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**** you RMTFollow

#1 Jun 23 2013 at 9:35 PM Rating: Good
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First off, take a look at my only level 50 job in the character bio below...

Today I just read the news (from the live letter last week) that functionally fishing is being turned into a casual job, and it won't really net much value any longer... Needless to say this saddens me.

This is a classic example of a small group of the population (RMTs) ruining it for the rest of us.

Fishing is/has always been one of my favorite features of an MMO... I loved catching my own fish so I could use them in recipes. Now it looks like it's possible they could get rid of that because of the **** bots.

I just wish there could be a way to eliminate bots rather than eliminate fishing as a full fledged job Smiley: glare

Edit: I want to be clear, I'm not upset with SE about this... I understand the issues they face. I am 100% upset that RMT can ruin a great and enjoyable portion of gameplay for everyone.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2013 11:59pm by Parathyroid
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#2 Jun 23 2013 at 9:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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The thing with bots, is they are pretty sophisticated. They can mimic any action. The only way they could really combat botting in fishing would be to assign fishing pools everywhere (like WoW does for fish schools). Requiring travel to find fishing spots, much similar to the other gathering professions (and in a way similar to real fishing).

The issue at hand ultimately lies with RMT. As much as I hate it, there is nothing any one company can do to prevent it. Even if you're not willing to spend a dime on in-game currency, someone else ultimately will. Until you completely eradicate that demand, there will always be someone willing to supply, and the problem will continue to perpetuate itself.
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#3 Jun 23 2013 at 9:59 PM Rating: Good
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Parathyroid wrote:
First off, take a look at my only level 50 job in the character bio below...

Today I just read the news (from the live letter last week) that functionally fishing is being turned into a casual job, and it won't really net much value any longer... Needless to say this saddens me.

This is a classic example of a small group of the population (RMTs) ruining it for the rest of us.

Fishing is/has always been one of my favorite features of an MMO... I loved catching my own fish so I could use them in recipes. Now it looks like it's possible they could get rid of that because of the **** bots.

I just wish there could be a way to eliminate bots rather than eliminate fishing as a full fledged job Smiley: glare


I hear what your saying. I agree. But we have to live with it :(

In any case it's used for crafting. What he did say was that he didn't want to put systems, mini games, or timers in place that would hinder players in order to combat RMT. So in light of that the NPC value of these fish will have little value; and it would be used in crafting (partially) but it's more of a job where you can win contests for the biggest fish and stuff; and get gems/crafting mats.

You will NEVER eliminate bots. I don't care what company it is. To do this you have to swing a ban hammer so wide and design the game in such a restrictive manner that it would be sh*t to play.

Just like there's always a group of people that want to wag around there e-peens and get things done first, the fastest and have the most of whatever they can.

EDIT and here almost the same thing got posted while I was typing. Agree with you Desmar

Edited, Jun 23rd 2013 9:03pm by Elionara
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#4 Jun 23 2013 at 10:01 PM Rating: Decent
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desmar wrote:
The thing with bots, is they are pretty sophisticated. They can mimic any action. The only way they could really combat botting in fishing would be to assign fishing pools everywhere (like WoW does for fish schools). Requiring travel to find fishing spots, much similar to the other gathering professions (and in a way similar to real fishing).

The issue at hand ultimately lies with RMT. As much as I hate it, there is nothing any one company can do to prevent it. Even if you're not willing to spend a dime on in-game currency, someone else ultimately will. Until you completely eradicate that demand, there will always be someone willing to supply, and the problem will continue to perpetuate itself.


I wonder what would happen if they made it so all fish could only be used for personal crafting? That might go some way to eliminate the issue?

Obviously the RMT could just use the fish for other crafting, however it would make it much more difficult for them than if they could sell the fish for instance.

Elionara wrote:
In any case it's used for crafting. What he did say was that he didn't want to put systems, mini games, or timers in place that would hinder players in order to combat RMT. So in light of that the NPC value of these fish will have little value; and it would be used in crafting (partially) but it's more of a job where you can win contests for the biggest fish and stuff; and get gems/crafting mats.


I would be entirely content if they made fishing mostly for personal crafting... I just hope it doesn't become a minigame a la Golden Saucer. I hope it still levels up etc.

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 12:05am by Parathyroid
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#5 Jun 23 2013 at 10:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Sadly not much that can be done about it. RMT always find a way to ruin the fun for others... But the problem is not the RMT though, it's the kids crying for mommy and daddy's wallet, and those who believe they need to best "anything" right now over actually earning it.

EDIT:;:; Rather than simplifying fishing, wouldn't making it more complex and random when reeling hinder and RMT from setting up BOT?

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 12:06am by Demonadrastos
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#6 Jun 23 2013 at 10:08 PM Rating: Good
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Demonadrastos wrote:
Sadly not much that can be done about it. RMT always find a way to ruin the fun for others... But the problem is not the RMT though, it's the kids crying for mommy and daddy's wallet, and those who believe they need to best "anything" right now over actually earning it.


The part I don't get is why fishing is getting singled out?

I know for a fact there are leveling bots, crafting bots, mining bots, etc... All eliminating fishing as a useful job will do it increase the prevalence of other types of bots.

I suppose it's too early to say though, we don't even know what their true intentions are for fishing. It certainly isn't looking good though Smiley: frown
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#7 Jun 23 2013 at 10:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Because of all those possibilities, which seems the easiest to BOT, that doesn't require a lot of running around or material gathering?
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#8 Jun 23 2013 at 11:14 PM Rating: Good
Demonadrastos wrote:
Because of all those possibilities, which seems the easiest to BOT, that doesn't require a lot of running around or material gathering?


To somewhat needlessly expand on this...

Gather bots do exist, but they are harder to configure, easier to defeat, and in essence require more resources. One of the older methods used to be to multibox and monopolize multiple points of high value. But then that's got a higher payout for value, and again, it's easy to defeat by simply having spawn points shift irregularly. Also, fishing tends to be something that requires very little materials for reward. All you need is a rod in some games, rod and bait in others, then just set it and forget it.

It's a low work, high yield craft. It's independent of market unless the cost of rod and bait exceed NPC value earned, which is rarely the case.

I love fishing too, it's normally one of the more relaxing items to take up, but these days if I fish in games, it's recreation or when I am bored. When I need money, it's farming/gathering/crafting depending on game.

I feel your pain too, but the reality is there is no way to win. IPs can be faked. You can't ban based on name because that can be falsified. You can't ban on behavior because bots can easily be monitored by one person and can stall a GM with a few awkward answers before the live person can get to the keys and properly respond. And if you make the fishing mini-game insanely complex, you ruin the fun aspect of doing it for the player. In the end, just accept it or expect it to be removed.

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 1:14am by Pawkeshup
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#9 Jun 23 2013 at 11:44 PM Rating: Good
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Not too complex, just even a small amount if possible. I really enjoyed the fishing in FFXI, especially the left/right fighting style when reeling in that fish or monster(Angel Skin anyone?). However, the Fishing in FFXI, though the randomness of the fight depending on the lvl of the bite, enjoyable, not really all that complex. Still one of my favorite pass times. Most MMO's take a very simplistic route when they have fishing, and becomes very boring. Hopefully this isn't the case.

EDIT:;:; I actually have my eye on the F2P MMO(ish) Fishing Hero. Sadly I was too late to join/check out the beta.

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 1:46am by Demonadrastos
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#10 Jun 23 2013 at 11:52 PM Rating: Good
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Breath of Fire III & IV had the most amazing fishing mini-games. I would love to see that implemented into a game. You actually had to work for and play your catch. Which would be almost impossible to bot.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2013 10:52pm by desmar
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#11 Jun 23 2013 at 11:53 PM Rating: Good
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I like the idea of fishing for personal crafting. Make catches untradable and unsellable and can only be used by you.
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#12 Jun 24 2013 at 12:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Zelda:OOT/TP fishing Smiley: inlove
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#13 Jun 24 2013 at 12:21 AM Rating: Decent
Demonadrastos wrote:
Not too complex, just even a small amount if possible. I really enjoyed the fishing in FFXI, especially the left/right fighting style when reeling in that fish or monster(Angel Skin anyone?). However, the Fishing in FFXI, though the randomness of the fight depending on the lvl of the bite, enjoyable, not really all that complex. Still one of my favorite pass times. Most MMO's take a very simplistic route when they have fishing, and becomes very boring. Hopefully this isn't the case.

EDIT:;:; I actually have my eye on the F2P MMO(ish) Fishing Hero. Sadly I was too late to join/check out the beta.

FFXI is one of the most heavily fish-botted games I've seen, mainly because it is a simple mini-game.

And to stop a bot, it would need visual cues that are not something a bot would understand. So, basically Captas of some sense. It would have to display a word scramble or an image that you'd need to respond to. That's it. That's the only, 100% sure way to stop a bot... for now. I'm sure there will be a way to defeat those methods soon enough.

desmar wrote:
Breath of Fire III & IV had the most amazing fishing mini-games. I would love to see that implemented into a game. You actually had to work for and play your catch. Which would be almost impossible to bot.


So, it typed random phrases on the screen that you had to input? No? Oh it's this:

Alright, let me break down how a bot would work in this case.

All the mobs would have to have their positions relayed to the client, so those positions would then be available as data for the bot, it would then move the lure to the mob. Once on the line, all the fishing data would, again, be client-side, so then it's just a matter of getting the correct responses to the situation.

It would actually be easier to bot that than you think.

Veagan wrote:
I like the idea of fishing for personal crafting. Make catches untradable and unsellable and can only be used by you.

Just... no.
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#14 Jun 24 2013 at 12:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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There will always be people who see no problem in taking the shortcuts. It's about the Prize, not the experience for them, and in their twisted little world, they achieved as much as the person next to them who did everything by hand. They will crow, and boast of their prowess in the hopes that the "how" is buried under the flow of BS and the shine of their so-called victory.

It's certainly not limited to Games, but often times at least better hidden under the veneer of civility we wear in the real world... a remnant of that part of the brain that assesses everything in range, and the probability of being attacked and consumed by it in a confrontation. Someone's actions when they aren't thinking of being observed are certainly a good barometer of a person's character. (or lack thereof)

I like to think it's the same sort of person whom, in their childhoods, truly believed it when they were told that everyone was special and deserved everything their heart desires.

As to solving the problem...Unless you can stand over the offender like a crazed nun with a ruler, walloping their knuckles... Human nature will always provide SOMEONE who finds the "easy" way.

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 3:12am by OtosanOokami
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#15 Jun 24 2013 at 4:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:

Veagan wrote:
I like the idea of fishing for personal crafting. Make catches untradable and unsellable and can only be used by you.

Just... no.


Why not ? Right now the way it is its worse than only keeping it yourself. Its all trash and worthless , giving cooks the option to fish to make food sounds great to me. This way not everyone has to do it and if you wanna just fish than its pretty much the same system they have now just trash the fish.
#16 Jun 24 2013 at 6:03 AM Rating: Good
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What doesn't make sense is that people were botting mining WAY more. you would see 15-20 bots running the same route in Iron Lake.. Botters gonna bot.
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#17 Jun 24 2013 at 6:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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If fishing is reduced to a collection of achievements for biggest catch-and-release, I'll be disappointed. I used to fish a lot in XIV and my wife would make sushi and sell it, it was a nice family business and I was hoping we could do something similar together in ARR.

I will miss being able to start fishing pretty much anywhere when I have a few minutes to kill waiting for a group or whatever. And the danger of fishing something that can kill you. And most of all, seeing someone fish a pugil in SSG and saving their bacon with a quick invite to party, Flash + Escape.

I hope the system they come up with will allow for cool stories to remember by years later.
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#18 Jun 24 2013 at 6:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
What doesn't make sense is that people were botting mining WAY more. you would see 15-20 bots running the same route in Iron Lake.. Botters gonna bot.


This. I can see mining/logging bots being a HUGE problem in this game. The big problem is that the mining nodes (at least the starter ones) are all clumped insanely close together. In Uldah, you can make a loop of 4 nodes within a 30 yalm radius. With 6 attempts per node, requiring no minigame at all, I think this is going to be a pretty substantial problem. The fact that you can get 5-6 of an item per node means the market is going to be crazy saturated with shards/copper ore/etc. Maybe it will be so bad that the bots just won't be able to make any money, but I have a feeling the mining bots will just fill up there inventory, dump it off to a crafting bot, who will then turn all that copper ore into the most profitable items and sell those en masse. Fishing was definitely not the only botting problem, and I'm not sure that taking it out of RMT's radar will really make any kind of difference.
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#19 Jun 24 2013 at 6:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:
Demonadrastos wrote:
Because of all those possibilities, which seems the easiest to BOT, that doesn't require a lot of running around or material gathering?


To somewhat needlessly expand on this...

Gather bots do exist, but they are harder to configure, easier to defeat, and in essence require more resources. One of the older methods used to be to multibox and monopolize multiple points of high value. But then that's got a higher payout for value, and again, it's easy to defeat by simply having spawn points shift irregularly. Also, fishing tends to be something that requires very little materials for reward. All you need is a rod in some games, rod and bait in others, then just set it and forget it.

It's a low work, high yield craft. It's independent of market unless the cost of rod and bait exceed NPC value earned, which is rarely the case.

I love fishing too, it's normally one of the more relaxing items to take up, but these days if I fish in games, it's recreation or when I am bored. When I need money, it's farming/gathering/crafting depending on game.

I feel your pain too, but the reality is there is no way to win. IPs can be faked. You can't ban based on name because that can be falsified. You can't ban on behavior because bots can easily be monitored by one person and can stall a GM with a few awkward answers before the live person can get to the keys and properly respond. And if you make the fishing mini-game insanely complex, you ruin the fun aspect of doing it for the player. In the end, just accept it or expect it to be removed.

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 1:14am by Pawkeshup



To your last point, it's not in my nature to "accept" anything. If there is a problem I prefer to think of ways it can be solved. (I do however accept that I have no control over this, and if SE says it's gone, it's gone.)

How about making fishing like gathering? Require us to shift locations, perhaps give us 10 gathering opportunities rather than ~3 as in the other gathering jobs.
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#20 Jun 24 2013 at 6:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Veagan wrote:
I like the idea of fishing for personal crafting. Make catches untradable and unsellable and can only be used by you.


Perhaps (almost certainly futilely) I'll suggest this on the beta forums.
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#21 Jun 24 2013 at 6:55 AM Rating: Decent
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vegan wrote:
I like the idea of fishing for personal crafting. Make catches untradable and unsellable and can only be used by you.


Pawkeshup wrote:
Just... no.


This is not meant to condescend or be argumentative, I legitimately am curious as to your reasoning here... after all if I am to suggest it on the beta forums I need to understand the opposing argument.

How can, fishing = useless job which is just done for leisure be > than fishing = job just used for personal crafting?

Sorry for the triple post... I tried to fix it, didn't realize I can't delete a post.

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 8:58am by Parathyroid
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#22 Jun 24 2013 at 6:55 AM Rating: Good
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Parathyroid wrote:
Veagan wrote:
I like the idea of fishing for personal crafting. Make catches untradable and unsellable and can only be used by you.


Perhaps (almost certainly futilely) I'll suggest this on the beta forums.


They'll never change something they don't get feedback for, so I'd encourage you to. However, I think I'd also encourage to wait until phase 4 when we can actually attempt fishing and see what it's like to get an idea of it. Who knows, it could still be fun as is.
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#23 Jun 24 2013 at 7:00 AM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
Parathyroid wrote:
Veagan wrote:
I like the idea of fishing for personal crafting. Make catches untradable and unsellable and can only be used by you.


Perhaps (almost certainly futilely) I'll suggest this on the beta forums.


They'll never change something they don't get feedback for, so I'd encourage you to. However, I think I'd also encourage to wait until phase 4 when we can actually attempt fishing and see what it's like to get an idea of it. Who knows, it could still be fun as is.


I agree on all accounts, in fact I have no doubt that if the fishing game is analyzed by itself... reward independent, it will be fun and relaxing. However, much of fishings reward for me was using it as a way to acquire wealth (hey whataya know, the RMT had the same idea!)
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#24 Jun 24 2013 at 8:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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RMT is big business. PS3 don't think its hackable like PC. As long as there are hackers, there will be some sort of RMT

Its sad.
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#25 Jun 24 2013 at 8:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Square should just sell gil too. It's like the drug debate...if you legalize it you can control it, tax it, make money on it..and eliminate the bad things folks are doing in order to obtain it.

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 10:30am by electromagnet83
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#26 Jun 24 2013 at 8:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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They'd never sell it though - they're against the whole pay to win dynamic of the modern age.
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