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#1 Jun 21 2013 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
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I'm feeling brave so here's a thread about death penalty!

What do you think about the level of punishment inflicted on you for dying in XIV as opposed to XI? Personally I tend to think that monetary loss and spacial displacement is not enough to make me fear death and therefore hinders immersion. On the other hand, I have never experienced a delevel to 74 and am probably just looking at the past with rose tinted glasses.

Do you think that one should fear death to strengthen immersion and attachment to your character, or is this a thing of the past? Would you play on a server where the rules are different if you had a choice?

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#2 Jun 21 2013 at 10:54 AM Rating: Good
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Im with you, i would play a sever like that! Or maybe have an option where you lose more, the bigger the risk the bigger the fun!
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#3 Jun 21 2013 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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Absolutely fine how it is. FFXI's death penalty discouraged exploration and experimentation and resulted in endless frustration. That crap is a relic of the past, let it stay that way. There is no need to create separate servers with special rules, not worth the effort.

It had been bubbling for a while for me, but the straw that broke the camel's back for me in FFXI was when my BST went from 23 to 21 in one night after like 6 hours of playing. I never touched FFXI since then.
#4 Jun 21 2013 at 10:57 AM Rating: Default
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Arjuncorpse wrote:
It had been bubbling for a while for me, but the straw that broke the camel's back for me in FFXI was when my BST went from 23 to 21 in one night after like 6 hours of playing.
Don't blame the game for your immense ineptitude.
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#5 Jun 21 2013 at 11:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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If a game isn't designed towards some sort of permadeath (Diablo hardcore, Minecraft in a way) then it's hard to build a death pentalty system that doesn't end up punishing the player for playing the game. I'm fine with having small monetary hits (like gear repair in WoW) as that is more a money sink and less a punishment. I think that the only real meaningful death penalty is time. De-leveling someone is, IMO, cruel and unusual, whereas making someone run back to their corpse is something that doesn't cost the player much more than time and effort.

So on one hand I think FF11 (and IIRC FF14 now) has a good system where death in the open world is meaningful as you could have a long run back to where you were. On the other hand FF11's XP hit was far too much and I hope to never see such a system again.

But yes, there should always be a fear of death in an MMO, otherwise you encourage zerg tactics (like old Everquest world bosses) instead of collaboration and strategy. Either way the player should always know *why* they died, and it should always be the player's fault. Then you have a meaningful death penalty that encourages gameplay, learning, and fun.
#6 Jun 21 2013 at 11:03 AM Rating: Decent
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The DP in FFXI was the one major problem I had with it. I'm glad they got rid of it in FFXIV because when my WM leveled down multiple times in the Dunes because of people being incompetent when it comes to pulling... Yeah, hated that. And it only got worse the higher I got, then again it could have just been my server.
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#7 Jun 21 2013 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Arjuncorpse wrote:
Absolutely fine how it is. FFXI's death penalty discouraged exploration and experimentation and resulted in endless frustration. That crap is a relic of the past, let it stay that way. There is no need to create separate servers with special rules, not worth the effort.

It had been bubbling for a while for me, but the straw that broke the camel's back for me in FFXI was when my BST went from 23 to 21 in one night after like 6 hours of playing. I never touched FFXI since then.


The death penalty was definitely the bane to BSTs everywhere. I swear every time I would get close to leveling, my character's accuracy would plummet. Nothing was worse than missing five or six attacks in a row then dying–especially when you only needed one attack to kill it. Anyway, I agree with staying away from exp loss. As princessary said, a lot of times your death was caused by the incompetence of others.
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#8 Jun 21 2013 at 11:11 AM Rating: Good
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Delevel was my single biggest complaint in ffxi, especially when it happened because of someone else's actions instead of my own! I would much rather take a financial penalty than an XP penalty.
#9 Jun 21 2013 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Arjuncorpse wrote:
It had been bubbling for a while for me, but the straw that broke the camel's back for me in FFXI was when my BST went from 23 to 21 in one night after like 6 hours of playing.
Don't blame the game for your immense ineptitude.


I didn't. That's why I quit, didn't ask the game to change itself. Moved on to games that are more friendly to my immense ineptitude.
#10 Jun 21 2013 at 11:20 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Arjuncorpse wrote:
It had been bubbling for a while for me, but the straw that broke the camel's back for me in FFXI was when my BST went from 23 to 21 in one night after like 6 hours of playing.
Don't blame the game for your immense ineptitude.


Did BST even have Release at 23?

I know you're trying to be edgy and all "haha u suk" but many many people delevelled a lot playing BST, especially in the early levels where they didnt have many tools available to them.

Now for your smartass retort to try and maintain your edgy online persona... lets just get it over with, you want to anyway..
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#11 Jun 21 2013 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good
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I think FF11's death penalty was extreme, at least the way it worked back when i played.

For certain jobs sure, it didn't matter because you could easily join a merit party to get back all your lost exp.

However, this also discouraged people from trying new things lest they die and lose 1/10th of their progress (such as soloing). This was also a problem for jobs which never got invited to parties and had to find the next best thing to get their exp back (as a SMN, i had to do campaign if ever i died. Since i know how boring AND time consuming it was to recover lost exp this way i have the utmost respect for BLM since doing pudding must have been equally boring or even more so).

In my opinion there is no reason that the death penalty needs to be so extreme that i get ****** off that i died. Sure death should carry a weight i suppose, but having to walk all the way back to where you were and some money loss seems perfectly fine to me. I want to have some fun when i'm out adventuring instead of setting myself back 10 times because no one will help me get through the tough area and i end up having to solo or whatever.

There is also the weakness aspect to the death penalty as well (thats still in the game right?). You have to wait a few minutes until your ready to fight again, so being raised doesn't instantly put you back into the fight. If people continue to die then you will lose the fight regardless if you got raised. And speaking of being raised, nothing in 11 was more infuriating than getting raised a million times because of a bad dynamis pull, or a random AoE killing you while weak causing you to lose A LOT of exp.

As long as my exp isn't being touched, at all, I will be happy with whatever they do with the death penalty as long as it doesn't discourage people from trying to do things.
#12 Jun 21 2013 at 11:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Pretty much what im getting from this thread is that Beastmaster is the best!!
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#13 Jun 21 2013 at 11:26 AM Rating: Decent
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reptiletim wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Arjuncorpse wrote:
It had been bubbling for a while for me, but the straw that broke the camel's back for me in FFXI was when my BST went from 23 to 21 in one night after like 6 hours of playing.
Don't blame the game for your immense ineptitude.


Did BST even have Release at 23?


I'm pretty sure BST learned Leave at 35ish. Then again, it's been more than a few years since I last played.
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#14 Jun 21 2013 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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Believe me, when you make your first run into something that doesn't allow class changes, and forget to repair your gear, and force your entire group to fail because as a tank you take WAY too much damage, and deal no dmg so you can't hold hate... You will suddenly feel that the punishment is just painful on every level.

I made that mistake just once shortly after they implemented the block to job changes. I can't say of the block made it beyond hamlet def, I didn't do many raids afterwards, but I know at least CC relied on a strat that included Job changes.

But yeah, while repairs are mildly painful, gear breaks DURING a boss fight (especially a weapon) makes the difference between a win and a loss, and lets face it NOBODY wants to be that person!

I think the humiliation is a much more painful penalty than any (reasonable) amount of exp loss.

As well, I have been in pts even in 1.0 where people would either repair gear, or boot people if their gear wasn't repaired before going in. It was VERY rare that someone refused to repair their gear, but it was ussually arrogant blm/thm who thought their gear didn't matter since they didn't do any melee dmg, and wouldn't be hit (but apparently didn't realize that all gear stats drop)

Edited, Jun 21st 2013 12:29pm by rfolkker
#15 Jun 21 2013 at 11:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah FFXI, at least to me, became a game of sit in Jeuno for hours except when you get a party. And even when you do, run along a specific path to the camp you are targeting. I remember wanting to explore all these new zones I was going to but I barely did anywhere simply cause I didn't want to die and lose exp.
#16 Jun 21 2013 at 11:31 AM Rating: Good
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I agree it restricted exploration in XI. However, I can't help but compare the thrill of getting to Jeuno for the first time by navigating through the forest, avoiding the tigers and giant trees, heart pounding to the boring corpse run of getting to Stormwind from Darnassus. Two completely different things, I know. But the adrenaline rush made exploration more fun for me, and more rewarding when I had just avoided certain death.
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#17 Jun 21 2013 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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FFXI was a really great game that was plagued by a few really bad game design choices the development team made. I think its ok to call FFXI good in spite of these flaws.

With that said, I think its ok to discuss the fact that the death penalty in FFXI was too extreme and should never be repeated. It encouraged a kind of terrible community of elitists with attitudes similar to what we see from lolgaxe. While there will always be these kinds of people in online communities, the penalty specifically catered to the min/max/no fun allowed crowd that is cancer to a game's community as a whole.

I hope producers in the future see terrible mechanics and the damage they cause to the brand and never repeat them.
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#18 Jun 21 2013 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
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Even in XI they dropped the exp penalty for anyone below level 30. You're still weakened for 5 minutes after raise, unless you know a rich WHM who has Arise.

At 99 due to Abyssea death really didn't mean anything since exp flowed like water. Then with Delve in the latest expansion, where the preferred method of killing for a while was to drag it to the frontier bivouac and just keep dying, HPing, and respawning, we had people deleveling to 98 for the first time... ever. It was pretty hilarious.
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#19 Jun 21 2013 at 11:55 AM Rating: Excellent
PhoenixOmbre wrote:
I agree it restricted exploration in XI. However, I can't help but compare the thrill of getting to Jeuno for the first time by navigating through the forest, avoiding the tigers and giant trees, heart pounding to the boring corpse run of getting to Stormwind from Darnassus. Two completely different things, I know. But the adrenaline rush made exploration more fun for me, and more rewarding when I had just avoided certain death.


I agree with this part to. It just made exploration a tad more exciting and kept you on your toes. I got a sense of ingame pride knowing how to maneuver and dodge agro in places people didn't usually go. And in turn it gave me a sense of community helping other folks up to these places.

FFXIV isn't bad at all though. I am still enjoying my death runs to the higher lvl areas.
#20 Jun 21 2013 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
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Pretty much what im getting from this thread is that Beastmaster is the best!!


Smiley: grin
#21 Jun 21 2013 at 12:13 PM Rating: Good
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PhoenixOmbre wrote:
I agree it restricted exploration in XI. However, I can't help but compare the thrill of getting to Jeuno for the first time by navigating through the forest, avoiding the tigers and giant trees, heart pounding to the boring corpse run of getting to Stormwind from Darnassus. Two completely different things, I know. But the adrenaline rush made exploration more fun for me, and more rewarding when I had just avoided certain death.


I agree. I remember my first trip to Jeuno was like this. I was so excited when zoning into Jeuno and hearing that "victory" song (I loved Jeuno's music).

Personally, I think EXP loss wasn't that bad (I believe this made players more carefull in their strategies and coordination). However, I do think leveling down sucked, specially if you had reached the level in which you could start using certain gear/weapon/skill.

Perhaps it should be done according to the task. For instance, some places/instances/missions could have EXP loss while regular gameplay could have money/time punishment for dying. Dunno, maybe I just miss the adrenaline hehehe.
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#22 Jun 21 2013 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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The penalty in 1.0 was a pain in the *** too though... Not sure if anyone remembers running around with all broken gear because of how quickly it broke and how annoying it was to get it repaired...
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#23 Jun 21 2013 at 12:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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I definitely do support higher death penalties, and it made things more tense in XI - but I never liked leveling down, to be honest. Just bringing you down to 0% EXP would be enough.
#24 Jun 21 2013 at 12:31 PM Rating: Good
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Deleveling was just a time sink that just hurt solo players in a group game. The modern xp gains would mean you loose a massive amount"10 or more fights" to count as a penalty. The fond memories of those FF11 deaths has replaced the calculations you did of how many good fights it take to level back up. Beastmaster was always a step away from death, if you wasn't prepared.Smiley: smile
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#25 Jun 21 2013 at 12:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
The penalty in 1.0 was a pain in the *** too though... Not sure if anyone remembers running around with all broken gear because of how quickly it broke and how annoying it was to get it repaired...


Agreed. Having to ask a random stanger / NPC to repair my underwear (while it's still on) is a bit too harsh a penalty.

Smiley: laugh

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#26 Jun 21 2013 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
I definitely do support higher death penalties, and it made things more tense in XI - but I never liked leveling down, to be honest. Just bringing you down to 0% EXP would be enough.



I can get behind that idea!
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