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Message from Yoshi-P on battle system adjustmentsFollow

#27 Jun 23 2013 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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kainsilv wrote:
I feel a new connection to Yoshi knowing we both played Ultima Online. I feel like I could sit down with the man and reminisce about the good old days. I must say it also makes me feel a little old.


I know right? I'm turning 29 in a couple of months :(
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#28 Jun 23 2013 at 12:05 PM Rating: Good
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Yea he really seems to listen.. I just hope he has the back bone too say no sometimes that would not be good for the game. Seems like he does.

As far as the flashiness isnt there a setting to turn it down, I thought there was, Party members, others and yourself..
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#29 Jun 23 2013 at 12:13 PM Rating: Good
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Reading what he said is odd because it's so close to how I want to lecture some of the people on the forums in more games than this. Yes the battle system needs tweaking and the game can feel a bit slow to level in at times but the game is being built how I think it needs to be to get new and old players in and stay around.

I played this weekend as my THM and did all the dungeons up to the Thousand Maws one in South Shroud, and while I felt changing between fire and blizzard was a neat system it definitly started to give me a pinky cramp pressing shift so much. Some people might say the system needs to be redesigned but I think the way they are moving making tweaks here and there is way better. I do not want to see a cycle of nerfs and buffs making flavour of the month classes, I much prefer the small adjustment approach they are doing to get what they intended to feel right.
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#30 Jun 23 2013 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
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PyrielDD wrote:
Reading what he said is odd because it's so close to how I want to lecture some of the people on the forums in more games than this. Yes the battle system needs tweaking and the game can feel a bit slow to level in at times but the game is being built how I think it needs to be to get new and old players in and stay around.

I played this weekend as my THM and did all the dungeons up to the Thousand Maws one in South Shroud, and while I felt changing between fire and blizzard was a neat system it definitly started to give me a pinky cramp pressing shift so much. Some people might say the system needs to be redesigned but I think the way they are moving making tweaks here and there is way better. I do not want to see a cycle of nerfs and buffs making flavour of the month classes, I much prefer the small adjustment approach they are doing to get what they intended to feel right.


I understand how you feel >.<.

You should try playing using the controllers. I have tried using both Keyboard and Controller on PC, and so far the controller felt the best. I less tired compared to keyboard since I can sit back and relax. The UI is really good also.
#31 Jun 23 2013 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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Yes I considered using my controller but I couldn't get it to work and didn't feel like playing with it to long since the weekend was running down. Instead I decided to try making a new character, a marauder, and see how they changed the low levels, since all my classes were 15+ I wanted to see low level again.
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#32 Jun 23 2013 at 12:48 PM Rating: Decent
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It's hilarious how controversial the jump feature is among the FF player base.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2013 2:58pm by BrokenFox
#33 Jun 23 2013 at 1:04 PM Rating: Excellent
I used to not want jump, but now I really like it! I am glad it is not a battle gimmick though. There are better, more realistic ways to keep fights interesting.
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#34 Jun 23 2013 at 2:38 PM Rating: Decent
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#35 Jun 23 2013 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
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kainsilv wrote:
I feel a new connection to Yoshi knowing we both played Ultima Online. I feel like I could sit down with the man and reminisce about the good old days. I must say it also makes me feel a little old.


Now I wonder if I ever Corp Por/Vas Flam'd poor young Yoshi P.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2013 5:21pm by KarlHungis
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#36 Jun 23 2013 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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PyrielDD wrote:
Reading what he said is odd because it's so close to how I want to lecture some of the people on the forums in more games than this. Yes the battle system needs tweaking and the game can feel a bit slow to level in at times but the game is being built how I think it needs to be to get new and old players in and stay around.

I played this weekend as my THM and did all the dungeons up to the Thousand Maws one in South Shroud, and while I felt changing between fire and blizzard was a neat system it definitly started to give me a pinky cramp pressing shift so much. Some people might say the system needs to be redesigned but I think the way they are moving making tweaks here and there is way better. I do not want to see a cycle of nerfs and buffs making flavour of the month classes, I much prefer the small adjustment approach they are doing to get what they intended to feel right.


Why were you pressing shift?
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#37 Jun 23 2013 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
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I had Blizzard I and II on 1, and 2 and Fire I and II on Shift 1 and 2. Underestimated how often I would have to switch between blizzard and fire.
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#38 Jun 23 2013 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
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Fantastic post. I really feel my confidence for this guy is increasing

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#39 Jun 23 2013 at 5:17 PM Rating: Good
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PyrielDD wrote:
I had Blizzard I and II on 1, and 2 and Fire I and II on Shift 1 and 2. Underestimated how often I would have to switch between blizzard and fire.


Sounds like you'll need a new key bind strat! :/
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#40 Jun 23 2013 at 5:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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PyrielDD wrote:
I had Blizzard I and II on 1, and 2 and Fire I and II on Shift 1 and 2. Underestimated how often I would have to switch between blizzard and fire.

I know situations like this tend to get overlooked by my hardcore gamers wielding their specialized gaming hardware, but ability bloat is something I do worry about in basically any MMO. WASD style gameplay is extremely left hand focused with access to CTRL/ALT/Shift typically limited to your thumb or pinky depending on what else you need to be pressing at the moment. From there, reaching past 5 on the number row frequently can feel awkward and even result in things like settling back at ESDF instead. So, if you're sensibly limiting yourself to 1-5, then the secondary keys become needed to up your basic input to 20 possible commands.

There are some ways around this, like macros stringing abilities together you'd commonly use in some kind of combo. Pros might frown on this for reasons of disconnect, stuns, or whatnot, but they're utility as a comfort tool shouldn't be overlooked. Especially when it's likely that, as the root of the game, you'll be doing the same things over and over and over and over and over again. Ideally, one should be lesser used abilities as far right as possible on the bar, but a situation like needing to hit CTRL-0 just isn't possible with one hand alone, which leads to the dreaded disconnect of the right hand from the mouse. In such haste, you might not hit CTRL-0, instead firing the wrong ability or wondering why nothing happens. People might not admit to ever doing this, but rest assured it happens and far more likely for this new to the genre and familiarizing themselves with the game. Certainly, something like this can be a nod for the controller crowd. I'd love to see keyboard only (like XI) a reality, but I'm unsure if that can be managed with the current UI and key assignments. I'll need to dabble more when I get time. One could also feasibly do something like TERA does where if an ability combos, you can set the primary follow-up and you'd merely have to hit Space to continue the chain instead of 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > 5. The dreaded "dumbing down" or "spam to win" some might bemoan, but I really am a believer that the control scheme should not be the source of a player's frustration when playing. Let that lie in the actual battles, tactics, and whether or not a given combo is wise for a particular scenario.

I had a metric ******* of macros bound to my keyboard beyond the game's actual limitations thanks to Windower. And the only reason I managed that was because the game mercifully didn't require a mouse. When I look to games like Rift and see I'll have to have 20+ actions handy to be "good" at the game, I kind of groan because it usually means frustrating rotations while trying not to stand in the fire and such.




More to the topic of Yoshi's postings, I just hope he's mindful of the soloist/low-man endgame. He can say he understands that grouping is stressful, but that says nothing about not forcing it to progress your character come endgame. Doubly so if this group content demands large blocks of uninterrupted time. If the game can manage to keep more casual players from feeling like they're spinning their wheels and getting nowhere, then I'd call it a pretty significant step that other games have dropped the ball on for me.
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#41 Jun 23 2013 at 5:38 PM Rating: Good
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While I do not want to get too far off the topic of Yoshi-P's post, I'll just say that while I personally have a G19 keyboard and a SWTOR mouse with tons of buttons, not everyone has these available. Also as was mentioned not everyone has a controller for their PCs to use. While I can set up a system of keybinds that makes it so I don't have to get a hand cramp the problem is as mentioned potential skill bloat.

I think too often the official forums divolve into a "what I think is what everyone else thinks" fight that feedback that helps the game play better is lost, and its comforting to know that the developers, while taking in good feedback, are mostly sticking to one vision.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2013 7:39pm by PyrielDD
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#42 Jun 23 2013 at 5:44 PM Rating: Good
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I use 1-5, , Q, E, S, V, R, Ctrl+1-5, and two mouse buttons on my $20 hp 5000dpi gaming mouse. I have a G-15 but I've never even used the extra keys on it.
I don't use turn keys or back key (QES) and I turn with the mouse though, and I never use my pinky for anything. The sooner you get used to not having those stupid turn and s keys, the better off you'll be. It's a very poor design. I have no idea how it became the default control scheme in MMOs. Every serious player ends up dropping them anyway.

You can pick up a gaming keyboard + mouse for around $60 these days. It's a good investment if you don't already own them.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2013 7:45pm by Transmigration
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#43 Jun 23 2013 at 7:01 PM Rating: Good
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#44 Jun 23 2013 at 7:35 PM Rating: Good
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Transmigration wrote:
I don't use turn keys or back key (QES) and I turn with the mouse though, and I never use my pinky for anything. The sooner you get used to not having those stupid turn and s keys, the better off you'll be.


That's fine and dandy, unless you plan to tank. Draw-In's a confirmed ability of some monsters according to .dat mining, and S-Key backstepping slowly is one of the *BEST* tools a tank can use to try to re-position such monsters.

It's not even limited solely to FFXI/FFXIV; I can't count the number of times you need to slowly nudge a boss with cleave mechanics in MMOs that's simply too dangerous to try to strafe-kite him and S-Key ends up being the only viable safe option.



Edited, Jun 23rd 2013 9:37pm by Viertel
#45 Jun 23 2013 at 7:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:
More to the topic of Yoshi's postings, I just hope he's mindful of the soloist/low-man endgame. He can say he understands that grouping is stressful, but that says nothing about not forcing it to progress your character come endgame. Doubly so if this group content demands large blocks of uninterrupted time. If the game can manage to keep more casual players from feeling like they're spinning their wheels and getting nowhere, then I'd call it a pretty significant step that other games have dropped the ball on for me.


How are you going to do end game without groups? I think at some point you're going to have to suck it up and join other people.
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#46 Jun 23 2013 at 8:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Viertel wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
I don't use turn keys or back key (QES) and I turn with the mouse though, and I never use my pinky for anything. The sooner you get used to not having those stupid turn and s keys, the better off you'll be.


That's fine and dandy, unless you plan to tank. Draw-In's a confirmed ability of some monsters according to .dat mining, and S-Key backstepping slowly is one of the *BEST* tools a tank can use to try to re-position such monsters.

It's not even limited solely to FFXI/FFXIV; I can't count the number of times you need to slowly nudge a boss with cleave mechanics in MMOs that's simply too dangerous to try to strafe-kite him and S-Key ends up being the only viable safe option.



Edited, Jun 23rd 2013 9:37pm by Viertel


Absolutely, as a tank, S keying is imperative at times.
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#47 Jun 23 2013 at 10:02 PM Rating: Default
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Wint wrote:
Seriha wrote:
More to the topic of Yoshi's postings, I just hope he's mindful of the soloist/low-man endgame. He can say he understands that grouping is stressful, but that says nothing about not forcing it to progress your character come endgame. Doubly so if this group content demands large blocks of uninterrupted time. If the game can manage to keep more casual players from feeling like they're spinning their wheels and getting nowhere, then I'd call it a pretty significant step that other games have dropped the ball on for me.


How are you going to do end game without groups? I think at some point you're going to have to suck it up and join other people.


Agreed. I like that Yoshi has gotten away from the tedium of FFXI (that game wasn't hard...just tedious). I like being able to level on my own terms, but endgame for me HAS to be in true FF form--a group of people working together to vanquish a powerful foe.
#48 Jun 23 2013 at 10:09 PM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:


More to the topic of Yoshi's postings, I just hope he's mindful of the soloist/low-man endgame. He can say he understands that grouping is stressful, but that says nothing about not forcing it to progress your character come endgame.


I don't think he's trying to hide the fact that end game is going to be almost exclusively catered to groups. If you're looking for a solo/small group end game this probably won't be the title for that.

Re read the section where he talks about the needs of retaining customers long term: they consider grouping to be essential to forming those social connections that keep people playing, and while that might just be a "nudge" at first, it's going to become more and more required as time goes on.

You might get to 50 just fine doing your own thing, but you're not going to have much to do when you get there if you aren't forming some social bonds and seeking out group activities.

IMO this is not a bad thing. As much as I enjoy doing my own thing and being on my own program, it truly is the social aspect that has always kept me "hooked" on certain MMOs. I don't want to be forced to spend all of my time grouped, but some amount of forced grouping is not only okay, I think it is absolutely necessary. More importantly, Yoshi P seems to think so.
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#49 Jun 23 2013 at 10:43 PM Rating: Good
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KarlHungis wrote:
Seriha wrote:


More to the topic of Yoshi's postings, I just hope he's mindful of the soloist/low-man endgame. He can say he understands that grouping is stressful, but that says nothing about not forcing it to progress your character come endgame.


I don't think he's trying to hide the fact that end game is going to be almost exclusively catered to groups. If you're looking for a solo/small group end game this probably won't be the title for that.

Re read the section where he talks about the needs of retaining customers long term: they consider grouping to be essential to forming those social connections that keep people playing, and while that might just be a "nudge" at first, it's going to become more and more required as time goes on.

You might get to 50 just fine doing your own thing, but you're not going to have much to do when you get there if you aren't forming some social bonds and seeking out group activities.

IMO this is not a bad thing. As much as I enjoy doing my own thing and being on my own program, it truly is the social aspect that has always kept me "hooked" on certain MMOs. I don't want to be forced to spend all of my time grouped, but some amount of forced grouping is not only okay, I think it is absolutely necessary. More importantly, Yoshi P seems to think so.



That's the thing:

The irony of forced grouping early (if done right) promotes end game grouping.

With games like GW2 where you can solo to cap, it doesn't really show you how and where to make those connections. At end game, I was bored, because well, the personal story was "Eh", and raiding over and over wasn't instilled prior to the end game. They had fluid and awesome public quests but then made you go back to the tried and tired raiding, ad nausem.

If the duty finder works, and if you have to group to progress, end game in mechanical terms would be like playing a round of CoD. Quick, easy, fun, but also with a sense of community.

I didn't make it that far into beta on purpose, because I didn't want to spoil the game. But I've heard that dungeons are more like regular leveling in FFXI, but instead of a camping, you're progressing.

---

I don't want to go back too far but I think it was the intention of FFXI for groups was to run around and kill mobs, rather than set up a camp and pull. So in this sense instances make this possible. EDIT: Now that I think about it, this is what page hunting/GoV kinda instilled....

I would like to see grouping in the main world as well, but mainly for the exploratory nature of it. I always go back to AF fights/high level missions/quests that need a group or can be done solo (at a higher level) as those were some of my favorite times in FFXI.

---

A bit off topic but has there been any mention of Coffers/Treasure Chests or Keys? Obviously we don't have a THF job/class yet, but that was also a favorite of mine as well.



Edited, Jun 24th 2013 12:45am by Kierk
#50 Jun 24 2013 at 3:04 AM Rating: Good
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kainsilv wrote:
I feel a new connection to Yoshi knowing we both played Ultima Online. I feel like I could sit down with the man and reminisce about the good old days. I must say it also makes me feel a little old.


Don't feel too old. My best friend's younger brother Played UO for many years, even before I started playing FFXI at PS2 launch. Hes only 22ish now... unless you also consider that old XD.
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#51 Jun 24 2013 at 3:15 AM Rating: Decent
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So basically one thing I got from this is that the game can be played almost like a standard RPG in that you can invest about 60-80 hours, leveling one class in order to complete the main story line. If this is true then I know some people that this game will appeal to. Not everyone wants to sit around and pay the monthly subscription fee. If you really spend the time on it you can beat the game in a month or so. Not bad I like the idea. In FFXI i played 5 years and never got to beat any of the story line despite having a lvl 68 character. It was just too hard for me to invest the time into finding parties to get things done.
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