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Message from Yoshi-P on battle system adjustmentsFollow

#1 Jun 23 2013 at 8:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/53695-Future-Battle-System-Adjustments?p=777469#post777469

Still reading, but wanted to get this out there.
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#2 Jun 23 2013 at 8:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Holy crap the linked posts are long, this is going to take a few hours.
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#3 Jun 23 2013 at 8:51 AM Rating: Decent
He linked twice to the same thread.

Personally I love seeing this. It's obvious that they do put a lot of thought into their games. What is not always apparent is just how much. I am glad they are being far more transparent than they were with FFXI at its launch. Bodes very well for a good number of years.... before Tanaka is allowed to play with it again....
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#4 Jun 23 2013 at 8:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/53673-Design-Concepts-for-FINAL-FANTASY-XIV-A-Realm-Reborn

Have you seen this one too? It's sort of a response to the "Game is boring/easy" crowd.
#5 Jun 23 2013 at 8:54 AM Rating: Decent
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This is nice to see/read!

I can tell you on the PS3, during Fates or during moments when 5+ creatures or 3+ people were fighting on screen it became very hard to target anything or anyone. But that is why they have Beta phases.
#6 Jun 23 2013 at 9:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sephrick wrote:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/53673-Design-Concepts-for-FINAL-FANTASY-XIV-A-Realm-Reborn

Have you seen this one too? It's sort of a response to the "Game is boring/easy" crowd.


It's linked to in the one I posted.
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"Choosy MMO's choose Wint." - Louiscool
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist.
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#7 Jun 23 2013 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
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Could any of you post the Message here? I'm unable to login to the forum because of the region problem >_<
#8 Jun 23 2013 at 9:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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wcloudxkumo wrote:
Could any of you post the Message here? I'm unable to login to the forum because of the region problem >_<



**I think it's ok for me to do this, if not this a Admin please remove it! :D **

Quote:
roducer and director Naoki Yoshida here.

You've been providing us great feedback on all aspects of FFXIV: ARR, and I can't thank you all enough. With phase 3 well underway, we have testers coming from a wide range of backgrounds, whether they're unfamiliar with Version 1.0, coming in from another game, dropping in to test the FFXIV out, or simply new to MMOs as a whole.

With such a diverse group of testers here, I thought it would be best to speak with you all about the design of FFXIV and the direction the game will be heading. MMOs are fairly large games, and as you'd expect of a large game, this post will be fairly long, and perhaps a little complicated. Some of you may be thinking "Well as long as the game is fun, your plans are fine with me." If you not overly concerned with the way game is progressing, you're free to skim through this post if you'd like. If you have questions or concerns about core game designs, and are considering leaving feedback, pull up a comfy chair and perhaps grab a snack. Hopefully by the end of this post, your questions will be answered.

I know I said this just a moment ago, but this post is fairly long, and I could probably give a lecture based on its contents. For those of you planning to read this, prepare yourselves for the flood of text that's coming.

I'll begin by talking about the early stages of MMOs, followed by a look at them from a business standpoint, and finish with a few words on content design in FFXV: ARR.
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Yoshida: The Hardcore Gamer vs. Producer and Director

As an avid gamer myself, I'd like to start with a comparison of two viewpoints with respect to the start of MMOs—Yoshida the hardcore gamer, and Yoshida the producer and director.
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Yoshida the Hardcore Gamer

I've played online games for nearly 20 years now, and whenever there's a new release, you can be sure I'm going to try it. When I do, however, there's always that longing for a magic button that will instantly take me to the level cap.

No matter the MMO, there's a certain standard expected of every game. This includes the chat system, party system, and features such as guilds to foster the community. There are also standard UI elements making it easy to move from one game to another. Since there's little you need to remember changing over from one game to the next, one may think these games are designed to quickly get to the level cap and start playing through endgame content.

It goes without saying that the leveling system, skill system, and many other aspects of the game are important, but all of these things can be figured out at the level cap. As a result, players can feel frustrated with only one or two skills at the beginning of the game, wanting to quickly rush through everything and get to the cap.

For example, let's say until yesterday, there's a particular game I've devoted all of my time to. I'm max level, I have all the best gear—I'm a top ranked player on my server. When I log into the game people take notice, and there are few who haven't heard of me. If it's time for a large-scale raid, I take the lead gathering my guild mates, and we press on to victory. Nothing beats the thrill of life and death battles with raid bosses, lasting well through the night until my eyes are bloodshot the next day. With every relevant gaming site bookmarked, I'm always up to speed on and any and everything so that no one could ever doubt my skill.

But today I started a new game, and I have no experience or assets to speak of. The epic encounters I'm accustomed to are gone, and my only choices in combat are A > B or B > A. I don't see any demanding gameplay, and all there is to do is explore the large maps.
Thankfully I have a lot of general gaming experience, so I can make use of my time fairly efficiently. As I begin pouring my time into the game, I can only help but think "Why couldn't there be some faster way to reach level 50. If they won't let me speed to level 50, the least they could do is make the beginning of the game a little harder. Maybe then I could have a little more fun until cap. This game needs to pick up soon, or I'm out of here."

The important thing to remember here is that the people getting bored at the beginning are gamers who play and think like I do. These gamers have realized that combat is the the primary focus of the MMO experience.

Although this is a fairly extreme example, to all of you skilled players with long gaming histories, let me ask one question. When playing a new game for the first time, have you ever thought it was a bit dull or underwhelming in the beginning? With MMOs in particular, as players continue to move from game to game, they tend to get burned out easily. My hardcore MMO gamer friends are like this as well, saying they'll never waste so much time trying to get into a game ever again. The beginning of the game seems dull and uninteresting, but there's still that longing for something to ignite a passion for the game.

Another common phenomenon among MMO players is something I like to call "first love syndrome." A new game comes out and you play from beta through to the free trial, and although there are a lot of things you like, you always go back to your first MMO. You feel the updates were always so much better in your first MMO, focusing on the things you can no longer do in the other games you try. This is just how people are after playing a particular game for a long time, getting stuck in their old ways.

I'm sure anyone who's had to change schools because of their parents or change jobs because of company troubles can relate. Suddenly finding yourself in a new environment can be stressful, and there's always that desire to go back to the way things used to be. Even small details reminiscent of "the good old days" can be reassuring.

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Yoshida the Producer and Director

Looking at the game objectively as a developer for an MMO, the game looks completely different compared to my hardcore gaming alter ego. The first thing I often think of is the stress felt by first time MMO players and the high barrier of entry.

Looking at an MMO from the viewpoint of those who tend to avoid them, the following qualities define your typical MMO:
A game for hardcore players. (A game they can't relate to)
A game that requires a constant internet connection. (Stressful)
A game where you have to chat with people. (Stressful)
A game that requires partying to progress, forcing interaction with others. (Stressful)
A game that lacks a good story. (Low expectations)
A game with too many windows and interfaces. (Confusing)
A game with too many things to remember, making it unplayable. (Intimidating)
A game with too much terminology. (Difficult)
A game where you may be abruptly killed by another player. (Misconception)
A game that looks like too much trouble. (A vague sense of uneasiness)

The truth of the matter is, all of these points are often applicable to MMOs.

When speaking from a hardcore gamer's point of view, I mentioned there are many things that are simply to be expected in an MMO. For a person who's never played an MMO, however, these can sometimes be seen as insurmountable obstacles.
An online playing environment (more affordable in recent years)
Chat system
Battle system
Party gameplay
Real-time battle system
A basic interface allowing prolonged gameplay
A guild system such as linkshells and free companies
Crafting and gathering
Trading
Markets
Character development that doesn't require resetting

Although they may be seen as drawbacks, these are all necessary in an MMO. These are also what make MMOs so interesting.

Just as FFXI was there for gamers 11 years ago, we want FFXIV to introduce a new generation of gamers to MMOs. Considering the shortcomings of Version 1.0, we want the beginning of the game to be stress-free, giving players an incentive to give it a try. Although gaming veterans tend to focus on the battle system, one should also consider the following:
Exploring the expansive areas in the game
Potential new friends always running about as you explore
An environment that's constantly changing in real time
Conversation with NPCs revealing the world's lore
The thrill of a good fight
Trying on a newly obtained piece of gear
Leveling up and learning a new skill
Acquiring return and teleport to travel between areas
Progressing to an area you've never seen before

I believe playing an MMO should be about enjoying the world as a whole. My first MMO was Ultima Online, and I have to admit I wasn't the fastest learner starting out. The world was huge, everyone I met was from another country, and I didn't understand English. After carefully checking all the menus, I managed to get out into the field to fight a chicken...but I was barehanded. To make matters worse, I was PK’ed shortly after (lol). Despite all these frustrations, however, it was an incredible gaming experience. I never realized games like that existed before. The beginning of FFXIV: ARR has been designed to offer newcomers that same sense of wonderment.
Create a quality character to represent you, be it manly, cute, rugged, or ****.
Enjoy a beautiful, expensive world that's constantly changing.
Connect with other players from around the world.
Speak with NPCs and reveal the game's story.
Take your time as you use the map and explore.
Take on fearsome looking monsters and revel in your victories.
Enjoy the freedom of progressing through the story alone or with friends.
Discover something new each time you visit your favorite places.
Follow the story of a crystal, befitting a FINAL FANTASY title.
Start off as a fledgling adventurer and grow to be something greater.
Board an airship and set out on a great adventure.

As a FINAL FANTASY game, I feel these elements make for a solid beginning in an MMO. What's important is whether or not players feel comfortable in the world of Eorzea. Players should find the game easy to get into, but also fun and exciting.

If players don't find the game intuitive, they're not likely to make use of the UI, chat system, or the party system, let alone play through the main scenario quests. Even now we're conflicted over the best way to explain the game's systems and features. Videos may prove more helpful than text, but would prove to be costly when updating. Too much text and the game will push players around everywhere, so it has to be simple. The problems go on and on.

For a player new to MMOs, the individual systems that make up the game are small pieces of a beautiful all-encompassing world. Eventually, they may realize these small systems make up a much greater part of the game than they first thought. Nevertheless, players aren't thinking that far ahead at the beginning of the game. Above all else, players should feel the game offers a world they can enjoy.

For the first 15 levels, when players are still adjusting to online gameplay, there are no elements in the game that force you into playing in a party. This way, as players are still learning the ropes, there's no worry of strangers in a party yelling at them or trying to order them around while trying to play. However, this may not necessarily be the case for endgame.

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The Business Challenge of an MMO

With each passing year, it becomes increasingly difficult to release a large-scale MMO. The rush following Ultima Online and Everquest reached its peak with Blizzard's World of Warcraft. That's not to say WoW started off without criticism. When it first released, there were many complaints about the simplicity of quests, that there was a lack of adventure. There two factions were poorly balanced in PvP, and general impressions would lead one to believe the game was no fun. Looking at WoW now, it's almost unimaginable.

However, instead of giving up, Blizzard switched their plans to be more user/community-centric from their second year of operation on, and became dominant by increasing the new MMORPG users through supplementation of thick scenarios, quest lines, and end-game content. WoW didn’t become what it is today by acquiring all of the existing MMORPG players at the time, they became what they are today as the result of breaking into new territory and as a result of that secured all of the existing MMORPG players.

Instead of choosing sides, they persisted and made it attractive to both groups, and began expanding with a focus on Blizzard fans. While the scale is slightly different, FFXI was more than likely in the same boat 11 years ago. Blizzard has been quoted saying that “MMORPGs are a service industry.” This was a tremendous shock to Blizzard fans at that time when Blizzard who possesses such great confidence in their game design said this.

Moving forward to 2013, their user numbers are continuing to fall; however, World of Warcraft reigning as the absolute king of the MMORPG industry has not changed. We arrived to where we are currently with the MMORPG rush during 2007 as well as the additional large scale rush of last year.

There are 3 main difficulties for launching an MMO.
Content volume
High-quality user interface
New and unique elements

To overcome these 3 difficulties and launch a game is by no means an easy matter. Amongst the large number of MMORPGs that are trying to launch, there are many cases where their content volume is compared to other MMORPGs who have been running for a long time, and end up suffering immensely. Additionally, the impressions of the beginning of the game between the gamer and the new MMORPG player that I mentioned before are as different as night and day. With this, it’s uniqueness that largely increases the difficulty.
I want to target MMORPG gamers as much as possible
I want to acquire as many new players as possible

Recent MMORPGs are beginning to shift to a more action based game; however, I personally feel that this is one element that acts as a reverse effect for MMORPGs that are striving to operate for a long time with a subscription-based model (This is separate from cases where you are shortening the lifecycle for a single MMORPG user. In that case it is correct.). As I mentioned previously, the road blocks on the way to getting used to an MMORPG are too high and adding action elements into the mix, while definitely exciting, makes it extremely difficult for the common player to repeat these battles everyday for hundreds of hours.

Furthermore, it becomes difficult to churn out battle content from a balance perspective, and as a result content volume is affected. Due to this, a more fitting business model would be the free-to-play model which allows for retention of the game through low estimations of total play time, a higher churn rate of new players, and the average spending per customer (also known as microtransactions).

As a numbered title in the FINAL FANTASY series, we are striving to make FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn a game that operates steadily for a long time, and one where we provide a steady flow of updates and content to you all. With that said, when we made the decision to build A Realm Reborn from the ground up while working on updates for 1.0, the first thing we decided was to eliminate action elements as best as possible.

With the advent of stronger internet connections, recent MMORPGs have come to be able to have defensive and evasive skills similar to offline stand alone games. Despite this, I feel that this does not fit with our customers who play FINAL FANTASY online, and I would like to have everyone play this game steadily for as long of a time as possible, which is why we’ve eliminated action elements to the best of our ability.

With these goals in mind we have built the content and the battle system.
Visually noticeable AoE attacks that you can avoid by moving
A system where you can boost damage by attacking from certain positions
Freedom to put things together by executing skills that follow a specific route
Being able to fixate on dealing the most damage while giving consideration to TP/MP costs in the end-game.
Jump not being essential for clearing content

While it might be thought of as simplistic, the end-game after reaching the level cap is where a good deal of player skill differences will start to appear, especially when adding equipment into the mix. We started designing this game by making the first goal of FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn having everyone enjoy this aspect.

This is the reason why there are no action elements in FFXIV content and battle. While I’m repeating myself, just like FFXI was trying to show FINAL FANTASY users the excitement of MMORPGs at that time, we would like to show players of the current time period the excitement of MMORPGs once again through FFXIV. Showing that it’s possible to play and enjoy it by spending time, without rushing, at their own pace.

A fetch-quest game vs. a game with clear purpose
Now then, FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn has adopted the quest form game design that was established by World of Warcraft. However, even since the old days of RPGs there have been small stories from towns that when cleared lead into larger stories, and this isn’t just related to WoW.

On the other hand, the world of an MMORPG is vast and is not like a regular game where you simply pass through and move on. As there are multiple classes and jobs, having players adventure through the entire world would result in a gigantic number of quests. Of course there are people who don’t want to read quest text and want to be able to finish them with a single click, so after WoW there have been many discussions on this topic.

However, without a pile of quests, it’s not possible to have players learn about the world, and there are ton of benefits for having these so users can play the game with a sense of progression.

In order to make it so FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn does not just become a fetch quest game we decided to add some variety and flavor. Of course, we’ve created a really large story since this is a new FINAL FANTASY title after all. However, for the so-called side-quests that have been spread along the main questing line, we’ve done our best to reduce the text, making it so the text can be skipped by spamming through it. For quests where major characters appear, we’ve made this clear by adding a special icon, and also spruced them up to make them exciting by adding voices and cutscenes. While we did not add voices to class and job quests, we still made them with the same thought process.

When it comes to hardcore MMORPG players like myself, it’s all about skipping text by spamming the mouse left-click to get to upper ranks of leveling and content. However, this is something that is sure to be fresh and new for the MMORPG newcomer, and we’d like to see gaps form between peoples’ various images of MMORPGs in a positive way, such as “whoa, there are a huge amount of quests,” “Just when I thought I was done there is another one,” and “Isn’t an MMO something you play with parties?”

The game design will largely change after the level 15 instanced battle quest. All of you adventurers will then begin taking on dungeons with parties throughout the main storyline so that you can meet new allies.

While I understand that there are some of you who feel that it would be better if you could clear everything by yourself, from an MMORPG business perspective, there is a necessity to make it so a large amount of players continue to play for a long time. Because of this, it’s critical that players interact with each other and build a strong community. This is why we have implemented party content in the main quest line and removed the stress of forming parties with the Duty Finder which automatically matches players.

Of course the real loss is if people get tired of the game on the way to level 15, but as I have written, I feel that it’s critical to make the beginning of an MMORPG one such that anyone can progress, and in the case that there are people that drop out or are not satisfied with the development of the game ahead, I feel this is fine as everyone has their own preferences. To some degree, the ideal for the beginning of the game is to get through it as fast as you can and moving on.

Other MMORPGs have a guild system you can set up after starting the game and playing for two hours. In FFXIV: ARR, we have Free Companies, but this can only be created after joining a Grand Company, which is different from other MMORPGs. Especially for those players who are new to MMORPGs, explaining guilds is difficult. The beginning of the game contains too many things to remember and if we had Free Company invitations added to the mix people would be completely lost. However, for those players who wish to form a Free Company right away, you can speed through the beginning and reach that point before you know it. We would like all kinds of players to succeed in this game, so while it might be somewhat of a nuisance for the advanced players, this was designed like this intentionally.

FFXIV: ARR Party Content Design
We’ve put in a considerable amount of work to add as much of the playable scenario as possible for launch. We’d like both MMORPG players and those new to MMORPGs to play the game comfortably while enjoying the newest story in the FINAL FANTASY series.

As I have already mentioned, the party dungeons that will start from level 15 will not require you to worry about finding parties as we have prepared a feature known as the Duty Finder which will automatically form parties (During the third test of Beta Test phase 3 we will be performing Duty Finder stress tests.). With that said, the only things you really need to worry about are leveling up to level 50 and dungeon difficulty.

The difficulty for the 2 dungeons from level 15 has been set you can get excited about your victory and not worry about wiping with the first party of players you meet. With the third dungeon there will be some special mechanics, and for primal battles within the scenario that take place after that, you’ll come to learn that for large boss battles you’ll need a solid strategy to win.

For the Legacy members who have done the end-game content up until the end of 1.0, as well as for players who are familiar with other MMORPGs, the content that you encounter while leveling up to the cap will be a walk in the park. However, the most important point here is that you can have fun and clear content as players with different levels of knowledge will be matched and grouped by the Duty Finder.

The difficulty will increase as the story progresses. Likewise, you role as a particular class will become clearer as you learn weapon skills, magic, and abilities, and the number of times you wipe will gradually increase in the event that you do not properly formulate a battle plan that involves the skilled use of abilities and attack positioning.

We’ve paid extremely close attention to the design of this content so that the balance and difficulty increases, the clear need for strategies to clear content, and the need for equipment can be easily understood. Similarly, this is also the biggest reason why we’ve also made the battle system foundation as simple as possible. The MMORPG battle system and the battle content design are one and the same.

Additionally, once you start getting into crafting and gathering, the game will become even more in-depth and a ton of content you can do each day will be introduced. We’d like you to enjoy the world of Eorzea relaxed in your own style and at your own pace.

Once the main scenario reaches its first major milestone, I believe the meaning behind the opening will become clear.

Doing the quests and reading the story text without leveling another class, continuing to play straight through for 60-80 hours you can see the world’s longest list of credits, and even after that continue to adventure through Eorzea. There will begin to be a difference in player skills as large enemies appear and players gather equipment to combat these foes. There are a ton of plans in store: primals that are summoned in to Eorzea, the housing system, what happened to Bahamut, the Crystal Tower, large scale PvP, company crafting, and more. The feeling that you are living in Eorzea will really take place after the “ending.”

It’s at this point in time where you will start to need multiple level 50 classes and jobs, battle strategies, efficient usage of skills, and intense analysis from players passionate about research. This is why the early stages of the game and the core battle system have been simplified. The much discussed length of GCD is because you have time to think at the moment, yet once you reach end-game, that free time will be all but gone as what you need to do will increase, so with that said we do not plan on eliminating this.

In closing
I still have so much I could write, but eventually it would just turn into a book…
I apologize for making this so long, but FFXIV: ARR is a game that we have designed with these core concepts in mind. While it may seem a huge list of reasoning, once you start playing, this reasoning could matter less, so though I am yet again repeating myself, we are placing the utmost importance on making sure everyone enjoys the game.

The development team has been checking Twitter, Facebook, blogs, and other sites in addition to the forums to get a wide view of impressions of Beta Test phase 3. Also, please know that we are not making decisions solely based on the number of “Likes” a post has on the forum. There are a lot of differing opinions on the forums and it’s the important work of the operations team to read this data objectively and collect it so there is no bias, reporting it as a ratio of those who post from the total player population.

As long as there are likes and dislikes for games, there will always be conflicting opinions. There are a lot of cases where if we decide to adopt A, then adopting B becomes impossible, so in order to prevent missteps when making decisions, we think about your feedback extremely carefully.

In the Player Feedback Status List that we released the other day, there were items that we addressed as well as those that we did not along with a clear explanation. Since MMORPGs are a service industry, I feel that all of these discussions are extremely important for MMORPG operation, so instead of only “they did this,” “they are not doing that,” “I think this,” “I think it should be this way,” it’s my sincere wish that everyone takes a step back a bit and have fun talking about the game.

Before posting, I’d like to ask you to please check to make sure that your post won’t have a negative effect on those around you. Up until now Square Enix has been a pretty closed off company, so I’m sure there are some players who really want to state their demands. Of course we will listen to them sincerely, but please base them all on having fun first and foremost.

I’m repeating myself, but there is no need for players who are experiencing MMORPGs for the first time to overthink this. We’ve made it so you can have fun and reach your goal by preparing a ton of exciting and fun cutscenes and making balance adjustments as we go.

We actually tried testing out early battles where the maximum TP was lowered so you would have to really pay more attention to it. However, it was tiring to repeat that kind of battle over and over on random fodder monsters. With 1 on 1 battles, your efficiency in avoiding enemy skills improves around level 5, and you learn that only attacking enemies from the front in instanced quest battles will result in death.

I definitely understand spicing things up, and that’s why it has to be just right. However, as I stated previously, the beginning of an MMORPG is not only focused on battle. There is a world, people, time passes in real-time, battles, crafting, gathering, chatting, and creating your ideal characters.

In order to have you all enjoy the world, we’ve prepared the battles at the beginning of the game to be just the first step before shifting into the more difficult aspects (We plan on reducing the difficulty for the level 15 instanced battle quest a little bit more.). If you don’t think this shift was done very well, then that is my fault.

In Beta Test phase 3 the level cap has been set to level 35, and the difficulty for the Brayflox dungeon has been set slightly harder than the official release version. For those who are dying for a challenging dungeon, please give it a shot!

In order to satisfy all kinds of players, we have our goals set very high, but we will continue to work as hard as possible, and would love for you all to stay with us for many years to come!


Edited, Jun 23rd 2013 11:30am by HaibaneRenmei
#9 Jun 23 2013 at 9:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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I remember sometime ago, when people were questioning Yoshida's credentials. We were asked why we were "blindly" putting our faith in this guy. I sincerely hope that those very same people read through each of those posts. This is exactly why i have faith in Yoshi~P, in ARR, and a bit of renewed faith in SE in general.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2013 11:31am by Teneleven
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#10 Jun 23 2013 at 9:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Teneleven wrote:
I remember sometime ago, when people were questioning Yoshida's credentials. We were asked why we were "blindly" putting our faith in this guy. I sincerely hope that those very same people read through each of those posts. This is exactly why i have faith in Yoshi~P, in ARR, and a bit of renewed faith in SE in general.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2013 11:31am by Teneleven


I agree completely. I am growing more and more fond of him as well as the product he's giving us. The man knows exactly what and who he wants.
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#11 Jun 23 2013 at 9:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't remember in any mmo or multiplayer centric game that I've played to where the man in charge gave this much feedback to the community.

I'm already having a great time trying out different things in game, but to also see this kind of support outside of the game gives me great hope that it will grow with care and I'll be enjoying it for years to come. It's like, yeah ok Yoshi-P, I smell what you're steppin in.
#12 Jun 23 2013 at 9:50 AM Rating: Good
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Thanks!!

Gonna read this one carefully, really interesting and deep explanation there.
#13 Jun 23 2013 at 9:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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I may not like everything Yoshi is doing but I respect someone who is genuine and assertive.

It's hard to trust someone when they are constantly flip flopping and changing their minds on things based off knee jerk reactions. Here's looking at you Xboxone....

Edited, Jun 23rd 2013 11:51am by sandpark
#14 Jun 23 2013 at 10:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm telling you... The man deserves a medal. Regardless of the outcome of XIV. He has taken what most people considered a complete failure and built something amazing. It may not please the whole world. I think it is going to get a couple years out of me.
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#15 Jun 23 2013 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
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It's very very impressive for a director of an MMO to actually speak their mind. Of course I know that people will complain, but for me I enjoy questing, exploring and grouping. If FFXIV can give me that... then I'll play it for years.
#16 Jun 23 2013 at 10:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yoshida-san shouldn't be hiding this stuff in the beta forums. It's too good not to share.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2013 12:16pm by Xoie
#17 Jun 23 2013 at 10:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Wow that was an interesting read, but I do understand some of the Battle system that FFXIV:ARR trying to achieve there.

Quote:

With these goals in mind we have built the content and the battle system.
Visually noticeable AoE attacks that you can avoid by moving


The AoE mechanics is definitely a fun factor there. Really makes the players to keep an eye on. Bombs' Self Destruct and Maidservant in Haukke Manor is a fun one if you get what I mean xD.

Quote:

A system where you can boost damage by attacking from certain positions


I played Pugilist so positioning is really a must for me if I want to deal maximum damage. Example is Bootshine for 100% critical damage when hit from behind after you get the required form, Twin Snaked from Flank, etc.

Quote:

Freedom to put things together by executing skills that follow a specific route


This. If you played Pugilist, then you know what he's trying to say. The "Forms" mechanics really gives that freedom of skill executions one you get access to more skills at higher level. My Pug is lvl 34 and it's really fun to play with. Example you can go Bootshine > True Strike > Snap Punch, but you can also go Bootshine > Twin Snakes > Demolish, etc. So many combinations~

Quote:

Being able to fixate on dealing the most damage while giving consideration to TP/MP costs in the end-game.


This. I know some people said that the TP regen is fast in the game, but that's not the case actually. Once you hit the 25+ dungeon, you really need to watch your TP/MP, because before you know it, it's already depleted.

Quote:

Jump not being essential for clearing content


Thank god.

Quote:

The difficulty will increase as the story progresses. Likewise, you role as a particular class will become clearer as you learn weapon skills, magic, and abilities, and the number of times you wipe will gradually increase in the event that you do not properly formulate a battle plan that involves the skilled use of abilities and attack positioning.


Originally when I played pugilist I thought it was just about combo-ing, but once you get access to Demolish (lvl 30 quest skill), the DoT becomes essential to use. Use that DoTs Pugs~!! XD Stacking Touch of Death & Demolish really makes a difference, plus Pugs perform much better when standing behind mobs most of the time. The number of Criticals are just amazing.

Quote:

The difficulty for the 2 dungeons from level 15 has been set you can get excited about your victory and not worry about wiping with the first party of players you meet. With the third dungeon there will be some special mechanics, and for primal battles within the scenario that take place after that, you’ll come to learn that for large boss battles you’ll need a solid strategy to win.


The blob fight in Copperbell Mines is a good example`XD

Quote:

In Beta Test phase 3 the level cap has been set to level 35, and the difficulty for the Brayflox dungeon has been set slightly harder than the official release version. For those who are dying for a challenging dungeon, please give it a shot!


Did this earlier, and it was a fun dungeon. You get to fight a Dragon this time. Although if I have to choose, Haukke Manor is still the most difficult and challenging one for me.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2013 12:23pm by wcloudxkumo
#18 Jun 23 2013 at 10:18 AM Rating: Good
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This is very impressive. And it assures me that I have made the right decision in sticking with this game. Good job Yoshi Smiley: clap
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#19 Jun 23 2013 at 10:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think this is as much about battle changes as much as Yoshi telling people that, although the combat is fine, there's much more to a game and a game's longevity than combat.

I think he gets it. And this post was one of the few where I could see his thought processes in more detail. I mean, I always had a hunch that he got it, this just confirms it.

This game is looking more and more like FFXI-2 while borrowing elements from the other mainstream MMOs and that's exactly what they needed to do.

After playing phase 3 and reading this I am hopeful for the future. I also think Yoshi is having a jab at the more negative theorists, when he says "just have fun talking about the game." In short, I think he's telling those people that the game is pretty much the way it's going to be and if you can't be constructive don't bother....which is kinda funny.
#20 Jun 23 2013 at 11:17 AM Rating: Good
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wcloudxkumo wrote:


Quote:

Jump not being essential for clearing content


Thank god.



Why?
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#21 Jun 23 2013 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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After a long time playing FFXI, which I loved dearly, I wasn't particularly surprised at the end result of their next-generation MMORPG; FFXIV 1.0. It was certain things -- like not being able to jump, like Gridania's exterior being designed like an actual grid -- that really spoke poorly of S-E's approach to the game. Being familiar with the company from years and years spent playing FFXI, and how inflexible they were about certain things, I could see where XIV was headed and I gladly cast off the franchise with the opinion that they got what they deserved.

Fast forward to 2013 and somehow Square has accomplished a miracle; they have regained my trust and my interest (for this game, at least). Reading posts like this, they are saying exactly what I wanted/needed to hear and, as such, have made me a pre-ordering customer.

In particular, coming from other games like Guild Wars 2, I couldn't help but notice that I was playing a single-player game in an online world. GW2 has its fun parts, but at one point it donned on me that I was very near to the level cap after only a short period of time...and not once had the game guided me into meaningful interaction with other players. I had my complaints about FFXI, but the one thing that kept me playing for as long as I did was the community.

I am very glad to see that they are focusing on community building, on immersion, and on the sense of accomplishment that comes from difficulty and strategy.
#22 Jun 23 2013 at 11:29 AM Rating: Good
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@Transmigration

Happened to me several times where I landed and got stuck and unable to move. Had to teleport or Return >.<

Edited, Jun 23rd 2013 1:30pm by wcloudxkumo
#23 Jun 23 2013 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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Transmigration wrote:
wcloudxkumo wrote:


Quote:

Jump not being essential for clearing content


Thank god.



Why?


Jump has so far been solely useful for travel. You can hop over rocks and stuff you could not have hoped to climb before. I think it's given them a lot more flexibility in zone design, too.
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#24 Jun 23 2013 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
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Some people just don't have jump skills, the amount of raids that have failed because someone missed a jump makes it more annoying than anything.
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#25 Jun 23 2013 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
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PyrielDD wrote:
Some people just don't have jump skills, the amount of raids that have failed because someone missed a jump makes it more annoying than anything.


That's why I like it though. It adds another element to the challenge. I don't see the fact that some people can't do something well as good reasoning not to include it. It has been totally game changing for travel, I agree Cat. Why not put it to use during raid encounters and quests that maybe require you to jump between floating islands or something though? I don't see why people are so against it. I've died in a lot of raids because the tank couldn't taunt in time, should we get rid of threat too? I don't get it.

Other than that, things are looking awesome. I'm really happy to see that the devs are planning some difficult encounters and value their more skilled playerbase. Very positive post by Yoshi for ARR's future in the market. Let's get swimming and ladder climbing in there too someday!

Edited, Jun 23rd 2013 1:57pm by Transmigration
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#26 Jun 23 2013 at 11:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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I feel a new connection to Yoshi knowing we both played Ultima Online. I feel like I could sit down with the man and reminisce about the good old days. I must say it also makes me feel a little old.
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#27 Jun 23 2013 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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kainsilv wrote:
I feel a new connection to Yoshi knowing we both played Ultima Online. I feel like I could sit down with the man and reminisce about the good old days. I must say it also makes me feel a little old.


I know right? I'm turning 29 in a couple of months :(
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#28 Jun 23 2013 at 12:05 PM Rating: Good
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Yea he really seems to listen.. I just hope he has the back bone too say no sometimes that would not be good for the game. Seems like he does.

As far as the flashiness isnt there a setting to turn it down, I thought there was, Party members, others and yourself..
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#29 Jun 23 2013 at 12:13 PM Rating: Good
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Reading what he said is odd because it's so close to how I want to lecture some of the people on the forums in more games than this. Yes the battle system needs tweaking and the game can feel a bit slow to level in at times but the game is being built how I think it needs to be to get new and old players in and stay around.

I played this weekend as my THM and did all the dungeons up to the Thousand Maws one in South Shroud, and while I felt changing between fire and blizzard was a neat system it definitly started to give me a pinky cramp pressing shift so much. Some people might say the system needs to be redesigned but I think the way they are moving making tweaks here and there is way better. I do not want to see a cycle of nerfs and buffs making flavour of the month classes, I much prefer the small adjustment approach they are doing to get what they intended to feel right.
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#30 Jun 23 2013 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
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PyrielDD wrote:
Reading what he said is odd because it's so close to how I want to lecture some of the people on the forums in more games than this. Yes the battle system needs tweaking and the game can feel a bit slow to level in at times but the game is being built how I think it needs to be to get new and old players in and stay around.

I played this weekend as my THM and did all the dungeons up to the Thousand Maws one in South Shroud, and while I felt changing between fire and blizzard was a neat system it definitly started to give me a pinky cramp pressing shift so much. Some people might say the system needs to be redesigned but I think the way they are moving making tweaks here and there is way better. I do not want to see a cycle of nerfs and buffs making flavour of the month classes, I much prefer the small adjustment approach they are doing to get what they intended to feel right.


I understand how you feel >.<.

You should try playing using the controllers. I have tried using both Keyboard and Controller on PC, and so far the controller felt the best. I less tired compared to keyboard since I can sit back and relax. The UI is really good also.
#31 Jun 23 2013 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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Yes I considered using my controller but I couldn't get it to work and didn't feel like playing with it to long since the weekend was running down. Instead I decided to try making a new character, a marauder, and see how they changed the low levels, since all my classes were 15+ I wanted to see low level again.
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#32 Jun 23 2013 at 12:48 PM Rating: Decent
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It's hilarious how controversial the jump feature is among the FF player base.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2013 2:58pm by BrokenFox
#33 Jun 23 2013 at 1:04 PM Rating: Excellent
I used to not want jump, but now I really like it! I am glad it is not a battle gimmick though. There are better, more realistic ways to keep fights interesting.
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#34 Jun 23 2013 at 2:38 PM Rating: Decent
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The blob fight in Copperbell Mines is a good example`XD

Yes, THAT was a great, great riddle, hahaha!
A real flashback to single-player RPG secrets
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It's so unfortunate that all those who join later
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them in some database.

#35 Jun 23 2013 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
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kainsilv wrote:
I feel a new connection to Yoshi knowing we both played Ultima Online. I feel like I could sit down with the man and reminisce about the good old days. I must say it also makes me feel a little old.


Now I wonder if I ever Corp Por/Vas Flam'd poor young Yoshi P.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2013 5:21pm by KarlHungis
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#36 Jun 23 2013 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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PyrielDD wrote:
Reading what he said is odd because it's so close to how I want to lecture some of the people on the forums in more games than this. Yes the battle system needs tweaking and the game can feel a bit slow to level in at times but the game is being built how I think it needs to be to get new and old players in and stay around.

I played this weekend as my THM and did all the dungeons up to the Thousand Maws one in South Shroud, and while I felt changing between fire and blizzard was a neat system it definitly started to give me a pinky cramp pressing shift so much. Some people might say the system needs to be redesigned but I think the way they are moving making tweaks here and there is way better. I do not want to see a cycle of nerfs and buffs making flavour of the month classes, I much prefer the small adjustment approach they are doing to get what they intended to feel right.


Why were you pressing shift?
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#37 Jun 23 2013 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
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I had Blizzard I and II on 1, and 2 and Fire I and II on Shift 1 and 2. Underestimated how often I would have to switch between blizzard and fire.
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#38 Jun 23 2013 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
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Fantastic post. I really feel my confidence for this guy is increasing

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#39 Jun 23 2013 at 5:17 PM Rating: Good
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PyrielDD wrote:
I had Blizzard I and II on 1, and 2 and Fire I and II on Shift 1 and 2. Underestimated how often I would have to switch between blizzard and fire.


Sounds like you'll need a new key bind strat! :/
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#40 Jun 23 2013 at 5:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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PyrielDD wrote:
I had Blizzard I and II on 1, and 2 and Fire I and II on Shift 1 and 2. Underestimated how often I would have to switch between blizzard and fire.

I know situations like this tend to get overlooked by my hardcore gamers wielding their specialized gaming hardware, but ability bloat is something I do worry about in basically any MMO. WASD style gameplay is extremely left hand focused with access to CTRL/ALT/Shift typically limited to your thumb or pinky depending on what else you need to be pressing at the moment. From there, reaching past 5 on the number row frequently can feel awkward and even result in things like settling back at ESDF instead. So, if you're sensibly limiting yourself to 1-5, then the secondary keys become needed to up your basic input to 20 possible commands.

There are some ways around this, like macros stringing abilities together you'd commonly use in some kind of combo. Pros might frown on this for reasons of disconnect, stuns, or whatnot, but they're utility as a comfort tool shouldn't be overlooked. Especially when it's likely that, as the root of the game, you'll be doing the same things over and over and over and over and over again. Ideally, one should be lesser used abilities as far right as possible on the bar, but a situation like needing to hit CTRL-0 just isn't possible with one hand alone, which leads to the dreaded disconnect of the right hand from the mouse. In such haste, you might not hit CTRL-0, instead firing the wrong ability or wondering why nothing happens. People might not admit to ever doing this, but rest assured it happens and far more likely for this new to the genre and familiarizing themselves with the game. Certainly, something like this can be a nod for the controller crowd. I'd love to see keyboard only (like XI) a reality, but I'm unsure if that can be managed with the current UI and key assignments. I'll need to dabble more when I get time. One could also feasibly do something like TERA does where if an ability combos, you can set the primary follow-up and you'd merely have to hit Space to continue the chain instead of 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > 5. The dreaded "dumbing down" or "spam to win" some might bemoan, but I really am a believer that the control scheme should not be the source of a player's frustration when playing. Let that lie in the actual battles, tactics, and whether or not a given combo is wise for a particular scenario.

I had a metric ******* of macros bound to my keyboard beyond the game's actual limitations thanks to Windower. And the only reason I managed that was because the game mercifully didn't require a mouse. When I look to games like Rift and see I'll have to have 20+ actions handy to be "good" at the game, I kind of groan because it usually means frustrating rotations while trying not to stand in the fire and such.




More to the topic of Yoshi's postings, I just hope he's mindful of the soloist/low-man endgame. He can say he understands that grouping is stressful, but that says nothing about not forcing it to progress your character come endgame. Doubly so if this group content demands large blocks of uninterrupted time. If the game can manage to keep more casual players from feeling like they're spinning their wheels and getting nowhere, then I'd call it a pretty significant step that other games have dropped the ball on for me.
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#41 Jun 23 2013 at 5:38 PM Rating: Good
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While I do not want to get too far off the topic of Yoshi-P's post, I'll just say that while I personally have a G19 keyboard and a SWTOR mouse with tons of buttons, not everyone has these available. Also as was mentioned not everyone has a controller for their PCs to use. While I can set up a system of keybinds that makes it so I don't have to get a hand cramp the problem is as mentioned potential skill bloat.

I think too often the official forums divolve into a "what I think is what everyone else thinks" fight that feedback that helps the game play better is lost, and its comforting to know that the developers, while taking in good feedback, are mostly sticking to one vision.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2013 7:39pm by PyrielDD
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#42 Jun 23 2013 at 5:44 PM Rating: Good
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I use 1-5, , Q, E, S, V, R, Ctrl+1-5, and two mouse buttons on my $20 hp 5000dpi gaming mouse. I have a G-15 but I've never even used the extra keys on it.
I don't use turn keys or back key (QES) and I turn with the mouse though, and I never use my pinky for anything. The sooner you get used to not having those stupid turn and s keys, the better off you'll be. It's a very poor design. I have no idea how it became the default control scheme in MMOs. Every serious player ends up dropping them anyway.

You can pick up a gaming keyboard + mouse for around $60 these days. It's a good investment if you don't already own them.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2013 7:45pm by Transmigration
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#43 Jun 23 2013 at 7:01 PM Rating: Good
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Warmouse The only Mouse you will ever need ;p
#44 Jun 23 2013 at 7:35 PM Rating: Good
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Transmigration wrote:
I don't use turn keys or back key (QES) and I turn with the mouse though, and I never use my pinky for anything. The sooner you get used to not having those stupid turn and s keys, the better off you'll be.


That's fine and dandy, unless you plan to tank. Draw-In's a confirmed ability of some monsters according to .dat mining, and S-Key backstepping slowly is one of the *BEST* tools a tank can use to try to re-position such monsters.

It's not even limited solely to FFXI/FFXIV; I can't count the number of times you need to slowly nudge a boss with cleave mechanics in MMOs that's simply too dangerous to try to strafe-kite him and S-Key ends up being the only viable safe option.



Edited, Jun 23rd 2013 9:37pm by Viertel
#45 Jun 23 2013 at 7:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:
More to the topic of Yoshi's postings, I just hope he's mindful of the soloist/low-man endgame. He can say he understands that grouping is stressful, but that says nothing about not forcing it to progress your character come endgame. Doubly so if this group content demands large blocks of uninterrupted time. If the game can manage to keep more casual players from feeling like they're spinning their wheels and getting nowhere, then I'd call it a pretty significant step that other games have dropped the ball on for me.


How are you going to do end game without groups? I think at some point you're going to have to suck it up and join other people.
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#46 Jun 23 2013 at 8:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Viertel wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
I don't use turn keys or back key (QES) and I turn with the mouse though, and I never use my pinky for anything. The sooner you get used to not having those stupid turn and s keys, the better off you'll be.


That's fine and dandy, unless you plan to tank. Draw-In's a confirmed ability of some monsters according to .dat mining, and S-Key backstepping slowly is one of the *BEST* tools a tank can use to try to re-position such monsters.

It's not even limited solely to FFXI/FFXIV; I can't count the number of times you need to slowly nudge a boss with cleave mechanics in MMOs that's simply too dangerous to try to strafe-kite him and S-Key ends up being the only viable safe option.



Edited, Jun 23rd 2013 9:37pm by Viertel


Absolutely, as a tank, S keying is imperative at times.
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#47 Jun 23 2013 at 10:02 PM Rating: Default
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Wint wrote:
Seriha wrote:
More to the topic of Yoshi's postings, I just hope he's mindful of the soloist/low-man endgame. He can say he understands that grouping is stressful, but that says nothing about not forcing it to progress your character come endgame. Doubly so if this group content demands large blocks of uninterrupted time. If the game can manage to keep more casual players from feeling like they're spinning their wheels and getting nowhere, then I'd call it a pretty significant step that other games have dropped the ball on for me.


How are you going to do end game without groups? I think at some point you're going to have to suck it up and join other people.


Agreed. I like that Yoshi has gotten away from the tedium of FFXI (that game wasn't hard...just tedious). I like being able to level on my own terms, but endgame for me HAS to be in true FF form--a group of people working together to vanquish a powerful foe.
#48 Jun 23 2013 at 10:09 PM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:


More to the topic of Yoshi's postings, I just hope he's mindful of the soloist/low-man endgame. He can say he understands that grouping is stressful, but that says nothing about not forcing it to progress your character come endgame.


I don't think he's trying to hide the fact that end game is going to be almost exclusively catered to groups. If you're looking for a solo/small group end game this probably won't be the title for that.

Re read the section where he talks about the needs of retaining customers long term: they consider grouping to be essential to forming those social connections that keep people playing, and while that might just be a "nudge" at first, it's going to become more and more required as time goes on.

You might get to 50 just fine doing your own thing, but you're not going to have much to do when you get there if you aren't forming some social bonds and seeking out group activities.

IMO this is not a bad thing. As much as I enjoy doing my own thing and being on my own program, it truly is the social aspect that has always kept me "hooked" on certain MMOs. I don't want to be forced to spend all of my time grouped, but some amount of forced grouping is not only okay, I think it is absolutely necessary. More importantly, Yoshi P seems to think so.
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#49 Jun 23 2013 at 10:43 PM Rating: Good
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KarlHungis wrote:
Seriha wrote:


More to the topic of Yoshi's postings, I just hope he's mindful of the soloist/low-man endgame. He can say he understands that grouping is stressful, but that says nothing about not forcing it to progress your character come endgame.


I don't think he's trying to hide the fact that end game is going to be almost exclusively catered to groups. If you're looking for a solo/small group end game this probably won't be the title for that.

Re read the section where he talks about the needs of retaining customers long term: they consider grouping to be essential to forming those social connections that keep people playing, and while that might just be a "nudge" at first, it's going to become more and more required as time goes on.

You might get to 50 just fine doing your own thing, but you're not going to have much to do when you get there if you aren't forming some social bonds and seeking out group activities.

IMO this is not a bad thing. As much as I enjoy doing my own thing and being on my own program, it truly is the social aspect that has always kept me "hooked" on certain MMOs. I don't want to be forced to spend all of my time grouped, but some amount of forced grouping is not only okay, I think it is absolutely necessary. More importantly, Yoshi P seems to think so.



That's the thing:

The irony of forced grouping early (if done right) promotes end game grouping.

With games like GW2 where you can solo to cap, it doesn't really show you how and where to make those connections. At end game, I was bored, because well, the personal story was "Eh", and raiding over and over wasn't instilled prior to the end game. They had fluid and awesome public quests but then made you go back to the tried and tired raiding, ad nausem.

If the duty finder works, and if you have to group to progress, end game in mechanical terms would be like playing a round of CoD. Quick, easy, fun, but also with a sense of community.

I didn't make it that far into beta on purpose, because I didn't want to spoil the game. But I've heard that dungeons are more like regular leveling in FFXI, but instead of a camping, you're progressing.

---

I don't want to go back too far but I think it was the intention of FFXI for groups was to run around and kill mobs, rather than set up a camp and pull. So in this sense instances make this possible. EDIT: Now that I think about it, this is what page hunting/GoV kinda instilled....

I would like to see grouping in the main world as well, but mainly for the exploratory nature of it. I always go back to AF fights/high level missions/quests that need a group or can be done solo (at a higher level) as those were some of my favorite times in FFXI.

---

A bit off topic but has there been any mention of Coffers/Treasure Chests or Keys? Obviously we don't have a THF job/class yet, but that was also a favorite of mine as well.



Edited, Jun 24th 2013 12:45am by Kierk
#50 Jun 24 2013 at 3:04 AM Rating: Good
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kainsilv wrote:
I feel a new connection to Yoshi knowing we both played Ultima Online. I feel like I could sit down with the man and reminisce about the good old days. I must say it also makes me feel a little old.


Don't feel too old. My best friend's younger brother Played UO for many years, even before I started playing FFXI at PS2 launch. Hes only 22ish now... unless you also consider that old XD.
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#51 Jun 24 2013 at 3:15 AM Rating: Decent
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So basically one thing I got from this is that the game can be played almost like a standard RPG in that you can invest about 60-80 hours, leveling one class in order to complete the main story line. If this is true then I know some people that this game will appeal to. Not everyone wants to sit around and pay the monthly subscription fee. If you really spend the time on it you can beat the game in a month or so. Not bad I like the idea. In FFXI i played 5 years and never got to beat any of the story line despite having a lvl 68 character. It was just too hard for me to invest the time into finding parties to get things done.
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