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#1 Jul 02 2013 at 6:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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So I tend to read a lot of discussion around here regarding the old as time "will it, won't it?" debate regarding the success of XIV ARR... Particularly some less than optimistic individuals in the "One Million Beta's" thread.

The prevalent sentiment seems to be that the number of beta registrants is indeed irrelevant. While I tend to agree that that is indeed partially true, I don't agree entirely. Having a million beta registrants for this game is of particular importance (granted let us assume only a fraction of them are unique registrants.) This means that some number in the hundreds of thousands are at least willing to give what was objectively a poor game, another shot... What's more to benefit the cause of SE is that they've assembled what is looking to be a gem of game.

I recently found this article on a site which, I in particular, have never heard of before (for all I know this could be the biggest gaming website on earth... I don't do much game website perusing):

http://nzgamer.com/ps3/previews/1147/final-fantasy-xiv-a-realm-reborn-beta-impressions.html

What this tells me is that individuals who have a fresh perspective on the game, without any preconceptions of what they would be coming into are having a great time with the game. This is huge and I mean HUGE!

Imagine the countless number of PS3/4 players who will be giving this game a try without ever having played the PC version of 1.0... It is those individuals who will need to be impressed first and foremost. A large number of these gamers may not have even known that 1.0 existed, many will come to the game with no preconceived notions, no bad taste in their mouth, no scorned girl/boyfriend syndrome etc... Nothing but a fresh start and expectations of a great, fun experience.

All in all, I believe the number of negative individuals hanging around forums will soon dwindle to those who like to be negative just for the sake of being a contrarian.

Edited, Jul 4th 2013 9:23am by Wint Lock Thread: Degenerated yet again.
#2 Jul 02 2013 at 6:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Interest now doesn't interest me. I'm more interested in the interest 3 or 6 months after release. If interest then is high, only then will I feel that my interest in beta provided some return interest in the form of interest from the rest of the MMO community.

EDIT: Not making fun. Interest is good. But healthy dissension is also bueno.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2013 8:38pm by Yotis
#3 Jul 02 2013 at 6:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Yotis wrote:
Interest now doesn't interest me. I'm more interested in the interest 3 or 6 months after release. If interest then is high, only then will I feel that my interest in beta provided some return interest in the form of interest from the rest of the MMO community.


Clearly the amount of enjoyment derived from the beta has at minimum a moderate to high positive correlation to the results 3 to 6 months (arbitrary time period) from now.

Must a gamer not enjoy his initial experience to continue forth?

To say that a gamer's initial experience doesn't interest you, is to neglect to remember that if he/she do not enjoy their first, let us say, 2 weeks with the game... how can they ever make it to this magical 6 months of subscriptions?

I would argue that the initial experience is one of the single most important aspects to any game. After all, the saying "you never get a second chance to make a first impression" holds a lot of water (albeit much less in a game which is indeed making it's.... well.... second first impression Smiley: lol)



Edited, Jul 2nd 2013 8:41pm by ClydesShadow
#4 Jul 02 2013 at 6:41 PM Rating: Good
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I'm loving the game so far. I've enjoyed my time in beta and trying out different things. Once I started getting that feeling of being a little burned out on one thing I switched to something else and carried on.

I think SE so far has done a wonderful job of remaking a game that will cater to and impress many people to stick around for a while. As long as they keep up with the fresh and engaging content moving forward after launch, I see no reason for this game to "fail".

Another point is, haters gonna hate. We have our fair share here in zam, but they are still around and playing so it must not be all bad.
#5 Jul 02 2013 at 6:43 PM Rating: Good
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Yotis wrote:
Interest now doesn't interest me. I'm more interested in the interest 3 or 6 months after release. If interest then is high, only then will I feel that my interest in beta provided some return interest in the form of interest from the rest of the MMO community.

EDIT: Not making fun. Interest is good. But healthy dissension is also bueno.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2013 8:38pm by Yotis


Interest. Interest... INTEREST! INTEREST!!!!!!!!!!!
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#6 Jul 02 2013 at 6:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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ClydesShadow wrote:
So I tend to read a lot of discussion around here regarding the old as time "will it, won't it?" debate regarding the success of XIV ARR... Particularly some less than optimistic individuals in the "One Million Beta's" thread.

The prevalent sentiment seems to be that the number of beta registrants is indeed irrelevant. While I tend to agree that that is indeed partially true, I don't agree entirely. Having a million beta registrants for this game is of particular importance (granted let us assume only a fraction of them are unique registrants.) This means that some number in the hundreds of thousands are at least willing to give what was objectively a poor game, another shot... What's more to benefit the cause of SE is that they've assembled what is looking to be a gem of game.

I recently found this article on a site which, I in particular, have never heard of before (for all I know this could be the biggest gaming website on earth... I don't do much game website perusing):

http://nzgamer.com/ps3/previews/1147/final-fantasy-xiv-a-realm-reborn-beta-impressions.html

What this tells me is that individuals who have a fresh perspective on the game, without any preconceptions of what they would be coming into are having a great time with the game. This is huge and I mean HUGE!

Imagine the countless number of PS3/4 players who will be giving this game a try without ever having played the PC version of 1.0... It is those individuals who will need to be impressed first and foremost. A large number of these gamers may not have even known that 1.0 existed, many will come to the game with no preconceived notions, no bad taste in their mouth, no scorned girl/boyfriend syndrome etc... Nothing but a fresh start and expectations of a great, fun experience.

All in all, I believe the number of negative individuals hanging around forums will soon dwindle to those who like to be negative just for the sake of being a contrarian.


Negativity will never dwindle. Positivity can outshine negativity but it will always be there ruining this or that fun/constructive thread. The reality, for me, is MMO is at it's most volatile. Old schoolers are looking for fresh graphics. The 'turn 'em and burn 'em or aging/responsibilities' face of MMO aren't happy with the 'beentheredonethat/where's the progression' progress of the genre. There will be miserable people on both sides until the genre truly settles in to what it wants to be. We're in the middle of it right now. The negativity and forum wars won't end any time soon until then.
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#7 Jul 02 2013 at 6:47 PM Rating: Good
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ClydesShadow wrote:

3 to 6 months (arbitrary time period) from now.

. . . .

After all, the saying "you never get a second chance to make a first impression" holds a lot of water (albeit much less in a game which is indeed making it's.... well.... second first impression Smiley: lol)


Absolutely correct, I'd say. However, I would imagine first impressions matter less than depth for MMOs. They are, after all, designed to persist much longer than the average game.

I too am enjoying my time so far in beta. However, the depth of some things (combat system, mainly) worries me.

Additionally, the lack of different color chocobos worries me greatly. I can't sleep at night.
#8 Jul 02 2013 at 6:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Yotis wrote:
ClydesShadow wrote:

3 to 6 months (arbitrary time period) from now.

. . . .

After all, the saying "you never get a second chance to make a first impression" holds a lot of water (albeit much less in a game which is indeed making it's.... well.... second first impression Smiley: lol)


Absolutely correct, I'd say. However, I would imagine first impressions matter less than depth for MMOs. They are, after all, designed to persist much longer than the average game.

I too am enjoying my time so far in beta. However, the depth of some things (combat system, mainly) worries me.

Additionally, the lack of different color chocobos worries me greatly. I can't sleep at night.


Smiley: lol The chocobo color shortage of 2013 is certainly a thing of grave concern!

As to the battle system I agree there... although let's not forget, even a game like Tera with an action oriented system went the way of F2P. Mostly because the content lacked the depth we all so desperately wanted... Yoshi actually discusses why an action based MMO wouldn't be as enjoyable. He says that the balancing of creating interesting boss battles would be greatly reduced... I feel like if this wasn't true he would have certainly wanted to implement a more action based MMO.

I'll say one thing, with the release of XV and the people over at SE getting some real hands on experience with building an action oriented game, that could really produce some interesting results for SE MMOs of the future.

None the less, at the end of the day, the content brings in the crowd... although I agree the battle system will undoubtedly need an adjustment here and there.
#9 Jul 02 2013 at 7:01 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
Yotis wrote:
Interest now doesn't interest me. I'm more interested in the interest 3 or 6 months after release. If interest then is high, only then will I feel that my interest in beta provided some return interest in the form of interest from the rest of the MMO community.

EDIT: Not making fun. Interest is good. But healthy dissension is also bueno.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2013 8:38pm by Yotis


Interest. Interest... INTEREST! INTEREST!!!!!!!!!!!


Don't you steal my name for my chocobo.

EDIT:

Quote:
None the less, at the end of the day, the content brings in the crowd... although I agree the battle system will undoubtedly need an adjustment here and there.


Yes. I desperately want to see some movement on this front. Or at least a promise to heavily revisit this soon after launch.

Lack of depth in the battle system is the only thing preventing me from pre-ordering.

That . . . and lack of pink chocobos.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2013 9:04pm by Yotis
#10 Jul 02 2013 at 7:05 PM Rating: Good
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Yotis wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Yotis wrote:
Interest now doesn't interest me. I'm more interested in the interest 3 or 6 months after release. If interest then is high, only then will I feel that my interest in beta provided some return interest in the form of interest from the rest of the MMO community.

EDIT: Not making fun. Interest is good. But healthy dissension is also bueno.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2013 8:38pm by Yotis


Interest. Interest... INTEREST! INTEREST!!!!!!!!!!!


Don't you steal my name for my chocobo.


Don't worry. I named mine Boris.


Edited, Jul 2nd 2013 9:05pm by BartelX
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#11 Jul 02 2013 at 7:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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I knew FFXIV had a serious chance the moment it was picked as the best game among attendees at last year's Gamescom. If you had suggested it would reach that level of achievement between then and the miserable 2010 launch, I would have laughed my *** off. Yoshida-san deserves a lot of credit for turning things around so drastically. Hopefully, it pays off in the end.
#12 Jul 02 2013 at 8:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yotis wrote:


Yes. I desperately want to see some movement on this front. Or at least a promise to heavily revisit this soon after launch.

Lack of depth in the battle system is the only thing preventing me from pre-ordering.

That . . . and lack of pink chocobos.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2013 9:04pm by Yotis


I hear a lot of arguments about the 'lack of depth' in the combat system. Yet...

- Each class has their own mechanics.
- Each monster type has variable attacks, some which can be outright evaded or interrupted.
- Each boss fight has their own stipulations, heck even the sub-bosses have their own quirks.
- Yes, there are even teamwork mechanics in the way you have to work together to meet fight conditions and objectives - guildhests does an excellent job of explaining them.
- And when that's all said and done, preforming these right causes the limit break gague to fill quicker. (Example, go through the fight in Manor with and without turning off the lamps in the last fight, see how your limit gauge grows or doesn't.)

So where the heck do we need to add more depth to the combat!?

What is it that you're specifically looking for that is funneling your sight away from all the other elements?

Edited, Jul 2nd 2013 10:51pm by Hyrist
#13 Jul 02 2013 at 9:15 PM Rating: Good
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Class differentiation.

The fact that all class resources are exactly the same.

That will get old very quickly.

EDIT: And the lack of elemental resistances bugs me.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2013 11:17pm by Yotis
#14 Jul 02 2013 at 9:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
Yotis wrote:


Yes. I desperately want to see some movement on this front. Or at least a promise to heavily revisit this soon after launch.

Lack of depth in the battle system is the only thing preventing me from pre-ordering.

That . . . and lack of pink chocobos.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2013 9:04pm by Yotis


I hear a lot of arguments about the 'lack of depth' in the combat system. Yet...

- Each class has their own mechanics.
- Each monster type has variable attacks, some which can be outright evaded or interrupted.
- Each boss fight has their own stipulations, heck even the sub-bosses have their own quirks.
- Yes, there are even teamwork mechanics in the way you have to work together to meet fight conditions and objectives - guildhests does an excellent job of explaining them.
- And when that's all said and done, preforming these right causes the limit break gague to fill quicker. (Example, go through the fight in Manor with and without turning off the lamps in the last fight, see how your limit gauge grows or doesn't.)

So where the heck do we need to add more depth to the combat!?

What is it that you're specifically looking for that is funneling your sight away from all the other elements?

Edited, Jul 2nd 2013 10:51pm by Hyrist


I agree with this statement and would like to pose the same question to this community.

Also, you forgot to add the intermingling of actions between various classes/jobs to add to the complexity-- that at which are subject to your choosing.

In order to accurately assess the complexity of the game you must consider several factors. One being that this game was designed to be newbie friendly from the get go. Newbie friendly in the sense that it allows non-traditional MMO players to become immersed without getting overwhelmed by the genre. And two, that it simultaneously is attempting to appeal to the hard-core MMO playerbase. The method in which Yoshida has decided to address appealing to both of these player bases is by designing the beginning content to be simple, easy to follow and unintimidating. Then progress slowly, nearly holding your hand, into more complex content and so forth until you reach near end-game where the content is geared towards the hardcore player base. This content being the peak of combat complexity.

So, I ask, have a considerable percentage of the people in this community who complain about the lack of depth in combat experienced late to end game content? Can you speak for the complexity of the game when it is supposed to be complex or only for the portion of the content that is designed to appeal to newbie players?

Edited, Jul 3rd 2013 12:40pm by kwenzeler
#15 Jul 03 2013 at 7:19 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
experienced late to end game content?


This is a good point and I have NOT experienced end game content as it stands right now. I'll endeavor to do so this beta weekend. We'll see how it goes.
#16 Jul 03 2013 at 7:36 AM Rating: Good
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Yotis wrote:
Quote:
experienced late to end game content?


This is a good point and I have NOT experienced end game content as it stands right now. I'll endeavor to do so this beta weekend. We'll see how it goes.


How exactly are you planning to do this? There isn't any endgame content incorporated yet, other than possibly some high-level FATEs. The highest dungeon is 30-35 I think.

Also,
Yotis wrote:
The fact that all class resources are exactly the same


This is your big gripe with the combat depth? First off, not all class resources are the same. There are MP for mages and TP for combat classes. Beyond that, each class plays differently. For instance, Thaumaturges are required to swap attack patterns in order to maximize damage or MP regeneration. Marauders and Gladiators have stance-like abilities for both offense and defense. Pugilist has an order of attacks that are only unlocked by using certain skills. Almost all the classes play differently. Yes they use the same TP or MP resource, but they don't play the same at all. At least, they haven't from what I've seen.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2013 9:38am by BartelX
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#17 Jul 03 2013 at 7:40 AM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
Yotis wrote:
Interest now doesn't interest me. I'm more interested in the interest 3 or 6 months after release. If interest then is high, only then will I feel that my interest in beta provided some return interest in the form of interest from the rest of the MMO community.

EDIT: Not making fun. Interest is good. But healthy dissension is also bueno.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2013 8:38pm by Yotis


Interest. Interest... INTEREST! INTEREST!!!!!!!!!!!


That's interesting!
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#18 Jul 03 2013 at 7:43 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
How exactly are you planning to do this? There isn't any endgame content incorporated yet, other than possibly some high-level FATEs. The highest dungeon is 30-35 I think.


End game content as it stands right now = 30-35 then I suppose.

And yes. All resources for all classes being the same is a turn off for me.
#19 Jul 03 2013 at 10:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yotis wrote:
Class differentiation.

The fact that all class resources are exactly the same.

That will get old very quickly.

EDIT: And the lack of elemental resistances bugs me.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2013 11:17pm by Yotis


Overly generalization of intricate class mechanics, but I'll bite.

There is quite a bit of class differentiation already.

Here's a breakdown if you really need it, otherwise, skip the spoiler tag.


Lancer:

- Wide assortment of DoT skills.
- Highest Potency Single Attack
- Seperate Combos designed for burst damage.
- Highest layering of damage scaling skills.

Mechanically, Lancer is your typical combo and DoT class. The Full Thrust combo is your Spike Damage cycle, with Dragoon accenting it with Jumps for additional, TP free damage, as well as multiple stuns. Conversly to Pugilist, Lancer's very much about going 'All In' while having all of the damage buffs up to spike as much damage as possible while the +50 % Damage buffs are up, and then maintaining layers of damage afterwards to continue out damage.

Pugilist:

- Highest possible skill-speed stacking.
- Highest single crit buff.
- Endless Combo Cycle
- Fast Burn-out at max DPS.
- Decent Off-tanking potential.

While having difficulty currently with burning through TP quickly Pugilist has the best Combo Variability of all classes, due to the fact that each 'Stance' has multiple skills by level 50 to choose from, each of which vary in usefulness depending on context. This is on top of cooldown abilities Free of TP. Style wise, combat takes a rythmic cycle between the three stances while dancing around the opponent to get the appropriate bonuses on the attacks. In Contrast to Lancer, Pugilist is about the build up of damage bonuses over cycles, to the point of being incredibly hard hitting continuously. But, as stated before pushing for this max DPS burns out TP quickly, so it becomes a balancing act.

Thaumaturge:

- Best MP Maintance System in game.
- Proc Skills to enhance Fire and Thunder spells.
- Synergy between AoE and Single Target spells.

THM's setup is the very reason why enemy elemental resistances and weaknesses have been removed. The ones for players still exist and can be used for their benefit. Astral Fire is an incredible damage boost, while Umbral Ice provides heavy MP Regeneration. Any sort of immunity to either of these would severely hamper THM/BLM in these circumstances. That said, THM is a blast to play due to the mechanics of knowing when to swap, how to take advantage of thunder tics and Fire Procs to deal quick, powerful damage to your enemy without tapping out of Mana quickly and pushing yourself constantly onto Umbral Ice.

Gladiator

- Most defensive skills in the game.
- MP recovery through offensive action.
- Best Hate management tool in game.

Gladiator is a tank Through and Through. Although it's strongest hate tool, Provoke, is sh-arable, it's not exactly preferable that other classes use it, as it forces you at the top of the hate list. Hate management, forcing monster positioning, and of course self-preservation while taking the bulk of enemy attention all keep the Gladiator well occupied, even if they are the standard form of tank.


Archer

- Layered chance/context sensitive skills.
- Safest Ranged Damage
- Potential for no cost or no recast skills.

Archers a bit unique in its mechanics. It has a LOT of on-chance skills that layer into quite a potent set up. Heavy Shot has a chance of forcing a crit on Straight Shot which gives a default 10% chance for ANY skill to crit. Venomous Bite and Windbite both have the chance of resetting Bloodletter's Recast, which is a TP free attack at ranged every time their damage over time tics. Making Archer a class of stacking opportunities and capitalizing on them.

Conjurer

- Traits that enable scaling cure bonuses for second and third tier.
- Cleric Stance allows for alternating offensive/recovery play.

Conjurer, I feel, is the weakest designed of the classes. But that does not make it poor, just unrefined. It surrounds around Cleric Stance, which enables the Conjurer to move from offensive and defensive statistics. In the end, this dichotomy makes the class feel very busy overall, unless you commit yourself to one particular role to the neglect of others, which makes the class feel very linear. But it is the only class that can manage two entirely opposing roles.

Marauder
- Differing Tanking mechanics
- Diverging combos.
- Playstyle rewarding heavy aggression.

Marauder is a different tune of tank than Gladiator by a large degree. Most notedy is the offensive recovery granted by skills like Bloodbath and Storms path as well as Mercy Stroke. Then there's the note that all combo skills branch from the same Heavy Swing Ability. Most combos deal bonus enmity as well, which assures Warrior can push to keep hate consistently. At the same time, Venghance and Holmgang return damage from being damage and locks the enemy in place briefly to keep them from wandering towards healers or other hurt members.


And all that's not touching the deviations between Jobs and their classes.

Now if you're going to be obsenely general. The complaint "classes have the same resources" is true if you're complaining strictly on TP and MP. But that's about as inane as complaining that the classes are boring because they all have HP pools that are depleted the same way.

Each class has their own mechanics that manage their tasks in different ways. Let me put this plainly - no two classes play the same, at all. If you are playing them the same, then you're doing something wrong or describing it way too generally.

As stated in the spoiler, Elemental Resistances, on the player's side still exist. They've just been removed on the monsters side for obvious reasons when you look at THM's mechanics.
#20 Jul 03 2013 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
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Yotis wrote:
Quote:
How exactly are you planning to do this? There isn't any endgame content incorporated yet, other than possibly some high-level FATEs. The highest dungeon is 30-35 I think.


End game content as it stands right now = 30-35 then I suppose.

And yes. All resources for all classes being the same is a turn off for me.


Not trying to prod you but have you played any other Final Fantasy game in the series? Did they turn you off as well?
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#21 Jul 03 2013 at 11:22 AM Rating: Good
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Okay. I was wrong perhaps. I'll give it a shot this weekend.

Thanks for the replies.
#22 Jul 03 2013 at 11:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Yotis wrote:
Quote:
How exactly are you planning to do this? There isn't any endgame content incorporated yet, other than possibly some high-level FATEs. The highest dungeon is 30-35 I think.


End game content as it stands right now = 30-35 then I suppose.

And yes. All resources for all classes being the same is a turn off for me.


Well, then it's a good thing they all don't. Mages use MP, melee use TP. Those are two different resources. I'd also encourage you to read Hyrist's breakdown of classes, as it is an excellent description of how each class varies greatly. Right now it sounds like you've played a couple classes to 15-20 and made assumptions and generalizations that they all play the same, based on less than half of their abilities.

Also, trying to comment on level 30-35 content is endgame is pretty pointless, since it is NOT endgame. It's mid-game. Some endgame will be available in Open Beta, try it out then and you'll get a better idea. Trying out 30-35 content now and claiming it as endgame is just going to give you an inaccurate assessment.


Edited, Jul 3rd 2013 1:24pm by BartelX
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#23 Jul 03 2013 at 11:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
Yotis wrote:
Class differentiation.

The fact that all class resources are exactly the same.

That will get old very quickly.

EDIT: And the lack of elemental resistances bugs me.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2013 11:17pm by Yotis


Overly generalization of intricate class mechanics, but I'll bite.

There is quite a bit of class differentiation already.

Here's a breakdown if you really need it, otherwise, skip the spoiler tag.



As stated in the spoiler, Elemental Resistances, on the player's side still exist. They've just been removed on the monsters side for obvious reasons when you look at THM's mechanics.


I think both sides while slightly overreacting have valid points... The battle system certainly has a depth to it, however it's not like it's the most complex system ever created (be reminded however that the developers are striving for exactly this.) They're trying to create a game that appeals to BOTH the hardcore strategist and the casual weekend warrior.

I do tend to agree that the elemental resistance implementation is less than enjoyable. Their reasoning is that they don't want content where one job will have advantage over another... I think this is slightly on the boring side of things. I've personally played THM up to level 25 so far, and the job is actually one of the less interesting that I've played. The depth of the mage has been dramatically decreased from XI given what I've seen up to this point...

Other jobs however provide more complexity than meets the eye... Especially at the higher levels.

BartelX wrote:
Also, trying to comment on level 30-35 content is endgame is pretty pointless, since it is NOT endgame. It's mid-game. Some endgame will be available in Open Beta, try it out then and you'll get a better idea. Trying out 30-35 content now and claiming it as endgame is just going to give you an inaccurate assessment.


Again, this is a moot point to the new gamer... No one is going to give something a chance at level 35, let alone 15, if levels 1-10 stink...

I'm not saying they do in XIV, in fact I find them to be a joy to play though... however this is a personal opinion. For those that are put off by the battle system, they'll never make it to 35+.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2013 1:26pm by ClydesShadow
#24 Jul 03 2013 at 11:28 AM Rating: Good
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The depth of the mage has been dramatically decreased from XI given what I've seen up to this point...


Really? All I ever saw blms do in XI was cast Thunder repeatedly... on everything. Weak to fire? Cast thunder anyways, it's still stronger.

Quote:
Again, this is a moot point to the new gamer... No one is going to give something a chance at level 35, let alone 15, if levels 1-10 stink...

I'm not saying they do in XIV, in fact I find them to be a joy to play though... however this is a personal opinion. For those that are put off by the battle system, they'll never make it to 35+.


Two things: first, this is exactly why the battle system and the storyline itself introduces the different concepts at different levels, starting as low as level 5. You start learning about multiple mob targeting, avoiding AoE, using consumables, working in a group, etc. It builds pretty steadily so that new players can learn as they go.

Second, why are you even talking about 1-10 when we're talking about endgame? If anything is a moot point, it's your comment in general. New players have nothing to do with endgame.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2013 1:31pm by BartelX
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#25 Jul 03 2013 at 11:30 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
THM's setup is the very reason why enemy elemental resistances and weaknesses have been removed.


This is why BRD is so lame. with the above statement, Foe Requiem is virtually useless.
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#26 Jul 03 2013 at 11:37 AM Rating: Good
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reptiletim wrote:
Not trying to prod you but have you played any other Final Fantasy game in the series? Did they turn you off as well?


I did not play FF XI. Maybe that's my problem.
#27 Jul 03 2013 at 11:45 AM Rating: Decent
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I never played 1.0 it just looked horrible. I am however buying (already ordered) this game. I will be playing it on PS3.
#28 Jul 03 2013 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:


Two things: first, this is exactly why the battle system and the storyline itself introduces the different concepts at different levels, starting as low as level 5. You start learning about multiple mob targeting, avoiding AoE, using consumables, working in a group, etc. It builds pretty steadily so that new players can learn as they go.

Second, why are you even talking about 1-10 when we're talking about endgame? If anything is a moot point, it's your comment in general. New players have nothing to do with endgame.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2013 1:31pm by BartelX



The point is, if players who are in the game for an in depth battle system are put off by the simplicity of the battle system in the beginning of the game, they'll never make it to the latter portions to experience the "in-depth" battle system that supposedly await us. I did prefix my statement by saying "new gamer."

(p.s. what's with the bad attitude, did I insult you in some way?)

Edited, Jul 3rd 2013 2:00pm by ClydesShadow
#29 Jul 03 2013 at 12:06 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
The point is, if players who are in the game for an in depth battle system are put off by the simplicity of the battle system in the beginning of the game, they'll never make it to the latter portions to experience the "in-depth" battle system that supposedly await us. I did prefix my statement by saying "new gamer."


Honestly, I haven't seen many threads from people lately who think the battle system is so overly simple that they won't play the game. That seemed to be more of the case before Phase 3, but the changes regarding positioning/mob TP moves/adjusting abilities/removing ability cooldowns/etc. seem to have really firmed up this battle system.

Sure, there's room for improvement, and I'm certain improvements will keep happening... but the foundation of this battle system is fine, and it's no longer something that will drive people away.
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#30 Jul 03 2013 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
The point is, if players who are in the game for an in depth battle system are put off by the simplicity of the battle system in the beginning of the game, they'll never make it to the latter portions to experience the "in-depth" battle system that supposedly await us. I did prefix my statement by saying "new gamer."


Honestly, I haven't seen many threads from people lately who think the battle system is so overly simple that they won't play the game. That seemed to be more of the case before Phase 3, but the changes regarding positioning/mob TP moves/adjusting abilities/removing ability cooldowns/etc. seem to have really firmed up this battle system.

Sure, there's room for improvement, and I'm certain improvements will keep happening... but the foundation of this battle system is fine, and it's no longer something that will drive people away.



I agree, I think the battle system offers a nice mixture of depth and ease of use... while also keeping the players on their toes by requiring dodging of mobs attacks.

I was only commenting in regards to individuals in this particular thread who are slightly put off by the system, they might leave the game before getting to experience some of the better content... I do believe that the first few levels are rather simple and only involve smashing 1,2,1,2... This is probably to be expected though, it is after all the first few levels Smiley: smile
#31 Jul 03 2013 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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PavetlXIV wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
THM's setup is the very reason why enemy elemental resistances and weaknesses have been removed.


This is why BRD is so lame. with the above statement, Foe Requiem is virtually useless.



Suppliant the word "elemental resistance" to 'Magical Resistance'. It's a magical damage received debuff, it's not useless at all - works the same way piercing resistance down does.
#32 Jul 03 2013 at 12:14 PM Rating: Decent
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PavetlXIV wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
THM's setup is the very reason why enemy elemental resistances and weaknesses have been removed.


This is why BRD is so lame. with the above statement, Foe Requiem is virtually useless.


Wouldn't it just mean that the enemy's elemental resistance (for all spells) is set at one value, and Foe Requiem would drop that value by 10%?
#33 Jul 03 2013 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
PavetlXIV wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
THM's setup is the very reason why enemy elemental resistances and weaknesses have been removed.


This is why BRD is so lame. with the above statement, Foe Requiem is virtually useless.



Suppliant the word "elemental resistance" to 'Magical Resistance'. It's a magical damage received debuff, it's not useless at all - works the same way piercing resistance down does.


I see...well that makes sense. Im just really disapointed on BRD mechanics, specificaly the songs.
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#34 Jul 03 2013 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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I never played FFXIV 1.0 but I have been a FF fanboy since the very first game for NES. When FFIV came out for SNES as FF2 I was in heaven, reading Nintendo Power for weeks before the game was finally released and I still play it, even recently. I haven't captured that kind of FF nostalgia again since. VII came close, and XIV is the only other game coming close again.

I did not play XI because it abandoned everything I loved about the series; that "good book" storyline, strong character development and feeling attached to them (Aeris takes the cake). I'm not interested in wandering around aimlessly with little reason to care, or any way to beat the game. A pointless waste of time I thought of all MMOs really.

Fast forward to ARR and they absolutely nailed it for me. The game plays fun as a 1 player, but you get the MMO aspect seamlessly integrated. Granted the character development isn't anything to rave about, but the battle system is. I loathed the battle system in XII. Turn based isn't bad but I really like how they've made it possible to stack different types of skills. The jobs available are perfect. Paladin and Dragoon? Hello Cecil and Kain!

This game is a total blast and I'm hooked, counting down the hours until the next beta session. I've already pre-ordered and I will give this one reason why this game is going to be successful. Square-Enix has done what true fans have been asking for. XIII was an exercise in frustration and this game is a breath of fresh air, and this game has provided everything I felt was missing. I love the FATE system, and the other MMO aspects are the icing on the cake.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2013 2:44pm by ErikHighwind
#35 Jul 03 2013 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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I hate it when people mention something without going into specifics, it leaves no room for conversation to improve those mechanics.

For example: What's specifically wrong about the Bard Songs? There are multiple points to them.

1. One song at a time.
2. Maintenance Cost.
3. Distance to bard.
4. Damage Penalty.

I've an opinion on all of them, of course.

One Song at a time: I don't mind this, it forces Bards to think about who they are supporting. It was pretty much too easy to walk around rotating songs about and support everyone, then deal damage on the side. It made them a permanent staple in parties. Now, they can choose how they're supporting.

Maintance Cost: IMO it's too high right now without any substantial method of restoration. This could be aided by giving Bard access to Shroud of Saints on top of existing methods.

Distance from Bard: Same as One song at a time, I feel this is a non-issue. It gives Bard a positioning mechanic that I feel adds to the depth of the class.

Damage Penalty: While it miffs me a bit, given the fact that Bard is giving damage to everyone in the party through Rain of Death as well as Songs. I do feel as if there should be more effects for the loss of healing ability Bard has suffered in adjustments. Perhaps having the two buff songs providing a small Healing over Time effect as well.

Overall I feel as if there isn't enough trade-off for what was lost in total bard songs. I don't mind the mechanics created for it.
#36 Jul 03 2013 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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ClydesShadow wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
The point is, if players who are in the game for an in depth battle system are put off by the simplicity of the battle system in the beginning of the game, they'll never make it to the latter portions to experience the "in-depth" battle system that supposedly await us. I did prefix my statement by saying "new gamer."


Honestly, I haven't seen many threads from people lately who think the battle system is so overly simple that they won't play the game. That seemed to be more of the case before Phase 3, but the changes regarding positioning/mob TP moves/adjusting abilities/removing ability cooldowns/etc. seem to have really firmed up this battle system.

Sure, there's room for improvement, and I'm certain improvements will keep happening... but the foundation of this battle system is fine, and it's no longer something that will drive people away.



I agree, I think the battle system offers a nice mixture of depth and ease of use... while also keeping the players on their toes by requiring dodging of mobs attacks.

I was only commenting in regards to individuals in this particular thread who are slightly put off by the system, they might leave the game before getting to experience some of the better content... I do believe that the first few levels are rather simple and only involve smashing 1,2,1,2... This is probably to be expected though, it is after all the first few levels Smiley: smile


I could be the problem then. Maybe it's my experience with EQ and WoW. The first few levels kinda bore me to death. I need to stop alt swapping and stick with a class and level it up.

Although y'all's discussion of BRD song mechanics are kinda pushing me (citing EQ1 Bard nostalgia) towards the one class I have yet to touch. Any similarities between bard songs in EQ1 and the songs in FF XIV? (I.e., is there twisting?)
#37 Jul 03 2013 at 12:54 PM Rating: Decent
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ClydesShadow wrote:
The point is, if players who are in the game for an in depth battle system are put off by the simplicity of the battle system in the beginning of the game, they'll never make it to the latter portions to experience the "in-depth" battle system that supposedly await us. I did prefix my statement by saying "new gamer."

(p.s. what's with the bad attitude, did I insult you in some way?)


Nope, not at all. I'm just rather blunt in my responses because I don't like to sugarcoat things. In regards to your statement, new gamers had nothing to do with the comments that were posted. We were discussing combat at endgame, prefacing your comment wiht "new gamer" doesn't make it any less moot. Yes I realize you have to go through the beginning to get to the end, but if people aren't reasonable enough to realize there will be a progression in levels, and that things will gradually become more complex like every other mmo in existence, then I don't think anyone is really going to miss them.

Have you ever played an mmo where the first 5-10 levels aren't just spamming 1-2 or 1-2-3 over and over? I haven't. Also, that's why I made my first point about how the battle system unravels itself out in layers, starting very early to draw people in.


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#38 Jul 03 2013 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
ClydesShadow wrote:
The point is, if players who are in the game for an in depth battle system are put off by the simplicity of the battle system in the beginning of the game, they'll never make it to the latter portions to experience the "in-depth" battle system that supposedly await us. I did prefix my statement by saying "new gamer."

(p.s. what's with the bad attitude, did I insult you in some way?)


Nope, not at all. I'm just rather blunt in my responses because I don't like to sugarcoat things. In regards to your statement, new gamers had nothing to do with the comments that were posted. We were discussing combat at endgame, prefacing your comment wiht "new gamer" doesn't make it any less moot. Yes I realize you have to go through the beginning to get to the end, but if people aren't reasonable enough to realize there will be a progression in levels, and that things will gradually become more complex like every other mmo in existence, then I don't think anyone is really going to miss them.

Have you ever played an mmo where the first 5-10 levels aren't just spamming 1-2 or 1-2-3 over and over? I haven't. Also, that's why I made my first point about how the battle system unravels itself out in layers, starting very early to draw people in.




Just because the point I made didn't stick exactly to the narrative you were speaking about doesn't make it irrelevant, I'm sorry if you don't understand the concept of an adjunct point.

#39 Jul 03 2013 at 2:12 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:

Have you ever played an mmo where the first 5-10 levels aren't just spamming 1-2 or 1-2-3 over and over? I haven't. Also, that's why I made my first point about how the battle system unravels itself out in layers, starting very early to draw people in.





Guild Wars 2 you can learn every ability for every equippable weapon by level 2 if you wanted to.

Thats also why it gets boring fast, in my opinion.
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#40 Jul 03 2013 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
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ClydesShadow wrote:
Just because the point I made didn't stick exactly to the narrative you were speaking about doesn't make it irrelevant, I'm sorry if you don't understand the concept of an adjunct point.


Your point had nothing to do with the topic. It was a discussion of combat at endgame from someone who had already clearly stated they wanted to try it out at endgame, meaning not a new gamer. That has nothing to do with new gamers, hence making your point irrelevant. Had you made it a separate argument, stating simply that new gamers would have a different approach to the combat engine than those at endgame, I would have agreed with you. Instead, you called my point moot by using something completely unrelated. It wasn't supplementary, it was unrelated in the context of the argument. That's not an adjunct point.

Quote:
Guild Wars 2 you can learn every ability for every equippable weapon by level 2 if you wanted to.

Thats also why it gets boring fast, in my opinion.


Ah true, forgot about GW2... even so you'd have at most 5 skills. And yeah, I agree... that's what I found boring about it. Same 5 skills for most of the game.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2013 4:21pm by BartelX
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#41 Jul 03 2013 at 2:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ah true, forgot about GW2... even so you'd have at most 5 skills. And yeah, I agree... that's what I found boring about it. Same 5 skills for most of the game.


It also didn't really matter what you did (and I'm talking about fights at the level cap, not in the initial 10 to 15 levels). I never found any real benefit of stunning anything, and it didn't matter really where you stood in relation to the mob. Some moves were AoE, some weren't. Either way, you could pretty much hit whatever buttons you wanted, and as long as you were the right level for the area, you weren't in any danger.

And yeah, allowing all the skills to be learned right off the bat was a huge mistake.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2013 1:30pm by Thayos
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#42 Jul 03 2013 at 2:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's kinda like dating (although I haven't dated in 10 years, since I met my wife).

You need an initial attraction; but you know that there's something about her, or him, after the first few dates that suggests you'll be together for a while.

I've dated women who were a bit more flashy, wore a bit more make-up and were in some cases prettier, but I didn't feel that connection, or substance behind that connection, like I do with my wife...

Yes, my wife is ARR.

Smiley: eek

Seriously though, I think ARR will be initially widely successful but like most MMOs people will get bored, or not appreciate the atmosphere in ARR the way fans might.

If updates, patches and content is added at a good pace, if Yoshi can keep up his level of enthusiasm for a few more years (I don't see how this is possible and actually see him resigning within a year or two because of stress) then ARR will have a pretty large sub base (not record breaking) for a while.
#43 Jul 03 2013 at 3:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Seriously though, I think ARR will be initially widely successful but like most MMOs people will get bored, or not appreciate the atmosphere in ARR the way fans might.


Yeah, this is really the nature of the beast. A lot of younger gamers just don't have the attention spans to really immerse themselves in just one MMO. You could argue that WoW is an exception, but even WoW is losing tons of subscribers, and many subscribers who I know are extremely on-again, off-again kinds of players.

I agree though that FFXIV will eventually settle down with a good-size playerbase, just as FFXI did, and that the game will be around for years to come.
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#44 Jul 03 2013 at 3:25 PM Rating: Default
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Yeah, Yoshi-P looks like he's about to die. I'm sure it's especially stressful that the game is coming out in August. Something tells me he didn't come up with that release date himself.
#45Ostia, Posted: Jul 03 2013 at 4:05 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Different class mechanics Smiley: lol Oh gods you guys try to hard sometimes
#46 Jul 03 2013 at 4:12 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
ClydesShadow wrote:
Just because the point I made didn't stick exactly to the narrative you were speaking about doesn't make it irrelevant, I'm sorry if you don't understand the concept of an adjunct point.


Your point had nothing to do with the topic. It was a discussion of combat at endgame from someone who had already clearly stated they wanted to try it out. That has nothing to do with new gamers, hence making your point irrelevant. Had you made it a separate argument, stating simply that new gamers would have a different approach to the combat engine than those at endgame, I would have agreed with you. Instead, you called my point moot by using something completely unrelated. It wasn't supplementary, it was unrelated in the context of the argument. That's not an adjunct point.


The previous individual in the thread said that he was dismayed by the lack of depth of the battle system... I did not call your point moot, in fact I agree with the statement you made, I said the point is moot to a new gamer who doesn't give the game a proper chance because the he dislikes the battle system (as it related to the individual the discussion was being had with.)
#47 Jul 03 2013 at 5:29 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Different class mechanics Smiley: lol Oh gods you guys try to hard sometimes



Just because you can't understand the complexity of the system doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

It's funny Hyrist writes a well thought out description of the mechanics... you respond with a mocking 1-liner Smiley: rolleyes

Edited, Jul 3rd 2013 7:36pm by ClydesShadow
#48Ostia, Posted: Jul 03 2013 at 5:41 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Complexity.... Indeed Smiley: lol Please i am actually pretty sure now, that most of you are casual players, that do not understand theorycrafting nor how combat works in this game, i still cannot even understand how some of you are even allowed to post still, considering some of you have been wrong about the game 100% of the time, i remember clearly when i said in Beta Phase 2 that combat was a major problem and that they will need to address it, yet you all crucify me "Oh ostia you are trolling, combat is fine" yet before Beta Phase 3 started what did yoshi P released ? Oh a statement about combat being addressed Smiley: lol Guess i was not trolling huh ?
#49 Jul 03 2013 at 5:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Another big part of the reason that a lot of people aren't excited about the beta registrant numbers is that they're inflated. Don't get me wrong here; I'm not trying to say they're artificially inflated by SE to make the game look good, but inflated by people who register multiple times with various email addresses trying to guarantee a spot. In the very thread you referenced, there was someone who flat out said they had registered under 5 different alias.

I do give more weight to reviews, but still not much. We're still in the phase of the game where things could change suddenly. Just like others have said, wait until after the game is released to try and gauge what sort of momentum the game carried over from beta testing and how long it's sustained for.
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#50 Jul 03 2013 at 6:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
Complexity.... Indeed Smiley: lol Please i am actually pretty sure now, that most of you are casual players, that do not understand theorycrafting nor how combat works in this game, i still cannot even understand how some of you are even allowed to post still...


One of us in this thread was recently and very publicly on the edge of not being allowed to post here ever again. Something about the way he mercilessly attacks mild-mannered posters and then makes wild accusations against the admins who try to reign him in. You may have heard of him.

Ostia wrote:
...considering some of you have been wrong about the game 100% of the time, i remember clearly when i said in Beta Phase 2 that combat was a major problem and that they will need to address it, yet you all crucify me "Oh ostia you are trolling, combat is fine" yet before Beta Phase 3 started what did yoshi P released ? Oh a statement about combat being addressed Smiley: lol Guess i was not trolling huh ?


Offering a reasoned criticism of the game is exactly what this forum is for. Calling everyone who doesn't agree with you "wrong about the game 100% of the time" is trolling. It's all in the delivery, really. Making it about the game and not about the people is a good place to start.
#51Ostia, Posted: Jul 03 2013 at 6:44 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Wild accusations ? Such as ? If i had been making false wild accusations as you say... Would i not be banned right now ? Funny how i am not ?
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