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Mmorpg's First Impression Updated 07/03/2013Follow

#1 Jun 26 2013 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
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A staff member at mmorpg has just posted his first impression.
Have a look at it.
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/446/feature/7532/First-Impressions.html

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/446/feature/7555/More-Beta-Impressions.html/page/1

Edited, Jul 3rd 2013 4:30pm by sandpark
#2 Jun 26 2013 at 4:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Well there is no way to make questing overly exciting, there are thousands of quest, they all can't be epic and most have to be "please find john in the stables" type.
#3 Jun 26 2013 at 4:43 PM Rating: Good
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I said previously that I prefer 100 unique exhaustive quests over 10,000 more generic ones. But that is not the way mmos work if they want to retain players over long durations. Well I hope he doesn't down score ARR in his review later because every mmo does this basically.
#4 Jun 26 2013 at 4:51 PM Rating: Good
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Hmm, if the only real negative he had was them choosing a subscription model, I'd say the game is doing quite well. He didn't really seem very knowledgable about the game though, what with "thurmaturge" having cure and all. Smiley: lol Oh well, it certainly wasn't a negative review.
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#5 Jun 26 2013 at 4:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Impression Bartel.
He is doing an exhaustive review just as the game is fixing to release.
#6 Jun 26 2013 at 4:56 PM Rating: Default
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I share his concerns about the subscription model, and before we start a debate and I get called out - it doesn't really have anything to do with my personal views.

I just don't know how well a P2P game is going to do in the current market.

Yoshi-P has also (in a strange display) backed himself into a corner by slamming F2P games before ARR's future on a subscription model is even remotely certain.
#7 Jun 26 2013 at 5:02 PM Rating: Excellent
What Yoshi-P did was deliver a firm answer to the question of, "Will ARR go F2P in a few months, and can I just wait for that to happen?"

The answer, emphatically, is "no."

I believe that will help the sales and stability of the game immensely.
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#8 Jun 26 2013 at 5:05 PM Rating: Good
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As part of a company who has once said "That technology isn't where the industry is going" and then turned around a few years later to come out with a product that we once denounced, the lasting effect is negligible if the product is noteworthy. The product designer who came out and said that had his reputation hurt slightly, but as a company there wasn't a lot of negative blow-back.

The guys with a hard on for our company raised all **** trying to get customers to dislike our product but at the end of the day we provided something the customer wanted. It is now a very successful product in our line-up, haters be damned.


Thayos wrote:
What Yoshi-P did was deliver a firm answer to the question of, "Will ARR go F2P in a few months, and can I just wait for that to happen?"

The answer, emphatically, is "no."

I believe that will help the sales and stability of the game immensely.


I couldn't agree more. If even the slightly possibility or mention of it going F2P I feel a lot of players would "wait it out". Never thought of this before.

Edited, Jun 26th 2013 7:06pm by burtonsnow

Edited, Jun 26th 2013 7:07pm by burtonsnow
#9 Jun 26 2013 at 5:14 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
What Yoshi-P did was deliver a firm answer to the question of, "Will ARR go F2P in a few months, and can I just wait for that to happen?"

The answer, emphatically, is "no."

I believe that will help the sales and stability of the game immensely.


Maybe, but in his response I feel that he bashed F2P models and made it seem like the P2P model is needed to ensure quality. So it would be pretty strange for the game to go F2P ever at this point.

If P2P doesn't work out, they backed themselves into a corner and have nowhere to go. Like the author of the article in OP, I just think that Square Enix is out of touch in this case, and might not be making the best decisions.

In Japan, people are willing to subscribe in order to play Monster Hunter console games online. That doesn't mean it's going to work in the west (and it is free in the west).
#10 Jun 26 2013 at 5:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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I am sick and tired of the F2P argument...i tell ya what when the time comes 3-4 months after the release and one side is right i give them the right and do the the "I was right and you were wrong" dance. >_<
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#11 Jun 26 2013 at 5:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Teravibe wrote:
I am sick and tired of the F2P argument...i tell ya what when the time comes 3-4 months after the release and one side is right i give them the right and do the the "I was right and you were wrong" dance. >_<



No kidding.
#12 Jun 26 2013 at 5:50 PM Rating: Good
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I'll say it again. I do not agree with everything Yoshi has done. But he has been genuine and assertive and spoke his mind. I don't think speculation on the payment model spelling the downfall of ARR is warranted or has any basis. No one can say anything on that until at least a year after it launches.

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you.
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you but make allowance for their doubting too.
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting or being lied about, don't deal in lies.
Or being hated, don't give way to hating, and yet don't look too good or talk too wise.
If you can dream and not make your dreams your master.
If you can think and not make your thoughts your aim.
If you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two imposters just the same.
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken, twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools.
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken. Then stood up and build them with worn out tools.
If you can make one heap of all your winnings and risk it on one turn of pitch and toss.
And lose then start again at your beginnings and never breathe a word about your loss.
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew to serve your term long after they're gone.
And so hold on when there is nothing in you, except the will that says to them hold on.
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue or walk with kings nor lose the common touch.
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you, if all men count with you but none too much.
If you can fill the unforgiving minute with sixty seconds worth of distanced run.
Yours is the earth and everything in it.

And which is more, you will be a man my son."


Who's quote is this? I love it.








#13 Jun 26 2013 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
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Teravibe wrote:
I am sick and tired of the F2P argument...i tell ya what when the time comes 3-4 months after the release and one side is right i give them the right and do the the "I was right and you were wrong" dance. >_<


Don't say this. Then we'll get a thousand threads with long paragraphs and at the end is TL:DR I was right and you were wrong... Let's not give anybody ideas.
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#14 Jun 26 2013 at 6:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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sandpark wrote:
"<snip>
And which is more, you will be a man my son."

Whose quote is this? I love it.


That's the poem "If" by Rudyard Kipling.

It's great that the game is getting positive feedback a few months ahead of its release. I look forward to seeing more fleshed-out responses as more is added in/fixed in phase 3 and especially 4. Yoshi has my overall vote of confidence.

Edited, Jun 26th 2013 8:15pm by Klarus

Edited, Jun 26th 2013 8:15pm by Klarus
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#15 Jun 26 2013 at 8:08 PM Rating: Good
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Thanks!
#16 Jun 26 2013 at 8:41 PM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
I'll say it again. I do not agree with everything Yoshi has done. But he has been genuine and assertive and spoke his mind. I don't think speculation on the payment model spelling the downfall of ARR is warranted or has any basis. No one can say anything on that until at least a year after it launches.


Period.

Edited, Jun 26th 2013 10:41pm by chomama
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#17 Jun 26 2013 at 9:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm willing to pay for this game, at the initial sale, and as a subscriber. As a strong supporter of what Squaresoft (Square-Enix) has provided me for video games throughout the years, it would be a **** shame if they ever went bankrupt. I have no idea what financial status they are currently in, but I do seem to remember seeing things regarded if FFXIV would flop again, it might be a hole that SE would have a hard time digging themselves out of.

I do not want that to happen, and I feel if this game is successful, it would be a huge boost to them, leading to many more years of quality SE titles.

It's not as if I wasn't going to buy this game already, I just feel like it's also for a good cause. There have been a lot of companies swimming around the drain recently, and I don't want SE to be one of them. Long live Final Fantasy. Smiley: grin

Edited, Jun 26th 2013 11:31pm by supermegazeke
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#18 Jun 26 2013 at 9:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
Thayos wrote:
What Yoshi-P did was deliver a firm answer to the question of, "Will ARR go F2P in a few months, and can I just wait for that to happen?"

The answer, emphatically, is "no."

I believe that will help the sales and stability of the game immensely.


Maybe, but in his response I feel that he bashed F2P models and made it seem like the P2P model is needed to ensure quality. So it would be pretty strange for the game to go F2P ever at this point.

If P2P doesn't work out, they backed themselves into a corner and have nowhere to go. Like the author of the article in OP, I just think that Square Enix is out of touch in this case, and might not be making the best decisions.

In Japan, people are willing to subscribe in order to play Monster Hunter console games online. That doesn't mean it's going to work in the west (and it is free in the west).


He made complete sense though when arguing against F2P. With F2P it's harder to gauge from month to month how much income you are going to have to pay everybody that needs to be paid, and then have money left over to try and create new content that's going to keep people playing(and hopefully paying). With P2P, you have an easier time trending income from month to month.

We've already had a thread about this. Please, no F2P.
#19 Jun 27 2013 at 1:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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We've already had a thread about this. Please, no F2P.


The only reason P2P will fail is if SE doesn't adequately produce new content for the game.

In other words, success is SE's to lose.
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#20 Jun 27 2013 at 1:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Teravibe wrote:
I am sick and tired of the F2P argument...i tell ya what when the time comes 3-4 months after the release and one side is right i give them the right and do the the "I was right and you were wrong" dance. >_<

I've heard this before Smiley: sly

Just like people here who guaranteed that beta 1.0 would be head and shoulders above alpha. Just like the people who said I could do my 'told ya so' dance when XIV launched and wasn't followed soon after by the miracle patch. I'm still the bad guy. I'm still the negative nancy despite reason to be cautious or even skeptical about future releases.

I don't always agree with Killua, but I think they're right on this one. It's still just a hypothetical, but if XIV does indeed have their hand forced into F2P to sustain; it would be difficult to pivot away from the remarks he made about F2P.

Hatamaz wrote:
He made complete sense though when arguing against F2P. With F2P it's harder to gauge from month to month how much income you are going to have to pay everybody that needs to be paid, and then have money left over to try and create new content that's going to keep people playing(and hopefully paying). With P2P, you have an easier time trending income from month to month.


I don't really agree here. He said himself that they don't rely on outside sources for funding. The fact that they even decided to dump more money into XIV after the initial flop doesn't support his argument. They spent how long of XIV's lifespan in F2P mode? How were they paying the people who needed to be paid? That argument doesn't make sense to me.

Yoshi also used an example to talk about consistent income, but what guarantees that a subscriber keeps their subscription running? 400k subs to 200k subs in a month is highly unlikely I'll agree, but does anyone remember how fast SWtoR's population plummeted? It's ironic that Yoshi used SWtoR as an example without considering this. While SWtoR was still sub based, they dropped **** near half their playerbase over the course of several months.

To my knowledge, there is only one way to guarantee income in the long run; annual subscription. Nothing guarantees that players will be interested enough to play from month to month(though regular content updates will bolster players motivation). The only way to guarantee that players will pay is to make them pay up front.

Edited, Jun 27th 2013 3:43am by FilthMcNasty
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#21 Jun 27 2013 at 2:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yoshida seems also to have said that one of the reasons that should let FFXIV survive as a P2P game is the fact that MMOs like SwtOR were financed by bigger companies, and the developing teams had to reach a certain income requested by their investitors relatively soon after the launch, while SE financed itself so they can earn their "enstablished" profit time even if they will not have too many subscribers.
I don't recall exactly were and who was, but i read time ago that a producer said that an MMO needs only 50 thousands subscribers to gain their money back, the rest it's only profit.

And, honestly, a F2P game it's not only different from a P2P regarding the subscribe fee, but also in how it's structured, since it needs to give F2P players a "reason" to spend money. While I don't like to pay I also don't like the design difference that a F2P model brings to an MMO, so I'd prefer to pay for it and receive a smoother experience.

Edited, Jun 27th 2013 4:08am by Rastark
#22 Jun 27 2013 at 2:23 AM Rating: Default
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Rastark wrote:
I don't recall exactly were and who was, but i read time ago that a producer said that an MMO needs only 50 thousands subscribers to gain their money back, the rest it's only profit.


SE's goal for breakeven on FFXI was amassing 200k subs over a timeline spread over several years. Their budget was said to be roughly 25 million dollars, which is extremely low for a game these days. In order to make that happen they had to cut a lot of corners like not having costs associated with setting up and maintaining regional servers.

Not a jab at you, but I find it incredibly hard to believe that any modern MMO could claw it's way out of the red on 50k subs unless they weren't looking to profit for a decade.

Rastark wrote:
While I don't like to pay I also don't like the design difference that a F2P model brings to an MMO, so I'd prefer to pay for it and receive a smoother experience.


Exactly what is meant by 'smoother experience'?
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#23 Jun 27 2013 at 2:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Rastark wrote:
I don't recall exactly were and who was, but i read time ago that a producer said that an MMO needs only 50 thousands subscribers to gain their money back, the rest it's only profit.


SE's goal for breakeven on FFXI was amassing 200k subs over a timeline spread over several years. Their budget was said to be roughly 25 million dollars, which is extremely low for a game these days. In order to make that happen they had to cut a lot of corners like not having costs associated with setting up and maintaining regional servers.

Not a jab at you, but I find it incredibly hard to believe that any modern MMO could claw it's way out of the red on 50k subs unless they weren't looking to profit for a decade.

Rastark wrote:
While I don't like to pay I also don't like the design difference that a F2P model brings to an MMO, so I'd prefer to pay for it and receive a smoother experience.


Exactly what is meant by 'smoother experience'?


Example of a "not as smooth" experience.

You just leveled up. You go assign bonus stats. SUDDENLY a small notification pops up, letting you know that for the cost of $6.00, you get to reassign those stats if you need to!
#24 Jun 27 2013 at 2:47 AM Rating: Good
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You could be right, as i don't even remember well where i read that and it was a long time ago, so probably it doesn't apply on FFXIV. But the point of my intervention was the declaration of Yoshida : P

An example of smoother experiences...I'd say no leveling, gold or whatever point boosters so everyone in the game can experience the same, no need to pay functions that with a subscription i will have at my disposition everytime, no "uh, shiny" kind of temptations, better support from the company or last but not least, lesser trolls or people that can't even move the camera properly(call me mean, but that's a fact).
#25 Jun 27 2013 at 3:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Ravashack wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Exactly what is meant by 'smoother experience'?


Example of a "not as smooth" experience.

You just leveled up. You go assign bonus stats. SUDDENLY a small notification pops up, letting you know that for the cost of $6.00, you get to reassign those stats if you need to!

People vastly overstate the effect of F2P. Not sure if you have played any F2P games recently, but for the most part all content remains the same as it would were you a subscriber. The bonuses you get are things like increased inventory space, lower cooldowns on dungeons and the like. Things that are more convenient (if you spam dungeons or have an aversion to using the auction house), but are far from inconvenient if you don't. Probably more than 90% of all things obtained through cash shops these days are vanity items.

I could give you several examples of games whose producers have allowed these items purchased in the cash shop to be obtained with in-game currency that anyone who played normally as a free game could obtain(at the cost of time farming of course).

Bottom line: There is a right and a wrong way to do it. Most people just assume the worst despite all of the recent examples that it has been refined in a manner that has no adverse affect on those who wish to play the game without paying.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#26 Jun 27 2013 at 3:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Yoshi also used an example to talk about consistent income, but what guarantees that a subscriber keeps their subscription running?


"Guarantee" is a legal term that's not really applicable to this situation.

But it is human nature not to immediately cancel a service you no longer want if it automatically renews itself. That's why whenever possible, companies will try to get you into "Opt Out" policies or its close cousin, "The First Month Is Free," as in, you'll be billed continuously for something you might not want or use anymore, unless you take the steps to opt out. The reason is, people put it off. They don't have time to deal with the hassle, there's still time to deal with it later, they forget about it, next thing you know they're paying for another month.

That's why in a subscription model, income doesn't really dwindle as fast as on a per-use basis (like in an F2P model). Even if most people really wanted out, it would be some time before everyone who wanted to quit actually took the time to quit, and during that time, most of those subscription dollars would still be coming in. But, if you're not playing an F2P game, you're not buying that F2P game's crap. There's no revenue in that case.
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