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Killua...seriously? Skeptical? You are at full out attack against ARR. You sh@t on everyone's enjoyment by saying again and again that everything in the game is crap. Oh and in the end you add something like....the music is nice but then... and so on.

Not only that you make threads that you want us to believe are for an entire other reason but in truth its again another way for you to bash the game and SE (see F2P P2P threads)

So while i do not rate you down cause i don't like that aspect as well that doesn't mean i like how you post. When you make a valid point i agree and correct myself (see the xbox thread) but please you are everything but skeptical for ARR.
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#42 Jun 20 2013 at 7:41 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
People are going to rate him down on principle rather than evaluating what he's said, and frankly he's bought and paid for that over and over again. If I could change it I would but frankly when you post like he does you're begging for rate downs here.


Could someone explain this to me? I've seen Killua posting a lot. I've never seen him be rude to someone. A voice of dissent, surely, but usually only with a baffled response to the ratedowns and vitriol that follow some valid criticisms. To me it seems to be:

Killua: Lots of criticism.
Others: Stop criticizing the game. And you're wrong because X.
Killua: Just my opinion. And what about Y?
Others: Ratecamp.

In fact, unless I've just missed some blow-ups, Killua seems to have an almost saint-like patience for all the crap people heap on him.

I really don't give a **** about karma in general, but this particular case seems to stick in my craw as an example of pointless and juvenile antagonism. You guys are actually compelling me to rate him up, which I should NEVER have to do.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#43 Jun 20 2013 at 7:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thats the thing kachi people disagree with you they rate you down as it happened with my previous post. Someone didn't like what i wrote for killua he rated me down big deal.
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#44 Jun 20 2013 at 7:48 AM Rating: Decent
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LebargeX wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
I have an opinion on the karma system. I think it's horrible. I'm going to guess that it does turn a lot of potential members off.

Wint can pretend it's not true but the sub-default/hidden posts usually occur when a user posts an unpopular opinion. I never post things in a rude or aggressive way. I just post my opinions, but those are usually sub-defaulted because I don't agree with the hive mind in most cases.

So, people with unique opinions will get turned off. 'Why would I post here if my posts are just going to get hidden? I would rather post somewhere where I won't get censored for speaking my mind.'

I never said I hated Final Fantasy XIV, but I definitely have some beef with certain aspects of it. I've said that I love the user interface and the music, for example. Even mixed views are not allowed here though.

Edited, Jun 20th 2013 9:24am by Killua125


You are not a snowflake.

The reason everything you post is auto-defaulted and (i'm guessing) not a small percentage of the population here have you on ignore is because of things like what you just posted.

You just stated that you're not rude, then went on to bash everyone else in the forum who doesn't have the same opinion as you.

Grow up.



Teravibe wrote:
Killua...seriously? Skeptical? You are at full out attack against ARR. You sh@t on everyone's enjoyment by saying again and again that everything in the game is crap. Oh and in the end you add something like....the music is nice but then... and so on.

Not only that you make threads that you want us to believe are for an entire other reason but in truth its again another way for you to bash the game and SE (see F2P P2P threads)

So while i do not rate you down cause i don't like that aspect as well that doesn't mean i like how you post. When you make a valid point i agree and correct myself (see the xbox thread) but please you are everything but skeptical for ARR.


Killua: Makes another criticism.
Others: You are not a snowflake/grow up.
Others: You shat on everyone's enjoyment. Secret troll, etc.

Seriously, you guys really just can't ignore his opinions if you disagree? You're in total white knight mode and don't even realize it.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#45 Jun 20 2013 at 7:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
You're in total white knight mode and don't even realize it.
Oh the irony.
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#46 Jun 20 2013 at 7:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Teravibe wrote:
Killua...seriously? Skeptical? You are at full out attack against ARR. You sh@t on everyone's enjoyment by saying again and again that everything in the game is crap. Oh and in the end you add something like....the music is nice but then... and so on.

Not only that you make threads that you want us to believe are for an entire other reason but in truth its again another way for you to bash the game and SE (see F2P P2P threads)

So while i do not rate you down cause i don't like that aspect as well that doesn't mean i like how you post. When you make a valid point i agree and correct myself (see the xbox thread) but please you are everything but skeptical for ARR.


I still would consider myself in 'skeptical' territory, because I still care enough to browse information about the game and post on forums.

I was looking forward to this beta test and I admit that I was disappointed. I like some aspects of the game, but I was stunned that the combat was not changed whatsoever (on the player's side) after the massive amount of feedback they have received.

I really don't like the way TP works, and how little TP matters, and I don't like how the bulk of the combat just revolves around slight pauses in button mashes as you wait for the GCD to end.

I realized that if the combat is this way now, with the release date planned for August, it's probably going to remain more or less the same. So, that resulted in a very "upset" post following the opening of phase 3, which didn't really include the things I do like.

I have a friend who is playing on the PS3 version. He's not even much of a Final Fantasy fan, but he likes the game. I am not saying that it's impossible for people to not like this game... but people seem to think that's what I'm saying. I'm just one person, so you don't have to care so much that one guy doesn't like the game.


Edited, Jun 20th 2013 9:51am by Killua125
#47 Jun 20 2013 at 7:52 AM Rating: Good
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Teravibe wrote:
Thats the thing kachi people disagree with you they rate you down as it happened with my previous post. Someone didn't like what i wrote for killua he rated me down big deal.


Yeah, I rated you down for the following reason: I'm fine with reading criticisms of the game because this is a forum for the game. I'm absolutely sick of reading criticisms of Killua. He's totally harmless and I'm tired of the white blood cells here are having an allergic reaction to him.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#48 Jun 20 2013 at 7:54 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Kachi wrote:
You're in total white knight mode and don't even realize it.
Oh the irony.


Obviously I realize that I'm defending Killua. Do you need a refresher course on what white knighting is?
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#49 Jun 20 2013 at 7:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
LebargeX wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
I have an opinion on the karma system. I think it's horrible. I'm going to guess that it does turn a lot of potential members off.

Wint can pretend it's not true but the sub-default/hidden posts usually occur when a user posts an unpopular opinion. I never post things in a rude or aggressive way. I just post my opinions, but those are usually sub-defaulted because I don't agree with the hive mind in most cases.

So, people with unique opinions will get turned off. 'Why would I post here if my posts are just going to get hidden? I would rather post somewhere where I won't get censored for speaking my mind.'

I never said I hated Final Fantasy XIV, but I definitely have some beef with certain aspects of it. I've said that I love the user interface and the music, for example. Even mixed views are not allowed here though.

Edited, Jun 20th 2013 9:24am by Killua125


You are not a snowflake.

The reason everything you post is auto-defaulted and (i'm guessing) not a small percentage of the population here have you on ignore is because of things like what you just posted.

You just stated that you're not rude, then went on to bash everyone else in the forum who doesn't have the same opinion as you.

Grow up.



Teravibe wrote:
Killua...seriously? Skeptical? You are at full out attack against ARR. You sh@t on everyone's enjoyment by saying again and again that everything in the game is crap. Oh and in the end you add something like....the music is nice but then... and so on.

Not only that you make threads that you want us to believe are for an entire other reason but in truth its again another way for you to bash the game and SE (see F2P P2P threads)

So while i do not rate you down cause i don't like that aspect as well that doesn't mean i like how you post. When you make a valid point i agree and correct myself (see the xbox thread) but please you are everything but skeptical for ARR.


Killua: Makes another criticism.
Others: You are not a snowflake/grow up.
Others: You shat on everyone's enjoyment. Secret troll, etc.

Seriously, you guys really just can't ignore his opinions if you disagree? You're in total white knight mode and don't even realize it.


I didn't make any mention of his opinion of the game. He can dislike it all he wants. I made mention of his inability to open his mouth without coming off as a jerk.

Hive mind? Rude. Suggesting that his opinion is superior because it's different and that people in the opposing opinion have that opinion because they're just mindlessly nodding along. Rude. Which you have a habit of doing too...

He has nothing of value to add to the argument. "I don't like it cause it's not what I want." Still no suggestions about what he would like to have happen to make it better. Which sounds like many of your posts too...

The best post we've had in weeks has been from Ostia....what's the world coming to? LMAO
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#50 Jun 20 2013 at 7:58 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Do you need a refresher course on what white knighting is?
Probably, I'm nowhere near as good as you at it. Smiley: frown
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#51 Jun 20 2013 at 7:59 AM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
LebargeX wrote:
You are not a snowflake.

The reason everything you post is auto-defaulted and (i'm guessing) not a small percentage of the population here have you on ignore is because of things like what you just posted.

You just stated that you're not rude, then went on to bash everyone else in the forum who doesn't have the same opinion as you.

Grow up.


I didn't bash everyone in the forum.

You're reading my posts and misinterpreting them as being aggressive or rude, and that's not my fault. That's your fault for jumping to conclusions.

I'm tough on Square Enix, a company which has not impressed me in recent years, and I'm skeptical about A Realm Reborn. These are my opinions as a paying customer and I hold no ill will towards people who are enjoying the game.


You established an unfavorable opinion of yourself when you posted all these hypothetical doom and gloom threads months ago just to incite a response. We gave our opinions (you've even called me an "@#%^" for stating mine) or flat out ignored them, which frustrated a lot of the community. More so, a lot of us were under the NDA so we couldn't call you out on how wrong you really were.

Given that you've still not acknowledged this and continue to think you're innocent here. No, that's not the case.


Edited, Jun 20th 2013 7:02am by UltKnightGrover
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