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#1 Jun 21 2013 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
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I'm feeling brave so here's a thread about death penalty!

What do you think about the level of punishment inflicted on you for dying in XIV as opposed to XI? Personally I tend to think that monetary loss and spacial displacement is not enough to make me fear death and therefore hinders immersion. On the other hand, I have never experienced a delevel to 74 and am probably just looking at the past with rose tinted glasses.

Do you think that one should fear death to strengthen immersion and attachment to your character, or is this a thing of the past? Would you play on a server where the rules are different if you had a choice?

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#2 Jun 21 2013 at 10:54 AM Rating: Good
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Im with you, i would play a sever like that! Or maybe have an option where you lose more, the bigger the risk the bigger the fun!
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#3 Jun 21 2013 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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Absolutely fine how it is. FFXI's death penalty discouraged exploration and experimentation and resulted in endless frustration. That crap is a relic of the past, let it stay that way. There is no need to create separate servers with special rules, not worth the effort.

It had been bubbling for a while for me, but the straw that broke the camel's back for me in FFXI was when my BST went from 23 to 21 in one night after like 6 hours of playing. I never touched FFXI since then.
#4 Jun 21 2013 at 10:57 AM Rating: Default
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Arjuncorpse wrote:
It had been bubbling for a while for me, but the straw that broke the camel's back for me in FFXI was when my BST went from 23 to 21 in one night after like 6 hours of playing.
Don't blame the game for your immense ineptitude.
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#5 Jun 21 2013 at 11:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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If a game isn't designed towards some sort of permadeath (Diablo hardcore, Minecraft in a way) then it's hard to build a death pentalty system that doesn't end up punishing the player for playing the game. I'm fine with having small monetary hits (like gear repair in WoW) as that is more a money sink and less a punishment. I think that the only real meaningful death penalty is time. De-leveling someone is, IMO, cruel and unusual, whereas making someone run back to their corpse is something that doesn't cost the player much more than time and effort.

So on one hand I think FF11 (and IIRC FF14 now) has a good system where death in the open world is meaningful as you could have a long run back to where you were. On the other hand FF11's XP hit was far too much and I hope to never see such a system again.

But yes, there should always be a fear of death in an MMO, otherwise you encourage zerg tactics (like old Everquest world bosses) instead of collaboration and strategy. Either way the player should always know *why* they died, and it should always be the player's fault. Then you have a meaningful death penalty that encourages gameplay, learning, and fun.
#6 Jun 21 2013 at 11:03 AM Rating: Decent
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The DP in FFXI was the one major problem I had with it. I'm glad they got rid of it in FFXIV because when my WM leveled down multiple times in the Dunes because of people being incompetent when it comes to pulling... Yeah, hated that. And it only got worse the higher I got, then again it could have just been my server.
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#7 Jun 21 2013 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Arjuncorpse wrote:
Absolutely fine how it is. FFXI's death penalty discouraged exploration and experimentation and resulted in endless frustration. That crap is a relic of the past, let it stay that way. There is no need to create separate servers with special rules, not worth the effort.

It had been bubbling for a while for me, but the straw that broke the camel's back for me in FFXI was when my BST went from 23 to 21 in one night after like 6 hours of playing. I never touched FFXI since then.


The death penalty was definitely the bane to BSTs everywhere. I swear every time I would get close to leveling, my character's accuracy would plummet. Nothing was worse than missing five or six attacks in a row then dying–especially when you only needed one attack to kill it. Anyway, I agree with staying away from exp loss. As princessary said, a lot of times your death was caused by the incompetence of others.
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#8 Jun 21 2013 at 11:11 AM Rating: Good
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Delevel was my single biggest complaint in ffxi, especially when it happened because of someone else's actions instead of my own! I would much rather take a financial penalty than an XP penalty.
#9 Jun 21 2013 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Arjuncorpse wrote:
It had been bubbling for a while for me, but the straw that broke the camel's back for me in FFXI was when my BST went from 23 to 21 in one night after like 6 hours of playing.
Don't blame the game for your immense ineptitude.


I didn't. That's why I quit, didn't ask the game to change itself. Moved on to games that are more friendly to my immense ineptitude.
#10 Jun 21 2013 at 11:20 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Arjuncorpse wrote:
It had been bubbling for a while for me, but the straw that broke the camel's back for me in FFXI was when my BST went from 23 to 21 in one night after like 6 hours of playing.
Don't blame the game for your immense ineptitude.


Did BST even have Release at 23?

I know you're trying to be edgy and all "haha u suk" but many many people delevelled a lot playing BST, especially in the early levels where they didnt have many tools available to them.

Now for your smartass retort to try and maintain your edgy online persona... lets just get it over with, you want to anyway..
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#11 Jun 21 2013 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good
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I think FF11's death penalty was extreme, at least the way it worked back when i played.

For certain jobs sure, it didn't matter because you could easily join a merit party to get back all your lost exp.

However, this also discouraged people from trying new things lest they die and lose 1/10th of their progress (such as soloing). This was also a problem for jobs which never got invited to parties and had to find the next best thing to get their exp back (as a SMN, i had to do campaign if ever i died. Since i know how boring AND time consuming it was to recover lost exp this way i have the utmost respect for BLM since doing pudding must have been equally boring or even more so).

In my opinion there is no reason that the death penalty needs to be so extreme that i get ****** off that i died. Sure death should carry a weight i suppose, but having to walk all the way back to where you were and some money loss seems perfectly fine to me. I want to have some fun when i'm out adventuring instead of setting myself back 10 times because no one will help me get through the tough area and i end up having to solo or whatever.

There is also the weakness aspect to the death penalty as well (thats still in the game right?). You have to wait a few minutes until your ready to fight again, so being raised doesn't instantly put you back into the fight. If people continue to die then you will lose the fight regardless if you got raised. And speaking of being raised, nothing in 11 was more infuriating than getting raised a million times because of a bad dynamis pull, or a random AoE killing you while weak causing you to lose A LOT of exp.

As long as my exp isn't being touched, at all, I will be happy with whatever they do with the death penalty as long as it doesn't discourage people from trying to do things.
#12 Jun 21 2013 at 11:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Pretty much what im getting from this thread is that Beastmaster is the best!!
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#13 Jun 21 2013 at 11:26 AM Rating: Decent
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reptiletim wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Arjuncorpse wrote:
It had been bubbling for a while for me, but the straw that broke the camel's back for me in FFXI was when my BST went from 23 to 21 in one night after like 6 hours of playing.
Don't blame the game for your immense ineptitude.


Did BST even have Release at 23?


I'm pretty sure BST learned Leave at 35ish. Then again, it's been more than a few years since I last played.
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#14 Jun 21 2013 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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Believe me, when you make your first run into something that doesn't allow class changes, and forget to repair your gear, and force your entire group to fail because as a tank you take WAY too much damage, and deal no dmg so you can't hold hate... You will suddenly feel that the punishment is just painful on every level.

I made that mistake just once shortly after they implemented the block to job changes. I can't say of the block made it beyond hamlet def, I didn't do many raids afterwards, but I know at least CC relied on a strat that included Job changes.

But yeah, while repairs are mildly painful, gear breaks DURING a boss fight (especially a weapon) makes the difference between a win and a loss, and lets face it NOBODY wants to be that person!

I think the humiliation is a much more painful penalty than any (reasonable) amount of exp loss.

As well, I have been in pts even in 1.0 where people would either repair gear, or boot people if their gear wasn't repaired before going in. It was VERY rare that someone refused to repair their gear, but it was ussually arrogant blm/thm who thought their gear didn't matter since they didn't do any melee dmg, and wouldn't be hit (but apparently didn't realize that all gear stats drop)

Edited, Jun 21st 2013 12:29pm by rfolkker
#15 Jun 21 2013 at 11:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah FFXI, at least to me, became a game of sit in Jeuno for hours except when you get a party. And even when you do, run along a specific path to the camp you are targeting. I remember wanting to explore all these new zones I was going to but I barely did anywhere simply cause I didn't want to die and lose exp.
#16 Jun 21 2013 at 11:31 AM Rating: Good
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I agree it restricted exploration in XI. However, I can't help but compare the thrill of getting to Jeuno for the first time by navigating through the forest, avoiding the tigers and giant trees, heart pounding to the boring corpse run of getting to Stormwind from Darnassus. Two completely different things, I know. But the adrenaline rush made exploration more fun for me, and more rewarding when I had just avoided certain death.
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#17 Jun 21 2013 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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FFXI was a really great game that was plagued by a few really bad game design choices the development team made. I think its ok to call FFXI good in spite of these flaws.

With that said, I think its ok to discuss the fact that the death penalty in FFXI was too extreme and should never be repeated. It encouraged a kind of terrible community of elitists with attitudes similar to what we see from lolgaxe. While there will always be these kinds of people in online communities, the penalty specifically catered to the min/max/no fun allowed crowd that is cancer to a game's community as a whole.

I hope producers in the future see terrible mechanics and the damage they cause to the brand and never repeat them.
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#18 Jun 21 2013 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
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Even in XI they dropped the exp penalty for anyone below level 30. You're still weakened for 5 minutes after raise, unless you know a rich WHM who has Arise.

At 99 due to Abyssea death really didn't mean anything since exp flowed like water. Then with Delve in the latest expansion, where the preferred method of killing for a while was to drag it to the frontier bivouac and just keep dying, HPing, and respawning, we had people deleveling to 98 for the first time... ever. It was pretty hilarious.
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#19 Jun 21 2013 at 11:55 AM Rating: Excellent
PhoenixOmbre wrote:
I agree it restricted exploration in XI. However, I can't help but compare the thrill of getting to Jeuno for the first time by navigating through the forest, avoiding the tigers and giant trees, heart pounding to the boring corpse run of getting to Stormwind from Darnassus. Two completely different things, I know. But the adrenaline rush made exploration more fun for me, and more rewarding when I had just avoided certain death.


I agree with this part to. It just made exploration a tad more exciting and kept you on your toes. I got a sense of ingame pride knowing how to maneuver and dodge agro in places people didn't usually go. And in turn it gave me a sense of community helping other folks up to these places.

FFXIV isn't bad at all though. I am still enjoying my death runs to the higher lvl areas.
#20 Jun 21 2013 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
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Pretty much what im getting from this thread is that Beastmaster is the best!!


Smiley: grin
#21 Jun 21 2013 at 12:13 PM Rating: Good
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PhoenixOmbre wrote:
I agree it restricted exploration in XI. However, I can't help but compare the thrill of getting to Jeuno for the first time by navigating through the forest, avoiding the tigers and giant trees, heart pounding to the boring corpse run of getting to Stormwind from Darnassus. Two completely different things, I know. But the adrenaline rush made exploration more fun for me, and more rewarding when I had just avoided certain death.


I agree. I remember my first trip to Jeuno was like this. I was so excited when zoning into Jeuno and hearing that "victory" song (I loved Jeuno's music).

Personally, I think EXP loss wasn't that bad (I believe this made players more carefull in their strategies and coordination). However, I do think leveling down sucked, specially if you had reached the level in which you could start using certain gear/weapon/skill.

Perhaps it should be done according to the task. For instance, some places/instances/missions could have EXP loss while regular gameplay could have money/time punishment for dying. Dunno, maybe I just miss the adrenaline hehehe.
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#22 Jun 21 2013 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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The penalty in 1.0 was a pain in the *** too though... Not sure if anyone remembers running around with all broken gear because of how quickly it broke and how annoying it was to get it repaired...
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#23 Jun 21 2013 at 12:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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I definitely do support higher death penalties, and it made things more tense in XI - but I never liked leveling down, to be honest. Just bringing you down to 0% EXP would be enough.
#24 Jun 21 2013 at 12:31 PM Rating: Good
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Deleveling was just a time sink that just hurt solo players in a group game. The modern xp gains would mean you loose a massive amount"10 or more fights" to count as a penalty. The fond memories of those FF11 deaths has replaced the calculations you did of how many good fights it take to level back up. Beastmaster was always a step away from death, if you wasn't prepared.Smiley: smile
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#25 Jun 21 2013 at 12:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
The penalty in 1.0 was a pain in the *** too though... Not sure if anyone remembers running around with all broken gear because of how quickly it broke and how annoying it was to get it repaired...


Agreed. Having to ask a random stanger / NPC to repair my underwear (while it's still on) is a bit too harsh a penalty.

Smiley: laugh

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#26 Jun 21 2013 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
I definitely do support higher death penalties, and it made things more tense in XI - but I never liked leveling down, to be honest. Just bringing you down to 0% EXP would be enough.



I can get behind that idea!
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#27 Jun 21 2013 at 1:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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PhoenixOmbre wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
The penalty in 1.0 was a pain in the *** too though... Not sure if anyone remembers running around with all broken gear because of how quickly it broke and how annoying it was to get it repaired...


Agreed. Having to ask a random stanger / NPC to repair my underwear (while it's still on) is a bit too harsh a penalty.

Smiley: laugh



I remember this! Oh man, who thought that was a good idea? Its a very creative though. Pointless, but creative.

Edited, Jun 21st 2013 4:02pm by reptiletim
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#28 Jun 21 2013 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
I definitely do support higher death penalties, and it made things more tense in XI - but I never liked leveling down, to be honest. Just bringing you down to 0% EXP would be enough.


The only problem with this method is that there's no penalty for someone who has a maxed level.
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#29 Jun 21 2013 at 3:45 PM Rating: Good
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In general, I hate death penalties. Especially when devs go out of their way to give mobs incredibly cheesy moves. Ultimately, I figure if an encounter is meant to not have you and members of your party die, you instead restrict resurrections to out of combat and in the event you can just respawn within the instance, you keep the arena locked until the boss is dead or the rest of your party wiped to eliminate zombie tactics. In general, losing EXP teaches nothing, it just forces you to grind fodder again. Cash loss, either direct or via repairs, makes life harder for tanks. I don't think anyone implicitly wants to use being a lemming as a battle tactic, and short of very few instances in XI, it was never mainstream.

Insert ******** over Atma of the Apocalypse in Abyssea here...

Edited, Jun 21st 2013 5:46pm by Seriha
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#30 Jun 21 2013 at 4:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
Especially when devs go out of their way to give mobs incredibly cheesy moves.


And that's the core of my problem with death in FFXI: too often, on a lot of monsters/bosses, it's simply out of your control and at the mercy of the RNG gods. Death, Deathga, Doom, Doomga, -enDeath, -enDoom, Chainspell Death, Charm, 30-60 seconds terror, etc. The game just became a massive "FU" when it came to TP moves and even though they "Promised" to tone it down when Adoulin came out just look at the monsters they put out and realize it was a damned lie.

****, just look at the Salvaga II Hydra "Trembling sometimes deals severe damage with no warning (1700+)". That's a killer on over half of the jobs in the game and there's NOTHING you can do about it. Throat Stab moves are bullsh*t in and of themselves but with those you have warning and a good healer can take care of you. A move that randomly says "NOPE ONE SHOT!"? No thanks, I'll pass.

You pulled too many monsters and couldn't survive? That's your fault. No one argues that fact and you accept that death because you yourself caused it. Went into a fight without Protect and Shell and didn't bother to wait to be buffed? That's on you, you know it, and you eat the death.

The RNG rolled dice when you're a full health and said "YOU DIE, TRY AGAIN NEXT TIME" and you wonder why people quit? Ultima countered two of your attacks and you die instantly because you're a dual-wielding class and each hit just relfected almost 1400 damage? That's the game saying "Go play something else because my developers don't care about your enjoyment!" and you leave because if the game can't play fair, why should you bother paying them? That's how a lot of people felt and it's justified in a lot of FFXI.


Edited, Jun 21st 2013 6:40pm by Viertel
#31 Jun 21 2013 at 4:53 PM Rating: Decent
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***** death penalty in the rear. Death doesn't make me fear anything if isn't perma death. We humans are more motivated by the fear of loss than pleasure. But if death just sets you back a smidge and is recoverable, that is not true fear of loss.

Going to extremes is a sure way to make people quit a game though.

Want to know how to really scare people without making them grind what was lost back?
1.You die once, death acts just like it is now.
2.Die shortly after before weakness wears and you get double weakened.
3.SE implements a feature that locks you out of that raid for 2-4 weeks.

I guarantee you with penalty number three. Anyone who is really serious about getting their prized loot or progress soon. Will not even attempt that 3rd death. If they get it inadvertantly. Whatever hardware they are playing on will feel the wrath.

That's scary!

Edit: Just so I am not seeming like a death hater. How about this?
1.Allow experience points to be lost at death.
2.You can only down level one level from whatever your cap was.
3.You cannot re-level back to the original for 1 Eorzean week.

That would kind of make me scared to die I suppose.

Edited, Jun 21st 2013 7:05pm by sandpark
#32 Jun 21 2013 at 5:56 PM Rating: Decent
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PhoenixOmbre wrote:
I'm feeling brave so here's a thread about death penalty!

What do you think about the level of punishment inflicted on you for dying in XIV as opposed to XI? Personally I tend to think that monetary loss and spacial displacement is not enough to make me fear death and therefore hinders immersion. On the other hand, I have never experienced a delevel to 74 and am probably just looking at the past with rose tinted glasses.

Do you think that one should fear death to strengthen immersion and attachment to your character, or is this a thing of the past? Would you play on a server where the rules are different if you had a choice?



+1 for fear death, lose XP.
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#33 Jun 21 2013 at 6:28 PM Rating: Decent
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sandpark wrote:
1.You die once, death acts just like it is now.
2.Die shortly after before weakness wears and you get double weakened.


I think that could work well. When weakness wears off, characters could receive another status that doesn't actually harm the character. Instead, if you die with the status up, your character experiences a worse, longer lasting form of weakness. This way, death isn't that big of a deal solo or in small parties. In raids, however, death could punish you by making you completely useless. Having some sort of time limit on certain battles could really make that penalty hurt.
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#34 Jun 21 2013 at 6:53 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm with Sandpark. I've never been "scared" of a death penalty. Death penalties are all about the best way to inconvenience the player, the best way to make the game less fun at some point if you ***** up. Not to say it shouldn't be there, but let's call it what it is.

Is there a way to penalize the gamer for deaths without making it annoyingly tedious where fun is actively being drained from the game? I pretty much agree with Sandpark again, I like his suggestions. They work towards making the game harder or more challenging for a certain period of time. This is much better than something that simply adds to grind. If you do add to grind (such a delevel), give the grind a cap (a limit as he suggested).

It is an MMO, whether you die or not you will be performing the same actions over and over again. Adding challenge is a different twist than simply adding some more "and again" to the "again and again" repetitive actions we will already be doing.

Edited, Jun 21st 2013 9:03pm by decoyninja
#35 Jun 21 2013 at 10:03 PM Rating: Good
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One thing I didn't touch on, but also why I don't touch Hardcore modes in things like Diablo: Lag.

It's just as Velveeta as the cheesiest mob TP moves in XI. You can't predict it. You can't fight it. Latency spike, power outage, whatever... being screwed for reasons beyond player control just isn't cool. In the end, for every person I see demanding harsh death penalties, they're typically unwilling to punish themselves in some manner were the penalties absent. Why? Well, odds are they hate others having an advantage. Want to lose 10% gold? Buy a bunch of vendor mats and chuck them. Want to lose 10% EXP? Go AFK for however long it takes you to gain 10%. Want gear destruction? Roll some dice and throw away what corresponds to a slot.

While it's a bit of a no-brainer that not everyone likes the same things, I find it absolutely foolhardy that people imply fear a greater motivator than pleasure in their entertainment (that they pay for). This isn't real life, it's just final fantasy.
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#36 Jun 21 2013 at 10:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
One thing I didn't touch on, but also why I don't touch Hardcore modes in things like Diablo: Lag.

It's just as Velveeta as the cheesiest mob TP moves in XI. You can't predict it. You can't fight it. Latency spike, power outage, whatever... being screwed for reasons beyond player control just isn't cool. In the end, for every person I see demanding harsh death penalties, they're typically unwilling to punish themselves in some manner were the penalties absent. Why? Well, odds are they hate others having an advantage. Want to lose 10% gold? Buy a bunch of vendor mats and chuck them. Want to lose 10% EXP? Go AFK for however long it takes you to gain 10%. Want gear destruction? Roll some dice and throw away what corresponds to a slot.

While it's a bit of a no-brainer that not everyone likes the same things, I find it absolutely foolhardy that people imply fear a greater motivator than pleasure in their entertainment (that they pay for). This isn't real life, it's just final fantasy.


I personally always play HC in Diablo and most other games where it exists. Sure it sucks when I die because of lag and I really wish there was something you could do to prevent that sort of thing, but in the end it is definitely worth it. I think Diablo is boring if I don't play HC. The thrill and excitement I get is just so much higher for every little thing I do that I know is even remotely dangerous. Now can I get the same type of thrill some other way? Yes I can, just like you suggested pleasure works the same way albeit for me generally less strongly, but if I can have both why wouldn't I want it?

I remember popping and soloing Despot for the first time, holy moly my adrenaline was pumping hard in the beginning and there are several other situations where fear was not the main factor for my enjoyment, but that does not mean it can't add to the experience. Now I understand if people don't want harsh penalties for dying I mean to each their own, but personally depending on the situation I can definitely see the point.

For XI I have to say thought that generally the things that made me fear death was not the exp penalty or weakened state, it was honstly just the fear that I would not be able to complete the content for different reasons. Traveling took such a long time that if you died and had to start over because there was no raise available you might not do it, either because of time constraints or because you couldn't get back there solo, but the party would not start over etc. The exp penalty was more of a nuisance to me, just like having to pay to repair my gear after dying doesn't make me fear death it just annoys me when I don't have enough money.

I dunno, I think there are different way of getting added excitement to the game by upping the stakes for death, but I am not sure I've seen the perfect one for the MMORPG genre as of yet (HC works great for Hack ´n Slash imo).
#37 Jun 22 2013 at 1:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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The death penalty never held me back in FFXI, but I started as a WHM, and even with Reraise III, I'd knock myself back down without hesitation to 74 from 75 capped if I had a Dynamis run + Vrtra/Jorm + a few rescues in areas with hyper-aggro mobs.

It hurt more on other jobs, but I've always taken loss in stride whenever it's been to a higher purpose.

Now after years of Eve Online... I've seen people lose tens upon tens of billions of ISK in single capital ship explosions/Freighter Ganks.

Unless you kick my door in and try to hold me up at gunpoint, there is nothing in a videogame that hurts more than a "awww, crap, lets go again!" anymore.
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