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#52 Jun 30 2013 at 5:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:

this game wasnt made to cater to WoW players? Made for people who enjoyed FFXI? If this game doenst have what I want go play something that does?

ROFLMAO

PLEASE go back and read a LOT of teh threads on thsi forum (especially teh ones with me posting in em) and THEN come back here and post again.. youll see that you clearly have a lot of editing to do.


Well, I think you have been a bit mislead by the over-exaggerations of forum posts.

I would say it's more a the love-child of both games. It takes a lot of mechanics that make WoW welcoming to new players, but it definitely feels like the developers goals are to turn a WoW player into an FFXI player. I can't speak for the later gameplay elements, but the difficulty is definitely higher at 20 than it was for my level 60 WoW character (which is as high as I got.)



Ok is official, you did not play WOW, to compare ARR level 20 gameplay with WOW at level 60 is blasphemous, in wow you cannot do one istance w/o a healer at ALL, you cannot even get past the first trash wave, in ARR you can clear the first 5 dungeons with out a healer :) And the gameplay is stupid in ARR, the only gimmick that whoever developed the combat system seemed to pick from wow, is "Extra adds on a boss" that is all i have seen, every boss on every istance, "Adds" in WOW at 60, you have a hundred things to worry about besides adds.

come on man.


Screenshot or this didn't happen.

Seriously, I've run all the group content in the beta, as a whm. I'll be DAMNED if they could have done it without me.

And I did play WoW, and you can get to max level without a healer. There's never a required dungeon on your way to cap. The level 15 dungeon bosses adhere to your "add more adds" formula, but not the later ones.

For example, the second dungeon in Gridania (forget the name) has a boss that shoots out poisonous pods among the battlefield that explode and poison you if you get too close. You need to avoid them and have a ranged character destroy them while focusing on the boss. The slime mini-boss in Copperbell requires you to have a member push a lever to spawn Bomb enemies and then NOT kill them, but let them blow up on the slime to break it into smaller slimes.

If you don't run out of the bomb range, you die, also. Then spriggans start spawning that specifically attack the bombs so that they won't blow up.

I never got involved in WoW in any hardcore manner, no. But you are the only person I've ever seen refer to WoW as "hard."

Edited, Jun 30th 2013 8:06am by Louiscool
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#53 Jun 30 2013 at 6:46 AM Rating: Default
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Louiscool wrote:
I never got involved in WoW in any hardcore manner, no. But you are the only person I've ever seen refer to WoW as "hard."


They're called hardmode instances for a reason. There are a few dozen guilds who pretty much do nothing but try for 'world first' achievements when these instances are unlocked. Think full-time job except instead of clocking in at work, you log into WoW. Hours a day for days a week, people who have done it for years(skilled veterans) bash their heads against difficult content for weeks and in some cases, months.

I recall a group who got one of the 'world first' titles for full clear of an instance stating in an interview that it took them well over 600 attempts on a single boss before they finally got it down. One boss out of half a dozen. In many cases these instances require perfect execution or it's a wipe. It's not like FFXI where if a key player died you could just toss an elemental seal and sleep on the boss while you raised them and then kite it around for 5 minutes while you waited for weakness to wear off. You only get a few raises to use in battle and after that you're screwed until combat ends.

I think the most overlooked element to why WoW was considered difficult is the amount of coordination between players that was required. Everyone needed to be aware of their proximity to the mob, their tanks, their healers and many times objects or areas of the environment that needed to be avoided, rushed to for cover or interacted with in some way. Not that they didn't exist, but there were rarely instances where you could pretty much guarantee a win solely based on the fact that 2 or 3 players paid attention to when they needed to interrupt the 1 thing that would wipe your group.



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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#54 Jun 30 2013 at 6:49 AM Rating: Default
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You guys know this game came out and failed once already... Don't know why people saying it hasn't come out or still in beta. They seem to forget the disaster that happened as if it was a different game.
#55 Jun 30 2013 at 7:15 AM Rating: Good
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
I never got involved in WoW in any hardcore manner, no. But you are the only person I've ever seen refer to WoW as "hard."


They're called hardmode instances for a reason. There are a few dozen guilds who pretty much do nothing but try for 'world first' achievements when these instances are unlocked. Think full-time job except instead of clocking in at work, you log into WoW. Hours a day for days a week, people who have done it for years(skilled veterans) bash their heads against difficult content for weeks and in some cases, months.

I recall a group who got one of the 'world first' titles for full clear of an instance stating in an interview that it took them well over 600 attempts on a single boss before they finally got it down. One boss out of half a dozen. In many cases these instances require perfect execution or it's a wipe. It's not like FFXI where if a key player died you could just toss an elemental seal and sleep on the boss while you raised them and then kite it around for 5 minutes while you waited for weakness to wear off. You only get a few raises to use in battle and after that you're screwed until combat ends.

I think the most overlooked element to why WoW was considered difficult is the amount of coordination between players that was required. Everyone needed to be aware of their proximity to the mob, their tanks, their healers and many times objects or areas of the environment that needed to be avoided, rushed to for cover or interacted with in some way. Not that they didn't exist, but there were rarely instances where you could pretty much guarantee a win solely based on the fact that 2 or 3 players paid attention to when they needed to interrupt the 1 thing that would wipe your group.


It should also be noted that hardmode dungeons were introduced after WotLK. In other words, when the game shipped, it didn't have Hard Mode. So while this level of co-ordination is required for a hard mode dungeon, the dungeon is specifically a raiding dungeon that exists outside the actual "storyline" (since WoW's storylining is not exactly made clear for people who play the game and can be missed entirely as no dungeon is required for progressing in the game), and is in fact something that was added YEARS after launch. Additionally it was content specifically modified to intentionally challenge players beyond even a standard dungeon.

Why is it that people are expecting FFXIV to have this level of complexity and difficulty at launch? This sort of dungeon takes time to build and properly balance so that, while hard, it is not impossible to complete. The core mechanics are all there and working. Polish them a bit more, work out some of the kinks, then we can start talking about end-game raids and then these comparisons to WoW start making some form of sense.

Right now, people are comparing WoW's raiding dungeons, a totally OPTIONAL section of gameplay, with the MANDATORY storylined dungeons of FFXIV. You really can't. The two don't live in the same area of content development. At all. They cannot make it impossible to progress through the STORYLINE, but that's also how you unlock pretty much all the content. Chocobos, Retainers, even your Inn room. All of these are gated behind STORYLINE. So making it some epic raid where you are required to have a set group is utterly stupid. If players can beat it without a healer, can out prepare and outplay the dungeon, then I for one see that as a POSITIVE.

Edited, Jun 30th 2013 9:22am by Pawkeshup
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#56 Jun 30 2013 at 8:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Fine... nothing to see here Smiley: frown

Edited, Jun 30th 2013 10:19am by Parathyroid
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#57 Jun 30 2013 at 9:28 AM Rating: Default
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5,038 posts
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:

this game wasnt made to cater to WoW players? Made for people who enjoyed FFXI? If this game doenst have what I want go play something that does?

ROFLMAO

PLEASE go back and read a LOT of teh threads on thsi forum (especially teh ones with me posting in em) and THEN come back here and post again.. youll see that you clearly have a lot of editing to do.


Well, I think you have been a bit mislead by the over-exaggerations of forum posts.

I would say it's more a the love-child of both games. It takes a lot of mechanics that make WoW welcoming to new players, but it definitely feels like the developers goals are to turn a WoW player into an FFXI player. I can't speak for the later gameplay elements, but the difficulty is definitely higher at 20 than it was for my level 60 WoW character (which is as high as I got.)



Ok is official, you did not play WOW, to compare ARR level 20 gameplay with WOW at level 60 is blasphemous, in wow you cannot do one istance w/o a healer at ALL, you cannot even get past the first trash wave, in ARR you can clear the first 5 dungeons with out a healer :) And the gameplay is stupid in ARR, the only gimmick that whoever developed the combat system seemed to pick from wow, is "Extra adds on a boss" that is all i have seen, every boss on every istance, "Adds" in WOW at 60, you have a hundred things to worry about besides adds.

come on man.




Hmm lets see here

WoW = Nov 2004
FFXIV = BETA = NOT EVEN RELEASE YET = OBVIOUSLY WoW is vastly different/superior at this point... heck even FFXI SUCKED when it first came out (in Japan) it took TWO YEAR to get good (which is when we FINALLY got it).. point being.. how about we compare WoW during BET to FFXIV BETA and THEN we can have a fair argument

Now you telling us WoW had all the stuff you just mentioned during its beta?


lol i defend the game and get subbed.. now Im 100% certain someones just going to ALL my posts not even reading them and just on a karma bomb spree
#58 Jun 30 2013 at 9:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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sixstroke wrote:
I regret to inform you all that I will not be joining you all.

I woke up a early this morning to continue some grinding on my THM/Conj(my favorite so far) and I realized I had very little good to say about the game. I found myself just wanting to get to the next zone to see the awesome landscapes(which they are) however, that just doesn't justify the monthly payment and time invested.

I wish you all well! I will be stopping in, here and there to see how the game is going because both FF and FF:online hold a dear place in my heart!

Good Luck Everyone!


Wow are you playing the same game I am? I am loving FFXIV: ARR so far, I'm having the opposite problem, I can't put it down!
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#59 Jun 30 2013 at 9:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:

this game wasnt made to cater to WoW players? Made for people who enjoyed FFXI? If this game doenst have what I want go play something that does?

ROFLMAO

PLEASE go back and read a LOT of teh threads on thsi forum (especially teh ones with me posting in em) and THEN come back here and post again.. youll see that you clearly have a lot of editing to do.


Well, I think you have been a bit mislead by the over-exaggerations of forum posts.

I would say it's more a the love-child of both games. It takes a lot of mechanics that make WoW welcoming to new players, but it definitely feels like the developers goals are to turn a WoW player into an FFXI player. I can't speak for the later gameplay elements, but the difficulty is definitely higher at 20 than it was for my level 60 WoW character (which is as high as I got.)



Ok is official, you did not play WOW, to compare ARR level 20 gameplay with WOW at level 60 is blasphemous, in wow you cannot do one istance w/o a healer at ALL, you cannot even get past the first trash wave, in ARR you can clear the first 5 dungeons with out a healer :) And the gameplay is stupid in ARR, the only gimmick that whoever developed the combat system seemed to pick from wow, is "Extra adds on a boss" that is all i have seen, every boss on every istance, "Adds" in WOW at 60, you have a hundred things to worry about besides adds.

come on man.




Hmm lets see here

WoW = Nov 2004
FFXIV = BETA = NOT EVEN RELEASE YET = OBVIOUSLY WoW is vastly different/superior at this point... heck even FFXI SUCKED when it first came out (in Japan) it took TWO YEAR to get good (which is when we FINALLY got it).. point being.. how about we compare WoW during BET to FFXIV BETA and THEN we can have a fair argument

Now you telling us WoW had all the stuff you just mentioned during its beta?


lol i defend the game and get subbed.. now Im 100% certain someones just going to ALL my posts not even reading them and just on a karma bomb spree


I'd hate to be in an ally getting jumped with you as my help if that's what you call "defending" XIV.
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#60 Jun 30 2013 at 9:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mopdaddy wrote:
You guys know this game came out and failed once already... Don't know why people saying it hasn't come out or still in beta. They seem to forget the disaster that happened as if it was a different game.


I played version 1.0 for a short while, it is a different game completely.
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#61 Jun 30 2013 at 9:43 AM Rating: Default
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Parathyroid wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:

this game wasnt made to cater to WoW players? Made for people who enjoyed FFXI? If this game doenst have what I want go play something that does?

ROFLMAO

PLEASE go back and read a LOT of teh threads on thsi forum (especially teh ones with me posting in em) and THEN come back here and post again.. youll see that you clearly have a lot of editing to do.


Well, I think you have been a bit mislead by the over-exaggerations of forum posts.

I would say it's more a the love-child of both games. It takes a lot of mechanics that make WoW welcoming to new players, but it definitely feels like the developers goals are to turn a WoW player into an FFXI player. I can't speak for the later gameplay elements, but the difficulty is definitely higher at 20 than it was for my level 60 WoW character (which is as high as I got.)



Ok is official, you did not play WOW, to compare ARR level 20 gameplay with WOW at level 60 is blasphemous, in wow you cannot do one istance w/o a healer at ALL, you cannot even get past the first trash wave, in ARR you can clear the first 5 dungeons with out a healer :) And the gameplay is stupid in ARR, the only gimmick that whoever developed the combat system seemed to pick from wow, is "Extra adds on a boss" that is all i have seen, every boss on every istance, "Adds" in WOW at 60, you have a hundred things to worry about besides adds.

come on man.




Hmm lets see here

WoW = Nov 2004
FFXIV = BETA = NOT EVEN RELEASE YET = OBVIOUSLY WoW is vastly different/superior at this point... heck even FFXI SUCKED when it first came out (in Japan) it took TWO YEAR to get good (which is when we FINALLY got it).. point being.. how about we compare WoW during BET to FFXIV BETA and THEN we can have a fair argument

Now you telling us WoW had all the stuff you just mentioned during its beta?


lol i defend the game and get subbed.. now Im 100% certain someones just going to ALL my posts not even reading them and just on a karma bomb spree


I'd hate to be in an ally getting jumped with you as my help if that's what you call "defending" XIV.



sounds like defense to me.. he claims how much better a 9 year old game is than a beta... how is that even a fair comparison? of course a game thats been out 9 years is gonna have a lot more content and be more polished than something that hasnt even been officially released yet, correct?
#62 Jun 30 2013 at 9:46 AM Rating: Excellent
Ostia wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:

this game wasnt made to cater to WoW players? Made for people who enjoyed FFXI? If this game doenst have what I want go play something that does?

ROFLMAO

PLEASE go back and read a LOT of teh threads on thsi forum (especially teh ones with me posting in em) and THEN come back here and post again.. youll see that you clearly have a lot of editing to do.


Well, I think you have been a bit mislead by the over-exaggerations of forum posts.

I would say it's more a the love-child of both games. It takes a lot of mechanics that make WoW welcoming to new players, but it definitely feels like the developers goals are to turn a WoW player into an FFXI player. I can't speak for the later gameplay elements, but the difficulty is definitely higher at 20 than it was for my level 60 WoW character (which is as high as I got.)



Ok is official, you did not play WOW, to compare ARR level 20 gameplay with WOW at level 60 is blasphemous, in wow you cannot do one istance w/o a healer at ALL, you cannot even get past the first trash wave, in ARR you can clear the first 5 dungeons with out a healer :) And the gameplay is stupid in ARR, the only gimmick that whoever developed the combat system seemed to pick from wow, is "Extra adds on a boss" that is all i have seen, every boss on every istance, "Adds" in WOW at 60, you have a hundred things to worry about besides adds.

come on man.

I hate to go off topic here but it has to be said.

Ostia your comparison is far from fair. What you (and someone else after you) are referring to are RAIDS (10man+ content). How you can compare a 4man dungeon to a 10+ man raid is absolutely laughable. Yes the hardest of the hard RAIDS in WoW are pretty darn hard but we're not referring to end game raids we're referring to low level dungeons. Now if you compare the low level 4man dungeons in ARR we've seen so far in the beta to low level 5man dungeons in WoW then we can at least make a comparison. So far from tanking with my MRD I've noticed that there isn't much of a difficulty difference OVERALL between the lower level dungeons of the 2 games, but ARR does test you with MECHANICS much earlier than WoW. In WoW you can "faceroll" you're way through any lower level dungeon and come out on top. I've played WoW since the addition of Naxx to the game back in patch 1.11, and it's gotten incredibly easy in the low levels to the point that I dread making new characters because I know I'm in for pure boredom until level cap. In WoW you can ignore most of the mechanics until you get near level cap, from what I've experienced in ARR you get combat mechanic experience in the first what, 2 hours of the game? I've loved FFXI, WoW, and my time so far in ARR beta, but my time is definitely done with FFXI (played since NA release, enjoyed abyssea but I'm done with it) and WoW (played since 1.11, absolutely HATE the direction the game and Blizzard are both headed in general).

S/N: I forgot who it was but to whoever was talking about 600 attempts at a boss, I must must must must stress the fact that they are end-game RAID bosses that require 10/25 people to complete and are the Heroic/Hardmode versions of the encounters. I'll also share a secret that many people don't realize when they talk about attempts at a boss. Many of the top guilds will do LOTS of dry runs before they even waste consumables as otherwise they're just wasting time/currency. They call for a wipe if the mechanics arent done properly as its faster to wipe now rather than to wipe another 5 mins into the fight because you're down a dps, a healer, or tank because of failed mechanics and have to start all over. That way they can also practice the mechanics to get each part down 1 segment at a time. Once they feel they've gotten a mechanic down they progress to the next mechanic and so forth until they feel they can do the whole fight with as little error as possible and as quickly as possible. They also do this to make subsequent farm runs easier.

The amount of misinformation in some of the posts I've seen in this thread is staggering. I'm sure there's a lot more I missed but these just really stood out.

Edited, Jun 30th 2013 11:49am by Seraphknight777
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#63 Jun 30 2013 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
I never got involved in WoW in any hardcore manner, no. But you are the only person I've ever seen refer to WoW as "hard."


They're called hardmode instances for a reason. There are a few dozen guilds who pretty much do nothing but try for 'world first' achievements when these instances are unlocked. Think full-time job except instead of clocking in at work, you log into WoW. Hours a day for days a week, people who have done it for years(skilled veterans) bash their heads against difficult content for weeks and in some cases, months.

I recall a group who got one of the 'world first' titles for full clear of an instance stating in an interview that it took them well over 600 attempts on a single boss before they finally got it down. One boss out of half a dozen. In many cases these instances require perfect execution or it's a wipe. It's not like FFXI where if a key player died you could just toss an elemental seal and sleep on the boss while you raised them and then kite it around for 5 minutes while you waited for weakness to wear off. You only get a few raises to use in battle and after that you're screwed until combat ends.

I think the most overlooked element to why WoW was considered difficult is the amount of coordination between players that was required. Everyone needed to be aware of their proximity to the mob, their tanks, their healers and many times objects or areas of the environment that needed to be avoided, rushed to for cover or interacted with in some way. Not that they didn't exist, but there were rarely instances where you could pretty much guarantee a win solely based on the fact that 2 or 3 players paid attention to when they needed to interrupt the 1 thing that would wipe your group.



Thanks for this insight, Filth. And I'm not trying to talk any trash on WoW, I just obviously don't have the knowledge of it.

I also don't consider FFXI to be "hard" either. It's punishing, and I think that's a crucial difference.
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#64 Jun 30 2013 at 11:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Seraphknight777 wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:

this game wasnt made to cater to WoW players? Made for people who enjoyed FFXI? If this game doenst have what I want go play something that does?

ROFLMAO

PLEASE go back and read a LOT of teh threads on thsi forum (especially teh ones with me posting in em) and THEN come back here and post again.. youll see that you clearly have a lot of editing to do.


Well, I think you have been a bit mislead by the over-exaggerations of forum posts.

I would say it's more a the love-child of both games. It takes a lot of mechanics that make WoW welcoming to new players, but it definitely feels like the developers goals are to turn a WoW player into an FFXI player. I can't speak for the later gameplay elements, but the difficulty is definitely higher at 20 than it was for my level 60 WoW character (which is as high as I got.)



Ok is official, you did not play WOW, to compare ARR level 20 gameplay with WOW at level 60 is blasphemous, in wow you cannot do one istance w/o a healer at ALL, you cannot even get past the first trash wave, in ARR you can clear the first 5 dungeons with out a healer :) And the gameplay is stupid in ARR, the only gimmick that whoever developed the combat system seemed to pick from wow, is "Extra adds on a boss" that is all i have seen, every boss on every istance, "Adds" in WOW at 60, you have a hundred things to worry about besides adds.

come on man.

I hate to go off topic here but it has to be said.

Ostia your comparison is far from fair. What you (and someone else after you) are referring to are RAIDS (10man+ content). How you can compare a 4man dungeon to a 10+ man raid is absolutely laughable. Yes the hardest of the hard RAIDS in WoW are pretty darn hard but we're not referring to end game raids we're referring to low level dungeons. Now if you compare the low level 4man dungeons in ARR we've seen so far in the beta to low level 5man dungeons in WoW then we can at least make a comparison. So far from tanking with my MRD I've noticed that there isn't much of a difficulty difference OVERALL between the lower level dungeons of the 2 games, but ARR does test you with MECHANICS much earlier than WoW. In WoW you can "faceroll" you're way through any lower level dungeon and come out on top. I've played WoW since the addition of Naxx to the game back in patch 1.11, and it's gotten incredibly easy in the low levels to the point that I dread making new characters because I know I'm in for pure boredom until level cap. In WoW you can ignore most of the mechanics until you get near level cap, from what I've experienced in ARR you get combat mechanic experience in the first what, 2 hours of the game? I've loved FFXI, WoW, and my time so far in ARR beta, but my time is definitely done with FFXI (played since NA release, enjoyed abyssea but I'm done with it) and WoW (played since 1.11, absolutely HATE the direction the game and Blizzard are both headed in general).

S/N: I forgot who it was but to whoever was talking about 600 attempts at a boss, I must must must must stress the fact that they are end-game RAID bosses that require 10/25 people to complete and are the Heroic/Hardmode versions of the encounters. I'll also share a secret that many people don't realize when they talk about attempts at a boss. Many of the top guilds will do LOTS of dry runs before they even waste consumables as otherwise they're just wasting time/currency. They call for a wipe if the mechanics arent done properly as its faster to wipe now rather than to wipe another 5 mins into the fight because you're down a dps, a healer, or tank because of failed mechanics and have to start all over. That way they can also practice the mechanics to get each part down 1 segment at a time. Once they feel they've gotten a mechanic down they progress to the next mechanic and so forth until they feel they can do the whole fight with as little error as possible and as quickly as possible. They also do this to make subsequent farm runs easier.

The amount of misinformation in some of the posts I've seen in this thread is staggering. I'm sure there's a lot more I missed but these just really stood out.

Edited, Jun 30th 2013 11:49am by Seraphknight777


In THE Ostia's (as he shall henceforth be referred to as Smiley: nod) defense, he was attacking the idea that level 60 WoW raids are comparable to level 20 XIV raids... It is not him who made that comparison.
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I probably understood about 1/10th of what was discussed in this thread and I'm sober as a rope. (I don't know if that's actually a saying or not). -Kierk
#65 Jun 30 2013 at 12:00 PM Rating: Default
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Louiscool wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
I never got involved in WoW in any hardcore manner, no. But you are the only person I've ever seen refer to WoW as "hard."


They're called hardmode instances for a reason. There are a few dozen guilds who pretty much do nothing but try for 'world first' achievements when these instances are unlocked. Think full-time job except instead of clocking in at work, you log into WoW. Hours a day for days a week, people who have done it for years(skilled veterans) bash their heads against difficult content for weeks and in some cases, months.

I recall a group who got one of the 'world first' titles for full clear of an instance stating in an interview that it took them well over 600 attempts on a single boss before they finally got it down. One boss out of half a dozen. In many cases these instances require perfect execution or it's a wipe. It's not like FFXI where if a key player died you could just toss an elemental seal and sleep on the boss while you raised them and then kite it around for 5 minutes while you waited for weakness to wear off. You only get a few raises to use in battle and after that you're screwed until combat ends.

I think the most overlooked element to why WoW was considered difficult is the amount of coordination between players that was required. Everyone needed to be aware of their proximity to the mob, their tanks, their healers and many times objects or areas of the environment that needed to be avoided, rushed to for cover or interacted with in some way. Not that they didn't exist, but there were rarely instances where you could pretty much guarantee a win solely based on the fact that 2 or 3 players paid attention to when they needed to interrupt the 1 thing that would wipe your group.



Thanks for this insight, Filth. And I'm not trying to talk any trash on WoW, I just obviously don't have the knowledge of it.

I also don't consider FFXI to be "hard" either. It's punishing, and I think that's a crucial difference.


Unless you know exactly, and I mean exactly what you are doing... many of the XI bosses are hard. I don't think that's over the top to say.
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I probably understood about 1/10th of what was discussed in this thread and I'm sober as a rope. (I don't know if that's actually a saying or not). -Kierk
#66 Jun 30 2013 at 12:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Seraphknight777 wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:

this game wasnt made to cater to WoW players? Made for people who enjoyed FFXI? If this game doenst have what I want go play something that does?

ROFLMAO

PLEASE go back and read a LOT of teh threads on thsi forum (especially teh ones with me posting in em) and THEN come back here and post again.. youll see that you clearly have a lot of editing to do.


Well, I think you have been a bit mislead by the over-exaggerations of forum posts.

I would say it's more a the love-child of both games. It takes a lot of mechanics that make WoW welcoming to new players, but it definitely feels like the developers goals are to turn a WoW player into an FFXI player. I can't speak for the later gameplay elements, but the difficulty is definitely higher at 20 than it was for my level 60 WoW character (which is as high as I got.)



Ok is official, you did not play WOW, to compare ARR level 20 gameplay with WOW at level 60 is blasphemous, in wow you cannot do one istance w/o a healer at ALL, you cannot even get past the first trash wave, in ARR you can clear the first 5 dungeons with out a healer :) And the gameplay is stupid in ARR, the only gimmick that whoever developed the combat system seemed to pick from wow, is "Extra adds on a boss" that is all i have seen, every boss on every istance, "Adds" in WOW at 60, you have a hundred things to worry about besides adds.

come on man.

I hate to go off topic here but it has to be said.

Ostia your comparison is far from fair. What you (and someone else after you) are referring to are RAIDS (10man+ content). How you can compare a 4man dungeon to a 10+ man raid is absolutely laughable. Yes the hardest of the hard RAIDS in WoW are pretty darn hard but we're not referring to end game raids we're referring to low level dungeons. Now if you compare the low level 4man dungeons in ARR we've seen so far in the beta to low level 5man dungeons in WoW then we can at least make a comparison. So far from tanking with my MRD I've noticed that there isn't much of a difficulty difference OVERALL between the lower level dungeons of the 2 games, but ARR does test you with MECHANICS much earlier than WoW. In WoW you can "faceroll" you're way through any lower level dungeon and come out on top. I've played WoW since the addition of Naxx to the game back in patch 1.11, and it's gotten incredibly easy in the low levels to the point that I dread making new characters because I know I'm in for pure boredom until level cap. In WoW you can ignore most of the mechanics until you get near level cap, from what I've experienced in ARR you get combat mechanic experience in the first what, 2 hours of the game? I've loved FFXI, WoW, and my time so far in ARR beta, but my time is definitely done with FFXI (played since NA release, enjoyed abyssea but I'm done with it) and WoW (played since 1.11, absolutely HATE the direction the game and Blizzard are both headed in general).

S/N: I forgot who it was but to whoever was talking about 600 attempts at a boss, I must must must must stress the fact that they are end-game RAID bosses that require 10/25 people to complete and are the Heroic/Hardmode versions of the encounters. I'll also share a secret that many people don't realize when they talk about attempts at a boss. Many of the top guilds will do LOTS of dry runs before they even waste consumables as otherwise they're just wasting time/currency. They call for a wipe if the mechanics arent done properly as its faster to wipe now rather than to wipe another 5 mins into the fight because you're down a dps, a healer, or tank because of failed mechanics and have to start all over. That way they can also practice the mechanics to get each part down 1 segment at a time. Once they feel they've gotten a mechanic down they progress to the next mechanic and so forth until they feel they can do the whole fight with as little error as possible and as quickly as possible. They also do this to make subsequent farm runs easier.

The amount of misinformation in some of the posts I've seen in this thread is staggering. I'm sure there's a lot more I missed but these just really stood out.

Edited, Jun 30th 2013 11:49am by Seraphknight777


I agree, Seraph. Thank you. I enjoy sound logic.
#67 Jun 30 2013 at 1:15 PM Rating: Default
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2,202 posts
Seraphknight777 wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:

this game wasnt made to cater to WoW players? Made for people who enjoyed FFXI? If this game doenst have what I want go play something that does?

ROFLMAO

PLEASE go back and read a LOT of teh threads on thsi forum (especially teh ones with me posting in em) and THEN come back here and post again.. youll see that you clearly have a lot of editing to do.


Well, I think you have been a bit mislead by the over-exaggerations of forum posts.

I would say it's more a the love-child of both games. It takes a lot of mechanics that make WoW welcoming to new players, but it definitely feels like the developers goals are to turn a WoW player into an FFXI player. I can't speak for the later gameplay elements, but the difficulty is definitely higher at 20 than it was for my level 60 WoW character (which is as high as I got.)



Ok is official, you did not play WOW, to compare ARR level 20 gameplay with WOW at level 60 is blasphemous, in wow you cannot do one istance w/o a healer at ALL, you cannot even get past the first trash wave, in ARR you can clear the first 5 dungeons with out a healer :) And the gameplay is stupid in ARR, the only gimmick that whoever developed the combat system seemed to pick from wow, is "Extra adds on a boss" that is all i have seen, every boss on every istance, "Adds" in WOW at 60, you have a hundred things to worry about besides adds.

come on man.

I hate to go off topic here but it has to be said.

Ostia your comparison is far from fair. What you (and someone else after you) are referring to are RAIDS (10man+ content). How you can compare a 4man dungeon to a 10+ man raid is absolutely laughable. Yes the hardest of the hard RAIDS in WoW are pretty darn hard but we're not referring to end game raids we're referring to low level dungeons. Now if you compare the low level 4man dungeons in ARR we've seen so far in the beta to low level 5man dungeons in WoW then we can at least make a comparison. So far from tanking with my MRD I've noticed that there isn't much of a difficulty difference OVERALL between the lower level dungeons of the 2 games, but ARR does test you with MECHANICS much earlier than WoW. In WoW you can "faceroll" you're way through any lower level dungeon and come out on top. I've played WoW since the addition of Naxx to the game back in patch 1.11, and it's gotten incredibly easy in the low levels to the point that I dread making new characters because I know I'm in for pure boredom until level cap. In WoW you can ignore most of the mechanics until you get near level cap, from what I've experienced in ARR you get combat mechanic experience in the first what, 2 hours of the game? I've loved FFXI, WoW, and my time so far in ARR beta, but my time is definitely done with FFXI (played since NA release, enjoyed abyssea but I'm done with it) and WoW (played since 1.11, absolutely HATE the direction the game and Blizzard are both headed in general).

S/N: I forgot who it was but to whoever was talking about 600 attempts at a boss, I must must must must stress the fact that they are end-game RAID bosses that require 10/25 people to complete and are the Heroic/Hardmode versions of the encounters. I'll also share a secret that many people don't realize when they talk about attempts at a boss. Many of the top guilds will do LOTS of dry runs before they even waste consumables as otherwise they're just wasting time/currency. They call for a wipe if the mechanics arent done properly as its faster to wipe now rather than to wipe another 5 mins into the fight because you're down a dps, a healer, or tank because of failed mechanics and have to start all over. That way they can also practice the mechanics to get each part down 1 segment at a time. Once they feel they've gotten a mechanic down they progress to the next mechanic and so forth until they feel they can do the whole fight with as little error as possible and as quickly as possible. They also do this to make subsequent farm runs easier.

The amount of misinformation in some of the posts I've seen in this thread is staggering. I'm sure there's a lot more I missed but these just really stood out.

Edited, Jun 30th 2013 11:49am by Seraphknight777


I did not compare level 20 ARR content to WOW level 60 Raids... I never even used the word RAID :) Level 60 WOW istances A.K.A TBC, are one of the hardest istances sets released in WOW Smiley: smile Louis compared them, not me, i said it was BLASPHEMOUS to do such a comparison... since none of those instances can be done w/o a healer, unlike the ARR counterparts that he did compared them too.... Also what combat mechanics do you experience the first 2 hours of ARR please do tell us ? Because you claim the misinformation in this thread is staggering... yet you are adding to it Smiley: lol
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#68 Jun 30 2013 at 5:25 PM Rating: Default
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4,172 posts
Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:
It should also be noted that hardmode dungeons were introduced after WotLK. In other words, when the game shipped, it didn't have Hard Mode. So while this level of co-ordination is required for a hard mode dungeon, the dungeon is specifically a raiding dungeon that exists outside the actual "storyline" (since WoW's storylining is not exactly made clear for people who play the game and can be missed entirely as no dungeon is required for progressing in the game), and is in fact something that was added YEARS after launch. Additionally it was content specifically modified to intentionally challenge players beyond even a standard dungeon.


I've got 2 words for you...

40-man raids.

I used hardmode instances because they are a recent example. That doesn't mean that there was never any challenge or high level of coordination in WoW prior to that point.

Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:
Why is it that people are expecting FFXIV to have this level of complexity and difficulty at launch? This sort of dungeon takes time to build and properly balance so that, while hard, it is not impossible to complete. The core mechanics are all there and working. Polish them a bit more, work out some of the kinks, then we can start talking about end-game raids and then these comparisons to WoW start making some form of sense.

Right now, people are comparing WoW's raiding dungeons, a totally OPTIONAL section of gameplay, with the MANDATORY storylined dungeons of FFXIV. You really can't.


I don't think it's that people expect it but rather, they want that from their game and they will look elsewhere to find it. People tend to be more willing to sacrifice for the sake of convenience. Whether or not people wind up sticking with XIV will depend on how much they want to sacrifice for whatever XIV brings to the table that other games don't.

The comparison of optional or mandatory has no bearing. It was a response to WoW's content not being hard. It really didn't even have to be a comparison to be honest and where it was, it was compared to XI which is more established than WoW.

Parathyroid wrote:
Unless you know exactly, and I mean exactly what you are doing... many of the XI bosses are hard. I don't think that's over the top to say.


Thing is, unless your BLM don't know how to sleep something or your tanks and off-tanks don't know how to kite, it really isn't much of an issue. For the vast majority of FFXI HNM, you can give a detailed strategy for an entire alliance in just a single sentence. Any other knowledge needed was all gained from reading the chat log.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#69 Jun 30 2013 at 5:26 PM Rating: Decent
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273 posts
PhrozenFFXI wrote:
Seraphknight777 wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:

this game wasnt made to cater to WoW players? Made for people who enjoyed FFXI? If this game doenst have what I want go play something that does?

ROFLMAO

PLEASE go back and read a LOT of teh threads on thsi forum (especially teh ones with me posting in em) and THEN come back here and post again.. youll see that you clearly have a lot of editing to do.


Well, I think you have been a bit mislead by the over-exaggerations of forum posts.

I would say it's more a the love-child of both games. It takes a lot of mechanics that make WoW welcoming to new players, but it definitely feels like the developers goals are to turn a WoW player into an FFXI player. I can't speak for the later gameplay elements, but the difficulty is definitely higher at 20 than it was for my level 60 WoW character (which is as high as I got.)



Ok is official, you did not play WOW, to compare ARR level 20 gameplay with WOW at level 60 is blasphemous, in wow you cannot do one istance w/o a healer at ALL, you cannot even get past the first trash wave, in ARR you can clear the first 5 dungeons with out a healer :) And the gameplay is stupid in ARR, the only gimmick that whoever developed the combat system seemed to pick from wow, is "Extra adds on a boss" that is all i have seen, every boss on every istance, "Adds" in WOW at 60, you have a hundred things to worry about besides adds.

come on man.

I hate to go off topic here but it has to be said.

Ostia your comparison is far from fair. What you (and someone else after you) are referring to are RAIDS (10man+ content). How you can compare a 4man dungeon to a 10+ man raid is absolutely laughable. Yes the hardest of the hard RAIDS in WoW are pretty darn hard but we're not referring to end game raids we're referring to low level dungeons. Now if you compare the low level 4man dungeons in ARR we've seen so far in the beta to low level 5man dungeons in WoW then we can at least make a comparison. So far from tanking with my MRD I've noticed that there isn't much of a difficulty difference OVERALL between the lower level dungeons of the 2 games, but ARR does test you with MECHANICS much earlier than WoW. In WoW you can "faceroll" you're way through any lower level dungeon and come out on top. I've played WoW since the addition of Naxx to the game back in patch 1.11, and it's gotten incredibly easy in the low levels to the point that I dread making new characters because I know I'm in for pure boredom until level cap. In WoW you can ignore most of the mechanics until you get near level cap, from what I've experienced in ARR you get combat mechanic experience in the first what, 2 hours of the game? I've loved FFXI, WoW, and my time so far in ARR beta, but my time is definitely done with FFXI (played since NA release, enjoyed abyssea but I'm done with it) and WoW (played since 1.11, absolutely HATE the direction the game and Blizzard are both headed in general).

S/N: I forgot who it was but to whoever was talking about 600 attempts at a boss, I must must must must stress the fact that they are end-game RAID bosses that require 10/25 people to complete and are the Heroic/Hardmode versions of the encounters. I'll also share a secret that many people don't realize when they talk about attempts at a boss. Many of the top guilds will do LOTS of dry runs before they even waste consumables as otherwise they're just wasting time/currency. They call for a wipe if the mechanics arent done properly as its faster to wipe now rather than to wipe another 5 mins into the fight because you're down a dps, a healer, or tank because of failed mechanics and have to start all over. That way they can also practice the mechanics to get each part down 1 segment at a time. Once they feel they've gotten a mechanic down they progress to the next mechanic and so forth until they feel they can do the whole fight with as little error as possible and as quickly as possible. They also do this to make subsequent farm runs easier.

The amount of misinformation in some of the posts I've seen in this thread is staggering. I'm sure there's a lot more I missed but these just really stood out.

Edited, Jun 30th 2013 11:49am by Seraphknight777


I agree, Seraph. Thank you. I enjoy sound logic.


Maybe so, but you obviously didn't read the entire thread text... you agreed with a block of text accusing Ostia of something he didn't do.
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#70 Jun 30 2013 at 6:12 PM Rating: Good
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No, I read the thread. He may have accused Ostia of something he didn't do, but the point he was trying to make is very valid in terms of some of the complaints I've seen in these forums. It may not apply to Ostia, but it still applies.
#71 Jun 30 2013 at 6:15 PM Rating: Default
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2,202 posts
So lying is cool as long as you make a point even if is based on a lie ? Smiley: lol

You people impress me sometimes
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#72 Jun 30 2013 at 6:19 PM Rating: Decent
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62 posts
sixstroke wrote:
I regret to inform you all that I will not be joining you all.

I woke up a early this morning to continue some grinding on my THM/Conj(my favorite so far) and I realized I had very little good to say about the game. I found myself just wanting to get to the next zone to see the awesome landscapes(which they are) however, that just doesn't justify the monthly payment and time invested.

I wish you all well! I will be stopping in, here and there to see how the game is going because both FF and FF:online hold a dear place in my heart!

Good Luck Everyone!


seriously a classy post, and for its subject matter that is legendarily unique. and i understand how you feel, but let me just put these out there, receive it however:
have you been reading quests? good cohesive story. Its beta, not even final beta, therefore I'd suggest playing at least 1 month of live if money isn't the issue to see the final product and just be certain you have made the right choice. I've been playing mmorpgs too long and it has been a long time since i've been genuinly excited to start my next avatar if you will. Either way best of luck to you, class act.

Rinsui wrote:
Somebody bring me a bucket for all those tears.
Or better yet: a bathtub.


one thing i do enjoy about my beta experience so far is i realized there are some 'pros' and there are some people who are inexperienced with mmo's but came for dat fantasy. and typing this i realize wow has a large age difference in some of its players, but ffxiv the margin has the chance to be even wilder. no good or bad, just interesting.

as far as mr rinsui, i would not say the full t word for u. ur skills are weak, your bridge is neither long nor deep. i hope you name your character Fail Hater.

#73 Jun 30 2013 at 6:20 PM Rating: Good
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154 posts
Ostia wrote:
So lying is cool as long as you make a point even if is based on a lie ? Smiley: lol

You people impress me sometimes


No no no...the fact that some people are comparing the few levels of beta ARR to a complete game such as WoW or FFXI in terms of difficulty. That part applies. Does it not? I'm sure you've seen the complaints as well. Does that point not apply to those? Not trying to be argumentative...it seems a few people are ready for that today though...
#74 Jun 30 2013 at 6:24 PM Rating: Good
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154 posts
elenex wrote:
[quote=sixstroke]I regret to inform you all that I will not be joining you all.

I woke up a early this morning to continue some grinding on my THM/Conj(my favorite so far) and I realized I had very little good to say about the game. I found myself just wanting to get to the next zone to see the awesome landscapes(which they are) however, that just doesn't justify the monthly payment and time invested.

I wish you all well! I will be stopping in, here and there to see how the game is going because both FF and FF:online hold a dear place in my heart!

Good Luck Everyone!




That's why I'm excited to come back to the FF community. I've played a lot of MMOs since I left FFXI, and I must say that this community is the most mature. Sure there are some exceptions, but overall much more class in this community.

Edited, Jun 30th 2013 8:34pm by PhrozenFFXI
#75 Jun 30 2013 at 6:46 PM Rating: Decent
elenex wrote:
seriously a classy post, and for its subject matter that is legendarily unique. and i understand how you feel, but let me just put these out there, receive it however:
have you been reading quests? good cohesive story. Its beta, not even final beta, therefore I'd suggest playing at least 1 month of live if money isn't the issue to see the final product and just be certain you have made the right choice. I've been playing mmorpgs too long and it has been a long time since i've been genuinly excited to start my next avatar if you will. Either way best of luck to you, class act.

Classy or not, it wasn't needed. This isn't his personal blog, and honestly no one cares if someone doesn't want to play the game. Just don't play it, hence the initial negative reply by Rinsui


elenex wrote:
as far as mr rinsui, i would not say the full t word for u. ur skills are weak, your bridge is neither long nor deep. i hope you name your character Fail Hater.

And you playing internet white knight and calling down someone for expressing irritation at someone literally creating a topic to express their own dissatisfaction with a product and magnanimously announce their departure as if it were some great event isn't any better. See, now you insulted him. And he might come here, insult you, and then we have yet another flame thread.

In fact, most of this thread is rather pointless. Can an admin just lock it up now? These devolving threads are starting to get unsightly all over the place.

There is a very dedicated set of people on the boards simply here to troll every post with their own special dislike for FFXIV, and if you aren't going to ban them, at least take away the threads they derail. It's just getting silly that they enjoy trolling about here.

Edited, Jun 30th 2013 8:51pm by Pawkeshup
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#76 Jun 30 2013 at 6:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:


I did not compare level 20 ARR content to WOW level 60 Raids... I never even used the word RAID :) Level 60 WOW istances A.K.A TBC, are one of the hardest istances sets released in WOW Smiley: smile Louis compared them, not me, i said it was BLASPHEMOUS to do such a comparison... since none of those instances can be done w/o a healer, unlike the ARR counterparts that he did compared them too.... Also what combat mechanics do you experience the first 2 hours of ARR please do tell us ? Because you claim the misinformation in this thread is staggering... yet you are adding to it Smiley: lol


WHOA WHOA WHOA!

Let's get it straight here. I said that I got to level 60 and didn't encounter anything even resembling a challenge. I never compared the instanced dungeons in WoW (which I did NONE of except maybe one cave in the Barrens..) to the level 20 dungeons, (of which I found relatively challenging but forgiving).

The first dungeons in beta are challenging for new players, but give PLENTY of time to die over and over and still get a win. They are EXACTLY what the game needs to attract new players. The agony of defeat and the thrill of overcoming it.

We, and that is my friend and 2 other legacy players, cleared all three. In the first dungeon we had 1 death. The second, 2. The third, the tank and the mrd died on the mini boss, while I cure bombed the archer who tanked 9 slimes. Then we wiped 2 times on the final boss.

Still, we ended the final dungeon with 40 minutes to spare.

Hard? Eh. More that I am a bad Whm. (was too busy taking screenshots :D)
Screenshot

Forgiving? Absolutely.
Fun? **** yes.
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