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Common Misconception of Final Fantasy Games?Follow

#1 Jul 06 2013 at 1:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Now I talk to someone on World of Warcraft about Final Fantasy games and he is more of a Kingdom Hearts fan and he says he doesn't play Final Fantasy that much because he claims its turned base but he has only played Final Fantasy Crisis Core and a little bit of FF XIII-1 which I can assume is very turn-based. Now I know there are turn-based games in Final Fantasy like Final Fantasy Tactics and X. FF 10 seems to be as turn-based as the series could get. When I think of turn based games, chess comes in mind. The person also thinks FF XIII is a turn-based game which confuses me. The battle system in FF XIII-1 seems more like a active time battle system due to the fact that pace action is really fast. In other words you wait for a bar to fill up and once it gets past a certain point you will be able to attack the enemy and if you do nothing you would get slaughtered by the enemy since they will continue to go regardless of whether you select your commands or not. I told him this but he never responded or created any argument to explain to me why it is a turn-based game. I also asked Trade Chat due to the amount of people there but no one seemed interested to respond. It's kind of annoying how I'm not getting an explanation, especially if its just ignorance coming out of people who have maybe played the game series only once like a 7-10 years ago?
#2 Jul 06 2013 at 4:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Now my question to you and your friend is: What's wrong with a turned based game? We really can't give you an explanation if your friend is being dumb.
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#3 Jul 06 2013 at 5:39 AM Rating: Good
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14 isn't turn based. For a WoW player you can think of it as WoW with a Final Fantasy wrapper. Of course it's more than that but that's how I've been explaining it to MY WoW friends.
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#6 Jul 06 2013 at 5:55 AM Rating: Good
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You really can't change someone's opinion in that regards. They have to want to try it with an open mind.

I have a friend who absolutely loves FFVII but I loaned him FFIX and he turned it off and hates it because it "has four person parties". I kid you not.

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#7 Jul 06 2013 at 6:36 AM Rating: Decent
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FF1-13 are turn based.... So he is not wrong, FF is primordially turn based, XI and XIV are not because they are MMOS.
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#8 Jul 06 2013 at 7:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'd argue a global cooldown imposes a turn limit for the duration of its activity, but hey, the guy wants to deprive himself of entertainment.

Part of why the old games were turn-based was because of system limitations. Even more action-y pseudo-fighter RPGs like the Tales started off as side-scrollers before jumping into 3D planes for combat, kind of like how Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter was before 3D arenas became more of a thing, too.

Suppose this just leads me to the old argument that real RPG fans don't care about stuff like graphics or game mechanics as long as there's a good story. I don't quite agree, as eyesores and terrible combat do turn me off, but I guess as someone who grew up on FF1 and earlier, I'm more tolerant of "dated" gameplay. And ultimately, this rejection sounds like it's coming from someone under the age of 18.
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#9 Jul 06 2013 at 8:38 AM Rating: Good
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Traditional turn base= Battle are not real time, player A takes turn, then player b, no element of time.
Traditional Active Time Bar= Still turn based, defined by character speed, ATB adds an element of time.
Conditional turn base= Same as turn base, but a graphical timeline is shown, and you can manipulate that timeline or swap characters.
Active Dimension Battle= Same concept as ATB except charge time was added(cooldown on skill)
Segmented ATB= Same concept as traditional ATB except each action cost atb slots, you can do actions before the atb gauge is full.
Cooldowns= Are time restrictions put on skills, affected or unaffected by character speed.

So Final Fantasy 1-3 are traditional turn base, FF IV-IX are traditional atb, FFX is conditional turn base, XI and XII are versions of ADB,
XIII and XIII-2 are segmented atb. All Final Fantasies are turn-based, if the element of real time is added it stops being traditional turn-base. A cooldown system is not an actual main battle system unless character speed was absent and all skills are governed by the cooldown including standard attacks.

Final Fantasy XI has individual cooldowns and I think XIV has a global cooldowns. Since ATB was introduced I think most FF had a toggle for active or wait.

Edited, Jul 6th 2013 10:42am by sandpark
#10 Jul 06 2013 at 9:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thing is, in both XI and XIV, you're still swinging even if you're not actually hitting any of the actions buttons.
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#11 Jul 06 2013 at 9:05 AM Rating: Default
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Yes and they are still turn-based which is a good thing in my opinion. Smiley: grin
#12 Jul 06 2013 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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I have no problem with turn-based games unless I don't know how to play it. FF X was one of my favorite games. I think he assumes FF XIV ARR is going to be turn based.
#13 Jul 06 2013 at 1:36 PM Rating: Decent
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I think many people have different interuptations of what type of battle system 13 is , I have basically explained why I think it is not. My dad isn't interested in playing XIII just because he doesn't think its turn based. Now I can tell the combat difference between XIII when you compare it to Call of Duty or Kingdom Hearts but XIII combat system isn't as slow as some might think.

Edited, Jul 6th 2013 3:41pm by IvanStine207
#14 Jul 06 2013 at 3:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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IvanStine207 wrote:
I think many people have different interuptations of what type of battle system 13 is , I have basically explained why I think it is not. My dad isn't interested in playing XIII just because he doesn't think its turn based. Now I can tell the combat difference between XIII when you compare it to Call of Duty or Kingdom Hearts but XIII combat system isn't as slow as some might think.

Edited, Jul 6th 2013 3:41pm by IvanStine207


FFXIII is the same as FFIV-VIII -- it's ATB.

Frankly, despite how people want to argue this, your dad's right as it isn't turn based. However, neither are any of the ATB Final Fantasy games.

Turn based implies it happens outside of time and either it's individual or party issued commands before a turn is executed. Final Fantasy I-III are turn based, Dragon Quest is turn based, Lost Odyssey is turn based, FFX is turn based, Blue Dragon is turn based.... ATB isn't turn based. The Civilization series is another example of turn based even if it's not an RPG. Time has no meaning, only the order of turns.

ATB is a predecessor to MMO combat and despite what people want to argue TB does not mean turn based. ATB relies on your AGI/Speed rating while the GCD is defined by whichever MMO you choose. In both situations everything's in real time and thinking about doing something doesn't cause the enemy to stop moving. Yes, I'm aware you can activate "Wait" or even pause the game but the principle and design of the combat systems are entirely the same -- cooldown driven.

Turn based means time has no meaning in combat: only four of the Final Fantasy flagship titles uses this (I, II, III, and X). The rest are all evolutions of the various Time Based (notice, TIME based, not turn) combat systems be it ADB, CTB, ADB, or RTB. FFXIII (ADB) is nothing more than the usual ATB but combos can be stored up or you can go as soon as your cooldown's refreshed. Even Chrono Trigger's merely an evolution of ATB.

sandpark wrote:
Yes and they are still turn-based which is a good thing in my opinion. Smiley: grin


Except they're not.

Edited, Jul 6th 2013 5:21pm by Viertel
#15 Jul 06 2013 at 4:28 PM Rating: Default
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Yes they are turn based Viertel. The character speed determines who goes first or last or who gets more turns. That means there is an order of turns aka turn-based. ATB has nothing to do with cooldowns. Cooldowns apply to skills not character speed. To say otherwise is to neglect auto attack speed. If that were the case you could take FFXI dragoon or monk and they would attack the same amount of times and at the same rate per 60 seconds.
#16 Jul 08 2013 at 5:15 PM Rating: Default
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This link is to shed light on my discussion for the atb.
Watch the 2:53 mark when the creator Ito himself talks about the ADB.



http://www.1up.com/features/final-fantasy-hiroyuki-ito-science


Another interview with Minagawa, Ito's right hand man on later titles.




What are your thoughts on Final Fantasy as a series?
Minagawa:
It's about overdoing things.
It's a force of nature.
You can't sit back and build these games logically.
You have to throw caution to the wind.
You have to laugh at the absurdity of the task.
I think you can really feel the series as it's own force.


They are working on a big project which is not FFXV after all.
http://ffxvhome.com/2012/7/19/rumour-final-fantasy-xv-to-be-announced-this-year-information-explosion

Edited, Jul 8th 2013 7:17pm by sandpark
#17 Jul 08 2013 at 6:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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A "turn" is an ancient gaming concept going back to prehistoric times. It means a period of time where one player can perform one or more actions and no one else can (with some exceptions, of course), with the idea that when that turn ends, a new turn will start granting a new set of actions to another player (or even the same player if the rules call for it).

FFX is thoroughly turn-based. It's very clear when it is someone's turn, who's turn will be next, and even the monsters in that game wait for their turn in a rotation shared with the player characters.

Games of the ATB variety, like FFIV, are pseudo-turn-based in the sense that in a monster-versus-party battle, the participants on either team can only act one at a time even if they don't have to wait for the other team to move. I can't order Cecil to attack at the same time as Kain in FFIV, for example. Even if Kain is berserk and won't listen to commands, he can't act while Cecil is selecting his move on "his turn." And even the monsters you fight can't all attack simultaneously either. The fact that each team can "take turns" regardless of how often the other team is taking them is what blurs the turn-based concept.

So FFXI and FFXIV are clearly not turn-based. If a Monk and Warrior are fighting (each other or a mob, it doesn't matter), there's no point where it's "the Monk's turn" and the Warrior has to wait for that turn to end before she can do anything or even some things. Everyone acts completely independent of what anyone else is doing. Since there's no concept of "it's your turn" in FFXI and FFXIV combat, it can't possibly be turn-based.
#18 Jul 08 2013 at 6:43 PM Rating: Good
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I've only played 1 MMO that used turn-based combat... and that was in the days of dialup, so it was probably as much to account for unreasonable latency as it was a design choice.

I'm not sure why anyone would expect FFXIV to use turn-based combat.
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#19 Jul 08 2013 at 6:47 PM Rating: Default
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You have to wonder why Ito isn't working on Final Fantasy anymore considering he directed 6 and 9 which are my favorites.

Maybe he doesn't want to...? I don't know. The heck Square.

Wow. Nope. Ito says he would work on another Final Fantasy game but he hasn't been asked. Jesus. lol

Edited, Jul 8th 2013 8:48pm by Killua125
#20 Jul 08 2013 at 6:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
You have to wonder why Ito isn't working on Final Fantasy anymore considering he directed 6 and 9 which are my favorites.

Maybe he doesn't want to...? I don't know. The heck Square.


For once we agree on something. I would rather see a remake of 9 before 7 any day Smiley: thumbsup
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#21 Jul 08 2013 at 6:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:
I'd argue a global cooldown imposes a turn limit for the duration of its activity, but hey, the guy wants to deprive himself of entertainment.

Part of why the old games were turn-based was because of system limitations. Even more action-y pseudo-fighter RPGs like the Tales started off as side-scrollers before jumping into 3D planes for combat, kind of like how Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter was before 3D arenas became more of a thing, too.

Suppose this just leads me to the old argument that real RPG fans don't care about stuff like graphics or game mechanics as long as there's a good story. I don't quite agree, as eyesores and terrible combat do turn me off, but I guess as someone who grew up on FF1 and earlier, I'm more tolerant of "dated" gameplay. And ultimately, this rejection sounds like it's coming from someone under the age of 18.


Just because gameplay is more modern doesn't necessarily mean it's better... give me a dated game with an awesome story and "dated" battle system any day over a button smasher with flashy graphics that has a crap story...

Unfortunately, recently more often than not game developers don't see it like this...

Edited, Jul 8th 2013 9:00pm by ClydesShadow
#22 Jul 08 2013 at 7:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Too bad they couldn't get Ito to help with ARR's combat system. He created the ATB system and the job change system to begin with. He seems like he has a very good idea of what makes battle systems FUN. He designed Tactics' battle system too. I wonder how in the world he isn't getting work if he wants to be involved with FF again.

Wint wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
You have to wonder why Ito isn't working on Final Fantasy anymore considering he directed 6 and 9 which are my favorites.

Maybe he doesn't want to...? I don't know. The heck Square.


For once we agree on something. I would rather see a remake of 9 before 7 any day Smiley: thumbsup


6 and 9 are my favorites but I think 7 would benefit the most from a remake... if that makes sense.

Edited, Jul 8th 2013 9:13pm by Killua125
#23 Jul 08 2013 at 7:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
Wow. Nope. Ito says he would work on another Final Fantasy game but he hasn't been asked.


There is no palm large enough to be applied to the face of the gaming industry on this one...
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#24 Jul 08 2013 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
Too bad they couldn't get Ito to help with ARR's combat system. He created the ATB system and the job change system to begin with. He seems like he has a very good idea of what makes battle systems FUN. He designed Tactics' battle system too. I wonder how in the world he isn't getting work if he wants to be involved with FF again.

Edited, Jul 8th 2013 9:11pm by Killua125


He did do a good job with those... they're also WAAAAAAY too slow for an MMO. Work great for single-player RPGs though.
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#25 Jul 08 2013 at 7:15 PM Rating: Decent
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He also directed and created the battle system for Final Fantasy XII which basically seems like an MMORPG battle system.

I wasn't proposing that he make it exactly like IX and VI? I'm sure he's perfectly capable of making a battle system that would work for an MMO

Edited, Jul 8th 2013 9:16pm by Killua125
#26 Jul 08 2013 at 7:21 PM Rating: Decent
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He did not make the XI combat system. He actually consulted with Matsui during the ADB implementation.
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