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Message from Yoshi-P on battle system adjustmentsFollow

#52 Jun 24 2013 at 8:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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KarlHungis wrote:
Seriha wrote:


More to the topic of Yoshi's postings, I just hope he's mindful of the soloist/low-man endgame. He can say he understands that grouping is stressful, but that says nothing about not forcing it to progress your character come endgame.


I don't think he's trying to hide the fact that end game is going to be almost exclusively catered to groups. If you're looking for a solo/small group end game this probably won't be the title for that.

Re read the section where he talks about the needs of retaining customers long term: they consider grouping to be essential to forming those social connections that keep people playing, and while that might just be a "nudge" at first, it's going to become more and more required as time goes on.

You might get to 50 just fine doing your own thing, but you're not going to have much to do when you get there if you aren't forming some social bonds and seeking out group activities.

IMO this is not a bad thing. As much as I enjoy doing my own thing and being on my own program, it truly is the social aspect that has always kept me "hooked" on certain MMOs. I don't want to be forced to spend all of my time grouped, but some amount of forced grouping is not only okay, I think it is absolutely necessary. More importantly, Yoshi P seems to think so.

If it turns out I can just click on the Duty Finder and generally get things done quickly without pulling my hair out, fine. What I don't want is endgame to be having to show up 8pm every night for 4 hours, mandatory voice chat, and basically being a slave to player-run point systems if in-game currency/participation tracking isn't present. My schedule simply isn't stable, and if the first thought one might evoke is that, "This game isn't for you, then..." my prompt, blunt, and emphatic response is, ********** you."

It is inevitable that I will level all the classes I enjoy to cap, but then what? Where's the fun in guild hopping with no guarantee you'll find a group that suits your needs? Why pay a sub for a game where you may only effectively progress a couple nights out of 30 days? There are only two reasons to "prevent" such progress, and only one of them is legit. The first one is dev time/resources. Forgive me for believing this not an issue for SE, all things considered. The second reason, and ultimately BS, are those who can group without difficulty/are lucky don't want people who can't being at all comparable in gear/potential.

If it's unclear what I'm getting at, then perhaps this example will help. Take 2 players, both can play 3 hours a day. The first one logs in every day at 7pm, has no interruptions, and logs off at 10pm. He has decent flexibility when it comes to waiting in queues/LFG. Forming a static party for various things is also more likely. As for the second player, they're not so lucky. They sneak in a half hour before work, perhaps. They come home, play an hour, and then take care of dinner and perhaps some other things around the house. They sneak in another half hour, but then have to put their kids to bed. After that, they manage another 30 minutes before going to bed, themselves. At any point during that span, though, they could be interrupted by their family. Comparably speaking, both players are of equal skill. Yet, since the second is more pinched for time, they're "doomed" to mediocrity if no options of late game advancement are present to match their pace.

I don't think that's cool, no matter how much the first person or those like him feels the second doesn't "need" the same stuff. We all want our characters to grow socially and statistically. And over time, people of the first type are far less likely to want to play with the second if there's no incentive, and why should they? Teaching people can be a pain. Unequal gear could mean a mediocre tank incapable of keeping a mob off a strong damage dealer. There's a certain irony to demanding the social element outright killing itself if people can't keep up, and it only gets worse the more layers of tiering you add on.

So, if Yoshi is truly mindful of the social element, and not just Japanese customs, he best realize the divides he risks ushering.
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#53 Jun 24 2013 at 8:26 AM Rating: Decent
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So this tool that will be included that allows you to select your job and enter dungeons will it be cross server or just from your home world?
#54 Jun 24 2013 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
So this tool that will be included that allows you to select your job and enter dungeons will it be cross server or just from your home world?

Cross server.
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#55 Jun 24 2013 at 8:44 AM Rating: Decent
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He's a smart dude. It is sad to see many of the comments. I mean, XI, which i saw comparisons to, was mashing 1112121324 as well, there was just no hotbar, so that meant two extra steps to get to the attack or spell. People complained about no familiar hotbar, so it was added in 2.0. Now they complain because they have to use it as intended? I enjoyed every aspect of my play this weekend. Can't wait!
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#56 Jun 24 2013 at 8:47 AM Rating: Decent
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LebargeX wrote:
HaibaneRenmei wrote:
So this tool that will be included that allows you to select your job and enter dungeons will it be cross server or just from your home world?

Cross server.

...but region-specific.
#57 Jun 24 2013 at 8:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
LebargeX wrote:
HaibaneRenmei wrote:
So this tool that will be included that allows you to select your job and enter dungeons will it be cross server or just from your home world?

Cross server.

...but region-specific.


This is good because I am on legacy server and havent completed much end-game content putting me at a slight disadvantage. As a resultI found it hard to find folks needing the same things as me on the already much less populated legacy servers.
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#58 Jun 24 2013 at 9:00 AM Rating: Decent
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I used to not want jump, but now I really like it! I am glad it is not a battle gimmick though. There are better, more realistic ways to keep fights interesting.


We spent 15 minutes just mindlessly jumping on Goobue back, just to be jerks.

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#59 Jun 24 2013 at 9:39 AM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:


If it's unclear what I'm getting at, then perhaps this example will help. Take 2 players, both can play 3 hours a day. The first one logs in every day at 7pm, has no interruptions, and logs off at 10pm. He has decent flexibility when it comes to waiting in queues/LFG. Forming a static party for various things is also more likely. As for the second player, they're not so lucky. They sneak in a half hour before work, perhaps. They come home, play an hour, and then take care of dinner and perhaps some other things around the house. They sneak in another half hour, but then have to put their kids to bed. After that, they manage another 30 minutes before going to bed, themselves. At any point during that span, though, they could be interrupted by their family. Comparably speaking, both players are of equal skill. Yet, since the second is more pinched for time, they're "doomed" to mediocrity if no options of late game advancement are present to match their pace.
.


I know you don't want to hear this, but it sounds like the second player needs to be playing single player or match based multi player games, not MMOs.

Are there examples of successful MMOs which have met the criteria you're looking for?
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#60 Jun 24 2013 at 10:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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electromagnet83 wrote:
He's a smart dude. It is sad to see many of the comments. I mean, XI, which i saw comparisons to, was mashing 1112121324 as well, there was just no hotbar, so that meant two extra steps to get to the attack or spell. People complained about no familiar hotbar, so it was added in 2.0. Now they complain because they have to use it as intended? I enjoyed every aspect of my play this weekend. Can't wait!



XI is more like

ALT 1 (wait 20 seconds for 100+ tp)
ALT 1 (wait 20 seconds for 100+tp)
CTRL 4 (JA that boosts damage or somesuch
CTRL 3 (JA that boosts defense or somesuch)
ALT 1 (wait 20 seconds for 100+tp)

With the occasional extra macro in there for gear sets if you didn't have a Spellcast XML set up to take care of that automatically.

Oh, and mages were like

F2
CTRL 8 (haste)
F3
CTRL 8
F4
CTRL 5 (cure V)
CTRL 8 (haste)

or
ALT 5 (elegy)
CTRL 9 (march)
ALT 9 (march
ALT 2 + enter (horde lullaby)
CTRL 0 (ballad)
ALT 0 (ballad)
Rinse
Repeat

Any MMORPG will either have you doing proactive button mashing for buffs, or reactive button mashing for damage or cures. Either way it's still mashing buttons on a keyboard or a controller.
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#61 Jun 24 2013 at 10:53 AM Rating: Good
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Dude, Tekken 9 is such bullsh*t, just hit combos until they are dead, can we get some originality, maybe add a fatigue bar so you can only punch once every 30 seconds and add some strategy!
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#62 Jun 24 2013 at 10:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
He's a smart dude. It is sad to see many of the comments. I mean, XI, which i saw comparisons to, was mashing 1112121324 as well, there was just no hotbar, so that meant two extra steps to get to the attack or spell. People complained about no familiar hotbar, so it was added in 2.0. Now they complain because they have to use it as intended? I enjoyed every aspect of my play this weekend. Can't wait!



XI is more like

ALT 1 (wait 20 seconds for 100+ tp)
ALT 1 (wait 20 seconds for 100+tp)
CTRL 4 (JA that boosts damage or somesuch
CTRL 3 (JA that boosts defense or somesuch)
ALT 1 (wait 20 seconds for 100+tp)

With the occasional extra macro in there for gear sets if you didn't have a Spellcast XML set up to take care of that automatically.

Oh, and mages were like

F2
CTRL 8 (haste)
F3
CTRL 8
F4
CTRL 5 (cure V)
CTRL 8 (haste)

or
ALT 5 (elegy)
CTRL 9 (march)
ALT 9 (march
ALT 2 + enter (horde lullaby)
CTRL 0 (ballad)
ALT 0 (ballad)
Rinse
Repeat

Any MMORPG will either have you doing proactive button mashing for buffs, or reactive button mashing for damage or cures. Either way it's still mashing buttons on a keyboard or a controller.

This is very true except if you have analog pressure sensitive controls or triple context keys. Which I don't think they can add for every key on a keyboard.
This is why I keep asking for a skill modifier function to fine tune skills as they come out. It changes the flow from just smack key/spam rotation/watch cooldown.

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#63 Jun 24 2013 at 11:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Kierk wrote:
I don't want to go back too far but I think it was the intention of FFXI for groups was to run around and kill mobs, rather than set up a camp and pull. So in this sense instances make this possible. EDIT: Now that I think about it, this is what page hunting/GoV kinda instilled....


Yeah, but the problem in FFXI was that whoever actually did the monster spawn area and roaming patterns (as well as placement) didn't get that memo. You can't expect players to go slaughtering monsters in a moving party when you have both monsters 10-20 levels lower AND higher than your intended target. I do admit though actually moving camp would have made killing much more interesting but that ALSO would have involved allowing players to regen HP/MP at a decent rate out of combat.

Grounds of Valor tried to alleviate this issue except that books were spread and the chosen targets for well over 90% of the pages weren't thought out. It comes back to the whole issue of FFXI's massive screaming of "MY LEFT HAND DOES NOT KNOW WHAT MY RIGHT HAND IS DOING!"


Edited, Jun 24th 2013 1:03pm by Viertel
#64 Jun 24 2013 at 11:45 AM Rating: Good
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KarlHungis wrote:
Seriha wrote:


If it's unclear what I'm getting at, then perhaps this example will help. Take 2 players, both can play 3 hours a day. The first one logs in every day at 7pm, has no interruptions, and logs off at 10pm. He has decent flexibility when it comes to waiting in queues/LFG. Forming a static party for various things is also more likely. As for the second player, they're not so lucky. They sneak in a half hour before work, perhaps. They come home, play an hour, and then take care of dinner and perhaps some other things around the house. They sneak in another half hour, but then have to put their kids to bed. After that, they manage another 30 minutes before going to bed, themselves. At any point during that span, though, they could be interrupted by their family. Comparably speaking, both players are of equal skill. Yet, since the second is more pinched for time, they're "doomed" to mediocrity if no options of late game advancement are present to match their pace.
.


I know you don't want to hear this, but it sounds like the second player needs to be playing single player or match based multi player games, not MMOs.

Why? It's not because they're anti-social, are horrible players, or don't have friends (who may not all be on in their split play times). Seriously, what is wrong with the option? I'd even argue it's a bit bait-and-switch if someone can go to cap via questing solo, only to have nothing more they can do than repeat the process on another class. Phat lewt might be the motivator to unite strangers, but even a matchmaking system doesn't solve the problems of getting people together (flood of DPS, no tanks or healers ring a bell?).

Quote:
Are there examples of successful MMOs which have met the criteria you're looking for?

Not that I've found, but you've somewhat exemplified why. People are simply told to go elsewhere and we maybe get 1-3 MMOs a year if they don't flop for reasons not tied to this issue to really establish an endgame. A lot console games also have incredibly short lifespans for their price, of which people may turn to MMOs for cost efficient entertainment. I'd also argue it's a bit problematic that people who were playing MMOs 10 years or so ago are potentially the ones making them today, especially if coming at it from the hardcore mindset. So, it's nice Yoshi tries to look at things from the player and producer perspectives, but I would hope what I've mentioned crossed the mind of the latter. Fundamentally, more customers will mean more money. And while everyone has their own varied tastes and preferences, more money will allow them to produce more content. The MMO scene does not need another "raiders rule the roost" game. WoW does it. Rift does it. FFXI is gravitating toward it. TERA does it. GW2 does it. Unfortunately, there's a silent majority in all these games that are subject to the whims of vocal minorities who feel they're the most deserving of focus even if statistics show that a very small percentage of players have beaten a game's current top-tier content, let alone mid-tier. And arguably it's not because people aren't interested, it's because finding the bodies of he right jobs/classes at the right times are a perpetual cockblock, especially if you play at off-peak hours.

A game can still be multi-player without directly playing with or against others. Give the alternate progression strong ties to crafting without requiring raid drops and you can establish an economy that wouldn't be there if it's actually dungeon/raid drops > all. That way, if someone does get the chance to tag along in the big boy content, they have the means to not be total gimplets. It also strengthens the potential PUG pool. Let's also not forget the game boasts a lot of jobs/classes. Meaningful things to do for your off-jobs between the big content for your main isn't a bad thing, either. For the pathetically small fraction of players who "beat the game" by getting everything in a current patch/build and then ***** about having nothing to do really only have themselves to blame. They can find another game for a change.

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 1:49pm by Seriha
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#65 Jun 24 2013 at 12:11 PM Rating: Excellent
I always laugh when gamers rant about button mashing.

"TEH GAME WHEREZ YOU PUSH XYXYX BUT WAIT FOR 30 SECONDS BETWEEN PRESSES IS FINE, BUT ZOMG, PRESSING 1212314 IS TEH MASHINGS OF TEH BUTTONZ!!!"

Seriously. Go play on a Wii.
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#66 Jun 24 2013 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:

Why?


Because the business model of MMOs requires a high level of engagement over a long period of time, and the only way any one has found to do that in the context of a persistent world is through social engagement. In the context of an MMO world this either means large scale enforced PvP or large scale enforced PvE.

Your hypothetical player has a lifestyle which prevents them from being able to plan their time in pre scheduled blocks, which prevents them from being engaged with a large group. For the same reason, your hypothetical player is probably not able to attend formal dinner parties, join recreational sports leagues, take night classes, or do any number of other activities designed to engage large groups of people.

Single player and match based games have a business model typically predicated on selling boxes. They don't need your social engagement to keep you playing and paying a subscription for a long time, so the game design facilitates players who play in smaller, irregular chunks of time. Which fits neatly with your time stretched hypothetical player.

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 2:46pm by KarlHungis
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#67 Jun 24 2013 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
I always laugh when gamers rant about button mashing.

"TEH GAME WHEREZ YOU PUSH XYXYX BUT WAIT FOR 30 SECONDS BETWEEN PRESSES IS FINE, BUT ZOMG, PRESSING 1212314 IS TEH MASHINGS OF TEH BUTTONZ!!!"

Seriously. Go play on a Wii.


Smiley: lol Smiley: clap

Can you please give yourself rate-ups from me for this?
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#68 Jun 24 2013 at 2:35 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't care how many times I have to press a button. As long as I actually have to pay attention to what sequence I'm pressing them in. But yes some games do complain about carpal tunnel or being uncomfortable with too much action.
#69 Jun 24 2013 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
[quote=Seriha]

Why? It's not because they're anti-social, are horrible players, or don't have friends (who may not all be on in their split play times). Seriously, what is wrong with the option? I'd even argue it's a bit bait-and-switch if someone can go to cap via questing solo, only to have nothing more they can do than repeat the process on another class. Phat lewt might be the motivator to unite strangers, but even a matchmaking system doesn't solve the problems of getting people together (flood of DPS, no tanks or healers ring a bell?).

[quote]Are there examples of successful MMOs which have met the criteria you're looking for?

Not that I've found, but you've somewhat exemplified why. People are simply told to go elsewhere and we maybe get 1-3 MMOs a year if they don't flop for reasons not tied to this issue to really establish an endgame. A lot console games also have incredibly short lifespans for their price, of which people may turn to MMOs for cost efficient entertainment. I'd also argue it's a bit problematic that people who were playing MMOs 10 years or so ago are potentially the ones making them today, especially if coming at it from the hardcore mindset. So, it's nice Yoshi tries to look at things from the player and producer perspectives, but I would hope what I've mentioned crossed the mind of the latter. Fundamentally, more customers will mean more money. And while everyone has their own varied tastes and preferences, more money will allow them to produce more content. The MMO scene does not need another "raiders rule the roost" game. WoW does it. Rift does it. FFXI is gravitating toward it. TERA does it. GW2 does it. Unfortunately, there's a silent majority in all these games that are subject to the whims of vocal minorities who feel they're the most deserving of focus even if statistics show that a very small percentage of players have beaten a game's current top-tier content, let alone mid-tier. And arguably it's not because people aren't interested, it's because finding the bodies of he right jobs/classes at the right times are a perpetual cockblock, especially if you play at off-peak hours.

A game can still be multi-player without directly playing with or against others. Give the alternate progression strong ties to crafting without requiring raid drops and you can establish an economy that wouldn't be there if it's actually dungeon/raid drops > all. That way, if someone does get the chance to tag along in the big boy content, they have the means to not be total gimplets. It also strengthens the potential PUG pool. Let's also not forget the game boasts a lot of jobs/classes. Meaningful things to do for your off-jobs between the big content for your main isn't a bad thing, either. For the pathetically small fraction of players who "beat the game" by getting everything in a current patch/build and then ***** about having nothing to do really only have themselves to blame. They can find another game for a change.

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 1:49pm by Seriha


The MMO genre requires a time commitment to get everything out of it. If that guy can't put in that sort of time commitment, he shouldn't be playing the genre.

A big part of the MMO business model is to get players invested in the game and the relationships they make. That keeps players playing and paying, even content that they have already completed. It keeps players invested in the game even when they are waiting for new content. To do that, you need to promote group focused activities at endgame. If you allow everything to be accomplished solo, you are not promoting the longevity of the game which the genre is so reliant on. The people who are willing to invest long term into the game are left unfulfilled. And like it or not, those kind of players are way more appealing to the MMO developers than the player who can play very infrequently.
#70 Jun 24 2013 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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The only time I find a game to be a "button masher" is when the button you press is of no consequence, or that there is only one button that matters. It'd be as if THM was completely capable of doing 95% max damage by simply casting Blizzard I over and over. Or worse, WoW/Rift macros where you simply spam the one key over and over (I remember when Hunter was OP in BC and all you had to do was bind one skill to your scroll wheel and profit). That's not fun. That's not dynamic. I want choices and so far I've seen them in ARR combat, but I haven't seen the end of the game. I'd really want to experience the whole ride and that, for me, is worth a few months of subscription. Maybe in three months I'll find it "meh", but I've seen enough in beta to make me want to sub right now. Me, not you, not the other guy, but I'm willing to put dollars behind the game right now for the ride.

Is the game so innovative that I'm compelled to play? No. Is the combat so riveting that all other games pale in comparison? No. Is it fun, engaging, with a story worth investing some of my free time into? **** yes. That's all I want out of a game. I don't need it to be everything to me for it to be worth the time and effort.
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#71 Jun 24 2013 at 3:06 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
The only time I find a game to be a "button masher" is when the button you press is of no consequence, or that there is only one button that matters.


I agree.

That's why I really love FFXIV so far. The early levels are easy, but by the level 10 gladiator job quest, it's pretty obvious that you can't succeed in this game by mindlessly pressing buttons. Just during solo play, you've got to worry about your positioning and the mob's attacks, in addition to whichever attacks or abilities you will use every 2.5 secs.

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#72 Jun 24 2013 at 4:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Arjuncorpse wrote:
The MMO genre requires a time commitment to get everything out of it. If that guy can't put in that sort of time commitment, he shouldn't be playing the genre.

By this logic, a burger flipper shouldn't be able to buy a car a doctor would because a doctor makes way more money a year no matter how many hours the burger flipper actually works and saves. 3 hours, in my hypothetical, is 3 hours. "My time > Your time" is not conducive to social interaction. It's segregating. This isn't a physical sport where being a fatty makes you a detriment to your team. We're people sitting in front of our PCs or consoles clicking buttons and watching our screens. We pay the same sub fees. Getting something done in 30-60m isn't an unreasonable expectation. Demanding 3 consecutive hours every night, however, is pushing it.

Quote:
A big part of the MMO business model is to get players invested in the game and the relationships they make. That keeps players playing and paying, even content that they have already completed. It keeps players invested in the game even when they are waiting for new content. To do that, you need to promote group focused activities at endgame. If you allow everything to be accomplished solo, you are not promoting the longevity of the game which the genre is so reliant on. The people who are willing to invest long term into the game are left unfulfilled. And like it or not, those kind of players are way more appealing to the MMO developers than the player who can play very infrequently.

Again, there's nothing saying people won't make friends if they're like the second player. When I played XI, sure I did game talk, but there were also a lot of personal conversations that went on in private. Some friends I've even made here and talk with over AIM. You don't need Leroy Jenkins scenarios to bond to others with, or raids, or even being in a huge guild. The assumption that longevity can't be achieved if solo options are viable is just that, an assumption. Clapping your hands together and going, "Nope, can't be done!" under the pretext that one player is more important than another is a toxic perspective to be running with and part of what makes the strength of the genre its most glaring fault. I can sit here and say I'd rather not play with people like you and Karl because you're more keen on excluding potential players, but in the end you won't care because the lack of empathy is precisely why I'm disinterested in helping people such as yourself advance their own agendas and perpetuate the falsehood that MMOs aren't for everyone. These are evolving, expanding worlds. There's room. Stop being so concerned that someone you'll never play with might actually be competitive by doing what best suits their schedule.





Now, I know some people disliked the Magian system in XI, but at a skeletal level, it's basically something that could work to pull this off. Add a better layer of questing to it beyond, "A MOOGLE DID IT!" with piecemeal objectives an individual can tackle while avoiding **** phases like heavy metal plates or other unreasonable gil sinks and you have a winner.

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 6:42pm by Seriha
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#73 Jun 24 2013 at 5:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
The MMO genre requires a time commitment to get everything out of it. If that guy can't put in that sort of time commitment, he shouldn't be playing the genre.


Eh, not really...A more accurate statement would be, if that guy can't put in that sort of time commitment, he shouldn't expect to get the same experience out of the game as those who can. It's up to each individual player to determine whether or not they should be playing a game. Really, people should play whatever they find fun. But people should not expect that they are going to be able to experience all the same content only playing 3hrs a day in spurts as someone else playing for 3+ hours straight during peak times.

However, I also agree with the notion that there should be something for those people who can only play in spurts. FFXIVs FATE, Levequest (and Levehest/Guildleve or whatever it's called to some extent), Gathering and Crafting are good examples of such content. If PvP is engaging and accessible to people without L337 raid gear then endgame play could also be possible for Mr. Notta-Lotta-Time.

I also think that there should be other content for level cap players who don't have a lot of time. Grand Companies are a good way to introduce this content. Escort missions that traverse multiple zones and have unique events occur (bandits, breakdowns requiring crafter repairs, runaway Chocobo that you have to catch, etc...), outpost defense (defense structure build phase for crafters, waves of mobs, bosses, stuff breaking and needing repair, elites, NM boss) and other stuff I'm probably not thinking of. And really...EVERY game needs a survival mode. 1-8 players. Instanced arena. Waves until you wipe. You get rewarded with GC currency that can be used to purchase gear outright or materials needed to craft epic OMGWTFPWNBBQ gear that is comparable to what the raiders are sporting.

TL/DR - every play style/schedule can be accommodated. It's just up to game developers to think outside the 'turn every level capped player into a raid slave' box.
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#74 Jun 24 2013 at 5:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kashius1138 wrote:
Quote:
The MMO genre requires a time commitment to get everything out of it. If that guy can't put in that sort of time commitment, he shouldn't be playing the genre.


Eh, not really...A more accurate statement would be, if that guy can't put in that sort of time commitment, he shouldn't expect to get the same experience out of the game as those who can. It's up to each individual player to determine whether or not they should be playing a game. Really, people should play whatever they find fun. But people should not expect that they are going to be able to experience all the same content only playing 3hrs a day in spurts as someone else playing for 3+ hours straight during peak times.


Fair enough. To go with the burger flipper and doctor analogy, both guys can absolutely buy a car. but a burger flipper is not going to be buying a $80,000 luxury car and shouldn't be expecting to while a doctor can.

I didn't mean to imply there shouldn't be any content for the solo player or they shouldn't have their way of endgame progression. Just saying, the ultimate endgame content will have to be for groups. And as it is, solo players have content don't they? Crafting is solo. Spiritbonding/Melding materia can be done solo.

And Seriha, never did I say a guy with less time to play can't make friends or I am clapping my hands and saying they should be excluded. I probably didn't word it well, but my point was if they are expecting to get the full MMO experience, there will need to be some time commitment. I am not judging or excluding anyone. If they want to play on their own time and solo the whole game, go right ahead. It doesn't affect anyone else. You won't see or experience 100% of the game, but thats ok. Most people don't experience 100% of a MMO. I really am not concerned that someone else is going to be competitive. You seem to be approaching this discussion with a pre-built hostility towards anyone who is not going to support your PoV 100%
#75 Jun 24 2013 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
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#76 Jun 24 2013 at 5:41 PM Rating: Good
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TL/DR - every play style/schedule can be accommodated. It's just up to game developers to think outside the 'turn every level capped player into a raid slave' box.

Glad someone else gets it. Sometimes I feel alone amongst forum jockeys because the type of players I'm white knighting for aren't likely to be in forums extensively to begin with. Rare for a first post, heh.

Quote:
You seem to be approaching this discussion with a pre-built hostility towards anyone who is not going to support your PoV 100%

This isn't a new subject for me, and I fear I've seen it all. While things haven't quite devolved into "lern2play n00b" status, I've found it inevitably does when someone feels their precious snowflake status is being threatened by a dirty casual. I'll also disagree that seeing 100% of the game should be unlikely. Again, we're all paying to play. Do you rent a movie only to see 80% of it? Buy a large pizza to eat 2 slices and throw the rest away? Our games shouldn't be different here, but the less control an individual has on their progress, the further they creep away from 100% consumption. Some people may be okay with that. Personally, I have no interest in PvP. But we can't forget the game's core is the combat system, and with that comes gear to make yourself better. I also know fluff stuff like housing or collecting pets won't appeal to me, for a mix of no combat benefit and the concept of RPing largely being a pipe dream in the MMO sphere (because RP doesn't reward loot~) And again, I'll level the classes I'm interested in, and maybe all of them eventually, but as long as quests, FATEs, log books, and so on give EXP, capping is inevitable. Game Over? I'd hope not. Waiting 3+ months until something else comes along? I'd like to avoid that, too.

Quote:
Don't talk to me about heavy metal plates.

Or umbral marrows. Smiley: bah

Nay, ye must suffereth for thine compulsion for leetness! Smiley: disappointed

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 7:43pm by Seriha
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#77 Jun 24 2013 at 5:46 PM Rating: Decent
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I didn't mean to imply there shouldn't be any content for the solo player or they shouldn't have their way of endgame progression. Just saying, the ultimate endgame content will have to be for groups. And as it is, solo players have content don't they? Crafting is solo. Spiritbonding/Melding materia can be done solo.


Yea, I'm totally with you here. I would just like to see more interesting and engaging content for level capped players that a soloer, duo or handful of friends on limited time can do. I mentioned a couple ideas that would allow for some battle oriented content that wouldn't require a huge group. Basically everyone should feel like they can continue to grow their character once they are at the level cap. A person who never sees an endgame dungeon should be able to have fun, upgrade gear, get rich and participate in events.

Instead of the doctor and the burger flipper, I'd like to see it more like a private practitioner and the surgeon in a hospital. Both have avenues to get the $80k car. But maybe the surgeon can buy two in the same time that it takes the more independent dude to get his first.

I know jack **** about doctors and how that stuff actually works, but I hope you get my drift :)
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#78 Jun 24 2013 at 11:23 PM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:

Quote:
A big part of the MMO business model is to get players invested in the game and the relationships they make. That keeps players playing and paying, even content that they have already completed. It keeps players invested in the game even when they are waiting for new content. To do that, you need to promote group focused activities at endgame. If you allow everything to be accomplished solo, you are not promoting the longevity of the game which the genre is so reliant on. The people who are willing to invest long term into the game are left unfulfilled. And like it or not, those kind of players are way more appealing to the MMO developers than the player who can play very infrequently.

Again, there's nothing saying people won't make friends if they're like the second player.


Having friends isn't the same as being socially engaged in the game. I don't know why you think this is some kind of issue about casual players somehow being second class in the eyes of less casual players. I'm sure that S-E or any one else would love to have a casual player's 15 bucks a month as much or even more than they would like to have a more dedicated player's money. The issue is that they've found that over the long run they don't keep the casual player as easily and as constantly as they keep the dedicated player. Keep in mind when I say "dedicated player" I don't mean some one who plays more hours per week or is smarter or more skilled; I mean some one who is willing and able to plan their time around an MMO as opposed to playing an MMO around their existing schedule.

Quote:

When I played XI, sure I did game talk, but there were also a lot of personal conversations that went on in private. Some friends I've even made here and talk with over AIM. You don't need Leroy Jenkins scenarios to bond to others with, or raids, or even being in a huge guild. The assumption that longevity can't be achieved if solo options are viable is just that, an assumption.


Define "viable." No one is saying there shouldn't be solo content available. Every MMO worth its salt these days has solo content throughout the leveling curve and beyond. But if "viable" means "as rewarding as group content" then people aren't incentivized to push past the friction of doing that content, and if they're not doing that content they generally don't play the game as long. If you have data that shows otherwise, I'm sure that S-E would love to have it.

Now maybe you believe that's a Chicken and Egg situation and if some brave developer would just make this solo friendly end game utopia, they'd keep those players engaged and do just fine with it, but no one has managed to do it yet, and if you read Yoshi's comments he doesn't intend to be the first. And I would say, having just come from Guild Wars 2, that even developers who have committed to the "no pressure, no grind, solo all you like" mind set find themselves changing course quickly when they see their retention numbers after release. GW2 was almost universally praised, yet after the first few months the engagement level was dropping to an incredibly low level, so they reversed course and have been steadily playing up the role of large group play.

Quote:

Clapping your hands together and going, "Nope, can't be done!" under the pretext that one player is more important than another is a toxic perspective to be running with and part of what makes the strength of the genre its most glaring fault. I can sit here and say I'd rather not play with people like you and Karl because you're more keen on excluding potential players,


I'm keen on including everyone, but I'm not investing a hundred million dollars or more to make a AAA MMO. The people who are investing that kind of money want subscriptions, and they want them every month for years and years, and they believe that the way to do that is with social engagement via forced grouping to get the best carrots. Maybe they're wrong, but you're failing to consider that maybe they're right. Maybe they've actually studied this stuff and have some notion of the profile of customer that drives their business.

I'm inclined to believe Yoshi P, because as much as I have always been in favor of "casual friendly" gaming throughout the years, I've seen myself that when people are not engaged in some sort of group structure in an MMO, they tend to drift away. Even in games like UO where the rewards didn't require massive groups, if people didn't find a reason to be a part of a community within the game, they simply didn't last, because at the end of the day, and MMO tends to be repetitive, and has a lot of compromises to accommodate a large user base, so it can really measure up to a true single player game as a single player experience.

Quote:

but in the end you won't care because the lack of empathy is precisely why I'm disinterested in helping people such as yourself advance their own agendas and perpetuate the falsehood that MMOs aren't for everyone. These are evolving, expanding worlds. There's room. Stop being so concerned that someone you'll never play with might actually be competitive by doing what best suits their schedule.


You're imagining motivations that simply don't exist and then complaining about those phantom motivations.

Quote:
This isn't a new subject for me, and I fear I've seen it all. While things haven't quite devolved into "lern2play n00b" status, I've found it inevitably does when someone feels their precious snowflake status is being threatened by a dirty casual.


Confirmation bias. Before the conversation began you had already defined the motivation and arguments of any one who doesn't fall into line with you, so you see those motivations and arguments where they don't really exist. Which puts the rest of us in a bit of a pickle because we'd like to engage you in conversation, but aren't in a position to defend imaginary emotional or logical positions that we don't really hold.



Edited, Jun 25th 2013 1:32am by KarlHungis
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#79 Jun 25 2013 at 12:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Having friends isn't the same as being socially engaged in the game. I don't know why you think this is some kind of issue about casual players somehow being second class in the eyes of less casual players. I'm sure that S-E or any one else would love to have a casual player's 15 bucks a month as much or even more than they would like to have a more dedicated player's money. The issue is that they've found that over the long run they don't keep the casual player as easily and as constantly as they keep the dedicated player. Keep in mind when I say "dedicated player" I don't mean some one who plays more hours per week or is smarter or more skilled; I mean some one who is willing and able to plan their time around an MMO as opposed to playing an MMO around their existing schedule.

Any dev that prioritizes trying to make the game someone's life over making the game an escape are doing it wrong. I know people like to mock XI's disclaimer to not forget your friends, family, work, and so on, but when you start planning your life around a video game, that's exactly what you're doing. Sure, you'll occasionally hear stories about how someone met their spouse in a game, but every one of those, there's likely innumerable more tales of people being exploited, ridiculed, and ultimately bullied by their online peers. Social interaction isn't all the warm and fuzzy feelings utopia that forced grouping might imply.

Quote:
Define "viable." No one is saying there shouldn't be solo content available. Every MMO worth its salt these days has solo content throughout the leveling curve and beyond. But if "viable" means "as rewarding as group content" then people aren't incentivized to push past the friction of doing that content, and if they're not doing that content they generally don't play the game as long. If you have data that shows otherwise, I'm sure that S-E would love to have it.

Short answer? Speed. Group content should get you to the good stuff faster. That's it.

Quote:
Now maybe you believe that's a Chicken and Egg situation and if some brave developer would just make this solo friendly end game utopia, they'd keep those players engaged and do just fine with it, but no one has managed to do it yet, and if you read Yoshi's comments he doesn't intend to be the first. And I would say, having just come from Guild Wars 2, that even developers who have committed to the "no pressure, no grind, solo all you like" mind set find themselves changing course quickly when they see their retention numbers after release. GW2 was almost universally praised, yet after the first few months the engagement level was dropping to an incredibly low level, so they reversed course and have been steadily playing up the role of large group play.

Want to know I dropped GW2 a couple months after launch? The bait and switch. Nevermind my disappointment about the hype of dynamic events. You spend all this time leveling to 80, exploring the world, collecting WPs, seeing Vistas, doing skill challenges, and generally improving your character only to hit a wall. Want better gear? You better like running dungeons (and eventually Fractals) until you're blue in the face or run around in the mindless WvW zergs until you get enough badges to buy some of that stuff. Being able to buy/craft a full T5 set the moment you hit 80 wasn't the problem, it was nothing for the individual to do after. The endgame zones sucked. The events required too many people that weren't participating because there were no meaningful rewards for participating. Legendary weapons were also thoroughly asinine. So much grinding for so little.

This isn't to say their large-man content didn't need help, either. Being in a guild didn't mean terribly much. A lot of times it was just a private chat channel. In following updates since, some people seem to like bounties. Some seem to hate them, if for any reason, their guild isn't "big enough" to actually make the most of it. Member poaching is also something I hate to see, as smaller groups of friends can wind up fragmented because in order to do something, they have to part ways with their smaller group that might not mesh as well with the bigger for reasons like schedule constraints or personalities. Some XI players may recognize this more simply as their friend joining an endgame shell and suddenly they're forever unable to help or turn into a giant douche because they finally have access to Real Ultimate Power(tm) within the game world.

Quote:
You're imagining motivations that simply don't exist and then complaining about those phantom motivations.

I see, so terms like "welfare epics" and the long running feud between Casuals and Hardcores/Elitists has just been a figment of my imagination this past decade. I feel so much better now knowing that everyone out there on the internet is so nice and welcoming.

Quote:
Confirmation bias. Before the conversation began you had already defined the motivation and arguments of any one who doesn't fall into line with you, so you see those motivations and arguments where they don't really exist.

Yet it's okay to insist the only way these games will thrive is if they follow the one true path of forced grouping. Call me a selfish, entitled mother@#%^er for wanting both to be viable if it makes you feel better, but I'd rather not keep players down just because time and luck doesn't favor them. They're gonna quit anyway.... right?


Following up on my earlier mentioning of the Magian system, I'd like to say some games have come close, but then dropped the ball. The Magian system was generally synonymous with Abyssea, a set of add-ons a lot would feel "saved" FFXI from swirling down the drain. You had rewards that weren't tied solely to mob loot pools. You had gear you could upgrade via quests, or more swiftly through grouping up and taking out NMs. The downfall, here, was that Abyssea was a level cap transition from 75 to 90. There was no upgrading Empyrean armor to +3 or beyond. The game stymied back into the raid content like Voidwatch and Legion where getting your gear was once more hoping for a 1% drop and hoping others don't out-lot you on it. Nowadays, if you're a new player trying to get into Adoulin without those things, you're not going to get far. Solo progression is simply integral for those who aren't there at the release of content and miss the rush.

Rift also had promise with currency like Infinity Stones found from endgame zone events and certain quests/dailies. Problem here is Trion deemed it wise to limit the final products of this gear to be two tiers behind raider stuff. The difference in performance is maddeningly huge, on the levels of 5k or more DPS in a game where top-end DPS values hover between 14-16k depending on role. Not only that, but acquiring a set solo would take far longer than the raid counterparts. It just struck me as terribly skewed in favor of grouping. From there, I saw the guild I was in fold because fielding 10 and 20-man content just couldn't happen reliably with everyone having their own lives/schedules, as well as people getting poached by other guilds. Eventually, I sat back and wondered if I wanted to subject myself to a guild run by (college) kids with little RL obligations, to endure all the player politics that comes with player-run point systems and who deserves what from random drops where I had no hope of competing with those who simply played more because said systems inevitably favor attendance, not so much performance. The answer was no. "Well, you chose not to participate! You don't deserve stuff!" I chose to value my time. I chose to not subject myself to headaches in my entertainment. Again, I'll flip the bird to anyone who insists that the wrong choice, because I could assure you I was still out there being social within the game. But since I didn't "need" stuff from X to do "stuff" from Y, it was A-OK to tell me my character was no longer allowed to grow. Why play? Why sub? Why should I reward a dev for holding me back? That lack of carrot is precisely why they lost me and people like me. People will come and go. That's inevitable. And really, those who feel they're opinion worth more because they've played a year instead over someone else's six months holds no guarantee they know more or what's right for the game.

Options aren't the enemy. Lack of content is.

Edit: And just to elucidate more on the "I've seen it all..." aspect of this, there might be a lingering question, "What about those who enjoy the coordination and difficulty of large group content? What do they get out of it?" If the satisfaction of completing such content isn't enough, then I pose it is about having an edge in gear, and in turn, ego. Because if it genuinely is about difficulty, better gear will actually make the current content easier. Though, this is also where I say things like difficulty modes are cool, not because hard mode gives item X+1, but rather hard mode should cough up item X more frequently with the added twist of making encounters more difficult with new moves/mobs/mechanics. Let distinction come from titles, achievements, pets, or even costume pieces. In turn, if the continued response is that, "That's not enough for me..." Well, now you know how I feel from my side of the fence.

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 3:20am by Seriha
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#80 Jun 25 2013 at 7:17 AM Rating: Good
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Kashius1138 wrote:
[quote]I also think that there should be other content for level cap players who don't have a lot of time. Grand Companies are a good way to introduce this content. Escort missions that traverse multiple zones and have unique events occur (bandits, breakdowns requiring crafter repairs, runaway Chocobo that you have to catch, etc...), outpost defense (defense structure build phase for crafters, waves of mobs, bosses, stuff breaking and needing repair, elites, NM boss) and other stuff I'm probably not thinking of. And really...EVERY game needs a survival mode. 1-8 players. Instanced arena. Waves until you wipe. You get rewarded with GC currency that can be used to purchase gear outright or materials needed to craft epic OMGWTFPWNBBQ gear that is comparable to what the raiders are sporting.


There are some really fantastic ideas in this post. Especially the crafting stuff and survival mode ideas. I'd highly encourage you to post this in the stickied thread at the top or even on the beta forums. I'd love to see this implemented into the game.
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#81 Jun 25 2013 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
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Aasher wrote:
After a long time playing FFXI, which I loved dearly, I wasn't particularly surprised at the end result of their next-generation MMORPG; FFXIV 1.0. It was certain things -- like not being able to jump, like Gridania's exterior being designed like an actual grid -- that really spoke poorly of S-E's approach to the game. Being familiar with the company from years and years spent playing FFXI, and how inflexible they were about certain things, I could see where XIV was headed and I gladly cast off the franchise with the opinion that they got what they deserved.

Fast forward to 2013 and somehow Square has accomplished a miracle; they have regained my trust and my interest (for this game, at least). Reading posts like this, they are saying exactly what I wanted/needed to hear and, as such, have made me a pre-ordering customer.

In particular, coming from other games like Guild Wars 2, I couldn't help but notice that I was playing a single-player game in an online world. GW2 has its fun parts, but at one point it donned on me that I was very near to the level cap after only a short period of time...and not once had the game guided me into meaningful interaction with other players. I had my complaints about FFXI, but the one thing that kept me playing for as long as I did was the community.

I am very glad to see that they are focusing on community building, on immersion, and on the sense of accomplishment that comes from difficulty and strategy.


This is so true... So true.

If you only play by yourself at all times, what is there to keep you playing? It becomes like a single player game, where at best you play for a few months.

Add the community to the equation and all of a sudden you're excited to get online and interact with others, especially the friends you've made! The MMO producers that understand this point are the ones who at minimum create loyal fan bases... a la XI. It certainly never had the biggest community in the world, but those who played it tended to stick around for a long time. Hence, the most profitable FF ever.

I think Yoshi understands this, and I really believe this game offers the perfect mixture of casual play with the hardcore... I know this game is going to achieve great things.

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#82 Jun 25 2013 at 7:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Wow Seriha, it is scary how alike we think!! Everything I read from your posts are exactly how I feel! I just hope the developers have implemented ways for those of us who can't devote large chunks of time to devote our smaller chunks of time to something meaningful. There has been some really good suggestions already here, so I just hope for the best.
#83 Jun 25 2013 at 8:38 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
There are some really fantastic ideas in this post. Especially the crafting stuff and survival mode ideas. I'd highly encourage you to post this in the stickied thread at the top or even on the beta forums. I'd love to see this implemented into the game.


Thanks Bartel - I was wondering if anyone even reads my long *** posts, haha. For some strange reason though, I can't post on the beta forums anymore. I made 2 posts after the last beta weekend and now I can't reply to anything or start new threads. I didn't do anything to get myself banned so I'm pretty confuddled.

I'll post in the sticky thread though. And if you want to copy/paste/reformat my post and throw it on the beta boards, you're more than welcome to until I can get that issue resolved.
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#84 Jun 25 2013 at 8:39 AM Rating: Good
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Kashius1138 wrote:
Quote:
There are some really fantastic ideas in this post. Especially the crafting stuff and survival mode ideas. I'd highly encourage you to post this in the stickied thread at the top or even on the beta forums. I'd love to see this implemented into the game.


Thanks Bartel - I was wondering if anyone even reads my long *** posts, haha. For some strange reason though, I can't post on the beta forums anymore. I made 2 posts after the last beta weekend and now I can't reply to anything or start new threads. I didn't do anything to get myself banned so I'm pretty confuddled.

I'll post in the sticky thread though. And if you want to copy/paste/reformat my post and throw it on the beta boards, you're more than welcome to until I can get that issue resolved.


I will do that. You might want to see if you can contact a moderator on the beta forums, perhaps it was just accidental.
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#85 Jun 25 2013 at 8:48 AM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
Kashius1138 wrote:
Quote:
There are some really fantastic ideas in this post. Especially the crafting stuff and survival mode ideas. I'd highly encourage you to post this in the stickied thread at the top or even on the beta forums. I'd love to see this implemented into the game.


Thanks Bartel - I was wondering if anyone even reads my long *** posts, haha. For some strange reason though, I can't post on the beta forums anymore. I made 2 posts after the last beta weekend and now I can't reply to anything or start new threads. I didn't do anything to get myself banned so I'm pretty confuddled.

I'll post in the sticky thread though. And if you want to copy/paste/reformat my post and throw it on the beta boards, you're more than welcome to until I can get that issue resolved.


I will do that. You might want to see if you can contact a moderator on the beta forums, perhaps it was just accidental.


This is normal. They turn off forum posting within a day or two after each Beta weekend so they can go through as many of the posts as possible. Posting's turned back on once another Beta weekend starts up.
#86 Jun 25 2013 at 8:55 AM Rating: Good
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Makes sense, so they aren't constantly bombarded. I was just going to post it in the general discussion, but perhaps I'll wait and just let Kashius post when they open them back up in the proper feedback section.
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#87 Jun 25 2013 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Seriha wrote:
More to the topic of Yoshi's postings, I just hope he's mindful of the soloist/low-man endgame. He can say he understands that grouping is stressful, but that says nothing about not forcing it to progress your character come endgame. Doubly so if this group content demands large blocks of uninterrupted time. If the game can manage to keep more casual players from feeling like they're spinning their wheels and getting nowhere, then I'd call it a pretty significant step that other games have dropped the ball on for me.


How are you going to do end game without groups? I think at some point you're going to have to suck it up and join other people.


I think Yoshi already has a good handle on this in that Endgame will allow for the non-lead/support players to be able to still get rewards, by either doing FATEs, which allow you to fight alone, or with a party (alone you have a lot higher risk, and are treated worse by other players at the FATE). As well as low-man dungeon raids (though I haven't heard any of the requirements for any of the end dungeons, but it sounds like the two main ones will be full party).

As well, we will have Free Company rewards and benefits.

I personally know, as a HIGHLY obsessed player, but one who likes to play on my own terms, I spent a year in Sky with ZERO rewards.

Here is to hoping (at least for me) that my understanding of it is accurate. I don't need the same gear that people get from the towers, but something that is worthy.
#88 Jun 25 2013 at 9:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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magred14 wrote:
Wow Seriha, it is scary how alike we think!! Everything I read from your posts are exactly how I feel! I just hope the developers have implemented ways for those of us who can't devote large chunks of time to devote our smaller chunks of time to something meaningful. There has been some really good suggestions already here, so I just hope for the best.

Sometimes I fear I think too much. In the end, I classify myself a hardcore casual. A bit of a contradiction there, I know, but in my pursuits of character progression, I try to be mindful of what others can and can't do. I just want people to have fun without putting down others and a game's content will directly influence how its players behave. Yes, I know I get colorful at points, but given the people I've fought with in the past, sometimes the only language they speak is mired in condescension. You can try to limit access by rarity or difficulty, but in my mind as an artist and someone who likes to create things, when I share them with others, I want others to see it. And I feel like that's too often lost in the MMO genre with people being okay that sub-30% of a game's population sees a certain boss, finishes a specific quest-line, or whatever where the only reason it isn't done is beyond the individual's control.


Kashius1138 wrote:
Quote:
There are some really fantastic ideas in this post. Especially the crafting stuff and survival mode ideas. I'd highly encourage you to post this in the stickied thread at the top or even on the beta forums. I'd love to see this implemented into the game.


Thanks Bartel - I was wondering if anyone even reads my long *** posts, haha. For some strange reason though, I can't post on the beta forums anymore. I made 2 posts after the last beta weekend and now I can't reply to anything or start new threads. I didn't do anything to get myself banned so I'm pretty confuddled.

As someone else who can lose themselves to long-winded rambling, I've read it, as I hope you noticed to my nod of someone "getting it". The content can exist, it's just a matter of devs making it and some players letting go of old, archaic notions of what MMOs are and aren't. And even if you're literally playing alone, the game is still more than single-player with the varieties of chat channels or even simple things like a passer-by saving your **** or you doing the same for someone else. You don't even have to say anything to each other after, as a simple action can snowball to influence others.
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#89 Jun 25 2013 at 11:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Transmigration wrote:
wcloudxkumo wrote:


Quote:

Jump not being essential for clearing content


Thank god.



Why?


Because it's retarded to have jump being essential to the game design when the game isn't a platformer? The only reason people wanted jump was because they wanted to see themselves jump and "Jump over obstacles rather than running around". He said from the get go jumping and swimming (if implemented) will never be essential to combat or content.

This is the one decision of his I respect.
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#90 Jun 25 2013 at 11:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:
Again, we're all paying to play. Do you rent a movie only to see 80% of it?
Do you stand in line to see a movie, and when you get to the counter demand someone else pay for the ticket, provide snacks, lead you to your seat, and explain the movie to you while you make noise and are a general pain in the *** to everyone around you? Because I bet what I just said happens more in MMOs than the "hospitable/prepared client" types.
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#91 Jun 25 2013 at 11:49 AM Rating: Good
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Again, we're all paying to play. Do you rent a movie only to see 80% of it?


Having lofty content that is unreachable for casual players is an important draw of MMOs. I never once thought "Yeah, I should get a Relic" in FFXI. I didn't have the time or commitment. But I didn't stomp my feet and hold my breath until Tanaka made it easy, I went on with my life.
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#92 Jun 25 2013 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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Having lofty content that is unreachable for casual players is an important draw of MMOs. I never once thought "Yeah, I should get a Relic" in FFXI. I didn't have the time or commitment. But I didn't stomp my feet and hold my breath until Tanaka made it easy, I went on with my life.


If two players play for 20 hours a week but player x strings those 20 hours together and player y has to space those 20 hours in bits and pieces does that make player x superior to player y? I don't think anyone is asking for anything free, I want to work at achieving stuff just as much as the next person, but I hope I can work at it with the time that I have.

I also hope there is a place for small group stuff in the end game, I personally really enjoy the ability to communicate in a more close knit setting and just do not particularly enjoy being a face in the crowd while the select two people in the group are the only ones allowed talk or else it becomes a communication nightmare, and understandably so. I think it would be awesome to be able to lan it up with a couple friends and actually tackle high end stuff. Anyways now I am just day dreaming about my favorite gaming experiences!
#93Theonehio, Posted: Jun 25 2013 at 12:27 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yep, we all "pay the same price" but why is that new MMOs are generally sucking? The whole "everyone is equal" and "access to everything by everyone" makes the MMO boring as **** quick and unbalanced as ****. The reason people liked/hated CoP was because of level caps, but also it took work to unlock certain end-game content, like any FF game, but MMOs these days? Everything is there for you after you run in a straight line of quests that mean nothing but EXP and Gil.
#94 Jun 25 2013 at 3:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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It sounds bad to say, but there should be a separation of Casual and "hardcore" content and casual players shouldn't have immediate access or even quick access to that content. Striving for something out of reach is one of the biggest draws of an MMO, joining an MMO to play 3 hours a week shouldn't get you the same benefits in any reality.


I think it is going a little far to say that there should be separate content that people can't access. Let's compare two players in the same guild.

Let's say on average it takes...10 total runs to farm gear (8 pieces) from a few T1 instances that will put you in a position to realistically do well in a T2. Each run takes a group of organized players about 3-5 hrs to do.

Player 1 does 12 (unlucky), 1 a day - 3x a week, and has now spent about 60hrs over 4wks getting gear. It's the fastest most efficient way to hit the goal amd Player 1 is able to block off those 3-5hrs at a time to get it done. Let's go ahead and include prep time of 1hr per run. Total of ~72hrs over 4 weeks (let's call that a month). Player 1 spent, on average, around 18hrs/week or just over 2.5hrs a day playing the game to achieve this goal. Bam. Player 1 is hardcore - Player 1 ******* rocks.

Player 2 logs in 3x a week and one night during the weekend. Most of the time they can get on for 1-2hrs and on the weekend night can sometimes marathon for around 5hrs, average 3. They can only manage a single T1 instance run a month. Player 2 plays an average of around 7hrs/week or 1hr/day. However, to get 8 pieces that's 10 runs at 1 run a month if they're lucky. Should it take Player 2, who is playing half as much on average as Player 1, 10x as long to achieve the same goal?

Instead, Player 2 should have other options. Escorts, outpost defense, survival, etc...P2 can do this stuff in the limited time they are usually on. The rewards (GC Seals for FFXIV) allow them to get a piece, that isn't quite the T1 set but certainly good enough for the T2 instance, once every 1-2 weeks (depending on difficulty attempted, success rates and luck). So now, instead of waiting a **** near a year (and possibly losing interest due to lack of things to do) for their 8 pieces of gear, player 2 can gear up and run the T2 in a little under 3 months if they get lucky on the couple raids they can manage to run in the 12 week span.

2-3x as long seems way more reasonable than 10x as long. Especially considering the player is playing about half as much. As long as the goal is attainable and in a reasonable amount of time people will continue to play instead of saying, ********** this. I'll never get to participate in endgame." and canceling...
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#95 Jun 25 2013 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Quote:
Again, we're all paying to play. Do you rent a movie only to see 80% of it?


Having lofty content that is unreachable for casual players is an important draw of MMOs. I never once thought "Yeah, I should get a Relic" in FFXI. I didn't have the time or commitment. But I didn't stomp my feet and hold my breath until Tanaka made it easy, I went on with my life.


Yep, we all "pay the same price" but why is that new MMOs are generally sucking? The whole "everyone is equal" and "access to everything by everyone" makes the MMO boring as @#%^ quick and unbalanced as ****. The reason people liked/hated CoP was because of level caps, but also it took work to unlock certain end-game content, like any FF game, but MMOs these days? Everything is there for you after you run in a straight line of quests that mean nothing but EXP and Gil.


No, and it's completely asinine to think so. Do you know why they fail? They have wonky combat systems, miniscule or flat out uninteresting endgame activities, a story you can't get into, a division of the playerbase because of factions (which results in unbalanced server sizes and eliminates a lot of chances of finding people to play with), the game runs poorly on the majority of the systems, and/or the look of the game itself is just dull. Rift had a lot of things going right, except the story's really bleh, the engine they use makes combat floaty and not as responsive as it could be, and their initial pacing of endgame fights were horrendous (second boss of a raid instance being harder than any other in there is very poor judgement). SWTOR.... had story going for it and that's it.

People hated CoP because the missions were level capped for no reason outside of an artificial stretching out of content. They tried to pass it off as a "side along" story to RoZ.... except CoP came afterwards so that doesn't really work. Mission difficulty is a moot point as there were items that could be used to eliminate any thought process needed if players wished (pre-Tenzen BCNMs that is). Level capped meant you *NEEDED* find a group, which meant seeking in Jueno forever to find people, which meant hoping they were on the right step and weren't just assuming they could enter the BCNM, etc. The entire structure from the fetch quests sending you all across the world and numerous and pointless "WAIT UNTIL JP MIDNIGHT FOR GREAT BARANSU!" made the entire story not worth going after for the populace no matter how great Rajas Ring was or how good the story is (which I personally don't find all that great compared to WotG). Rise of Zilart had some running around but it was nowhere near the sheer amount of wasted time you spent on getting around just to see "Cutscene #317" that's barely 45 seconds long (not to mention RoZ's points of interest for missions were always near telepoints or outpost warps).

"Look! We sent you to Carpenter's Landing so you ... can.... notice how badly designed of a zone it is and no one will ever want to level here... or really Miseraux Coast... or Lufaise Meadows.... But hey! Here's some missions to send you to go through Movalpolis..... still terrible to try to group in but at least the music's catchy! You know what, just go back to Sky and kill weapons because it'll be faster!" By putting every single zone (with the exception of Carpenter's Landing, Bibiki Bay, and Purgonorgo Isle) behind mission gates it ruined any chance of appealing to the players and all of those zones' potential were wasted. They learned their lesson well when it came to ToAU and everything except for Salvage only required Mog Locker access.

People didn't do it because it wasn't personally worth their time. Sea? Gorgets could be low manned in a group at the time, the weapons from the jailors were really bad, and only a few of the class neck/torques were worth it. Limbus was the only reason to ever bother actually striving for Sea access and that's really sad. And that's not even going into the whole Absolute Flustercuck debacle...

Theonehio wrote:
It sounds bad to say, but there should be a separation of Casual and "hardcore" content and casual players shouldn't have immediate access or even quick access to that content. Striving for something out of reach is one of the biggest draws of an MMO, joining an MMO to play 3 hours a week shouldn't get you the same benefits in any reality.


Yeah, no.

Again, completely asinine.

I play an MMO going after goals I can achieve to have fun, not strive for something I'm never going to get. I sure as **** didn't play FFXI so I could pine away wistfully while knowing I'm never going to get a Kogarasumaru on my SAM and to suggest I did so is idiotic, stupid, and ignorant. I played because I had friends I enjoyed playing with and we did what we could. If we couldn't get it ourselves and it wasn't something we could easily PUG with a few people we put it out of our heads because the goals weren't realistic and it in no way somehow mysteriously became that which we played for hoping it would fall into our lap.



Edited, Jun 25th 2013 7:00pm by Viertel
#96 Jun 25 2013 at 9:01 PM Rating: Good
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magred14 wrote:
I just hope the developers have implemented ways for those of us who can't devote large chunks of time to devote our smaller chunks of time to something meaningful.

I think the key to this ultimately lies with the player, and not the developers. A player in that situation decides on what constitutes "something meaningful".

I fall into the camp of a player with limited playing time. Even when I was a bachelor during my early days in FFXI, I didn't feel like it was right for me to commit sufficient playing time to do all of the end game activities and reap the rewards associated with it. Now that I have a wife, a toddler son and another baby on the way, I definitely don't have that kind of time. I knew with FFXI that there were certain kinds of end game content I was never going to experience, and I'm sure that will be the case with FFXIV. And I'm fine with that. To me, a meaningful accomplishment was probably something mundane and trivial to those who lived and breathed end game content on a regular basis.
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#97 Jun 25 2013 at 9:34 PM Rating: Good
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svlyons wrote:
magred14 wrote:
I just hope the developers have implemented ways for those of us who can't devote large chunks of time to devote our smaller chunks of time to something meaningful.

I think the key to this ultimately lies with the player, and not the developers. A player in that situation decides on what constitutes "something meaningful".

I fall into the camp of a player with limited playing time. Even when I was a bachelor during my early days in FFXI, I didn't feel like it was right for me to commit sufficient playing time to do all of the end game activities and reap the rewards associated with it. Now that I have a wife, a toddler son and another baby on the way, I definitely don't have that kind of time. I knew with FFXI that there were certain kinds of end game content I was never going to experience, and I'm sure that will be the case with FFXIV. And I'm fine with that. To me, a meaningful accomplishment was probably something mundane and trivial to those who lived and breathed end game content on a regular basis.



I'm in the same boat, I just want to have content to experience if its not end game, then something else.

The reason why FFXI had longevity for me was because things could be done solo albeit at a very slow pace. I never reached end game, but I did reach high enough level to see a lot of content I didn't get to see.

In short, because the world was so good(and there were timesinks), I didn't feel bad not getting to the end.

I soloed the Shadowlord, most AF NMs and other challenging things and it was fun.

If 2.0 can allow me to do that(like eventually solo instances) that would be OK!

Or if I can farm Gil, or get lucky with NM drops ( if and when they implement open world NMs) then that's enough for me too.

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Ironically like the other poster even though I'm causal I'm occasionally hardcore and if the duty finder works, I'll probably actually be raiding quite a bit, at least at the beginning.
#98 Jun 27 2013 at 4:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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A lot of interesting descriptions of hypothetical people. ;)

As a hardcore-gamer-turned-casual by family life, I can say that the single biggest incentive to continue playing at Endgame is having great friends online.

As many stated, gear and accomplishments (like the old Relic from FFXI) isn't even really on my radar. Carving out a whole weekend evening for an endgame Event (which requires a ton of groundwork to go smoothly) is not because I want something, it's just because I want to see the content and enjoy it with friends.

Luckily, the type of friends I have understand family limitations and really go out of their way to accommodate us casuals. The most hardcore players I know have everything they want anyway, and get the most satisfaction from helping old friends with less time to dedicate to the game.

It's all about the friends.
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