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#52 Jun 25 2013 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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Thank you for the reply. I guess I'll go Lala then. Only because the difference could get larger with expansions of levels etc.

No that's right what I tried to say in post #34. The difference between races stays exactly the same all the way to 50,
and thus becomes increasingly less significant (relative to the total amount of points you gain via leveling, gear stats
and materia). In the beginning, even a difference of 5 points appears "large" in comparison to the 15 point average
per stat at level 1. At level 50, average stats are in the several hundreds, and considering they only partially determine
damage output (the main contributors being weapon power and ability/spell potency), 5 points becomes nothing more
than the **** of a mosquito. Well, provided the latter is an understandable expression in English, that is.

Quote:
I honestly didn't even use my points for the longest time, and when I did... I honestly can't say as I saw really much difference. I think because it is so small (a point a level), you wouldn't really even notice it much anyway until you've invested enough of your points in. (...) I'm a solid meh.


I took the liberty to use the free point reset on my LV 50s that came with beta phase 3 to test the effect of going
extreme by pushing literally every single allocation point into a single stat and then comparing results before and
after allocation. The magical barrier is 10%. In no case where you allocate stats in a "sensible" way (that is, e.g.
STR for melee and INT for attack-casters), the increase of total stats (that is, base stats @50 plus the combined
stats of good gear available at that level) is bigger than 10%. Now, the point is that due to way final action potency
is calculated, this does NOT translate into a 10% increase in attack power or healing potency. It's Closer to 5%.

Ironically, the highest percentual increase is by pumping all your allocation points into VIT as a THM. With 13 HP
per point of VIT @50, you're looking at a 390 point increase in survivability; and that's (on the average) around 20%.
See http://na.beta.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/7750/. A solid "meh", yesyes.

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 3:42pm by Rinsui
#53 Jun 25 2013 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
rfolkker wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
PavetlXIV wrote:
In BETA forums there is an interesting idea from a member. Somehow I find this idea of Allocating points more interesting than allocating points to attributes. He basically explains a merit system in which you can increase the potency of certain actions somehow similar the way merits work in FFXI. I believe this is better for players to chose who they want to play their classes and jobs. Thus, a WAR player that wants to be a tank could enhance his/hers actions that affects tanking abilities, whereas a DD WAR could enhance his/hers offensive actions.

Pleaes refer to the following link for a detailed explanation: http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/57016-Stat-Point-Allocation-is-a-Bland-Experience?p=802718&viewfull=1#post802718 (I wanted to copy/paste ir here, but I couldn't attach the picture hehehehe, my appologies)

What do you think of this system? I believe this could give players a better grasp of what are they doing, plus avoiding that a melee class can only focus on STR just like BarteIX explained. Also, I believe there is less probability to ***** up the stats allocation because you focus on actions.


That's a little better, and I love his mockup...

But when you get right down to it, it's the same problem in a different package, albeit a much more interesting package.

When you give people the ability to tweak their numbers, you aren't offering a playstyle choice, you're offering a math choice. And your choice will invariably boil down to:
1: Use the cookie-cutter build that's been mathed out to provide the best performance
2: Do it wrong

That doesn't seem like a real choice to me. And it's fake customization, since every person taking their performance seriously will have exactly the same build. Systems like this are the reason Blizzard completely redesigned their talent system in Mists of Pandaria. Because systems like this one don't work and only serve as a trap to entice people in to gimping themselves.

A real choice is one that alters gameplay in a way the player finds interesting, but without one choice being strictly better than the others. It's SUPER tricky to pull this off, and it's significantly easier to just cobble together a system like the one you linked or the one we currently have. But ultimately, providing real choices for a player to customize how they play is the superior option.


They are just something to provide the option to balance or focus. Our choice, not SEs. If we as a group decide to apply them to a specific stat, that is "our" decision, not SEs, thereby offering the only real form of customization that can be done. Having them "Cookie cutter" vs "Wrong" is merely the mind-set of the community, and it appears that for the most part the community has already decided, they want Cookie cutter.

Personally I commend SE for allowing us to at least have some say, though it is obvious that the decision is still min/max.

As for the bland idea. Dressing it up doesn't change anything. SE is not trying to fool us with this, and has been pretty straight forward in saying that this is just something for us to use to balance or not as we see fit. Again, it's not something to break the balance of the game.

We have the option to make our characters different, though it's obvious by the number of points, and the limited influence, they know what we are going to do with them, but they are at least making it something "We" as a community decide, not them.


Except when you realize that SE has to balance around someone doing this correctly. If, for instance, I evenly distribute my 30 points across all 6 stats (+5 each), I will perform strictly worse than someone who didn't do that. Because of that, SE has to account for the idea that I will distribute my stats correctly and balance their encounters accordingly. If they don't do that, then the group that has their min/max hats on will absolutely steamroll the content and then (correctly) complain that it isn't challenging.

There's really no interpretation here, you aren't dealing with abstract ideas, you're dealing with math.

I'm sorry, my statement was only in reference to the fact that the stats *DON'T* have that significant of an impact to prevent exactly what you are saying. It can make the difference for a bad player by a hit or two. It will have zero influence other than parse results for a good player, and an elite player will have the exact same stats as any other great player who min/maxed.

*Disclaimer: I am not trying to imply that only elitists min/max, just using it as a point of reference.
#54 Jun 25 2013 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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Grandmomma wrote:
rfolkker wrote:
The stat point bonuses help compensate for the racial modifiers. .



So each race gets different stats at level 1? Not sure why, but I thought they were equal. Please verify, thanks cause
I want to be a mage, so I may have to change to Lala, instead of Hume.

Cheers!


Midlanders actually have one of the higher allocations of magic stats. Typically one of each of the Race's types is geared more toward magic than the other one. The exception to this might be Elezen, as both tend to have high magic stats while duskwight has lower dex than the other. When you pick your race on the character selection screen it tells you their starting stats under the description on the left side of the screen.

I don't think that this is like FFXI, where you gained stats from three different sources upon leveling up. In FFXI you drew your stats from your Main job, your sub job, and your race. all three leveled up and added to your stats as you progressed. I believe in FFXIV the only thing that levels up is your job. while one race may have more in a stat than another, the
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PUP WHM PLD MNK BLU BST SAM WAR BLM 99 BRD THF NIN DNC SMN RDM 50+

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#55 Jun 25 2013 at 4:11 PM Rating: Good
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The stat points could also be a cheap way to add to some stats such as HP without having to go through the expensive process of gathering gear and materia again. supposing they allow for respeccing.

I was mostly thinking that this system is a sort of fail-safe if they ever did end up going F2P (god i hope not). A lot of F2P MMOs use stat allocation systems like this to forces characters to spend money if they wish to reset their points.



Edited, Jun 25th 2013 6:13pm by DamienSScott
____________________________
FFXI: DamienSlvrblade Race: Elvaan Nation: San d'Oria Server: Sylph 2002-2007, Phoenix 2012
PUP WHM PLD MNK BLU BST SAM WAR BLM 99 BRD THF NIN DNC SMN RDM 50+

FFXIV: Damien Scott Race: Duskwight Elezen GC: Limsa Lominsa Server: Ultros
DoW GLA50 ACN50 PUG50 MAR 50 Rest30+
DoH/DoL All 40+
#56 Jun 25 2013 at 7:21 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
BartelX wrote:
So? The exact same thing happens with gear choices. Players find what is absolutely the most ideal on a slot by slot basis, and form cookie cutter builds based on it. The same thing happens with abilities and rotations as well. Once the best is figured out, everyone flocks to it. At least if you give players more choices, they can base their decisions on how they want to play the game, or at least try out different options for different situations (if point resets are allowed). Some players are always going to min/max everything, it's just the nature of mmo's (and any game that relies on stats).


That's true, but I think we can agree that best-in-slot gear existing is not the same thing as this.

Rinsui wrote:
I think we're talking about the quest for the holy grail of MMOs here. Perfect balance between a multitude of
sufficiently unique options, with choices that truly matter but do not lock out anyone permanently due to the
choices he made. Good luck with that one.


How isn't it the same? You are min/maxing stats to get the most out of your particular job. What's the difference if it's stats you allocate versus gear you allocate?

Archmage Callinon wrote:
My point here is that what we're getting isn't even an attempt at it. Even if the merit point suggestion above isn't a solution either, it's at least interesting enough that people would have to think about it for more than 10 seconds to figure out what it means for them.


Listen, I don't disagree with your base idea. The stat point distribution, as it stands now, is way too cookie cutter. Every state available to increase has a direct effect on certain classes only, which pigeonholes much of the playerbase into only leveling that one stat for fear of being gimp otherwise. However, the merit point suggestion, or my suggestion of allowing all the different stats in the game (acc, crit, magic def, etc), both give a much larger spectrum for players to choose from. Sure, there will still be min/max players, as there will regardless of what you do, but there will also be far more players who are willing to experiment and try something new, especially if they allow you to reset your points in some interval.

All I'm looking for is a bit more freedom. I don't need the system to be completely outside the realm of min/maxers, as I really don't see how that's possible. Just give us more options and I'll be happy.



Edited, Jun 25th 2013 9:22pm by BartelX
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#57 Jun 26 2013 at 1:38 AM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Every state available to increase has a direct effect on certain classes only, which pigeonholes much of the playerbase into only leveling that one stat for fear of being gimp otherwise. However, the merit point suggestion, or my suggestion of allowing all the different stats in the game (acc, crit, magic def, etc), both give a much larger spectrum for players to choose from. Sure, there will still be min/max players, as there will regardless of what you do, but there will also be far more players who are willing to experiment and try something new, especially if they allow you to reset your points in some interval.


FFXI players used to min/max because it was the most efficient (fast) way to get XP.
Outside of XP/merit party there was a lot more freedom: for example i remember using WAR/WHM more often than you would guess, it was a good choice to travel, and for ballista, besieged and some of the assaults... i was ASKED to play it in dynamis (way too many DD, nobody taking the aggro and the hits).
I wouldnt worry because FFXIV doesnt seem to be an XP grind like its predecessor and min/maxing isnt as necessary as it was there, and we will have much more freedom.


Edited, Jun 26th 2013 3:41am by Falchetto
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