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#52 Jul 03 2013 at 6:56 PM Rating: Good
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To be clear, little substantively has changed about the combat when you look at it purely from the perspectives of a Lancer, Conjurer, and Archer.

When it was argued that 'combat was fine'. Three stipulations were placed on that argument.

1. Low level is boring by nature, as it serves as a tutorial. These complaints against low level sitll haven't changed - because the function works as designed.

2. It was called out, by me among others, in fact, that the core issue with combat was the monsters that had been the same since alpha and were in fact just placeholders. This proved to be entirely correct and was the major change in combat.

3. That there needed to be changes to TP expense and regeneration. This problem, in fact, still exists. TP is way too liberal in the beginning levels and far too restrictive in the later levels, even when considering abilities. The curve is inverted from how it should feel, in my opinion.

The class depth was there in beta 1 and hasn't changed much at all.

Lancer, for example had all of one substantive change to the class in terms of skill differences: Heavy Thrust. Its effects presumably switched with Disembowel, and instead it became a flanking attack as a two move combo initiator. Disembowel inherited Heavy Thrust's effects and place in the secondary 3 hit combo, while retaining its higher level positioning.

Nobody under level 38 is going to realize this unless they study the skill lists.

Of the known classes Archer received the most changes, and primarily in traits/additional effects, where it's key synergy method was lacking. (They did get 2 abilities completely changed out, however.)

Each of the initial classes remain at their core very much the same: Lancer is still about straight combos. (When it was complained all there was to do was press 1,2 over and over again.) Archer still relies on chance to take advantage of it's skill synergy. And Conjurer still has to shift in and out of Cleric's Stance to be able to use its full functions effectively.



So no, statements correcting highly generalist complaints concerning the game were in fact accurate, often more accurate than the complaints hurled.

As far as forum behavior. One does not incite the direct wrath of Kaolain by doing no wrong. In fact, getting that close to the edge of being banned means the opposite.

#53 Jul 03 2013 at 7:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:


Also i am still waiting on those huge differences between Pug and Lan



Let me quote myself to save time:

Quote:
Lancer:

- Wide assortment of DoT skills.
- Highest Potency Single Attack
- Seperate Combos designed for burst damage.
- Highest layering of damage scaling skills.

Mechanically, Lancer is your typical combo and DoT class. The Full Thrust combo is your Spike Damage cycle, with Dragoon accenting it with Jumps for additional, TP free damage, as well as multiple stuns. Conversely to Pugilist, Lancer's very much about going 'All In' while having all of the damage buffs up to spike as much damage as possible while the +50 % Damage buffs are up, and then maintaining layers of damage afterwards to continue out damage.

Pugilist:

- Highest possible skill-speed stacking.
- Highest single crit buff.
- Endless Combo Cycle
- Fast Burn-out at max DPS.
- Decent Off-tanking potential.

While having difficulty currently with burning through TP quickly Pugilist has the best Combo Variability of all classes, due to the fact that each 'Stance' has multiple skills by level 50 to choose from, each of which vary in usefulness depending on context. This is on top of cooldown abilities Free of TP. Style wise, combat takes a rythmic cycle between the three stances while dancing around the opponent to get the appropriate bonuses on the attacks. In Contrast to Lancer, Pugilist is about the build up of damage bonuses over cycles, to the point of being incredibly hard hitting continuously. But, as stated before pushing for this max DPS burns out TP quickly, so it becomes a balancing act.


To list out more:
Lancer is Piercing, Puglist is Blunt, the two have serperate debuffs which, unfortunately for Puglist, Blunt does not currently have another class that benefits from. Lancer Shares Piercing with Archer.
Lancer's Combo's End, Puglist's do not.
Lancer's Positioning is a requirement for initiating combos. Puglist, however, only enters positioning for bonus effects, and is irrelevant to chaining combos.

Lancer no longer has Sustained or stance Buffed. This is due to changes in Life and Power Surge no longer stacking or in fact being duration based skills. Conversely, Puglist has now gained more sustained buffs in Greased Lightning, and the MP upkeep requirement of Fists of Fire, Earth and Wind have all been removed, as well as their effects changed - further separating the classes.

I could go on...
#54 Jul 03 2013 at 7:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
Wild accusations ? Such as ? If i had been making false wild accusations as you say... Would i not be banned right now ? Funny how i am not ?

Now on your next silly point... If the producer of the game, comes out and say's "Yes we have read your feedback, we will address the combat system" which is what i said that they need to do.... I am trolling ? That is the same argument, as for why i am called a troll, i said in order for XIV to succeed it needed to be more mainstream, and incorporate more of the standard features of MMOS. It needed to be more akin to a WOW than to a XI .... Which is exactly what Yoshi P did.... yet i am still the troll ? Telling people they are wrong when they are wrong is not trolling, is telling the truth, do you even know what trolling is ?


I know you may not believe it, but I don't mind you Ostia. You even crack me up sometimes. I can see now you have a lot of friends here who don't mind your antics. You're like a grumpy grandpa who complains about everything but secretly loves everybody around him. ****, you even love FFXIV, though you'd never admit it.

You've called me an idiot dozens of times and I've never let it bother me. But you know, there's going to be more and more fresh faces coming to Zam the closer the release date gets, and they're going to have fresh perspectives on the game, but not necessarily my thick skin. You'll have to learn to focus your raging in a way that's less personal. I can't speak for the site, but telling newcomers, "I can't believe they allow you to still post here," is not what this place is about, and it's going to get you in trouble.

I know you're out of extra chances, and people will be sad to see you go, and if that means anything to you, just try to lay off the personal attacks, or at least learn to leave the new kids alone for awhile. Try punching out lolgaxe or something, instead. Smiley: lol
#55 Jul 03 2013 at 7:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'll be frank, he needs to not be throwing any punches at all in the situation he's in.

If you want to tell someone they're wrong, you do it politely, and you back it up with evidence. You don't make the most general statments and complaints, then, when anything changes, tramp around saying "I'm right, I didn't do anything wrong because I was right!" One, that's incorrect, as evidence and identified by the many times you've been spoken to by Wint and Kaolain, Ostia. Two, it's also rude, perpetuating the problem that has you on a knife's edge to begin with.

Now, to be completely honest, you've improved and people are making note of it. So please let's not have a regression just because Square Enix actually listens to the kind individuals who took the time to give them concise feedback instead of arguing and flame-baiting.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2013 9:44pm by Hyrist
#56 Jul 03 2013 at 7:48 PM Rating: Good
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*Sigh*

Friday can't get here soon enough! Seems like there is a lot of beta withdrawal going on Smiley: wink
#57 Jul 03 2013 at 7:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Glad to see Ostia is going back to his old ways. We did need something to hold us over.

Regarding Ostia:

It's not you bashing the game that causes the hostility. It's you bashing the people behind the opinions.

Yeah, I know. It's a forum, you're not supposed to take the insults/ratedowns/etc personally, but it does say a lot about you. "Why are they still allowed to post here?" Because it's a forum, and they have an opinion to share? However, your attacks go beyond the game and attack their intelligence and credibility for no other reason than you disagreeing.
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#58Ostia, Posted: Jul 03 2013 at 8:28 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) No you cannot go on and on... Also you are trying really really hard, to over exaggerate a system that is shallow, and has no difference whatsoever between one class and the other, as far as abilities are concerned, Lancer and Puglist have no fundamental difference on how they Operate. Both have basically the same moves, they are mirror classes with minor differences, they both have the same positioning requirement in the same skills, one is behind, one is flaking, both do the same, X potency and 20% dmg buff, both have a slow, tho lancer has no requirement for this, pug must use heymaker which is stupid, but whatever, both have evade, there is little to no difference between the two classes as far as abilities are Concerned. The only difference is how far superior Lancer is to Puglist as far as DMG output, is not even a fair comparison, you can ask BartelX Lancer does an insane amount more of dmg than a puglist can do, in any situation, burst, prolong dps wise, long or short fight, Lancer will come on top always, is a no contest, not only can lancer tank better than pug, they will beat a mob with easy, and help the pug kill his mob also, now since we only have had seen encounters up to 30-35, maybe at higher levels TP does play it's function as a resource, but as off now, there is no need to manage it, all you got to do is press keys as soon as they come up, and beat the mob, with no remorse of how your TP bar looks like.
#59 Jul 03 2013 at 8:41 PM Rating: Default
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Also how am i throwing punches ? I did not bring koalian or wint into the conversation, somebody else did.... Smiley: rolleyes i just said there are some people who are very sensitive, just how there are some that are not sensitive at all, is like when you people say, "We got some negatives people around here" yet that is not see as throwing punches ? Funny how that works
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#60 Jul 03 2013 at 8:46 PM Rating: Good
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If I had a nickel for every time you called someone "an idiot" for disagreeing with them in all the threads I've seen the last few months.

Ah, man. I could retire.
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#61 Jul 03 2013 at 8:47 PM Rating: Good
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I've ran low on TP and just had to auto attack for a bit on a few boss fights and FATE NMs so far. MP also.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2013 10:53pm by TwistedOwl
#62Ostia, Posted: Jul 03 2013 at 9:33 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) 4 Times actually, I called BartelX an idiot 2 times, then some guy with a red name i called him an idiot last, but only after he called me something first.
#63 Jul 03 2013 at 10:13 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:


Am i wrong ?



About everything you've stated so far, yes. You see, you have a poor habit of being entirely generalistic. I'm not 'trying' anything. I'm stating the facts, you're glossing over them to try to better a very flawed and opinionated argument.

Quote:
No you cannot go on and on...


Yes I can.
- Lancer has a FORCED Critical Skill that is tied in to their self-restoration ability.
- Pugilist's Self Restoration ability is separate, and the Critical enhancement skill is a timed buff with a duration attached.

Want to go another round? I have more.


Quote:
Also you are trying really really hard, to over exaggerate a system that is shallow, and has no difference whatsoever between one class and the other, as far as abilities are concerned, Lancer and Puglist have no fundamental difference on how they Operate.


I'll explain the fundamental difference once again for you ,as you seem to fail to understand it.

Lancer is a burst physical damage class. You stack up buffs, push as your damage for as long as the durration sits, and wait for the cooldowns again to burst out your peak damage.

Puglist is a scaling physical damage class. You maintain your damage buffs for as long as possible while doling continual damage.

How they operate couldn't be further apart for the fact that they're both physical DPS.

Quote:
Now i have not tried archer, but i am pretty sure, they have basically the same techniques as both Lancer or Puglist, a dot, some sort of positioning gimick, a slow, and a 10-20% increase dmg technique, oh and an evade.

You're being antagonistic to the core today, aren't you Ostia?

Archer has no positioning based skills. Archer is the only physical class with a Damage over time based "gimick" as you so call it. It's skillet is actually closer in line with Thamaturge in that regard. The Trait that causes Bloodletter recast to reset is similar to Thunder's Passive Proc. The major difference here is Thundercloud is self-contained within the Thunder debuff itself, and functions only to enhance thunder. Windbit and Venomous Bite effect Bloodletter, a completely separate skill, and resets its cooldown, it does not enhance damage. The proc enables the Archer to use a TP free skill provided the effect triggers once in the 5 DoT Cycles before its cooldown naturally completes.


Quote:
Both have basically the same moves, they are mirror classes with minor differences


Not even close.
Quote:

they both have the same positioning requirement in the same skills, one is behind, one is flaking,


Incorrect.

Lancer has a singular Rear attack that is their attack initiation for the Chaos Thrust combo, and a Single flanking attack that is the initiation for their Ring of Thorns Combo. These attacks are required to initiate the combo effect on the following skill(s).

Puglist has 2 of each and none of them are required to continue combo.

Additionally there are no positional requirements on any of Lancer's Skills beyond their initial attack. Pugilist has Positional Bonuses applied to the Oppu-oppu and Raptor forms, one each. meaning you can intiate and follow up from the same angle, or opt to switch mid cycle.

It should be more noted that Puglist's attacks work more in cycles than they do as a combo.


Quote:
X potency and 20% dmg buff, both have a slow, tho lancer has no requirement for this, pug must use heymaker which is stupid, but whatever, both have evade, there is little to no difference between the two classes as far as abilities are Concerned.


10% reduction in resistances in both cases. Also, Lancer does not have an evasion skill. It is a parry-rate up which is woefully inadequate in their hands.

As far as the DPS debate. You'll have to argue with BG's parsers on that matter. I won't touch epeen contests (especially if you say I'm winning.)

As there is already multiple threads on TP starvation in the feedback section, I won't argue that issue either. You can go ahead and see if your argument holds water with them. I cannot see it as anything short of flamebaiting or willful ignorance on your part. TP 'management' becomes an issue as early as level 20 in my own experience. The current way TP works is unsustainable for long fights.
_____________________________________________________________________

A note on how insultingly generlist you are being:

I'm going to provide you with an example of your demeanor. In the quoted section is an analogous argument used for only for expression, and not as insult.

Quote:
There is nothing special about you. You are poorly designed, and boring like all other creatures on this planet. After all, you are composed of mostly water, eat and drink for sustanance, and even have the ability to communicate with other creatures of your species. There are only minor things differentiating you, Ostia, for something like a Lion, or a Dog. We'll completly ignore the fact that they're entirely different species with different methods of meeting the goals of eating and mating. Nor will we look at the fundmental differences in bone structure, body type, etc. You find food, you eat it. You have teeth to cut your meat with, eyes to see with, and are able to vocalize emotion.

Therefore, there is nothing separating you form an animal.


This is how you sound. It's instigating and needs to stop.









Edited, Jul 4th 2013 12:15am by Hyrist
#64 Jul 03 2013 at 10:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
You want a perfect example of your biased (And i do not mean you, i mean the community as a whole) If i where to make a thread stating the class unbalance that actually exist in the game, and how stupid some classes are designed, i would get downvoted called a noob, a troll, an idiot, etc etc. Even if yoshi comes out an states the same thing i do, i would still be the troll the idiot etc etc. because you as a whole perceive that as a negative bash on FFXIV.


I'm calling BS on this, Ostia. It's not necessarily what you say, but just how you say it. There's no wiggle room with your opinions. You're absolutely 100% correct about everything all the time, and post it in a very douchebaggy way most of the time.

I would actually love to read a well thought out thread about things that you(or anyone) think are wrong with the game and ways to possibly make it better. As long as it's not put out there in the bashing tone that you and a few others always insist upon using.

I actually don't mind you at all, though, and would hate to see you get banned to be honest. Even if I do disagree with you, or don't like the way you post most of the time. When I see your name pop up I just think to myself, "Ok what's crazy ole Ostia about to stir up now".

Edited, Jul 4th 2013 12:46am by Hatamaz
#65 Jul 03 2013 at 10:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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My only real concern is that the game’s subscription model may turn people off from the outset, and never give the game a real chance to shine.


I'm really sick and tired of seeing this exact same sentence, or a version of it, in every single early impression article.
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#66 Jul 03 2013 at 10:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you guys would just ignore him...

Ostia, for your part, you sound like an *******, plain and simple. While it's not a ban-able offense I'm tempted to mute you for a few days until you calm the **** down.
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#67 Jul 03 2013 at 11:07 PM Rating: Good
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Deleted. Posted when I was mad about it and when I woke up, didnt care.

Happy 4th of July!

Edited, Jul 4th 2013 7:42am by Stilivan
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#68 Jul 04 2013 at 7:38 AM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
but if you start throwing out names at me, just because you feel like it, i should be able to do the same,


Seriously? Name calling bothers you that much? Is this elementary school?

Ostia wrote:
also i have yet to call anybody an idiot on this thread, or in any other recently, yet you guys are acting like i am personally attacking somebody in here... I said class mechanics are not that very different from each other... How is that a personal attack ?


You either have the memory of a goldfish or the communication tact of a neanderthal. You essentially said anyone who believes there lies depth in the battle system should be banned from the forums... scroll back a page if you forgot. You see, adults see attacks on their intelligence as "insults." Children see being called an "idiot" as an insult.

Edited, Jul 4th 2013 9:43am by ClydesShadow
#69 Jul 04 2013 at 7:50 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Yes I can.
- Lancer has a FORCED Critical Skill that is tied in to their self-restoration ability.
- Pugilist's Self Restoration ability is separate, and the Critical enhancement skill is a timed buff with a duration attached.

Want to go another round? I have more.


That is not a mechanic difference in the classes, those are different attributes to Abilities. Second wind does not make puglist a mechanically different class than lancer, since lancer can sub second wind, in fact any class can, therefore is not a core mechanic of puglist, core mechanic abilities cannot be subed at all.

Quote:
I'll explain the fundamental difference once again for you ,as you seem to fail to understand it.

Lancer is a burst physical damage class. You stack up buffs, push as your damage for as long as the durration sits, and wait for the cooldowns again to burst out your peak damage.

Puglist is a scaling physical damage class. You maintain your damage buffs for as long as possible while doling continual damage.

How they operate couldn't be further apart for the fact that they're both physical DPS.


^^^ See that right there just showed me you have no idea what you are talking about.

Burst Damage: Burst damage is a term used to describe dealing high amounts of damage in a very short period of time.

Lancer and Pugilist are both Burst Damage Dealers! Lancer has "Blood for Blood" a level 34 ability which Increases damage by 30% for 20 Seconds, it's cool down is 80 Seconds. Pugilist has "Internal Release" a level 12 ability which increases Critical hit rate by 30% for 12 seconds, it's cool down is 60 Seconds! Both of those abilities are burst damage abilities, since they will allow both classes to deal a higher % of damage for a short period of Time! Now if lancer did not had "Blood for Blood" it would not be a burst damage class, since it's damage per second, would come from sustainable damage from start to finish with out having the ability to increase it for a short period of time, but the same would apply to Pugilist if it did not had "Internal Release" since then it's damage would come strictly from keeping it's rotation Up!

Therefore mechanic wise both classes are Burst Damaging Classes. Keeping a rotation is not a class mechanic, every class has a rotation for ideal damage per Second. So they actually do work exactly the Same.

Quote:
Incorrect.

Lancer has a singular Rear attack that is their attack initiation for the Chaos Thrust combo, and a Single flanking attack that is the initiation for their Ring of Thorns Combo. These attacks are required to initiate the combo effect on the following skill(s).

Puglist has 2 of each and none of them are required to continue combo.

Additionally there are no positional requirements on any of Lancer's Skills beyond their initial attack. Pugilist has Positional Bonuses applied to the Oppu-oppu and Raptor forms, one each. meaning you can intiate and follow up from the same angle, or opt to switch mid cycle.

It should be more noted that Puglist's attacks work more in cycles than they do as a combo.


Again, you have no idea what you are talking About.

Lancer has "Impulse Drive" potency 100, 180 when delivered from Behind. They also have "Heavy Trust" potency 100, 170 when delivered from the flank, increases damage by 10% for 12 Seconds. Pugilist has "Snap Punch" potency 140, 180 when delivered from the Flank. They also have "Twin Sankes" potency 100, 140 when delivered from the flank, increases damage by 10% for 10 seconds, also that move is required to continue combo, you stated no pugilist abilities that where required to combo, needed Positioning. And they have "True Strike" potency 150, chance for critical damage increase of 5% if delivered from behind, yet another move that requires positioning to continue combo, those are two now, yet you said pugilist required none, i just gave you Two!

Here is the bottom line, both classes are equal mechanic wise, they are both burst damage capable, they both have positioning skills, even if pugilist does has one more, you can still only use two if you want to keep your rotation, just like Lancer. Therefore rotation wise, they are both then confined into positioning, in order to deal the most possible amount of Damage.

There is no room here for discussion, it is not an opinion, there is no disagreeing, there is only Facts! And the fact is both classes are the same, they even have the same abilities, they both get a dot, they bot get a slow, they both get a stun, they both have a burst damage ability, they both even have the same AOE Ability! "Doom Spike" Lancer ability, 135 potency deals damage to enemies in a straight line before You. "Howling Fist" Pugilist 190 potency, deals damage to enemies in a straight line before You.

Now i am not trying to be an *** to you, or to anybody, if you or anybody else does not believe me, here check out for yourself:

http://xivdb.com/?search/!filters/IlNLSUxMUzpBQ0FfSU5HQU1FXzE6QVNBX1BVR0lMSVNUOkFTQV9TS0lMTDpBT0FfQU9BTFZMX0FPQURFU0M6Ig==
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#70 Jul 04 2013 at 7:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
Again, you have no idea what you are talking About.


You see, Ostia. It's sentences like that why people can't talk to you...
#71 Jul 04 2013 at 8:15 AM Rating: Default
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ClydesShadow wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Again, you have no idea what you are talking About.


You see, Ostia. It's sentences like that why people can't talk to you...


Biased much Shadow ? What about sentences like this ?

Quote:
I'll explain the fundamental difference once again for you ,as you seem to fail to understand it.


Oh right, since he is saying that I fail is acceptable, but if i say he knows nothing of what he is talking about, even tho i am actually proving he knows nothing of what he is talking about.... That is an issue... Yeah! There is no difference in either quote, we are both saying the other has no idea what he is talking about, but you only took issue with me.... If i where to change it to "You have failed to prove that both classes are fundamentally different, and here is how you failed"

Would that have been of your approval ? Would you have up voted it ?
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